Void and infinity are really the most interesting concepts here and i hope to fiddle with these soon
Well, that should be entertaining. Perhaps you can flesh out these concepts in an experiential manner that will add zest to essential singularities, so that working with them I will somehow "feel" their energies. Good luck.
;>)
Actually John, people have been working on these experientially for centuries. They have not been trying to do science, which is a common misconception, nor have they been trying to "feel" anything in particular.
It's a strange thing that limbic (emotional) activity is accorded so much weight by some of our scientific bros, like Craig with his "fuzzy feelings."
We all experience void and nothingness/infinity every second of ever day. Try and find the edges of your awareness, or the beginning of a thought, or where any of it goes, or the milieu in which is all arrives. It is instructional to admit that all science small and great arises in our mind and nowhere else, and it is only through experience that we have access to it at all. The idea that what we are talking about "out there" does not have a mental and experiential correlate is a very strange concept, bordering on the fantastic.
And Craig, the "trance" I speak of can be looked at this way. You're awareness, if you observe it closely, vascillates between narrow and open focus. When you are quantifying and evaluating or focused on a task like a hard lead or a sonnet or a math problem, requiring narrow focus and concentration, this happens at the exclusion of a large part of what else is going on. You can call this being locked in, or "trancing" on a particular person, place of thing. Meaning discursive narrow focusing will make some things know at the exclusion of others. Whatever you are narrow focusing on will be real to you, and to some extent, nothing else will exist.
When you keep an open focus, steadily and for long enough, seeking no thing, the void starts presenting itself, not as a thing, but as the fundamental nature of "mind," totally devoid of content, ego, self, et al.
Just note how the discursive mind will scramble to try and make this "no-mind" into a thing, a function with qualities, an emergent cognitive phenomenon, the brain idling, etc. That's because the discursive mind hates a vacuum (open focus). The "trance" from the experiential end of things is when the awareness gets fused with things - thoughts, feelings, memories - seeing only tress, not the forest, and as mentioned, puts all it's virtue on wood, yelling, "What forest?" It's not "there" at all.
When you keep an open focus, steadily and for long enough, seeking no thing, the void starts presenting itself, not as a thing, but as the fundamental nature of "mind," totally devoid of content, ego, self, et al.
I never said that this state is not an admirable goal, and it gives the individual some nice warm fuzzy feelings, which are a good thing.
But to imply that all the knowledge we have accumulated through the scientific method is somehow irrelevant because it doesn't jive with your extra wide vision that you have experienced, of a different reality beyond the mind, but inside the mind.
is unacceptable to me
Maybe you need to start dealing with the here and now, and grow some plants that rely on YOU to allow them to live, and see if it's all a trance or not
Credit: Dr. F.
This plant confirms my reality
Maybe some people have forgot about the rest of us, how we experience reality, and how it seems to Match the objective reality quite well
I couldn't understand the video either, Werner, except that it concerned theory and data about the origin of the universe. Back in the 70s, soon after the discovery of a microwave signal coming from all directions in space, a calculation was made of what the spectrum of this signal would look like if it were a leftover from the Big Bang. Good data to compare to the calculation wasn't available for another 30 years. In the video they show a plot of the data compared to the calculation. It's an excellent fit and gives physicists confidence that the physics they based the calculation on is valid, not just in the labs where the experiments were done, but throughout the universe.
Dr.F - Maybe you need to start dealing with the here and now...!
I found myself in a situation where I needed to do just that ... deal with the "here and now" or, to take a VERY close look at WHAT had gotten me to where I was at that moment...
I got myself into a very bad situation one time and I new i was dying (literally on my death bed). I don't have the time to tell the story right now, but it was not a result of something that I did, it was on account of something that I didn't do. Anyway, I did NOT want to die, i was only 36 (not that i feel any differently about dying 25 years later/now). So, I prayed and asked the Lord if that was it (if He had made up His mind) or would He give me another chance.
If He had come to that conclusion (that i was going to die) I most definitely would have been dead within minutes, in fact, I was already in the process of dying (had slipped into the void, but came back) several times in the previous moments. So, I asked Him in that prayer to do something (i new He could). I asked Him to show me three (3) times in the bible some verse that I would randomly turn to that would either say I was going to live or die (could i get another chance).
So I picked up my bible, closed my eyes, and let the pages filter through my fingers until I got to the New Testament (for no particular reason) and I put my index finger on the middle of a page that I had randomly turned to and then opened my eyes. The very verse that was RIGHT above my finger nail was this ...
