Politics, God and Religion vs. Science


Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 10181 - 10200 of total 22785 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 23, 2012 - 07:09pm PT
The issue of property dualism driving panpsychism and the claim mental / psychological properties are 'fundamental' to reality alongside matter and open to a form of a parallel 'science' of exploring via subjective experience seems very much a reach to me at best.

Midvale School for the Gifted
Nov 23, 2012 - 07:40pm PT
Dr. F.

Ice climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 23, 2012 - 07:52pm PT
You should cite or reference the material you are cut and pasting
we all know you didn't write that
Dr. F.

Ice climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 23, 2012 - 07:53pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Nov 23, 2012 - 08:22pm PT
. . . the claim mental / psychological properties are 'fundamental' to reality alongside matter and open to a form of a parallel 'science' of exploring via subjective experience seems very much a reach to me at best.


This then establishes you as a materialist.

I would warn that you perhaps are clumping brain processing ("mental/ psychological properties") in with awareness and I think Royce and many others are not actually saying as much. But maybe I am misreading you here. What's more, I sense that you believe a "science of exploring via subjective experience" is specious, and I'm curious what direct experiences you have had that led you to that belief.


Social climber
joshua tree
Nov 23, 2012 - 08:33pm PT

Let's talk, first of all, about the basic principles of science since we're dealing with foundational things. Science deals with a matrix when we're talking about natural science. We're talking about the way things are in a material universe, there is a matrix of things. You have to have matter, you have to have force, you have to have energy, you have to have space and you have to have time. That is...that is Herbert Spencer's great achievement, he died in 1903, he said, "Everything in the universe can be deposited in one of these categories...time, force, action, space and matter." Force and action comprising energy. There has to be time, there has to be energy which is force and action, there has to be space, and there has to be matter. And by the way, those five things which he defined in that order are all in Genesis 1, "In the beginning...that's time...God...that's force...created...that's action...the heavens...that's space...and the earth...that's matter." The matrix is in Genesis 1:1, that is a profound scientific statement. The universe in essence is a...is a matrix of space, time, matter, and energy. And all of it has to be existing at the same conflux. It all has to come together or none of it exists. One cannot exist without the other. The entire continuum must have existed simultaneously from the beginning. That is why you find it all in Genesis 1:1, it all had to be there. Science says it has to be there and Scripture says it is there.

Now once the matrix comes into instantaneous simultaneous existence, its processes then are designed to operate in an orderly fashion, going forward. All the different phenomena within the matrix of nature and life are sustained by the forces that exist in that matrix. Time goes on, space goes on, energy goes on, matter goes on. It is all instantaneously and simultaneously coming into existence, it is then not only brought into existence by some external force and source, but it is then kept in prefect balance and function by that same power. It is sustained by the same force that brought it into existence. But everything that God made was made in six days. And it says in Genesis 2:2, "God ended His work which He had made." God stopped making anything. If you know science, you understand that that is scientifically accurate, nothing is being created, nothing is coming into existence, nothing has since creation, day six, and God's cessation of His work. The complete cessation of creative activity has been, by the way, in advertently recognized by modern science and they call it the law, the first law of thermodynamics and the first law of thermodynamics is called the conservation of mass and energy...the conservation of mass and energy. This is THE most and universal and certain of all scientific principles. Science has shown and verified that there is nothing being created in the known universe today. Things are doing what they do but not coming into existence newly. There is nothing new in the universe. In fact, the Bible tells us this in the most unaffected, the most simple, the most direct ways without ever defending itself as if its made some statement contrary to fact.

For example, in the words that come to us in the ninth chapter of Nehemiah, "In praise to God, in blessing to God," we read in Nehemiah 9:6, "Thou alone art the Lord, Thou hast made the heavens, the heaven of heavens with all their hosts, the earth and all that is in them, the seas and all that is in them. Thou dost give life to all of them." You made it all, everything that exists in the heaven and the earth and the seas, everything that lives, you made it all. That is an affirmation of God's completed and ended creation. Everything that is You made, and You made it all in those six days of creation.

I think it's in Isaiah, there are a lot of Scriptures that we could look up but there is another one, I think it's in Isaiah...yes, chapter 40 verse 26, "Lift up your eyes and see who has created these stars, the one who leads forth their host by number, He calls them all by name, not one of them is missing." Nothing comes into existence and nothing goes out of existence. This is the law, the first law of thermodynamics, the law of the conservation of mass and energy. Nothing is being created, nothing is going out of existence. And this is exactly what the Bible says in the most unaffected way and without any scientific pretension. For example, Ecclesiastes 1:9, "That which has been is that which will be and that which has been done is that which will be done and there is nothing new under the sun." In the third chapter of Ecclesiastes, verse 14, "I know that everything God does will remain forever." There is nothing to add to it, there is nothing to take from it. It is God so...it is God who has so worked it, that which is has been already, that which will be has already been, for God seeks what has passed by. This is the continuum of the creative reality, spontaneous generation, new creation doesn't happen. What perpetuates the creation is the conservation of mass and energy. And every organism that is a living organism has the seed of life within itself to reproduce itself.

Now there's a second law of thermodynamics and science has labeled this law, and the second law of thermodynamics is this...nothing new is being created, nothing is being destroyed, that is in the sense the first law. The second law is, however, all things are tending toward increasing disorder. This is the second law of thermodynamics. Energy is running down. It is losing its capacity to perform its work. There is increasing disorder. That means that slowly but observably the processes that God set in motion are winding down. We're heading toward the death of this creation. Now they don't have an explanation for that and it's a very hard thing to come up with an evolutionary view that everything is getting more complex, more intelligent and better while at the same time they can show scientifically that energy is dissipating and everything is tending toward chaos and disorder. All energy is running down and heading toward being incapable of performing its function.

Now God didn't make the world that way. God did not make the world that way. In fact, when God finished His creation, Genesis 1:31, He looked at it all and said, "It's...what?...it's very good." How do we explain what's happened? The Bible is the only place you can go for an explanation. Science has no explanation for the second law of thermodynamics. It has no explanation for the first law. Why is it that everything came into existence in a matrix at one time and continues in that same matrix? Why is it that if this is all a matter of chance, coincidence and randomness that that's not happening again and again and again and again? Why is it that it has come into existence in such a matrix of complexity and sustained itself in that matrix of complexity? That, in fact, is what drove Einstein crazy, if you would call him crazy, because he couldn't figure out the power was that held everything together. And how then do you explain this slow death? What is the reason for that? Only the Bible explains the matrix, the power of God is the invisible power that holds it all together and sustains it. And only the Bible explains why it's all tending toward disorder and death and the explanation comes in Genesis 3, it is the Fall and God curses creation. God curses creation. You read Genesis 3, man is cursed, woman is cursed. Sin enters into the world, the land is cursed, the ground is cursed. You have to till and work by the sweat of your brow to get something out of the land and fight all the cursed elements, the thorns, the weeds. And man has to fight against the weakness of his own body and his weariness and illness and disease because death enters the world and women have pain in childbearing. The ground is cursed. The whole creation is cursed. Read Romans 8:20 to 22. In Romans 8:20 to 22 the whole creation groans under the weight of the curse.

Science has no explanation for the first law of thermodynamics which they are glad to label but cannot explain how the complex matrix can come into existence in a moment, which all of which is required for anything to exist out of nothing. They cannot explain that nor can they explain how it holds itself together because there's no way to find the power that holds it together scientifically, nor can they explain the principle of disintegration and disorder in the second law of thermodynamics. The Bible explains both perfectly.

The Bible also explains that the second law of thermodynamics without calling it that is working its way down to an end, and the end must come and it will come, only it won't die a slow death, it will die an immediate death, as I just read you, when the Lord Jesus destroys this cursed universe and establishes a new heaven and a new earth. And in the new heaven and the new earth, there will be a different matrix. There will be a different matrix. There will be no time, there will be no space, there will be the energy of eternal life. It will be a completely different matrix and there will be no second law of thermodynamics. There will be no death, no sickness, no sorrow, no dying, no decay, no unrighteousness, no trouble, to pain, no destruction, and so forth and so forth.

So, you see, when you talk about science at the very basic level, it is only the Bible that gives you any sensible understanding for the way things really are. And we would expect that the one who made things the way they are, knows the way they are, and tells us the truth about the way they are. I stand so firmly before you as somebody who is not a scientist, by any stretch of the imagination, to say to you that I have read as extensively as I can read in science, particularly in those many, many months when I was going through Genesis chapters 1, 2 and 3, trying to understand science, true science, comparison to Scripture, and I have yet to find and I am supported by Christian scientists all over the country and all over the world who study far more in depth and more diligently than I who back up the fact that there has never ben any...any scientific discovery that is in true fact the way it really is that contradicts the biblical record...never...never.

The message has been around forever!! It just takes aHeightened conscienseness ,
and a Willing Soul to transpire Gods Spirit into communication.

Jus Inhale'in

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Nov 23, 2012 - 09:32pm PT

I always tell my students that one only has to be a little bit open minded to accommodate both Genesis and science. The religious person will say that all the universe and knowledge came from God, the scientist if he thinks about it at all, will probably say that the ancients were pretty good observors. The order of creation in Genesis more or less corresponds to the fossil record, for example.

Regardless of the source, it is not confined to the Bible. The Hindu scriptures talk about cosmic expansion and contraction, and different universes over time as do the Buddhists. The incarnations of Vishnu meanwhile represent the ordered appearance of animal life on this planet evolving up to human and beyond that to enlightened humans.

The West sees a one time creation event, the East sees multiple creations and an evolving planetary consciousness. Scientists observe evolving life but they can't say whether this is the only universe that has existed.

So take your pick as to where humans get their knowledge, just be aware that the Judeo-Christian tradition is not the only one asking the big questions and that the similarity of understandings across the planet could reflect either the biological unity of humans or the availability of God's knowledge to all or both at the same time.

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 23, 2012 - 10:03pm PT
Jus Inhale'in

Again, the delusion is palpable and no doubt Santa's workshop can be explained by that old tome with equal aplomb.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 23, 2012 - 10:05pm PT
Please cite your Cut and Pastes

Hebrews 1:3
Nov 23, 2012 - 10:11pm PT
Grace to You :: Unleashing God's Truth, One Verse at a Time
Biblical Inspiration Validated By Science, Part 1
Scripture: Selected Scriptures
Code: 90-326

By John MacArthur
Excerpt from PDF starting at page #9...

Nov 23, 2012 - 10:36pm PT
Wow, Go-B. I'm impressed, even if it was taken from another. (How many of us do THAT?) I read every word, and I find the articulation you provided here interesting. I can't say how much more I appreciate that post than your others which are (excuse me) simply scriptures. Good-on-ya.

Sentience means or necessarily entails self-reflection, doesn't it? Self-reflection entails the presence of the presence of awareness, and the ability to note the absence of the presence of awareness.

JL, there have been folks in cognitive science, brain studies, and philosophy recently who have offered detailed models of how sensiomotor inputs can get be transformed into conceptual knowledge. The grand majority of models in cognitive science and AI have modeled cognition as a system of arbitrary symbols, computation, predicate calculus, and semantic nets operating in rule-based systems. But now, calling back to William James, a few people are arguing that physical experience form the basis for all concepts (which lead to analytical quantification), even the most abstract concepts (like trust, democracy, etc.). The key move was to suggest that the mind's most important capability is to create and run simulations. Sense data can used to proscribe a felt experience, with which the mind then creates and runs the simulation. When simulations can be run successfully, they can be used to stipulate rules, parameters, and operations to create taxonomies of categories of felt experiences to flesh out the world conceptually. In other words, from subjective sense data to (objective) concepts.

Some empirical studies support report that when people run simulations, they "charge" the sensiomotor systems (muscles, neural transmitters, emotions, and feelings) AS IF their bodies were going through actual experiences. Of course there is much to research since many ideas need fleshing out. These theories are referred to as, "grounded" or "embodied cognition." I thought they could shed some light on your concerns. They are very academic.

The people I remember reading in this area were: Barsalou's article, "Perceptual Symbol Systems" (1999) in the journal Brain and Behavioral Science; also Jesse Prinz's 2004 book, Furnishing the Mind. As you no doubt know, the neuroscience-consciousness topic area is rife with recent publications on neuroscience and consciousness, which if anything, might only be making a confusing mess of the area. Unfortunately, the research is disparate empirically--in need of unification.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 23, 2012 - 10:51pm PT
I hate to have to cross post

Maybe you guys already read the Why Republicans are wrong thread, and I don't need too, but I doubt it, even though you should.

Grand Old Planet



Earlier this week, GQ magazine published an interview with Senator Marco Rubio, whom many consider a contender for the 2016 Republican presidential nomination, in which Mr. Rubio was asked how old the earth is. After declaring “I’m not a scientist, man,” the senator went into desperate evasive action, ending with the declaration that “it’s one of the great mysteries.”

It’s funny stuff, and conservatives would like us to forget about it as soon as possible. Hey, they say, he was just pandering to likely voters in the 2016 Republican primaries — a claim that for some reason is supposed to comfort us.

But we shouldn’t let go that easily. Reading Mr. Rubio’s interview is like driving through a deeply eroded canyon; all at once, you can clearly see what lies below the superficial landscape. Like striated rock beds that speak of deep time, his inability to acknowledge scientific evidence speaks of the anti-rational mind-set that has taken over his political party.

By the way, that question didn’t come out of the blue. As speaker of the Florida House of Representatives, Mr. Rubio provided powerful aid to creationists trying to water down science education. In one interview, he compared the teaching of evolution to Communist indoctrination tactics — although he graciously added that “I’m not equating the evolution people with Fidel Castro.” Gee, thanks.

What was Mr. Rubio’s complaint about science teaching? That it might undermine children’s faith in what their parents told them to believe. And right there you have the modern G.O.P.’s attitude, not just toward biology, but toward everything: If evidence seems to contradict faith, suppress the evidence.

The most obvious example other than evolution is man-made climate change. As the evidence for a warming planet becomes ever stronger — and ever scarier — the G.O.P. has buried deeper into denial, into assertions that the whole thing is a hoax concocted by a vast conspiracy of scientists. And this denial has been accompanied by frantic efforts to silence and punish anyone reporting the inconvenient facts.

But the same phenomenon is visible in many other fields. The most recent demonstration came in the matter of election polls. Coming into the recent election, state-level polling clearly pointed to an Obama victory — yet more or less the whole Republican Party refused to acknowledge this reality. Instead, pundits and politicians alike fiercely denied the numbers and personally attacked anyone pointing out the obvious; the demonizing of The Times’s Nate Silver, in particular, was remarkable to behold.

What accounts for this pattern of denial? Earlier this year, the science writer Chris Mooney published “The Republican Brain,” which was not, as you might think, a partisan screed. It was, instead, a survey of the now-extensive research linking political views to personality types. As Mr. Mooney showed, modern American conservatism is highly correlated with authoritarian inclinations — and authoritarians are strongly inclined to reject any evidence contradicting their prior beliefs. Today’s Republicans cocoon themselves in an alternate reality defined by Fox News, Rush Limbaugh and The Wall Street Journal’s editorial page, and only on rare occasions — like on election night — encounter any hint that what they believe might not be true.

And, no, it’s not symmetric. Liberals, being human, often give in to wishful thinking — but not in the same systematic, all-encompassing way.

Coming back to the age of the earth: Does it matter? No, says Mr. Rubio, pronouncing it “a dispute amongst theologians” — what about the geologists? — that has “has nothing to do with the gross domestic product or economic growth of the United States.” But he couldn’t be more wrong.

We are, after all, living in an era when science plays a crucial economic role. How are we going to search effectively for natural resources if schools trying to teach modern geology must give equal time to claims that the world is only 6.000 years old? How are we going to stay competitive in biotechnology if biology classes avoid any material that might offend creationists?

And then there’s the matter of using evidence to shape economic policy. You may have read about the recent study from the Congressional Research Service finding no empirical support for the dogma that cutting taxes on the wealthy leads to higher economic growth. How did Republicans respond? By suppressing the report. On economics, as in hard science, modern conservatives don’t want to hear anything challenging their preconceptions — and they don’t want anyone else to hear about it, either.

