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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Nov 19, 2010 - 11:00am PT
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I think all three parties are responsible. If they didn't know what was going on they should have.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 19, 2010 - 11:07am PT
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Well ....
The exact same thing has been going on El Cap for 20-30 years now.
In early 70's there were anchor/s which had no bolts but perfect cracks.
Now there are 5 bolts at the very same anchor/s.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 19, 2010 - 11:11am PT
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Bolts next to perfect cracks are NEVER excusable regardless of any past precedents there or elsewhere.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Nov 19, 2010 - 11:20am PT
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What about rappel anchors, Jim?
I mean, I'm not sure I've seen many folks walk off from the top of those perfect splitter Indian Creek routes...
Etc etc.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 19, 2010 - 11:27am PT
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But El Cap is really "Urban" climbing.
400 to 500 yards from a road close to the city of Yosemite and easy access from major metropolitan centers.
The only thing it has going for it above and beyond is the mysterious forces of NATURE, which no one has any power over ultimately ......
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marv
Mountain climber
Bay Area
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Nov 19, 2010 - 11:29am PT
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Indian Creek is a crag. El Cap is a crag.
Cerro Torre is arguably the singular icon of hard alpine climbing.
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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Nov 19, 2010 - 11:34am PT
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Rolo, any signs of chiseled holds? If they are wimpy enough to bolt next to cracks, they likely don't have any scruples about lowering the rest of the climb to their standard.
Would be nice for Will to speak up on this latest revelation....
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Nov 19, 2010 - 11:41am PT
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Cerro Torre is arguably the singular icon of hard alpine climbing.
Right. But, folks gotta get down, and, most folks summit via the Compressor Route.
Not supporting what the Red Bullshit crew did. But, to make a blanket statement that there should never be a bolt next to a crack...
Good job, Rolo! Let's see some more photo's!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 19, 2010 - 11:47am PT
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You can make a blanket statement that there should never be a bolt next to a perfect crack regardless of the circumstances. If you summit you should have the hardware needed for descent and perfect cracks make for perfect rap anchors.
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213
climber
Where the Froude number often >> 1
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Nov 19, 2010 - 11:48am PT
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Email sent to susanne
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Nov 19, 2010 - 11:55am PT
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You can make a blanket statement that there should never be a bolt next to a perfect crack regardless of the circumstances. If you summit you should have the hardware needed for descent and perfect cracks make for perfect rap anchors.
True. You can make the statement. But, the reality is, on many many trade routes, there are bolted rappel anchors. We use 'em.
Slippery slope I suppose.
Hmmm....
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 19, 2010 - 12:00pm PT
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I am not saying that you shouldn't use existing rap anchors. I am saying that if you establish rap anchors you should never do so by putting a bolt in next to a perfect crack- Never! Never! Never!
I have made over a thousand raps over four decades on virgin alpine terrain on seven continents and have never placed a bolt next to a perfect crack and I'm still here.
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Nov 19, 2010 - 12:13pm PT
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rolo - thank you for your efforts.
The only thing it has going for it above and beyond is the mysterious forces of NATURE, which no one has any power over ultimately ......
uh... .huh .huh.... i like... beg to differ
Jim, how would you go about putting in the rap/end anchors to so many perfect crack pitches in Indian Creek? What are the other options?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 19, 2010 - 12:24pm PT
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Down climb.
Don't cha know anything?
:-)
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Degaine
climber
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Nov 19, 2010 - 12:40pm PT
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donini wrote:
If you summit you should have the hardware needed for descent and perfect cracks make for perfect rap anchors.
I am saying that if you establish rap anchors you should never do so by putting a bolt in next to a perfect crack- Never! Never! Never!
Honest question: what's the difference? In both cases gear is left for others to deal with.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Nov 19, 2010 - 12:49pm PT
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Kind of a topic that's outside the scope of this thread?
I carry a bolt kit sometimes. I'd rather leave a bolted anchor next to a perfectly good crack than a #3 Camalot (edit to add) as a rappel anchor.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 19, 2010 - 12:53pm PT
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Degaine, a nut, cam or even a piton are not only easier to remove than a bolt, they are far easier to place, so placing a bolt makes little sense logistically. Admittedly, rap anchors, no matter what there nature, are not removed. Placing protection blots next to cracks is more egregious because protection is removed by the second whereas bolts cannot be.
Rap bolts placed next to perfect cracks in Patagonia are done by climbers who are using power drills and sieging routes. These same climbers are putting in the needless protection bolts that have proliferated in recent years.
Routes in Patagonia should be done in alpine style. Yes, style does matter!
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 19, 2010 - 12:59pm PT
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Donini -- "I am saying that if you establish rap anchors you should never do so by putting a bolt in next to a perfect crack- Never! Never! Never!"
LOL .... hows that gonna work in a place like Yosemite or other highly populated climbing areas?
Look at the Cookie cliff for example.
Sure, yea we can leave some pins bashed in the crack, that will work.
Once I stuck a rock in the crack and put a sling around it all while Bachar said we're gonna die.
I backed it up for him with cams so he wouldn't die since he wanted to go first.
Ya can't blame him .... :-)
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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Nov 19, 2010 - 01:00pm PT
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one more example, this before "chopping"
What's that look like after the chop?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 19, 2010 - 01:05pm PT
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Werner, on further self examination I realize that I am being hypocritical. I just got back from IC where there are over a thousand bolted rap anchors next to cracks- some placed by me. I guess I am making a distinction between popular cragging areas and the alpine arena. I'm sure to be called to task for that.
As I said in an earlier post the rap bolts in Patagonia are left by teams with power drill who are also placing needless protection bolts next to cracks.
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