Politics, God and Religion vs. Science


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Dr. F.

So Cal
Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 20, 2011 - 12:25pm PT
It appears that every time we talk the issues of either Politics, God or Religion

we always hear from the same people, they are on one side or the other

For example, Right Wing Christians, are completely opposed on almost every issue by the other side,

The Liberal, progressive, and normal independent folks, listening to science, and non-partisan experts

Lets discuss

let the old thread die, since this thread will be devoted to what we left talking about there

Credit: Dr. F.
Dr. F.

So Cal
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 20, 2011 - 12:29pm PT
I hope to keep this thread civil
anyone can post of course
Please do

but lets not let this thread turn into a pile of crap with name calling, and in fighting

Lets hear your thoughts, and what you you believe

and then we can discuss these beliefs
Post nice photos too

It could be a good thread
for once

Social climber
Polynesian Paradise
Jan 20, 2011 - 12:32pm PT
I basically don't even lurk, much less post, on the threads where folks have entrenched beliefs. But hey, how often does one get to help set the stage of and tone of one of these endless, argumentative threads?


People believe what they WANT TO BELIEVE! So I BELIEVE that most folks are convinced that THEY ARE RIGHT about whatever their belief is and also they believe, WRONGLY, I believe, that they can actually convince someone else whose beliefs are equally entrenched that their viewpoint is the right one.

I have an interest in discussing the process of evolution and speciation. (They are related but not the same.) But I haven't seen a thread where such a discussion is truly possible because the threads end up being ones about Science VS Religion.

And I agree with the OP that a thread should be a discussion about IDEAS, and that personal attacks should be kept to one's self. Nothing drives me away from a thread more quickly than personal attacks.

I also recommend that if you seen an idea up-thread that is well-expressed, and there is also an opposing one that comes later, if you don't have something NEW TO SAY, DON'T just jump in so that YOUR VIEWPOINT HAS THE LAST WORD. You aren't going to change anyone else's mind. That's my belief.

There, I think I'm done. Let's see if this becomes a civil discussion of IDEAS or falls to the depths that previous ones have.
Dr. F.

So Cal
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 20, 2011 - 12:35pm PT
My first observation of why these right winger believe the things they do is obvious!!

Special Interest has swayed them to be on their side, against science, for the purpose of giving more power to the special interest

Global Climate Change is a perfect example
why do they fight the science, - the energy industry special interest has bought off the right wing media to support their anti-scientific message

and it worked

the other big issues would be

Tax Cuts
Health Care
Media freedom of speech, Is lying OK
the bible
regulation of business and the financial institutions

and 100 more
Dr. F.

So Cal
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 20, 2011 - 12:38pm PT
People believe what they WANT TO BELIEVE!

So true
but if they are proved wrong
Then they have to decide, should I believe my wrong belief

or should I change my belief to be right, so then I believe the right things

Its a choice

some people make the right choice, so don't

Social climber
Jan 20, 2011 - 12:40pm PT

Not so sure that it is LEB that's DOMINATING this "CLIMBERS" FORUM...



Jan 20, 2011 - 12:40pm PT
The hypothesis I am working is pretty simple. And simplistic.

People fall into two groups.

Those that like uncertainty.

And those who can't bear uncertainty.

The people who can't bear uncertainty have to deal with uncertainty

if they cannot control other people.
Dr. F.

So Cal
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 20, 2011 - 12:42pm PT
There are two grougs
so true

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jan 20, 2011 - 12:44pm PT
"The Liberal, progressive, and normal independent folks, listening to science, and non-partisan experts"

see, f, you apparently can't help yourself...even when you call for civil discourse, you begin by insulting anyone who disagrees with you

1) assuming all conservatives are "right-wing" = assuming all liberals are socialists

2) assuming all christians are "right-wing" = assuming all liberals are satanists

3) referring to liberals as "normal"

4) asserting that only liberals listen to "non-partisan" experts

but, here, i'll play nicely and begin a thread from your list that typically brings out the emotions: abortion

i oppose abortion because i believe life begins at conception; so, the child in the womb, at any stage of development, is a full human being with the same right to life as you and me

Dr. F.

So Cal
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 20, 2011 - 12:46pm PT
So happy to have you booky
keep up the good posts
Dr. F.

So Cal
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 20, 2011 - 12:53pm PT
Here is my thought on the list above

God- the churches are the special interest
Evolution-the churches are the special interest
Tax Cuts- the rich are the special interest
Health Care- the insurance companies
Media freedom of speech, Is lying OK- the right wing media wants to lie
the bible- the church
abortion- the church, and the "Man's" control over women
Pollution- industry
logging- logging companies
mining- mining companies
regulation of the businesses and financial institutions- the businesses and financial institutions

they have money, and the power, and the people (right wingers) that will support their special interests

In complete opposition to science
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Jan 20, 2011 - 12:59pm PT

No way do I want to see the intelligent discourse on science versus religious supernaturalism mixed in with, and adulterated by, the junior high level discussions that characterize U.S. partisan politics. ;)
John Moosie

Beautiful California
Jan 20, 2011 - 01:02pm PT
God created science. It has its uses. I probably fit closer in my beliefs to the right wing Christians, though they wouldn't accept a lot of my beliefs. Does that make me abnormal?

I also oppose abortion because I also belief that this is God ordained life, but I don't necessarily belief that we should spend our energy outlawing it. I think that we should help women keep their children, or give them up for adoption, but that we shouldn't spend a lot of effort outlawing it. I feel the same way about drugs. Legalize them, tax them and use the tax money to help people overcome their addictions.

As for global warming, its happening, but not for the reasons that science is concerned with. Certainly many of the physical aspects of global warming are occurring, but the reasons have to do with the consciousness of man. Greed, lust, gluttony, pride, wrath, sloth, and envy and a lack of Faith in God are the primary causes of all of our problems, from wars to prolific abortions to suicide to global warming.

Science is a way for man to better understand how to live in this physical world. It provides the freedom to not be a slave to the physical and thus have more time to understand the spiritual. Without science, man was trapped by the endless need to grub for food and shelter, as his consciousness had descended to a very low level. With it he has more time to delve into the spiritual aspects of life.

The original fall of man stems from pride. All other problems arise from that pride.
Dr. F.

So Cal
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 20, 2011 - 01:13pm PT
Dr f.....u feel the need to justify your knowledge...

This is completely off base, Its not about me, or what I believe

I will always argue these basic ideas, I can not stop
It is a learning experience for me, I want to learn

My knowledge is the same as most of the others on my side, adequate to see through the BS special interests

Nothing could be more valuable to me, than having someone convince me that God exists, I want that

But the arguments don't not even approach this goal, they just prove how wrong these people are

was that a last word!!
yes, I think it was
John Moosie

Beautiful California
Jan 20, 2011 - 01:19pm PT
There is no argument that can prove God exists. There is only experience. I pray that some day you will have that experience.
Brandon Lampley

Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 20, 2011 - 01:22pm PT
Dr. F, let's suppose your list of divisive issues and the special interests that influence them is a good starting point. What other interests jump into each debate? Why? Who makes money? or gains power? or builds their Pride? Why do the PEOPLE that comprise any of these groups act the way they do? Are there very many people involved?

Let's also suppose you truly want to influence discourse, or more open thinking, or even 'changing the minds' of some folks you disagree with. We all know there's a minority on each end of the spectrum that is entrenched. They likely will not meaningfully challenge their assumptions, or substantially change their views. True on the left and right end.

Now the majority of folks fall in the middle. These folks swing our elections one way or the other; these folks are from all walks of life. Teachers, business people, factory workers; and daily they have influence on others around them too. Our children included.

And most of them do pay attention to argument and positions and information. Those from the ends of the spectrum that provide appealing arguments have influence. Those that model appropriate behavior and discourse gain respect, and more influence.

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Jan 20, 2011 - 02:17pm PT
A turd wrapped in bacon is still a turd, don't eat it.

I tend to agree with Boodawg and Jstan. I tied some civil discourse on some of these matters a few years ago and quickly realized the futility of it all. These things are better discussed in smaller groups face to face. Things get weird fast when just any unbalanced ego can chime in with their brand of know-it-allness. Discussions soon blur into senseless arguments, but good luck anyway, I hope you get some more intelligent responses.

Why do people feel the need to convince others on these matters? Does it really matter? Our lives will proceed just fine without ever having to have these futile arguments.
ron gomez

Trad climber
Jan 20, 2011 - 02:20pm PT
Listen, respect and accept. don't always have to be right, always don't have to agree and don't always have to disagree. I TRY to listen, respect and accept other peoples beliefs, views and opinions.
Dr. F.

So Cal
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 20, 2011 - 02:23pm PT
No one discusses these things Face to Face

Do you think I would discuss this with Fatty at Facelift

No, I would be busy eating Fatty's meat, and drinking his beer

These things can only be discussed in a format like this

I did not present the opportunity to debate: if we should debate this or not

WE will, so get with the program, and discuss
or go away, and do whatever you want on the other threads

This plant is super rare in Cultivation, it comes from Somalia
and will be extinct before the end of the Century
Whitesolona crassa,
I have two, so I can get seeds
Credit: Dr. F.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
Jan 20, 2011 - 02:25pm PT

Is compassion god? vice versa?

Hell, maybe i believe in god after all!
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