Discussion Topic |
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Wade Icey
Social climber
the EPC
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 11, 2005 - 04:43pm PT
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I know there are a few of you in torporspace who haven't spent 30 years avoiding the wide stuff. I hear that some folks even like it...
so...Let's say one were temporarily insane and aspiring to the wide side, what would the recommended A-to Zone progression be? Any training tips from the initiated? What's the Big Ditch OW practice circut?
curiouser and curiouser,
Wade
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 11, 2005 - 07:27pm PT
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I'll give you a few wimp-friendly suggestions so you can focus on the technique and not the fear and loathing:
Chingando is easily toproped, so is Generator Crack.
You can climb Reeds Direct and Bongs Away left and throw a rope down Bongs Away center. While you are at Reeds you can do Independence Pinnacle Center and throw a rope down "Steppin Out" which looks sick to me.
Apron Jam isn't much of an OW but you could TR that from a 4th class approach as well. If any rocks come down, duck. Do Mr. Natural while you're there, it will be a relief.
Climb Moby Dick Center (with some modest OW on it) and TR Ahab (which uses some OW technique and will develop core strength and pain tolerance too)
Peace and loathing
karl
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 11, 2005 - 07:41pm PT
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The Road to the Twilight Zone
You must go there and visit.....
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Dec 11, 2005 - 09:47pm PT
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Doggy Do
Chingando
Seceret storm
YinYang pitch 2
Siberian Swarm Screw
Remnent left
Generator Crack
 get up it whatever way works best for you, then do it the other side in, and repeat ad-nauseum
Mental Block
Edge of night
Chopper
-you’re there
Season with
Steck Salathe
crack ‘o’ doom
“ “ Despair
Hollow Flake
Ear
Texas flake & Stovelegs
to taste
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426
Sport climber
Roun' Chatt
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Dec 11, 2005 - 11:18pm PT
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Get a job you can practice wide, too.
(Note the "edgin'" boots)
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 11, 2005 - 11:25pm PT
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I haven't tried Twilight Zone yet, and it may be a few years... but it certainly has enough history to be very attractive.
My good friend Eric says that it's offwidth when you can get your knee in, but not your body (at which point it is probably squeeze).
The best advice is to get in as much milage as possible, which means finding a hardass old school partner willing to take you up on these things, often, or find a top rope which gives you the same sort of practice without said partner. Generator Crack is probably the best know toprope, and a worthy classroom. It goes from wide to offwidth to squeeze.. overhangs slightly and is mercifully short. Ideal for laps.
I generally formulate my "old school" climbing progressions around Meyers' "Yellow Guide" recommendations in Appendix II "Difficult Free Climbs Compared" where he writes: "The following is a partial list of the shorter free routes classified by the predominent character of the crux climbing."
I don't know the status of many of these climbs, so if you go off and get yourself killed it ain't my fault, but I will feel bad...
For Offwidth (3 1/2" to 8") he has the following:
5.9
The Cleft
Peter Pan
Apron Jam
5.10a
Banana Dreams
Cookie, Left
This and That
Nothing Special
Chingando
Reed's Pinnacle, Left
Bong's Away
Hourglass, Right
Gollum, Left
Orange Juice Avenue
Secret Storm
Doggie Do
Geek Towers, Center
Geek Towers, Right
Pink Dreams
Worst Error, Right
Crack of Dispair
Crack of Doom
5.10b
Vendetta
The Slack, Left
Smoky Pillar
Book of Job
Pulpit Pooper
Jam Session
5.10c
Twinkie
The Shaft
Wild Turkey
Edge of Night
Fallout
Mental Block
Barefoot Servants
5.10d
Twilight Zone
Steppin' Out
Plumb Line
5.11a
Cream
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Russ Walling
Social climber
NOT FOR LOAN™ CC3
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Dec 12, 2005 - 07:07pm PT
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I would suggest doing a lot of "flys" to get them man boobs in shape. My right tittie was never the same after the 'Zone.... It felt like most of the muscle was flayed off the bone from pulling so hard.
Besides that... plenty of good advice already.
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James
Social climber
My Subconcious
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Dec 12, 2005 - 07:40pm PT
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A steady stemming diet will get you up this thing. It involves a little stacking. The best way to get there is to park at the cookie and hike. A six friend and a #5 camalot are the only big gear you need. You can sling a horn and place a 3 camalot after the crux. It's pretty overrated as far as difficulty. Cream, Mental Block...are way harder.
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Dec 12, 2005 - 07:54pm PT
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Don't forget Bad Ass Mama!
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Russ Walling
Social climber
NOT FOR LOAN™ CC3
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Dec 12, 2005 - 08:50pm PT
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Cream, Mental Block...are way harder.
Have you done those two and the Zone?!?
hmmmm..... My findings are a complete opposite.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Dec 12, 2005 - 09:26pm PT
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What fish said, esp re Mental block
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 12, 2005 - 09:45pm PT
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Man, that is one ominous and forbidding road. Would be interesting to corral all the top comp. tour climbers/teams and throw an offwidth comp in the annual mix and see how they all fair - could be a great equalizer...
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Russ Walling
Social climber
NOT FOR LOAN™ CC3
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Dec 14, 2005 - 01:37pm PT
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Bump for James...... Waiting..........
Side note: wasn't there a list of OW's on here that was in order of grimness or something? Did I post that? Jaybro??
Ferret out the link oh skilled ones....
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Dec 14, 2005 - 02:57pm PT
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I don't know if this was the case for James, but I know that my impression of the ow grimness continuum is very much colored by when in the course of learning the technique I attempt a given route.
