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dave goodwin
climber
carson city, nv
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 5, 2010 - 12:39pm PT
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What are the guidelines for the NPS determining who should pay for rescue services?
My understanding is that if you are properly prepared and need help then fees should not apply. I know that being properly prepared is a vague satement, but how do they determine who is liable for fees and who gets those fees waved?
This is a subject I wish that I was not concerned about, but unfortunately I had to be airlifted off the summit of El Cap this summer. I made it to the top on my own power but it was apparent that due to my injuries I was not making it down on my own or with the help of my partners. I was airlifted the following morning. We were "properly prepared" as far as I know the definition, but I was recently sent a bill from YOSAR for over $700 for the flight from El Cap to Crane Flats. This is cheap to the $23,000 I was billed for care flight to get me from Crane Flat to Doctor's Hospital in Modesto, and the $73,000 that the hospital charged me.
Don't take me wrong I am not bitching about these services. YOSAR was absolutely awesome in taking care of me. They were very well trained and definetly knew what they were doing. My safety and comfort was their main priorty.
I have health insurance which will cover %80 of these costs and I wll take care of the rest myself.
I am just curious why I was billed and maybe others have not?
My intentions are not to bitch about Yosar or any other rescue organizations. I have nothing to complain about. I got hurt because of my errors and they came and rescued my ass. I am very thankful for what they did and don't mind the fees, just wondering how my situation differed from others.
take care
dave
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Very interesting question... I appreciate how you are taking responsibility for the situation. That is rare. can't wait to hear other stories on this. So... what did you do that allowed you to top out but still rack up $100K in medical care?
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dave goodwin
climber
carson city, nv
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 5, 2010 - 12:53pm PT
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I took a very long fall making the last move on to the summit. Under pure adrenalin I jugged a 100 feet or more back to the summit. After reaching the summit my body shut down and I was unable to do anything. Luckily my patrners Gomz and Eric helped me through the night. I owe these guys big time!!!
As far as the $100,000 in medical bills, I believe that the hospital inflated all these costs because I have insurance. I have no proof of these inflated costs, but my insurance company has been trying to negotiate with the hospital a lower fee. I had no major injuries but was severely beat up from the fall. It happened June 2nd and I am still helaing up, both mentally and physically.
take care
dave
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tyrone
Trad climber
california
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I believe if you're a member of the American Alpine Club they provide rescue insurance, but I'm not sure what that covers (or to what extent).
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Dave,
I think you are right to ask the question about comparative costs and the criteria for billing.
In terms of YOSAR, have you made an inquiry with them directly? Of course being clear that you are not impugning their integrity as an org, but curious as to what the criteria is. Since you aren't disputing Yosar's cost, send your payment at the same time. They'll probably tell you.
If I was a guessing, and I'm definitely an idiot in these matters, I'm guessing they charged pro rata somehow. I.e. you got yourself to the top in some feat of human endurance and they are just charging you the fuel for the whirly bird given that you had been prepared. A nominal recovery fee based on ability to pay seems reasonable. It prevents abuse of the system. Speed climbers probably being a big concern, if I were to guess.
As for the flight to the hospital. That's some bullshit jacked up biz. But they do it anyways, because not everyone pays. More a thing of the medical industry than specific to your situation.
Keep us updated. We can all glean some info here.
thx,
Munge
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WBraun
climber
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Dave
Your 551 flight to Crane Flat was dirt cheap.
The rest of the cost in my own opinion is unreal .....
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dave goodwin
climber
carson city, nv
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 5, 2010 - 01:33pm PT
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Werner-
I totally agree. I am not complaining about this fee. For what YOSAR did it was extremely cheap and I know that the cost of my rescue do to my errors is more than the $700 they billed me. I am very grateful for their services.
I was just shocked to recieve a bill, and was wondering what guidelines they use?
take care
dave
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Gotta agree with Werner on that... You can't turn those ships on for less than a Starbucks franchise!
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WBraun
climber
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The $700 is just standard charge for transport, medical and rescue personal charges.
NPS recoups some of the cost of the rescue.
