Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 23, 2012 - 05:17pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Oct 23, 2012 - 05:18pm PT


Really?

Tell us more
That's what atheists do?
That's their tendency?

Nope, I was just kidding. Hitler, Stalin, and Mao were all bible banging Baptist fundamentalists.
Throw in that Catholic Mussolini and you got a Sunday school class.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 23, 2012 - 05:26pm PT
Are they part of the modern atheist crowd?
You're insane
stay away from politics, please

Hitler was a Christian/Catholic, if you haven't heard
Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Oct 23, 2012 - 05:36pm PT


Are they part of the modern atheist crowd?
You're insane
stay away from politics, please

Hitler was a Christian/Catholic, if you haven't heard

Hitler was a Religious devotee. Huh. Didn't that.
Your historical knowledge is unmatchable.

"......the modern atheist crowd"
By that you mean the "hip" "today" "Now" "progressive" atheist bunch.

Poor Hitler...I mean what does a fella have to do to prove he's just one of the 'atheist' guys.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 23, 2012 - 05:47pm PT
All three of your examples of the atheist crowd were Hard core right wingers, just like you.

They were the exact opposites of normal liberals, atheists, or Democrats; then or Now.
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Oct 23, 2012 - 05:47pm PT
"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."
 Adolf Hitler, to General Gerhard Engel, 1941

"I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal."
 Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 1

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. ...Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross...."
 Adolf Hitler, speech on April 12, 1922

So.... yeah.
Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Oct 23, 2012 - 06:09pm PT
Are you guys serious ?
Mr. Cintune, you need a reality check.
Hitler fooled a lot of people to achieve the evil that he wrought.
Apparently his words are still working their magic all these years later.
You may be the only person I currently know who would take Hitler's comments on his religiosity at face value.

Dr. Frykenweenie , on the other hand, is intellectually tone deaf and thoroughly ignorant of history before the summer of love in 1967.
MH2

climber
Oct 23, 2012 - 06:10pm PT
We are looking to the wrong examples. Here is what we want:


"I used to work in HgCdTe. When I retired we had still not gotten defect densities down for HCT epilayers on sapphire. It is a lattice matching bear even by molecular beam epi. Also they are running hot optics and that produces high levels of background coming from the system. Not good. Not good. Probably run at constant temperature to gain dimensional stability. Don't know what the mirrors were built using. You want to be limited by background from the scene. You are up in space after all."








In my imaginary example, "now" is whatever metric for "time since the Big Bang" that you prefer. If you are a photon it doesn't matter. But they are just the messengers. To read a clock you need information transfer. We currently use an isotope of cesium "at rest."
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Oct 23, 2012 - 06:28pm PT
You may be the only person I currently know who would take Hitler's comments on his religiosity at face value.

Duh, that's the whole point. You can't trust someone based on their public displays of piety. So how does that reflect back on this allegedly perfected moral curriculum, if it can be so easily co-opted by the worst of the worst?
jstan

climber
Oct 23, 2012 - 06:47pm PT
I wonder what it is like to take positions as is being done here?
It must be a little like being in a contest where

first prize is to drink beer with Mitt for one week

while

second prize is to drink beer with Mitt for two weeks.


Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 23, 2012 - 06:52pm PT
Explain how materialistic thinking and spirtualistic thinking are both done and how they are different? Particularly, make it clear how to determine exactly which mode one is in. If you will.


I might have a much different take on this than others, but I'll take a whack at it, John.

"Materialist thinking" as you used the word is literally "thinking" about or at any rate evaluating the stuff we encounter in our lives. Without this function we would perish or go broke. Key to this "mode" is our ability to narrow focus, to varying degrees, on a car or a rock or a centipede and for our discursive mind to work "it" over in it's standard fact finding c#m analytical way. In this way we come to "know" something and can take appropriate action - IOWs, we can DO something, which is the point after all.

"Spiritualistic thinking" must mean something to someone, but it is a non-sequitur to me. In every spiritual practice I know of the aim is to detach from thinking and for a while anyway, to simply observe the monkey mind spuing thoughts and qualia like a gattling gun. The aim here is not to keep watching the barrage till you see the silver bullet, but to slowly become aware of the backdrop or context in which all these things arise.