"You shall surely die."
I kid you not!! My finger nail was squarely under and barely touching the bottom of the letters "l" & "s" (between 'shall surely'). Believe me when I say that it shook me up/got my undivided attention. If I had any doubts of what I had gotten myself into, that i could somehow sweet talk or pray my way out of it, those hopes were suddenly looking a bit more serious.
But, I still had two (2) more shots at it, and I was NOT thoroughly convinced that I was being dealt with (by God) that harshly (i underestimated both what I had done, and Him/how serious He took it). So, after a mumbled prayer, I once again closed my eyes and this time (didn't want to be anywhere near that verse again) thumbed through the pages until I got to the middle of the Old Testament somewhere. I then did the same thing (put my fingernail in the middle of a page and then opened my eyes). Here is what was, once again, DIRECTLY above my fingernail ...
"You shall surely die."
I didn't think/know that this exact verse was even in the bible twice, let alone in the Old Testament (i new it was in the NT). Well, if He hadn't gotten 100% of my attention after the first time by turning to that verse, my understanding of how serious a situation I had gotten myself into and what it meant to Him, He certainly did then!!!
Think about it ... ! My bible had over 1600 pages in it. Four (4) words (You shall surely die)! That verse is only in the bible a couple of times (maybe only twice?) what are the chances of opening to that verse once, let alone twice, how likely would that be/could happen. First time could possibly be coincidence, but the second time?!?! You could probably, randomly open your bible all day long (or all week) and not even come up with that verse even once (try it), let alone twice in a row! Believe me when i say that I got on my knees and poured my heart out, prayed for another chance, and asked for forgiveness!
I then closed my eyes once again and did the same thing a third time. IF, I had somehow randomly turned to that verse again, I new 100% that it would be final (i was deathly ill). But it read something to the effect of how much He loved us and would forgive us (i can't remember the verse # right now/would have to look it up). Seriously, that is exactly what it said (paraphrased). And, like I said, there is a LOT more to the story.
edit: i don't expect this to change anyone's mind. i'm not even sure why i shared it here. it is only part of one instance/situation where God intervened (there have been many in my life). and i'm sure you will either rationalize it, or right it off as a lie or something else ... wudevah!
btw, that is not something i, or any believer/pastor, etc. would recomend doing. only time i have (randomly put my finer...). but, i am certain that is what He wanted me to do in that one particular instance!
But to imply that all the knowledge we have accumulated through the scientific method is somehow irrelevant because it doesn't jive with your extra wide vision that you have experienced, of a different reality beyond the mind, but inside the mind.
is unacceptable to me
It's unacceptable to me as well.
I have no idea where you get your ideas, Craig, because they are never based on what I am saying. For instance, where did you get the idea I was saying that "all the knowledge we have accumulated through the scientific method is somehow irrelevant because it doesn't jive with your extra wide vision that you have experienced."
What kind of crackpot would ever say as much? That's nearly as silly as your obsession with a warm fuzzy feeling.
Go and watch those videos that John posted. When the man says that nothing is no longer nothing anymore, what do you think he means in experiential terms? Our minds are not functionally different than the universe. How would they be?
There is no such thing as a void (mind) in absolute terms. Even apparently empty space (raw awareness) is in fact a broiling bubbling brew of emerging particles (thoughts, feelings, memories, sensations, et al) that glitch in and out of existence in a time scale so short you cannot see them (unconscious processes).
This is where you can see that nothing is something and something is nothing. One of the oldest (over 2,000 years) Zen maxims is: Emptiness (nothing) is form (stuff), and form is emptiness, exactly.
Of course these correlations are not remotely exact, but it makes the videos into great thought experiments when you see or try and experientially verify what is said.
And there is no experiential correlate to the big bang as a one-time event - of that we may be sure.
James 3:13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. 16 For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. 17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. 18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
We all experience void and nothingness/infinity every second of ever day. Try and find the edges of your awareness, or the beginning of a thought, or where any of it goes, or the milieu in which is all arrives
Nice reply, JL. Thanks. I do believe there are aspects of "reality" that will always be beyond our abilities to resolve or even identify. Sometimes mathematics offers hints, allowing us to expand our awareness slightly, but to say that eventually scientists and philosophers will unravel these mysteries - again, even be aware of them - is like me trying to teach my Corgi, Jake, the rudiments of algebra: he is an earnest little fellow, anxious to please, but hasn't a clue. He does enjoy taking a ride in my crossover, however, and isn't perturbed by his lack of knowledge about the intricate machinery that supports his delight. It merely is. deus ex machina.
