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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 25, 2010 - 02:56pm PT
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With the onset of winter weather (snowy & cold as Hades in S. Idaho) and a little extra time: I’ve been doing research.
My reference sources are: information on Super Topo, some great help by Clint Cummins & Marty - Karabine Museum, assistance from other Super Topo members, my own memory of carabiners I’ve acquired since 1970, and my collection of Chouinard and Great Pacific Iron Works catalogs.
My catalog set is: from 1968 on, most of the Chouinard, Great Pacific Iron Works, and early Black Diamond catalogs. Chouinard Equipment was purchased by Black Diamond in 1989.
What I have tried to achieve is a “timeline” of when various models of Chouinard carabiners were sold. The great help here is: Until 1984 Chouinard catalogs all had: A History of Chouinard Firsts. The history showed when each significant new piece of gear was introduced.
From previous postings and the Chouinard catalog timeline, we know Chouinard carabiner production started in 1957. It appears there were three-models produced prior to 1968, but all were marked Alcoa.
Here is a link to a thread on ST that has much good information on pre-1968 Chouinard carabiners. http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1235390/Chouinard-Carabiner-Hand-Forged-in-Ventura-Circa-1968.
2018 Edit! There has also been a wealth of information posted on this thread about the 1957-67 Chouinard Alcoa carabiners! After a early 2018 back & forth between the enthusiastic & knowledgeable collector Marty (Karabin Museum) & the biographer of Tom Frost & collector Steve Grossman, it appears there were only two significant variations of the first Chouinard Alcoa carabiners, although 3 models are implied in the 1960 DOLT catalog, the first catalog with a photo of the Chouinard Alcoa carabiner. Here’s a link to their discussion: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2906806&tn=20
The earliest Chouinard Alcoa carabiner is without Chouinard on one side. As of spring 2018, only 14 known examples have shown up in collections.
The only other distinctive variation of the Chouinard Alcoa carabiner has
a somewhat weakly marked CHOUINARD on one side & the same Alcoa markings as the above carabiner on the other side.. While quite uncommon, there are likely many hundreds of these, although they only show up on EBay a few times a year.
5/28/2019
Since this thread has been so wonderful, with participation from many, I have kept a copy of it as a word.doc & I also have most of the photos as jpegs. I will be glad to share with any legit historian or website that wants to repost the thread.
Ray Brooks aka Fritz
My FB page is here. RAY BROOKS IDAHO STORIES & MISADVENTURES
https://www.facebook.com/groups/425056734950713/
The second model
Here is the last Chouinard catalog timeline I could find. It is from the 1983 catalog. Later catalogs do not show the timeline, perhaps to reduce liability for older products failing.
In my photos of carabiners, I note information marked on the carabiners in Bold, model of carabiner, dates of production, and weight of carabiner from my digital postal scale.
Carabiner page from Chouinard 1968 catalog.
In what is usually known as the Chouinard 1972 catalog, the 1968 model carabiner is noted as having production moved to the Salewa factory, which was in West Germany.
In June 1972 Chouinard issued a recall on the Chouinard/Salewa carabiners. All recalled carabiners were tested and the gates were stamped tested. All subsequent production of the Chouinard/Salewa carabiner had the gate stamped tested.
Advertisement in Off Belay Magazine, June 1972.
Chiloe posted a photo of one of the very first Tested Chouinard/Salewa carabiners in the Eiger carabiner thread and has kindly allowed me to show it here as well.
From Chiloe: Others, however (I think in the first round of testing), were stamped with a much less distinct "T" before the 2200kp label. You can see the "T" right before the "2" on this one.
After the initial batch of Tested Chouinard/Salewa carabiners were stamped T, later tested carabiners were stamped tested on the gates.
The above carabiners were purchased in 1972, returned to Chouinard for testing, and received back with the tested stamp on the gates.
I have acquired some other Chouinard/Salewa carabiners that have W. Germany stamped on the opposite side of the gate. I am guessing these are from later production and give these a production date of 1973.
The Chouinard timeline notes a new carabiner style in 1974. It is described in the 1975 Great Pacific Iron Works catalog.
(In 1973 Chouinard incorporated and named his business: Great Pacific Iron Works).
The real 1974 carabiner.
At this point I get into carabiners that don’t show up in any of my catalogs. Clint Cummins has shared information on two models that are transitional from the 1974 D carabiner to a new model D that debuted in 1978.
The first transitional model looks just like the 1974 D, except the 4000 lbs is replaced with 2100KG.
I do not own an example of the second transitional 2100 KG D, but it looks just like the carabiner that was introduced in 1978.
In the 1978 Great Pacific Iron Works catalog, a new model D is introduced. Clint Cummins caught the fact that the catalog photo was however of the earlier, large nose D.
Note how the nose of the 1978 D is lower in profile than the carabiner shown in the 1978 catalog. The catalog copy notes “the gate latch width has now been made narrower---------.”
I must report still another Chouinard carabiner variant.
Per the above photo, they are only stamped on one side, but the side varies.
They match up as being a transitional carabiner from the 1974-77 Chouinard D marked 4000 LBS to the 1977 transitional D's that are marked 2100KG, but never show up in a Chouinard catalog, which were a transition to the 1978 D marked 2200KG that is in the 1978 Chouinard/Great Pacific Iron Works catalog.
I've sent a spare to Marty at the Karabine Museum, but we both think these are prototypes. Keying on the height & length of the nose, I date this prototype Chouinard biner to 1977, when Chouinard was re-working his carabiner line.
Per the below photo, with the 4000 lb. 1974-77 Chouinard D at the bottom, the never-seen in a catalog 2100 KG D, that looks identical to the 4000 lb. D just above it, & the new prototype, in the middle. They all have higher noses than the two biners above them, but the nose on the prototype looks different from the two bottom carabiners.
Click on the photos to enlarge.
In the 1978 Great Pacific Iron Works catalog two entirely new carabiners are also introduced: The Oval and the Featherweight.
The Chouinard timeline shows the Featherweight date of origin as 1977. It is made of hollow aluminum tubing and is very similar to hollow carabiners that Salewa came out with at about the same date.
Salewa also produced the hollow carabiners for Robbins, but it appears the Chouinard Featherweights were produced in the U.S.
EDIT On Nov. 4 2015 I discovered one of my Chouinard Featherweights is incised 1700 KG-U.S.A. In the 3 catalogs I have for the history of this carabiner, 1978, 80, & 81, it is described as 1600 KG-U.S.A. So another varient that is not in a catalog? Marty/Karabin Museum posted another 1700KG Featherweight on this thread on 5/27/14. By fall 2018, after seeing a very few more of the 1700 KG model on EBay, I think this was the first production model of the 1978 Featherweight, but the marking were quickly changed to 1600KG, after a very-short production run.
The 1980 Great Pacific Iron Works catalog asserts the Featherweights are made from aluminum tubing produced for Boeing.
The Chouinard Oval with a 2,000 lb. breaking strength shows up in the 1978 catalog, and remained in the carabiner lineup until 1989.
However, there were at least 4 design changes to the Oval over a 10 year period.
In the 1978 catalog the whole carabiner is round aluminum rod, with Chouinard stamped on one side of the body and 2000 KG-USA on the opposite side.
By the 1980 catalog, the Oval’s body had been slightly flattened, but the gate still used round rod. It is now also stamped on the gate, rather than the body.
Brian from SLC owns a better example of the 1980 Oval that is stamped on its gate, per these two photos.
By the 1983 catalog, the Oval’s body has been flattened more, while the gate still has round rod. It now has raised lettering on the body, with Chouinard on one side and 2000KG-USA on the reverse. The 1985 catalog shows the changes better than the 1983 catalog.
The 1988 & 1989 catalogs show a slightly rounder rod oval, with a different treatment on the raised lettering.
Here's photos of the 4 different style of oval.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 25, 2010 - 11:02pm PT
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GF!
Thanks!
I think I will be able to post "part II" of this tomorrow.
1980-1989 Chouinard Carabiners.
Everyone should have a hobby!
I have too many hobbies!
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Thorgon
Big Wall climber
Sedro Woolley, WA
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Nov 25, 2010 - 11:42pm PT
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Fritz et al,
Damn good effort there on the Chouinard carabiners, now I will have to dig out the pile and see what years I have. The most bizzare Chouinard carabiners I own are those crazy Hollow ones (Featherweight) that used to not close if accidently weighted when open; that is when I weighed 165lbs!!! I sure as hell am not getting on the scales after Thanksgiving Dinner and Pumpkin Pie with whipping cream!!! Hahaha
Cheers,
Thor
*I have 18 Featherweights, I was trying to 'go light' even in the 80's!
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 26, 2010 - 01:40pm PT
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Thorgon: Good for you! Glad you hung onto those Featherweight biners and the cool rope bag. The rope bag is not in any catalog I own, until 1983. I don't have a 1981-82 Chouinard catalog.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 26, 2010 - 03:33pm PT
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Part 2 of Chouinard Carabiners: 1980-1989.
In the 1980 Great Pacific Iron Works catalog a new carabiner is introduced: The Light D.
In my photos of carabiners, I note information put on the carabiners in Bold, model of carabiner, dates of production, and weight of carabiner from my digital postal scale.
By 1984 The information on the Light D carabiner was embossed on the body instead of stamped on the gate and it continued that way through 1989.
Brian from SLC has photos of three Light D's that are embossed on the body. The one with smaller embossing is embossed Chouinard USA, and does not match-up with any catalog photos I have. Likely it was a 1983-84 transition between stamping on the gate and embossing on the body.
In 1982 Chouinard introduced an “Improved” Featherweight carabiner, and three new “Reverse-Locking” carabiners.
Also by 1983: the name Great Pacific Iron Works had been dropped in favor of Chouinard Equipment for Alpinists. From 1984 on, the climbing gear catalogs were titled Chouinard Equipment. Likely this occurred, since there were now separate Patagonia catalogs for the clothing line, and Great Pacific Iron Works had been the umbrella name for the whole corporation.
Here is the 1983 catalog information on the Improved Featherweight. It is not hollow like the Featherweight from 1977.
Marty & the Karabin Museum has provided images of carabiners out of the Chouinard 1982 catalog. The only one that doesn't show up for the 1983 catalog is a new Reverse Locking Oval.
Here is the real Reverse Locking Oval, owned by Chiloe.
Here is 1983 catalog information on the four other Reverse-Locking carabiners.
The only one of the four I own is a Light-D Locker. I finally retired it this year and bought some Petzl lockers (younger climbing partners were “getting suspicious” of my ancient lockers.)
Three of the four locking carabiners would stay in the Chouinard catalog. The Marinabiner was discontinued in 1989, just before the end of Chouinard Equipment.
Here is a photo of a Locking Light D and a Big D Locker, owned by Spider Savage.
Here is a Pearbiner owned by Groundup.
In 1985 Chouinard introduced the New Standard carabiner. It also stays in the line until the end of Chouinard Equipment in 1989.
Interestingly, it looks exactly the same as the Improved Featherweight carabiner introduced in 1983. It weighs the same, and the catalog description is almost identical.
I must jump to the conclusion that the folks in marketing did a name change to help sales.
New Standard carabiner = Improved Featherweight Carabiner.
My scale shows weight as 1.8 oz, while the catalog copy shows it as 1.65. Fudging on weight claims, since lighter gear sells better: is a venerable tradition in the Outdoor Industry.
Here’s the New Standard Carabiner description from the Chouinard 1985 catalog.
Here’s an 1985 Chouinard ad comparing the new Standard carabiner with the original Chouinard carabiner.
In the 1984 & 85 Chouinard catalogs there are two-page sections describing the manufacturing and testing of Chouinard carabiners.
The carabiner information in each catalog is slightly different, but the 1985 catalog information page covers the basics very well.
The next carabiner introduced by Chouinard was the Quick Silver in 1988.
Finally in 1989, the last Chouinard Carabiner is introduced in the last Chouinard catalog. The BentGate Quicksilver would have a very short production span at Chouinard Equipment.
Chiloe posted some photos of a Chouinard BentGate Quicksilver that is anodized, below a similar model from Black Diamond.
Printed reports state Chouinard Equipment was forced into bankruptcy by lawsuits alleging that it failed to warn customers of the fact that rock climbing was dangerous. The company filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy on April 17, 1989.
After Black Diamond bought the assets of bankrupt Chouinard Equipment in 1989, in an employee buyout: they continued some of the designs shown in this thread.
That can be a chapter for some other author.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 26, 2010 - 04:25pm PT
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Nice Part 2!
