Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 11461 - 11480 of total 22990 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Dec 5, 2012 - 08:29pm PT
I wouldn’t liken the FLDS and their practice of polygamy to LDS practice of polygamy in the nineteenth century, myself., Mr Kay.

You’re correct…the members who were excommunicated from the LDS church and established the FLDS sect were indeed cited for practicing polygamy against church dictates.

However the institution’s permutation and reversal of other important doctrines make it far removed from the LDS. One critical variance was annulling the power of ruling council and ceding it to one man rule.

Though the LDS have one prophet/president…the Council of Twelve and Quarom of the Seventy must approve policy and doctrinal consistency. The FLDS dictatorial dynasty has introduced many un-LDS concepts and practices to their faith…most controversial ones by Warren Jeffs.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Dec 5, 2012 - 08:38pm PT
Some have alleged quotes of Brigham Young and Joseph Smith claiming polygamy was mandated for exaltation. The church regards these as spurious quotes. Many early Mormons (including leaders) did not practice polygamy including several on the Council of Twelve and Quarom of the Seventy.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 5, 2012 - 08:56pm PT
bruce
i admit i have problems keeping upwith ur guys typing speed.
i only wish we could have face to face dialog.. But this has helped me tremendously with the "worldly" ways of interaction. In putting MY
understandings to print.SoThanks!

65% divorce rate. I read on NYTimes,or Rueters or something reputeable,
that between 1996-2009 in the US considering ALL mariages. that 62% ended
in divorce. Fact? im not certain.

i do feel certain the reason for the breakdown in family values is brought about from a surge of independance, and the lust for money. which was handed to us from the huge prosperity of America through the 70s &80s

Marriage isnt a vow of honor anymore. Its a buisness agreement.
this is why im oposed to "same sex marriage" im not a homophobe. i dont care what they do in the bedroom. and if they dont want to follow christian
moroles thats their choice.
BUT I WILL NOT USE THE SAME "TERM", "TITLE" (MARRIAGE) TO DESCRIBE THE JOINING OF TWO MEN AND THAT OF THE JOINING OF A MAN AND WOMEN!

Its that easily justifyable to the public!
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 5, 2012 - 08:58pm PT
Jennie - keep it coming. Was this edit a result of revelation?

1890 Manifesto banning plural marriage

Main article: 1890 Manifesto
The final element in President Woodruff's revelatory experience came on the evening of September 23, 1890. The following morning, he reported to some of the General Authorities that he had struggled throughout the night with the Lord regarding the path that should be pursued. The result was a 510-word handwritten manuscript which stated his intentions to comply with the law and denied that the church continued to solemnize or condone plural marriages. The document was later edited by George Q. Cannon of the First Presidency and others to its present 356 words. On October 6, 1890, it was presented to the Latter-day Saints at the General Conference and approved.
While many church leaders in 1890 regarded the Manifesto as inspired, there were differences among them about its scope and permanence. Some leaders were reluctant to terminate a long-standing practice that was regarded as divinely mandated. As a result, over 200 plural marriages were performed between 1890 and 1904.[47]


It does appear that the change in doctrine was a pragmatic reaction to conflict with the US government law. Is there ever any mention specifically why the church laws would change? I'm fishing for moral meaning here. Thats a pretty big deal going monogamous so I would assume in the 500 word manifesto it would detail reasons other than just the dictate of god.


Donald - sorry to upset you so there bud but your man lost and its time you let it go.
Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Dec 5, 2012 - 09:13pm PT
Donald - sorry to upset you so there bud but your man lost and its time you let it go.

I' m not upset , nor am I grousing about 'losing' a particular election . I am illustrating the egregious hypocrisy that passes for political, cultural discourse; and a rather transparent anti-religious bigotry on the Progressive Left that is currently forming a type of new conformity in contemporary American culture.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 5, 2012 - 09:18pm PT
So by your standard any amount of challenge or criticism equals bigotry?

Sure there's some abrasive invective getting hurled around like mud pies but what exactly did you expect here? tea with the queen? You're no wilting violet yourself you know.

Why can't we just knock ideas around? Whats the difference between warren Jeffs and your average cart and horse Amish? There is a difference, at least I hope so because I sure don't think much of that warren Jeffs guy
Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Dec 5, 2012 - 09:33pm PT
So by your standard any amount of challenge or criticism equals bigotry?

Nope. Bigotry equals bigotry.
Again , this is not reflective of your particular personal comments on this subject ,but rather the general tone of the relatively nouveau liberal mentality as regards religion and spirituality.
I detect a level of intolerance and bigotry- ironically by those who usually endeavor to portray themselves and their ilk as imminently tolerant , libertine , inclusive , and accommodating to all viewpoints and lifestyles.
Apparently this warm ,fuzzy ,and approving attitude is only reserved for groups and individuals that agree with the Left's political and cultural agenda vis a vis the ever watchful eye of the mass circulation media.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Dec 5, 2012 - 09:39pm PT
Is there ever any mention specifically why the church laws would change?