When you're on the "Road to..." the 1st one is harder than the 5th one is harder than the 15th one...even if a person already solid with the technique at a given grade would say the exact opposite.
There's that body size thing too.
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lucho
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Dec 14, 2005 - 03:05pm PT
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Russ Walling wrote "Have you done those two and the Zone?!? "
Of course he's done those two and the Zone!, I remember him spraying to me about them. James and the rest of the Monkeys arent one to talk about things that they havent experienced first hand. He also mentioned Orange Juice Avenue.
Lucho
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Wade Icey
Social climber
the EPC
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 14, 2005 - 03:19pm PT
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"a list of OW's on here that was in order of grimness"- I've got to see that. I don't seem to have a 'search the forum' function and my 'search Stuportorpor' doesn't yield a grimness list. Can someone post or email me and tell how to find it?
Thanks for the responses- although Russ' Man-Boob post may have scared me off climbing for good.
ready to thrutch,
Wade
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Russ Walling
Social climber
NOT FOR LOAN™ CC3
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Dec 14, 2005 - 03:20pm PT
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Lucho writes: Of course he's done those two and the Zone!, I remember him spraying to me about them. James and the rest of the Monkeys arent one to talk about things that they havent experienced first hand.
Interesting. I thought the basic tenet of spray and esp.of internet spray was to talk right out of your ass about things that you know nothing about.
It would be refreshing to actually have someone talking about something they know about first hand.
Side note: OJ Ave is a POS.... Hope the "Wings Guys" didn't do the first or I'm gonna get reamered again.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
NOT FOR LOAN™ CC3
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Dec 14, 2005 - 03:34pm PT
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Curious and confused.....
James writes in the other thread link: "Mental block is "easy" for the grade compared to a lot of OW"
Yet above he says: "Cream, Mental Block...are way harder. " (than Twilight Zone)
Yellow Myers:
Cream is 11a
Mental Block is 10c
Tzone is 10d
Clarification please.
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lucho
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Dec 14, 2005 - 06:47pm PT
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OK Russ W. you're right I shouldnt have posted if I myself didnt have first hand knowledge. I just dont like seeing my buddy questioned about sh#t he writes cause I know he wouldnt write anything about that he hasnt done. Its as simple as that. I called him and asked him if he'd done these routes and told me that yes he had been on them. I do know he was goin after it on all offwidths before his injury and that he was getting good at them. The day he did the Zone he had onsighted OJAve and Generator Crack. I havent seen OJAve, so I cant comment on its quality, he did say it was chossy.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
NOT FOR LOAN™ CC3
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Dec 14, 2005 - 06:55pm PT
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Hey Lucho...
I'm not crawling up your tree or anything..... My post was more of a generalization about spray on the internet. It is great to get the real poop when you can get it, and even some of that poop is untrue.
Don't take my post to say that you in particular were talking right out your ass, as that was not what I was trying to say, nor was it directed at you.
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lucho
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Dec 14, 2005 - 10:12pm PT
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Hey as anyone here done the Left Side of the Worst Error, damn that was a good wide crack climb.how bout those three flakes stacked at the beginning of the 5.8 chimney
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James
Social climber
My Subconcious
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Dec 15, 2005 - 02:40am PT
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Russ,
Dude, I totally talk out of my ass. My memory changes more than Paris Hilton's love interests. I think that Mental Block is harder than Twilight Zone...but the Zone isn't that hard. You can stem/chimney your way up if you don't know how to offwidth. There's all those edges on the side. Mental block is easy if you know how to chicken wing. You can motor right up the thing. The first time I got on it I was hanging like a picture. We did do some chossy 5.9 pitch above the ledge that was "adventurous" though. The second time it was a lot easier. Grades are all pretty gray. Twilight Zone is 10d but if you can stem it then the route is more like 10c. Mental Block is 10c but more sustained than the zone at the first 10c offwidth pitch. I would say the route is harder as you are climbing two 10c offwidths as apposed to the one 5.9 pitch and one 10d pitch on the zone. Cream is harder than twilight zone. It's more consistent and in your face for longer.
I've climbed mental block twice, redpointing every pitch but following the second 10c offwidth pitch clean. I fell trying to onsight twilight zone. I have a decent excuse for t-zone. Onsighted that choss pile OJ avenue(Way told me it was good), then onsight led generator crack, and then tried to onsight t-zone. I was worked to say the least. Cream gave me a paper bag and took me to school. Luckily my partner redeemed the trip with an onsight of Energy Crisis.
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Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
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Dec 15, 2005 - 04:45am PT
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Pretty low on the list.
and pretty short as well.
Much easier than, say, Reeds Left, right side in.
Brutus
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Wade Icey
Social climber
the EPC
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 16, 2005 - 02:24pm PT
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AlexC Wrote:
I asked about the Yosemite Hardman Offwidth Training Circuit a while back and got a lot of good info including several lists of climbs to do. I have since made up a web page to collect all that together. It is here:
http://www.monsteroffwidth.com/climbing-misc/yosemiteoffwidths/YosemiteOffwidths.html
Additions and corrections are welcome any time."
Just wanted to say that Alex's page is pretty cool. You all may want to check it out. Nice work Alex.
..and just found this in an old notebook from '80's Ditch days.
"I'm not afraaid of heights,
I'm afraid of widths."