I would classify these as 2 (slightly) different models.
The upper one has a larger exposed nose, exposed front area at the hinge,
and stamped lettering.
The lower one has a smaller exposed nose, flush front area at the hinge,
and raised (embossed) lettering.
The Light D exists with these 2 variations as well.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 26, 2010 - 05:01pm PT
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Clint: You do have a discerning eye (that I apparently lack).
When I measure the height of the nose on each of the above carabiners.
The lower one is 1.1 cm. high and .6 cm. thick at the gate-pin notch.
The upper one is 1.3 cm. high and .5 cm. at the gate-pin notch.
.
Carabiner on the left has the higher, but thiner nose.
Of the 20 I own, three are the lower profile, but thicker version.
Thanks for catching that stuff!
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
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Nov 26, 2010 - 10:17pm PT
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Don't forget the large locking D from the mid-1980's. Pictured here next to a locking light-D.
I like to use the light locking-D in combination with two standard light-D carabiners for a TR anchor.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 26, 2010 - 10:52pm PT
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Spider: Cool! The big one is a Pearbiner. Edit! Me bad! Per Clint input below: it is a Big D Locking carabiner. (I was drinking and watching football in between posting last night).
It is in my thread. 1983-89 production. Did you ever use it for a Munter-Hitch belay? The Chouinard catalog pushes that application for it.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
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Nov 27, 2010 - 12:25am PT
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Okay, I see it up there now.
Never used the munter-hitch. Used it with a stitch-plate, sans-spring.
I always wanted a Marinbiner but they were very expensive (at the time).
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 27, 2010 - 01:56am PT
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Spider's larger locking biner is the "Big D Locking Carabiner" from the 1983 catalog.
It is the same shape as the Marinabiner, but it's not black.
The Pearabiner is round on both ends. I have a couple of them.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Nov 27, 2010 - 02:06am PT
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My first locking was a pearbiner, IIRC, around that 80s time frame.
The reverse locking aspect was really neat. Why was it discontinued?
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Roxy
Trad climber
CA Central Coast
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Nov 27, 2010 - 09:34am PT
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great thread!
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
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Nov 27, 2010 - 11:07am PT
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Those reverse lockers feel kinda flimsy and may not have been popular. The locking sleeve can also move on it's own with vibration and random contact combined with gravity.
I like the because if you get dirt or sand in them they are easy to clean out.
I still use mine regularly and enjoy them.
I also have a good collection of the light D and light ovals from the mid to late 1980's. I had them retired for awhile in favor of nutrinos. However, I don't like the nutrinos much and brought the old ones back into service.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Nov 27, 2010 - 01:28pm PT
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Fritz,
Very Sweet! I love this history stuff.
Do you have a Chouinard 1976 catalog that shows the Chouinards first list ending with 1976? My 1976 catalog ends with 1975 on the Chouinard firsts list. The 1977 catalog lists 1976 items but I have not found a 1976 catalog that has 1976 on the list. The 1975, 1976, 1977 catalogs all look the same. the 1975 shows a photo of solid hexes. 1976 shows a photo of drilled hexes but only lists products up to 1975. 1977 catalog has 1976,1977 in Chouinard first list.
Another question: Do you have a catalog that shows Chouinard North Wall hammer with wood handle? Came out in 1976 in wood and was fiberglass in 1978.
Rock on! Marty
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 27, 2010 - 03:24pm PT
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Marty: Thanks for joining in. My two Great Pacific Iron Works 1976 catalogs both fit criteria for being printed in 1976. The List of Chouinard Firsts ends in 1975.
However I have a GPIW 1978 catalog that still shows bamboo North Wall hammer. Here is cover and that page.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Nov 27, 2010 - 11:42pm PT
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The reason I ask is that recently on Ebay was a Chouinard Northwall hammer that had a climbaxe hammer handle. The head design was different as well compared to this photo shown in the 1978 catalog.
My question is: Did the first production of Northwall hammers 1976 just have hammer handles? If so it could be considered another version of the Alpine Hammer.
Second question: Is there a Spring and Fall catalog created for 1975, 76, 77? This may explain why so many of us have a 1976 catalog that does not list the 1976 chouinard firsts in the listings. Maybe these catalogs that show Hexes with drilled holes are fall 1975 versions. Someday maybe a different version of the 75, 76 catalog will surface.
You know, people say that the Bible is confusing but tracking Chouinards gear and the reason for so many changes is quite a mystery at times. But these master craftsmen sure created a beautiful story of gear!!!
I may have a few carabiners to add to your ID guide.
Rock on! Marty
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Nov 27, 2010 - 11:49pm PT
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Marty, you mean this photo?
Yeah, pretty interesting. You get your hands on it yet?
Never seen anything like that Northwall hammer. Good stuff!
Cheers!
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2010 - 11:27am PT
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Brian: Glad to see you post here!
Marty: Very interesting questions.
The EBAY Northwall hammer that Brian shows a photo of was "a bolt from the blue to me."
I have no memory of that hammer-shaft variation, even though: I ran a retail outdoor shop from 1973-83, carried Chouinard climbing gear, was buddies with the reps, and tried to live the alpine climbing life-style(in between work, girlfriends, etc.)
As for your second question.
Second question: Is there a Spring and Fall catalog created for 1975, 76, 77?
Unfortunatly I can't answer that question either. My general memory is one catalog a year with the same format for several years: with yearly changes in prices. But I am not certain of that.
I would love to track down Dale Day, who was the Northwest Chouinard rep from about 1973-80. Last I heard he was back in California and importing fashion footwear. There certainly are other ex-Chouinard reps out there, who might remember that historical trivia.
Also Marty: by all means, post up more carabiners. I would like to copy and post your information into the carabiner timeline too.
Thanks Fritz
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Nov 28, 2010 - 12:29pm PT
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My observation with Chouinard catalogs shows that Chouinard had Spring and Winter newsletters. The famous 1972 catalog was used for three years where the pages stayed the same but the price list in the back changed. Actually for sure there are 6 different versions of the 1972(73, 74) catalog the original having the back price list all in one single column. In most of the price lists it states if it is a 1973 fall version etc. I have a strange feeling that Chouinard put out a new price list every quarter over twice a year but I am still trying to prove it.
The only way to find the changes in the 1975/76 catalogs is going through the pages. On some of the pages the photos are changed and on others new products are listed. This 1975/76 mystery will take some time to figure out. Stephanes 1977 Chouinard catalog (which is the same cover as the 75, 76), lists the 1976, 1977 products including the new featherlight carabiner.
I too do not have the 77 Chouinard catalog.
BRIAN....That's the hammer Im talkin about! I will check with Stephane to see if his 77 catalog shows a different photo of the Northwall hammer. The seller said that he purchased both of these pieces from ebay years ago. The Climbaxe has the newer (mountain outline) Camp symbol on it instead of the diamond Camp symbol, so I place the pieces around year 1976, but I can't seem to find any documentation of its existence. The search continues.........
Now back to carabiners!
Rock on! Marty
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Nov 28, 2010 - 01:49pm PT
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Got a couple that don't appear in the photo's above (but, might be):
All different size "2300 kg". One small "2300 kg" the others larger (and larger yet) "2300 kg - U.S.A."
Other side of the same biners:
Smallest size logo has "Chouinard U.S.A." The other two, slightly larger, just say "Chouinard".
Here's a variation of the 2000kg oval:
Markings on the gate.
Great thread!
-Brian in SLC
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Dick Erb
climber
June Lake, CA
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Nov 28, 2010 - 02:14pm PT
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Here are a couple of biners I've had for over 50 years. I think they are the first ones that Yvon designed and had manufactured. On one side is stamped 820 ALCOA 7075. 7075 is the alloy used. I don't know what the 820 signifies.
Chouinard is stamped on the other side. It is almost worn off of this one.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Nov 28, 2010 - 02:30pm PT
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My bet is that "820" is either a rod stock size, weight, or, some type of customer product number.
Seems to be commonly on the Alcoa marked carabiners.
Anyone know?
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groundup
Trad climber
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Nov 28, 2010 - 03:50pm PT
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Seeing as how the "7075" probably refers to the aluminum hardness (layman’s understanding here, sorry) the Brian’s guess on the "820" might be right. I have a buddy who is a retired engineer from an ALCOA plant here in West Virginia...I'll ask if he has ever seen anything like that on other products
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2010 - 04:25pm PT
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Dick: Thanks for posting up the great photos of the 1957-67 Chouinard-Alcoa biners.
Groundup: I just did some searching for what 820 means, in an aluminum rod and found no answers. Maybe your engineer friend has that answer. Thanks for posting here.
Brian: Back to the Chouinard catalogs for me, after your photos.
With some more research, what I find is confusion!
The Oval is introduced in my 1978 catalog with the information on the carabiner body and in all my catalogs: it stays that way to the end. Your Oval with information on the gate, may well be a slightly earlier model.
There is a change in how the information was put on the Oval Carabiner in the 1988-89 catalog. It was in a more flattened area per below photo.
It is an easier timeline on two of 2300KG carabiner you show. The only 2300KG carabiner that shows up in the Chouinard catalogs is the Light D.
The one I show in my time-line guide is also shown in my 1981 catalog. It has the information on the gate.
By the 1984 catalog the information on the Light D is on the body, like on the three you picture, and it stays there through 1989.
However the one with smaller embossing and USA after Chouinard does not show up in any of catalogs.
Stumped again, and it isn't "cocktail hour" yet.
Great! Let's see some more carabiner variations!
Brian: May I enter your photos in my timeline?
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Thorgon
Big Wall climber
Sedro Woolley, WA
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Nov 28, 2010 - 04:52pm PT
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Fritz,
Excellent Part 2 and you are probably right about the rope bag. I bought it around the time I graduated high school and took a year off to climb rocks! I wasn't aware of a second "improved Featherweight" and I wonder if I own some? Extremely likely because in the early years all my carabiners were Chouinard! Now except for a coulpe dozen Duvals all are Black Diamond, especially about a boat load of Neutrinos, but that is way down the time line! I actually prefer the notchless carabiner, but they are usually more spendy. Now if BD made a notchless Neutrino, that would be an excellent carabiner!!!
Keep up the good work,
Thor
Brian: awesome Climbaxe, Northwall hammers! Talk about collectors items, that is the King of Collectables!
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Nov 28, 2010 - 05:07pm PT
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Absolutely, if you can figure out where they go (I have no clue!).
Marty, we need a biner chart! Ha ha.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Nov 28, 2010 - 06:49pm PT
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Brian: awesome Climbaxe, Northwall hammers! Talk about collectors items, that is the King of Collectables!
Yeah, I just scarfed the photo of them from the auction. Didn't even come close to gettin' them.
Fess up, Marty. Ha ha.
I'm kinda wondering if the short handled northwall isn't marked as a C-F. The seller claimed it was, though. Maybe a proto only available in Europe from CAMP?
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Nov 28, 2010 - 07:52pm PT
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Brian....Chouinard Carabiner chart? But Fritz is doing a great job!
I tried scamming that hammer photo but couldn't get it. I still got it through the printing route. The seller claims the hammer is a Chouinard but I agree it probably is a Chouinard/Camp prototype. Still a fantastic piece to surface! I am curious what is stamped on the other side. My guess is it was made in 1975 which lead to the 1976 ice axe handle version.
I went back and looked at my catalogs and found that we have been Chouinarded again! I guess this proves that ice axes went to fiberglass in 1978. Both 1978 catalogs are totally the same except for the wood handle catalog says "one dollar" on inside cover and the paper is book grade. The fiberglass handle catalog says "two dollars" on inside cover and paper is coated and the only change is page 49 and 50 showing the ice axes with fiberglass handles.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Nov 28, 2010 - 07:59pm PT
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This is a later 1980s Big-D Locking Carabiner
Fritz you can add this to your project.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2010 - 08:45pm PT
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Marty,Thorgon, & Brian: Thanks for keeping this thread lively!
I did add Brian's photos to the timeline. I will definately add the Marty-biner too.
I was thinking it might be fun to reduce all the information I posted into a spread sheet, that is based on breaking strength embossed on the different models of carabiners.
Of course it would have to have minimum/maximum price each model has fetched at recent auctions.
Those prices might be a downer to people that think they are sitting on a fortune in carabiners.
