Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 20, 2012 - 10:42pm PT
JStan
" Suppose we, both of us, define a new specie as a person with purple eyes. You go out and have a baby, there is a random mutation and its eyes come out purple. Further suppose there is later incest and a continuing new specie has been created. Just what you say can't happen."

This being a poor example. Modern Man records there only being four different breeds of original dogs. We've crossed mutilated those four breeds to what we have today as hundreds of different breeds of dogs. But they're all dogs not a different species. You have to mate a dog with a cat to get a new species. That's how the "tree of life" scenario predicts it.

Jus Branch'in
BB
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Oct 21, 2012 - 01:01am PT
blueblocr-

There are several ways new species are created. The most dramatic occurs when our earth is bombarded by debris from outer space which sets forests on fire, and covers the planet with smoke and dust for several years, thereby killing most of the vegetation and the animals that live on it. Each biological era of tens of millions of years that emerges from one of these great extinction events has very different characteristics than the one before. The plants and animals still have the same four amino acids that make up DNA, but in very different form.

How do we know this? Because we see so many forms of life in the fossil record that do not exist today, and because they are arranged in layers of like looking plants and animals, followed by layers of debris containing minerals found only there and on debris floating in space, followed by another group of deep layers of life that look very different. When base 104 refers to a geologic and biological era like Cambrian or Cretaceous, those are specific eras seen as layers in the earth, some of them buried very deep now, that he is referring to.

Not all life is wiped out, and some strangely prehistoric types manage to survive all the way through. Plants came before animals so some of the most antique forms of life on the planet are the plants that survived in the tropics and even older, the ones that survived in the oceans which were used to little sunlight to begin with. Animals with food sources deep in the ocean or stored underground also tended to survive. Turtles and sharks and rodent - like creatures being among these. Yet all of them, old and new, have the same four amino acids that forms DNA as do very primitive organisms like jelly fish and even simpler worm- like ones living next to volcanic vents deep in the ocean.

Then there is the evidence from the study of embryos of different species. You can not tell a fish from a turtle from a chicken from a rabbit from a human at a very early stage of development. All of them exhibit characteristics of earlier life forms since evolution is conservative and the general trend has been toward more and more complex forms formed by adding to what already existed. A human embryo however does go through a phase where it has gill slits like a fish, a tail like many animals, and flippers instead of hands and feet. If all is normal, these continue to develop into the form we see today but many unfortunate children are born with some part of them stuck at an earlier stage. In simpler life forms, these mutations can be an advantage and the beginning of a new species.

In between catastrophic events, there is the microevolution that jstan was referring to. In the human world we find many species coexisting at the same time yet changing over time. One of the oddities of our era is that it is the only one involving human-like beings where there is only one species. As recently as 27,000 years ago there were at least three on the earth, probably more - Homo sapiens, Homo neanderthal and homo floresiensis.

If you want to reconcile this factual evidence with traditional religious beliefs, then rather than arguing against evolution and the origin of species, ask the really interesting questions. What is a soul? Do animals have one too? If they don't when did we get one? How did life on earth originate? Did those four amino acids appear here through chance or did they catch a ride on meteors from somewhere else (we have found meteors fallen to earth that contained them). And the biggest questions of all - how did our universe originate, and what existed before that? And a few others like are there other universes existing at the same time as ours? There is no end to interesting questions with deep philosophical and religious implications, so it is a shame to get hung up on a well known phenomena like the origin of species and evolution.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Oct 21, 2012 - 08:37am PT
100%.

The only hard part is getting the first cell. After that it is all downhill regarding evolution.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 21, 2012 - 08:42am PT
The only hard part is getting the first cell

which could have been carried from another planet on an astroid that hit earth

we don't know

but as Base says, we have a pretty darn good idea what happened from then on
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 21, 2012 - 09:41am PT
Here is a good example of evolution

Say a population of white rabbits live in an area that has white sand.

a couple of those rabbits wonder off to a new area that has brown sand.
They can't get back to the old area, nor can new rabbits from the old find them.

The rabbits in the new area have the normal white offspring, but 1 out of 5 offspring are brown, which was the norm in the old land.

The white rabbits are easy prey for the coyotes, since they can be seen so easily. The brown ones escape, and have more offspring. Soon, the brown form of rabbits are the majority, brown breeding with brown creating mostly brown babies.

After a couple 1000 years, they are a new species just from the DNA drift from other specializations that evolved so they would be better suited for their new habitat in the brown sand.

Will this be any help?, no
I don't think BB wants to learn, did he read Jan's post?

