Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Nov 2, 2012 - 12:07am PT
But even if we can't capture in full the inundating awesomeness of "the flow," that needn't stop us from talking about it:


I totally agree with that statement. That's what art is about to some extent, and quite possibly why the vorpal blade went snicker-snack! Measure that one smarty pants. . .

Arrrg

JL
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:37pm PT
No people, you're wrong. Your "atheism" didn't bring you here... your science education and your good reasoning skills... along with your modern understanding that angels and demons and other old-world theological constructs don't exist (they're made up !) and its time to get real and to move on... brought you here.

So welcome to the club!

.....

Be at peace with your struggle and commitment to adapt, to grow.

.....

Theologians explain the suffering caused by Hurricane Sandy...

http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2012/11/01/theologians-explains-the-suffering-caused-by-hurricane-sandy/

"Not one of these theologians has suggested that the historical difficulty of explaining certain evils as part of God’s plan may suggest that God doesn’t exist at all."

Jerry Coyne
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Nov 2, 2012 - 03:20pm PT
One would think, with all this endless fighting (a) between theists and theists and (b) between theists and atheists, there would be a name for it.

There isn't. So this outlier will coin one... theistomachy.

.....

re: theistomachy

theistomachy: (1) the practice otherwise art of fighting with theists regarding God, Gods or theology; (2) the practice otherwise art of fighting with atheists regarding God, Gods or theology

(Turns out, it is a passion if not a raison d'être for many an atheist and theist the world over, esp on the internet.)


Usage: While climbing Crescent Arch with Sam Harris a couple of weeks ago, he confessed to me he was no more an atheist or theistomachean than a anastrologer or a geocentrist or a nonstampcollector.

Usage: My prediction: In less than 100 years, theism (e.g., Abrahamic theism) and theistomachy are going to be relics, relic modes of thought. (So enjoy them while they last?)

Usage: I think more than 11,000 posts on this debate thread points to the rabid theistomachy that exists among and between some climbers at supertopo, lol! (But then this is okay as arguably the times call for it. Or not?)

Usage: Please, your incessant theistomachy is giving me a headache!
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Nov 2, 2012 - 04:37pm PT
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Nov 2, 2012 - 05:38pm PT
Fruitcake, I think you have made it abundantly clear that you believe with every atom of your soul that:

A) A science education - perhaps similar to your own - and good reasoning skills will save humanity.

B) That angels and demons - presented as metaphors in the first instance - are not "real" entities.

C) That theists and their literal interpretation of allegories and creatioin myths - with Abrahamic hogwash tossed is as well - are the true and everlasting "turds in the punch bowl."

If we agree with you, will you stop whipping that same ass? I'm getting kinder sick of hearing it bray . . .

JL
Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Nov 2, 2012 - 06:10pm PT
I suggest ye get thine ass back to the politics thread so that this thread doesn't go down the toilet. It has been going on for two years, and frankly, even people with wildly differing opinions get along great 99% of the time.

Suggestion taken annnnnnnnd
Forthwith ignored.

Mr Base:
Don't go a-gettin on my radar purposely.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 2, 2012 - 08:05pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
An alien life form
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Nov 2, 2012 - 08:44pm PT
"Long ago, before the Great Flood, the Great Ones walked the earth, and the giant trees, even those which now are no more than legend, were their home and their kingdom. They lived many score of generations, for they ate from the table of the Earthly Mother, and slept in the arms of the Heavenly Father, and they knew not disease, old age, nor death. To the Sons of Men did they bequeath all the glory of their kingdoms, even the hidden knowledge of the Tree of Life which stands in the middle of the Eternal Sea. But the eyes of the Sons of Men were blinded by the visions of Satan, and by promises of power, even that power which conquers by might and by blood. And then did the Son of Man sever the golden threads that bound him to his Earthly Mother and his Heavenly Father; he stepped from the Holy Stream of Life where his body, his thoughts, and his feelings were one with the Law, and began to use only his own thoughts, his own feelings, and his own deeds, making hundreds of laws, where before there was only One.