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groundup
Trad climber
hard sayin' not knowin'
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Nov 28, 2010 - 08:57pm PT
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Thanks Fritz,
I've been following this thread for a while without comment and I thought it was time to say thank you for your hard work. Having this information out there is pretty damn cool. Here are some shots of another ALCOA carabiner and one of the reverse locking pearbiners.The locker has round sides so I guess it's a later model?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 28, 2010 - 11:03pm PT
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From Summit May 1960, this Dolt Hut ad for the "Chouinard III" alcoa biner.
The spine detail from the same ad campaign and presumably the same third run of Alcoa biners.
Please take a look at the markings on your Alcoas and see if they are in any way different than those shown above. Please post a shot in any case. It would be routine to make some alteration in the dies for bookkeeping purposes should a defect arise.
Any variation in the die details are of interest. Tom Frost mentioned that he thought that the original run of Alcoa carabiners didn't have Chouinard's name stamped anywhere on them and had a slightly more pronounced D shape than the ones shown above. Trying to avoid carabiner shifting was one of the early design goals.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Nov 28, 2010 - 11:11pm PT
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Maybe this will help your research.....
...from 1960 Dolt Catalog
Rock on!
Marty
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 28, 2010 - 11:24pm PT
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Marty- Any other shots of the Alcoas prior to early 1960? A shot of the Chouinard stamp on the spine of yours would be cool.
I too would become "nicely sprung!" LOL
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2010 - 11:45pm PT
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Groundup: Thanks for those "biner" photos. I'll work that Locker into the timeline tomorrow with credit for you.
Steve: Thank you for posting up those "pre-68" Chouinard biner images, and thanks to Marty again.
Maybe we will assemble enough "pre-68' Chouinard biner images, that the observant people among us will figure out the model changes in the production runs from 1957 to 1967????
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 28, 2010 - 11:55pm PT
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Thanks to you for thrashing with all this stuff and laying out the results so neatly.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 29, 2010 - 12:09am PT
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After looking at all the photos of the pre-1968 Chouinard biners on this thread and the other one, I only see one style of drop forged body.
Presumably this is the drop forging die that Yvon Chouinard borrowed $825.35 from his parents to pay ALCOA in 1957.
They all have the raised lettering shown in Steve's detailed ad scan and in Dick Erb's photos.
I see differences in machining of the body at the gate hinge.
Apparently the first model was machined on the Chouinard family drill press, and later by different people. There are several small differences, such as the shape of the gate at the hinge (angled or rounded).
 The "Model III" in the Dolt Hut ad that Steve posted has the milling very tight to the gate, and the edge is perpendicular to the part of the body at the hinge.
The biners shown on the Nose 2nd ascent rack appear to be of this type.
The only current example I've seen of this on both threads is the one just posted by groundup.
The "Other Model" (I?, II?, IV?) is not milled as tightly to the gate hinge end, and edge is more perpendicular to the main axis of the biner, instead of the small part of the body near the hinge.
Most examples (such as those posted by Dick Erb) are of this type.
one of the two posted by Dick Erb above
posted by Marty Karabin above
posted by Brian in SLC in the other thread
The above are all the "ALCOA" side.
Below are the "CHOUINARD" side images. All are the "Other Model", in terms of machining at the gate hinge.
posted by Dick Erb above
Brian in SLC
Larry Hamilton
Charlie D
Scared Silly (maybe a repost)
Black Diamond website
Doug Robinson
(this last one has a different shape of the gate near the hinge - long flat taper; others above are shorter and rounded)
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2010 - 12:24am PT
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Woohoo Clint!
When I posted: Maybe we will assemble enough "pre-68' Chouinard biner images, that the observant people among us will figure out the model changes in the production runs from 1957 to 1967????
I was hoping you would share your keen eyes and abundant knowledge on this difficult subject!
Much Thanks! Fritz
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 29, 2010 - 01:55am PT
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Fritz,
Thanks for doing all the real work of compiling the key photos from your catalog collection (and ads) and photographing your biners. Looking for the minor variations is something I like to do - sort of a carryover from coin collecting in the past.
Thanks also to Steve for his continued interest in this and to many others for sharing their images and information.
There are still 2 fairly simple questions which I don't know the answers to:
1. The 1960 Dolt Hut ad shows the Chouinard "Model III" carabiner.
This implies there were models I and II.
What were the differences between I, II, and III?
In my earlier post I noted the difference in machining of the body at the gate hinge of a few examples. I don't know if this is one of the differences, or if there are other biners out there which have more obvious and consistent differences. It seems like there would need to be at least 2 differences to have a I, II and III.
Or was the "Model III" a misnomer? Chouinard does not refer to it explicitly in later catalogs, and he didn't have his own catalog in 1960.
2. "Over the last 17 years the Chouinard Carabiner has gone through five major design changes. This last one was prompted by the pressures of inflation and dollar devaluations. But by changing from hot drop-forging the body to a new cold-forming process we not only saved money but produced a stronger, lighter, and more versatile carabiner." - Chouinard 1975 catalog, p.6
Clearly, the 1957/58, 1968, and 1974 are 3 major designs, which suggests 2 major design changes.
What are the other 3 major design changes of the 5?
(I believe Steve has asked about this in an earlier thread)
Are "Model I" and "Model II" 2 of the changes (vs. III)? The body milling difference doesn't look that "major" to me....
Was the 1971 version made in Germany considered to be a major change from the 1968?
It is also possible that Chouinard meant "17 years, 5 major designs", which is 4 design changes.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 29, 2010 - 02:30am PT
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One other thing.
In your edited and improved original post, you now use the word "embossed" quite a bit.
Embossing is really supposed to be about creating raised or lowered relief in sheet metal or paper (like the old notary public seal).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embossing
Since carabiners are not sheet metal, more appropriate terms might be good.
I like the term "stamped lettering" when the letters are cut into the metal, probably stamped with a small separate die.
When the letters are raised up from the metal, this is probably by striking from a die where the letters are cut into the die.
It could be an original drop forging die like the ALCOA model, or maybe from a separate die.
I like the term "raised lettering" for this. Maybe "struck" might also work, although that is more like a reference to manufacturing coins.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2010 - 09:59am PT
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Clint: Thanks for the input. Hopefully more information is forthcoming.
Re. my use of embossing. I was being lazy. I figured it worked for the raised lettering, but I knew it was not correct for the stamped lettering.
I will take your suggestions and change the lettering descriptions to "technically correct" wording.
A friend has now passed this thread onto one of the early Chouinard Equipment reps. Hopefully he can shed more light on how often the catalogs were issued, as well as arcane carabiner questions.
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groundup
Trad climber
hard sayin' not knowin'
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Nov 29, 2010 - 11:40am PT
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Fritz,
regarding the "820" on the AlCOA carabiners:
My friend who worked with ALCOA said he wasn't sure but it was probably something called a "casting or forging lot number" that meant very little except to the contractor and manufacturers. He said it concerned the die used to create the product. All this was followed by a big MAYBE.
He said all kinds of numbers had to be included on raw product and some type of identifications carried over to the finished piece. The government mandated all aerospace grade aluminum have source codes and markings for quality control.
Hmmmm....
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2010 - 08:24pm PT
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Groundup: Thanks for the information on 820 on the pre-1968 Chouinard Alcoa carabiners. I also posted your Pearbiner photo in the Chouinard carabiner timeline. Thanks for giving me permission to do that.
Now we need a photo of the Marinabiner. It is a large, black, Reverse-Locking D. Anyone want to share a photo with this thread?
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Nov 29, 2010 - 08:34pm PT
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Was there a photo of the oval reverse-locker upthread? I might have one of those in the closet.
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scuffy b
climber
Three feet higher
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Nov 29, 2010 - 08:46pm PT
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An aside about the catalogs, since Marty mentioned them...
I recall two versions of the "72" catalog. My first one had Klocker boots,
but I saw another version that had Haderer boots.
The catalog that I acquired to replace my original had the printed pages
with Klocker boots but the price list insert had the Haderer boots.
There are a couple items on the price list which are not in the actual
catalog pages.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2010 - 08:47pm PT
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Chiloe: None of the 4 Chouinard Locking D's in the 1983 catalog match his Oval in size and looks. The Pearbiner has nice curves, but looks like its name.
Descriptions are in the first 20 posts. If you've got something different: we would love to see it.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2010 - 11:23pm PT
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scuffy B: Thanks for mentioning your Chouinard 1972 catalog variations.
Per Marty's post on the subject: the 72 catalog was slighly changed for 73 & 74. I have a 72-74 catalog that also has a "hand-stamped" addition to the price list.
So----how often did the prices change??? With my Outdoor Retailer background: I can't imagine more than twice a year????
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 30, 2010 - 03:11am PT
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Also, on a different thread Marty posted a fairly comprehensive guide to figuring out the date of the catalogs which looked almost the same in different years:
1964 - one page list of equipment and prices
1965 - cover: climbers on North America Wall p4
1966? may not exist
1967 - cover: pitons and Yosemite hammer
1968 - cover: ice climber (2 versions)
1969? - probably same as 1968, but with Piolet in price list
1970 - cover: two ice climbers
1971 supplement - cover: single hex
1972 - cover: Japanese water painting; 10,000 catalogs produced; new version possible every quarter 1972-74 (5 of 12 possible versions seen); 1972 version has single column price list, undated
1973 - cover: same; 2 column price list dated 1973
1973 supplement - includes Crack'N Ups (not actually sold until 1975)
1974 - cover: same; price list dated 1974
1975 - cover: Machapuchare; solid hexes on p.8
1976 - cover: same; hexes with lightening holes on p.8; 35,000 catalogs produced
1977 - cover: same; 1977 in History list with Featherweight carabiner
1978 - cover: Cerro Torre
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Nov 30, 2010 - 09:56am PT
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Happy to add one more, from the bottom of my closet:
An oval reverse-locker which must be a contemporary of the D reverse seen earlier.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2010 - 10:50am PT
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Chiloe: OMG "I Ain't never seen one of them!" (as we say in Idaho)
In the History of Chouinard Firsts in the 1983 catalog, Reverse-locking carabiners are mentioned as happening in 1982.
Since, I don't own a 1982 Chouinard catalog, I don't know if that Oval was in that catalog.
Anyone out there with a 1982 Chouinard catalog? If so, it would be great to see a photo or scan of the page with reverse-locking biners.
Thanks Chiloe! Woohoo!
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Nov 30, 2010 - 01:54pm PT
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1982 Chouinard Catalog:
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Nov 30, 2010 - 02:03pm PT
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These Carabiners were given to me by Art Christiansen. He said these were the first run of Chouinard Carabiners, but they could be model III since it seems the Model I and II may have been testers which created the Model III?
Rock on! Marty
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2010 - 02:46pm PT
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Marty: Thanks for the shots from the Chouinard 1982 catalog. There's that Oval locker, that I didn't know existed until today.
May I post that catalog shot in the carabiner timeline, with due credit to you?
Also, thanks for posting the Chouinard Alcoa closeups. I think that first photo is the best closeup I've ever seen of one of those.
Chiloe: Likewise, may I post your Locking Oval photos in the timeline?
Thanks gents! Fritz
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groundup
Trad climber
hard sayin' not knowin'
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Nov 30, 2010 - 03:30pm PT
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thought you might like a better picture of a Chouinard rope bag.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 30, 2010 - 04:23pm PT
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Yes, Marty's photos of the 1957/58 Chouinard are the best I've seen also (and also the best condition - no surprise there, as you want the best condition in the collection!
[although gear with no scratches makes us feel a little sad as climbers :-) ] ).
Thanks for the catalog shots, which are key for making such a timeline.
Nice locking oval, Larry - I don't think I have ever seen one of those before.
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groundup
Trad climber
hard sayin' not knowin'
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Nov 30, 2010 - 04:35pm PT
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Hope this doesn't complicate anything but here are sharper pictures of the ALCOA I posted earlier:
and this last one shows a seam that wasn't finished under the gate hinge
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Nov 30, 2010 - 04:48pm PT
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Chiloe: Likewise, may I post your Locking Oval photos in the timeline?
But of course! You're doing the community a service here.
I might have one more surprise.
Back into the wayback machine, I mean the climbing closet, tonight.
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Gene
Social climber
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Nov 30, 2010 - 05:12pm PT
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Great thread!
I have these two ancient Chouinard hollow biners.
They are pitted and corroded. Any suggestions on how I can clean them up?
Sorry about picture quality.
Also, when did Chouinard move piton production, specifically Lost Arrows, overseas?
Thanks,
Gene
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Nov 30, 2010 - 06:29pm PT
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You might hose 'em down with some WD 40, then wipe them off. That should improve their look a bit, and, protect against any further corrosion.
