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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Most don't want colorful chutes in front of the famous cliffs. Impacting thousands of people's experience so a handfull of people can do their sport isn't a trade off the park service is willing to make.
I said it before, I wonder if this is true. Would thousands of people really be upset at a few base jumpers? I kind of doubt it. Most folks I know get a kick out of seeing the hang gliders.
If it was going on all the time, then maybe I could see people complaining.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Yeah, I heard something similar, a CR making the argument that I was a visual obstruction on a wall.
I said, "What about the 300 pound tourists with the loud hawaiian shirts?"
He shut up.
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jstan
climber
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Base you're right, JStan is clueless, he's in love with the smell of his farts. . .
End Quote
I have been here since 2006. It is unbelievable really, but I think this is the first personal attack. And like most such, it is in Iambic pentameter, shows great maturity, and displays ineluctable clarity of thought.
The point of my post on risk and knives is that what should be a real concern, poorly formulated policies and risk analysis in the use of tasers, is being muddied by contributors who are not taking the effort to gather their thoughts. These postings do not help anyone and frankly they can easily make things worse for climbers generally, should the group of climbers become linked to that of base jumpers in everyone's minds. We will pay for it. Dearly and needlessly.
Just the fact these statements are being made, in the obvious absence of information, brings us into disrepute. Thereby turning us into bystanders instead of participants in an important policy discussion.
Jan Davis was the last jumper to die on El Cap so jumping is safe and ought to be generally permitted. Tasers also kill people but they are not safe and so should not be permitted. Since jumping provides a real public benefit and law enforcement does not we should go with the jumping, all other things being equal.
Good arguments can be made. Shall we not at least try?
PS:
Since they are next door neighbors, a friend of mine has talked to Jan's husband. You really do not want to go where that tragedy has taken these people.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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If you run from the cops your gunna get tazerd. Period.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jstan, take it as a compliment. He is attacking you personally only because he can't refute your arguments any other way.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Another thought--if I were Ammon, I'd want some of my more vocal "friends" on this site to STFU. They're hurting more than helping.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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I can't see condoning tasing as an acceptable means for dealing with fleeing persons in general.
There are all kinds of reasons a person might run that don't justify them being harmed, and tasers DO harm.
What if he is deaf and hasn't heard an order?
What if he has an otherwise harmless mental illness?
What if he has heard that the police regularly abuse people?
Running does not equal an automatic reason for tasing any more than Chris Rock being funny doesn't mean that he is legally correct.
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jstan
climber
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For those who don't know what the "heat ray" is, it is a device that allows one to place a person or groups of people in a microwave oven. The DOD has had contractors looking at this as a means for crowd control.
Back in the 30's there was a medical device that used microwaves to increase circulation. Diathermy it was called. It went out of use probably because medical people decided they did not know when to increase circulation and when not to.
Nowdays we also know enough not to dry our pets in a microwave after bathing them.
PS
The microwaves for ovens are tuned to the energy of a rotational mode possessed by the water molecule. At the very least if you intend to dry your pet this way, have them first drink a whole lot of coffee.
Edit:
A thought.
We have a body of data on the use of tranquilizer darts with large animals.
Any comments?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Ron, I agree that tasers are overused and misused. The Dziekanski case ineluctably (today's new word - thanks, jstan!) showed that, if there was any doubt. And there's not much doubt that the police can be aggressive and authoritarian. They have a difficult job. But as you know well, in your country, a suspect, indeed any person, may be armed with a gun, or perhaps a knife. Assuming that the circumstances justify forcibly restraining a suspect, using a taser to do so seems better than using a gun, and may also prevent the suspect from using a gun. Lesser of evils.
Whether the circumstances of the arrest and tasering here were a violation of civil rights, or excessive force, remains to be seen. Little data. As you have also said, having the rights, and enforcing them, are two quite different things, and the playing field is often tilted in favour of the law. There is that authoritarian streak in the US psyche, in contradistinction to the frontier, anarchic streak.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Before deploying such microwave devices it might be good to look at the big picture and how the general populace will perceive LEOs in general.
You could do more harm than good.
Anybody seen tanks deployed against US civilians since Waco?
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Reggaemylitis
Sport climber
Sacramento, CA
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Radical, you may want to follow your own advice, and go back and study civil disobedience. I'm pretty sure Ghandi didn't run from beatings or arrest. Just sayin....
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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You said it yourself stinkeye, CATCH HIM.
I'm not against enforcing the law, just doing so in an excessively abusive manner.
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jstan
climber
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Ron:
In 1970 at the Viet Nam war protest in DC I noticed every courtyard in the mall area was filled with armored vehicles having mounted machine guns. Every square foot in the mall had a person standing on it so it was a very scary situation. But it had to be done.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Tasers should be used when a person is holding a weapon other than firearm (or bow etc.), or poses a serious threat.
If some 250 lb gorilla was advancing on Fatty fists clenched ranting about tearing his head off and spitting down his neck then I would say taking him down with a taser would not only be justified but pretty sporty as well.
But used as punishment for running?
Pitiful. Lame.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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We train and PAY cops to get in there and mix it up, to actually subdue criminals.
If they run the cops should run 'em down.
The cops are supposed to risk injury rather than use what at times has amounted to deadly force.
"Gee, sorry I zapped and killed your autistic brother, but I didn't want to bruise my shin trying to catch him."
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Thank you, Ron. A much needed voice of reason in this cesspool of authoritarianism.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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in·e·luc·ta·ble
adj.
Not to be avoided or escaped; inevitable: "Those war plans rested on a belief in the ineluctable superiority of the offense over the defense" (Jack Beatty).
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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If it was going on all the time, then maybe I could see people complaining.
That's my point about why it won't be legal. That's what the NPS thinks and they make the rules. I think very few climbers would be opposed.
I think Tasers are a great option for subduing someone who A. commited a serious crime (BASE is NOT), or B. is armed, or C. is fighting.
They have a risk of death should only be used when warranted. We don't know the full story about what happened, but I doubt this case fulfilled A, B, or C above.
Part of why BASE jumpers run is the punishment is too severe for the crime. $10K loss. I'd run too. For a few hundred dollar ticket (what the punishment probably should be) you'd just give up.
Like I said lame ass cop who wan't fit or smart enough to bust him another way, unless of course he threw a punch or something, which I doubt happened.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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A deal struck perhaps?
No fair.
I already know more than I want to about Paris Casloppis getting busted in Vegas.
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