We are in a trance???
WTF??
Are you insane?
Every scientist, every non-believer, all of us are in some kind of crazy closed loop trance?
Well, in a manner of speaking, "yes" we probably are in a trance of a kind.
Which consciousness is the right consciousness or the most accurate consciousness? The one we experience when we are in deep sleep (no dreams)? The one we experience when we are in a sleep with dreams? The one we are in now (awake, no dreams)? The one we will be in when we die? Which one is the right one? Which one is not a trance?
When we are in deep sleep, various activities are afoot: digestion, breathing, heart beating, etc. The body is active, and so there must be some level of awareness there going on. Would that constitute a trance? Without consciousness, is our body in a trance?
When we are in sleep with dreams, the same physical activities are occuring as well as some level of consciousness. We have thoughts, ideas, feelings, and some sense of "me" in a dream. We may not be aware that we are in a dream, but there is a more conscious set of experiences that we can point to. Would that qualify as that a closed-loop trance?
When we are awake (right now, I'm assuming), to what extent are we fully consciously awake? Are we cognizant of every sensation captured by our body and nervous system, or do we selectively attend to the ones our body and mind think are important? If we were gripped by a thought or feeling (an attachment or an aversion), to what extent are we completely awake / conscious and NOT in a trance? I think Largo just described times that we experience a closing off of physical sensation when a feeling or a thought becomes dominant or obsession. Are there not times when we are not aware of everything the body is experiencing and feeling? Is that not typical? Trance?
I think we should admit that most of the time we are in some kind of a trance, in the ruts of our lives. Routines, institutionalizations, socializations, habits, familiar faces, places, and events, etc. all seem to lull us into a semi-awake state. Trance?
(What IS completely awake, anyway? How would you know?)
When we die, to what extent do we lose our conscious awareness? (No one can say?) Just because the body dies, must that mean that consciousness / awareness / existence dies? ("Are you sure?") (I'd say that what mainly leaves us in death is a strong sense of individuality. Individuality is NOT existence, but it probably seems that way.)
I suspect that a sense of being in death--like deep sleep, sleep with dreams, and body-/ ego-based consciousness--is simply another state of awareness.
None are better than the others. All can (and should) be accessed simultaneously all the time. All are facets of a single existence called reality that doesn't have a beginning or an end.
It may be, on the other hand, a measure of spiritual immaturity to argue that there is only the conscious awareness that people know in the mental-rational stage of evolution (the one we are generally in now). In previous periods, Man had awareness, albeit of different emphases than he focuses on today. Plotting a trend line through these different kinds of consciousness suggests that there will be new kinds of awareness yet coming. It would be arrogant to argue that we have reached the pinnacle of awareness as a species.
I can appreciate how the loss or subordination of one's individuality (ego) would be traumatic and scary. That is, I would think, our imaginative ego defending itself. We are big on death denial. There's a million different ways we employ to deny it.
In one of those videos we heard: "Things big and small cancel each other out owing to symmetries in nature."
One of the interesting ideas - on par with his statement that we are all stardust (amazing) - is that there is no duality between science and the experiential arts, that "mind" is completely symmetrical with the material world though in ways that are vastly counterintuitive involving both infinite and temporal aspects, material and void. Our fixation with "things" is nothing more than our minds abhoring a vacuum and incessantly gurgling up thoughts, feelings, sensations, impulses, like a quantum field spuing particles, seemingly out of nothing. This has allowed us to become marginal masters of our external environment.
Since Modern science is limited why do they obstinately adhere to such a defective system?
It operates just like a mechanic who refuses to ask the manufacturer how to fix his product.
He won't even listen to manufacturers repair manual.
All he does is makes theories and speculations how to fix the machine independent of the designer.
This called the ascending process which is stooopid.
The descending process is far above superior in that the manufacturer gives the instructions to fix the machine with little to no unnecessary time wasted on guessing.
Guessing mental speculation and theorizing can lead to even more breakdown of the machine as we actually observe in our world today.
They band aid, imperfectly fixing one thing, and in process break so many others that they never even envisioned due to their complete lack of understanding the whole.
What a stooopid system.
Yet this is the system that has taken on the illusionary vision of authority due to their poor fund of knowledge of true authority which they deny even exists.
Instaed they've artificially manufactured their own defective system independent of reality as we can easily see and observe by our complete disharmonious actions from even material nature itself ......