You can't really get rid of the pitting, though. Any attempt at polishing them would probably alter them to the point of not helping.
Not hollow?
Do they say Alcoa on the other side, or, just blank, or?
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groundup
Trad climber
hard sayin' not knowin'
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Nov 30, 2010 - 07:39pm PT
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A bath in Navel Jelly works well to halt and even reverse some corrosion. You can get it at any hardware store. Brian is right about the pitting... it's pretty much here to stay and may affect the gate action.
WD-40 may not do much for you here as it's a very basic lubricant and water dispersal agent (thus the W.D. in WD-40) it is edible though... so you have that workin' for ya.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2010 - 08:27pm PT
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Gene: Thanks for posting those old biners. I don't have any better advice on cleaning if they are pitted. Otherwise, elbow grease, soap, and a scotch-brite pad work wonders.
Chouinard moved Lost Arrow production to Italy in 1975, per this page from the Great Pacific Iron Works 1975 catalog.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Nov 30, 2010 - 09:49pm PT
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Fritz, No problem on using my photos.
I am glad that you are creating the timeline so I can finally place secure circa dates on my carabiners. Keep up the good work!
I have almost every Chouinard/Black Diamond catalog so if you seek other info just ask.
Rock on! Marty
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Nov 30, 2010 - 09:56pm PT
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I don't know if this has anything to do with your mission or purpose on this thread, but...
Everything Chouinard created had that special mark of brilliance, because he was and is a brilliant fellow. Likewise, his right hand man, who created much of that stuff, Tom Frost, was and is also a great mind. Those two together formed a creative team unparalleled..., really. They were human, though, and some of their development of products amounted to an evolution, at times. So this is not a critique, so much as to note one particular point along the evolution. The original Chouinard carabiner had a deadly feature. One could not clip two carabiners into the smaller bottom end of it, and have both carabiners sit there side by side. Only one fit, and so sometimes the weight of a climber on those two biners would create an awful "snap," where one of the carabiners settled down into the bottom position. This was enough of a force to pull a piton right out, as did happen to some people. Of course, as Yvon told me one day when I was hob knobbing with him in Ventura, that if one knew what one was doing... such a problem could easily be avoided. Just don't ever clip two carabiners to that bottom position. The problem was, many didn't know the danger. But Yvon and cohorts soon redesigned the carabiner and fixed the problem...
Just a little historical note..
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groundup
Trad climber
hard sayin' not knowin'
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Nov 30, 2010 - 10:18pm PT
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Nice story!
I like that sentiment... "If one knows what one is doing..." hehe
I once heard the same thing said in defense of an old drilled ring angle piton in The Garden of The Gods CO. When a young climber pointed out that you could fall 30 feet and probably pull the piton Harvey Carter said "if one knows what one is doing...ect." but he probably added "ya dumb shit!"
oh, and his rack is made up of really old carabiners... the one I posted might have been his, either that or I found it in the Mystery Towers, can't remember.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2010 - 10:26pm PT
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Patrick: I am honored to have you posting your memories on this thread.
Any other input will be most appreciated.
I really enjoyed reading your Royal Robbins biography last year.(Royal Robbins: Spirit of The Age)
The same enjoyment applies to all the other quality information you share with the climbing community.
Thanks, Fritz
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Minor variations: anodized bentgate Quicksilver 'biners from the 80s.
The two blue ones at bottom are Chouinard, the other three are Black Diamond, so these must have spanned the company changeover.
Apart from the markings, they look to be the same hardware.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Markings on the Chouinard and Black Diamond Quicksilvers:
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2010 - 05:54pm PT
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Roxjok: Ah yes! I feel your pain.
My oldest Chouinard biners, had migrated into my “River Rescue Kit” for rigging a Z-Pulley system by about 2000. But at the start of 2010, I did not have a biner newer than 1984 on my rack.
I trust them, but the younger folks are amused or disturbed by their use.
The first blow to me this spring was walking into a great outdoor shop: Elephant’s Perch, in Ketchum, Idaho, and seeing Friends in their climbing hardware museum. I felt very old.
When Heidi & I were warming up for climbing with Donini in August: our younger “rope rocket” friend Kim, made me stop using my beloved Stitch belay plate, and forced a spare Petzl Reverso on me. Then she had a cow, when she saw my Chouinard and SMC Lockers from the early 80’s, and she forced me to use some of her Petzl lockers.
Heidi’s vintage 1990 Five.Tennies were mocked by Kim & Donini: as shoes no serious climber would wear. Heidi bought new climbing shoes this fall and thinks the 1990 Five.Tennies still work better on slabs.
So, I sold some old gear on E-Bay and bought some new. My hexes and Friends are retired to the "backup gear" bag.
If you count expenses (camera, photographic lighting fixtures,Ebay & Paypal fees), figure interest on investments made in the 1970’s, and want to make minimum wage: selling Chouinard climbing gear on E-Bay is not a profit center.
So-------my advice to you both is: Trust the old biners, and collect Boxed Marble Sets.
Heidi bought a set that dates back to Chicago World’s Fair of 1933 on the cheap this summer, listed it on E-Bay this fall, and got a windfall return on investment. The profit has bought our new set of Camalots, new biners, and a rope.
Boxed Marble Sets! Woohoo!
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2010 - 07:55pm PT
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Chiloe: Dude!
Thank you for posting up more rare/unknown Chouinard biners.
Those biners are BentGate Quicksilvers, and a non-anodized version is shown in the last Chouinard catalog, from 1989.
I don't know if there is a Chouinard catalog from later in 1989 that shows the anodized BentGate Quicksilver.
Anyone got a Chouinard catalog page that shows them anodized???
I will post these at the very end of the Chouinard Biner timeline.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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OK, I've edited my posts with the proper name, Quicksilvers.
Cool thread!
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Keep in mind that when Chouinard turned into Black Diamond in 1989, it was not a major planned event. It turned into Black Diamond, THEN they started converting the products to Black Diamond. The 1990, 1991, 1992 etc Black Diamond catalog shows many Chouinard products.
1990 Black Diamond Catalog:
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TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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Gene:
I have a number of old Coonyard biners.
Wanna clean those things up ?
Use them as key chain biners and clip your keys on you hip.
Garruns within a cpl months they will look 'show room' again (sans niks)
I tried a lot of things to clean up old biners but silly as it sounds just hang'm off your hip and be patient. It's the easiest way to get them buffed out.
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Gene
Social climber
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Thanks Trundle. I'll give it a try. Hope all is well with you.
g
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Of course all the carabiners shown upthread, starting with Chiloe,
are much later designs. It would be a rare thing, I imagine, to get a shot
of the original Chouinard carabiners...
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2010 - 07:57pm PT
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Marty: You the Man!
Thank you for posting those shot from the 1990 Black Diamond catalog. They were another "bolt from the blue" for me.
I had assumed, because of the Chouinard Equipment bankruptcy, Black Diamond would not be able to go forward with the name Chouinard on any gear.
As we say here in Idaho, when especially surprised by new and unexpected facts:
"Well------I'll be totally immersed in canine excrement!"
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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The 1990, 1991, 1992 etc Black Diamond catalog shows many Chouinard products.
I have a Chouinard hammer (so marked on the handle) that has a Julian date on it of 1317. Same design as the current BD hammer.
Yeah, leftover stock.
Bringin' it back to the older biners for Pat...ha ha:
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Brian,
Does your left hand biner say CHOUINARD opposite side from ALCOA or something else? Looks like it does. Version II.
The biner attributed to Scared Silly in post #40 is Chouinard Alcoa Version I with no CHOUINARD raised lettering.
I think that Alcoa Version II is the Dick Erb and Charlie D shape that is still a pronounced D shape with tiny CHOUINARD lettering.
Alcoa Version III is moving toward a modified D and has CHOUINARD lettering. Marty seems to have one of these. Still design #1.
Tom Frost came aboard with Chouinard in 1965 and tinkered with the carabiner dies. He recalls producing a modified D design prior to the "new" 1968 biner and after the ALCOA lettering was taken out of use in the body markings. This could be the precursor to the 1968 design (design #2).
Anyone have a 1966-1967 catalog to see when the Alcoa biners stopped being sold?
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Thorgon
Big Wall climber
Sedro Woolley, WA
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Gene~
I hope you read this, I was a CNC Machinist for a few years and the roto-finishers are the way to go! There are some with resin beads that are more gentle on aluminum carabiners, just a couple hours and your golden! You have to watch em' cause if you over do it the Chouinard name will be gone forever! There are a lot of machine shops that have a roto-finisher (deburring machine)just ask around, I am lucky that my neighbor still works a machine shop! He did about 20 biners for me & I will try to post a picture. The metal ones I have were real bad from dropping trees and they look good too!
Later & good luck,
Thor
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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You guys are all too avant-garde for me--I still have a few Army Aluminum 'biners made for the Second Mountain Division/Mountain and
Cold Weather Command.
Yeah, and I have a lot of older Chouinard 'biners too.
Re cleaning up corroded and crapped up metal: use a ammo reloader's vibratory case cleaner with corncob polishing media. Run it overnight and all the corrosion will be gone leaving bright clean metal behind. No worry about chewing off the raised lettering.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Steve,
> The biner attributed to Scared Silly in post #40 is Chouinard Alcoa Version I with no CHOUINARD raised lettering.
Actually that biner does have CHOUINARD raised lettering. (OK, somewhat vague letters, but definitely letters).
I haven't seen any examples which are unworn and don't have CHOUINARD.
(They might exist; I just don't know). And it looks like it can get worn off more easily than the ALCOA, so it may be a source of confusion.
For example, in groundup's detailed photos, ALCOA is very sharp, and CHOUINARD is quite faint.
> I think that Alcoa Version II is the Dick Erb and Charlie D shape that is still a pronounced D shape with tiny CHOUINARD lettering.
Does this mean smaller or larger lettering than the Version I?
I don't think it is possible to tell from these photos about a "pronounced D shape", because the appearance of the shape will vary depending on the camera angle.
And a different shape implies a different drop forging die, which is very expensive. Plus the 820 might be changed on a new die?
> Alcoa Version III is moving toward a modified D and has CHOUINARD lettering. Marty seems to have one of these. Still design #1.
Same comment on vague shape. Could be true, but I don't see solid evidence for it.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Hi, Clint. Hope you are well, my friend. I'm not sure about your last
sentence. Do you refer to the evidence for the earliest shape I described? Or something else? I'm gettin senile and don't always follow the meaning or what people are referring to.
Best to you,
Pat
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Dear Pat,
When I said "vague shape" I was referring to Steve's descriptions of the photos in my post #40, and trying to classify them by differences in shape.
Some do look slightly different to me, but I think it could just be different camera angles.
I can definitely see how 2 biners in the narrow end of the photo above could have that "biner shift" problem.
Do you recall an earlier shape much more angular than the one above?
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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1965-1967 catalog states "Each year the original has undergone changes in design and manufacturing with new springs, rivets and stronger gates, resulting in smoother action and increase in strength of almost 1000 lbs."
It seems that from 1957/58 to 1967 the carabiner body stayed the same?
The guts however changed.
1968 - 1970 catalog states: "In 1968 after ten years of production, the Chouinard Carabiner was completely revised and a new model has resulted. It has the following characteristics: higher strength with reduced weight, smoother corners to enhance handling and reduce etrier shift, easier assembly into carabiner brakes, and comfortable racking of three standard angles. The gate opens under body weight, and two etrier carabiners and then a 11mm rope can be clipped in."
Rock on!
Marty
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Does your left hand biner say CHOUINARD opposite side from ALCOA or something else? Looks like it does. Version II.
The biner attributed to Scared Silly in post #40 is Chouinard Alcoa Version I with no CHOUINARD raised lettering.
Yeah, Steve, both do (look to be the same vintage biner to me).
Scared Silly's has Chouinard on it, just, well worn. I've fondled it in person. The biner.
All the Chouinard Alcoa's look the same to me. Variations look slight enough to just be differences in finishing?
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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So does seeing these beat-up ancient biners remind you, just a little, of how life felt when they were shiny?
The oldest Chouinard in my collection seems to be this one, also seen earlier in Clint's post. I acquired it in
1968 from Bill Thompson (BT), who likely had purchased it directly from Chouinard's shop in Ventura some years before.
Despite all the scratches you can make out "820" and "Alcoa" in raised letters on one side.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Even with a magnifying glass, there's no evidence of "Chouinard" on the other side.