So don’t shrug off Mr. Rubio’s awkward moment. His inability to deal with geological evidence was symptomatic of a much broader problem — one that may, in the end, set America on a path of inexorable decline.

Social climber
joshua tree
Nov 23, 2012 - 10:56pm PT
"So take your pick as to where humans get their knowledge, just be aware that the Judeo-Christian tradition is not the only one asking the big questions and that the similarity of understandings across the planet could reflect either the biological unity of humans or the ""availability of God's"" knowledge to all or both at the same time."

That's one long sentence!!! My Big Question concerns one letter, the "s" at the end of "availability of God". Does the "s" mean multiple "Gods"??
Or, are we at least on the same plane, with a One God, One Creator, One Spirit, Unification?

" The West sees a one time creation event, the East sees multiple creations and an evolving planetary consciousness. Scientists observe evolving life but they can't say whether this is the only universe that has existed."

I see "The West" (The United States of America. Anyhow:) being a purculation of the Judea--
Christian Conscinceness. And being a "baby nation", growing-up with a rebellious attitude. We
have been asking the "Big Questions" like: What Rights are we "Endowed with by The Creator?

Jus Ask'in


Social climber
An Oil Field
Nov 23, 2012 - 11:51pm PT
OK. Let's see how this fits with what we know about nature. Not wild un-proven hypotheses, but extremely well understood study of the natural universe.



Genesis 1

King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.


So. I need somebody to swear that every word is true and not an allegorical or apocryphal story. Then I will go over it line by line.


Social climber
An Oil Field
Nov 23, 2012 - 11:52pm PT
“God’s word is true. I’ve come to understand that. All that stuff I was taught about evolution, embryology, Big Bang theory, all that is lies straight from the pit of hell. It’s lies to try to keep me and all the folks who are taught that from understanding that they need a savior. There’s a lot of scientific data that I found out as a scientist that actually show that this is really a young Earth. I believe that the Earth is about 9,000 years old. I believe that it was created in six days as we know them. That’s what the Bible says. And what I’ve come to learn is that it’s the manufacturer’s handbook, is what I call it. It teaches us how to run our lives individually. How to run our families, how to run our churches. But it teaches us how to run all our public policy and everything in society. And that’s the reason, as your congressman, I hold the Holy Bible as being the major directions to me of how I vote in Washington, D.C., and I’ll continue to do that.”

--Georgia Republican Rep. Paul Broun, a physician who sits on the House Science, Space and Technology Committee

Nov 24, 2012 - 12:14am PT
God is pretty simple.

Ya all trying way too hard.

A child can easily do it, understand him .......

Nov 24, 2012 - 01:06am PT
With the eyes of a child you must come out and see...

Nov 24, 2012 - 02:43am PT
Modern materialistic mental speculative science always trying to manufacture a flower but ends up with no fragrance ......

Trad climber
Here and There
Nov 24, 2012 - 02:57am PT
All those beautiful mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm's and ssssssssssssss's. Where does the fragrance come from?

Nov 24, 2012 - 10:55am PT
Of course, to undercut my last post above, the NYTs published an article on the first page today that says that AI has made surprisingly fresh and impressive discoveries (viz, applications) most recently through "deep learning" methods / approaches. (Apple's Siri is a good example. It's impressive!)

Deep learning approaches are one of the major ways we learn as human beings. We develop and use heuristics (rules of thumb) though trial and error and experience. The scientific method almost totally relies upon it. (Insight and imagination are a few other things that science uses in its processes.) Heuristics come in a great many forms: stories, allegories, metaphors, algorithms, anchoring, modeling, simulations, among others.

Experience is the basis of all our learning, or at least what we call learning. We have a tendency, however, to think that our learning reflects what is real and true--when in fact our learning / knowledge of the world are mainly rules of thumb and heuristics. In some instances, our heuristics are remarkably complex and detailed, which might encourage us think that we have actually "found" or trapped reality. But they are just concepts or heuristics.

It's great to celebrate the forward progress of technologies that we create, but we need to be careful not to reify them as Reality. That includes any heuristic (magic, myth, metaphor, model).
Messages 10181 - 10200 of total 22785 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks

Try a free sample topo!

SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews