Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Feb 8, 2013 - 07:08pm PT
Does God Create Unbelief?
If God alone is responsible for the salvation of the elect, does that mean He creates unbelief in those he didn’t elect? Does God sin?

http://www.ligonier.org/rym/broadcasts/audio/does-god-create-unbelief1/
jstan

climber
Feb 8, 2013 - 07:09pm PT
Perhaps we deal with the individual rather than the issue, because we think the individual will be the easier.

The data, on all sides of us, suggest we have it backwards.

This whole area of religion is very easily handled.

Klimmer:
John you should buy this car. Because I think it is good.

John:
Klimmer, what mileage does it get?

Klimmer:
I dunno.

John:
Then why do you think it is good?

Klimmer:
I dunno.

edit:
In the meantime, Lawrence Krauss is on Real Time with Maher tonight.

For the first time in 30 years, I regret not having a TV. What time and on what channel?

I got it. 10PM HBO

moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Feb 8, 2013 - 07:20pm PT


HBO
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Feb 8, 2013 - 07:43pm PT
...Comfort comes at a price - Bill Maher...

Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

...Yep, you don't have to turn to God and be with Him if you don't want to, God will give you what you want!
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Feb 8, 2013 - 07:54pm PT
God will give you what you want!

I really, really, need good health. Do you have god's email address handy?
jogill

climber
Colorado
Feb 8, 2013 - 09:17pm PT
jogill says; -- "Now back to this crap."
Ho mannnn .... Now what would the Duck say about this?

Four Duckies: Offspring of WB Duck
Four Duckies: Offspring of WB Duck
Credit: jogill

What's that, Daddy ?













moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Feb 8, 2013 - 09:30pm PT
^^^^^ LOL!!!
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Feb 8, 2013 - 10:13pm PT
Satan, Society, and the Savior — II
Matthew 8
God can change a willing heart. But what about hearts that are UNwilling to change? Pastor Greg Laurie points out no one is beyond the reach of our merciful God.

http://www.harvest.org/radio/listen/2013-02-08.html
NoTokeRedKneck

climber
Feb 8, 2013 - 10:24pm PT
Allah (Arabic) = Jehovah or Yahweh (Hebrew) = the God of Moses = The God of Abraham.

Correct me if im wrong. The teragrammaton is not Jehovah though Jehovah
the name does precede the Witnesses and is found I think with 1 reference
in the Old Testament. Notice Hebrew Jews are forbidden of usage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton

A problem with Jehovah is the name could be Jihivi, Jeheve etc. and its
incorrectly used by the Witnesses a 1000 times over in their new testament.
WBraun

climber
Feb 8, 2013 - 10:33pm PT
LOL jogill

More ducks.

The names are transcendental sound vibrations.

Not any name vibration will work.

The transcendental name sound vibration is the personal feature.

Allah is impersonal and the names are the personal features.

There is only one God period but he manifests in innumerable forms according to time, circumstance and pastimes.

The gross materialists are completely bewildered by all this ......
MH2

climber
Feb 8, 2013 - 11:01pm PT



non-smoker



BooYah

Social climber
Ely, Nv
Feb 8, 2013 - 11:11pm PT
Muscovy. I like ducks.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 8, 2013 - 11:11pm PT








go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Feb 9, 2013 - 12:28am PT
WB & YOSAR can save the day!

photo not found
Missing photo ID#288784

JESUS SAVES FOR ETURNITY!

Cheers!
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Feb 9, 2013 - 11:06am PT
ETeRNITY! This APP Just gets you to Heaven!
^^^ vvv


Matthew 9:12 When Jesus heard that, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

Hosea 6:6 For I desire mercy and not sacrifice,
And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind.”
40 Then some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these words, and said to Him, “Are we blind also?”
41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’ Therefore your sin remains.

Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Luke 24:46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.



Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 9, 2013 - 11:31am PT
Go -be, what do you make of this?

How Secular Humanists Develop Ethics
Posted: 02/08/2013 10:13 am
Read more
Cetaceans , Dopamine , Ehtics , Ethical , Humanism , Ethics , Morals , Primates , Reason , Secular Humanism , Theist , Tribalism , Canada News

How do Secular Humanists develop their ethics? This is the most consistently repeated question about Secular Humanism. Theists, in particular, have difficulty with the notion that ethics need not come from a set of rules laid down in an ancient book. Even Secular Humanists, put on the spot, have some difficulty giving a clear and convincing answer. Often they are stuck saying, "Well, we just are moral."

Secular Humanists actually develop ethics using three characteristics of human beings: a kind of ethical tripod, if you will.