Doesn't look to me like it was there.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Larry, I'm seein' letters...
The Alcoa biners I've seen that are especially worn always have a very well raised "Alcoa", and, a sometimes really difficult to see "Chouinard".
Maybe someone with better skills can "see" it?
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Maybe, Brian, but with a glass I couldn't make out any sign of "Chouinard."
Those marks you circled are indentations, like the other scratches, rather than raised letters.
You can tell because they have paint in them instead of around.
On the other side, "ALCOA" was more apparent by glass than it is in the photo; the lettering on that and "820" is still raised.
However, this biner has clanged its way up a fair number of walls.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2010 - 02:48pm PT
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Chiloe: Re your So does seeing these beat-up ancient biners remind you, just a little, of how life felt when they were shiny?
I liked that: it made me smile! It appears you and those old biners are still functioning, despite the wear.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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1965-1967 catalog states "Each year the original has undergone changes in design and manufacturing with new springs, rivets and stronger gates, resulting in smoother action and increase in strength of almost 1000 lbs."
It seems that from 1957/58 to 1967 the carabiner body stayed the same?
The guts however changed.
Thanks, Marty - that answers a question I've wondered a lot about!
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dogtown
Trad climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
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Do you have any Frost stuff? (Old school)? Hell I do. What some?
DT.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Talk about chasing the ghosts of long ago! LOL
Chiloe- Very cool biner! Looks clean to me!
If another Version I shows up to back up Chiloe's then Tom's memory is correct. Otherwise, the task of typifying the Version II & III raised lettering will have to wait until somebody can either measure and report or compare directly should somebody have both generations.
The body shape changed subtly, eventually becoming the Modified D. Cardboard cutouts of the interior clearspace would be a great way to tell apples from apples!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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> If another Version I shows up to back up Chiloe's ...
Not if it is another worn biner like Chiloe's.
If a biner with very little wear shows up that has no CHOUINARD,
that would be some evidence for a Version I without "CHOUINARD" lettering.
Hopefully this is what you meant.
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dogtown
Trad climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
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Cool, collation.
I have a bunch of old stuff from GPIW. A lot of which was given to me at no cost, by those who made it or someone leaving it behind on a few routes. I also have a bunch of early model friends one of which I think is a proto type (no markings) also found. Hell, for year my rack was made up of things like this. Too poor to buy anything.
DT.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Assuming that any lettering was punched, however faintly, it might be possible to 'see' it using x-ray crystallography, or something along those lines. Perhaps not cheap, though.
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groundup
Trad climber
hard sayin' not knowin'
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Has anyone thought that some of the differences mentioned above (tighter gate, slightly more D shaped, and some others) could have just been due to different dies used for the same models and types or variations caused during final fit and assembly?
Seems like we could almost endlessly pick out differences. I just looked at an old sling full of ovals I have from the early 90's and I notice slight variations in two or three from the same era... just asking what the guys with the super keen eyes think.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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On topics Chouinard ... 180° South is a cool little movie about a modern adventurer
who sails to Patagonia with a loose plan to recapture the spirit of Chouinard's 1968
Fun Hog expedition. Yvon himself eventually joins the trip, as does North Face founder
and fellow Fun Hog Doug Thomkins, and a remarkable young woman named Makohe,
a native of Easter Island.
Well worth watching if you haven't. Free on Netflix.
http://www.180south.com/index.html
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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groundup- Differentiating the early dielots, one from another, is what we are trying to accomplish. The actual body shape is more to the point than simply picking out differences in the manner, extent and degree of finishing.
Yvon works the vice squad! Nice shot Clint!
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groundup
Trad climber
hard sayin' not knowin'
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Yes. I understand about the die lots. But, the YC picture that Clint posted illustrates my point perfectly. A few taps with a hammer, a twist of the vise, a little massaging to make a tight gate fit and... whalla! Slightly different carabiner but same batch.
Please understand I am not questioning the workmanship or quality control of YC and the gang, merely wondering out loud about the reality of mass production for us 'biner hungry wall rats.
Again. I'm not saying they could have "left off" a major feature like the Chouinard logo or shaved down the nose of a carabiner just to throw a wrench in the work of this conversation 50 years later but there had to be some interesting differences that occurred which will not show up in any catalog or fit neatly in the timeline.
That sounds pessimistic but it isn't. I love this kind of thing.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2010 - 01:28pm PT
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OK?? So correct me if I'm wrong?
The early Chouinard Carabiner Missing Link/Holy Grail would be one with the Alcoa markings, but no Chouinard lettering on the opposite side of the body?
Like the one Chiloe posted, but in new shiny condition?
Let us be sure that Missing Link/Holy Grail carabiner does have some lettering still on it.
Brokedownclimber mentioned: Re cleaning up corroded and crapped up metal: use a ammo reloader's vibratory case cleaner with corncob polishing media. Run it overnight and all the corrosion will be gone leaving bright clean metal behind. No worry about chewing off the raised lettering.
As Thogon mentions: it would be possible to tumble an aluminum biner long enough to remove all markings.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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A more pristine example of Version I is necessary to really put this to bed. The ability to identify the first run of this particular carabiner is historically significant. Even breaking down the five different designs identified in the Chouinard literature is challenging with all the resources available here on the ST.
Fun to put it all together! Who doesn't like a good quest, after all!
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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The Holy Grail is awesome!
Now we all see that Steve has been hiding it all along.
Rock on! Marty
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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I told them we already had one!
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Just rumaged to the bottom of the closet looking for other
pre-67 Chouinards, but that one is the only survivor. It
never occurred to me over the years to set aside and not
use up the old gear.
I do have a dozen or so of the 1968-71 model and half a dozen
more of the 1971-72 Chouinard/Salewa defective ones, with that
indistinct T for tested stamp.
Found a few Eigers down there, but the Bedayns and Stubai steel
have long since vanished.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Were it not for Tom's memory, I wouldn't even know to try to find such an obscure carabiner! Somebody will pull one off of hammock duty!
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Time to check the bilge for some old Chouniard biners.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Cool, Joe.
That one is in fairly good condition, compared to some.
With the typical faint CHOUINARD lettering.
How did it get those grooves? From hauling / pivoting in pitons/hangers?
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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I am shameless Clint-these were used as a backup to failed gear on long ocean passages.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Harrr! Belay that request me hearty! As long as I don't disturb anyone's siesta!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 11, 2010 - 05:05pm PT
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Guido- Any chance that you could measure the CHOUINARD lettering on your Alcoa?
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 11, 2010 - 05:52pm PT
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Guido: I've heard of sleeping with stuff you like, but never of using old Chouinard biners for your hammock.
Also: I am still hoping that some sailor like you bought and saved a Chouinard Marinabiner.
It is a large, black, Reverse-Locking D from the 1980's. Anyone want to share a photo of one with this thread?
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Dec 11, 2010 - 05:59pm PT
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Sorry Steve, the hammock is in Santa Cruz and I am in NZ. Will have to wait until the sun again is high in the northern hemisphere for me to plop into the hammock.
Searching the bilge at this very moment for a black, reverse Marineerbiner.......................
Somewhere, I do have a stash of old Chouinard biners..............oh lordy what storage unit, what country and what box?
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Dec 11, 2010 - 06:26pm PT
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Fritz-voila, sitting out on the lifeline in the cockpit, all ready to have the locking device freed up again for the season. "Corrosion Resistant"? Always difficult to get use to the "reverse" concept. We now use these as a backup for hookup to the chest harness in nasty conditions or for a quick attachment to the security of the cockpit. Quite a stash of these Marinabiners onboard.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 11, 2010 - 10:56pm PT
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Guido! Dude! You sly sailor-man!
Thanks for the great Chouinard Marinabiner photos! (I liked the one of where it has been on your rigging, for the last 25 or so years,
I will put the great photos in the Chouinard biner timeline, on page one of this thread, with due credit to you.
Thank you so much!
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 11, 2010 - 11:32pm PT
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OOOOps!!! my last Chouinard Carabiner timeline post on page one of this thread was: Nov 26, 2010 with, Part 2 of Chouinard Carabiners: 1980-1989.
It has been too long, since then: to edit that post.
Here is the catalog poop on Guido's photos of his Chouinard Marinibiner.
It has been sailing with him since the 1980's.
It was produced: 1983 to 1988.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 14, 2010 - 11:13am PT
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Harrrr! That locker belongs to Davey Jones! LOL
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 10, 2011 - 08:24pm PT
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I'm posting a photo of a Chouinard carabiner identification guide "cheat sheet" I made up, since this thread got long and complex.
To use the "cheat sheet":
1. Find the breaking strength on your mystery Chouinard biner (if shown). Otherwise look at the first 3 models listed without breaking strength.
2. Figure out if your biner is shaped like a: D, oval, or pear.
3. Look for markings on your biner that match markings on ones with your biners breaking strength and shape.
Photos and catalog descriptions of all but the two earliest Chouinard carabiners are on the first page of this thread.
Information on the two earliest Chouinard carabiners is scattered through the rest of the thread.
Click on photo for a larger version.
Yes! Locking Chouinard carabiners are not on this "cheat sheet." Look on page one of thread.
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Jan 10, 2011 - 09:49pm PT
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Annual, Marinabiner anti-corrosion workshop. One of the first things you learn on a boat is the lovely affinity that aluminum and stainless have for each other. Kind of a relationship frozen in time.
Antiseize, lamb fat, Neverseize, Tef Gel are just a few of the lubricants we use to prevent this.
So I have to laugh when I read the old copy from GPIW that Fritz provided for us:
"make for a very safe, strong and corrosion resistant carabiner, making it the perfect choice for marine purposes."
Still they have their place and with a little upkeep they function.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 10, 2011 - 10:37pm PT
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Guido! Thanks for the marine carabiner update.
I like adding my new qualifier to your ST handle.
Guido---The Sly Sailor-man!
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Thorgon
Big Wall climber
Sedro Woolley, WA
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Jan 10, 2011 - 11:22pm PT
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Fritz~
I found this thing in my climbing partners backyard and it was powder-white!!!
Chouinard/Salewa after rotofinishing!
Thor
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 11, 2011 - 10:27am PT
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Thor: That biner looks better than it likely looked when new in 1972.
After tumbling: I'm impressed you still see the Tested stamped on the gate.
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ericz
climber
Ogden, UT
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Jan 23, 2011 - 11:21pm PT
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ericz
climber
Ogden, UT
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Jan 23, 2011 - 11:30pm PT
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ericz
climber
Ogden, UT
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Jan 23, 2011 - 11:40pm PT
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OOOoooopppps!!! Should have scrolled all the way through the post,... oh, well. Carts before horses.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 23, 2011 - 11:56pm PT
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eritz: No problem. Your photos are very, very good. Thanks for adding those to the thread!
As you now know: your biner is vintage 1957-1967. The likely timeline: has it towards the later of those dates, but------history of the Jurassic is only available from us fossils.
If you have more than one of those, and want to trade: email me?
Best Wishes!
Fritz
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 14, 2011 - 08:28pm PT
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I finally got to touch one of the pre-1968 Alcoa Chouinard carabiners.
When I was in Teton Mountaineering in Jackson, WY last week: I got to look over their small, but significant, "climbing gear museum.
Long-time Teton Mountaineering owner Chuck Schaap was “pretty-sure” he had one of the Chouinard-Alcoa D’s on display.
We found one after a short search.
Heavenly music didn’t play when I fondled it, and Chuck took it away from my grasping fingers in short order.
I’m still looking for one of these to complete my collection. I will trade anyone that regularly posts on ST: two of any of the newer Chouinard D or oval biners. I have original made in USA Lost Arrow pitons to trade too.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 28, 2011 - 12:29am PT
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Jim Phillips just sent this mint condition Alcoa my way!
Thanks Jim!
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11worth
Trad climber
Leavenworth & Greenwater WA
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Aug 28, 2011 - 01:18am PT
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You are welcome Steve!
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BooDawg
Social climber
Butterfly Town
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Sep 12, 2011 - 06:55pm PT
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Fritz: I appreciate this thread and your interest in these biners. If you are coming to Facelift and if you still have not acquired one already, I have a pre-1967 for you if you don't mind a "KB" stamped into the gate. Thank you for your positive attitude and the generousity of your spirit. Please advise me on the best way to get this biner to you.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 12, 2011 - 07:01pm PT
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Fritz! I want some of those carabiners for training weight.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Sep 12, 2011 - 07:15pm PT
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I don't know if it was Black Diamond nomeclature, or under the last years of Chouinard, but I coulda sworn the Improved Lightweight was referred to as the Almost Oval biner.
