Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 6921 - 6940 of total 23145 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
May 28, 2012 - 01:04pm PT
Largo, are you stating that vacuum space is empty of energy?
-

What I'm trying to do is borrow scientific language that most people use and know to give some notion about how the mind works. This is not meant to be exact but to just give some flavor or what it going on. I vector this stuff off my friends at Caltec but I always get something screwed up but if you can grasp things in a general way then maybe it will help. It is not meant to be a proof or a hypothesis. But it also not this:

"They believe what they do based on thier best explanations. That may include explanations of mysticism or mythology which offer the best explanation in the absence of testable and repeatable hypothesis."

This implies an understanding based on the discursive mind or theory, whereas what I am saying is something based on direct experience quite different than what Ed is suggesting - which is a summation of the CONTENT of experience, of that which you can measure and so on.


Anyhow, we read in QFT that vacuum energy is an underlying background energy existing in space even when the space is devoid of matter (free space). So here we have a phenomenon (with a proper name) which is non-material. There might be edges to the fields that exist within this vacuum space but the space itself has no edges. Also, energy or stuff/objects are NOT located "in" this space but, rather, "have a spatial extent." Seen this way, empty space loses all meaning as a thing.

Now the interesting thing about raw awareness is that it is a kind of field
but seems to be more like the non-thing of vacuum space than a quantum field, because awareness doesn't bend to the qualia with the most gravity, you attention bends. If a lion jumps into your field of awareness, that lion has so much gravity it is virtually a black hole and your attention will literally be fused with said cat and cannot possibly escape to other thoughts and so forth. That means that attention in some fundamental way has the same properties as a particle ("spin," "polarization," et al).
But most of thus stuff cancels each other out leaving the field/mind empty in the literal sense of the word.

Of course this doesn't make perfect sense because it is used metaphorically. But the basics are just these:

Your mind, as you experience it, is basically a non-thing with infinite extension. Only your sense organs are limited in how far they can perceive. Any qualia can potentially enter your mind with no resistance. Getting past the various fields of personality and so forth, right down to the no-thing of it all, is the adventure.

And Marlow, you are "poor" because for all your pondering and mulling and conceptualizing, your awareness has remained fused to the stuff of experience, as your discursive mind has continued to grind on it, whereby apparently lost on you is any curiosity for or grasp of source, meaning much as you have enjoyed the trees, the experience of the forest - as greater than the sum of its trees - regrettably remains lost on you, poor Marlow, just as M. Miller's dowdy monks, in that dystopian junker, A Canticle for Leibowitz, remain dazzled by memoribilia ("trees").

JL
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
May 28, 2012 - 01:06pm PT
there are the atheists telling the Christians what they must believe
to be "authentic"!. LOL !

Even better:
there are the Christians telling the Christians what they must believe
to be "authentic"!. LOL !

Also good:
there are Christians telling themselves what they must believe
to be "authentic"!. LOL !

Research "hypocrisy." Christians practically invented the term amongst themselves.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
May 28, 2012 - 01:10pm PT
Until atheism can provide a similarly rewarding structure for people, the church has no competition... regardless of how logical or illogical their religious beliefs are.

Even better if it's reframed...

Until... a new discipline... emerges and develops that can provide a similarly rewarding structure for people, the church has no competition... regardless of how illogical its religious beliefs are.

The good news: It's on the way.

This current age is just too powerful for a competitive belief system not to emerge and develop. Keep the faith. (evidence-based, of course)


......

(P.S. Your peculiar pagebreaks or returns are playing havoc with my quotes of you. Knock it off. :))
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
May 28, 2012 - 01:14pm PT
"No .... You don't know.

Speaking for every single person on this planet is pure speculation and projection."


This is speaking for everyone as well, you've just fallen into the same hole you dug. When you say you know, you're again speaking for everyone... pure hypocrisy.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
May 28, 2012 - 01:15pm PT
Largo says:

"And Marlow, you are "poor" because for all your pondering and mulling and conceptualizing, your awareness has remained fused to the stuff of experience, as your discursive mind has continued to grind on it, whereby apparently lost on you is any curiosity for or grasp of source, meaning much as you have enjoyed the trees, the experience of the forest - as greater than the sum of its trees - regrettably remains lost on you, poor Marlow, just as M. Miller's dowdy monks, in that dystopian junker, A Canticle for Leibowitz, remain dazzled by memoribilia ("trees")."

Answer:

So this is what you project into Marlow. How funny, how strange - Tell me more - I'm curious to see more of your "Marlow"-mind.
WBraun

climber
May 28, 2012 - 01:16pm PT
Paul ...

I didn't use "We".

It was only aimed at YOU.

