Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 11401 - 11420 of total 22842 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Feb 7, 2013 - 05:30pm PT
Now the duck is going after the dog.

I smell blood...
Getch

Mountain climber
Flagstaff, AZ
Feb 7, 2013 - 07:04pm PT
spider:

there being other possible causes of an outcome is even more evidence of the lack of freedom of will.

Science could not answer the question "does more expensive booze lead to fewer deaths", at least not in the united states. it was be unethical to determine this experimentally. But that does not mean that a descriptive survey of booze prices correlated with booze deaths is without merit. It means it should be replicated in more areas. I bet many people who read that article came up with many reasons why the study is wrong. I also bet that nobody here can explain how one could determine if the alternate hypotheses were true. go ahead... :)

Here is a shocker: Scientists have never proven to modern rigours, that smoking causes cancer. The article on point was merely a collection of studies like the booze one, conducted over decades, across cultures, ages, etc. It suggests strongly, but does not prove.

So can science prove or disprove free will? It can describe other, more plausible, explanations. It can also disprove an assertation to the positive, like "we are able to make decisions by our own will", that's easy. Show the influence of anything on behaviour that is external to the person and that is the end of the free will argument. Advertising works.

My favourite explanation of this is to ask someone yelling about how stupid drug addict must be (usually cops in my job) and ask them why they aren't superman. If you were able to guide your destiny with merely your will, why wouldn't you be superman? Better yet, why wouldn't you be god?

Believing in free will is requires that the only reason anybody isn't all powerful is because nobody has chose to be so. And that's dumb.
Dick_Lugar

Trad climber
Casper the Friendly Ghost Town!
Feb 7, 2013 - 07:05pm PT
12999...
Dick_Lugar

Trad climber
Casper the Friendly Ghost Town!
Feb 7, 2013 - 07:06pm PT
13000! Woo Hoo...I've finally reached a milestone in my life! I can die now...
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2013 - 07:07pm PT
"Lizard Skin" <br/>
South America
"Lizard Skin"
South America
Credit: Dr. F.

UNTIL YOU SHOW US AN HIGHER ALIEN LIFE FORM
or a spirit/god/deva/etc./higher

You are just speculating..

Do you not know the defintion of the Word "Speculation, speculating, speculate"

You can't just say that the probability is high, and leave at that, you need real actual proof.
Otherwise you are speculating
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Feb 7, 2013 - 07:16pm PT
Dr. F.
Sure, I speculate, but it is not that far-fetched.

Or maybe I just like Sagan's sci-fi ;)

I find it very stimulating to let my mind go wild once a while.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Feb 7, 2013 - 07:20pm PT
"My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me. If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own."—John 7:16


Man’s Radical Falleness
How far did man fall in the Garden? How has sin penetrated into our souls? Learn what Jesus Himself had to say about sin’s effects.

http://www.ligonier.org/rym/broadcasts/audio/mans-radical-falleness1/
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2013 - 07:21pm PT
Moosey
I have no problem with speculation

We just need to acknowledge when we are doing it
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Feb 7, 2013 - 08:03pm PT
Common ground:

photo not found
Missing photo ID#288575
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Feb 7, 2013 - 08:27pm PT
WBraun

climber
Feb 7, 2013 - 08:45pm PT
We just need to acknowledge when we are doing it


You're doing it alright and projecting heavily on top of it.

You wouldn't recognize a higher being if they stepped on your head.

They don't reveal themselves to your limited speculations and projections that you put on them.

They are as they are not how you think they are ......
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Feb 7, 2013 - 08:54pm PT
You wouldn't recognize a higher being if they stepped on your head.

Did somebody step on your head poor ducky? Was that being taller than you?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 7, 2013 - 09:00pm PT
as i have mentioned before, it would really be rather nice and cozy if the so-called 'conventional' views of American society really were true to reality

and i sincerely wish some of these conventional viewpoints within which i was raised as a child were true...whether religious or scientific or even traditional mythologies

unfortunately there are insurmountable problems with these sorts of conventional viewpoints, whether theistic or scientific or atheistic based

IMHO these conventional viewpoints are only marginally distinguishable from the beliefs in some obscure village where the norm is worshiping clay idols

there is far too much actual hard repeatable observable data that just doesn't support such views

fanatical disinformation and falsification campaigns by officially sanctioned authorities doesn't change this

it is only possible to maintain one of our conventional accepted viewpoints by remaining myopic within a narrow carefully-controlled society, while ignoring immense amounts of contrary information

even the most carefully peer-reviewed and sanctioned scientific levels of understanding blow away such conventional views of reality

and the obsession by officially sanctioned authorities to label immense amounts of information as top secret does not bode well for supporting such conventional views of reality

what are they really trying to hide??

perhaps they are merely trying to obscure crimes such as Federal Reserve Board fraud, election fraud, fraudulent tax levies, banking fraud, stock market manipulation, discreditable military secrets, intelligence agency torture and sanctioning, military/industrial acquisitions and contracts fraud, inconvenient scientific research results, and the like

personally i believe most all of that, while discreditable, is just obfuscation of what is really being obsessively hidden

it is interesting and worthwhile in a forum such as this, to discuss the extent and limits of what we can observe

however assuming that we understand the basic nature of reality from our limited extent of knowledge, to the exclusion of the opinions of others, and obsessively defending one or another of these conventional viewpoints is just childish

spend more time listening and less time defending

we have much to learn

BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 7, 2013 - 09:01pm PT
Have you ever been around Werner in person? I haven't for 25 years, and even then I was a nobody, but somebody always asked where he was headed in the morning when he took off in his convertible (that didn't have a roof), maroon land ship car.

He always said, "I'm going to solo the Gripper."

I remember one time when I was just standing around in the C4 parking lot, and Werner was eating this big bowl of raw spinach. He turns around and says, "Eat your spinach and you can be an Astroman too."

Pretty funny. Never a mean guy. He is just yanking our chains. Kinda like that poor fellow who just popped onto this thread and asked if any of us knew who Sam Harris was. HFCS asked if he was a climber.

Boy, this thread has wandered off in all sorts of deeper directions than what I encounter in my daily life. It is easy to troll, though. It is amazing how civil it is. Everyone thinks before they say anything.

Then go rent a movie like "Twister." It requires the mind of a two year old child to understand. Almost all communication that we humans receive from each other is so dumbed down. It has always been that way.

It is easy to prey on the ignorance of others. We see it happening all around us every day.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 7, 2013 - 09:13pm PT
They don't reveal themselves to your limited speculations and projections that you put on them.

They are as they are not how you think they are ......


Werner, some of our friends never got over their childhood experience of avoiding stepping on a worm on the sidewalk, and then noticing the worm didn't properly appreciate the honor of being spared in the presence of a vastly superior intellect


And the worm, not having observed the child, has no reason to believe in children, and thus feels safe in denying their existence...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 7, 2013 - 09:36pm PT
Stop yourselves.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2013 - 10:09pm PT
They are as they are not how you think they are ......
WB


I met Werner a couple times in C4
someone would say "Werner, this is Dr. F"
and he still has No idea who I am either

There are many of us
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Feb 7, 2013 - 10:37pm PT
To be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment.”
-Ralph Waldo Emerson quote



MH2

climber
Feb 7, 2013 - 10:45pm PT
To be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment.”


So don't listen.


Better yet, don't hear.


Word is that Werner is a very good judge of character.



edit:

Maybe judging character and mind are different, Dr F. I would trust WB's judgement but not necessarily what he says, here.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2013 - 10:47pm PT
Yes Werner, the one who said that Donald Thompson had a good mind

Should I find the quote?
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