In fact, I coulda sworn I bought mine at the Patagonia Outlet store in San Francisco, and that would have been pre-BD, ~87 or 88.
PS, I needed an excuse to get out of the office. I wandered down to the truck and grabbed my harness out of my pack. Low and behold an almost oval biner on a sling, bummer, stamped black diamond. But then, the biner next to it, also an almost oval, is stamped Choinard. Both are stamped 2100 kg on the opposite side of the spine.
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BooDawg
Social climber
Butterfly Town
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Sep 12, 2011 - 07:35pm PT
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Jim D: If you REALLY want to do some weight training, I have some old Cassin steel biners I might let you have. Interested? See you at Facelift!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 12, 2011 - 08:58pm PT
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Ken- Does the CHOUINARD lettering on your biners look like the one that I just posted?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 12, 2011 - 09:01pm PT
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I'll bring a forklift, see you there.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 12, 2011 - 09:36pm PT
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One Shoulder-Bruising Load To Go! Steel bongs for Jim.
And here I thought that one shining Blue Camalot satisfied...
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BooDawg
Social climber
Butterfly Town
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Sep 12, 2011 - 09:45pm PT
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Yes, Steve, exactly, except yours is pristine and mine is somewhat used. I DO have some steel bongs (sans lightening holes!) to go with the Cassin biners!!
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2011 - 10:36pm PT
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BOODAWG! RE your very, very kind offer:
Fritz: I appreciate this thread and your interest in these biners. If you are coming to Facelift and if you still have not acquired one already, I have a pre-1967 for you if you don't mind a "KB" stamped into the gate. Thank you for your positive attitude and the generousity of your spirit. Please advise me on the best way to get this biner to you.
I am embarked on day one of a two-week outdoor sales-rep tour of Montana & North Idaho.
I will miss Facelift.
I am also missing Donini climbing at City of Rocks on his way to Facelift.
I am however hoping to make Facelift next year.
Thank you so much for the Chouinard biner offer. PM into you.
Heidi and I are looking forward to meeting you.
Facelift next year, or Idaho anytime.
Best Wishes,
Fritz.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 12, 2011 - 10:57pm PT
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A maroon Scotchbrite pad and a little light work and you would be impressed with the results.
Details, details...
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 25, 2011 - 09:47pm PT
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WOOHOO!
Received my gift of an original Chouinard Alcoa D from BooDawg!
I am most grateful, and I will try to use this carabiner: only to promote good, and to offer an alternative to “Polititard” threads on SuperTopo.
In the Chouinard 1968 catalog: a new version of the original D carabiner is introduced. Per the attached copy from the Chouinard 1968 catalog: it was lighter, stronger, larger, and would reduce “etrier shift” with the wider area at the bottom.
Here are photos of the original 1957-67 Chouinard D: BooDawg gifted me, next to a 1968-71 Chouinard D. Obviously there are some slight differences in the shape of the two D’s.
The 1957-67 D is faintly marked “CHOUINARD”, then on the other side is marked “820 R ALCOA 7075.
The 68-71 D is only marked: “CHOUINARD” in much larger letters than the 57-67 D.
Weight!
1957-67 D weighs 2.4 oz./69 grams.
1968-71 D weighs 2.3 oz./65 grams.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 10, 2011 - 12:08am PT
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The Boodawg gift of a original Chouinard Alcoa D cleaned up pretty well with:
Scotchbrite pad, elbow grease, and a little "Bar Keepers Friend" cleaning powder.
The carabiner still shows the deeper wear of climbing use, but the oxidation has been cleaned up.
I do believe power tools or tumbling cleaning: might well eliminate the raised lettering on these biners.
Much thanks again to Boodawg for his gift of an original Chouinard/Alcoa D, for my research and photos.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Oct 10, 2011 - 12:50am PT
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At one point or another I've owned pretty much every carabiner that GPIW/Chouinard ever manufactured. Those hollow ones were the sketchiest, but we thought they were proud at the time.
Lost a bunch of them to Alan Nelson in a pool game. Friggen' Shark.
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Oct 18, 2012 - 04:24pm PT
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I went through this Thread and didn't see a photo of this one. The spine isn't flattened like most <C> carabiners.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 18, 2012 - 04:57pm PT
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Banquo: Yours look like the original Light D, except for the round spine on yours. (I will admit to not having a fine eye to note minor variations within carabiner models)
Edit note: Thanks to Clint's post, I now note yours is likely an early variation of the Light D in the 1980 Chouinard catalog.
It is discussed toward the bottom of the first page of this thread. That version was manufactured from about 1980-83.
Unfortuantely I can't add it to the timeline on the first page of this thread, since my "edit" function has expired on that part of the page.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Oct 18, 2012 - 05:43pm PT
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Banquo,
I agree yours is different from the 1980 catalog photo, due to the non flattened spine cross section.
I have one which has the (slightly) flattened cross section:
There is also a similar REI version which does not have the flattened cross section, but has a wider nose and a different shaped indent in the body near the hinge:
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 25, 2012 - 04:00pm PT
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Chouinard Mini-Biners first show up in his 1984 catalog. By the 1988 & 89 catalogs, they are featured with anodized gates.
Two Mini-biners I bought on E-Bay last summer. From the seller's listing, I couldn't tell what size they were, but he mentioned Chouinard and they were cheap.
Stamped on one side Chouinard-Italy and on reverse: K USE 300KG
I also see plastic carabiners in the 1986 and later Chouinard catalogs. Unconditionaly Guaranteed to be their weakerst carabiner!
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whitemeat
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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Dec 25, 2012 - 05:53pm PT
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I found this at the bottem of el cap. it looks like it was hand forged
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 25, 2012 - 06:59pm PT
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Whitemeat. What do you think? Looks like a rusted steel carabiner from the photo? Maybe an old cleaning-biner, since steel biners last better when you are hitting on them with a hammer?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 25, 2012 - 07:39pm PT
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Looks like an army issue (no markings) or possibly a Cassin by the gate detail.
Is the biner smaller than normal by your eye? Army steel biners tend to be. Army aluminimum ovals on the other hand tend to be larger than average.
If you take a Scotchbrite pad to the spine you will likely see the makers mark.
A consistently round cross section steel carabiner like the one that you seem to have is probably formed starting with rod stock rather than forged.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 26, 2012 - 04:16pm PT
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My slumber has been restless of late. Carabiners flit through my dreams, as my subconscious tries to remind me of tasks needing work on this thread.
Yesterday, I dug out old Chouinard biners, and my pile of catalogs, then researched the subject. (Heidi noticed and wickedly inquired if I was "playing with my toys."
The result is "revisionist" information! The only older post I can edit on this thread is the very first, but it is now edited.
I posted a photo of the Chouinard Alcoa carabiner BooDawg gifted me at the start of the timeline.
I updated the list of Chouinard catalogs I own. (I would pay for those I don’t have.)
I revised the Oval carabiner history timeline to reflect information from Chouinard catalogs I didn't possess when I started this project.
Hopefully I will sleep better now.
Here's the change in Oval history.
The Chouinard Oval with a 2,000 lb. breaking strength shows up in the 1978 catalog, and remained in the carabiner lineup until 1989.
However, there were at least 4 design changes to the Oval over a 10 year period.
In the 1978 catalog the whole carabiner is round aluminum rod, with Chouinard stamped on one side of the body and 2000 KG-USA on the opposite side.
By the 1980 catalog, the Oval’s body had been slightly flattened, but the gate still used round rod. It is now also stamped on the gate, rather than the body.
Brian from SLC owns a better example of the 1980 Oval that is stamped on its gate, per these two photos.
By the 1983 catalog, the Oval’s body has been flattened more, while the gate still has round rod. It now has raised lettering on the body, with Chouinard on one side and 2000KG-USA on the reverse. The 1985 catalog shows the changes better than the 1983 catalog.
Heres a photo of the 3 styles mentioned above. Note the $4.00 price sticker on the 1978 Oval at top.
The 1988 & 1989 catalogs show a slightly rounder rod oval, with a different treatment on the raised lettering.
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turd
climber
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Dec 27, 2012 - 12:35am PT
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Awesome thread!
Kinda inspired me to go see what I still had lying around.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 27, 2012 - 12:43am PT
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Turd-Dude! If the biner on the upper right with the anodized blue-gate, has lettering on it that says Chounard?
It is worthy!
Close-up please!
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turd
climber
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Dec 27, 2012 - 12:55am PT
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Unfortunately, it's a just a REI clone like the one pictured further up thread.
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climber bob
Social climber
maine
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Dec 27, 2012 - 08:23am PT
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great thread..ive got to go to the attic to look through my old biners..in the 80s my buddy found a few light ds that had hairline cracks radiating out fron the gate pins.i found a couple also..i think he wrote a letter and got a reply.ill ask and let you know what the reply was...to long ago..
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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May 27, 2014 - 08:34pm PT
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More than a well deserved bump, I found a few more Chouinard carabiner mysteries.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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May 27, 2014 - 08:38pm PT
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On the left is the carabiner on the cover of the 1982 Chouinard catalog. On the right is my 1982 (I believe) light D locking carabiner. The 1982 carabiner is easy to spot since it has two sleeves covering the gate which make up the locking device. All of the other locking carabiners have only one sleeve creating the lock. The machining on the gate takes the place of the second locking sleeve. Looking at the knurled sleeve on both carabiners, the catalog carabiner shows a spiral that stops midway down the locking sleeve, all of the other locking carabiners shown on this thread shows full spiral sleeves like the 1982 carabiner on the right has. All three of the locking carabiners shown in the 1982 catalog have half spiral sleeves. Also note that the right carabiner has a sleeve stopper added on top preventing the sleeve from turning too much upward. Does anybody out there have a sample of this half spiral sleeve carabiner?
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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May 28, 2014 - 12:41am PT
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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Jun 30, 2014 - 10:50am PT
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First Run Alcoa to add to this awesome thread!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jun 30, 2014 - 01:21pm PT
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Cool - finally a more solid confirmation of the "nameless" version,
like Larry Hamilton's.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 30, 2014 - 01:29pm PT
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Very nice catch Roots! Thanks for giving me permission to also post your photos at the top of the first timeline post on this thread.
Did you get any owner history that you can share, with this very early Chouinard D?
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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Jun 30, 2014 - 01:38pm PT
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Right after acquiring a few of these, Steve contacted me to tell me the good news (re: first production run). Steve - would you mind relaying the back story on the manufacturing of these Alcoas?
What I can tell you about the seller is that he had intentions of opening a gear shop in Patagonia. He started to collect some gear for his store, but he wound up staying in the US and the gear sat in his storage unit all this time.
I didn't find out when he was planning on opening the store, but the items were pretty much late 50's-60's.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Jun 30, 2014 - 07:14pm PT
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Roots shows the first Alcoa carabiner Model I. Observing the gate bottom of the Model I, it has a rounded design to the gate allowing the hinge to open freely. The advertisement in the 1960 Dolt catalog shows Chouinard Alcoa Model III carabiners having a rounded design to the gate bottom also. So my question is: Where do the Alcoa's with the flat bottom gates fall into this line up? Are the flat bottom gates Model II's? Why would Chouinard have the perfect design, then go back to a basic design, then go back to what he started with and call it a third design?
I - Alcoa no "Chouinard" curved gate bottom
II - Alcoa and Chouinard Flat gate bottom?
III - Alcoa and Chouinard curved gate bottom
Is there a model IV?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Back in the late 1950s Tom Frost was just starting to spend time at Tahquitz on the weekends. Yvon's sales style in the beginning was out of his pockets and car trunk. On one such trip, Yvon fished around in his knickers and handed Tom one of the first run of Alcoa carabiners.
Tom looked at it carefully and told Yvon that it must has been made in Europe as "such things weren't made here and besides that where's your name? Of course Yvon knew very well what he could or couldn't do and didn't need to listen to me."
This was a pivotal moment and likely the last time that anything leaving Yvon's hand would be without name or attribution.
Realizing his oversight Yvon had CHOUINARD ground into the second die lot which explains the rather faint and ghostly nature of the result.
The way this sort of business was conducted is that Alcoa invested in the dies to make the carabiner bodies and Yvon would then place an order for them. Once a certain number of bodies are die forged then the die needs to be retired and a new one fabricated. Usually small design improvements are incorporated into the drawings for the next die set. Each new generation of Chouinard carabiner (new die set) was usually eagerly announced. The Model I & II in the Dolt catalog are likely both from the first die set though the results are distinct.