-Steven Wright
16 oz. flys/ high reps- manboobs here i come,
Wade
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LongAgo
Trad climber
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Dec 16, 2005 - 07:41pm PT
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Tom Higgins gives tips from quirky love of off widths:
General
technique: involves separate movement of lower and upper body: if right arm straight in, right leg is in and cocked up, foot and leg torqued; left arm is bent and holding crack edge near head; move by shifting hips out and pumping up off left foot heel-toe at outer edge of crack; hold self in with arms but don't try to drag body up; arms stabilize, legs do push up, then arms move up to hold in for next pump; motion is sideways coma, straighten, comma, straighten; don't pump unless have good pump foot as will waste energy and cause, uh, panic.
rest: if heel toe is good, left edge sharp, and not overhanging, one can rest between pumps (e.g. Crack of Despair); other rest can come from chicken wing arm in crack, if crack and upper arm length match.
flares: where bombay or flare won't allow heel toe pump, try feet in a T position for double leg pump (e.g. short wide 5.9 section on Traveler's Buttress, Lover's Leap).
helpful to have sling for hardware, hanging from outside side, versus hanging stuff on harness or swami which blocks hip area; other posts make same point too.
protection: long ago, used bongs, t-bars and tubes; t-bars were tempting choice since have slim profile compared to tubes; work OK (e.g. Crack of Fear, Colorado) except for flare and bombay places; tubes also OK, but need to fiddle to get just right size and avoid pivoting; all why Bigbros and big Friends are preferred (but didn't have them long ago).
rack: try to get rack recommendation from trusted, experienced friend so don't take too much or little as either is vexing.
reversing: when practicing, try down climbing a little to know it is possible and how to do it; helps reduce fear to know (or fool yourself) you can go back to a "secure" point.
body size: important are distance from shoulder to elbow, knee width and hand size for transitions into hand cracks; in time, will learn favorite and hated widths and be able to "read" cracks for rest points (see "chicken wing" above).
pacing: very important not to rush, take time, rest, think about body position, as other posts suggest; beauty of off-widths is how impossible and possible they are all in a matter of moments; very satisfying to make it; very disconcerting to retreat, a most quirky love.
crack machine: consider building crack machine since hard to practice on real thing; once put up wooden plank job on side of three story house; planks supported by 2 X 6's (probably overkill) on edge to give stiffness; third story porch and railing allowed top to be moved easily along railing so whole thing could be vertical, less or overhanging and any width; climbed between planks (didn't have plywood then) and stucco house wall (reminds me of English "grit").
Notes From Old Climbing Diary
Cream: hard part is early while still fresh; secure higher with good knee fit; tube chocks up to 6 inches were cumbersome, but pretty secure; nice line.
Twilight Zone: t-bars and tubes did not work well; felt mostly 3rd class; quite insecure and strenuous all the way until, strangely, crux where pinches down and is more technical (getting around pro) than scary; key lore is Pratt hung at crux, yelled to T.M. Herbert to run to car to get bong, hauled it up, finished climb; some say big friends make this much easier on the mind, but talk to trusted ones before go as climb has ugly, knifing flakes at bottom.
Left Side of Slack: tubes and bars did not work too well, but climb felt much more safe than TZ with no fall prospect onto piercing flakes; crux creeps up, wearing you out if don't go easy; overall, good, stiff starter off-width given easy access too.
Despair: quite secure off width; sharp edge to grab, good heel toe with right side in, stronger side for most; good bolt protected it in old days; key lore - here Frank Sacherer nearly pulled Tom Gerughty off because young, inexperienced Tom stepped on a bolt to rest; some old mentors were pretty strict about free being free.
Edge of Night: very hard technically due to nasty flare; easy to flail and try to overpower; again, bongs and bars not good; modern big friends probably much better.
Hourglass: right side has pretty short crux and not too hard, but hard to protect with bars and tubes (left side crux is very hard undercling, not off width); remote, peaceful feel to Ribbon Falls area and views to soaring west wall of El Cap.
Hope this helps.
Tom Higgins
LongAgo
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 16, 2005 - 09:19pm PT
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Thanks Tom
Great stuff
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1096
Social climber
hell
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Dec 22, 2005 - 07:29pm PT
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This is how you do TZ.
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pc
climber
Eastside
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Dec 22, 2005 - 07:39pm PT
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And that's fun why?
Related question: Anyone ever need to be rescued in the valley for being, er, jammed?
pc
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 22, 2005 - 07:49pm PT
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It's happened, some guys knee was stuck very badly.
It's fun because it's a challenge to see if you can do it. It's there and it naturally will attract one to try it if you are a climber.
It's a very difficult climbing disipline to master .........
And nice photo, 1096
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Dec 22, 2005 - 08:04pm PT
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Shhez, that guy is wearing a tank. I was talkin' to some friends yesterday and they said it's better to not have a long-sleeve on because the materail balls up and gives you burns.
What's the skinny, long pants and shirts, or shorts and tanks?
FWIT, my buddy did Steppin' Out, said it was sick.
:- k
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poop*ghost
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 22, 2005 - 08:50pm PT
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Bob from El Portal is featured in one of Heinz Zak's books... a killer shot of him hand - fist stacking. Anybody got that shot?
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poser
Trad climber
emporium, pa
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Dec 23, 2005 - 02:03am PT
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Arch rock has some good "easyish" offwidth for training. Midterm is nice and glassy (especially in the rain like my first time) although the offwidth is short and English Breakfast Crack has a fun offwidth on pitch one.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 23, 2005 - 02:15am PT
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p*g looking at it right now... but don't have a scanner! there are a lot of nice OW (and squeeze) shots in that book:
Randy Leavitt on Bad Ass Moma fist stacks and large gear walking
Bob Boorman on Twilight Zone hand stacking, steming right and heel/toe-ing
Mark Chapman on Ahab killer chicken wing, left side in...
