Bolts chopped on Cerro Torre

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Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Nov 19, 2010 - 11:55am PT
You can make a blanket statement that there should never be a bolt next to a perfect crack regardless of the circumstances. If you summit you should have the hardware needed for descent and perfect cracks make for perfect rap anchors.


True. You can make the statement. But, the reality is, on many many trade routes, there are bolted rappel anchors. We use 'em.

Slippery slope I suppose.

Hmmm....
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 19, 2010 - 12:00pm PT
I am not saying that you shouldn't use existing rap anchors. I am saying that if you establish rap anchors you should never do so by putting a bolt in next to a perfect crack- Never! Never! Never!

I have made over a thousand raps over four decades on virgin alpine terrain on seven continents and have never placed a bolt next to a perfect crack and I'm still here.
nature

climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
Nov 19, 2010 - 12:13pm PT
rolo - thank you for your efforts.


The only thing it has going for it above and beyond is the mysterious forces of NATURE, which no one has any power over ultimately ......

uh... .huh .huh.... i like... beg to differ



Jim, how would you go about putting in the rap/end anchors to so many perfect crack pitches in Indian Creek? What are the other options?
WBraun

climber
Nov 19, 2010 - 12:24pm PT
Down climb.

Don't cha know anything?

:-)

Degaine

climber
Nov 19, 2010 - 12:40pm PT
donini wrote:

If you summit you should have the hardware needed for descent and perfect cracks make for perfect rap anchors.


I am saying that if you establish rap anchors you should never do so by putting a bolt in next to a perfect crack- Never! Never! Never!


Honest question: what's the difference? In both cases gear is left for others to deal with.
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Nov 19, 2010 - 12:49pm PT
Kind of a topic that's outside the scope of this thread?

I carry a bolt kit sometimes. I'd rather leave a bolted anchor next to a perfectly good crack than a #3 Camalot (edit to add) as a rappel anchor.

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 19, 2010 - 12:53pm PT
Degaine, a nut, cam or even a piton are not only easier to remove than a bolt, they are far easier to place, so placing a bolt makes little sense logistically. Admittedly, rap anchors, no matter what there nature, are not removed. Placing protection blots next to cracks is more egregious because protection is removed by the second whereas bolts cannot be.

Rap bolts placed next to perfect cracks in Patagonia are done by climbers who are using power drills and sieging routes. These same climbers are putting in the needless protection bolts that have proliferated in recent years.
Routes in Patagonia should be done in alpine style. Yes, style does matter!
WBraun

climber
Nov 19, 2010 - 12:59pm PT
Donini -- "I am saying that if you establish rap anchors you should never do so by putting a bolt in next to a perfect crack- Never! Never! Never!"
LOL .... hows that gonna work in a place like Yosemite or other highly populated climbing areas?

Look at the Cookie cliff for example.

Sure, yea we can leave some pins bashed in the crack, that will work.

Once I stuck a rock in the crack and put a sling around it all while Bachar said we're gonna die.

I backed it up for him with cams so he wouldn't die since he wanted to go first.

Ya can't blame him .... :-)
rincon

Trad climber
SoCal
Nov 19, 2010 - 01:00pm PT
one more example, this before "chopping"


What's that look like after the chop?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 19, 2010 - 01:05pm PT
Werner, on further self examination I realize that I am being hypocritical. I just got back from IC where there are over a thousand bolted rap anchors next to cracks- some placed by me. I guess I am making a distinction between popular cragging areas and the alpine arena. I'm sure to be called to task for that.
As I said in an earlier post the rap bolts in Patagonia are left by teams with power drill who are also placing needless protection bolts next to cracks.
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Nov 19, 2010 - 01:07pm PT
Placing protection blots next to cracks is more egregious because protection is removed by the second whereas bolts cannot be removed.

I think Rolo just showed that they can...(!)

Rap bolts placed next to perfect cracks in Patagonia are done by climbers who are using power drills and sieging routes.
Routes in Patagonia should be done in alpine style. Yes, style does matter!


What about trade routes? Like the Compressor Route? Should all the bolts be yanked and folks forced to leave gear on descent?

Part of me wonders if folks who use rappel bolts instead of gear, but, still say routes shouldn't have bolts, are a bit hypocritical (struggling with the phrasing here as I don't want Jim on my ass!).

