Politics, God and Religion vs. Science


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Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 27, 2012 - 10:59am PT
Just as I know you can channel God's Angels. I also know you can channel the devils angels.
The Bible warns about it. And as long as the devil has you in his grips. He won't pay you any nevermind. But as soon as you start to inquisite in the Lord he'll fight you tooth and nail. You must discern with your mind. When you discover a truth meditate on it or pray. Your conscience will always tell you what's right. To know if it's of God you must ask in the name of Jesus. Remember God knows your thoughts. The devil only knows what you say out loud.

Jus Remember'in

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 27, 2012 - 11:12am PT

you're joking, right?

you are an adult and actually believe in good and bad angels....

how about Fairies?

Ghosts and Goblins coming this week for Halloween, believe they are real too?
Mighty Hiker

Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 27, 2012 - 06:17pm PT
There is this lady, Nancy,who used to totally invade the sci.astro forums and became an almost beloved pet. She belives that the Zetas communicate to mankind through her, and she has been predicting disasters for many years. Nothing happened, of course, but that hasn't slowed her down.

Sounds like the LEB.

Would it be correct to say that a hydrogen bomb has a short fuse?

Boulder, CO
Oct 27, 2012 - 06:58pm PT
Easter is canceled this year.

They found the body.

Mountain climber
San Diego
Oct 27, 2012 - 10:47pm PT
Neuroscientist Sees 'Proof of Heaven' in Week-Long Coma

Article with associated videos. Excellent.

A non-beleiver before, but now all his family are believers in Yeshua HaMashiach. Praise Hashem Adonai Elohim. G-d is the G-d of miracles.

He confounds the wise by keeping it simple. All that is needed is simple faith. Believe in Yeshua as your Lord and Redeemer and ask G-d into your life and he will do so. He will forgive you and abide in you.

Heaven Is Real: A Doctorís Experience With the Afterlife
Oct 8, 2012 1:00 AM EDT
When a neurosurgeon found himself in a coma, he experienced things he never thought possibleóa journey to the afterlife.

Iím not the first person to have
discovered evidence that consciousness
exists beyond the body. Brief, wonderful
glimpses of this realm are as old as
human history. But as far as I know,
no one before me has ever traveled to
this dimension (a) while their cortex
was completely shut down, and (b) while
their body was under minute medical
observation, as mine was for the full
seven days of my coma.

Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife [Paperback]
Eben M.D. Alexander (Author)
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
Oct 27, 2012 - 11:03pm PT
Thats so cool Klimmer! Especially that there is a video. I can't wait to see it. I hope there's more to it than harps and clouds.

Video evidence is great. Here, I found this on youtube:


Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 27, 2012 - 11:20pm PT

"Here's another weighing in on how important it is to not let "the other side" "

I AGREE!! The crux is determining who's on YOUR side! I for one, honestly agree on some issues of both sides; from the attached article. So where does that put me? I think we need to align the facts from both sides of each issue. And not be swayed in a direction from someone's opinion on how life is supposed to be. Both sides have extremists that dilute the facts to propagate an agenda. "Religion" should not be a factor upon the political table.
"God" is not the only thing described in being a "religion". Science (to some), is also a "religion" based on faith!

Jus Agree'in

Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Oct 28, 2012 - 12:08am PT
HFCS - Who's got an "evil theory" they want to expound on?

Speaking of "evil" one thing is for certain, you do not want to cross paths with THE supreme evil of this universe (Satan)! Here is the story of two people I know/have known that have...

A person (friend/acquaintance/peer) I new from surfing at Sunset Cliffs, specifically at a break known as Nubreak/Nubes, approached me one day as we were both sitting on the beach at that iconic surf spot and told me that Satan had appeared to him and told him what he (Satan) could do with all his money. Now he had a LOT of money, $50,000,000.00 worth. He had just turned 21 and had inherited that 50 million. His name was Bunker Spreckels.