Bruce, I believe an LDS doctrinarian would tell you that polygamy is approved in certain cases but in most eras has been contrary to the wishes of God.

The idea of polygamy grates on my sensibilities…but I suspect the rationale for allowing it would be numerous offspring from one dynasty or genre. But practicality would end that justification at some point down the lineage.

Polygamy was forbidden in the Book of Mormon:

Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;

But in Doctrine and Covenants:

Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Dec 5, 2012 - 09:42pm PT
. The Amish are as appalled by your insane world as you are of his lack of modern conformity to your own ways of thinking and behavior

Cults and religions that isolate themselves are a dead end unto themselves.
If you have been around Hutterite and Mennonite Colonies you know that most Colonies are all related - and that the genetics and phenotypical expression of their DNA is often grotesque in its similarity. Even a cursory understading of genetics will help you understand that this is very bad.

On the same note this is why racism and race purity is its own dead end - racists, hillbillies and Okies that were not that bright in the first place have racked up so many bad genes after a few generations of pure breeding that they are hardly even able to adapt to even the simplest changes anymore.

Genetic isolation and lack of diversity in genes or skills is always a recipe for death for any species or population in any niche.
I'm always amazed at the authoritarian mind - one life given to be free and experience and experiment and they chose to do exactly what they are told.....what a waste....but it has to be behavior left over ...it's just animal instincts...not any more controllable than the spring rut in a group on Rams.

My Mayan Guide in Tikal was very well read and highly intellegent. All these ignorant white folks from America were asking about the Mayan Calendar - he was explaining the short count and the long count and how the calendars actually worked. And then added that of course no one, including the Mayans, can tell the future....It went over the heads of half the of the horoscope following superstitious Americans that were listening.
He was a direct decendent of Mayans and the incredible intellegence of his dead civilization was apparent in this man - I am sure his ancient ancestors were the ones saying " we really should be conserving, and maybe not cutting down every single tree in the jungle, and finding alternate soil sources," while the dipshits of the age babbled about traditions and increased the number of daily sacrifices....


Adapt or die......locking souls away in a cave in Big Cotten Wood Canyon isnt going to mean sh#t in the end..
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 5, 2012 - 09:42pm PT

the LDS church used polygamy to populate the church.simply.
Even Soloman, the wisest man in history. had 700 wives. and 300 conqubines.
And was proud of it. its different though for a church to have doctrine,
and then to change it. then denounce it. hyprocrites?
And what about not allowing Black people to become "members"because joe
smith deemed them "ungodly". refering to Genisis when God "marked" Cain
and booted him to the world citing "unworthyness".joe smith proclaimed
Cain was turned black skined.and the whole "black" lineage was unworthy.
until 1978, when the church was pressed on this doctrine.mostly because their colleges wanted to allow blacks into their sports programs.

Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Dec 5, 2012 - 09:45pm PT
On the same note this is why racism and race purity is its own dead end - racists, hillbillies and Okies that were not that bright in the first place have racked up so many bad genes after a few generations of pure breeding that they are hardly even able to adapt to even the simplest changes anymore.

There it is folks.

Your honor, I rest my case.

Sit back, relax, and let the abject ugliness of those sentiments soak in.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 5, 2012 - 09:50pm PT
i like you Bruce keep it com'in baby!

"sorry to upset you so there bud but your man lost and its time you let it go"

i think Obama is a "better" christian than Rumny..
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Dec 5, 2012 - 09:52pm PT
he LDS church used polygamy to populate the church.simply.
Even Soloman, the wisest man in history. had 700 wives. and 300 conqubines.
And was proud of it. its different though for a church to have doctrine,
and then to change it. then denounce it. hyprocrites?
And what about not allowing Black people to become "members"because joe
smith deemed them "ungodly". refering to Genisis when God "marked" Cain
and booted him to the world citing "unworthyness".joe smith proclaimed
Cain was turned black skined.and the whole "black" lineage was unworthy.
until 1978, when the church was pressed on this doctrine.mostly because their colleges wanted to allow blacks into their sports programs.



Black people were never denied membership in the LDS church, Blueblocr. They were denied ordination to the priesthood

And black athletes (A few) participated in sports at LDS colleges long before 1978.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 5, 2012 - 09:52pm PT
Nope. Bigotry equals bigotry.
Tit or Tat Donald. The whole reason i started yacking on this thread a couple of days ago centers on this point of moral one upsmanship. I propose that religion, some anyway and at this point in time cannot so surely claim the moral high ground. I also maintain that even if they can recognize this, they prefer to assume the high ground anyway just on some sort of grandfather clause of entitlement. you know -that tradition you were talking about. You mean to say that church goers are not prone to looking down their noses at the heathens?

