Dr. F.
Ice climber
SoCal
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 14, 2012 - 09:15pm PT
|
However, it seems to me to be over reaching to declare that science has the origins of the universe figured out.
There are scientific theories that explain the origin of the universe.
No one said we have it all figured out, but the theories explain it in rudimentary terms, and the details are being filled in.
So it can be said, that the origin of the universe can be explained scientifically.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Oct 14, 2012 - 09:41pm PT
|
Your ire always seems to be up with me, Ed. Why is that?
dude, you think that was irate?
I just suggested that you learn about evolution, you seem smart and would probably benefit from actually digging in on the topic rather than having a sort of disdain of the actual study large enough that you stick with your opinions rather than actually grappling with the science.
Largo - you confuse abiogenesis with evolution what you are arguing about is your perception that abiogenesis is "impossible" so anyone who would argue that it happened has to be daft...
..but you ain't got anything else, do you?
As for the big bang, well, we keep learning more and more, you are so impatient that the fact that we don't have all the answers for you right now is taken by you as "proof" that the approach is fraudulent, you've said it many times.
In science we'd say often that we don't know something.. it's not that unusual. It is because we know what we know, and what we don't know... how refreshing it would be to see the same sort of openness in philosophy or religion... where everything is apparently known.
Take Zen, for instance, unchanged since the 6th century (relative new comer), I'm sure taht "self enlightenment" is a worthy goal, stick with a teacher and absorb his knowledge... are there female zen masters? Seems like it would only be a relatively recent occurrence, any reason why it is represented as a male monastic life style? Why would one study zen, what is it they seek, what is it they eventually learn?
Interestingly from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism) "The Buddha... is recognized by Buddhists as an awakened or enlightened teacher who shared his insights to help sentient beings end suffering through eliminating ignorance by way of understanding and seeing dependent origination and eliminating craving, and thus attain the highest happiness, nirvāņa."
sounds great... when I look at the page for Christianity there is no such concise description... well, perhaps piecing one together: "Jesus is the Son of God, fully divine and fully human and the savior of humanity.. Jesus' ministry, sacrificial death, and subsequent resurrection, are often referred to as the Gospel, news of God the Father's eternal victory over evil, and the promise of salvation and eternal life for all people, through divine grace."
Well, ok, it seems that the perception of both of these major religions of "the true nature of things" might be a bit different. And there are adherents vocal on this thread for these and other ideas... but all of these proponents have a difficult time with science, the goal of which is not to seek an ultimate truth, but to understand what is going on in nature, and a discipline which will admit readily to the limits of our current knowledge.
Time will tell. Science is changing and enlarging... as far as I can see, nothing else is.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Oct 14, 2012 - 10:20pm PT
|
It will be great fun if they discover that there was, or better still is, life on Mars. Unicellular life will do, even it's been extinct for eons.
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Oct 14, 2012 - 10:26pm PT
|
OK, time to open a big can of worms . . . or if you prefer I'm letting the cat out of the bag . . .
Here is a great question for everyone here: believer, seeker, agnostic, or atheist alike . . . this question is for everyone.
If on Mars we discover (or have discovered) fossil remains of the following organisms:
single-celled microbial organisms
Stromatolites
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stromatolite
Mollusca
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mollusca
Crinoids
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crinoid
etc.
Geologic Timeline with Fossils:
http://www.bobainsworth.com/fossil/timeline.htm
http://www.bobainsworth.com/fossil/palaeozoic.htm
. . . What does that say about evolution? Does evolution allow for exact parallel paths of evolution on 2 different but at the same time similar, yet remote terrestrial planetary bodies? Even considering panspermia, can panspermia explain that and allow for that? Perhaps microbial organisms can take the catastrophic space-raft ride on meteoroid fragments and survive, but macro organisms? I think not. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panspermia
So if the path of evolution on both planets: Earth and Mars, was parallel and pretty much the exact same, up to a particular point in geologic time, and then all of a sudden (most but not all) life was brought to a catastrophic end on Mars by a massive impact or impacts, what does that say about the process of evolution? How can evolution be exactly parallel on 2 different remote terrestrial planets? Does evolution work that way?
In the scientific theory of Evolution, evolution occurs by random change.
Evolution: "Evolution is the change in the inherited characteristics of biological populations over successive generations. Evolutionary processes give rise to diversity at every level of biological organisation, including species, individual organisms and molecules such as DNA and proteins.[1]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution
“Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous.”
― Albert Einstein, The World as I See It
I concur Albert.
Interesting comments, but no one really addressed the question except a few , and they don't believe we've found fossil evidence of past life on Mars.
I disagree. I think the evidence is overwhelming. And it shows that the development of life on Mars paralleled Earth, until the time of the Crinoids at a minimum.
How can evolution work this way ? I think if 2 very different planetary bodies parallel one another in terms of evolution, then this absolutely contradicts the definition of evolution. It suggests purposeful creation instead
I will share some of the incredible images from NASA's Mars official image archive.
See "A Fossil Hunter's Guide to Mars" by Sir Charles W. Shults III
http://www.shultslaboratories.com/AFHG2MPR.htm
You'll need a stereo scope viewer: Pokescope 3D Viewer and a anagram red/blue pair of viewers. Pretty incredible.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Oct 14, 2012 - 10:43pm PT
|
Stupid earthlings think life on other planets have to be like on their own.
There are living entities everywhere in the universe .....
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Oct 14, 2012 - 10:47pm PT
|
Ed doesn't yet have a clue what largos really really getting at.
There's no actual practice nor experience.