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rhyang
climber
SJC
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Only $700 ?? Wow, that is less than the annual deductible on my medical insurance. When I broke my neck in a car crash on 108, the helicopter airlift to Modesto was billed at over $12,000 for ~25 air miles (fortunately I also had medical coverage on my auto insurance).
Hope your healing is rapid and complete !
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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The $700 is indicative of why our government is going broke, there's no way
that is accurate. On the other hand the $23,000 flight is indicative of how
out-of-control the medical world is. I haven't priced a helo flight for
many years but I could call my friend who does in order to place air conditioning
units on tall buildings and I am sure he would die laughing. I realize that
a medi-flight chopper costs a bit more to buy and set up but after that its
per hour costs shouldn't be that much more than any other commercial bird, like maybe $5K/hour?
As for the hospital bill let's just say that when they saw you had insurance
you were given the 'works' as in $20/bandaid, etc. Of course, prolly 25% of
the hospital's bill went to their liability insurance.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Werner, I think what he is asking is.. "Does everyone who needs a rescue get charged this fee?" and if not.. then how is it determined who gets charged and who doesn't?
Do hikers get charged this fee. How about people who crash their cars in the river? Etc..
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BurnRockBurn
climber
South of Black Rock City (CC,NV)
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Dave
I know we already talked in person about it but Ill post up for this link.
Medical costs are inflated as hell for the person that HAS insurance to cover those with out. Insurance companies only pay out approx 50% of what is billed by the hospital. They contract at those rates. So a person who has a 10,000 dollar ER bill and has insurance,the hospital gets paid 5,000. The bill is generally inflated to get more than 50%.
If you dont have insurance you still get the 10,000 bill . Most hospitals will give you a 30-50% discount if you pay within 30 days (like we have that kind of cash lying around) cause that is what they would get paid if you had insurance anyway.
Then to top it off, if someone has Medicaid, it only pays around 20% (if that) of a total bill so the cost that a hospital charges goes up to cover the low income. (A large portion of ER patients are medicaid because Doctors wont see them........thus a 50$ doctor visit ends up costing several thousand dollars to an ER and the average taxpayer.
The billing of healthcare is soooo f*#ked due to insurance companies deciding what they will and wont pay for..
So Dave......interested in garage climbing tonight to blow off some steam?
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WBraun
climber
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John -- "Does everyone who needs a rescue get charged this fee?"
If there's medical involved, yes.
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dave goodwin
climber
carson city, nv
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 5, 2010 - 02:24pm PT
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thanks for clarifying my question John. I was curious if everyone gets cahrged this. Also thanks for your reply Werner.
I mentioned to my wife that I posted this topic and she said that the bill was more like $7,000. She is not home right now, but she will check the bill when she gets home. She would know better than me, since she handles all our bills. I could have misunderstood what the total was.
thanks for the well wishes from everyone pertaining to my health and the closure of the store.
hey BRB I am up in Alaska visiting family right now but I get home tomorrow. Will start the garage sessions soon, as it is getting dark earlier and temperatures are cooling off. Thursdays are going to work best for me, but not for another week or two.
take care
dave
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BurnRockBurn
climber
South of Black Rock City (CC,NV)
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Cool dave. Enjoy Alaska.....freaking raining the last three days here.
Shawn
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flakyfoont
Trad climber
carsoncity nv
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Dave, thanks for posting this up. Hope things turn around soon when you get back here in CC. I dont trust mail order or internet gear sites too often and
the absence of the shop here is a loss. Glad you are mending.
See you around the crags. Bill and Kathi T.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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In my little corner of the world, the sheriff has the discretion to charge for rescue services, but we never have charged.
Helicopter rides are different. They are considered part of medical transport (air portion and may be followed by life flight or ground ambulance) and are billed to the insurance company if you are transported to the hospital. If there is no transport to a medical facility, nothing is charged, and the SAR team absorbs the costs.
Since we never call for helo evac unless it is a very serious incident, we aren't stuck for a helo bill very often. We do employ helicopters or plane searches on rare occasion for search purposes. These are never charged to recuees.
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