Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 1, 2012 - 06:00pm PT
INTERMISSION

LARGO BROKE HIS ANKLE AND NEEDS OUR PRAYERS. LET'S BURY THE HATCHET FOR THE MOMENT AND PRAY FOR HIS FULL RECOVERY

I'll do it if Jingy will.
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Dec 1, 2012 - 06:41pm PT
I don't have a hatchet, but I will bury my pitch fork.

I don't pray, but I will meditate.

For Largo.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Dec 1, 2012 - 07:33pm PT
I'll do it if Jingy will.

 Hey Largo,

Hopefully you get better sooner than most other human beings. But if you are still anything like the rest of us you can expect a bout of pain followed by uncomfortable sleep followed by 6 - 10 weeks of recovery/rehabilitation.

Sorry, no prayer is needed.
Time heels better than prayers.

BASE104 - You're on your own
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Dec 1, 2012 - 08:23pm PT
One day we will have new bodies...

1 Corinthians 15:42 The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Philippians 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 1, 2012 - 09:40pm PT
Google Tierra. I think that was the first one. There are quite a few now.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 1, 2012 - 10:07pm PT
Base, i was down with the 'pause' Amen!

"I have a hard time picturing a good computer scientist whose ambition is to create a sentient machine."

SO,what if he could?
he would just have a huge stack of binary experiencualality.Inwhich to choose the most high precentile equivualent scenerio.


I just got off the phone with the ATT operator. i could tell she was a Black Lady from the South. And not a girl from India.

I wonder how a 'machine' would disypher that one?

Jus Be'in Silly
BB
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 10:12pm PT
Only the species as a whole has a purpose: and that is to procreate.


You're making that up, Dr. F.

MH2:

You have me. I over-spoke my position. You're right. The mind does more than make sense. It perceives and records through the 5 senses and the "conversations" that go on inside one's head. What I should have said was that the our contemporary mind (mental-rational) is especially oriented to objective speculations (thinking, abstractions, modeling, objectivizing).

I'd post a pointer to a summarizing paper here that I've written, but I haven't put it up on the web anywhere because it is still somewhat of a work-in-process. If you're interested in this different structures of consciousness stuff, I'll send it to you. My summaries and musings in the paper are primarily based on works by Ken Wilber, Jean Gebser, George Feuerstein, Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, and Erich Neumann (and others). What I've found interesting among these works are the following:

(i) No structure of consciousness can be communicated or understood through another structure. Each must be lived to be understood.

(ii) No structure of consciousness is more important or insightful than another structure. Each shows something different.

(iii) All structures of consciousness can be and should be accessed simultaneously, rather than just one or another. No structure of consciousness should dominate another.

(iv) There would seem to be a recognizable progression in the emergence of one structure after another.

BTW, you say your "thinking mind" is only on-line 15% of the time. I know many meditators would would be happy to be able to achieve that metric.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 1, 2012 - 10:17pm PT
i could tell she was a Black Lady from the South. And not a girl from India.

Thats what you think.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 1, 2012 - 10:55pm PT
Also, Jinghy, that post was satire. All he did was break his leg.

My best friend from high school came from a wildly fervent Baptist family. He used to tell me about his mom driving around the block over and over again and actuall having them pray for a parking spot.

Seems like God would have better things to do.

What is weird is this whole new "prosperity Religion." If you have cable and can watch Joel Osteen or Joyce Meyer, it will blow your mind. The whole point is that if you follow their instructions, God will make you rich in this world.

Not only did everything that I have read about material wealth being dangerous when reading the Bible, it is downright cursed a few times.

I have no idea how these preachers can do this while at the same time other preachers get their panties in a bunch over evolution. If you see Joel Osteen's packed to the gills mega church in Houston on the tube, you can see right away that this is Big Business

No sh#t. Their is a wiki page on it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2012 - 11:08pm PT
The divine purpose of life explained in one sentence!!

Only the species as a whole has a purpose: and that is to procreate.
Credit: Dr. F.
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Dec 1, 2012 - 11:15pm PT
"The divine purpose of life explained in one sentence!!




John 3:16
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 1, 2012 - 11:36pm PT
^^^^Very Spiritual. John 3:17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved,he who believes in Him is not condemned.


What is weird is this whole new "prosperity Religion." If you have cable and can watch Joel Osteen or Joyce Meyer, it will blow your mind. The whole point is that if you follow their instructions, God will make you rich in this world.

