Politics, God and Religion vs. Science


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Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Oct 26, 2012 - 03:47pm PT
Malemute - What about baby's, do they cry in heaven?

When God created Adam & Eve, they were full/whole spiritual and physical beings. They were not babies. When, for instance, an unborn, aborted, or infant child dies and goes to heaven, it is then fully/cognitively & spiritually developed & able to communicate with God. It is in a spiritual state, which is much more aware in every aspect, than we are. They are in the presence of God/His Spirit. It is them & Him period, no one else! A one on one relationship. Essentially, there is no time as we know it here on earth. The state they are in, they need nor desire nothing else. When they do arrive here with Christ in the Millenium, they will have bodies.

I hate to sound precocious concerning these matters, but you are clueless and worse yet, view it all as a big myth/joke. But, I can relate to your position, cuz how else could someone feel/perceive something that they are certain is just a myth? So, I am not remiss in regards to your questions being nothing more than snide and facetious (lacking serious intent) attempts at mocking and discrediting our faith, etc! Pretty evident from all you have contributed to this discussion, but for whatever reason, I am compelled to give some feedback.

So, like I already mentioned, the peeps that survive the Tribulation / Armageddon, will continue to have children (as will their children) and so forth, but "believers" won't (those that die before the tribulation, or are raptured before His second coming). Believers will, like I mentioned, have a new body, but will be able to recognize each other, so i imagine we will look similar to what we look like know. Regardless, I am not concerned in the least about the questions you have come up with. i do have faith that He will have something that is far beyond what we could even dream of (He said so in the Gospels, so that is good enough for me).

I had NO doubt who He was the day he came into my life. But, for whatever reason, He has continued to intervene in my life over the years. I am not alone regarding this, but evidently not everyone has similar experiences. Like I said, they were not to prove His existence to me, that was confirmed the day He came into my life.

He does speak to people, has in the past through the prophets, and continues to do so primarily through scripture (prophecy, etc) through prayer, and in some cases individually by any means He so chooses. He has used several ways with me, including audibly (a voice outside of myself or my spirit) and, as he did with Elijah, "A small, still voice." within his spirit/soul. That pretty much describes that one aspect very well.

I have already told you of several, like the time when I was 13 y.o. and He spoke very clearly and directly to me that my cousin's little baby was going to die on the following Friday. It did. Like I said, I never left my bedroom (for 4 days) just grieved very intensely. It was not a matter of praying for the babies life, etc., there was no questioning Him in regards to the matter, although I was extremely grieved. That began on a Tuesday afternoon, and when my aunt knocked on the door early (7:00am) Saturday morning, I new who it was and why she was there even before she broke out into a loud wail as my father opened the door.

It was a very heavy, painful & burdensome experience, especially for a 13 y.o. kid (me). I loved my cousin and the little baby (only recall meeting it once, since they lived in another town) and also loved my aunt and uncle and new how much they adored the baby (her first child/she was only 19-20). And, I really don't like to share about it in places like this. But, I am simply saying that He is very much more than what you think He (and our relationship to Him) is. I new Him very well by the time i was 13, He came into my life in a very dramatic way at 8 y.o.! And has continued to do some very dramatic (to say the least) things in my life. And once He does come into your life He never leaves (although believers tend to drift, at times).

He has done many miracles that I am aware of (since the time I met Him 50+ years ago). That, btw, was the only time something of a negative aspect happened (baby dying). He has intervened in my life at least a dozen times over a fifty year period. (just saying that it very rare for me to hear something from Him on that scale/not hearing voices daily, lol). That is not really very many, maybe once or twice every 5-10 years. He has told me things that would happen in the future (like i said, nothing bad/negative) and they did. I had 0/zero doubt that they would happen. I don't expect you to believe any of this, and i wonder why I even bother to mention it.

I don't really feel comfortable talking about these things on this forum, but I do care about you guys. So I stuck/stick my neck out, fwiw. And also because you (Craig) asked if I believed "every word" ...I would be an utter fool not to after all He has done/shown me. Some very heavy & powerful spiritual things and places, along with some rather simple and practical things. But, like I said, none of those experiences were necessarily required outside of my initial experience. And not meant to "prove" anything to anyone else, or to spray (or whatever) about here on the www!

edit: My point (in part) is that people can't, and are/were not meant to prove that God exists. Only God can do that with individuals. We (believers) are called to share about what we know and have experienced though, fwiw, but it is only through a personal decision and revelation that He will "prove" His existence to someone.

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 26, 2012 - 04:06pm PT
The 'logic' behind "prove god doesn't exist" merely results in god being no more real than Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy.

Ice climber
the ghost
Oct 26, 2012 - 04:27pm PT
Would you describe heaven as a place without strife?
That leaves humans out of it.
Unless you are going to change our DNA.

Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Oct 26, 2012 - 04:47pm PT
Would you describe heaven as a place without strife?


That leaves humans out of it.

Nope, cuz...

"We shall be changed ... But we know that, when He appears, we will be like Him." 1 John 3:2

"He will take our weak mortal bodies and change them into glorious bodies like His own." Philipians 3:21

And regarding "DNA" read 1 Corinthians 15:35-58!

Etc., etc!

Midvale School for the Gifted
Oct 26, 2012 - 04:57pm PT
A musical interlude...

Dr. F.

Ice climber
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2012 - 05:18pm PT
This is going to be exciting!!

We can watch this succulent burst into growth in a matter of weeks.
I didn't take a photo of Stage 1, which was no growth above ground level-zero

Stage 2
Bulbine bruynsii, just starting to sprout
I cut a couple of root tops from the main plant, and hopefully they will start a new plant, the little plant on the left is a root cutting from last year.
Credit: Dr. F.


