WBraun
climber
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If you took apart a car and it had the same parts as another car, couldn't you conclude that they operated in similar fashion?
But there's the driver missing in your question that's far more important.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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certainly that is part of our "theory of mind" that other people are like us, therefore we conclude that their "internal state" is like us... the dark side to this is that those people who are not like us are different... we have experiences of both of these kinds of thinking.
Interesting that the procedure for recovery from anesthesia, the use of the "Clinical Recovery Score" to evaluate the patient includes a score for "Consciousness", and has the assigned points:
0 - unresponsive to verbal stimulation
1 - responsive to verbal stimulation
2 - fully awake
(see, e.g. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2148743/pdf/anesthprog00250-0017.pdf)
which suggests a sort of generalized Turing Test, which has to do with verbal responsiveness...
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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I don't know if they've experienced things that I haven't that have led them to different beliefs.
Fet: why does it matter to you?
Maybe I read this wrong, but are you saying that it's important that others think like you or vice versa?
Is this also Ed's reason for demanding proof that others are conscious or have the same kind of consciousness as he does?
Honestly, I don't get it.
It matters to me because; 1. I find it interesting that other people think differently from me, 2. It helps me understand them, and 3. It helps me be a little less self righteous and admit I don't know all the answers.
Yes you read it wrong. I'm saying that I have a good idea of why others don't think like me because they may have had experiences and thoughts that led them to a different understanding of the universe. And who am I to say which one of us is correct, when I don't know what they've experienced or how they think. In the same token they don't know what I've experienced and how I think, so they can claim I'm wrong and they are right but if they can't prove it somehow it doesn't really change my beliefs.
On another note, I understand my belief system is different from most people in that my system doesn't depend on adherence to a specific dogma. So I am ok with admitting I could be wrong, but I understand how other's belief systems wouldn't allow that.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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I guess it's a noble cause for scientists to try and prove there's a conscience?
And to try and build a machine that mimics it. Then we would have robots right.
As long as it's not my tax dollars funding it!
Because I could save them some money. Commonsense,morals,the ability to feel bad when we break our morals. these are actions that predicate a conscious for me. I believe all living creatures that have an eyeball have a soul and thus a conscience. Plants and trees? The ability that a seed has to know to grow into a mighty Oaktree. Maybe. But why don't they show Any instinct to protect themselves?
It's obviously a question from an atheist. It must be weird walking around not knowing you're alive.
Jus Know'in
BB
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WBraun
climber
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But why don't they show Any instinct to protect themselves?
There was an Indian scientist many years ago who made a meter and hooked up to plants.
He then approached the plant with a tool to cut it but did not actually do so and the meter immediately responded with movements.
Thus his conclusions although the plant is a conscious living entity rooted and could not escape but exhibited the same fear of being harmed.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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It sounds like some folks here are advocating that consciousness is more than just physical processes.
Sorry I haven't read all the posts regarding this but I'm curious, and no disrespect intended, does that mean only human consciousness? Or is animal consciousness included?
To me there seems to be a clear evolution of consciousness in the animal kingdom. Simple, small, less evolved creatures have limited capabilities, while the complex, large, more evolved creatures have more and more capabilities. To me dogs seems to clearly have emotions and a small amount of critical thinking ability. Dolphins seem to be smarter still.
But of course humans are leaps and bounds above other animals. The fossil record of human evolution points to some interesting environmental adaptions resulting in a larger / smarter human brain. And the development of language not only needed a smart brain to power it, but gives the brain a framework to think more complex thoughts.
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WBraun
climber
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Yes ^^^^
All living entities original attribute exhibit consciousness.
Quantum physics, cannot be explained without invoking consciousness.
This means life is a different entity than normal physics and chemistry.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Werner
Modern scientists have recorded that plants exhibit electrical movement whenever we talk to them. They say that it's the CO2's? coming from our breath. But I wonder if they can sense the water in our bodies. When I water my cacti you can literally sit there and watch them move as they puff up with water
I wonder if that Indian scientist approached the tree with a hose if he would got the same meter reading?
