Bolts chopped on Cerro Torre

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Messages 161 - 180 of total 182 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Jan 4, 2011 - 02:46am PT
Yeah I did that. :-D
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 4, 2011 - 11:11am PT
No bolts bump.
rolo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 11, 2011 - 01:26am PT
Hope you all "survived" the holidays. Ours were quite sad because of the death of a well respected Brazilian climber high up on Fitz Roy.

Went back up on Cerro Torre yesterday, with Colin Haley and Doerte Pietron. We chopped 12 more of the "Red Bull" bolts, these part of the rap line that Heli Putz bolted. As I mentioned before and as Colin can assert, these were all along one of the many alternate rap routes that one can take from the shoulder down, never far away from existing rap stations. We only chopped 12 because it was very warm, too warm, so we bailed 3/4 of the way up to the shoulder afraid for potential rock fall, wet slides, etc. These bolts were not drilled long, so I could not just hammer them in, but luckily they are all zinc plated so with only 10 hammer blows they broke, very cleanly, flush with the rock (all but two unfortunately).

The Lama-RB crew is showing up in a few days, on the 13th I believe. Hopefully they will have gotten the message and they will behave in these mountains the same way they would behave if they were in their own home mountains, with a little more respect.

regards
rolo

rolo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 11, 2011 - 01:37am PT
Regarding "Kinobi's" question, yes, the configuration of the belay and rappel stations was/is more than questionable. Each station involves two bolts that are less than 10 centimeters from each other, linked by one big fat ring. Putting the bolts so close together is technically wrong and also having them both work at the same time, with no redundancy, is also technically wrong. Last, Heli mixed zinc platted bolts with stainless steel hangers, so this was/is also technically wrong because of galvanic corrosion. As Kinobi points out it is weird that a so called professional would make such mistakes.

regards
rolo
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jan 11, 2011 - 01:47am PT
Thanks for the report, and work!
Hopefully they will have gotten the message and they will behave in these mountains the same way they would behave if they were in their own home mountains, with a little more respect.
How do they behave in their home mountains and cliffs?
Kinobi

climber
Jan 11, 2011 - 02:38am PT
Thanks Rolo for the clarification.
May be they call themselves professionals, but they are not.

A basic knowledge of bolting, would not have led to that kind of equipment, not to that kind of placement.
As far as I see, also the hangers are not EN959, and if they had the intention to remove the gear, they could have used the Multi-Monti system, that beside being stronger than a regular bolt, can be unscrewed leaving just the hole.
http://www.heco.it/it/catalogo/prodotti/heco-multi-monti/

Even in Austria they know that kind of bolts...
Ciao,
E

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 11, 2011 - 07:14am PT
Putz indeed!

Thanks Rolo.
Disaster Master

Social climber
Born in So-Cal, left my soul in far Nor-Cal.
Jan 11, 2011 - 08:47am PT
I have not seen this angle adressed here:

In "Adventure or alpine" areas, especialy when used for filming / etc., bolts show lack of courage, thought, or the inabillity to put style over cost. If they needed to leave rap anchors, perhaps they should have left nuts and cams. Still something left behind and contributing to TAT-agonia. But MUCH easier to remove by anyone who cares to upon discovery. A large production company could easily absorb the cost of fixed camalots instead of fixed rawls.

The need for anti-theft (see below) is not there if they were to be removed (yeah, right) anyway.

There is
the mindset that belays should be bolted, even where not normally used for rappelling.
at many areas. I like a quick clip in belay , too. But if you don't have to rap from it, there is no need for fixed bolts on multi pitch belays. These are convienience bolts.


Yeah, yeah, lots of loaded words there.

I am a power drill wielding sporto who has placed a lot of bolts. But not in places like those talked of here. I could have made a name for myself in the ranges with my bulldog by my side. But for what? Instead I choose my game with some restraint (really.).

I have also logged a lot of time on gear and in the mountains. I am not an alpine hardman, by choice and circumstances. Don't mean I can't offer a valid point.



donini


Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado Nov 19, 2010 - 10:05am PT
Werner, on further self examination I realize that I am being hypocritical. I just got back from IC where there are over a thousand bolted rap anchors next to cracks- some placed by me. I guess I am making a distinction between popular cragging areas and the alpine arena. I'm sure to be called to task for that.

One reason many rap stations are bolted at "Crags" even if near the end of a crack is that gear is expensive to leave. And even if you leave the gear instead of bolting, someone will repete or rap down and take some or all of that gear. Eventully bolts will appear there anyway. The only anti-theft solution at a crag would be to glue the nuts / cams in that are fixed. A silly destructive thought due to replacement issues.



If there were a cure for cancer on the top of Cerro Torre any means to get there would be justified."