Cedar Wright on Cedar Eater crack boulder problem
Peter Croft on Astroman in the Harding Slot
Rob Miller on Quantum Mechanics
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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Dec 23, 2005 - 09:00am PT
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pc, "Related question: Anyone ever need to be rescued in the valley for being, er, jammed?"
While it wasn't in the Valley, you might see if you can get Russ to tell his Pisano Overhang story. It really is a classic.
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Chris W
climber
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Dec 23, 2005 - 06:24pm PT
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Jaybro!!! I wanna climb with you!!! Offwiths ROCK!!! I will bring my Elbow and knee pads. Tell me when this spring in the Valley. Where do i sign up for the offwith Circuit????
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poop*ghost
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 23, 2005 - 08:18pm PT
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I tried t-zone once - but I didn't have the rack for it.
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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One of the best secrets of keeping things mellow on hard offwidths is to put a long sling on your top big cam, so it is effortless to keep pushing it up above you as you climb...
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Uhh, John? What's a 'big cam?'
Buzz
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yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
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bwahaha
That's how we get the ropes up there, Buzz!
I've just pulled out of the driveway, but I am on this Road...
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Hi Roger-
I know what you mean. Most of my most terrifying offwidth episodes were in the valley when big cams were rare--during the obligatory "offwidth mastery" era--prompted, I believe, by Walt and Russ. Maybe Willy Joe had something to do with it too. Werner, of course, had already mastered the art of offwidths by that time, and would lead any previewers up Twilight Zone by request. The cumulation of the Valley Offwidth Tour was an ascent of Bad-Ass Mama (though that was a generally a toprope problem).
But when I got to Zion, I had managed to get a set of homemade big cams, and it made all the difference on the hard ones (if you're doing more than a pitch or two in Zion, you better have the offwidth technique down pat!). Thirty or forty feet between pro--no problem with a big cam above you at all times, with an occasional tube-chock left behind here and there. Whoo-hoo!
The road to Bad-Ass Mama...
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Glad to see this thread back. The road from Bad ass moma to the Owl and beyond, seems to be in the desert, vedauwoo and the black.
As far as the hardest, I think some of the new hard boulder problems in vedauwoo are the thing, or so they tell me, some odub roofs that approach crackhouse (mainpart) length. Even I can point you to some of the weird inversions.
University of Mars, once an ultimate, is now part of the foyer.
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Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
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Bob Harrington on Chrysler Crack.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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I hope that you don't mind too much, Tom. I am posting stuff I copied from your site.
"Notes From Old Diary
Cream: hard part is early while still fresh; secure higher with good knee fit; tube chocks up to 6 inches were cumbersome, but pretty secure; nice line.
Twilight Zone: t-bars and tubes did not work well; felt mostly 3rd class; quite insecure and strenuous all the way until, strangely, crux where pinches down and is more technical (getting around pro) than scary; key lore is Pratt hung at crux, yelled to T.M. Herbert to run to car to get bong, hauled it up, finished climb; some say big friends make this much easier on the mind, but talk to trusted ones before go as climb has ugly, knifing flakes at bottom.
Left Side of Slack: tubes and bars did not work too well, but climb felt much more safe than TZ with no fall prospect onto piercing flakes; crux creeps up, wearing you out if don’t go easy; overall, good, stiff starter off-width given easy access too.
Despair: quite secure off width; sharp edge to grab, good heel toe with right side in, stronger side for most; good bolt protected it in old days; key lore - here Frank Sacherer nearly pulled Tom Gerughty off because young, inexperienced Tom stepped on a bolt to rest; some old mentors were pretty strict about free being free.
Edge of Night: very hard technically due to nasty flare; easy to flail and try to overpower; again, bongs and bars not good; modern big friends probably much better.
Hourglass: right side has pretty short crux and not too hard, but hard to protect with bars and tubes (left side crux is very hard undercling, not off width); remote, peaceful feel to Ribbon Falls area and views to soaring west wall of El Cap.
Hope this helps."
So, John, is Bob packing big cams, or what?
Roger
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WBraun
climber
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Good f'ckin gawd
That looks obscene with those giant cams, like seeing silicon tits.
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ec
climber
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"...when big cams were rare--during the obligatory "offwidth mastery" era..."
"I tried t-zone once - but I didn't have the rack for it."
'Ya mean you didn't have some of these on your rack?
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Jaybro, I remember you were one of the Offwidth Wuli Masters, back in the day. Still cranking the big stuff?
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Of all those off widths mentioned by folks, I found Edge of Night harder than all the rest (though I haven't done Mental Block). Most of the others I did many times but not Edge of Night, which I couldn't get inside at all (too fat) and had to climb left side in. It felt like I was barely staying in the thing and could have popped anytime. Back in the day before cams, the Right Side of Bongs Away (or was it Absolutely Free--can't remember) basically had no pro at all. At least you could get the odd thing in the Zone.
There was another flare down at the Cookie, just left of Catchy, rated 5.9 and used to spit people out like crazy. Can't remember the name though. That thread on Chingando brought back some old groveling memories.
It's good to know that Pratt's Zone is still revered. Chuck was one of the great ones. Wasn't it Sachar that did the 2nd ascent, or was it Robbins?
JL
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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JL: Edge of Night..... Rt side in for me....?
Did it with Cilley back in the day.... he was leading and I could not see him from the belay..... the going is slow...... he yells down
"Russ.... do you want to lead this?"
I yell back, "How's the fall?"
There is a long pause..... then Dick yells in a resigned to his fate sort of voice..... "It's death Russ...."
Classic! He keeps going and does the thing and I follow.... can't remember the pro, if any.
