Politics, God and Religion vs. Science


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Ice climber
the ghost
Oct 20, 2012 - 04:14pm PT
Psst Norton ... I took the single out, because that primate musta been not very single ... if you get my drift.

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 20, 2012 - 04:38pm PT
I'm not speaking of the fact that all creatures carry the substance of DNA.

I am referring to the encoding. The instructions in which makes each species different.
The "formations"if you may,of the DNA, that makes us the same i.e. human.
We can show that when two people come together and have a baby. that baby shares DNA from both parents and their lineages. Isn't that enough puzzle pieces to assume DNA has kept track all the way back to the start?

I believe in evolution that's theory is all living organisms and species Adjust, adapt, change, conform.
But, there is no evidence linking one species changed into another species. And to advise so with no scientific proof is purely speculative.

Jus Code'in

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 20, 2012 - 04:56pm PT
The mitochondrial eve hypothesis is one I chalk up to sample size and wishful thinking. The odds are remarkably remote it would stand up to a truly broad and thorough sampling. But having parked it in the back of my mind some time ago as great popsci I can see how a lot or most folks would have held on to it and hence your comment which in this context is reasonable. Are you also conflating this with a biblical eve?

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 20, 2012 - 05:29pm PT

Are you also conflating this with a biblical eve?

Not necessarily.... Adam and Eve were placed in the garden somewhere on earth. But the Bible says they were other tribes on the planet. Some were 9 feet tall. Some were part human part animal. Some were part Angel part human.
When Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden Eve's son's went out into the world and mated with other humans.

What's funny is; me saying that all man started from one woman. Is a statement of evolution!
How does the evolutionist describe the making of the first man?

Jus Garden'in
Dr. F.

Ice climber
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2012 - 05:31pm PT
You weren't a very good atheist
You have a preschool understanding of basic science, including biology and evolution.
It's no wonder you came to believe that God did it all by Magic

We use the term first women (or eve) because the Mitochondrial DNA is passed unchanged from women to every offspring. So they can track the slow creep of DNA over the long durations.

There was a Man for every women, or it can be said, Every Baby came from a man impregnating a women, without exception

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 20, 2012 - 05:53pm PT
Isn't the name of this thread God versus science?

Well I'm asking you let's hear the scientific viewpoint, "theory" how the first man was procreated.

Was the earth covered with billions of monkeys. And they crossbred with other monkeys untill one day gave birth to a human? or did monkeys breed with pigs? Isn't that the theory of evolution that we all evolved from one cell splitting?
Seriously I just want the same picture in my head is that you have, how you see things.

Jus Question'in

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 20, 2012 - 06:00pm PT

"It's no wonder you came to believe that God did it all by Magic"

What you call" Magic" I call" laws"!

Jus Verify'in
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
Oct 20, 2012 - 06:05pm PT
no blue Blocker. Us humans are a result of the monkeys cross pollinating with bananas.

Here, your freind Ray Comfort will explain it to you one more time

Dr. F.

Ice climber
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2012 - 06:13pm PT
We evolved from other hominids, not monkeys

Oct 20, 2012 - 06:32pm PT

Suppose we, both of us, define a new specie as a person with purple eyes. You go out and have a baby, there is a random mutation and its eyes come out purple. Further suppose there is later incest and a continuing new specie has been created. Just what you say can't happen.

Here is what you really can't do. You have quite clearly shown you can't. You are simply unable to conceive of how long a million years is. It is long enough for hundreds of mutations to occur over the generations and for the real world to sort out who lives to reproduce and who does not.

When you balance your checking account at the end of the month, I am sure you are in touch with the real world. The rest of the time? Perhaps not quite so much.

Of course people who live on plastic don't have even that contact with the real world,
till they have to declare bankruptcy.

Strange how Jan or Largo kept springing to mind as I watched this Lara Logan piece, so I thought I'd post it.

The image I get from watching it is that of water circling a drain but, somehow, never getting down the drain. As to the mention of Jan, I have to think you have never met her.

I think we need to consider that people on TV are surely given a course of instruction as to how to use their appearance to manipulate the audience. Lara has simply gone overboard with that.

Give me Edward R. A real professional.

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 20, 2012 - 06:42pm PT
Was the earth covered with billions of monkeys. And they crossbred with other monkeys untill one day gave birth to a human? or did monkeys breed with pigs? Isn't that the theory of evolution that we all evolved from one cell splitting?

no, the earth was not covered with billions of "monkeys"

and no, they did not breed with each other to make a human

damn it, Blu

READ, educate yourself, you told me two a week ago you had 3 books in from of you

when are you going to read them, after you die?

You are an adult now, no longer a child, grow up.

