Dr. F.
Ice climber
SoCal
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2012 - 09:40am PT
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It would be impossible for me to become a Christian
Even if God appeared before me, I would say I was wrong, I would change, but that change would not be in the direction of Christianity
I have tried to read the Bible, It is unreadable, and makes no sense as a historical record, or as something to base a religion on.
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go-B
climber
Hebrews 1:3
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Nov 12, 2012 - 09:46am PT
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Even if God appeared before me, I would say I was wrong, I would change, but that change would not be in the direction of Christianity
...but one day you will appear before God!
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Dr. F.
Ice climber
SoCal
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2012 - 10:09am PT
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Prove it.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Nov 12, 2012 - 10:46am PT
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Dr f
" Where as the Bible and Christian Church is the exact opposite, it does not change, it does not evolve, it stands firm against any change that could make it harmonious with Reality, it is the Opposition against science"
No the Bible does not evolve! It is all together perfect already!!
It was good for man 6000 years ago. And it is still at the heart of men today.
If anything I would say science is the opposition to the Bible, since it's been around for all of mankind. Since science has only been around with the advent of America.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Nov 12, 2012 - 11:01am PT
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I have tried to read the Bible . . . it makes no sense as a historical record.
I think the only things that make sense to Craig are literal things, historical things, quantifiable things. It follows that he would consider "true" only those things that are literal, historical, and quantifiable.
Thanks to the Craig's of the world we have toasters and atom smashers. But there are more truths out there because there is much more than Craig and I.
When we limit "truth" to mean only what it means to Craig and I, we have not proscribed the true limits of truth, but only our personal limitations to see and know truth - which are substantial, and are not necessarily shared by all mankind.
JL
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Bruce Kay
Gym climber
BC
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Nov 12, 2012 - 11:01am PT
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No the Bible does not evolve! It is all together perfect already!!
It was good for man 6000 years ago. And it is still at the heart of men today.
Yes you are right - it does not evolve..... unless of course someone ever gets around to a Newer Testament..... but anyway, true. Which of course is the problem. You see what was good 6000 years ago is of less certain use now. Still lots of good stuff in there but it really needs to evolve.
Like Shakespeare. Who the hell can decipher Shakespeare these days except maybe Conrad Black and I wouldn't take his word for anything.
Have you guys ever thought of a Newer Testament in Rap?
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Dr. F.
Ice climber
SoCal
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2012 - 04:50pm PT
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What am I missing?
You keep pigeon holing me into some kind of Unknowing Nerd.
Just lay it out for me,
then I will comment on the issue.
Explain how there are things that can't be investigated and defined?
And therefore never be able to be understood.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 12, 2012 - 08:14pm PT
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How about your reaction to a painting or a poem and Largo's and mine?
There is a whole world of feeling and perception of beauty which is not
quantifiable in the scientific sense.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 12, 2012 - 08:17pm PT
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blueblocr-
I'm surprised somebody hasn't jumped on this already, but science did not begin
with America. Haven't you ever heard of Isaac Newton and Galileo?
Or how about some of the ancient Greeks who knew already that the earth was
round and tried to calculate the distance to the moon?
And then there were the Indians who invented the concept of zero and the
Chinese who invented gunpowder
and ways to measure earthquakes among others.
There really is more to this world than America and the Bible.
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Dr. F.
Ice climber
SoCal
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2012 - 08:33pm PT
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How about your reaction to a painting or a poem My reaction?
Can I default to "a warm fuzzy feeling"
I'm not missing that.
Anything else?
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Dr. F.
Ice climber
SoCal
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2012 - 08:37pm PT
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Jan
Has there been anything that God has told us about the science of our world?
It seems not, all those things you mentioned were discovered my man using his mind and science.
God has never told us anything we don't know.
Only through science have we learned about this world,
It appears that God only tells us things we already know, and want to hear.
and I will have to conclude, we have never talked to God, we only talk to ourselves
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 12, 2012 - 08:54pm PT
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Not one single thing ever in your so called science has been discovered without the hand of God.
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jstan
climber
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Nov 12, 2012 - 09:24pm PT
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perception of beauty which is not quantifiable in the scientific sense.
I generally agree with Jan's observations about the real world. Were one word added to the above I would agree here also.
perception of beauty which is not presently quantifiable in the scientific sense
As study of the brain with new imaging techniques advances apace there is no telling what the future holds.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Nov 12, 2012 - 09:37pm PT
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Jan
Just think back to the time during signing of the declaration of independence. 1776. Less than 1 billion people on the planet. The cowboy days, pretty much indicative of civializations around the world. No running water. No electricity. No transportation, other than animals.
Not a lot of Scientific creature comforts being used at this time. Making iron was prolly the
most advanced thing in science around the world. And we been doing that since the Egyptian days. And then BAM! America, guns, electricity, radio, metal boats, trains, cars, airplanes, iPhones. America did more with science in 240 years, then the rest of the world did in 6000!
Now there's 6+billion people. See any correlation??
Jus Historyate'in
BB
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Bruce Kay
Gym climber
BC
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Nov 12, 2012 - 09:44pm PT
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BAM! America, guns, electricity, radio, metal boats, trains, cars, airplanes, iPhones. America did more with science in 240 years, then the rest of the world did in 6000!
Now there's 6+billion people. See any correlation??
no .... but this should be interesting.
Can you please expand on that?
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Nov 12, 2012 - 10:12pm PT
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Drf
" Has there been anything that God has told us about the science of our world?"
God of the Old Testament taught man about seasons before he discovered it was round.
He taught man about weather. And when and how to plant food and when not to. He taught man about numbers ,integers, whole numbers, division, and percentages. God gave Solomon dimensions for the perfect temple. God also showed John airplanes and rockets over 2000 years ago. But He didn't give John a schematic so you probably don't believe it.
Jus Listen'in
BB
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MikeL
climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
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Nov 12, 2012 - 10:13pm PT
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Explain how there are things that can't be investigated and defined?
And therefore never be able to be understood.
Er, . . . if there WERE things that could not be investigated and defined, then they (by definition here) could not be explained. And vice versa.
For example: infinity.
How can anybody know what infinity is? How would a person investigate it? If a person can't say that they know infinity, then how could they define it properly?
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Bruce Kay
Gym climber
BC
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Nov 12, 2012 - 10:40pm PT
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America, guns, electricity, radio, metal boats, trains, cars, airplanes, iPhones. America did more with science in 240 years, then the rest of the world did in 6000!
OK Blue blocker I'll take a stab at it. America benefited from a few centuries of european scientific advancements then finally the big Kahuna - the Industrial Revolution, starting in britain, spread into Europe then finally across the pond to The wilderness of north america. The shithouse luck - or divine fate, depending on what you groove on - of Industialization and a whole freaking continent to rape and plunder resulted in the wild coke binge known as the USA which may still be continuing to this day.
America was a result of two unbelievable gifts coinciding fortuitously. Europe gave it Industrialization, and the Indians gave it a land and resource grab never seen before and never to be seen again.
Now is that cool or what?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 12, 2012 - 10:51pm PT
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No the Bible does not evolve! It is all together perfect already!!
It was good for man 6000 years ago. And it is still at the heart of men today.
If anything I would say science is the opposition to the Bible, since it's been around for all of mankind. Since science has only been around with the advent of America.
it is a frightening statement...
...why even attempt to have a discussion.
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