Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Nov 24, 2012 - 11:04am PT
blueblocr-

All of the major religions of the world today see "God" as either a unity or a trinity.

As for America being a "percolation" of the Judeo Christian tradition, that is true, but there has never been uniformity of opinion as to what that should be. Most of our founding fathers and early presidents were Deists and Unitarians and Free Masons, all of whom were considered heretics by large numbers of Christians. (There's a reason we have a pyramid with the third eye on top of it on our money).

Puritans were persecuted as heretics by the Church of England as were Quakers, Methodists and Baptists. Puritans returned the favor and persecuted Church of England members, as well as Quakers, Catholics, Deists, Methodists and Baptists. Some founding fathers were atheists and wanted freedom from religion as much as freedom of religion. In God we trust was only added to our money during the Civil War and The original pledge of allegiance did not contain the words "under God" until the 1950's.

Religion has traditionally been important to Americans and freedom of religion even more important as a concept. And there has never been agreement in America as to what the correct interpretation of religion is.

go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Nov 24, 2012 - 11:51am PT
The original pledge of allegiance did not contain the words "under God" until the 1950's.

Religion has traditionally been important to Americans and freedom of religion even more important as a concept. And there has never been agreement in America as to what the correct interpretation of religion is.

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Romans 9:1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

Psalm 95:3 For the Lord is the great God,
And the great King above all gods.
(HA, HA, HA, there is no other God, just false gods!)

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’



As a Christian it's a blessing that God is over us and for us!
He's the GOD!
MH2

climber
Nov 24, 2012 - 12:26pm PT
Sounds more to me like NYT piece would support your previous post, Mike.



from
Learning Deep Architectures for AI
by Yoshio Bengio
Foundations and Trends in Machine Learning
Vol. 2, No. 1 (2009) 1-127

Inspired by the architectural depth of the brain, neural network researchers had wanted for decades to train deep multi-layer neural networks, but no successful attempts were reported before 2006...Something that can be considered a breakthrough happened in 2006...G. E. Hinton, S. Osindero, and Y. Teh, "A fast learning algorithm for deep belief nets," Neural Computation, vol. 18, pp. 1527-1554, 2006.





It could be a while before progress comes up against that barrier over which machines cannot jump according to Roger Penrose.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Nov 24, 2012 - 02:12pm PT
Experience is the basis of all our learning, or at least what we call learning. We have a tendency, however, to think that our learning reflects what is real and true--when in fact our learning / knowledge of the world are mainly rules of thumb and heuristics. In some instances, our heuristics are remarkably complex and detailed, which might encourage us think that we have actually "found" or trapped reality. But they are just concepts or heuristics.


I hold this all to be self-evident - but I wouldn't count on this getting much serious play on this thread because some or perhaps many appear to be hoping that the maps (concepts/heuristics/symbolic representations like words and numbers) ARE the territory (reality), or are so consistent with and inclusive of reality that they amount to the selfsame things.

I personally see this as the fundementalism we see in religion - simply switched over to concepts/heuristics/words and numbers. This, of course, is our overriding urge to have something we can point to that is unquestionably the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

We see this played out in life in those who accord total authority to doctrines, quantification, and so forth. This has been described as confusing what works (experiments, proofs, commendations, awards, peer success, et al) with what IS.

JL
MH2

climber
Nov 24, 2012 - 02:34pm PT
This has been described as confusing what works (experiments, proofs, commendations, awards, peer success, et al) with what IS.


Now I'm confused. Surely what works belongs to what IS?
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Nov 24, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
Heuristic
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Heuristic or /hyoo-ris-tik/; Greek: "Εὑρίσκω", "find" or "discover") refers to experience-based techniques for problem solving, learning, and discovery. Where the exhaustive search is impractical, heuristic methods are used to speed up the process of finding a satisfactory solution. Examples of this method include using a rule of thumb, an educated guess, an intuitive judgment, or common sense.

In more precise terms, heuristics are strategies using readily accessible, though loosely applicable, information to control problem solving in human beings and machines.

___


In most undertakings there is a learning curve of technique and practice. Like in climbing learning different hand jams for the size of the cracks, or the notes of the scales in music and how to play them, but this is just the start it isn't making music yet!

It's in living it out, where the tire meets the road!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Nov 24, 2012 - 04:42pm PT
MikeL said;
"Experience is the basis of all our learning, or at least what we call learning. We have a tendency, however, to think that our learning reflects what is real and true"


My posit months ago: Our experiences are our ONLY truths!
We can predict truths for tomorrow. But their not "True" until their proven.
__

Largo said:
"I personally see this as the fundementalism we see in religion - simply switched over to concepts/heuristics/words and numbers. This, of course, is our overriding urge to have something we can point to that is unquestionably the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth."
___

In my life of learning. I Used to point at the Sun or rocks and say "There's Truth!"
Or point at words, and say "There's Truth!". SEE?! Until I closed my eyes to MY perceived
"truths" and asked Jesus to come into my heart. Which He did! He then reconstructed my
body allowing its use for the Holy Spirit. And once the HS intercedes with your Spirit,
The Christian no longer sees "material truths" as important as they were.
Now I point to the hole in my heart inwhich Jesus filled. And say, This is the biggest Truth I've found!

CLIMBING, corallates with me in that; when I first started, I used to point at the nubbin's on the face climbs at Smith Rocks. And say "I can climb those" BUT, now I point to the "gap",
or the "void" between the walls of the rock. Like that of "FISTICUFFS" and say," I must
climb that!". Which I just soloed on turkey day btw. (its only a hand crack for me though)

Jus Cluck'in
BB
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 24, 2012 - 05:02pm PT
Until I closed my eyes to MY perceived "truths" and asked Jesus to come into my heart. Which He did! He then reconstructed my body allowing its use for the Holy Spirit. And once the HS intercedes with your Spirit, The Christian no longer sees "material truths" as important as they were. Now I point to the hole in my heart inwhich Jesus filled. And say, This is the biggest Truth I've found!

 more like closed your eyes to reality in exchange for the imaginary.

You say you had a hole in your heart? I contend you'd have a tough time calling it life with holes in the heart… oh, wait…. you mean that all figuratively… almost like you want me to imagine a hole in a heart, the the filling of the hole by another piece of imagination called jesus and a holy spirit…


please forgive me.. I don't follow
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Nov 24, 2012 - 05:09pm PT
Sounds more to me like NYT piece would support your previous post, Mike.

It's academic, but the way we modeled cognition initially was by implementing the metaphor of the computer. Using that model, there was no need for a body. The computer model relied upon what was essentially a self-referential dictionary and a set of rules to allow for one concept (noun, verb, category) to refer to other concepts, nouns, verbs, and category, taxonomies, etc. It's how any dictionary works: they assume you know the language to begin with.

Some smart person (can't remember who) said something like, "isn't that like expecting a person who knows NO language to learn to use language by giving them a dictionary?" Although that stopped few academics from continuing straight forward, others took note and said, "yeah, . . . what about the body?" Damasio and others put forward "grounded / embodied cognition."

The NYTs article points out that my (and others' complaints) may be irrelevant to pragmatic purposes. Maybe there is no need for a body if all we need to do is mimic human behaviors (ala Turing). It'll be good enough.

However, for some of us here, simply mimicking human behaviors ignores the more interesting issues. Many of us think that the body is sine qua non to consciousness, all the more so for living, or for bigger picture issues.

I'm at my in-laws place in the mountains in Arizona, and we have very young children running all over the place (crying, acting out, getting bored, and trying to get their way over others' wishes). For them to fully emerge as individuals, they must develop autonomy and will. You can see their egos attempting to establish themselves, their identities, go beyond social or parental boundaries, and manipulate objects in the world. Their bodies get in their own ways, and their minds can hardly stay on topic for very long. In not too many years, we'll be expecting them to direct their efforts to (let's hope) to noble purposes--perhaps most importantly to subordinate themselves to others or for greater purposes.

That's where Politics, God and Religion and Science come together. I can't see how ANY of those more nobler purposes could emerge without taking into account the vehicles for experience. It seems to me that's what a body is for . . . to gain experience.

To do so properly, one must develop an ego. Paradoxically, once an ego has been autonomously established, it must be then be subordinated to more larger issues to move forward.

I've digressed.

The AI research doesn't rely upon a body for experience. Some newer cognitive models say that's where everything starts.
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Nov 24, 2012 - 05:36pm PT
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Nov 24, 2012 - 05:46pm PT
Woody Guthrie KNOWS the,


TRUTH!!!

I was born about ten thousand years ago,
And there's nothin' in the world that I don't know;
I saw Peter, Paul and Moses,
Playing ring-around-the-roses
And I'll whup the guy what says it isn't so.

I saw Satan when he looked the garden o'er,
Then saw Adam and Eve driven from the door,
And behind the bushes peeping,
Saw the apple they were eating,,
And I'll swear that I'm the guy what ate the core.

I saw Jonah when he'mbarked within the whale,
And thought that he'd never live to tell the tale.
But old Jonah'd eaten garlic
And he gave the whale a colic,
So he coughed him up and let him out o' jail.

I saw Samson when he laid the village cold,
And saw Daniel tame the lions in the hold,
And helped build the tower of Babel,
Up as high as they were able,
And there's lots of other things I haven't told.

I taught Solomon his little A-B-C's
I helped Brigham Young to make Limburger cheese,
And while sailing down the bay
With Methuselah one day,
I saved his flowing whiskers from the breeze.

Queen Elizabeth, she fell in love with me.
We were married in Milwaukee secretly,
But I schemed around and shook her,
And went off with General Hooker
To shoot mosquitoes down in Tennessee.

I remember when the country had a king.
I saw Cleopatra pawn her wedding ring,
And I saw the flags a-flyin'
When George Washington stopped lyin',
On the night when Patti first began to sing.

I was there to help old Noah load the ark,
And I sheared off Samson's hair just for a lark.
So I upped and ran away
To the good ol' USA,
Where I raced old Pocahontas in the dark.

In the boudoir with dear Empress Josephine,
When Napoleon was nowhere to be seen,
It was then I played my part
So much better than Bonaparte;
Well, I guess you know exactly what I mean.

I was in the garden when Eve made love to me;
I sent Cleopatra back to Antony;
I was there with Pompadour
When she said, "Toujours l'amour."
I took Julia's clothes off on the balcony.

I designed the pyramids along the Nile;
I was friendly with the Pharoahs for awhile,
'Til they caught me playin' rummy
With an old Egyptian mummy;
That's why the Sphinx has got that famous smile.

I taught William the Conqueror how to fight,
And I snuffed out Florence Nightingale's light;
And Robin Hood was carryin' on,
For I was with Maid Marian on
The bed that I hid under for the night.

You can stop me if you've heard this one before
'Bout the apple too delicious to ignore
Adam said to Eve: "We're cheating,
if that apple we start eating!
I came by and I'm the guy what ate the core

Old King Solomon was very wise, they claim
With a thousand wives, he knew them all by name
That's because I used to list 'em -
With my alphabetic system
In my little book - each time he took a dame

Isabella sent Columbus with a crew
On a little trip across the ocean blue
But to me she said: "Hey, fella,
you stay here with Isabella"
I'm the stowaway of fourteen ninety two

I was on the shore with Washington, I swear
When he tossed a coin across the Delaware
But nobody has believed it,
when I tell 'em I retrieved it
And I bought me boots, they cost a buck a pair

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 24, 2012 - 05:50pm PT
Largo: I personally see this as the fundementalism we see in religion

You're a panpsychist calling physicalists fundamentalists? That seems a bit over the top given you're out there on the bleeding edge at the other end of the spectrum. I could see calling us Luddites possibly, but which of the two takes more of a 'fundamental' leap of [intellectual] faith, physicalism or panpsychism (given you're the ones positing a new form of reality/existence)?
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Nov 24, 2012 - 06:42pm PT
Cosmic: I'm next expecting someone to post the Rolling Stones' "Sympathy For The Devil" lyrics. Equally apropos?.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Nov 24, 2012 - 07:38pm PT
Hi Cosy !