And so did the Sons of Men exile themselves from their home, and ever since have they huddled behind their stone walls, hearing not the sighing of the wind in the tall trees of the forests beyond their towns.

I tell you truly, the Book of Nature is a Holy Scroll, and if you would have the Sons of Men save themselves and find everlasting life, teach them how once again to read from the living pages of the Earthly Mother. For in everything that is life is the law written."

from the ancient Essene Gospel of Peace scrolls
jstan

climber
Nov 2, 2012 - 10:50pm PT
We must be descended from dogs. Given access to a bag of dog food, dogs stop eating only when the bag is empty.

Now, back to consciousness?

Edit: The evidence is very clear. A random number generator can now pass the Turing test in the US.
MH2

climber
Nov 2, 2012 - 11:21pm PT
OK. I googled, "Has anyone passed the Turing test?" I learned that humans are judged to be human about 2/3s of the time. Also see Cleverbot.


edit:

"A result of 50 per cent or more is often considered to be a pass,"

Ah hah.


http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20865-software-tricks-people-ino-thinking-it-is-human.html
jstan

climber
Nov 2, 2012 - 11:51pm PT
WHITE WHALE spent 4 years trying to tell us something, then stopped

Startled diver 'given orders in English,' say boffins
By Lewis Page

Posted in Science, 23rd October 2012 12:49 GMT

A young Beluga whale spent four years apparently trying to speak English recently, according to scientists in California. The cetacean's enunciation was apparently clear enough that it was actually discovered when the creature ordered a startled diver to get out of the water.

“The whale’s vocalizations often sounded as if two people were conversing in the distance,” says Dr Sam Ridgway, President of the National Marine Mammal Foundation. “These ‘conversations’ were heard several times before the whale was eventually identified as the source. In fact, we discovered it when a diver mistook the whale for a human voice giving him underwater directions.”

The whale in question was a young white beluga named "NOC", resident at the Foundation. According to an NMMF statement:

As soon as the whale was identified as the source, NMMF scientists recorded his speech-like episodes both in air and underwater, studying the physiology behind his ability to mimic. It’s believed that the animals close association with humans played a role in how often he employed his ‘human’ voice, as well as in its quality. Researchers believe NOC’s sonic behavior is an example of vocal learning by a white whale. After about four years, NOC’s speech-like behavior subsided.

“When NOC matured, we no longer heard speech-like sounds, but he did remain quite vocal,” Ridgway says.

The doc and colleagues from California uni and the US Navy's marine-mammal units (which are mainly staffed by dolphins) have published a paper in the journal Current Biology on the amazing speech-like efforts of the while whale, which you can also sample in the vid above.

If you believe in American literary tradition - perhaps based on a real animal - this is not the first white whale to bring a message to humanity: but it would seem that NOC's message is an altogether cheerier one. ®

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/10/23/whale_speaks_english/

This link has recordings of the whale’s speech.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Nov 3, 2012 - 12:50am PT

"As soon as the whale was identified as the source, NMMF scientists recorded his speech-like episodes both in air and underwater, studying the physiology behind his ability to mimic."

Maybe if you crossbred it with a parrot you could get a human?

Jus Talk'in
BB
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Nov 3, 2012 - 01:37am PT
humans are not the only people or even the only intelligent people, just the most barbaric and myopic
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Nov 3, 2012 - 11:41am PT
We must be descended from dogs. Given access to a bag of dog food, dogs stop eating only when the bag is empty.

As I have said, my work heavily leans on tiny invertebrate fossils, as well as leaves in certain outcrops and the like. I don't work dinosaurs.

However, after the K/T extinction, which is generally believed to be from a meteor impact, the largest mammal was a little tree shrew. So not only do we dirctly relate to bacteria, we also directly relate to tree shrews. So do dogs and every other mammal. Mammals have only been around since the Tertiary (I think) which is yesterday in geologic time.

I don't know if you have ever seen the Evolution Revivalist meeting on YouTube, it is totally hilarious.

I will look it up and get a link. I've heard the transcript, but haven't seen a video. It says stuff like"

"I'm PROUD to come from a tree shrew!!"

Pretty funny, given the time, back when the push for Intelligent Design in the classroom was a big deal.

I have never claimed to be an expert in speciation and the like, but natural selection works. Even in a test tube. Antibiotics, insecticides, herbicides, all show clear adaption and resistance to these chemicals.

The reason that you see it is two fold:

1) The stress on the population is large

2) Most of these organisms have quick reproductive rates. Humans live a hell of a lot longer than bacteria, although the same stress on a species is often larger.

That is what the deniers call "micro-evolution." After one of the Republican debates, after the question was "Do you believe in evolution?,",a couple raised their hands. Later on, Rick Perry said he beleived in Micro-Evolution. Meaning he is by and large a creationist.

Republicans are the ones who have rejected science when it is inconvenient. Democrats tend to accept basic science principles far more.

I guess that it is because the Republicans are the new home of the Republicans. They have often hijacked the message and swept science under the rug.

They love science if it builds a better weapons system. If you can kill people more efficently, they embrace it.

Republicans have been more and more hijacked since the civil rights movement. All of the old dixie-crats joined the party, and the only home for the evangelical movement is with the Republican party.

Unfortunately, that means that they have been quite anti-science. I'm not talking wild science. I'm talking about stuff that they would know if they had studied in biology or taken math through algebra. Calculus would be nice.

Statistics is also very important in the "soft sciences." Sociology is an important topic, yet it relys on a lot of statistics. In the hands of an idiot, Statistics is the easies science of all to attack, yet it is a very fruitful and important tool in these sciences. It is also a reasonably hard topic to master.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Nov 3, 2012 - 11:45am PT
John,

I saw that link as well. One case is a small sample, but it is pretty odd and will likely be studied more. There are already people who do nothing but study whale languages.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Nov 3, 2012 - 11:50am PT
Consciousness is almost certainly an evolutionary result. My dog knows a fair number of English words, and it is certain that many animals dream, for instance. My dog gets angry or happy in diffirent circumstances. So do a lot of the higher animals such as whales. Hell, even birds sing, and they do so in a simple language.

Hell, I see my dog dreaming all of the time. She yelps a little and her feet move like she is running. Who knows what she is dreaming.

My point here is that humans are not the sole vessel for intelligence and consiousness.
jstan

climber
Nov 3, 2012 - 11:51am PT
Perhaps we need to read bed time stories to them?


Long ago, before the Great Flood, the Great Ones walked the earth, and the giant trees, even those which now are no more than legend, were their home and their kingdom. They lived many score of generations...........,

No. Come to think of it we don't want whales joining the arguments here. They can be pretty persuasive.


Edit:

Evolutionary Revivalist Meeting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aceiu6CscNY

A scream. And it puts the whole thing in perspective. Brilliant!
WBraun

climber
Nov 3, 2012 - 11:52am PT
My point here is that humans are not the sole vessel for intelligence and consciousness.


One hundred percent true!

It's also an absolute truth .......
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Nov 3, 2012 - 12:01pm PT
Yep, Wener, we agree on that.

I also agree with the notion that life comes from life. So far, that is tough to deny in a practical sense.

In a practical sense, most of the biological areas of inquiry don't even worry about it.

I hope that we can figure out how to create simple life, but it is a tough hill to climb.

You CAN harvest an egg from a woman, fertilize it with sperm in a "test tube," and after the egg is reimplanted it creates a perfectly normal human. All that is, is a neat trick.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Nov 3, 2012 - 12:10pm PT
Good morning Base!
I like listening to you because you have common sense!
Here's one question for you;
Just like religion should not be incorporated into politics.
Tell me why evolution or science should be?

Jus Ask'in
BB
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