There is a lot of talk here about "spirit/the spiritual", so I would like to add this. In this world (here/our bodies) we can only suffer & endure, or take so much pain & torment. There is a limit to it (thankfully). Because, it will eventually kill us (extreme pain) or whatever is being applied to us which brings about that pain will kill us. The same goes for joy, bliss, ecstasy, etc! There is a limit to that also!
But, FWIW, we are body, soul and spirit. Our body will not accompany us into eternity. What I am saying is, there is NO limit to either in eternity. I have experienced both (in the "spirit"). There are NO words, description or anything that can even come close here on earth to compare it to!
MikeL said,
"I think we should admit that most of the time we are in some kind of a trance, in the ruts of our lives. Routines, institutionalizations, socializations, habits, familiar faces, places, and events, etc. all seem to lull us into a semi-awake state. Trance? "
I admit that , "I am not in control as much as I'd like to think I am. " if it were up to me I wouldn't sleep eight hours a day. What a waste of time! But my brain demands it. It works all day keeping up with the whims of my conscience. When " I"decide to eat, the brain dictates the bodyto digest and produce that intake into nutrition and calories. Without "my" help.
When "I" decide to go to sleep. I'm commiting (or agreeing) to a short death. I am shutting off consciousness and handing over control to the brain. Why would the conscience agree to this? It is a daily act of the consciousness suppressing the ego and allowing the body to be placed in it's most vulnerable state; laying asleep. But the body doesn't ever turn off. We loose 2 lbs. every night when asleep. Burning calories from being busy. So is it the body-mind tha really needs this rest time? Or is it the conscience dictating the body because of its need to be somewhere else?
VVVVVVVV mr dahli lahma appears to be pretty drunk.i wonder what he's got in that cup.
it’s a very bizarre mixture of ideas that are solid and good with ideas that are crazy. It’s as if you took a lot of very good food and some dog excrement and blended it all up so that you can’t possibly figure out what’s good or bad.”
Scientists Discover Possible Building Blocks Of Ancient Genetic Systems
November 13, 2012
Before DNA became the Earth’s primary genetic material over 3.5 million(sic) billion years ago, scientists believe forms of life used RNA to encode genetic instructions. What came before RNA, though?
A research team from Weber State University and the Stockholm University think the answer might be N-(2-aminoethyl)glycine AEG, a small molecule that when linked forms a hypothetical backbone for peptide nucleic acids. Scientists hypothesize that peptide nucleic acids are the first genetic molecules. The pharmaceutical industry has studied synthetic AEG as a possible gene silencer to stop or slow certain genetic diseases. Up until now, however, AEG has been unknown from nature.
The research team discovered AEG within cyanobacteria, which are believed to be some of the most primitive organisms on Earth. During hot summer months, cyanobacteria appear as mats of scums on the surface of reservoirs and lakes. They can handle widely ranging habitats, from the hot springs of Yellowstone to the Arctic tundra.
“Our discovery of AEG in cyanobacteria was unexpected,” explains Dr. Paul Alan Cox, part of the American team based at the Institute for Ethnomedicine. The findings of this study were published in PLOS ONE.
“While we were writing our manuscript,” Cox says, “we learned that our colleagues at the Stockholm University Department of Analytical Chemistry had made a similar discovery, so we asked them to join us on the paper.”
The team analyzed pristine cyanobacteria cultures from the Pasteur Culture Collection to determine how widespread AEG production is among cyanobacteria. They collected further samples from Guam, Japan, and Qatar, along with samples gathered in the Gobi desert by famed Wyoming naturalist Derek Craighead. All of the samples tested produced AEG.
The samples were retested by the Stockholm University group with identical results: all samples of the cyanobacteria produced AEG. With confirmation, the analysis seems certain. What is unclear, however, is the significance this finding has for studies of the earliest forms of life on earth. For example, does the production of AEG by cyanobacteria represent an echo of the earliest life on earth?
“We just don’t have enough data yet to draw that sort of conclusion,” reports Cox. “However the pharmaceutical industry has been exploring synthetic AEG polymers for potential use in gene silencing, so I suspect we have much more to learn.”
Nice vid from Marlow on the Dali Lama. He is very secure in the verity of his 2,600 year old tradition and welcomes science to weed out the superstitions that would otherwise obscure the lotus, so to speak. I'm not a Buddhist but if that path is to find any traction in the west (the practical meditation aspects are very popular) I believe the arcane elements will have to be shorn away. No better man to start that task than the DL.
Let us know!