We were the same age (21), born just a few months apart. Both of us lived to surf. And I suppose there were other similarities, but financially we were very opposite. He was the stepson of Clark Gable. CG had married his mother (after his biological father died) when he was about 3-4 y.o.! He lived on CG's ranch near Malibu until he graduated from high school. Spent his time surfing either Malibu, the NS of Oahu (or Kauai) because he had connections there (grandfather/great-grandfather's sugar plantation) and respect that dated back to them/1800's from the local Hawaiians. And he also frequented my favorite surfing spot Sunset Cliffs, secondary to relatives that lived in Point Loma/Coronado for more than a century (Spreckels Organ / Spreckels Theater / Hotel del Coranado / etc) and property he and his family owned here, etc.! His grand/great-grandfather were well known tycoons here in SD, San Francisco, and as I just mentioned the Hawaiian Islands, were they made there vast fortune. And, like I also said, he inherited half (his sister got the other half) of his fathers Spreckels Sugar fortune.

In contrast, my father was a carpenter and I counted 18 different ramshackle places that we had lived between kindergarten and 12th grade. I didn't have the money for a wetsuit one winter (68-69). I had gotten booted out of my parents home right out of HS, had a sh#t night time job as a janitor so I could surf during the day, and pay my portion of the rent on a shack I shared with fellow friends and surfers in OB and also attended college full time (primarily to avoid the draft/maintain a student deferment). In other words, I paid my own way (like most peeps, i didn't have any other choice) and a new full wetsuit cost big bucks back then, money I could't spare so I surfed without one that winter.

I recall the water dropping to 48 degrees during one cold spell. Surfing, going out into the lineup and scratching for waves among our crew, a mix of rich Point Loma kids living off of trust funds, and my closest friends (basically broke/dirtbag surfer's) in that frigid water day after day gained me a certain amount of respect I suppose (from what i later heard) but it was not apparent to me then. I simply, like all the rest of the crew, loved & lived to surf, so I continued to do so without the wetsuit.

I also recall figuring out that he (Bunker) could spend $10,000.00 each and everyday and it would only be the interest on his fortune that he was spending. But, I had a lot of respect for Bunker & evidently it was reciprocal. I had battled my way up through the hierarchy of that specific break (no easy fete/long story) to gain a certain modicum of respect. And additionally, I never infringed upon him/his wealth, like a few of his hangers on were accustomed to doing throughout his life. It would have been fairly easy to do so, being in the situation I was in, but I chose not to. So I believe he also respected me for this.

BTW, Bunker was a very bright and intelligent individual, a chip off the old block (as they say). Brought up in the finest schools and with the best tutors that money can buy. For his family didn't get to where they were by any lack of intelligence, nor savvy, etc! And they had honed him for and were expecting him to go into banking. He also could be very intense, "driven" as they say. I suppose he had a lot to live up to, coming from where he did. And if he approached you and asked you a question, or asked for your advice, that intensity and sincerity shown through and was unmistakable, plus, it was very evident that he expected the same from you.

But sometimes a different burden comes with these traits, often accompanies having a lot of money. And I will never forget that day when he approached me, plopped himself down right in front of me (a very close friend was sitting near by and heard & can contest to the conversation) and announced what Satan had offered/proposed (a deal) to him. I have no doubt that it was Satan. And what he had offered him was fame & power to go along with the fortune he already had.

I wish I would have said more to him, because there was a lot I could have said and revealed in regards to the topic of that particular conversation. And furthermore, I suspect that Bunker approached me because he new I was a Christian, although I had never brought the subject up with him, or any of the crew of locals except for 3-4 of my tightest friends. Or at least God had led him to me that day (no doubt). Regardless, I now feel as though I let them both down. It wasn't to late for Bunker. And, a a matter of fact, it wasn't to late for Robert Johnson after he met and "signed a deal" with Satan at the "crossroads" and wrote a song about it (Down At The Crossroads) and gained temporary fame, etc, for it! Nor was it to late for the so called "27 Club" that have supposedly followed in his footsteps since. But, like it has been stated, he (Satan) is the master deceiver and "the father of all lies". And Bunker bought into his lies lock, stock and barrel, so to speak!

