Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Feb 6, 2013 - 01:29am PT
Higghs Boson confirmed:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/trending/2012/09/11/higgs_boson_confirmed_cern_discovery_passes_test.html
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 6, 2013 - 01:46am PT
sorry, i thought the search had been narrowed down, but not confirmed

now how about string theory, and what do multiverses do for non-spiritual materialism?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 6, 2013 - 02:33am PT
Almost confirmed (a boson exists, but is it Higgs - Ed?)...

From Wiki: In 2012 a previously unknown boson was discovered; its properties are still being studied in 2013 to confirm whether or not it is the Higgs boson. Proof that the Higgs boson exists would be monumental since it would finally prove the existence of the Higgs field, the Standard Model's explanation of why some fundamental particles have mass when 'naive' theory says they should be massless, and - linked to this - why the weak force has a much shorter range than the electromagnetic force. Its discovery would validate the final unconfirmed part of the Standard Model, guide other theories and discoveries in particle physics, and – as with other fundamental discoveries of the past – potentially over time lead to developments in "new" physics, and new technology.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Feb 6, 2013 - 07:41am PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#288347

Psalm 146:5 Happy is he who has the God of Jacob for his help,
Whose hope is in the Lord his God,

Ecclesiastes 2:24 Nothing is better for a man than that he should eat and drink, and that his soul should enjoy good in his labor. This also, I saw, was from the hand of God.

Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:

Fear God and keep His commandments,
For this is man’s all.
14 For God will bring every work into judgment,
Including every secret thing,
Whether good or evil.

Romans 14:22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.

John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments.

Ephesians 5:18 but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, 20 giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21 submitting to one another in the fear of God.

Matthew 6:9 In this manner, therefore, pray:
Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

Luke 11:28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

Philippians 4:4 Rejoice in the Lord always. Again I will say, rejoice!

...Lord let me do Your Will, freely!
MH2

climber
Feb 6, 2013 - 10:50am PT
moose,

I am no philosopher and I just wing it in these discussions. I am puzzled over whether there is a difference between 'determinism' and 'determined.' When an -ism comes up in a conversation I balk.

For an example from your link:

Determinism: The world is governed by (or is under the sway of) determinism if and only if, given a specified way things are at a time t, the way things go thereafter is fixed as a matter of natural law.


The use of a phrase like, "the way things go" compresses too many possibilities into too few words it seems to me. However, by the above definition of determinism, there are situations in classical Newtonian mechanics wherefrom the way things go thereafter is not fixed and therefore not deterministic. However, I am not talking about natural law, whatever that is, but only about solutions to the equations used in classical mechanics to predict an outcome in a particular case.



edit:

I didn't read far enough in your link. I'll take another look.


OK, Figure 4 in your link is the sort of thing I'm talking about.





Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Feb 6, 2013 - 11:02am PT
fructose-

I loved every minute of the Cambridge University debate video on religion in the 21st century and highly recommend it to everyone.

One really gets the impression listening to educated Brits speak that they invented the language and we just speak a pijin version of it. All speakers were excellent and except for the last few minutes when he got polemical, I even warmed to Hawkins - he seemed quite charismatic and persuasive. And imagine if our religious leaders were as educated as the archbishop of Canterbury?! You're right, Douglas Murray represented my views more closely than the others.

Here's what Wiki says about Essex from which I gather it was a disparaging comment.

The Only Way Is Essex is a British award-winning television show based in Essex, England. It shows "real people in modified situations, saying unscripted lines but in a structured way."The show is filmed just a few days in advance. It is narrated by Denise van Outen, who is from Basildon, Essex. The show has been described by the Daily Mirror as Britain's answer to The Hills and Jersey Shore.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 6, 2013 - 11:22am PT
What about the heat from the disgraced "Cold Fusion Device"???

Can it be harnessed for electrical generation?
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Feb 6, 2013 - 12:04pm PT
MH2,

there are situations in classical Newtonian mechanics wherefrom the way things go thereafter is not fixed and therefore not deterministic.

This is how I understand it. Those examples involve objects and phenomena that either don’t exist in our Universe i.e. (smooth spheres or infinite velocities) or objects that are not “Newtonian”. There are many technical discussions on the subject which give me a headache when I try to read them ;). But even if Newtonian theory is not deterministic, it doesn't describe our Universe. The best theory we have right now is Standard Model which incorporates quantum mechanics.

I tried to read this. Have fun!

http://www.socsci.uci.edu/~dmalamen/bio/papers/NortonDome.pdf
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 6, 2013 - 12:10pm PT
Determinism: The world is governed by (or is under the sway of) determinism if and only if, given a specified way things are at a time t, the way things go thereafter is fixed as a matter of natural law.

-

A deeper mental trend - deeper than the debate about causal connectedness, correlation, determinism, mechanistic/materialistic flow, and so forth - is our way of thinking that one thing necessarily arises from some previous set of factors be they random, chaotic, or a row of ducks or billiard balls that interact with Newtonian precision. In this view, material reality unfolds in a linear progression. Maybe we cannot predict every outcome beforehand, but after the fact we generally can see the connectedness or sequence and flow of events. Free will implies the arising of processes that are not bound nor yet beholden to prior things.

