Politics, God and Religion vs. Science


Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 11301 - 11320 of total 22711 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>

Somewhere out there
Nov 30, 2012 - 08:54pm PT
The dog thinks all sorts of new ways to get the bone from his master.

Only the master knows when the bone will come to the dog .......

 Werner has a bone he's keeping from his dog in order to make his point…..

Just speculation

Nov 30, 2012 - 11:50pm PT
MikeL said:

The mind is infinitely energetic and creative. It does nothing but Make Sense.

The mind does more than Make Sense. Mine does, anyway. My mind delights in forms, colors, sounds, scents, warmth, cold, pressure, and small details seen or heard or remembered that catch my mind unaware with their little or long levers and move my feelings. No sense required. Things just feel good, or they don't. There is no bogey-man urge to know and understand everything. I estimate that I spend about 85% of my waking hours with no conscious thought in my head, yet my mind is aware of what is around me and what I am doing. What I am claiming is that the mind does more than make sense. It can receive information without trying to place it in folders.

In science, though, one should be on the lookout for the result that doesn't make sense. It may teach you something new.

Hebrews 1:3
Dec 1, 2012 - 03:15am PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#276378

Psalm 86:8 Among the gods there is none like You, O Lord;
Nor are there any works like Your works.
9 All nations whom You have made
Shall come and worship before You, O Lord,
And shall glorify Your name.
10 For You are great, and do wondrous things;
You alone are God.

11 Teach me Your way, O Lord;
I will walk in Your truth;
Unite my heart to fear Your name.
12 I will praise You, O Lord my God, with all my heart,
And I will glorify Your name forevermore.
13 For great is Your mercy toward me,
And You have delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol.

Luke 18:19 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.

James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. 18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth

Matthew 5:48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Romans 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

John 6:38-40 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. 26 Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. 28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 1, 2012 - 10:03am PT
I'm hoping this thread ends up an unforeseen beneficiary of Largo's untimely fall from grace.

Dec 1, 2012 - 10:27am PT
Yes. I have a hard time picturing a good computer scientist whose ambition is to create a sentient machine. As Werner pointed out, we already know how to do that and we have about 7 billion examples. It may become possible to build machines that organize themselves and learn from experience somewhat as we do, but unless we can discover principles and rules that let us direct those machines along predictable trajectories we haven't learned much. For research purposes it is still better to view the brain as a kluge of many parts, each with a different job to do. However, the way the parts cooperate in serving the interests of the individual suggests that there are strategies evolution discovered that we haven't.

Somewhere out there
Dec 1, 2012 - 10:47am PT

Just know, religious folks, it is possible to live your life without god

(Specifically listen to Joe Rogan's piece… Makes more sense than any of your gods)

Dec 1, 2012 - 10:55am PT
it is possible to live your life without god

Completely impossible to do.

It's never ever been done period. EVER!

Everything in the entire material cosmic manifestation is none other than his variegated energies and what to speak of the entire infinite superior spiritual manifestations.

Life comes from Life .......

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 1, 2012 - 12:00pm PT
I have a hard time picturing a good computer scientist whose ambition is to create a sentient machine.

Why do you have a hard time picturing this? There have been many ambitions which seemed loony at the time, religion or not.

Can a man fly?

Can a man cure disease?

Just about any question that you can think about is being worked on furiously, and artificial intelligence is indeed a hot topic. The only reason you can't imagine it is that you probably don't keep up with science very much. There are at least a couple of institutes that do absolutely nothing but work on artificial intelligence.

There are many examples such as this. Already computers are being programmed with evolutionary software. I read that the design of cellphones used a lot of evolutionary software. Try this, it doesn't work, learn from that mistake, try something else, and on and on.

This type of code is already here, and I would bet yours and mine asses that a truly self replicating computer with only a few basic evolutionary rules are already being worked on. I know for a fact that you can simulate evolution rather easily on a computer by writing a simple model with a few basic rules. I am good friends with the guy who is credited with writing the first software which accomplished this. It is very interesting. They let it run and all sorts of things popped up like parasites, that hadn't even been programmed in. This was back in the nineties and he is a fairly famous guy. Thomas Ray. My next door neighbor, who teaches evolution here at the University of Oklahoma, about ten blocks away.

We used to have monthly get togethers, invitation only, of a few people to just discuss strange ideas and aske each other questions. They used to be called "Chautauquas," and were quite popular 80 or 90 years ago.

To be asked to join, you have to be pretty smart on a number of topics. Politics is never discussed, just science, so it is a group of scientists of varying backgrounds including Physics. I get to go just because of the massive size of my brain.

A guy like The Chief wouldn't be invited. He doesn't create ideas, he is more of an idea spewer. Sort of like a really bad musician who thinks he is great. Neil Young said that about Charles Manson. Manson lived in the canyon near Young's and a bunch of the other 60's era musicians and would write and sing songs. I saw an interview with Young on the topic of Manson and he said that he wasn't really a songwriter, he was a "songspewer."

We haven't done one in a while, but they are pretty cool. A lot of the talk is about Dr. Ray's current work, but we all feel free to attack it and ask hard questions. It is a lot of fun. That guy knows an incredible amount about neurotransmitters and hallucinogenic drugs. It flows over into what each chemical's job is in the brain and into mental illness and psychotropic drugs. Super interesting stuff.

It is sort of the opposite of going to bible study. In bible study you learn to interpret a single thing. No real discontent with ideas is allowed. In these discussions any idea is allowed, and the idea of religion vs. science has popped up more than once.

Great fun. Buy a couple of bottles of wine and spend five afternoon hours bouncing new ideas off of each other. It is pretty much a purely science group from differing backgrounds. It can get pretty heated at times, but that is just good discussion. If you want to talk nice and eat tiny sandwiches, you go to a party. These are not parties.

I need to kickstart it up again. Lots of fun.

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 1, 2012 - 03:00pm PT


I'll do it if Jingy will.

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Dec 1, 2012 - 03:41pm PT
I don't have a hatchet, but I will bury my pitch fork.

I don't pray, but I will meditate.

For Largo.

Somewhere out there
Dec 1, 2012 - 04:33pm PT
I'll do it if Jingy will.

 Hey Largo,

Hopefully you get better sooner than most other human beings. But if you are still anything like the rest of us you can expect a bout of pain followed by uncomfortable sleep followed by 6 - 10 weeks of recovery/rehabilitation.

Sorry, no prayer is needed.
Time heels better than prayers.

BASE104 - You're on your own
Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 05:00pm PT
so the idea that we could decant the content of our brain so that our "mind" is stored elsewhere probably doesn't work either..

That could work in some distant technological time. However, If there exists elements of consciousness outside of the biological, physical model we would consequently know . If the brain could be 'decanted' like a fine bottle of Pinot Noir the resultant simulacrum would taste like the original. If there are elements of consciousness outside of the physical model it would taste like Thunderbird wine, presumably.

Credit: Donald Thompson

Credit: Donald Thompson

Hebrews 1:3
Dec 1, 2012 - 05:23pm PT
One day we will have new bodies...

1 Corinthians 15:42 The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Philippians 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.
Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 05:51pm PT
I know for a fact that you can simulate evolution rather easily on a computer by writing a simple model with a few basic rules

Interesting. Could a link be provided for further details?

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 1, 2012 - 06:40pm PT
Google Tierra. I think that was the first one. There are quite a few now.

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 1, 2012 - 07:07pm PT
Base, i was down with the 'pause' Amen!

"I have a hard time picturing a good computer scientist whose ambition is to create a sentient machine."

SO,what if he could?
he would just have a huge stack of binary experiencualality.Inwhich to choose the most high precentile equivualent scenerio.

I just got off the phone with the ATT operator. i could tell she was a Black Lady from the South. And not a girl from India.

I wonder how a 'machine' would disypher that one?

Jus Be'in Silly

Dec 1, 2012 - 07:12pm PT
Only the species as a whole has a purpose: and that is to procreate.

You're making that up, Dr. F.


You have me. I over-spoke my position. You're right. The mind does more than make sense. It perceives and records through the 5 senses and the "conversations" that go on inside one's head. What I should have said was that the our contemporary mind (mental-rational) is especially oriented to objective speculations (thinking, abstractions, modeling, objectivizing).

I'd post a pointer to a summarizing paper here that I've written, but I haven't put it up on the web anywhere because it is still somewhat of a work-in-process. If you're interested in this different structures of consciousness stuff, I'll send it to you. My summaries and musings in the paper are primarily based on works by Ken Wilber, Jean Gebser, George Feuerstein, Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, and Erich Neumann (and others). What I've found interesting among these works are the following:

(i) No structure of consciousness can be communicated or understood through another structure. Each must be lived to be understood.

(ii) No structure of consciousness is more important or insightful than another structure. Each shows something different.

(iii) All structures of consciousness can be and should be accessed simultaneously, rather than just one or another. No structure of consciousness should dominate another.

(iv) There would seem to be a recognizable progression in the emergence of one structure after another.

BTW, you say your "thinking mind" is only on-line 15% of the time. I know many meditators would would be happy to be able to achieve that metric.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
Dec 1, 2012 - 07:17pm PT
i could tell she was a Black Lady from the South. And not a girl from India.

Thats what you think.

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 1, 2012 - 07:55pm PT
Also, Jinghy, that post was satire. All he did was break his leg.

My best friend from high school came from a wildly fervent Baptist family. He used to tell me about his mom driving around the block over and over again and actuall having them pray for a parking spot.

Seems like God would have better things to do.

What is weird is this whole new "prosperity Religion." If you have cable and can watch Joel Osteen or Joyce Meyer, it will blow your mind. The whole point is that if you follow their instructions, God will make you rich in this world.

Not only did everything that I have read about material wealth being dangerous when reading the Bible, it is downright cursed a few times.

I have no idea how these preachers can do this while at the same time other preachers get their panties in a bunch over evolution. If you see Joel Osteen's packed to the gills mega church in Houston on the tube, you can see right away that this is Big Business

No sh#t. Their is a wiki page on it:

Dr. F.

Ice climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2012 - 08:08pm PT
The divine purpose of life explained in one sentence!!

Only the species as a whole has a purpose: and that is to procreate.
Credit: Dr. F.
Messages 11301 - 11320 of total 22711 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks

Try a free sample topo!

SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews