Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 11341 - 11360 of total 23010 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Dec 2, 2012 - 10:36am PT
Jan,
My point is that different religions have different objectives. How can every one of them be necessary for our survival? IMHO, for society to survive it needs laws. No religion necessary.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 2, 2012 - 10:47am PT
Drf
" Because if you didn't have the intense instinctual need to live and procreate, then you were a dead end as a species, and other life forms that were better at it took over"

I just want to "see" what you "see".Please show me where you see Algee,a billion years ago having this "intense instinctual need to live and procreate".Or in the Cactti you have today. Is this "need" written in the
"meat" of the DNA? Or is it constituted from the external forces of the Solar System? Or?
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Dec 2, 2012 - 10:57am PT
Blueblocr,
It is not a difficult concept, but you need some background in biochemistry and probability.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Dec 2, 2012 - 11:14am PT
Moosedrool-

For a society to survive it needs a belief system that gives it a purpose and a set of norms. Traditionally religion has served that function. While I concede that science does a better job of explaining how we got here than traditional religions I would disagree with your conclusions about laws.

To view everything in legal terms is typical of the American belief system however. In Japan where I live, people operate on the basis of custom and face saving based on Confucian principles. They have very low crime, very few police and only 1% of the lawyers we do. When I lived with the Sherpas they were two days' walk from the nearest police outpost and wouldn't think of calling Nepali police to a Sherpa community anyway. They had no law or lawyers and almost no crime (with the exception of one rogue community member) but based their behavior on Buddhism.

Internalized group norms are far more effective than police, security systems or lawyers in creating a safe and functioning society. With our diverse population and many different religions we are forced to fall back on the law but it is a poor substitute for shared values and normative behavior.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 2, 2012 - 11:41am PT
So is the Sun "Alive"?
Is Water "Alive"?
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Dec 2, 2012 - 12:33pm PT
Jan,

Sure, religion and tradition can serve a society well. But there are many examples where it didn't. Look what was happening in Europe for several hundred years. The crime rate was much higher than today, not to mention the wars between different religious groups. As you said, America is a mix of many religions. The only way for them to coexist is to obey the law.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 2, 2012 - 12:54pm PT
Jan, I whole heartedly agree with your observations of religion providing social mores and structural cohesion for society. the fact that it provides for a spiritual philosophy in order to do so is secondary, at least to me, but I'm sure we can all agree on the first function as vital and if religion is the only institution that can provide it then I'd say lets have it. However I'd say there's plenty of proof now that that isn't the case and to top it off, religions typically demonstrate an allegiance to traditional dogma that is increasingly at odds with our understanding of the natural world (the most important world) and unable to provide a required ability to adjust thier ethics to new understandings of morality.

Religion used to dominate every aspect of society and generally to good effect. That was before any age of enlightenment. Whether secular philosophies can replace it as the foundation of civilization is no gimme I'm sure but one thing is sure - If Religion can provide nothing but blind dumb dogma to a blind dumb loyal xenophobic tribe surrounded by other blind dumb xenophobic tribes then the end game isn't good

Unless of course you have an easy out to heaven (they think of everything don't they?)
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 2, 2012 - 12:56pm PT
Ed U jus said;

" doesn't requite an "intense instinct to survive"
it's just a part of the chemical reaction... "

Doesn't this pertain to "life" ^^^

So what are the Sun and Water, but emergence of Matter through chemical reaction?

i,m not argueing jus ask'in.My statements are 99% question.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 2, 2012 - 01:11pm PT
Bruce, well put.

On the lighter side...

Muse, you have her on the ropes, don't let up!

P.S. If you have a background in biochemistry esp and you like philosophizing on where this whole shebang is heading (up another pitch or two; or over a cliff), then let me welcome you to the thread. (As it's been pretty stale, elementary, pedantic, embarrassing, etc., and all the above, lately; so some fresh blood could certainly be reinvigorating.)

.....

re: the subjectivity and contingency of ‘telling the truth’ (vis a vis the presence of traditional Abrahamic theology)

Highly recommended: A Separation (2011)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1832382/

Best Foreign Film, 2012

Among many insights, highlights how literalist belief in traditional Abrahamic theology (swearing on the Quran - as a social device; cf: swearing on the Bible) among devout believers of a tribe -esp bitd - greatly facilitated truth telling - which is of course an invaluable quality in the interest of the tribe and its cohesion.

Also highlighted another motif exceptionally well: how through no intention of our own we can get caught up in things. Going grand one moment, in the fire the next.

Life is trouble, only death is not.

.....

re: The American Ministry of Culture and Abrahamic Guidance

Imagine, if in America we had an analog to... The Iranian Ministry of Culture and Islamic Guidance (which prohibited the production of the aforementioned film early on) just how stifled our "ascent" in cultural evolution would be. The irreligious, post-religious ideation that's been soaring nowadays in unprecedented levels - and that's now a staple (a tradition-in-progress) of our 21st century zeitgeist (that's eventually going to lead to the development of a new discipline beyond "religion" and "philosophy" that concerns the practice of living, "what matters" in addition to "what is," and social cohesion) would never had had a chance to get to the surface to take wing. Gratitude!