Melissa Edit: JL, the mental block is cake compared to the TZ or Edge of Night
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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The pro on Edge of Night isn't so bad. There's not only a bolt somewhere near the crux, but also a place for a 4" tube chock or a bong of the same size, slotted like a nut (that's what we got when I climbed it with Kevin W.).
Ah, The Cleft . . . Now that one is actually easy if you have the right technique, which is a sort of inverted chicken wing, like mantling off an arm bar you just keep moving up. It's a very weird size, right between a chimney and a true off size.
And how about that squeeze on E. Chimney of Rixons? Not so hard but tight as hell and horrendous on the knees.
Back to Twilight Zone. I'm sort of amazed that more folks don't climb Outer Limits or the Elevator Shaft and just top rope the thing. Also, rememer the last pitch of the Zone. There used to be a weird 5.9 crack followed by an exit move over a big hummock
that was grooved by ropes passing over it.
I really think that if you went down and spent a few days doing laps on Ahab--till you got the size dialed in-- you'd be in good shape for the Zone providing yo have the fittness. Ahab is the same side in as TZ, same kind of movement with your back against the wall and roughly the same size and technique (but shorter crux). As others mentioned, Left Side of the Slack and Reeds also have similar climbing.
JL
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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I am pretty sure that Jim told me that Chuck climbed 'The Cleft' three times before committing its grade to 5.9 for Steve's first guide.
The alternative was 5.8.
Just kidding. Certainly puts it in the unique class 5.9cp.
Roger
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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"Back to Twilight Zone. I'm sort of amazed that more folks don't climb Outer Limits or the Elevator Shaft and just top rope the thing."
I've taken TR's on many if not most of the routes on the list whether I was ready or not just to learn the techniques and get stronger w/ them. I'm chipping away at trying to lead them, although I'm still at the low end of the list. Twilight Zone is the piece de resistance to be saved for when it all appears to be working. I think I'm not alone in wanting to do it right when I do it. But probably a lot of people would just rather do Outer Limits every time too. (And maybe when push comes to shove, so do I!).
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Alexey
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Melissa, I just recently climbed Outer Limits and was thinking to TR Twilight Zone, but did not. Looks tricky to set top rope without big gear. How You did set it up?
Also, in case I' ll be ready to lead it sometimes what is gear recomendations from those who led it
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HalHammer
Trad climber
CA
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Still curious where the Lost Arrow Chimney fits into the list at?
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Alexy,
I've never set up a TR on T. Zone. I was quoting John's suggestion and saying that maybe it doesn't get done so much b/c T. Zone might be a sort of graduation from the ow practice circuit.
But if I was going to TR it, I would do so by handing the rack and the sharp end to my partner. Sorry I'm not more help...
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Colby
Social climber
Ogdenville
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This is a sweet thread. I like the offwidth recommendations. I'll jump on them next year.
Twilight Zone was the first route I ever jumped on in Yosemite when I visited this past summer. I was demoralized - I couldn't even get up it. I think it's stout. I was going to use it as training for the Steck-Salathe - my first long route in the park - which, by the way, has nothing nearly as hard as TZ. It doesn't seem like too many people climb the Steck. It's an excellent route.
Russ, did you say you went right side in on TZ? All of the photos I've seen lead me to believe left is the way to go. I'll have to try right next time.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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I lead Edge 'o' night right side in. The pro was good enough ( '78?)that I wasn't worried about death but was still motivated to not fall that far.
John Midd, I still get on the wides, climbed Bellyfull of bad berries two octobers back. Sunday I climbed entrance exam that is much easier, but still I was glad to have been prepared by years of pursuing ow's. Those guys were STOUT™™™™™™ back in '65 withough harnesses, nuts or what we today know as climbing shoes!
Melissa, yeah, when the time is right is what it's all about. That used to be significant because of the pro, but still it's so much better style, and ultimately more rewarding, to get on something like that when you are physically and mentally ready for it.
All of these things are way harder than the wide in the LA chimney (or,SS). INMHO the seriousness of the LA has little to do with crux wide moves.
Brutus was it even possible to place those things on that pitch?
Why, once upon a time did so many parents name their future climbing sons,"John"?
John Anderson
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I'm sort of amazed that more folks don't climb Outer Limits or the Elevator Shaft and just top rope the thing.
Actually, you can walk around to get on top...
...but I did really like Elevator Shaft 5.8 and recommend it, I don't think it is runout on modern gear.. it is a classic back-foot chimney, and dead vertical... totally wild! and relatively easy...
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CF
climber
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Jan 30, 2007 - 06:21pm PT
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Twilight Zone 1/30/07
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jan 30, 2007 - 06:40pm PT
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If the rest of this year lives up to winter in the valley so far, it will be the stellar-ist.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 1, 2008 - 01:43pm PT
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on topic
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Jun 30, 2008 - 12:45pm PT
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as an aspiring wide crack whore of viking decent, i discovered a new stop on the road to the twilight zone...
i went logging in my underwear.
hand logging at that. no gasoline engine involved. sweat. sun. dust. scratches and abrasions galore. progress despite discomfort.
my wife could only shake her head while preparing me guiness based stew.
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Double D
climber
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Jun 30, 2008 - 02:57pm PT
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Wade...Offwidths? Yeah run like heck the other direction when possible! If all can't be avoided, grin and bear it like a man, and don't forget the long sleeved shirt & pants with climbing-shoe rubber sewn in. (-;
Example...Only when necessary:
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martygarrison
Trad climber
The Great North these days......