It was "not to late' because another guy, who became a fairly well known pastor in the Hawaiian Is. later on, was much closer to Bunker than I was. His name is Ricky Ryan. He was the surfing Jr. World Champion at one time and a Sunset Cliffs local. Won that crown in the 1966 world championship that took place in OB/San Diego where Nat Young won his world championship. He became a Christian and left it all behind, still surfed & shaped boards for G&S, but left competition, etc.! It was no longer his #1 focus, RR was the real deal (as people say) as far as Christians go. He walked the walk along with talking the talk, and was therefore VERY respected among all the local surfers.

Well, back to the main topic of the story. Long story short, Bunker passed away at 27 y.o.! There is a lot I could say about him, his life style, his focus. For brevity's sake i will leave much of that out. But he was well known in surfing culture at the time. Had an impact on it, etc. & was notorious for his hedonistic lifestyle. In fact he declared himself a "hedonist" as did his father & grandfather, etc. before him. If your really interested there is a book written about him by Art Brewer (famous surf photographer) & Craig Stecyk (C.R. Stecyk III) who produced the movie "Z-Town Boy's" about the Venice beach Zepher Crew & various other movies and books! Bunker briefly mentions his encounter with Satan in that '07 book "Bunker Sprekels: Surfing's Divine Prince of Decadence". Their is another individual who, at one time, said he was in the process of writing a book and making a movie about Bunker, he is the author of "Hollywood Babylon" Kenneth Anger!

I will not get into what Bunker told me, but all I have to say is this, that Satan is, like I said, a deceiver and "the father of all lies". But, from personal experience I will add that, he can be VERY convincing (more about that later perhaps) because, some 35 years later (after he approached Bunker) Satan showed up at my house (bedroom) early one morning. All I can say is, if your not a Christian, there is no way in hell that you are going to walk away from that encounter refusing what he has to offer you!

I just want to add one last thing, when Satan approached Jesus three times after his forty days and nights fasting in the desert and offered Him the world if He would just bow down to him (worship him) Jesus never denied that Satan could not give him that, because he could then, and can now!!

My heart bleeds for Bunker, because in that sense, I believe (after what i experienced) he didn't have much of a choice to refuse, since he was not a Christian. He did have intervention from Ricky & the owner of G&S (Gordon & Smith Surfboards) Larry Gordon, who was/is also a strong Christian. They offered him a lot (not going to go into all of it) including a shaping dock, the right to stick a G&S logo on the boards he shaped (he was a very good shaper with some very innovative designs for that period) which could have eventually gained him the fame and power he desired, but he took another route and followed Satan's lie.

Kenneth Anger considered him as being a member of the "27 Club" along with Jimi, Janus & Jim Morrison. KA should know, him being a high ranking member of The Church of Satan and a close friend of Anton LaVey, eh? KA, btw, new Bunker. I'll just leave it at that.

I have rambled on long enough. But, speaking of "Video evidence is great" I will leave you with this short vid about BS that will give you a little more insight into him and his persona...

So, I guess Bunker did gain some of the fame that he was seeking and was promised secondary to that encounter with Satan, eh? ...*sigh*!

edit: "Here is the story about two people that I personally know/have known that have..." Oh yeah, that second guy I mentioned at the start of this rather long post, was me (as i have already suggested)! More about that chilling encounter later, perhaps!

BLUEBLOCR - "I can't wait until the day..." -- AMEN, BRO!!

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 28, 2012 - 12:36am PT
Marvelous story Splitter!

I can't wait until the day we ALL sit around a campfire and listen to every story ever told!

It will be Glorious!

Jus Marvil'in
Captain...or Skully

Oct 28, 2012 - 06:57am PT
There's no faith in Science, Blue. Scientists are skeptics. You must be able to prove it. Always.

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 28, 2012 - 07:13am PT
and then we can hold hands and sing Kumbaya

Ice climber
the ghost
Oct 28, 2012 - 07:41am PT
You must be able to prove it.

And if you can't repeat a climb, then you got up it via fluke, not skill.

Trad climber
Placerville, California
Oct 28, 2012 - 08:09am PT
my understanding is fyve feat tall,
my imagination, 100 miles.

my heart dethrones the sphere
as nature's most effecient volume,

that pink muscle-o'mine, all wee
in surface area,
is ifinite
in it's capacity to dream:

though try as i might,
and believe as i can,
jesus is bullshite
and only 1/2 of infinity.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 28, 2012 - 08:25am PT
Satan is, like I said, a deceiver and "the father of all lies"

Sounds like Romney

How is that the Republicans can lie about everything, lie so much that 40% of the population now only believe the lies, and they are the party that most Christians will vote for.