Jus Breath'in
BB
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WBraun
climber
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When he approached the plant with no intent to harm it the meter barely moved.
Only when he approached the plant with the intent to harm it (without touching it) did the meter have rapid wild swings.
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Ron Anderson
Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
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does the blu agavi scream when harvested for Cabo-Wabo??
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Dr. F.
Ice climber
SoCal
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2012 - 10:07am PT
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When you water them, they expand with the water that they take up for storage for dryer times.
They are not talking back to you.
No plant has ever talked to me, but they are my babies, and I like quiet babies
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Quantum physics, cannot be explained without invoking consciousness.
this is not a correct statement at all.
The "measurement problem" of quantum mechanics arrives when one insists on making a physically realistic interpretation of quantum mechanics. That is more an aesthetic than a scientific necessity... the fact that quantum mechanics works exquisitely well making accurate and precise predictions is necessary and sufficient.
For all but you speculating philosophers out there.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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"He then approached the plant with a tool to cut it but did not actually do so and the meter immediately responded with movements."
Sorry but I say that this is pure B.S. It is propaganda by the tree hugging extreme. Where is the second attempt to do this by another disinterested party? No scientists or rational person believes stuff until they have a second opinion. Humans are scum and the only way to have chance at believing someone is to get the same info from another source.
Next, you'll say that The Force is in rocks too.
Provide a link or ISBN or other document ID to the where this was published if you will insist that it really happened.
Dave
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WBraun
climber
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Quantum physics, cannot be explained without invoking consciousness.
Oh yes it is correct, no dead matter is explaining it.
You are conscious living entity and you are explaining it consciously.
There is no explaining being done by an unconscious dead entity (dead).
Invoking
Cite or appeal to (someone or something) as an authority for an action or in support of an argument.
Since you Ed are an authority on Quantum physics you have just in your previous post consciously invoked on the subject of Quantum physics.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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OH OH WE NEED CHONGO!
Where's chuck when U need him?
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Dr. F.
Ice climber
SoCal
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2012 - 01:28pm PT
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Monstrose
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Dr. F.
Ice climber
SoCal
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2012 - 01:29pm PT
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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the explanation of quantum mechanics is separate from quantum mechanics, at least when we use a model of the world that separates into "objective" and "subjective" realms.
I know this is a classic western dichotomy which has centuries of philosophical criticism, but for a scientist these criticisms seem rather irrelevant.
We know that the universe was here long before there were humans.
Presuming that human consciousness had to await the existence of humans, the universe was roughly 9 billion years old before the evolution of humans on the Earth.
The universe has many observed aspects that can be explained by quantum mechanical processes, thus we infer that these processes happened, and long before humans.
Therefore, quantum mechanics does not require human consciousness to exist.
Now Largo, MikeL, Werner and others may repeat their refrain that without human "subjective" experience what happened in the universe is of little relevance. And that is probably correct, but the universe certainly doesn't have to wait around for consciousness to be found or lost to do its own thing, presuming the dichotomy above.
We don't have to presume, but that dichotomy is very powerful and represents a very good approximation to how the universe works, as we know it. However it works, it works in such a way that is well approximated by our assumption of an "objective" reality.
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MikeL
climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
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Some great posts. Good reading.
Thanks, Ed, for answering my question above. Very helpful.
Thanks, Fet, also for the response. For me, the more varied the differences in social groups, the more an organism (or organization) can adapt to new environments. Variety = Good.
"Objective" vs. "subjective" is losing its fascination for me here, Ed. All I can say for sure is that I'm aware. The academic questions are becoming a little empty for me recently. I'm not here to argue anything in particular. So much seems like a game to me. In all likelihood, everyone is right.
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Malemute
Ice climber
the ghost
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Quantum physics, cannot be explained without invoking consciousness. http://vaniquotes.org/wiki/Physics_%28Conversations%29
More cut & paste from Werner, just as devoid of original thought as Gobee.
(and the quote is not found elsewhere on the web)
Welcome to Vaniquotes, an unparalleled repository of statements of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda grouped together via themes, personalities, scriptures and the usage of language.
http://vaniquotes.org/wiki/Main_Page
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