Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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jstan

climber
Nov 24, 2012 - 10:39pm PT
rocks don't have consciousness

Jan:
I hate to do this but....

Can you give us a link to the data showing this?

Up thread we also seem to have reached the decision we can't agree what consciousness is.

cf: Das Rad

A short subject from 2003
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2012 - 10:45pm PT
If earth's atmosphere is filled with the invisible waves of various technologies, why would the rest of the universe not be filled with information well?

Man put that information out there

You need a brain and central command center to broadcast information

That's another reason why us atheists do not believe there is a God, there is no information out there from any other source, nor any cosmic brain or command center to broadcast the information.

A sun, planet, or a galaxy can not be a brain, nor the entire universe combined, there is nothing out there that is organised in any way that can act as a brain or spirit consciousness.

That makes sense, speculating that information is out there when it has no source does not.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2012 - 10:48pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
MH2

climber
Nov 24, 2012 - 10:56pm PT
we can't agree what consciousness is


Why not use the Glasgow Coma Scale?
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2012 - 10:59pm PT
My mental speculations would say that rocks, viruses, bacteria, fungi and plants have No consciousness.
You need a nervous system to create consciousness.

Higher animals do have some sort of it, from low levels to higher, according to the evolutionary tree.
I wonder how insects think, what kind of consciousness do they have?
jstan

climber
Nov 24, 2012 - 10:59pm PT
From what I see that scale requires we whack people upside the head first. I would do that only in a few very special cases.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Nov 24, 2012 - 11:00pm PT
healeyje - thanks. I see what you mean by definitions.

jstan - regarding rock consciousness, touche!

Dr. F - stating that consciousness must have a brain is exactly the sort of embodied carbon based thinking I was referring to. And who's to say the source of outside consciousness has to be within the physical universe in order to permeate said universe?

I understand thinking so is a leap of faith but denying the possibility is also a leap of faith. We've got a big homo sapiens brain so why not use it for something once in a while besides deconstructing matter?
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2012 - 11:02pm PT
Where is it Jan?

Humans have never witnessed it except from carbon based life forms.

Please show us some examples of consciousness with out a Brain.

I'm not denying it isn't possible, but saying it may exist, just to fulfill mans need for a God and a higher purpose, well is the same as me saying the spaghetti monster is real, because we can't prove he doesn't exist.
MH2

climber
Nov 24, 2012 - 11:02pm PT
Ah. Well, no wonder there is confusion.
jstan

climber
Nov 24, 2012 - 11:04pm PT
Please show us some examples of consciousness with out a Brain.

I shall do my best to be nice.

I shall do my best to be nice.

I shall do my best to be nice.

I shall do my best to be nice.

I shall do my best to be nice.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Nov 24, 2012 - 11:13pm PT
rocks don't have consciousness

Luke 19:28 When He had said this, He went on ahead, going up to Jerusalem. 29 And it came to pass, when He drew near to Bethphage and Bethany, at the mountain called Olivet, that He sent two of His disciples, 30 saying, “Go into the village opposite you, where as you enter you will find a colt tied, on which no one has ever sat. Loose it and bring it here. 31 And if anyone asks you, ‘Why are you loosing it?’ thus you shall say to him, ‘Because the Lord has need of it.’”

32 So those who were sent went their way and found it just as He had said to them. 33 But as they were loosing the colt, the owners of it said to them, “Why are you loosing the colt?”

34 And they said, “The Lord has need of him.” 35 Then they brought him to Jesus. And they threw their own clothes on the colt, and they set Jesus on him. 36 And as He went, many spread their clothes on the road.

37 Then, as He was now drawing near the descent of the Mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works they had seen, 38 saying:

“ ‘Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord!’
Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!”

39 And some of the Pharisees called to Him from the crowd, “Teacher, rebuke Your disciples.”

40 But He answered and said to them, “I tell you that if these should keep silent, the stones would immediately cry out.”
WBraun

climber
Nov 24, 2012 - 11:14pm PT
That's another reason why us atheists do not believe there is a God, there is no information out there from any other source, nor any cosmic brain or command center to broadcast the information.

A sun, planet, or a galaxy can not be a brain, nor the entire universe combined, there is nothing out there that is organised in any way that can act as a brain or spirit consciousness.

Typical narcissistic screwball thinking.

There's only me only me only me only me only only on and on and on.

That's how narcissist talk and think
MH2

climber
Nov 24, 2012 - 11:14pm PT
Well, jstan?
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2012 - 11:18pm PT
How would a consciousness with out a brain or nervous system work?

Does it happen like in the movies, with colored lights and sparks?

What is the force that energises it, how is it configured?
Or does it just create itself out of nothing, like God.
Is there a central command center, that puts out the info?, and decides karma and where you go after death?

So many questions, and zero answers.
Yet, the scientific method has already answered this question,
It does not happen, it's all man made fantasy.
and all the questions are answered in one easy to understand truth.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Nov 24, 2012 - 11:21pm PT
^^^^^^^^ Yea our DNA flew in on a comet?^^^^^^

jan said

" At first panpsychism seems extreme - rocks don't have consciousness,"
___

Yogalanda. the enlightened mystic said,

"God sleeps in the minerals", and,

" Consciousness is already present in the material universe "
___

Soooo, do you disagree with both extreme "ism's"
WBraun

climber
Nov 24, 2012 - 11:25pm PT
So many questions, and zero answers.
Yet, the scientific method has already answered this question,
It does not happen, it's all man made fantasy.
and all the questions are answered in one easy to understand truth.


More narcissism .....
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Nov 24, 2012 - 11:31pm PT
Dr. F, I don't think science has answered the question at all, nor traditional religion either. That doesn't mean that it isn't still a valid question and that it doesn't have an answer. And that very likely the answer is beyond our evolved ape brains to understand.

In the absence of comprehension let alone provability, I do see why the science types would want to stick with what they can prove, but don't you ever wonder? My guess is that for many science fiction takes the place of theology or philosophy when you do speculate.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2012 - 11:38pm PT
And that very likely the answer is beyond our evolved ape brains to understand.
Why?

Why can't we understand it?
To me, that's just being an apologist,
Have no proof, just say our brains can't understand it, problem solved.

To me, that is a cop out and just an excuse for having no proof.
What can't we understand??
what things are out there that are too hard for our little brains to observe and investigate.
Since that's all we need to do, just observe the phenomenon, we don't have to understand it completely.
Just the acknowledgemnet of it's existance is enough for science and our little brains, then we can work to understand it.

What exists without proof of it's existence?
What is there that our brains can't understand?
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Nov 24, 2012 - 11:41pm PT
blueblocr-

It is my personal experience that there is consciousness present within the universe. It is also my experience after reading tens of thousands of exchanges on this and other similar threads, that I will never prove it to the satisfaction of science or the scientists who participate here. I do think about it all more precisely however, thanks to their criticisms.

I also know from a long past experience of studying and participating in many religions, that none of them from my point of view, have anything more than a limited understanding of the consciousness in the universe that some of their members feel they have encountered. Even that limited understanding however, is seldom lived up to.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Nov 24, 2012 - 11:43pm PT
Dr F, this has got to be my last post today but I think us trying to imagine a greater consciousness is about like a cat trying to understand human speech. They hear sounds but can't make sense of it though they do recognize changes in tone.
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