This first order was likely fairly small as Yvon didn't have a lot of capital to throw around and the result is the rarest production Chouinard carabiner around. These are the first nameless Alcoa biners that I have seen and give the story a verifiable starting place historically.
Similar carabiner shapes were being produced in Europe at the time in both steel and aluminum so I suspect that Yvon had something to show a draftsman by way of example to create the drawings that are necessary to produce the dies to allow production of his first carabiner.
By the mid 1960s Tom began to moonlight on his aerospace engineering career to begin producing the drawings necessary to allow many of the classic hardware items to be produced without nearly so much time spent profile cutting each workpiece by hand. Imagine cutting Bugaboo pitons out of thick alloy sheet steel with a bandsaw and you will quickly grasp the leap in efficiency.
Tom joined Yvon in Chouinard Equipment full-time by 1965 and we are still using most of the designs that came from this amazing collaboration.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jul 12, 2014 - 09:26pm PT
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Bump for the original by an Original...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 16, 2014 - 01:02pm PT
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Bump for the good old days...
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Ney Grant
Trad climber
Pollock Pines
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Feb 17, 2015 - 12:42pm PT
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This thread got me going through a set of old Chouinard carabiners and I noticed one that didn't seem to be covered in the thread. It looks like a pre-1968, not stamped Alcoa, only Chouinard, but with the number 071 stamped onto both the gate and body. Maybe he was putting serial numbers of them for a while?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 17, 2015 - 01:03pm PT
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The 071 was definitely added by the owner and not original to the die or manufacture. As I mentioned up thread, the dies would be replaced every few years depending on the production volume and each new die would potentially carry some subtle improvement in shape or design.
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Ney Grant
Trad climber
Pollock Pines
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Feb 17, 2015 - 01:17pm PT
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OK. I considered that but I didn't think someone would stamp on the gate as well as the body. 071 seems kind of strange too, but very possible someone numbered their carabiners at a time when they were more dear.
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Feb 17, 2015 - 02:45pm PT
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I posted this photo on some other thread. Probably belongs here. I picked it up at the base of Queen's Throne on Shuteye Ridge.
Edit:
Got to looking at it. There are no marks on the other side and no load rating.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 17, 2015 - 06:09pm PT
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Those two carabiners look to be pre 1972(edit) and I would say Banquo's looks like the more recent of two successive die lots by the slightly more prominent nose at the gate closure and smaller but cleaner hinge pin details.
Ney Grant's earlier version has conspicuously more peening and the appearance of having fatter hinge pin stock.
Carabiner finishing usually gets cleaner and more refined with time and better tooling and production methods.
Both of you guys take a photo of the nose area with the gate open please. What we are likely to find is an L shaped notch which is a bit deeper on the later version approaching the configuration of the 1968 modified D carabiner with the prominent nose and deep notch for the cross pin.
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Feb 18, 2015 - 08:13am PT
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The finish isn't anything like we see today.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 18, 2015 - 08:57am PT
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Regarding the last few posts of carabiners that are only marked CHOUINARD. Those carabiners date from 1968-71, per the attached photos and the timeline established earlier in this thread.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 18, 2015 - 01:40pm PT
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Thanks for the correction and I went back and edited my previous post.
I get the 68 and 72 versions confused. The "new" Chouinard carabiner isn't the load rated Salewa version except in my overstuffed noggin and I associate the later flat version with the 72 catalog when it was later. My bad...for lack of referencing.
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Ney Grant
Trad climber
Pollock Pines
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Feb 19, 2015 - 08:45am PT
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Here is the notch on mine. Looks very much the same to me as the other.
Since Banquo used an original Chouinard nut to hold open his biner I used an old Chouinard belay device on mine.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 19, 2015 - 08:57am PT
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I agree
NG-Does the pin material on your carabiner look like steel to you (as it is on Banquo's biner) or aluminum?
I recall that there was an issue with the gates having cracks form from the peening process right in the direction of loading around this time.
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Ney Grant
Trad climber
Pollock Pines
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Feb 19, 2015 - 10:08am PT
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I think steel. Interesting thing is that the pins are clearly two piece like a rivet. Are they all like that and this was worn down? I thought they were just pins.
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Ney Grant
Trad climber
Pollock Pines
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Feb 19, 2015 - 03:12pm PT
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BTW, this is where these old carabiners live, in a glass topped coffee table in my living room. You know you are getting kind of old when you realize some of your gear should not only be retired, it should be behind glass (although I never used the googles or the iron ice pitons - I bought those in a climbing shop in Katmandu in the 80s and they were being sold as good equipment).
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 19, 2015 - 06:51pm PT
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I am curious about the pin detail too obviously at this point in production.
What does the other side look like?
Plenty of nostalgia in hardware to be sure. Very nice display!
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Ney Grant
Trad climber
Pollock Pines
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Feb 19, 2015 - 07:19pm PT
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The other end of that pin looks like one material. The other pin is reversed. It also (although harder to see) has one end that has a concentric ring that shows it is actually two pieces. A pop-rivet would look something like that.
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Feb 19, 2015 - 07:28pm PT
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I think there has been a conclusion without foundation.
Does the pin material on your carabiner look like steel to you (as it is on Banquo's biner) or aluminum?
Using a rare earth magnet extracted from an old hard drive, I have decided that the the pin is not steel. The magnet has no attraction to the pin but is attracted to the spring hidden in the gate.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 19, 2015 - 07:54pm PT
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Could be stainless as it should be.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Feb 19, 2015 - 08:06pm PT
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Steve Grossman wrote in 7/2014:
The way this sort of business was conducted is that Alcoa invested in the dies to make the carabiner bodies and Yvon would then place an order for them. My reading of an excerpt from Yvon's autobiography "Let My People Go Surfing" is:
"1957 - borrowed $825.35 from parents for drop forging die at ALCOA".
I.e. Yvon paid for the die.
Is this incorrect, and the $ was to pay for the first run from the die?
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Feb 19, 2015 - 08:27pm PT
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Could be stainless as it should be.
True and I admit I didn't think of that.
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Gunks Jesse
Trad climber
Shawangunk, NY
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Aug 25, 2015 - 06:36pm PT
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Thought I'd post a pic of a 1972 "T" stamped first round tested carabiner in awesome shape.
Also a Royal Robbins Salewa tested carabiner. Can anyone help with the year on this? I assume it was tested in the factory in West Germany?
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 5, 2015 - 04:43pm PT
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Gunks Jessee: That Robbins/Salewa biner dates to around 1978, per this ad.
Yesterday, I discovered one of my Chouinard Featherweight biners is incised 1700 KG-U.S.A. In the 3 catalogs I have for the history of this carabiner, 1978, 80, & 81, it is described as 1600 KG-U.S.A. So another varient that is not in a catalog?
Marty/Karabin Museum posted another one on this thread on 5/27/14.
I have now added this to the first page of this thread. It does appear to be a fairly rare varient of the Featherweight. These two are the first I've noticed.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 7, 2015 - 12:22pm PT
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Back on 12/2/2010 Marty/Karabin Museum posted some pages out of the 1990 Black Diamond catalog. That was their first catalog after their employee buyout of Chouinard Equipment.
It was also mentioned that for the first year or two Black Diamond still sold a lot of gear marked Chouinard.
On 12/1/2010 Chiloe posted a Chouinard Anodized Bent Gate carabiner that first apppears in the 1990 Black Diamond catalog, and also a Black Diamond Anodized Quicksilver.
I have also found some Chouinard Anodized Quicksilvers & a full color range of Anodized Chouinard Bentgate Quicksilvers. I suspect the two Anodized models with Chouinard were sold in 1990, until the original stock ran out, then changed to being marked, first with a Black Diamond-diamond logo at the right of Chouinard, then fully marked with the Black Diamond name & logo.
Does anyone have a blue Anodized Chouinard Quicksilver biner they would like to sell, or trade other Chouinard biners or pitons for? Let me know if you do?
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2015 - 02:10pm PT
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Tad! Thanks & thanks for posting up. Do you have any of those Chouinard-Salewa biners that are not stamped Tested? That's what I called about.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 21, 2015 - 03:29pm PT
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Here is a rarity.
I suspect that this was a prototype ahead of die production as it is simply stamped. The interesting thing about this biner is that it came to me with a bunch of gear from a donor that didn't seem to have any direct connection with Chouinard Equipment so this may have been the first generation of this particular design and hence something that may have a place in the Timeline.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2015 - 07:00am PT
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Steve: That's an unusual one for sure. I've never seen one like it. Tad: Thank you for looking, but I had a memory of you posting last summer that you had Chouinard/Salewa biners that weren't stamped tested. But then, I'm planning on hiding my own Easter eggs next spring. I owe you some fine wine when you visit.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 22, 2015 - 07:19am PT
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Nice pics....did someone just steal Cosmic's rack?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 22, 2015 - 11:44am PT
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Hey Fritz,
Do you know about the incident that prompted the testing procedures in the first place? You may have already posted that information but I have always been curious about the actual failure event.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2015 - 11:59am PT
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Steve: Here's the stuff. It's also on the first page of this thread.
In June 1972 Chouinard issued a recall on the Chouinard/Salewa carabiners. All recalled carabiners were tested and first the body of the carabiner was stamped T for tested, then later gates were stamped tested. All subsequent production of the Chouinard/Salewa carabiner had the gate stamped tested.
Advertisement in Off Belay Magazine, June 1972.
Tad: Average price for Chouinard/Salewa biners on E-Bay for the last month or so is around $16.00 each + shipping. Clean those guys up with some elbow grease & Bartenders Friend powder, and make some easy money. Thanks again.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 22, 2015 - 02:15pm PT
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Thanks Fritz- Presumably these were failing at the thinnest point in the carabiner body just above the top of the gate contact point opposite the hinge. I am still curious about the actual incidents where these biners failed.
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Master Blaster
climber
Chandler, AZ
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Jun 26, 2016 - 02:00pm PT
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I found this one in a pile of climbing stuff I bought 30 years ago. Looks to be an old one.[photoid=462191]
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reed b.
Trad climber
Bishop
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Dec 24, 2016 - 02:25pm PT
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friends, new to the site and this is certainly an older post, but it caught my eye when looking for info on some of the climbing equipment my dad handed down to me.. have a few biners from the early days, all variations from chouinard i believe...we used to boulder with yvon and royal robbins in camp 4 in yosemite; now that was over 50 years ago!! anyway, my photo shows one chouinard d style with 'chouinard' on one side and '820 alcoa 7075' on the other side.. the ovals are both the full round hinge and one edge rounded types... other photos are of my 'climbing wall' which shows photos of my mom and dad, Gen and Burt Turney, as well as old pitons, hammer, and a claudis simond 'simond securit' two piece ice axe of my dads... just introducing myself and seeing if anyone here remembers our family.. thanks for your time and interesting posts... enjoy.. reed turney[photo[photo[photo[photoid=483462]id=483461]id=483460]id=483459]..... not sure why other photos are not showing for me (?)
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 24, 2016 - 04:13pm PT
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Reed b! Thanks for joining in. I'm uncertain why all your photos don't open, but they do show up as photos downloaded to Supertopo.
Here's your photo of the two early ovals & the Chouinard Alcoa carabiner that dates from 1959-1967.
You can post those other worthwhile photos by clicking on the photo button & then click the Select a photo you've previously posted button. That will take you to your photos uploaded to Supertopo & you can select them, one at a time to add to your previous post, if you choose to edit it, or to a new post.
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reed b.
Trad climber
Bishop
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Dec 24, 2016 - 07:26pm PT
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fritz... thank you for the warm welcome... i think i will enjoy some camaraderie with those who were around when (as i say it) 'climbing wasn't cool'... i will try to attach those other photos in a little while.. i do wish i could get my camera to take some better close ups... my time spent hiking, ski mountaineering, and rock climbing as a youth was the very best of times.. such memories are precious...again, my thanks to one and all...
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Feb 19, 2017 - 03:14pm PT
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Finally found a Marinabiner for the Karabin Museum. Traded Tom Taber my silver 1983 Big D for his 1983 black colored Big D he was sporting at the rock gym.
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I Live In Phoenix
Trad climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Apr 17, 2017 - 10:01am PT
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Hi guys, perhaps someone knowledgeable here can help me identify an old Chouinard carabiner I have.
This one is stamped with "2300 KG USA" on one side of the spine and "CHOUINARD" on the other.