Thus the difficulties .....
|
|
BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
|
|
|
Oct 14, 2012 - 11:03pm PT
|
Ed said
"Time will tell. Science is changing and enlarging... as far as I can see, nothing else is. "
Yer right there. God's love never changes it's complete always perfect ! MAYBE? God's love entails all of the universes invisible laws and energies. And this is the spirit world he lives in?
And matter is the "anti-" to this spirit world? Kinda like how gravity holds us down to the ground. Ancient cultures worshiped the wind God and the son God. Maybe they weren't that far off? "I'm Jus Say'in" Thinking way outside the box now!
Science on the other hand is everybody's friend! Yeah it's chang'in. It's just a copulation of information. There's always more info. I have NO doubt when God times it, Science will find God. And bow down like the rest of us!
Jus Say'in
BB
|
|
Captain...or Skully
climber
|
|
|
Oct 14, 2012 - 11:05pm PT
|
Um, Compilation. It's different, trust me.
And sure, maybe. Don't bet your lunch money on it, though, bro.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Oct 15, 2012 - 07:58am PT
|
Ed doesn't yet have a clue what largos really really getting at.
that's for damn sure...
|
|
Dr. F.
Ice climber
SoCal
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2012 - 09:11am PT
|
Interesting comments, but no one really addressed the question except a few , and they don't believe we've found fossil evidence of past life on Mars.
I disagree. I think the evidence is overwhelming. And it shows that the development of life on Mars paralleled Earth, until the time of the Crinoids at a minimum.
Klim
I will answer your question Klimmer
Your delusional
There is absolutely No Evidence of any life having evolved on the Planet Mars. No life form has been found, nor any fossilized life like evidence.
It may happen, it hasn't been completely ruled out, but there has not been any evidence so far.
Zero, none, nothing...
So your whole theory of what it evolved to is a fantasy, like a Sci Fi thriller
|
|
MikeL
climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
|
|
|
Oct 15, 2012 - 09:51am PT
|
Your ire always seems to be up with me, Ed. Why is that?
dude, you think that was irate?
I just suggested that you learn about evolution, you seem smart and would probably benefit from actually digging in on the topic rather than having a sort of disdain of the actual study large enough that you stick with your opinions rather than actually grappling with the science.
There's a lot of this that goes on here on ST. You're a part of it, too. People make snarky, passive-aggressive, backhanded comments with sly adjectives, adverbs, and references to what a better person would do if they only had sense. People read into others' minds without first coming up with questions, and what they come away with is hardly respectful of any person's intentions, work, or experience. "If it's not my way, then it's the highway." In the end, little gets done here because people can't talk about the issues nearly as much as they lambast each other's integrity, personality, or intentions. In the end, it seems so much about ego to me.
There is literature that says that to get things done in a creative and productive way, people need to grapple with issues without letting their personalities get in the way. Furthermore, people need to learn how to play with ideas and do so with a bit of humor, even absurdity. This means that it is necessary to push beyond the confines of one's own ideas, concepts, and values--even if they have been accepted as Truth institutionally.
If you read my post, it doesn't (I don't think) express distain for the theory of evolution. If you read it, I said I was fine with evolution. What I was questioning was using the theory as guidance.
In the end, it doesn't really matter. I can see that I need to take a break from this.
|
|
BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
|
|
|
Oct 15, 2012 - 09:58am PT
|
How can evolution work this way ? I think if 2 very planetary bodies parallel one another in terms of evolution, then this absolutely contradicts the definition of evolution. It suggests purposeful creation instead
VERY INTEREZTING...
I think we should send base up there right away.
|
|
Dr. F.
Ice climber
SoCal
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2012 - 10:00am PT
|
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Oct 15, 2012 - 10:06am PT
|
How can evolution work this way ? I think if 2 very planetary bodies parallel one another in terms of evolution, then this absolutely contradicts the definition of evolution.
no, it does not
in fact, it "proves" evolution
|
|
Dr. F.
Ice climber
SoCal
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2012 - 10:10am PT
|
MikeL.
We all need to be very thick skinned to post on these types of threads
All of us will be slandered, back handed and slighted in some form or another
Don't take it seriously, most of the time it isn't intentional nor mean spirited. It just comes off like that using this medium for communication.
Largo called me Autistic!!, what a slam.
But he was just being overly emotional, and if he said that to my face, I would just laugh at his joke, but on ST, it seems purposeful, even though it's just the opposite.
Expresssions are overblown on the internet, we need to realize this, and have a good laugh and let them slide.
And, it's the ideas and words that people post that are being reacted to, Not the Person writing them.
|
|
BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
|
|
|
Oct 15, 2012 - 10:32am PT
|
MikeL
In the end, it doesn't really matter. I can see that I need to take a break from this.
OH MAN!! I agree. I to have been dragged down to see eye to eye with some.
some people have to learn respect with a swift kick in the butt. But their childish banter is worth putting up with to hear what you have to say. I hope you'll chime in when you see something good!
I for one really dig your vibe!
Jus Hope'in
BB
PS. In the end EVERYTHING is going to matter, EVERY word!
|
|
BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
|
|
|
Oct 15, 2012 - 10:41am PT
|
Drf
Are you being bad cop or good cop now?
Somebody said it best earlier;
When a foolish man is confronted he either gets angry or laughs.
Think about it; see if this pertains to you...
Jus Bumm'in
BB
|
|
Donald Thompson
Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
|
|
|
Oct 15, 2012 - 10:43am PT
|
This is sarcasm I hope?
No, just light humor. I felt like I was the only one on the thread, a feeling of depthless loneliness . I only get sarcastic when i'm properly fitted in my gorilla suit. I'll ' send photos.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!