Woody G. Is BBadd aaSS!!

Wasn't this Woody Starks' Week??

Jus Blow'in
BB
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Nov 24, 2012 - 07:55pm PT
You're a panpsychist calling physicalists fundamentalists? That seems a bit over the top given you're out there on the bleeding edge at other end of the spectrum.


I'll admit the influence of panpsychism to my world view having gone to grad school at at a Whitehead Process joint, but I don not consider myself a panpsychist. It's curious this obsession of labeling everything and everyone so they are THIS or THAT, nice and orderly. And before you go there, there are other options to rigid rationalism other than chaos and horsefeathers.

And what "bleeding edge?" I have repeatedly said that form (stuff) is emptiness (void), and vica versa. That makes me a a materialist AND a Totem Pole.

JL
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 24, 2012 - 09:40pm PT
...but I don not consider myself a panpsychist.

Sounds classically dualist in so far as trying to have it both ways to me ;>). Or at least I sure don't see how you can dodge the panpsychism label given the views you've espoused here to date. That said, I'm still learning, so it's still a bit hard to label you as your views do seem to either vary or rather cross a few boundaries. You appear at various times (almost at once) to embrace idealism, some form of panpsychism, and/or neutral (naturalistic) monism.

As for labeling in general, 'fundamentalist' seems pretty label-ish to me. And for that matter, what else can this discussion be about other than a labeling exercise relative to aspects of mind and consciousness. Also, at the moment I'm into 'labeling' now that you have me reading philosophy (which seems to be mainly about the labeling of split hairs), so you'll have to excuse the mental training wheels while I'm still wobbling.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Nov 24, 2012 - 09:59pm PT
Ah-ha!

Sounds classically dualist in so far as trying to have it both ways to me ;>).


A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
(Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes.
(Walt Whitman)

Everyone knows the Emerson quote. Few people know much about Whitman or this quote by him. Whitman was a transcendentalist, and what he points us to is that what he is, is beyond him. He is a part of everything and in everything. If anything (one could argue), Whitman is an anti-dualist, if he is anything. I have thought that he might have been spiritually enlightened, or damned near close to it.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 24, 2012 - 10:20pm PT
That's certainly wonderful out in the world, but within the confines of philosophy proper? Nothing could relegate you to a worse fate in philosophy than to adopt an Emersonian approach to the subject. It's just not an area of human endeavor given to neutrality, fence sitting, purgatories, or no man's lands from what I've seen so far.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Nov 24, 2012 - 10:26pm PT
I must admit I had to look up panpsychism. Now I'm pondering a saying by Yogananda (said by many to be an enlightened master) which goes something like (paraphrasing)

"God sleeps in the minerals, begins to awaken in the plants, becomes aware in the animals and has the potential to be fully awake and recognize himself in mankind".

It seems this could be interpreted two ways. Consciousness is already present in the material universe or it only emerges through life. Typical mystic, no precise definitions.

But maybe it is both, and occasionally humans are able to pick up another consciousness just as crystals and dental fillings have been known to pick up radio waves. The mystics of course say yes.

It seems to me though, that the materialists have to ask themselves in a totally non theological context whether or not our own form of carbon based embodied consciousness could even recognize another form of consciousness with a very different base? So far, extrapolating to computers for the materialists and attributing things to spirits for the religious, is the best we can do.

I suspect there is much much more out there. If earth's atmosphere is filled with the invisible waves of various technologies, why would the rest of the universe not be filled with information well?

At first panpsychism seems extreme - rocks don't have consciousness, but it does lead to some interesting speculations.





healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 24, 2012 - 10:37pm PT
Jan, take a look at this, I found it helpful...

http://www.philosophybasics.com/branch_philosophy_of_mind.html
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