Politics, God and Religion vs. Science


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Nov 30, 2012 - 12:37pm PT
Dr F -- "none of them have any purpose,"

This means you have no brain .....


Social climber
joshua tree
Nov 30, 2012 - 01:28pm PT

" (Think of one single thing that one cannot make sense of.)"

OK I'll shoot. If the brain controls our body, and the mind controls our lives? Why would Man continue to smoke cigarettes and drink alcohol? The brain knows this is detrimental to the body. Being the number one and number two killers in the US. But people still struggle within
Their own minds to stop. We know in fact we are committing a slow suicide when partaking.
Where else in nature do we see this behavior? Have we evolved to anti-evolve?

Jus Question'in

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Nov 30, 2012 - 01:35pm PT
Dr F -- "none of them have any purpose,"

"This means you have no brain ....."

photo not found
Missing photo ID#276296


Social climber
joshua tree
Nov 30, 2012 - 01:48pm PT
Hey Dwain! ^^^^^ Scarecrow didnt have abrain.But he did have a conscience.He kept the birds from eat'in the veggies!

DRF asks? " Does an ant have purpose?"

What about the Bee or Hummingbird? Their existence goes way beyond procreation of their own species. 75% of their life is spent fertilizing plant life. which would cease to exist without the help of bees. Which in turn would probably cause the extinction of our species.
Wouldn't you call this a "purpose". I would consider this consciousness..

edit; Why are these "animals" attracted to certain vibrant colors? And not
More importantly; how do plants "know" why they need to display these colors?
SHOULDN'T you imagine a "Spiritual Conscience" at work between these "bags of matter". Or "jars of clay".

Jus Pollinate'in

Somewhere out there
Nov 30, 2012 - 03:10pm PT
MikeL wrote his brilliance:
(Think of one single thing that one cannot make sense of.)

 Let's see.... God watches while catholic priests molests a child....?

Makes perfect sense in a universe without purpose, but god types like to see he moves in mysterious ways....

Nov 30, 2012 - 03:30pm PT

I just don't think you're trying hard enough. You can come up with AN explanation if you really want to. It doesn't have to be right or provable.


"The mind enjoys stuff"?? Not sure what you're pointing to here. Say more if it's important.


Congrats! An explanation!

"Purpose" seems to be a peculiar and unwieldy idea to me here on the thread. What do people imagine "purpose" to be? Why is it important? Do people mean "function"? Do people mean "behavior?" Do people see "purpose" in light of the long arc of heredity, evolution, and history? Do people see "purpose" as a projection of those things in the past into the future? In all of these ideas, is there a sense of context (the universe, the environment, social settings, etc.), or should "purpose" be talked about individually, like an individual's internal motivations and initiatives?

What is the purpose of a shark? What is the purpose of the earth? What is the purpose of the universe? How can any of these be discussed intelligently in isolation, or in a context?

Here's the problem with all of this that appears to me: when one talks about purpose, one must concretize a definition of an object in question, which freezes its nature unrealistically. Nothing is stable, unchanging, or without a context. So as soon as the question is asked, it instantaneously puts itself outside any capability to answer it--least in any adequate or complete way. Only when one does not ask the question in any serious, concrete, and independent way can one have any adequate answer at all. Everything seems fluid, constantly changing, and defined by everything else contextually.

"Yeah right, Mike, that's nice and all (f*cking academics!!!), . . . but what should we do right now, at any point in time?"

My response to that question is: at any moment, you know what to do without getting "the thinking mind" involved. You know. I can't explain it. You use what some have called "the operational mind," which is different than the mind that thinks about itself (the personal identity) as a part of the question. You know, it's just like climbing: when you aren't doing but you're thinking about your identity or self, then you're not "functioning" efficiently or effectively.

If you like looking at mind as the brain, great. Just let it work. (You) get out of its way.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Nov 30, 2012 - 03:44pm PT
Pat Robertson discovers science.


Yeah, it's progress, but think of all the misdirection and misleadership, all the confusion and bullsh#t, all the waste and frustration this man has caused going back 20 - 30 years.

Growth is a project. Progress is hard.


re: Christian on Christian

Creationist Ken Ham Accuses Pat Robertson of ‘Destructive Teaching


What a league of morons.


mh2, thanks for the elaboration.

Dr. F.

Ice climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2012 - 05:07pm PT
I pollinate my plants in my greehouse by hand!

If bees weren't around, the plants would have evolved another method in order to have sex.

The plants USES the bees to transfer pollen to another plant, so the bee has no purpose in of itself

Nov 30, 2012 - 08:11pm PT

You sure that isn't Michael Palin? I half expected some skit (which would of course be uncontrollably hysterical).

Edit: "And now, for something completely different--God and the afterlife!"

Hebrews 1:3
Nov 30, 2012 - 09:29pm PT
Holiday tree anyone?

Bill O’Reilly Confronts Atheist Leader And His ‘Merry Band Of Fascists’ Over The War On Christmas


What a treetard!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Nov 30, 2012 - 09:43pm PT
Yeah, as I'm esp big on the strategy of reframing... reframing the conversation (the language)... reframing the narrative and its elements... reframing the beliefs and what not ... as means to new and better ways of thinking and doing in the practice of living... that exchange caught my attention, too.

According to Bill, Christianity is no longer a religion (how about that?!), now it is a philosophy...


That Bill, he's a smooth one. Luckily, though, from practice around here, we are experienced in it and can see through it. ;)



Hear, hear! for yet another evolutionary step on the internet. I've downloaded in flash (.flv) for a couple years (download rates: variable at 45 to 200 kB/s); recently I rediscovered mp4 for my tablet, and as a result I discovered download rates approaching 2Mb/sec. How cool is that?! What a pleasure to download at such a fantastic rate. Evolution in all manner of forms rocks!

Nov 30, 2012 - 10:52pm PT
HFCS -- "as means to new and better ways of thinking"

Even a dog thinks, people think in all different sorts of ways.

It's called mental speculation.

The dog thinks all sorts of new ways to get the bone from his master.

Only the master knows when the bone will come to the dog .......

Somewhere out there
Nov 30, 2012 - 11:54pm PT
The dog thinks all sorts of new ways to get the bone from his master.

Only the master knows when the bone will come to the dog .......

 Werner has a bone he's keeping from his dog in order to make his point…..

Just speculation

Dec 1, 2012 - 02:50am PT
MikeL said:

The mind is infinitely energetic and creative. It does nothing but Make Sense.

The mind does more than Make Sense. Mine does, anyway. My mind delights in forms, colors, sounds, scents, warmth, cold, pressure, and small details seen or heard or remembered that catch my mind unaware with their little or long levers and move my feelings. No sense required. Things just feel good, or they don't. There is no bogey-man urge to know and understand everything. I estimate that I spend about 85% of my waking hours with no conscious thought in my head, yet my mind is aware of what is around me and what I am doing. What I am claiming is that the mind does more than make sense. It can receive information without trying to place it in folders.

In science, though, one should be on the lookout for the result that doesn't make sense. It may teach you something new.

Hebrews 1:3
Dec 1, 2012 - 06:15am PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#276378

Psalm 86:8 Among the gods there is none like You, O Lord;
Nor are there any works like Your works.
9 All nations whom You have made
Shall come and worship before You, O Lord,
And shall glorify Your name.
10 For You are great, and do wondrous things;
You alone are God.

11 Teach me Your way, O Lord;
I will walk in Your truth;
Unite my heart to fear Your name.
12 I will praise You, O Lord my God, with all my heart,
And I will glorify Your name forevermore.
13 For great is Your mercy toward me,
And You have delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol.

Luke 18:19 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.

James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. 18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth

Matthew 5:48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Romans 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

John 6:38-40 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. 26 Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. 28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 1, 2012 - 01:03pm PT
I'm hoping this thread ends up an unforeseen beneficiary of Largo's untimely fall from grace.

Dec 1, 2012 - 01:27pm PT
Yes. I have a hard time picturing a good computer scientist whose ambition is to create a sentient machine. As Werner pointed out, we already know how to do that and we have about 7 billion examples. It may become possible to build machines that organize themselves and learn from experience somewhat as we do, but unless we can discover principles and rules that let us direct those machines along predictable trajectories we haven't learned much. For research purposes it is still better to view the brain as a kluge of many parts, each with a different job to do. However, the way the parts cooperate in serving the interests of the individual suggests that there are strategies evolution discovered that we haven't.

Somewhere out there
Dec 1, 2012 - 01:47pm PT

Just know, religious folks, it is possible to live your life without god

(Specifically listen to Joe Rogan's piece… Makes more sense than any of your gods)

Dec 1, 2012 - 01:55pm PT
it is possible to live your life without god

Completely impossible to do.

It's never ever been done period. EVER!

Everything in the entire material cosmic manifestation is none other than his variegated energies and what to speak of the entire infinite superior spiritual manifestations.

Life comes from Life .......

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 1, 2012 - 03:00pm PT
I have a hard time picturing a good computer scientist whose ambition is to create a sentient machine.

Why do you have a hard time picturing this? There have been many ambitions which seemed loony at the time, religion or not.

Can a man fly?

Can a man cure disease?

Just about any question that you can think about is being worked on furiously, and artificial intelligence is indeed a hot topic. The only reason you can't imagine it is that you probably don't keep up with science very much. There are at least a couple of institutes that do absolutely nothing but work on artificial intelligence.

There are many examples such as this. Already computers are being programmed with evolutionary software. I read that the design of cellphones used a lot of evolutionary software. Try this, it doesn't work, learn from that mistake, try something else, and on and on.

This type of code is already here, and I would bet yours and mine asses that a truly self replicating computer with only a few basic evolutionary rules are already being worked on. I know for a fact that you can simulate evolution rather easily on a computer by writing a simple model with a few basic rules. I am good friends with the guy who is credited with writing the first software which accomplished this. It is very interesting. They let it run and all sorts of things popped up like parasites, that hadn't even been programmed in. This was back in the nineties and he is a fairly famous guy. Thomas Ray. My next door neighbor, who teaches evolution here at the University of Oklahoma, about ten blocks away.

We used to have monthly get togethers, invitation only, of a few people to just discuss strange ideas and aske each other questions. They used to be called "Chautauquas," and were quite popular 80 or 90 years ago.

To be asked to join, you have to be pretty smart on a number of topics. Politics is never discussed, just science, so it is a group of scientists of varying backgrounds including Physics. I get to go just because of the massive size of my brain.

A guy like The Chief wouldn't be invited. He doesn't create ideas, he is more of an idea spewer. Sort of like a really bad musician who thinks he is great. Neil Young said that about Charles Manson. Manson lived in the canyon near Young's and a bunch of the other 60's era musicians and would write and sing songs. I saw an interview with Young on the topic of Manson and he said that he wasn't really a songwriter, he was a "songspewer."

We haven't done one in a while, but they are pretty cool. A lot of the talk is about Dr. Ray's current work, but we all feel free to attack it and ask hard questions. It is a lot of fun. That guy knows an incredible amount about neurotransmitters and hallucinogenic drugs. It flows over into what each chemical's job is in the brain and into mental illness and psychotropic drugs. Super interesting stuff.

It is sort of the opposite of going to bible study. In bible study you learn to interpret a single thing. No real discontent with ideas is allowed. In these discussions any idea is allowed, and the idea of religion vs. science has popped up more than once.

Great fun. Buy a couple of bottles of wine and spend five afternoon hours bouncing new ideas off of each other. It is pretty much a purely science group from differing backgrounds. It can get pretty heated at times, but that is just good discussion. If you want to talk nice and eat tiny sandwiches, you go to a party. These are not parties.

I need to kickstart it up again. Lots of fun.
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