Jim, my bet is if you added up all the rappelling you've done, say, in the last 5 years...that, a significant number of those rappels were on bolted anchors right next to cracks. Indian Creek, Red Rocks, Castle Rock (geez, I might have some photo's of that, ha ha) etc etc. Sure, you didn't place them, but, you also didn't remove them either or leave gear instead of using them.

Oh, man, I'm in trouble now...

This probably needs its own thread, but, it is somewhat applicable to the topic as folks gotta get down off trade routes somehow, and, really, are bolts not acceptable for descent in alpine terrain even on often attempted and climbed routes?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 19, 2010 - 01:12pm PT
I've worked myself a bit into a corner. Style matters because climbing doesn't. If there were a cure for cancer on the top of Cerro Torre any means to get there would be justified.
Climbing has evolved via knowledge, training, equip. etc. As climbing evolves style should follow.
The Compressor Route is an abomination; certainly not an example to be emulated.
WBraun

climber
Nov 19, 2010 - 01:17pm PT
donini

I know what you're really getting at here and that's what really matters.

I believe most people here know too.

And then we have ...

Hooorrraaahh man

See yea at the top when we rap off that tied tied off twig ....
mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Nov 19, 2010 - 01:44pm PT
There are tons of traditional climbing areas with bolted anchors Devil's Tower being the best example in my area, but each time anchors are added it decreases the commitment level. Super popular climbs there like the first pitches One Way Sunset, El Mat, Carol's Crack ect. would not get done nearly as often if one had to top out to get off with out leaving gear. I think anyone that has trad climbed for very long has used them, but I don't think it is hypocritical to wish that there can still be places left where this is not the case. How would people feel if i wanted to make of film of climbing for profit, advertising or whatever and I installed two bolts at the end of every pitch on something like Pingora where the last time I was there I don't recall one bolt, belay or otherwise, on the entire 1500ft route. I would just like to see some places left as they are as a tribute to those that came first. This route had been done pletty without those bolts being there.
dustonian

climber
RRG
Nov 19, 2010 - 02:10pm PT
Good job, Rolo! Thanks for doing this.
SGropp

Mountain climber
Eastsound, Wa
Nov 19, 2010 - 03:47pm PT
In the greater scheme of things this is the proverbial ''tempest in a teapot'', but in the smaller world of climbing the question of ethics matters a great deal.

This editorial from Alpinist gives some needed historical perspective and sums up pretty well why ethics and human impact do matter.



http://www.alpinist.com/doc/ALP31/editors-note


kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Nov 19, 2010 - 04:13pm PT
Tami, I sent an email to

susanne.degn@at.redbullmediahouse.com

last night, and another a little while ago. haven't got a bounceback on either one. maybe check the address....

(edit) Tami - we need a Lama and Putz cartoon as someone suggested upthread

Peter - i got one of the template responses the other day, so I responded to that... am thinking of making "NO MORE Red Boltsh**t" stickers...
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Nov 19, 2010 - 04:27pm PT
Steve, great link there. I missed those comments by Kennedy. Gotta love him.

Kunlun, Red Bull is issuing out automatic responses to all of our queries (see above); the complaints do good though and without a doubt are souring things for everyone that was involved. When Lama gets his Big Boy pants finally, maybe he will understand what our view might be.

Now on to Tami. Tami, back off, Hon; put down the candy, stand away from the child----this one is mine. Donini clearly has said upthread that the summit mushroom on Cerro Torre (don’t make me post that “Cerro Torre: the fourth Flatiron” image again) cures cancers. All of them. What the hell do you think is going to take place now? I see legions of the sick and of curanderos, headed south like army ants, don’t you? What about plumbing; remember we were talking about that too. These sacred playspaces cannot go without proper plumbing, T !?!? Also I want a plastic Tami action figure that matches your avatar. 1” high is okay; just a paperweight you see.
Shouldah

climber
Nov 19, 2010 - 04:32pm PT
Donini said, "Style matters because climbing doesn't. If there were a cure for cancer on the top of Cerro Torre any means to get there would be justified."

perfectly stated...goes way beyond the lama debacle
e9climbing.blogspot.com

Mountain climber
Alps
Nov 19, 2010 - 04:58pm PT
@ donini


"Style matters because climbing doesn't" One of the best one liners ever!!!!!!


a fun one for Lama

"In the 60's sex was safe and climbing was dangerous. Now it's the other way around."

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