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Jun 30, 2008 - 03:33pm PT
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Ed, the fact that over the years have done most of the ow list show me how sick I was back in the day. Steppin out is a really good one btw.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jun 30, 2008 - 05:11pm PT
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ANY OF THE CLASSIC OFF WIDTSH THAT ARE LEFT SIDE IN, BACK AGAINST THE WALL, ARE GOOD PRACTICE FOR TZ (AHAB, LEFT SIDE OF REEDS AND LEFT SIDE OF THE SLACK, ET AL). STEPPIN' OUT IS LEFT SIDE IN BUT YOUR BACK IS NOT AGAINST THE MAIN WALL - IT'S STRAIGHT IN.
JL
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 30, 2008 - 05:22pm PT
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You climb Ahab Left side in? Never tried it that way.
better not be sandbagging me!
;-)
Karl
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goatboy smellz
climber
colorado
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Nov 12, 2008 - 01:46am PT
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Bump for Hartouni.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Mar 19, 2009 - 06:37pm PT
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"Bottom line is if people demand more climbing sh#t, they'll bump it."
bump
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Mar 23, 2009 - 03:16pm PT
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bump for spring psyche.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 26, 2009 - 01:23pm PT
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classic if I do say so myself
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 12, 2010 - 04:54pm PT
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Climbed TZ in '74 with M. Moore.
If you do TZ, you must do all three pitches, otherwise...you haven't done TZ!!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 13, 2010 - 11:01am PT
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from the needles guidebook:
"on the second ascent of yellow brick road, a climber got his knee irretrievably stuck in the offwidth right off the first belay. his partner rapelled to the base, ran to the lookout tower and got a plastic squeeze bottle of salad oil, which was used to lubricate and free the leader's knee. the squeeze bottle is still in the crack at the belay. [copyright 1992--is it still there now?] it is recommended that this section be liebacked. always climb safely and avoid the need for rescues."
great material on this thread. i had no idea offwidths were back in. just read over tom lehrer's masochism tango--will work on a new verse.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 13, 2010 - 11:20am PT
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I did TZ around 72 or 3 in the pre cam era. Don't remember it being too desperate but you did have to go quite a ways before your first gear. Road to the TZ is not too bad but it is a tad steeper than the road to the Nutcracker.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Seriously, Man, I didn't know she was Your sister.
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Jun 13, 2010 - 12:06pm PT
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That's gettin' on the "Wide with Pride" curcuit.
Twilight Zone! It's Real out there, man.
Some great shots of it, too. Awesome.
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okie
Trad climber
San Leandro, Ca
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Jun 13, 2010 - 02:56pm PT
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Well, Jaybro can use words like "good style" and "off-width" together and make it sound believable! Ha! Ha!
My first attempt at this test piece was a failure- but I was pleased to find out that it's safe with modern gear. The more you know...
Recently did the Left side of Reeds. Got that one clean. It's a good one to do because it's mostly 8" so unless you've got one of those custom jobs you can't push a cam with you- you have to lead the thing.
Every one of these things is a different animal, and some beasts are wilder than others...On Orange Juice Avenue I squeezed, I squoozed, I got juiced... to a frothing pulp.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Jul 29, 2010 - 09:20am PT
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...is wide and wandering.
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Darwin
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Oct 19, 2010 - 12:03pm PT
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Norwegian; where is that? !!!
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Oct 19, 2010 - 01:26pm PT
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Darwin, that is in the early part of the Half Dome Direct Route which goes free nowadays. It seems this shot was taken from the actual ground while standing away from the base about 20 feet or so. Remember this was a really hard aid route that Royal and Dick McCracken did, June, 1963. IV 5.9 A5.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 19, 2010 - 05:02pm PT
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When are we going?
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Oct 20, 2010 - 07:09am PT
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When Pratt did Twilight Zone, he was in Cortinas, no chalk,
no big gear, no camelots, no big friends, just his ability,
no one to teach him those techniques, he taught himself, basically,
no training, just a pure, unprotected lead in 1964 that remains
one of the real masterpieces. Within a few years, the great
offwidth climbers, such as Bridwell and Klemens... had moved
into a new age of better shoes, better gear, and great
knowledge and skill. They lived there as long as they could,
and the more time one spends in the Valley in a dedicated way
the better one gets at that stuff... but Pratt was one of a kind,
and it's no really possible to make a fair or adequate comparison
to him. Even the better shoes today make a huge difference...
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Oct 20, 2010 - 09:48am PT
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Pratt was certainly the master and one of my all-time heroes. However, of all of the types of climbing, I would say that offwidth climbing is the least dependent on good shoes.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 20, 2010 - 10:35am PT
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In my opinion, OW climbing ability is the true mark of an all around climber. Wide cracks will never be popular because of the brutal nature of the climbing and the fact that they are not the place to get those high numbers (ratings) today's climbers crave so much.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Oct 20, 2010 - 10:44am PT
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Jim, yeah I agree.
I think your point is partly that we don't have 5.14 offwidths and although there sort of are 5.13 and 5.12 offwidths they are incredibly rare compared to face and smaller cracks rated at those levels. And if they are 5.13 or 5.14 they usually are stem flares like Book of Hate and Grand Illusion. A 5.11c offwidth is one extremely badass lead, you are saying. And I do agree. The cardiovascular requirements of, the duration of, the total body strengths needed in such wide leads are really in a region all their own in comparison to other categories. It is odd isn't it that offwidths tend to top off at a lower rating. However there have always been actual fashions in climbing. I remember back about 30 to 37 years, finger cracks were "all the rage' and very few were even able to pull off hard wide, much less want to for about two decades.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 20, 2010 - 10:53am PT
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Peter, I was in the Valley on a rainy day a couple of weeks ago and I told some young climbers that we used to go to Generator Crack when the weather precluded climbing elsewhere. We ended up with about 8 climbers on top rope and I was the only one (albeit with some difficulty) who got up. I remember soloing the damn thing in the early 70's- must have had it wired. Soloing it the other day was NOT an option for me.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Oct 20, 2010 - 11:24am PT
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Last time I tried to solo Generator Crack (1995), I slipped out from 25 feet up and broke my back.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Oct 20, 2010 - 11:50am PT
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Christ Yonkee!!! UGH.