Osteen, Meyers, preach a "do good works" recieve "good rewards","Religion"

Not very Spiritual
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 11:45pm PT
It is true that not everything we experience can be communicated... so the idea that we could decant the content of our brain so that our "mind" is stored elsewhere probably doesn't work either... but my guess is that we share a lot of these experiences, many are common, and that if we could occupy another body with our mind many of the sensations would be familiar.

To a considerable extent, Ed, I'm sure this has been done--although not into a purely subjective experience as I or Largo at one time argued for. Cognitive and AI scientists and some cognitive anthropologists have downloaded semantic, procedural, and episodic knowledge structures from primitive tribesmen, chief engineers, and experts and then created manuals, systems, and instruction plans. I'm fine with calling that "mind," at least partially so. Some very complex processes can no longer be managed by human beings anymore, except through AI. Retiring chief engineers who knew everything and how to troubleshoot highly complex systems had their knowledge and intuitions "downloaded" and codified (using a Turing-like extraction process) into systems. When we read a captivating novel or see a moving screenplay, we approach others' minds closely. We get intimate views their visions and their perspectives. Every time you or Largo writes something, we get to see your worlds and minds.

You know my complaints and ideas: (i) As HF has said, I'm a nihilist and sophist. I can't not know what's really true. (ii) As you note, an over-active mind can get carried away with itself.

. . . we shouldn't over think [the complexity of life], [as] it leads to inflating our perceived place in the universe.


I see that we're making everything up. I don't think there is anything wrong with A Constructed World THAT WORKS--until we take it concretely or drop-dead seriously.

On this thread I occasionally throw that monkey wrench in the machine now and then to remind folks that, for the most part, it's all concepts, semantics, stories, driven by emotional or ideological investments and commitments that we've made for ourselves.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2012 - 11:50pm PT
Who's John, and what will he do at 3:16
WBraun

climber
Dec 2, 2012 - 12:08am PT
John fell and broke his ankle at 3:16 ????
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 2, 2012 - 12:26am PT
Hey Drflorist
Have you ever tasted the flowers on those catti? I,ve tried dozens,
some of them are absolutely scrumptious! dice'em inta a salmon salad
sandwich MMmmmm.
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Dec 2, 2012 - 12:58am PT
"Who's John, and what will he do at 3:16"










Sigh...

:)
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 2, 2012 - 01:55am PT
Dr. F is quite serious. If you distill natural selection to its true implications, all each species is is a fancy vessel for passing on DNA.

It is an inevitable conclusion to the theory. That is why Dawkins wrote the book, "The Selfish Gene." It is a good book. It doesn't go into any of his atheist crap, which I find annoying from a good scientist.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 2, 2012 - 02:02am PT
Ed sez;

"What the manifestation of that description is doesn't have to look much like a "machine" at all... the biological processes that we hypothesize to provide the physical basis of life don't look much like machines, though they are."

and,
" It is true, that taking these physical ideas to their limits, that we could arrive at the idea that we could fully synthesize life "in a test tube.""

i,m still confused at WHAT you "mechanic types" describe as "Life"

i asked the "evolutioners" earlier to show me the "Life" in Plants.
Where is it? Theres no Brain,so theres no thought or emotions! Right?
A Tomato plant is just a vending machine.only you feed it water instead of quarters
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 2, 2012 - 05:16am PT
Dr. F is quite serious. If you distill natural selection to its true implications, all each species is is a fancy vessel for passing on DNA.

I think it can be taken down several notches to a more fundamental level and say it's the global pool of DNA on the planet which represents 'life'. And that global DNA pool always strives towards the optimum expression of species suited to the current state of the planet. Or, in mycological terms, we and all the other species of life are just the current 'fruiting bodies' of the global DNA pool and were 'expressed' as optimal responses to today's planetary conditions.

That what' important is the survival of as large and as diverse a global pool of DNA as possible, not the survival of any given species. That, if things get really tough - as in, say a comet strike - then whole classes, phylums, or kingdoms of species might be entirely expendable. And when you look at the various and sundry survival mechanisms which have evolved in sporaceous species and Tardigrada over time one one might be forgiven for viewing them as last-ditch mechanisms or 'lifeboats' for global DNA survival across catastrophic planetary events.

That's a bit more of a microbiological view of life, but still one with a lot of valid points to my way of thinking.
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