You're being stupid .....
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
May 28, 2012 - 01:24pm PT
Ha! Stupid is as stupid writes.
paperplate

Social climber
Boise
May 28, 2012 - 01:47pm PT
I like the GAIA approach to our world and how it can be extrapolated to extend out into the universe and beyond...
GAIA promotes life and the stasis that maintains life. And life is necessary for the final leap to self-awareness, the conscious mind.
So it appears the universe has at least one predetermined objective: to promote self-awareness.
But why would it want to do that?
This question is where science and dieters (diety believers) find themselves now: a common question, with no common answer.
In GAIA, life is the product of many intentional physical processes. This intent is unexplainable, but supported and documented by science.
But the fact that it is unexplainable, gives way to many a believer in diety.
Neither side stops at this unanswered question: science looks further back and deeper into the world of space and time, while dieters find the answers locked away in a conscious mind that knows no limits.
I don't personally think life is an accident, but at the present, I am incapable of fathoming any explanation for my existence other than pure physical processes.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
May 28, 2012 - 02:36pm PT
So this is what you project into Marlow. How funny, how strange - Tell me more - I'm curious to see more of your "Marlow"-mind.
--


"Project," in the psychological sense, means to introject my thoughts onto someone else and define that person accordingly. In fact I have tried to deconstruct your jabberwocky (some of your examples are funny and ingenious and it's remarkable that you are not a native English speaker) and my sense of your approach is yet again one who has real problems with the proverbial "unseen" and lumps it all in with priestcraft and snake oil.

But if you have an honest admission of your own world view differing enough from the party line, I'd certainly be game to hear all about it.

JL
go-B

climber
Habakkuk 3:19 Sozo
May 28, 2012 - 02:46pm PT
Isaiah 46:9 “Remember the former things long past,
For I am God, and there is no other;

I am God, and there is no one like Me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning,

And from ancient times things which have not been done,

Saying, ‘ My purpose will be established,

And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’


1 Peter 4:5 but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
May 28, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
Paperplate . . .thanks . . .nice post.

(HFCS seems consistently angry about things. I wonder how he got hurt.)
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
May 28, 2012 - 04:10pm PT
Largo

You said:
“The call is that anyone pointing out these gaps in our understanding is merely being ignorant, that the data is not in just yet but soon, surely in the next decade, we can "explain" how these things happened and were "created," that while we know there is gravity, there simply MUST be a graviton because there must be a physical cause for everything, excepting the big bang, and that sort of had a physical cause - Marlow's primordial acorn. “

Answer:
Have you read what I wrote about Big bang earlier? I ask because your speculation about Marlow’s view of Big bang as some kind of truth is wrong. I am not enthusiastic about repeating my points.

You said:
“And Marlow, you are "poor" because for all your pondering and mulling and conceptualizing, your awareness has remained fused to the stuff of experience, as your discursive mind has continued to grind on it, whereby apparently lost on you is any curiosity for or grasp of source, meaning much as you have enjoyed the trees, the experience of the forest - as greater than the sum of its trees - regrettably remains lost on you, poor Marlow, just as M. Miller's dowdy monks, in that dystopian junker, A Canticle for Leibowitz, remain dazzled by memoribilia ("trees"). “

Answer:
Once more your conclusion is wrong. As you see, I am curious about what’s going on in your mind, how your mind creates meaning to you about what’s going on in Marlow’s mind. And I see how your mind jumps to wrong conclusions that you could have avoided if you had paid attention to the data (what Marlow has written). You show me no data, just conclusions from the top of your ladder of inferences. I think this is a possible peculiarity of the way your mind functions - my hypothesis is that you have got a low scientific, high judgemental mind.

You said:
“"Project," in the psychological sense, means to introject my thoughts onto someone else and define that person accordingly. In fact I have tried to deconstruct your jabberwocky (some of your examples are funny and ingenious and it's remarkable that you are not a native English speaker) and my sense of your approach is yet again one who has real problems with the proverbial "unseen" and lumps it all in with priestcraft and snake oil. “

Answer:
As you have seen from my answers above, what you have done is just to “introject (your) thoughts onto someone else (Marlow) and define that person accordingly”. You keep on doing this all the time directed at people you see as opponents. I don’t know if it is a conscious strategy of yours or if it is just a “necessity” of yours having it’s origin in some personality trait. Possibly both. Acting this way, you are more of a polemicist and priest than a man wanting dialogue. If you had interest you could use this understanding of your communicative skills as a starting point for ethical reflection upon the way you communicate. In my view you pretend to be communicating while you are in reality preaching. In my view you are having a monologue, while Ed is trying to achieve a dialogue.

You said:
But if you have an honest admission of your own world view differing enough from the party line, I'd certainly be game to hear all about it.

Answer:
From what you have seen above I think you are the one having the clearest party line, almost as distorting of other peoples views as Fox news. You are acting like an old priest or schoolmaster who is not conscious about his own ignorance.

But for sure you’re a free man. You can decide to make a fair try to change or you can carry on at your polemical auto-pilot. It’s your choice.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
May 28, 2012 - 04:20pm PT
Ed

I am not taking it personally in the way that I am being upset or angry in any way. I am just taking "mind" seriously - trying to show how the mind operates. Do you find this to be a problem or disturbing? I could delete the post as easily as I wrote it.

Edited: Ok, maybe I should then reflect upon why I don't think I am taking it personally. ;o)
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
May 28, 2012 - 04:36pm PT
Marlow, I am going to flame you every time out because your are an easy mark because you take it all too seriously. Did it ever occur to you that I am intentionally assuming an evangelistic - sartorial tone simply to sound pompous and to c*#k around with this material. I never even revise this stuff. I'm just mostly free associating. Now when you hit your stride with that faux professor tone, you simply cannot expect not to told not to return to your corner with the pointy hat because it's not all that serious. And by the way I have the greatest respect for Ed and all the others and I know that here I will be accepted as a peer and also will be given no slack at all. that's the rules of this game and I find it great fun and I learn a lot. However attempts to invite you to actually say what you mean or believe or whatever are only contered with tedious blue wind from your pie hole per my personality disorders - as though I am not aware of the effect my words are having. I know your kind so well that having not mentioned your name in a month, I knew for an absolute fact that all I had to do was mention "Marlow's acorn" and you'd jump up like a dragon and set the table right with well reasoned arguments and sober sounding dross.

Whereas I was just funning, Marlow, and that, more than anything, is what makes you "Poor Marlow." It's not personal. It's entertainment. And you're the star now. So start barking.

And you didn't even give me any credit per the mind boggling ingenuity of "Marlow's Acorn," that little chunk of primordial shizat which was present at the beginning of time. Or that's what they say. Maybe you can tell us where Marlow's Acorn came from, seeming there was no "before" for the acorn to be "borned" or to develop or whatever. It was just there, apparently, much as the matter just does gravity.

Help a brother out here, Marlow. Ha det moro med materialet, min venn.

Now it's climbing time . . .

JL
MH2

climber
May 28, 2012 - 04:36pm PT
JL

Have fun with it.



Ed

Enjoy this thing that is definitely yours



jogill

It is fun to play with in its mathematical embodiment.



Ed

the tensor field representation of gravity from Einstein's theory would imply massless spin-2 bosons.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
May 28, 2012 - 04:40pm PT
Just to help you out Largo. I was not talking about your personality disorder. I was talking hypotetically about your personality. I promise to show you more of your non-thing unconscious mind later. Du vet - troll sprekker når de bringes ut i sola. Lol...

Good climbing!
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
May 28, 2012 - 06:05pm PT
Reason #3 to reject Christianity when choosing a religion:
Horus, Thor, Jupiter & Zeus are considered to be fictional characters. Jahweh is no different.
WBraun

climber
May 28, 2012 - 06:17pm PT
Already they've been rejected, the dog and Marlow.

Not because of Politics, God and Religion or Science, yep none of them.

Only because you're just plain stupid .....

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
May 28, 2012 - 06:27pm PT
May 28, 2012 - 03:05pm PT
Reason #3 to reject Christianity:
Horus, Thor, Jupiter & Zeus are considered to be fictional characters. Jahweh is no different.


Malemute,


I know you'll never accept it at this moment. Perhaps not now, but maybe one day in the future when you catch-up, then you will.

One day we all will know with certainty, no faith any longer required.

Yes, to modern man the GODs of old are considered to be fictional, but not to the Egyptians, the Vikings, the Romans, the Greeks.

Perhaps they were real?

Watch History Channel's Ancient Aliens, they even suggest this as a possibility.

The Good Book explains it. The Fallen Ones, The Fallen Angels. Read the Book of Genesis and The Book of Enoch.

The offspring of Fallen Angels and man were the Nephilim. They were giant and had GOD like abilities. Could these be the "mighty men which were of old, men of renown" that were worshipped as GODs as spoken of in The Bible?

Could very well be. It explains so much.


Gen.6
[1] And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
[2] That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
[3] And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
[4] There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.



There is but one GOD above all other self-appointed GODs: YHWY, and his son Yeshua.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
May 28, 2012 - 08:30pm PT
Personally I think the Scientific Story... as manifested in such works as...

 Cosmos, by Carl Sagan
 Dawkin's anthology
 a college senior science major's book shelf
 Ursula Goodenough's Sacred Depths of Nature

... is beyond the average man's ability to grasp. At least through the middle of the 21st century.

Sad, by some measures.

But then again, cultural evolution is a work in progress.

.....

Might soon be time to speciate. Peak oil, relocalization, population crashes, bottlenecks, geographical isolation, the natural law of "birds of a feather flock together" - over the next 500 years - might help with further speciation.

But this is too long-term for some to think about.

.....

But I for one (unlike E.O. Wilson) do hope H. sapiens evolves some way or other into H. superbus. That would be super.
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