I hear you Jim. And what you say is true. We would go down there and fire up the thing left side in, right side and lap it. And a great place when the weather was bad. And yes, do it unroped too. And for sure, I would never try it unroped now. I am on a "lose weight and fitness kick" finally and hope to be back on it soon. Got a ton of weight to lose though; too many happy hours in the City for the last 10 years.
But your point is important. A bunch of you people went down there and you were the only one who could get up it.....jesus. Back in the early 70's you were NOTHING WHATSOEVER if you could not flash Generator Crack. Not many unroped it but nearly everyone could at least climb it. So lame. It is not a freak problem either but fully representative of most offwidths above 5.9. Climbers had more core-strength on average back then.
I think I would suggest that people NOT wear flexible shoes on it; you will just make it harder for yourself--- don't fight me on this. Wear the stiffest thing you can as it is heel-and-toe and oblique heal-and-toe and current shoes are just horrible at that kind of problem. Kaukulators with stealth on them or the JB would be the bare minimum for stiffness. More like a Robbins boot, PA, Spider or 5.10 Camp Four type of shoe/boot. The crack is giant, there is no reason to have some sensitive near-slipper type of shoe on in such stuff.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 20, 2010 - 12:03pm PT
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Off-width, wide cracks is one of the most difficult disciplines to master in rock climbing.
It's non-intuitive. Face climbing is intuitive.
Off-width, wide cracks require coordinating the whole body working efficiently without wasting energy.
You can't cheat. Cheaters layback.
But rarely do they lead a long hard pitch in the cheater position and get away with it.
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Impaler
Gym climber
Vancouver
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Feb 14, 2011 - 06:53pm PT
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One of my favorite threads here!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 14, 2011 - 07:00pm PT
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Think I missed this thread. The Cleft was certainly an eye opener for a 5.9- which it isn't. I remember psyching up for Twilight Zone in about 73. In those days you went 30 feet or so to the first nut placement- you didn't need to do anything else to feel like you had a full day.
edit: Guess I didn't miss the tread considering my post about Generator Crack- senior moment.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Feb 14, 2011 - 07:01pm PT
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It is odd isn't it that offwidths tend to top off at a lower rating. -- Peter Haan
Well, if you start out with a climb like Ahab getting a .10b rating (and some even claim it's easier), then 5.12 OW has to be a dark and disastrous beast like a monster out of Clash of the Titans.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 14, 2011 - 07:06pm PT
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Offwidths need a rating system based on caloric expenditure, breaths taken and surface area of the epidermis lost.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Feb 14, 2011 - 08:10pm PT
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Jimbo Donini, I don’t think you even breathe, expend calories nor get scraped any more, do you? I like to picture you much like Mother Teresa or other demigods, not really of this earth--- more like a principle than a being, you see. What could you be talking about? I bet you move like water on rock by now; I haven’t seen your shtick for 40 years though.
Werner is right just above too Pilgrims; that is a point that is not usually made--- that offwidth is the most difficult of climbing disciplines, counter-intuitive. And Werner is/was an excellent offwidther too.
One of its virtues is that you get to get inside stuff instead of being bare-assed out in the etherzone plus you often can get rests of sorts. Bigger climbers are also not at a distinct disadvantage in offwidths---- so any of you climbers above 185 pounds, shoes beyond size 11, giant paws and powerful-assed legs, this is your chance.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Feb 14, 2011 - 08:28pm PT
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Bigger climbers are also not at a distinct disadvantage in offwidths...
..for a change. The bigger the crack the more the big can compete.
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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Feb 14, 2011 - 09:40pm PT
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So who is for-real psyched and serious about making the OW pil-GRIM-age this spring and summer? I should be directing this to the eastbay wide group, but the likely candidates will read this thread...
I'm essentially a wide n00b when it comes to serious stuff, but I have potential. Plus my skin heals pretty fast.
Adding a few non-Yosemite cracks to the wide circuit:
Fat Merchant's Crack 5.10aX ?
Self-Abuse 5.10b:
And Steck-Salathe... maybe no single section is a ridiculous technical crux, but you can't deny it's great endurance training. There is a surprising amount of wide stuff on the route that nobody talks about (like most of the pitches!) and it all adds up.
That said, the pitch before the narrows was pretty serious for me. But I was too chicken to just stem up wide outside, and it was wet/slimy and wider than fist back in deep where I craved to be.
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Impaler
Gym climber
Vancouver
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Feb 15, 2011 - 03:05am PT
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Some time around February 2007 I was cragging in the valley with a friend. He'd never been on the Generator crack at the time and we decided to go down and do a few TR laps. He had the first go and struggled on the beginning section. I've done it on TR before on three separate occasions and I've had this thread going through my head the whole time (and possibly for the preceding several months). Having never fallen on GC, I knew I didn't need a rope for it and as I watched my friend struggle, I remembered the moves. I thought that it would be a good idea to do it unroped as part of my training. The harness wouldn't get in the way and once I'm past the jug where most people switch sides, I'd be in the squeeze section and totally safe.