Anyway If I could frame it with less vitriol I'd do it for the sake of getting you to discuss it. Problem is, just mentioning it raises some hackles to which I say join the club. We've been called less moral for centuries.
Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Dec 5, 2012 - 09:59pm PT
Anyway If I could frame it with less vitriol I'd do it for the sake of getting you to discuss it. Problem is, just mentioning it raises some hackles to which I sat join the club. We've been called less moral for centuries.

Quit complaining Mr. Kay, you've gotten more attention than any normal Liberal proletariat has gotten in quite some time on this thread.
Relax and let the egregious horror of Mr. Whitey Rina's comments take you to a new and hitherto unclaimed territory of progressive discovery and self-actualization.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 5, 2012 - 10:06pm PT
Quit complaining Mr. Kay, you've gotten more attention than any normal Liberal proletariat has gotten in quite some time on this thread.


HaHA! you're funny. OK mr smug and superior I'll go back to my corner content that I got to play with the big boys.

You havn't mentioned your faith but I'll just take a wild guess at.....

Prosperity Church!


BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 5, 2012 - 10:14pm PT
Bruce
" You mean to say that church goers are not prone to looking down their noses at the heathens?"

Christians understand we are all heathens. the ones that are forgiven
look down at the sin, not the sinner. only Wannabe christians point at you for the sin. see the difference?



Jennie
i was ordained into the priesthood after only a couple visits to an LDS church.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Dec 5, 2012 - 10:19pm PT
Jennie said:

. Polygamy was forbidden in the Book of Mormon:

Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none


You have written a falsehood my deceitful Jennie - and you did it on purpose by only including a partial quote.

The Mormon Bible goes on to say in the same paragraph that polygamy was ok if commanded by God - which of course Brigam Young and every other psychopath Apostle received all to easily....LOL

The only reason that paragraph is included is because these sick men wanted to keep all the goodies for themselves..

. LDS reasons for allowingpolygamy As early as the publication of the Book of Mormon in 1830, LDSdoctrinemaintained that polygamywas allowable so long as it was commanded by God. The Book of Jacob condemned polygamy as adultery, [53]

but left open the provisothat "For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise, theyshall hearken untothese things." [54] Thus, the LDSChurch todayteaches that plural marriage can only be practiced when specifically authorized by God. According to this view, the 1890 Manifesto and/or 1904 Manifesto rescinded God's prior authorization given to Joseph Smith.
However, Bruce R. McConkie stated in his controversial 1958 book, Mormon Doctrine, that God will "obviously" re-institute the practice of polygamy after the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. [55] This echoes earlier teachings by Brigham Youngthat the primary purpose of polygamy was to bring about the Millennium. [56] Current officialchurchteachingmaterials donot make anymention ofthe future re-institution of plural marriage.



No study of Mormon polygamy is complete without some study on this guy - the great great grand father of Romney

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parley_P._Pratt

Or Pratt's brother
This sick f*#k

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orson_Pratt





Ya baby - how would ya like your 16 year old daughter to be getting plowed by this ole pervert...


. Orson Pratt was married to ten women. At age 57Prattmarried a sixteen year old girl, his tenth wife Margaret Graham,youngerthan his daughterCelestia, causing his first wife Sarah, an outspoken critic of polygamy, to lash out in an 1877 interview, “ Here was my husband,grayheaded,takingtohis bedyoung girls inmockeryof marriage. Of course there couldbe nojoyforhim insuchan intercourse exceptforthe indulgence of his fanaticism and of somethingelse,perhaps,whichI hesitate to mention. [7] ”

Pratt and all of his wives and children struggled with poverty. [8]

1842 polygamy scandal and relationship with Sarah

Someone was nice enough to finally kill this pedophile..




I give you.....the founders of the Mormon Church and your Apostles!



Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Dec 5, 2012 - 10:20pm PT
You havn't mentioned your faith but I'll just take a wild guess at.....

Agnostic. Although I have hypothesized an unorthodox God. I am working on the details.

I am opposed to crowing jackaknapes when I detect them. I have criticized religious bigots when I have encountered them.

Now you can go to bed, certain that the corporeal world is safe from jackaknapery.

LOL.

Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Dec 5, 2012 - 10:20pm PT
Jennie
i was ordained into the priesthood after only a couple visits to an LDS church.

That doesn't happen Blue...you're not even given baptism after two visits.
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