The first of these characteristics is a trait that evolved in all vertebrate species, a long time ago. When primates do something positive for fellow primates, their brains get a little charge of dopamine. Apparently, this happens in all vertebrates, but for some reason seems more pronounced in primates. This chemical gives pleasure so ancient human ancestors tended to do positive things for each other because of this reward even though they did not understand it. Modern neurological research supports this idea in both human and non-human primates.

The effect of this trait for human beings is that they are social, preferring to work positively with others and to co-operate in positive social ways.

The second of these characteristics, tribalism, is also an evolved trait. It, too, is present throughout the primate family, although it seems somewhat diminished in bonobos. Tribalism is the tendency to form small groups or sets of primates that co-operate with members of the same tribe, but not so much with other tribes

Tribalism seems to be the result of finite limits to food resources for foragers and hunter-gatherers. Without the science of cultivation to enhance food production, ancient human ancestors needed a minimum area for foraging and, later hunter-gathering. This, combined with relatively limited ability to travel long distances, also tended to isolate social groups geographically. This tribalism continues in modern ape species. Chimpanzees, for example, are very tribal with well establish territories. Their tribes often get into serious conflict along the borders of adjoining territories. Sound familiar?

This trait, then, in its extreme form, is a negative characteristic that can cause real conflict between different tribes. In the modern world, human beings use different terms for tribes-nations, churches, clubs, and so on, but these entities retain most of the characteristics of tribes.

There are, then, two seemingly opposing instincts: dopamine addiction and tribalism. How can Secular Humanists claim to develop ethics or moral codes from that teeter-totter?

Enter the third, predominantly human, characteristic, reason. Human beings have the most highly developed ability to reason on the planet (until cetaceans mount a good lobby group). Sophisticated human language skills, including the tendency to think in word form as well as communicate with each other give human beings considerable control over the first two traits.

This third characteristic allows human beings to balance the two other characteristics. Yes, balance is necessary. One might think that human beings would be better off abandoning tribalism completely.

However, without it, dopamine pursuit would lead to gullibility and make human beings very vulnerable. Pulling a thorn out of a lion's paw is a noble idea, but in a purely dopamine-driven psychology very dangerous without the due caution one would need to pull it off -- sorry out.

Controlled tribalism serves a purpose. It makes human beings sufficiently wary of unknown people and circumstances to reduce their vulnerability. This is the basis of the street smarts that help a child resist helping the stranger to look for the puppy.

When reason fails, either dopamine pursuit or tribalism takes over. The result is that human beings become either victims or predators and ethics go out the window. That is essentially what happens if tribalism is strong enough to give someone a dopamine response from following a dogma without the balance of reason.

Secular Humanists use reason to develop ethical guidelines balancing the dopamine reflex and tribalism to make moral decisions. This isn't necessarily easy and not always successful, but the technique works at least as well as the technique of following a fixed set of rules set down in the past, often with tribalism as the predominant consideration.

Secular Humanists do not rely on a dogma-based answer to an ethical question, but will take time to apply reason to make the best possible decision under the circumstances present.


I think its worth pointing out that many institutional faiths have a history of evolving their belief structure and their ethical code under pressure of societal change and new knowledge, which is directly a result of reason. Certainty is in fact less certain than we are led to believe it seems. However perhaps humanists put a greater degree of "faith" in reason while theists put the least amount of "faith" in reason - in fact avoiding it all together unless forced at a metaphorical or otherwise gun point.

An example is the dumping of polygamy by the Mormons under threat of extermination by the US government. They of course called it devine prophesy not reason, but the timing was strangely fortuitous.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Feb 9, 2013 - 11:41am PT
re: supply-side economics, climate change, national security, everything

Bill Maher to Lawrence Krauss,
"Doc, help me out with the idea... what goes on in people's minds that they will not accept evidence."

Lawrence Krauss to Bill Maher,
"If we just had public policy based on empirical evidence, the world would be a better place."

Maybe even more unified as well.

.....

Of course this statement by Krauss reminded me of a lot here...
"It's really a shame when nonsense can substitute for fact with impunity."

Quack (cough), quack.
WBraun

climber
Feb 9, 2013 - 12:05pm PT
LOL hahahah

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Feb 9, 2013 - 12:29pm PT
Of course. You're preaching to the choir.

If you could watch the piece, you'd note that this quote by Krauss was given after mention of the Republican side ONCE AGAIN - incredibly - embracing (a) Reagan's supply side economics on faith; and (b) recent policy making denying human caused climate change.

Context is important. Whether it's on Real Time or here on this site.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 9, 2013 - 12:35pm PT
That process of seeking broad opinion, done in good faith, means that all voices are heard...

This is fair and ethical, but "hearing" and "ascribing value" are completely different. The only reason to give any weight to an argument that does not withstand an analysis based on reason and our best understanding of reality is pure diplomacy, which makes logic subservient to political power ... which is unethical.
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