Another view says there is only energy, which by nature is always in motion, and as such is continually morphing into different forms whereby nothing is lost in the process. Of course because of the zero balance in the universe, there was noting there or here in the first place, perhaps meaning what is (forms) and zero or nothing at all are flip sides of the one and only "coin."

JL
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Feb 6, 2013 - 12:35pm PT
OK Largo.

Let’s put a twist on it. Let’s say that because of the laws of nature there is more than one path we can chose from, but the number of choices is limited. It would be like arriving at an intersection. Let’s then say we have free will to choose any EXISTING path. We are free to choose, but all the outcomes are already determined. Would you say we have free will?
MH2

climber
Feb 6, 2013 - 12:57pm PT
The best theory we have right now is Standard Model which incorporates quantum mechanics.


And that reminds me: I learned on this forum that Richard Feynman is supposed to have said that no one really understands quantum mechanics.
WBraun

climber
Feb 6, 2013 - 01:37pm PT
The truth will out, as Shakespeare wrote, and when it does it will shake Western society to its core.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 6, 2013 - 01:43pm PT
Especially so given the absolutely exemplar manner in which life on the Indian subcontinent has unfolded as a result of knowing the truth.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 6, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
The truth will out, as Shakespeare wrote, and when it does it will shake Western society to its core.


If it does so be it. But why believe in it until it does?
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 6, 2013 - 02:06pm PT
What about the heat from the disgraced "Cold Fusion Device"???

Can it be harnessed for electrical generation?

Always thought the term "cold fusion" was a bit misleading. Actual "COLD" fusion would be kinda dumb.

More accurate would be "Not too hot fusion".
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 6, 2013 - 02:12pm PT
We are free to choose, but all the outcomes are already determined. Would you say we have free will?

Whether we have real choices I am not sure of nor do I know how to prove it one way or another.

But I am sure that if we do have choices they are limited.

I cannot for example choose to become the planet Jupiter and travel instantly to the core of the Andromeda galaxy and have a cup of coffee there.

I would settle for a definition of free will as being the ability to make any real "choice"
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 6, 2013 - 02:21pm PT
We do not have free will if there are an infinite number of universes, each perhaps differing by the position of only a small particle. Literally infinite is tough to grasp.

You might call me "mechanistic," which I do not like, but the real test of any deterministic universe is if you can look at a set of conditions and look both forward and backward. Of course, if there are an infinite number of universes, then all bases are covered. The word infinite is so unwieldy that it may as well mean no.

There are some fairly simple mathematic problems with determinism as well.

Largo, you live on the beach. Walk out there, or wheel your way out there, and check out the sea. All of those waves are part of a chaotic system. You can model a chaotic system and get good results, but they cannot be exact down to the last particle.

If anyone is pushing for a deterministic universe it would probably be religion. God is all knowing, which means that he already know every step and thought you will have in your entire life. That would involve disregarding math's contribution to the question. Which is something that I am not ready to do without some serious persuation.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 6, 2013 - 02:27pm PT
IMHO Werner Braun has already transcended this level of 'reality' and just finds it amusing to occasionally go slumming here

That seems true to me as well. Sometimes I have no idea what he is saying and other times it seems like perfect sense.

Our personalities and interests and differences make for a good discussion if nothing else. This thread is about the only one I have payed attention to for months. The other ones are filled with trolls or real climbing, which I don't even do anymore. I love the TR's, though.

Mental speculation is fun to me, and I don't get pissed at people over it. This thread is full of intelligent people from differing life experiences and opinions. They all bear some relevance.

Most of the time, anyway.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 6, 2013 - 03:04pm PT
I don't know, I generally take strong belief in absolutes and dogma to be more a sign of emotional challenges in the face of adversity and exposure to life's harsher realities.
Norwegian

Trad climber
Pollock Pines, California
Feb 6, 2013 - 03:13pm PT
sweet ed,
you totally dreamed up the equation
that quantifies a waste of time,

at 95% CL in the mass range 111–559 GeV, except for the narrow region 122–131 GeV. In this region, an excess of events with a local significance 5.9 σ, corresponding to p₀ = 1.7 × 10⁻⁹, is observed. The excess is driven by the two channels with the highest mass resolution, H→ZZ(∗)→4l and H→γγ, and the equally sensitive but low-resolution H→WW(∗)→lνlν channel. Taking into account the entire mass range of the search, 110–600 GeV, the global significance of the excess is 5.1 σ, which corresponds to p₀ = 1.7 × 10⁻⁷.

..you just unraveled eternity, and it is not continuous.
for everyone with carbon towing their chain
attempts to justify times passage with
mediocre's like understanding and love, and grace and such shite,
and then mr. dr. ed comes along
and whispers that time is best spent, wasted.
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