If only it were there Jim. I would be paying you to haul my ass there. :)


edit:
A basic knowledge of bolting, would not have led to that kind of equipment, not to that kind of placement.
As far as I see, also the hangers are not EN959, and if they had the intention to remove the gear, they could have used the Multi-Monti system, that beside being stronger than a regular bolt, can be unscrewed leaving just the hole.

THis or other removable bolt options would be a good alterative if there is no protectable feature AND you think the hole is worth it. Climb tech made / still makes removable bolts like slider nuts. Fixe makes a removabe standard type bolt....
Stanley da Costa

Trad climber
Queenstown New Zealand
Feb 11, 2012 - 07:53pm PT
Wow needle rappel in the cold!!!!! That sounds very extreme Mister M !!!!
To many people giving opinion in things they have no clue what they are talking about...
About those kids at Torre, Bad attitude, great style!!!. Thats how a mountain should be climbed. If you cant do it by fair means go climb something else. A think the locals Argentinean climbers are the ones that had been disrespected. They should be made part of the decision to chop those bolts.
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Feb 11, 2012 - 09:49pm PT
Gosh Stanley you are a day late anna dollar short. But I spoze it's tomorrow in NZ so no sprizes 'bout that.

There is a bilillillion post thread about this in case yer wondering.

I'll be sporting and leave it to you to find it :-)
Randisi

Boulder climber
Dalian, Liaoning
Feb 12, 2012 - 05:17am PT
Sporting? Nah, Tami.

Here's the thread, Stanley:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1725375/Cerro-Torre-A-Mountain-Consecrated-The-Resurrection-of-th
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Aug 23, 2012 - 12:11pm PT
Here's a nice slideshow and history of the routes on Cerro Torre, by master storyteller Kelly Cordes:

Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 23, 2012 - 02:12pm PT
Don Paul,

The video gives a brief and well done description of the no bolt ascents of Cerro Torre.

The justification of the chopping is as bad as ever. Two guys, Kennedy and Kruk, carrying out the will of their heros (as they call them), acting as two errand boys aggressively chopping their way down the mountain believing in their holy war against the bolts (my words) after the sacrilege of bolting (sacrilege is their own word).

Just forget the justification of the chopping. Time will let the aggressive acts be forgotten - both the bolting and the chopping.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Aug 23, 2012 - 02:42pm PT
I just assume Cerro Torre is way over my head and the best I could hope to do is to go trekking there someday. The mushroom thing looks impossible. Overhanging snow with the consistency of cotton candy, above an alpine wall notorious for bad weather. Kelly Cordis often talks about going too far and being lucky to be still alive.

The compressor thing sounds pretty gross. I mean, who brings an air compressor on a climbing route? I see your point though, its water under the bridge now, and no one else seems interested to put up bolted routes there and probably no need to make a statement. Although, it may be a better route now without the bolts, one I doubt I will ever see.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Aug 27, 2012 - 09:57pm PT
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Aug 27, 2012 - 11:38pm PT
I would suggest everyone read Alpinist #39 (currrent issue today). There is a very finely graded and reasoned discussion regarding this whole issue, and everyone will be better for reading the whole section there. Especially Rolo Garibotti's astoundingly well-reasoned essay response. Rolo has to be one of the very finest writers in our field today.

Thanks Don Paul for these two video links, also!!
Randisi

Social climber
Dalian, Liaoning
Aug 27, 2012 - 11:40pm PT
What's all this about bolts chopped on Cerro Torre?
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Aug 28, 2012 - 11:19am PT
Randisi, see the Kelly Cordes video a couple of posts up. He tells the story of the first ascent, which made use of an air compressor to drill hundreds of bolts. Then recently these two younger guys blast up it in 13 hours, on the same route but not using the bolts, and have time to chop them on the way down. Not that I wanted to start a debate about bolting and chopping, I just think Cerro Torre is really cool.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 28, 2012 - 11:42am PT
Bring Cerro Torre back to a pristine state....the bolts (at least some) have been chopped, now get some earth moving machinery and get that abomination named El Chalten the hell out of the valley.

edit: Of course we having some cleaning up to do in our own backyard....Yosemite Valley comes to mind.
ducha

Trad climber
rio de janeiro
Nov 4, 2012 - 08:25am PT
I PERSONALLY BELIEVE THAT THE 1959 C. MAESTRI ROUTE WAS NOT TRULY CLIMBED, THAT THE FIRST ASCENT WAS SET BY C. FERRARI AND THE RAGNI GROUP, THE 1970 COMPRESSOR ROUTE HAS VERY POOR STYLE AND HAS BEEN FINISHED BY J. BRIDWELL, K & K CLIMB WAS CLEAN, THAT D. LAMA FREED THE INTIRE WALL: BUT NOTHING THAT JUSTIFIED ANY CHANGE OF THE ORIGINAL CHARACTERISTICS OF THE COMPRESSOR ROUTE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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