The trundling is now at full-scale, and there's no stopping it.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 2, 2012 - 03:18pm PT
bruce

"Religion used to dominate every aspect of society and generally to good effect. That was before any age of enlightenment. Whether secular philosophies can replace it as the foundation of civilization is no gimme I'm sure but one thing is sure - If Religion can provide nothing but blind dumb dogma to a blind dumb loyal xenophobic tribe surrounded by other blind dumb xenophobic tribes then the end game isn't good"

These are "materialistic" Religions that where born since Christ.
They drive Nations and Governments around Europe and the rest of he world.
As Moosedrool pointed out.

THIS is the Beautiful thing about America, that i was trying to point at to Jan earlier!
THe Christian conscienceness learned over time and through experience, It cannot be a voice through mans Governments. Because Governments want to tell them how to live.
"America" stands for FREEDOM for the individual! The Declaration of Independance was undoughtedly forged from the Bible. Which demands the seperation of church and state! Which decares the individual freedom of choice. An honest free choice to beleive the Bible or not. Without the force from cultural governments. This is what Christians want!
American Christians invite the opportunity to open the Bible and dissect
its Truths. Jus keep It out of the courts!

THIS is what i Love about America, We CAN voice our criticism of all the Religions of the World. And point at them. And dissect them.
you couldnt do that right now in Russia or China or Iran etc!
WBraun

climber
Dec 2, 2012 - 03:22pm PT
you couldn't do that right now in Russia or China or Iran etc!

Oh sure you can.

You can do it anywhere in the world at anytime you want.

You can do it even while in jail chained to the wall with rats gnawing at your feet ......

Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 2, 2012 - 03:39pm PT
Blueblocr, you certainly sound like my kinda Christian but are you so sure about america avoiding being held hostage by Christian political power? Sure it ain't no Afganistan but holy cow man, every stupid policy move of the past whatever number of decades has been at the hands of fatuous ignorant turds that get a pass because they proclaim Jesus is on thier side. Sure, I know that ain't your Jesus but what you good Christians have got to do before anything else is go after those blasphemers like Pat Robertson, Santorum and Billy grahams as#@&%e kid and put a few metaphorical bullets in their heads.

Instead of aligning yourself with the devil because the devil claims sacred immunity by waving a cross around. Its the same with those bloody good Muslims. If they're so peaceful and caring the first thing they should do is go wring the necks of the Taliban for all the outrageous blaspheming they are responsible for. But they won't will they? How about you? stick with the tribe when the chips are down?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 2, 2012 - 04:31pm PT
This is what happens to people who believe in ghosts...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7N5OhNplEd4
jstan

climber
Dec 2, 2012 - 04:36pm PT
I wonder if there is not a bit of extreme egotism here.
An individual assumes they understand the real world perfectly.

Then something happens the person can't understand.

It had to have been supernatural.

Wonder where the weak link is here.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Dec 2, 2012 - 04:49pm PT



BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 2, 2012 - 05:31pm PT
Bruce
The tribe is hard to distinguish through sight...
God does work in mysterious ways. And He says He uses all men for greater good.
Jesus said many would call on his name, but have not known Him..
I think that shows us, there's more than one way to understand Him.
I don't think anyone can understand Him, unless the soul understands what it is to suffer.
I found it interesting when the Cheif Preist asked Jesus why are all your followers
whores, and thieves, and adulterers and evildoers? Jesus said, for they have suffered the pains of Man and in this they understand My message. And they pick up their cross
and follow me.

Moral of the Bible; Love your brother , as you would like him to Love you.
Thats IT! Simple.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Dec 2, 2012 - 05:36pm PT
Yep, dead simple. So just do it without falling back on an imaginary friend's authority and it's still all good, right?
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 2, 2012 - 05:55pm PT
There is no hidden purpose at all to procreation, and there is no communication between members of any cosmic gene pool.

It is _roughly_ like flipping a coin.

Tails and the individual dies before replicating.

Heads and the individual replicates before dying.

Of course there are many variations to this, including an individual procreating a number of times, but it all boils down to one point:

You procreate and your species has a better chance at survival.

If you fail to procreate before death, then your species has a lower chance of survival. If they all fail to procreate, then the species goes extinct.

There is no purpose or fanfare behind any of this. It is a very simple idea. What is amazing is, given a few billion years, the sheer number of different species that have existed. A man is no different from a bacterium in this respect. I know it sounds harsh, but that is the way it is. We just don't think of ourselves like that since we currently rule the planet and have urbanized every arable acre.

A bacterium may be even more succesful. Their population is orders of magnitude greater than the number of individual humans, they have been around for billions of years, and are quite succesful at adapting.

You have to clear your head of all of this anthro-centrism. It is a fleeting idea with no real basis, unless you think that microwave ovens and Seven Pillars of Wisdom are cool.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 2, 2012 - 05:57pm PT
Right?
except it's not ALL good. and thats where we need Jesus to show us how to forgive our trespassers with Love!

thats why even the person whos "right" in an arguement hasn't the right
to insult the person whos "wrong". but merely teach him with Love
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 2, 2012 - 05:59pm PT
What about Jews? They haven't come around to this Jesus stuff. Their God is the old testament God, who is a pretty rough character.
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