From the pics in this post it looks like it's from the early '80s, but I can't really tell for sure.
Thanks!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 17, 2017 - 12:59pm PT
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You have a Light D, 1983-84.
Many of these biners were made, so it's not a rare item.
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I Live In Phoenix
Trad climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Apr 20, 2017 - 08:36am PT
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More curious than anything. Thanks!
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
13,000 feet
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Apr 22, 2017 - 07:32pm PT
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thanks for posting
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jonnyrig
climber
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Thanks for posting this history. Just bought a rack from an old guy that had a number of those "tested" 1970's versions.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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This is my favorite of the "modern" designs.
It came out when I was in college, but I felt it was too expensive so I only had one (I probably found it).
To make it look even nicer, I sanded down the casting seam and filed off the "CHOUINARD/SALEWA" and "2200kp".
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Farley
Mountain climber
Portland, Oregon
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Thought this might be a nice addition to the thread. First-generation belonging to YC, found on a route and confiscated by Mr. Roper.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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That's a beauty.
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ClimbingOn
Trad climber
NY
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That's a real treasure. Thanks for sharing a pic of it.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 9, 2017 - 07:45am PT
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Farley: That Chouinard Alcoa biner has some significant history. WOW! YC= Yvon Chouinard SR = Steve Roper WOW!
Does the other side have Alcoa on it like this one?
That would make it one of the earliest known model of Chouinard carabiners.
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Farley
Mountain climber
Portland, Oregon
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Yes, I believe the same although a little more worn. Steve passed it on to me with his old gear a few years back. History!
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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Jun 13, 2017 - 01:55am PT
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Recently I won a auction from eBay of many unused pieces of gear from the 1950s. A mint condition Chouinard carabiner was included in the auction, and to my surprise it turned out to be a first generation 1958!!! No Chouinard word on the carabiner. It is interesting that on the carabiner from the auction on the top of the gate is flat straight across, where the first generation carabiner shown from Roots has a rounded top. Not sure which one is older but showing the difference.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 8, 2017 - 08:33am PT
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Marty: Nice catch on the difference in the gates on those two first-generation Chouinard Alcoa biners & congrats on adding one to your collection! Of course, it is tempting to say that yours is an earlier variation, but then again, it could just be that it was bad quality control & the gate on yours didn't get rounded off like on Root's & my first generation Chouinard Alcoa biners.
Here's a closeup of my first-generation Chouinard Alcoa biner gate.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Fritz, I am more blown away from the Chouinard carabiner coming out of a simple eBay auction. The eBay seller states that the items were purchased from a estate sale in California. All of the items are mint condition except for a scuff on the ice axe handle. The main reason I purchased this lot was because of the hammer holster, which turns out to be a Dolt 1958. So in this lot is Chouinard first product sold to the public, and Dolts first product sold to the public.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 8, 2017 - 12:05pm PT
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Marty! Thanks for posting.
Re your mention of: Heres a mystery for Fritz….Spring Workbook 1989 lists a “new Big Offset D” carabiner, Was this carabiner ever marketed? There is no listing of this carabiner in the 1989 or 1990 catalog. Unfortunately the 1989 Spring Workbook does not show a drawing of the new Big Offset D carabiner.
I confess to knowing nothing of the Big Offset D carabiner. I'll ask a friend who was working as a Chouinard/Black Diamond representative at about that time, if he remembers anything. Since it doesn't make it into the first Black Diamond catalog in 1990, I have to assume it didn't happen, however there might well be prototypes & or salesman's samples of it out there. From the description, I'm picturing a slightly larger Quicksilver. 1990 Black Diamond weight on the Quicksilver is 47 grams & the Big Offset D shows in the workbook photo as 49 grams.
Marty: per your thoughts on the anodized Chouinard Quicksilver & Bentgate Quicksilver biners, I agree with your timeline & thoughts. I think Black Diamond sold a fair amount of gear with only Chouinard on it in 1990 & sometime in 1990 started adding the Black Diamond logo stamp to Chouinard.
Per your thought: Fritz can decide if the colored Quicksilver carabiners are to be considered a Chouinard product, or are they to be listed as Black Diamond since they were being produced after Chouinard filed for bankruptcy. The colored Chouinard Quicksilvers were probably in production mid 1989 created for the 1990 season.
Per below photo, I have a Anodized (colored) Quicksilver biner that is marked Chouinard, but not stamped with the Black Diamond logo. In this photo, the top carabiner has the Black Diamond logo stamp right of CHOUINARD.
I also have two anodized Bentgate biners that are not stamped with the Black Diamond stamp. In this photo one with the Black Diamond logo stamp is at top.
My thoughts are if a carabiner is marked both Chouinard & Black Diamond, it still counts as a Chouinard carabiner. The only other ugly question is??? if those stamped with a Black Diamond Logo should be considered a varient of those only marked CHOUINARD?
Since I finally finished collecting each color of the Chouinard Anodized Quicksilver & Bentgate Anodized Quicksilver this year, I hate to think that in order to be a Chouinard carabiner "completest" I would need to collect one in each color with & without Black Diamond logo stamps.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Fritz - this is why collecting can be so much fun! I say you at least go for all of the colors of the Chouinard set. I am sure Chouinard was already creating the colored Quicksilvers and Bentgate Quicksilvers before Black Diamond obtained the business. Plus I think you have a long way to go to complete your overall Chouinard carabiner monopoly. I just sent you Marty's Chouinard carabiner master list. Please edit the list and add what you think is missing then we can share the master list with everybody maybe on your first post on the timeline. Wow Chouinard made a lot of different carabiners!
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Dec 15, 2017 - 09:40am PT
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I found some old Chouinard carabiners lately. It loos like a progression from right to left - the right one is marked Alcoa, the centre one is a little flatter than the right one and the left one even flatter.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 15, 2017 - 11:28am PT
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Marlow? Per these photos of what I suspect the opposite sides of your 3 biners look like?
Is the left-most one marked Chouinard-Salewa & stamped Tested on the gate?
Does the center biner have CHOUINARD on the other side?
And does the rightmost have a faint CHOUINARD on it?
Like these three?
This way, they read easier.
Xcon! Nice catalog scan. That Oval design lasted from its introduction in 1978 to the last Chouinard catalog in 1989, although they kept flattening the alumunum rod a little more. Marty thinks there are 6 different variations of it, but I've only collected five.
Here's the 1978 introduction to the Oval.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Dec 15, 2017 - 12:41pm PT
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Fritz
Yes, the right carabiner has a faint CHOUINARD in small letters, the centre one has CHOUINARD with bigger letters and the left one has CHOUINARD/SALEWA (letters as big as the centre one) on the other side - as seen below
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 15, 2017 - 01:43pm PT
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Marlow! I appreciate you are a great gear collector. I do not have your variation of the 1971-1974 Chouinard Salewa biner, on the left, in your photos. The ones in my collection & the first page of this thread, are stamped with T for tested, or tested, or tested West Germany.
Your's is the original early model of the 1971-74 Chouinard Salewa biner that was recalled per this June 1972 ad in the Seattle-based climbing magazine Off Belay. (By the way, since it was never tested for strength, it may well be unsafe to fall on.)
Marlow? If you or anyone else reading this would like to sell or trade me one of those, feel free to contact me at raybrooksrep at gmail.com
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Dec 15, 2017 - 07:54pm PT
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1971 Chouinard...................nice!
In collecting Chouinard carabiners this is what was created. Chouinard 1958 - 1990.
The display info is still being tweaked a little and just recently the Universe provided Fritz and I with another Chouinard carabiner that is yet shown on this display. Great Holiday surprise....psyched!
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Dec 15, 2017 - 08:52pm PT
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Fritz - the 1971 Chouinard carabiner you have one that has a "T" stamp in front of the 2200kp. Here are two of the same carabiners shown on ebay but they are stamped "7" and "0." Are you guessing that the "T" stamp stands for the word Tested, where it looks like it may be a random stamp to show that the item was tested. Hmmmm....
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 15, 2017 - 09:11pm PT
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Marty? Another bolt from the blue for me.
Just when I thought that the chaotic universe of non-catalog Chouinard carabiners had "organized." It devoles back into chaos.
At least, I predicted to you that a Chouinard-Salewa 1971-74 biner would show up, without any marks indicating it had been tested.
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Dec 16, 2017 - 03:03am PT
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I still have plenty of these as well as ovals that sometimes find their way onto my rack though I've moved most of them now to my river gear.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Dec 16, 2017 - 11:18am PT
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This carabiner looks like it has a "F" stamp before 2200kp.
However, does your "T" stamp carabiner also have "Tested on the gate? The carabiners that are marked "O" "7" and "F" have the word "TESTED" on the gate also.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 21, 2017 - 11:25am PT
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Marty: Sorry for a slow reply. That Chouinard-Salewa biner of mine that has a F on it, came from a freind of mine in 1973, Bruce Franks. And of course that F was from his stamp.
However! I must report still another Chouinard carabiner varient.
Per the above photo, they are only stamped on one side, but the side varies.
They match up as being a transitional biner from the 1974-77 Chouinard D marked 4000 LBS & the 1977 transitional D's that are marked 2100KG, but never show up in a Chouinard catalog.
I've sent a spare to Marty at the Karabine Museum, but we both think these are prototypes.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Dec 24, 2017 - 02:39pm PT
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Fritz - Many thanks! This carabiner is wonderful! For now I am listing the mystery Chouinard carabiner as "Chouinard Prototype, made sometime 1974-1976. Its shape and gate matches the 1977 Chouinard carabiner, but the mystery carabiner is stamped with only the Chouinard diamond symbol, and other carabiner side is blank.
Very nice item to receive on Christmas Eve!
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 24, 2017 - 04:51pm PT
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Marty! It's great to swap biners with you. Merry Christmas!
Keying on the nose-height, I date the prototype Chouinard biner, I sent you, firmly to 1977, when Chouinard was re-working his carabiner line.
Per this photo, with the 4000 lb. 1974-77 Chouinard D at the bottom, the never-seen in a catalog 2100 KG D, that looks identical to the 4000 lb. D just above it, & a prototype, similar to the one I sent you, in the middle: they all have higher noses than the two biners above them, but the nose on the prototype looks different from the two bottom carabiners.
Click on the photo to enlarge it.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Dec 27, 2017 - 06:52pm PT
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The ad says Chouinard carabiners 1957 - 1985
lower on the ad it shows and lists a 1958 Alcoa.
This is the confusion of Chouinard's first carabiner. Should it be historically listed as 1957 or 1958? All of the items that Chouinard created were listed under the date the item was first introduced to the public. For some reason the Alcoa carabiner on the Chouinard "firsts list" is listed under when it was first being developed. Throughout the Chouinard catalogs the Chouinard wordage history states 1958 being the historic date. But there are many cases where the 1957 date keeps popping up.
What is also interesting about the ad is that the New Standard carabiner shown is listed as 1985, but the New Standard carabiner shown in the 1985 catalog looks different. The carabiner shown in the ad is pictured in the 1986 Chouinard catalog. I believe this ad was put out in late 1985 introducing the new carabiner for the 1986 season. So once again is this now a 1985 carabiner or to be listed as 1986? Technically I can say late 1985, but then every product Chouinard created would also be listed as late the year previous that the catalog showed the new products. Darn history!
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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On the display board the 1978 Oval shown is actually the 1987 Oval. I can fix that! Anyways here is some more ways to identify the difference between the two Ovals. 1978 Chouinard catalog pictures the Oval having flat gate ends and I notice that the Chouinard stamp on the carabiner body is upside-down. Actually it is the only carabiner Chouinard produced with the stamp upside-down. Not sure if they were randomly stamping the Oval, but the photo shows that the carabiner existed.
The 1978 Chouinard catalog pictures a Oval but the hinge end of the gate is covered up. All of the other carabiner models shown in the 1987 catalog have bullet gate ends so I assume the Oval also has bullet ends. The 1987 Chouinard catalog also shows the mfg stamp is right side up.
Anybody have a 1978 Chouinard Oval they want to donate to the display? (flat gate ends), Fritz may be looking for one also!
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - May 28, 2019 - 08:51am PT
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Since this thread has been so wonderful, with participation from many, I have kept a copy of it as a word.doc & I also have most of the photos as jpegs. I will be glad to share with any legit historian or website that wants to repost the thread.
Ray Brooks aka Fritz
My FB page is here. RAY BROOKS IDAHO STORIES & MISADVENTURES
https://www.facebook.com/groups/425056734950713/
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