We have only breeding dogs for a couple 100 years, separate the different breeds for a 1000 years, and they will be different species.

One problem with speciation is that closely related species can breed and produce viable offspring, so the difference between species is tentative in many cases.
WBraun

climber
Oct 21, 2012 - 09:44am PT
but 1 out of 5 offspring are brown,

But that isn't just by "Chance" only.

Material nature still has intelligence just like you ........
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 21, 2012 - 09:46am PT
http://www.science20.com/gadfly/intelligence_paradox-87635

In looking over all of this stuff on mind and brain and the origin of life and the transition from inorganic to organic, biological to conscious, we see some of the same mistakes trotted out in the effort to make it all fit a certain mechanical model. One of the most common kind of dumbing down tactics is to claim that one thing IS another - objective IS subjective, mind IS matter, etc.

Interesting to consider why this tendency keeps coming up.

JL
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 21, 2012 - 09:49am PT
It's not chance
It's natural variability, like brown vs. black hair


every offspring is slightly different than any other, some are better suited to their environment than others, those traits are selected for over multiple generations
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 21, 2012 - 09:52am PT
Largo
You still haven't proven your point that consciousness is not a product of a material brain, so your observation is that we don't agree with you, which is true.

We are comfortable with the scientific theory that the brain produces consciousness, since no other theory exists to explain it, so the gaps have been filled as far as we are concerned, making the big picture complete.

WBraun

climber
Oct 21, 2012 - 10:07am PT
The seat of consciousness comes from the soul.

The soul is seated with in the heart and is not material.

When one says "I" one points to the heart and not to the head.

Biology class when they dissect the frog will not find the soul with their material senses because the soul is anti material.

Thus modern mechanistic material science has failed to find the soul due to only using their defective material senses.

Real science uses all tools available.

Material science only uses a limited set of tools.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 21, 2012 - 10:15am PT
I don't point to my heart
Does it matter where you point?

Classic Werner delusion
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 21, 2012 - 10:17am PT
Real science uses all tools available.

What are the tools that the material scientists are not using?
I want to be a real scientist too, so I need to know about these tools

????
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 21, 2012 - 10:18am PT
Santa is coming
WBraun

climber
Oct 21, 2012 - 10:38am PT
What are the tools that the material scientists are not using?

Their own own soul and all it's attributes .........
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 21, 2012 - 10:50am PT
So you can't answer the question?
Try again

The soul is not an answer to anything remotely related to the question at hand.
Unless you can tell us specifically how to use the soul as a tool, how it works, what it will tell us, who can use it, is there a operation manual?
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Oct 21, 2012 - 10:52am PT
Nice to see so many here in the ST church today.
WBraun

climber
Oct 21, 2012 - 10:54am PT
Oh yes it is!

You saying so doesn't mean sh!t, just as you saying me saying so doesn't mean sh!t either.

The real truth is the fact that the soul exists and can be scientifically proven.

Just not with your cave man methods .......
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Oct 21, 2012 - 10:55am PT
The awakening of the life of the soul is primordial in manís life. According to the teaching of the Essenes, if one does not live accordingly to what was foreseen for its incarnation, the soul sacrifices itself and becomes atrophied into the physical body. This duality creates sufferings and diseases.

In its essence, the soul is the spouse of the divine spirit. It keeps in memory all the experiences and knowledge that man has acquired on Earth. The soul comes like a guiding Light. It incarnates with man from his first breath and remains very present in the first months of his life. With time, the childís soul is exposed to all kinds of influences that permeate the etheric water that surrounds it (its aura). The transparency of this water is vital: if it is pure, the soul can connect with man. If man listens to his soul, it allows him to awake in a higher consciousness and brings him happiness and plenitude.

If manís thoughts, feelings and impressions which he is living at each moment of his life are cloudy, they are printed on the subtle substance of its soul and can go as far as to smother the soul and live in its place. It is very rare these days to reach an adult age while keeping a contact with oneís soulÖ The soul sacrifices itself and becomes a prisoner of the body. It suffers of not being able to have a conscious contact with man. Being unable to find his place, man is lost and the divine world cannot come on Earth to accomplish the work of Light.


Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Oct 21, 2012 - 11:04am PT


The real truth is the fact that the soul exists and can be scientifically proven.

Just not with your cave man methods .......

Mr. Von Braun is on to something here.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 21, 2012 - 11:30am PT
Credit: Dr. F.

Werner might be on to something?
Tell us what it is
Prove it

But instead, we get nothing, every time
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