Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 10, 2012 - 06:58pm PT
Your two favorite examples of evidence-based faith or experience-based faith?

Mine are:

(1) Looking in my sideview mirror as a driver, seeing that the road behind me is clear and then pulling a u-turn without directly looking. That's faith!

But it's evidence or experience-based faith. (Not blind faith, not religious faith, the worst-case sort of faith).

(2) Hanging on a half-inch rope thinner than my finger hundreds of feet off the deck while rock climbing. My life in the hands of fate and faith - exilarating to the hilt!

Again, it's not blind faith - the kind that's historically valued in our religious institutions; rather it's evidence or experience-based faith that's earned through learning and training, in other words life experience in how the world works.

Note that both cases illustrate a faith (i.e., a trust) in the constancy of causality, in the regularity of natural laws, in the macro predictability of deterministic systems earned by learning and life experience.

When people use the word "faith" I always try to think about it in context and figure out what kind of faith they mean.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Dec 10, 2012 - 07:52pm PT
Healyje:

Your NYTs article is hysterical. Couldn't stop smiling. TFPU.
luggi

Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
Dec 10, 2012 - 08:26pm PT
christmas humor and such

Credit: luggi

Jewish olympic swimmer
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Dec 10, 2012 - 09:15pm PT
Dalai Lama
Those who have little interest in spirituality shouldn’t think that human inner values don’t apply to you. The inner peace of an alert and calm mind are the source of real happiness and good health. Our human intelligence tells us which of our emotions are positive and helpful and which are damaging and to be restrained or avoided.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 10, 2012 - 09:33pm PT
The inner peace of an alert and calm mind are the source of real happiness and good health. Our human intelligence tells us which of our emotions are positive and helpful and which are damaging and to be restrained or avoided.

I agree and it doesn't sound like he's suggesting religion or spirituality are requisite in any way.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Dec 10, 2012 - 09:54pm PT
lots of psychology hypotheses have their roots in the 'explorations' of psychoanalysis

It is the same in most social sciences, but particularly psychology and anthropology. People on this thread are always asking where's the data? Observation of humans is our data. Of course some go out to do fieldwork with a preconceived theoretical framework, Marxist social scientists being a good example, but in both anth and psych the more different the culture or behavior, the less known-theory based on western science, accurately describes what is going on.

This was discovered by the first field anthropologist when Malinowski described the Trobriand Islanders as being at variance with the then widely accepted Oedipal complex. And every graduate student is told that at least one working hypothesis they take to a non western village will probably be blown away during their first week of actual fieldwork.

Humans are endlessly inventive, so inventive that the only universals anthropologists have been able to find after 200 years of looking is some sort of incest taboo (all societies forbid mothers and sons, all else is allowed by somebody somewhere) and that all societies can be grouped into one of six subsistence levels. This is a far cry from the hope 150 years ago that someday we would be able to predict human behavior by plugging in variables just like a chemical formula. It also gives us an indication of why the problem of consciousness is so difficult.

Already on my master's thesis I discovered this inventiveness when I compared various high altitude societies in regard to inheritence patterns and the problem of limited resources. In the absence of modern contraception, the solutions ranged from religious celibacy, late marriage and the marriage of only the oldest two children in a family (European solutions) to several brothers sharing a wife (Himalayan solution).

What really happens in social science is much more interesting than any preconceived notions of what will be found.


















TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Dec 10, 2012 - 09:58pm PT
this thread continues to convince me of several points:

we humans don't know much, understand little, and have much to learn

the scientific method is a useful tool for studying certain aspects of reality, but is severely limited and often myopic...like a high powered telescope with a narrow field of vision that lets you learn something about the surface features of the moon; but can hardly compare to the experiences of a person actually going there and walking around and looking around

some adherents to the scientific method seem to use the limitations of science to justify and reinforce great personal myopia regarding their awareness of reality, thus allowing themselves to dwell within their very limited comfort zone, and similarly control others

i think some of the greatest scientists are very humble and do not exhibit such myopic delusions of grandeur in their level of understanding

there is so much that we don't understand, scientifically or otherwise, that to pretend some sort of broad understanding of reality is just simply hubris, and is doomed to eventually face severe reality adjustments

it is interesting to look at human progress in terms of sudden breakthroughs to new levels of understanding on a grand scale

i suspect we are facing right up against some such breakthroughs

i also suspect that early examples of such breakthroughs will basically be hoaxes perpetuated as false flag operations by those attempting to control the situation and consolidate their control over populations

these ones are not the wise ones, and do not have at heart the welfare of the general population, but only their own selfish interests

suspect any apparent breakthroughs of knowledge or technology that serve to limit personal freedoms; as the implications of the real breakthroughs are to greatly expand personal freedoms, abilities, and understandings





Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Dec 10, 2012 - 10:00pm PT
healeyje-

The Dalai Lama is increasingly de-emphasizing religion and speaking instead of human universals.
This is a reflection I believe, of his many conferences with western scientists interested in contemplative practices but not in religion.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2012 - 10:06pm PT
TomC
why don't you tell us what we don't know
What are all these unanswered questions?
What is there that we don't understand?
Do we really need to understand everything?

or is just acknowledging it's existence enough,
or observing how something works, isn't that enough to understand the fundamentals, and we really don't need to understand every bit of it to make predictions and theories about the item in question.


Because as far as I Can see, we know alot, and what we don't know is often exaggerated.

Of course most of the unanswered questions arise when we add God, spirits and souls to the mix, which makes sense, since we can't even define what these things are, or if they exist.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 10, 2012 - 10:17pm PT
Because as far as I Can see, we know alot, and what we don't know is often exaggerated.

The essence of hubris exposed.

Beware Nemesis!
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2012 - 10:20pm PT
Beware of the idiots that think we don't know anything!!

Moronic stupid idiots, that believe lies and talking points over facts
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Dec 10, 2012 - 11:23pm PT
Evidence Suggests Flood, Noah's Ark Existed, Says Robert Ballard, Archaeologist Who Found Titanic

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/10/evidence-noahs-flood-ark-real-robert-ballard-archeologist-titanic_n_2273143.html?1355183096&icid=maing-grid10%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl5%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D243741

Holy Smokes!
TFSTFU

Trad climber
Utah
Dec 10, 2012 - 11:29pm PT
What did Noah feed all dem animals and how did he convince the lion not to eat the deer? Use some common sense go b
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Dec 10, 2012 - 11:44pm PT
Matthew 19:26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Isaiah 11:6 “The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,
The leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
The calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
And a little child shall lead them.
7 The cow and the bear shall graze;
Their young ones shall lie down together;
And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra’s hole,
And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper’s den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,
For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord
As the waters cover the sea.
TFSTFU

Trad climber
Utah
Dec 10, 2012 - 11:52pm PT
Slayer 1:17 "I've seen the ways of god, I'll take the devil any day. Hail Satan. "

Slayer 6:66 "Welcome to the horror of the revelation Tell me what you think of your savior now I reject all the biblical views of the truth Dismiss it as the folklore of the times I won't be force fed prophecies From a book of untruths for the weakest mind I keep the bible in a pool of blood So that none of its lies can affect me"

Slayer 9:1 Oppression is the Holy Law In God I distrust In time His monuments will fall Like ashes to dust Is war and creed the master plan? The Bible's where it all began Its propaganda sells despair And spreads the virus everywhere

[Refrain:] Religion is hate Religion is fear Religion is war Religion is rape Religion's obscene Religion's a whore

The pestilence of Jesus Christ There never was a sacrifice No man upon the crucifix Beware the cult of purity Infectious imbecility I've made my choice 666!
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 11, 2012 - 12:03am PT
the scientific method is a useful tool for studying certain aspects of reality, but is severely limited and often myopic...like a high powered telescope with a narrow field of vision that lets you learn something about the surface features of the moon; but can hardly compare to the experiences of a person actually going there and walking around and looking around

some adherents to the scientific method seem to use the limitations of science to justify and reinforce great personal myopia regarding their awareness of reality, thus allowing themselves to dwell within their very limited comfort zone, and similarly control others

i think some of the greatest scientists are very humble and do not exhibit such myopic delusions of grandeur in their level of understanding

I generally agree with your drift, particularly with your last statement, but so would any person of science. It is the essence of science - the endless search for a better understanding! It is inherent within the process that even the process itself may yet be proven wrong. Certain proponents may be ideologically compelled to declare perfection, but you can't blame the system for that moral failing.

Your first analogy I think is misleading however in identifying weakness in scientific process. The "Experience" of walking on the moon as opposed to merely "Observing" the surface of the moon are really the same. One is simply more tactile than the other. One method of observation may stimulate more spiritual feelings or emotional feelings or a sense of intimacy or immediacy and the other disproportionately more intellectual curiosity perhaps. Those emotive experiences may also be mixed in with highly material observations like "texture" or " granular flow characteristics" that are experienced and felt more than measured and documented.

The stimulus provokes.... something. That something requires a justification if you are interested in the LEGITIMACY of the meaning and power of the something. An acid trip can provoke either delusional nonsense or great revealing of truth... but you'll never know the difference without the proof provided by jumping out the window, which is science.

Look at it this way - I was attempting today to describe the processes involved in a "confidence scheme" to my son. It involved a real event where I strongly suspect a neighbor / acquaintance convinced me of the viability of an investment, which over time went sour.

It involved (as they all do) gaining enough confidence or faith in a mark to enact a sale of a fraudulent product. The sale hinged on faith. The defining Go / no Go decision was not based on factual evidence and reason.

I have a strong sense that he took me for a ride, as opposed to the investment failed due to external inherent risk factors. I don't have conclusive evidence to either his miss represented character / intent or the technical miss representation of the investment vehicle, but the circumstantial and sugestive evidence is strongly leading.

But thats it. My son asks me how sure I am to which I said 75% on gut instinct which won't amount to a pinch of sh#t in a court of law... and good thing too.

That dosn't mean our system of jurisprudence is perfect or incapable of error, corruption or any other subversion of purpose. However it has proven - PROVEN - to be the best capable tool and system we have for the application of justice through seeking the truth. Comparatively, a system of justice that serves emotional needs of retribution before truth and moral principle is PROVEN to be lacking in justice. It would feel awesome to pound the sh#t out of the guy..... I think.

It boils down to the truth. And as my son was suggesting I didn't know the truth. If I was to "decide" as I really wanted to, I needed what I didn't have - the numbers and documents and facts that provides conclusive evidence and a rational theory which withstands critical analysis. Without that all I have is faith.

So is there another way other than the scientific process to explain what so far seems lacking in explanation? Maybe, but faith aint it. Faith explains nothing by its mere definition. Faith is justified only when proven justified. Faith may be a critical factor in behavioral motivation which has resulted in this or that, but the beliefs behind the motivation and behavior remain untested, unchallenged and unknowable.

So sure religion has a track record of getting us this far. The question is, is it the truth it claims or is it just another ponzi scheme with a inherently limited life span due to its inherent inability to sustain belief? Well at one time we were pretty sure the world was flat, and that belief had been perfectly useful up to the point we realized it was stupid.

Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 11, 2012 - 12:14am PT
the scientific method is a useful tool for studying certain aspects of reality, but is severely limited and often myopic


Tom, I guess that was a long winded way of saying "Compared to what?"
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 11, 2012 - 01:27am PT
Bruce Very Well Said!

"Faith is justified only when proven justified."

The Bible says God instilled every man with a measure of faith. And that faith comes from hearing the word of Jesus. He also said faith without
works is dead.

You can understand if your faith lies in the strength of a line being jugged. Your faith will be justified with each succesful accent.

This would be faith with works!

Being filled with the HolySpirit, when i ask Jesus to help me in somesorta
need. When my prayer is answered with a specific answer only He and i can
understand. My Faith IS justified.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 11, 2012 - 01:44am PT
tsstfu
" The pestilence of Jesus Christ There never was a sacrifice No man upon the crucifix Beware the cult of purity Infectious imbecility I've made my choice 666"
_

its almost a quote from Iron Maiden. i used to listen to Slayer in my skateboard'in days.Then later with Danno.RIP.

i think it funny.Slayer proclaims there was no sacrificial Jesus. Yet
they choose to beleive in 666. the mark of the Anti-Christ

So their choosing to be negative toward something they dont beleive in?

In the words of WB "THATS STUPID!"
TFSTFU

Trad climber
Utah
Dec 11, 2012 - 11:10am PT
The reverand Kerry king wrote those lyrics, and he's an atheist meaning he doesn't believe in god and also means he doesn't believe in Satan. 666 to him is anti-religion.
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