Well, it was the end of the day in February, twilight was setting in and it was starting to snow lightly. After some thinking I started up and quickly got past the crux. Several repetitive moves later I was making slow progress through the OW section. Everything was going smoothly, but what I didn't account for was my fear. I've never soloed anything harder than 5.8 or 5.9 at the time and I was getting quite scared as I was about third or half way up. I was overgripping like a mad man, squeezing all the blood out of my already cold fingers until I realized that I'm just too gripped to keep going up and can't even feel my fingertips. I was still feeling solid just below the jug and wasn't slipping out, just paralyzed with fear. It was pretty lucky that I didn't think of pulling the TR down before starting to climb and asked my friend to swing the rope towards me.
I had a hard time straightening my arms during the drive back home and my biceps were hurting for several days after that just from overgripping. In retrospect, I should have chosen a better time to do this step of my training on the road to TZ, when I wouldn't be rushed to climb before it gets dark or cold. I'm still on that road now...
Vlad
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Mar 22, 2011 - 12:02am PT
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a friend and i recently did all of the chimney's at sugarloaf in one day.
it was something like 28 pitches of wide.
we started early and ended in the dark.
i had a gobbie on my knee for a month after that day.
the wide road to twilights is endearing.
edit... 28 pitches?? let's see if my memory serves any use at all...
fat merchant -> TM's -> Podium -> West Chimney -> Hardings -> East Chimney -> Self Abuse -> The fly.
well, 20 pitches, geez
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Mar 22, 2011 - 12:12am PT
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Thanks Vlad. Just don't forget, soloing unroped should be extremely fun, not scary. Do stuff when you really really have it in the bag from all accounts. Bachar did extreme stuff unroped but as far as he was concerned, he absolutely knew he had the situation covered. So for me and everyone else I know that goes unroped on the upper end. Your solo should actually seem kind of regular to you, never a crazy-ass fling into the the relative unknown.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Just run out the third pitch of Super Chicken, and yer ready!!
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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I've only done Generator once... I need to start making it a ritual on the way out of the valley whenever I'm not already trashed.
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yosemite 5.9
climber
santa cruz
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Up in Tuolumne, you might consider The Yawn. It is fairly easy for an offwith if I recall correctly. Difficult to protect at first. But very interesting with a nice hand jam at the top. It's been years so ask someone else's opinion first.
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PellucidWombat
Mountain climber
Berkeley, CA
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Dec 21, 2011 - 06:12pm PT
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What about changing directions mid-pitch on Generator?
I find the middle easiest right-side in, and just before I tunnel through behind the flake I switch to left-side in (seems easier for the tunneling & squeeze). It's not too bad to do once you get the feeling for how to cross arm-bars and rearrange your hips & feet.
I've TRed Ahab once, right-side in. Pretty tricky but I can see how it can be easy once you get foot t-stacking down. I'm at a loss to figure out how I'd ratchet up facing right-side in though. That back wall is slick!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Dec 21, 2011 - 06:38pm PT
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I saw a shot in the new Rock and Ice of someone leading the Zone in slippers. That's seems terribly dumb to me.
Just saying . . . .
JL
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scuffy b
climber
heading slowly NNW
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Dec 21, 2011 - 07:43pm PT
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only if it's a problem. Some guys just don't seem to ever scrape their
ankles.
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Dec 21, 2011 - 07:46pm PT
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the frightening thing about the road to Twilight Zone is that it ends at the base of the Twilight Zone.
scuffy - you been up it?
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scuffy b
climber
heading slowly NNW
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Dec 21, 2011 - 07:51pm PT
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No, actually, I'm intimidated. Steppin Out and Cream didn't have that
effect on me, and in fact I have my sights on some harder things, but
somehow it just keeps getting put off.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 22, 2011 - 11:55am PT
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skating on stilts
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dogtown
Trad climber
Cheyenne, Wyoming and Marshall Islands atoll.
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Dec 23, 2011 - 12:02pm PT
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TZ was a on the to do list as a goal when I was living out that way just never got around to giving it a go. Tubes and hexes were the pro of the day needless to say a bit tricky. With today’s pro.(cams and big Bros) and a steady diet of offwiths do to a few seasons of skin loss at Veedauwoo I think I may have a chance.
Dawg.
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Alexey
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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bump. So when this road is done what climbers do with big gear?
sell off on e-bay?
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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There must be some monster OWs in the high sierra with your name on it Alexey! People knowledgeable about such things should post inspiring pictures. But maybe that should be a new thread "Beyond The Twilight Zone"
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fosburg
climber
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Classic shot of Nic Taylor employing bad stacking technique; palms should face the walls!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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No Alexey, they donate all unwanted wide gear to Jay Anderson, general delivery Moab Utah 84532 I have projects that demand every bit of it.
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Jim Pettigrew
Social climber
Crowley Lake, CA
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This off width stuff makes my hands sweat! Too wide to fist jam to narrow to knee lock! Lever, reach, pull! Breathe, breathe, breathe! Again! lever, reach, pull:)
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Twilight Zone! Sweat is right. I'd be bleedin', too, most likely.
Yeah, that's some climbing, huh?
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2013 - 12:53pm PT
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crøtch
climber
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Jul 16, 2013 - 08:07pm PT
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bump
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Rollover
climber
Gross Vegas
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Sep 21, 2015 - 05:12pm PT
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50th anniversary bump!
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
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May 31, 2019 - 02:07pm PT
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grovelicious bumping that piece
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ron gomez
Trad climber
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May 31, 2019 - 02:13pm PT
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They were over obsessing on Supertopo, got behind on “work”
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