Social climber
An Oil Field
Oct 26, 2012 - 05:21pm PT
If I have ever seen a bunch of people who don't understand logic and critical thinking, this is it.

An example of something that a person believes fervently, but even the spiritual here will find kind of goofy is this guy:

Here, to take another example, is a set of information channeled not from an ancient dead person, but from unknown non-human entities who make crop circles, as recorded by the journalist Jim Schnabel:

We are so anxious at this sinful nation spreading lies about us. We do not come in machines, we do not land on your earth in machines ... We come like the wind. We are Life Force. Life Force from the ground ... Come here ... We are but a breath away ... a breath away ... we are not a million miles away ... a Life Force that is larger than the energies in your body. But we meet at a higher level of life ... We need no name. We are parallel to your world, alongside your world ... The walls are broken. Two men will rise from the past ... the great bear ... the world will be at peace.

OK. This comes from a guy who is into crop circles and believes that he channels the "beings" who create them.

As for something being proven because It cannot be disproven is a massive rhetorical and logical blunder.

Some clever quotes about religion:

David Hume:

Men dare not avow, even to their own hearts, the doubts which they entertain on such subjects. They make a merit of implicit faith; and disguise to themselves their real infidelity, by the strongest asseverations and the most positive bigotry.

Thomas Paine, From "The Age of Reason":

Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving; it consists in professing to believe what one does not believe. It is impossible to calculate the moral mischief, if I may so express it, that mental lying has produced in society. When man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime.

T.X. Huxley:

The foundation of morality is to ... give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibilities of knowledge.

Carl Sagan:

Always ask whether the hypothesis can be, at least in principle, falsified. Propositions that are untestable, unfalsifiable are not worth much. Consider the grand idea that our Universe and everything in it is just an elementary particle -- an electron, say -- in a much bigger Cosmos. But if we can never acquire information from outside our Universe, is not the idea incapable of disproof? You must be able to check assertions out. Inveterate skeptics must be given the chance to follow your reasoning, to duplicate your experiments and see if they get the same result.

There is more of this, pilfered from Sagan's book The Demon Haunted World, which I think should be required reading for every scientist, and it wouldn't hurt if everyone read it. Arguments would be more sound, for example, and basic logical and rhetorical flaws coule be avoided.


Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 26, 2012 - 05:55pm PT

Splitter! AMEN! Thanks Brother!

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Oct 26, 2012 - 07:02pm PT
There once was a lab called CERN
With money and brains to burn
One fine day they turned on the grid
And found a Higgs boson, they did

They clapped and they cheered
They champagned and they beered
At last going home to their wives
Dreams of Nobels alight in their eyes

Another day, another particle found
Congrats and warm fuzzies all round
The deeper meaning of it all don't ask
Tomorrow's another day, another task

Across town the philosophs are found
Their doubt and debate always around
What then is their goal you may ask?
Satisfaction also, at their own task

Does any of it matter, is it real?
If not, why all the lengthy spiel?
Wine, women, climbing, and song
Can't we all finally, just get along?


Oct 26, 2012 - 07:05pm PT
The 'logic' behind "prove god doesn't exist" merely results in god being no more real than Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy.

Please. No less real.

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 26, 2012 - 07:34pm PT

Do the detectors detect fuzzy feelings?

I thought they had fission feelings?

Social climber
An Oil Field
Oct 26, 2012 - 09:56pm PT
It isn't hard to detect fuzzy feelings. The sociologists do all sorts of studies. So do psychologists.

So where do you come down on the statement from the crop circle believer, BB?

What about Scientology. I have to admit that the Catholic Chrch looks like the boy scouts compared to them, as well as being more grounded in the real world in which we live.

There is this lady, Nancy,who used to totally invade the sci.astro forums and became an almost beloved pet.

She belives that the Zetas communicate to mankind through her, and she has been predicting disasters for many years. Nothing happened, of course, but that hasn't slowed her down.

For your amusement, check out ehr hoomepage:


Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 26, 2012 - 09:59pm PT
Exactly how is god any more believable then zetas, Zeus, or the Easter bunnie?
Captain...or Skully

Oct 26, 2012 - 10:00pm PT
Nice, Jan.

Well, I liked it.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2012 - 08:07am PT
I get the warm and fuzzies all the time
I'm getting them right now!!
But I can't explain them, since they are just a feeling, they're unexplainable, they come and go, and leave no trace.

Whoops, there they go, comeback here you little rascals

I will have to go out into the greenhouse, that place is full of warm and fuzzy feelings.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2012 - 08:08am PT
Credit: Dr. F.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2012 - 08:10am PT
Credit: Dr. F.
We got start picking up the pace
We are within striking distance to that "What song are you listening to" thread!

Not that it matters
Dr. F.

Ice climber
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2012 - 08:15am PT
My favorite cactus
Credit: Dr. F.
Ubelmanniorum buiningii, Southern Brazil

Beauty, unusual, different, color, flowers smell sweet

But mostly: rarity in cultivation, difficulty in cultivation (super easy to kill), and extremely slow growth

That thing is over 15 years old.

The photo isn't that great
I had late afternoon lighting, which intensified the oranges a little too much
I have moved the studio in to the garage with artificial light, so I will try a photo in their, and we can compare

Hebrews 1:3
Oct 27, 2012 - 08:56am PT
What about baby's, do they cry in heaven?
Revelation 21
All Things Made New
21 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Sport climber
Oct 27, 2012 - 10:13am PT
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