Because Christians will believe anything you tell them, just tell them that it's the Christian thing to believe, that's why.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
Oct 28, 2012 - 09:03am PT
Thats an interesting story about Bunker and an intriguing parable of morality. One could easily speculate that Satans first move on Bunker started with his daddy's decision to burden a kid with a fortune. Or perhaps Satan was a young Bernie Madoff or Jerry Falwell or any number of other black or hollow hearted swindlers that may have been cutting their teeth out on the break that day. Or maybe they weren't evil at all, just sadly ignorant or deluded. We can only speculate.

Anyway, you believers of angels and harps guys, morality is something we can all take seriously and discuss, generally on equal terms. That is possible with anyone worldwide, barring those incapable, such as psychopaths, and there's evidence that we can even discuss such with chimpanzees. At least it is doubtful that chimps will insist on clouding the issue with notions of mythological certainty. Its not that I insist you personally dump all that mythology - I don't. If it works for you I'm happy for you and if its a tool that produces a honorable effect then it gets my respect. It is your sense of morality that matters to me in and how that translates into action.

Don't get my "Mockery" the wrong way. I think you'l find that all us humans regardless of ideology are on board with the general drift of "Satan" and the "15 commandments" ..... (or is that ten?) and all the various Aysop style fables you guys use as a sort of sing song narrative to organize and communicate your morality. We just use a different sing song to describe what is essentially the same narrative. It is how we treat each other that matters, not wether or not we believe god floats in the sky and I doubt god himself would really have such a big fit conniption about that little detail .... so why even bother fussing about it?

Of course the big hang up we have together is how useful faith and certainty is in applying our morality. Empirical evidence and defendable theory has a pretty good track record in gaining our understanding of the world, even in terms of understanding morality. If you follow that road then even certainty is at least theoretically possible, but our understanding of it is uncertain and is constantly evolving. No doubt all of us use faith to degrees but absolute faith is like hanging a big flashing neon sign around your neck saying "Hey Satan! I'm right over here!"
Dr. F.

Ice climber
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 28, 2012 - 09:17am PT
Isn't greed a trait that Satan would advocate
Isn't that what Romney has done all his life.

If a man buys businesses, loads the Company up with debt, fires all the people that work there, steals their pensions, and sends the factory to China, all so he can make huge bucks!, wouldn't that be considered evil

What if he bought your company, and sent you out onto the street, without a cent of the 10,000s you had saved in your pension.

Well he can be forgiven a little, since he's a Psychopath and it doesn't know that he is basically doing what is considered Evil, since he is incapable of feelings

But he should be Disqualified to be President
wouldn't he just continue to fill his coffers at our expense?

The President has to work for the most under privileged amongst us, not for the already privileged,

Oct 28, 2012 - 09:39am PT
It is how we treat each other that matters


Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 28, 2012 - 09:47am PT
It is how we treat each other that matters


Not only that, behavior best shows what our beliefs actually are. Words are not nearly as honest as someone's actions, IME.

For instance, Dr. F talks a mean game sometimes but in real life he is kind and gracious to a fault.


Oct 28, 2012 - 10:21am PT
I can't wait until the day we ALL sit around a campfire and listen to every story ever told!

In addition to the bible there are movies which are built on stories thousands of years old and dating from the aural tradition; the way we remembered accumulated knowledge before there was writing.

The Pathfinder in which there is even mountaineering from Scandanavia

and the Fast Runner from the Inuit.

The last two stories, however, do quite the opposite of advocating mayhem and killing. Makes one wonder just how many thousands of years middle eastern culture has been in difficulty. Perhaps ever since the soil there had been depleted from early agricultural efforts and the overgrown population had become unsupportable. Much like the era into which we now seem to be headed.

Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Oct 28, 2012 - 10:38am PT
Marlow - here is another vid similar to your "idiot jumps on the ice" vid...

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