It is ok to believe in god and Christianity, no one here is telling you not to

BUT, do NOT post here just outright dumb stuff that you make up, that monkey stuff

All you have to do if you "really" want answers to your questions about human evolution, is to google search "human evolution" and start reading

don't be so lazy, do it yourself, and then we'll answer some questions, but a least have the courtesy of getting the basics, some truth, all by yourself first


Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Oct 20, 2012 - 06:53pm PT

Sorry but I miss your point in posting Lara Logan and saying it reminds you of myself and Largo. Am I right in assuming you think of yourself as Lara trying to gear up the nation for a 100 year jihad and you're mad that largo and I think there might be another way to handle it? If so, why don't you volunteer for Afghanistan? They always need civilian contractors over there and they pay well, especially to computer and engineering nerds. Who knows, you might even have the opportunity to burn a few Korans in a military garbage pit, feel good about it, and get some good people killed over it. Then you could feel really satisfied that you had proved your point.


Oct 20, 2012 - 06:59pm PT
Oh oh!

We need your help here. Can you try and salvage this?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Oct 20, 2012 - 07:45pm PT
You gotta be kidding me, you and the 800 lb gorilla in the room are constantly running interference for these childish or boorish fundamentalists. I don't think I've ever read a post where at once you've lauded science and challenged them (i.e, the fundamentalists) to leave behind their bronze age superstitions. Well, maybe once or twice, but it's never been a constant theme of yours to say the least.

Multiply by a million or ten million across the country or the world. The result: we're paying an enormous price. Antiquated theisms are a menace to society. When a theocracy gets a hold of nuclear tech, which is likely to happen in short order, you'll see. Or maybe not, the scales will probably still cover your eyes, and you'll likely blame science - as science was a necessary component to these tragedies, afterall, you're sure to say.

Defenders of traditional theism - on this thread or off - contribute to the messes almost as much as the traditional theists, that's the way of it.

as Fruity insisting that the world's woes are entirely due to theists and Abrahamic doctrines.

Just a few woes, my 800 lb friend, the ones I'm looking at, are plenty enough. And, yeah, old Abrahamic doctrines are the main cause of them.


Here it is from another perspective.

Lara Logan gets it: She gets the importance of knowing one's enemy. She knows the importance of correctly identifying the problem. She knows the importance of being honest and not making excuses.


Just want to preserve this one:

"you might even have the opportunity to burn a few Korans in a military garbage pit, feel good about it, and get some good people killed over it. Then you could feel really satisfied that you had proved your point." (Jan)

What a gem.

Yeah, those are our goals.

Oct 20, 2012 - 08:03pm PT
Look, I think we're onto something here. Warner will preach, and preach big.

Fruity will break it down according to the 1,000s of engineering courses he's taken.

MH2 can can prescribe sundry Balogna Uptake Inhibitors to Fruity, who can show Ed that an AI machine - soon forthcoming - is more than a sum of it's parts, it can also tell jokes

Thank you, JL. That's the way to go. Not your fault a couple others took the ball and ran the wrong way.

For sure, the crux of the Turing test is a sense of humor. Glad you brought yours.

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Oct 20, 2012 - 08:26pm PT

There is more than one way to approach a problem. Generally insults and demeaning speech only antagonize people and magnify the problem. Human progress almost always goes by increments, rather than great leaps.

If we are attacked, of course we have to respond but in a deliberate and calculated manner. I believe that blindly attacking a Muslim country that had nothing to do with Sept. 11 and wasting our resources there, trusting the Afghanis to capture Bin Laden at Tora Bora when we could have done it ourselves, and other such mistakes were more important than religion to the present predicament. You may disagree.

We can use our personal energy positively or negatively. Obviously you think that direct negative attacks are the best use of your energy while I have chosen a different route. I'm the one out on the front lines teaching evolution to underprivileged people from fundamentalist backgrounds by the way. I've also worked on foreign aid projects to recommend culturally appropriate programs to help fundamentalist Hindus have a better life. I personally find that approach more useful than harshly criticizing what I don't like.

As for the mild criticisms toward science or the scientific mindset, I think those are worthwhile to make, because they are made to people who will listen and respond as they have, in thought provoking ways that help me learn and grow. I've long since concluded that criticizing or arguing with fundamentalists of any stripe, is useless.

Edit: And if you don't like passive aggressive responses, then don't initiate such attacks in the first place.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Oct 20, 2012 - 08:33pm PT
Yeah, well, I believe we shouldn't overly indulge children or abuse animals, you may disagree.

P.S. No free passes for girls.

Jstan - you need to get this - and if you're not old school on this count prove it.


On a lighter note, tying in with a theme expressed a few days ago:

Scienced based cultures, their fruits:


Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Oct 20, 2012 - 09:14pm PT

Careful there! Your own pater familias Freudian undergarments are showing!

Social climber
An Oil Field
Oct 20, 2012 - 09:32pm PT
One of the first things you need to understand about evolution besides the often touted natural selection is Adaptation.

Adaptation really shines when there is a change in environmental conditions that may "stress" a population.

You can see this with bacterial resistant staph. Many diseases have become resistant to the older antibiotics. Those are the winners. They go on to pass their DNA. Insects and plant diseases rapidly become resistant to new pesticides and herbicides. Evolution and Adaptation in action.

A lot of evolution poo-poo'ers dismiss this as "micro-evolution." That is where you take an organism which can create a very large number of offspring and generations in a short period of time. For some reason this is more palatable to many Christians, as if it is any different than all of the plant species which have come, gone, or are still here, like the Gingko. I have one of those in my front yard. Pretty tree.

Take the disease AIDS. It has a long incubation period and if it were more virulent, it would be far scarier. We know now that there are a small percentage of people who can harbor the virus without developing any symptoms at all.

If this were a zombie apocalypse, think of it like this. A certain number of humans can survive infection with no problem, although it is small. If only they were to survive, this would not be a new mutation. It would be adaptation. Some species can adapt to change. Others can't and the line ends there for them.

The other thing about evolution is the time scales that most people think of. With humans, the time scale is tiny on the geologic time scale. We see species come and go like a fire sale in the geologic record, but the time scale is immense and difficult to grasp for many who aren't used to those kinds of numbers.

The dinosaurs went extinct at the end of the Cretaceous, which is actually not that long ago. At that time the largest mammal was a tree shrew. Since there had been a rapid change in conditions, not the least being the absence of an entire group of very succesful predators, mammals flourished.

As for DNA itself, it is a very rugged molecule. It polymerizes easily and is very tough. There are those who study the "pre DNA world," since it is pretty obvious that a molecule like DNA doesn't drop from the sky. Or did it? The Origin of DNA is still not nailed down. I admit that I don't follow that question closely, though.

The evidence for evolution in the fossil record is blatantly obvious. Since I only use the occurence and absence of species as stratigraphical markers, for which they are great tools, or as evidence of a certain type of depositional environment of the rock, which can be seen from the fossil assemblage.

You know, you look at a thin section under a microscope and see bryozoans, corals, and the like, so you know that it was shallow water with a low amount of clastic influx. Reefs can be very porous and make great oil and gas reservoirs. I have done a lot of work on very thin carbonate cycles with the porous reservoir rock being small bioherms often less than ten feet thick. There are at least fifty Pennsylvanian cycles as you approach the northern shelf of the Anadarko basin, and each was formed by cycles of high and lowstands of sea level. An unmistakeable sign of swings in climate. Eustatic sea level changes were caused by accumulation and melting of continental ice. Occasionally there are local tectonic forces at play, but during the period of time that these rocks were deposited, the cycles are widely accepted as being formed by Eustatic (global) changes in ice storage and melting. That is the most logical mechanism at this time.

There is a huge ring of oilfields in west Texas that produce from thick reef deposits. It is called the Horshoe Atoll. The sucker is huge.

It is true. The evidence for a very old Earth is overwhelming. The obverse is just as true. The evidence for a 10,000 year old Earth is totally absent. There is no evidence of a great flood, and it is pretty comical when someone with no background points to such and such area as evidence for a great flood. Didn't happen. Or rather floods did happen, many, many, times over hundreds of millions of years. These rocks are found all over the world.

The evidence for a young Universe is also totally lacking. For some reason I don't hear religious scholars attacking the ideas such as galactic distances and then equate that to the length of time it took for many observable objects to reach the telescope focus. Those time scales are far greater than Earth history.

Sorry that Science didn't pan out the way that the old testament said, but who gives a damn? I am not aware of a single statement by Jesus regarding genesis. I have never understood how an entire religion could be put to such a fatal test. I think it is crazy to consider a religion so fragile that it couldn't handle a little geology.

I would rephrase it: If you are going to say that God created the Heavens and the Earth, just understand that this is how he did it. I have said many times that I am not out to skewer religion with glee. Religion is the last thing I think about when working.

To find ourselves this far past the Scopes trial, I am perplexed at the number of people who simply wave evolution away with the wave of a hand. We recently went through a spate of "Intelligent Design" attempts to refute evolution. The thing about evolution is that it follows a few simple rules. It can only be attacked here and there on the periphery, and those attempts are pathetic. The evidence in the rock record is about as overwhelming as it comes. Just like that pretty Hubble Picture of thousands of galaxies, billions of light years away. For some reason the intelligent designers leave that part out. You know, where the light took many billions of years, older than our own sun, to reach the telescope focus.

You can go outside and look at the dark sky. Even without a telescope, there are photons from these objects hitting your retina. They are just too weak for the human eyeball to see.

So BB and truthdweller, do you want to take this problem with everything being so OLD up with the astromomers and cosmologists? Have at it.

Is it time for me to show the maps of the Ordovician impact feature that lies 9000 feet beneath the wheat fields of NW Oklahoma again?

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 20, 2012 - 09:41pm PT
JAN can I ask you?

How would you teach an evolutional theory. We know that the erroneous "tree of life" idea that all primates evolved from each other from one cell isn't feasible. The "vertical dissension." And the "horizontal injection." is a dead end.

How much of a part do you say evolution has made to our appearance we see today?

Jus Ask'in
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