Whereas the aim of the first (material) mode is to know in order to do, the aim of the second mode is to be (as in "human being") in order to know. But his "knowing " pertains not to the "10,000 things," or pearls, in Healyj's language, but in the ocean itself.

There is nothing remotely supernatural or wu wu in this process, but it throws people generally for two reasons: A) they are not used to using their minds in this way, and get so swamped by the demands of their rational minds that they go back to thinking, or B) they can't imagine what they will get out of the process or what value is in it, so they can't even get started.

Put differently, to answer your question: "Make it clear how to determine exactly which mode one is in." If your focus is narrow and grocked onto something, you're in material mode; if your focus is wide open (Open Focus) and you're not attaching words to your experience, you're in "spiritual" mode.

JL





healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 23, 2012 - 07:11pm PT
Werner: Largo has been trying to dive deep to find the elusive Perl

'Pearls' aren't my language, I was just comp'ing on Werner's language in trying to figure our just what pearls had been surfaced to-date in this thread.

A philosophical question, though - how does qualia fit into 6:45?
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 23, 2012 - 07:26pm PT
What if you are living in the complete moment of the now (most or all of the time), and it seems the same as being spiritually enlightened?

How can you tell if you are, or not?
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Oct 23, 2012 - 07:47pm PT
The problem with this thread as I see it is that we never have discussed spirituality. Rather people have belittled and condemned antiquated religious notions of the origins of the universe and life on earth, and equated those obsolete notions with all of religion and religion with all of spirituality.

I have noted several times that the origins of things is a minor concern of most religion but that has been ignored. Because religion is multi-functional, I have also doubted that science by having a superior explanation of origins, is going to supercede religion. Rather, I see religion adapting itself to science over time, as much of it already has done.

Religion itself has sometimes fostered spirituality and sometimes not. Some religious people with no knowledge of science are very spiritual, some scientists with no interest in religion are very spiritual, and most people muddle down the middle with a little science, a little religion, and toward the end of their life a little attempt at spirituality.

So what is spirituality? Blueblocr gave a pretty good definition though with some religious overtones I wouldn't necessarily agree with. The point which I've made often, is that science and spirituality use different sides of the brain and religion floats between them, sometimes logical, sometimes intuitive. Therefore, attempts to explain science with intuition, imagination, art, poetry, etc. are futile and attempts by science to prove God by demanding the revelation of a new science theorem are laughable. And one of the ultimate proofs of spirituality - humility - shows that we're all lacking.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 23, 2012 - 07:54pm PT
Cromney's Fake Magic Underwear…


How can I possibly vote for that shite?
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 23, 2012 - 07:54pm PT
But Jan

What if there is No God?
what becomes of all the religions that are based on God,
No God, and the religion is completely without it's source of magic

No after life, no judgement, no purpose?

The existence of God is the Most Important question that ever be contemplated, it is central to any discussions about spirituality, religions, creation, and so much more.

why do the believers have such a had time discussing this subject.

Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 23, 2012 - 07:58pm PT
No God, and the religion is completely without it's source of magic

No after life, no judgement, no purpose?


Double that!!!
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Oct 23, 2012 - 08:01pm PT
Dr. F-

Largo can correct me if I'm wrong according to the tenets of Zen anyway, but as I understand your question, to live in the moment is a major step along the way to enlightenment but it is not enlightenment per se.

One can be in the moment, and still have plenty of ego and all its attachments, and not be particularly benevolent toward other living beings. One can, if intuitive, live in the moment, and be oblivious to one's nonchalent and irresponsible effect on others while one spaces out. Traditionally, this was called the erroneous path of quietism.

To be enlightened, one must have mastered one's ego attachments and have changed one's perspective from self to others along the way. However the last tricky part of becoming enlightened from what I have read, is the desire for enlightenment. When that is gone, the ego has overcome its last attachment and one lives in the world completely in the moment, putting others before self.

Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 23, 2012 - 08:06pm PT
are there many of these so called "enlightened ones"?

Does living in the moment have a term to use to describe it.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 23, 2012 - 08:16pm PT
A philosophical question, though - how does qualia fit into 6:45?

I use the word qualia to denote anything that passes through awareness and that we experience - so at 6:45 the whole wide world and hell and Devils all fit into the equation.

JL
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