Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 850 of total 850 in this topic |
couchmaster
climber
pdx
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 27, 2010 - 12:48am PT
|
I just saw this. I've already ranted extensively about how we need to defund and de-militarize these "public servants" who all too frequently end up thinking they are our overlords. Take our damn money back and keep it away from them. Bastards. It's starting to become US against THEM. Which is unfortunate for our country.
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=151917391502041&v=info
Ammon McNeeley or anyone being tazered for this is total bullshit and so wrong. To start with, jumping off cliffs shouldn't be illegal, and it's so f*#ked up and opposed to what at the very core of what our country stands for that the police can steal your stuff (the new forfeiture laws) if they do catch you. For an average dirtbag, to steal 80 percent of their net worth for something which is a personal choice and not illegal anywhere else in the world, even in dictatorships, is way over the top punishment.
Of course, rich dudes can jump on a plane and fly over to Europe anywhere and legally jump off the Eiger or whatever they wish, so it's the true dirtbags and the fiscally challenged who get stuck in the eye by this law. I suppose it would be similar to the police stealing a drivers car for not using their turn signal. For a person who is deeply invested in their auto, like a warehouseman who had purchased a Mercedes or a Lexus, it is crazy restrictive and regressive. For a rich dude, he'd shrug if off and go buy another Lexus, but for a poor person fully leveraged it would be painfully regressive. I'm all for making people obey officers, I do and think we all should: but if the authorities are going to steal your stuff over any minor thing, plan on most Lexus's driving off when it gets pulled over for simply not using a turn signal.
One of the things wrong with this country is that we pass sh#t loads of stupid bullshit laws and then make criminals of good people over little things, and the jails are stuffed full. The taxpayers get the shaft and we all lose bits of freedom. Who wins here? We do this more than any other country in the world and it's so damn costly and counterproductive.
In addition to his climbing skill, Ammon is widely known for his honesty, kindness, helpfulness and generosity. Good people like Ammon shouldn't be sh#t on by the system like this. For myself, I wish him well. What we as citizens need to do is stop funding these paramilitary wantabe police as#@&%es who are driving a wedge between good people and these who would be our overlords. Enough is enough and we all had enough of this bullshit a long time ago.
|
|
MeatBomb
Gym climber
Boise, I dee Hoe
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 12:50am PT
|
Well, it is ILLEGAL after all. Did he yell "don't TAZE me Bro"?
|
|
EP
Trad climber
Way Out There
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 12:53am PT
|
A tasing for an illegal base jump is totally out of line.
|
|
MeatBomb
Gym climber
Boise, I dee Hoe
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 12:54am PT
|
The cops there have killed people for less. He got lucky.
|
|
Cpt0bvi0u5
Trad climber
Merced CA
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 12:58am PT
|
And the park service does it again...
|
|
Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 01:13am PT
|
I would like to hear why Ammon was tazed.
Sad day for the monkeys.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 01:15am PT
|
I pulled up the facebook. Not much information there. Is this all you have?
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 01:20am PT
|
Committing a crime DOES NOT = Taser
Resisting arrest and belligerent behavior = NON LETHAL force = Taser
Taser is in the MIDDLE
Use of Force Paradigm
* Officer presence
* Verbal commands
* Soft hands (control tactics/wrist locks/OC spray)
* Hard hands (strike points/impact weapons)
* Lethal force (firearm/strike points to vital areas)
Who got to Taser him?
Lober, Gabriel, Hofflach, Bellino
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 01:27am PT
|
Chris Mac got busted in Grand Canyon and Ammon is busted in Yosemite.
The sentence and the fine are going to hurt.
Expect maximum sentencing for this. It is a misdemeanor but you still can get $5000 fine and a year in jail.
How long will he be banded from National Parks? YEARS
What kind of record does Ammon have?
Resisting arrest or violent behavior toward cops in called aggravating circumstances.
Ups the price to get out of jail.
|
|
Argon
climber
North Bay, CA
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 01:35am PT
|
At least these Yosemite LEO's knew which holster had the taser - he's lucky it wasn't the BART police. Or maybe the chickenshtt LEO meant to shoot him and pulled the taser by mistake.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 01:50am PT
|
36 CFR 2.17 (a)(3)
The following are prohibited:
Delivering or retrieving a person or object by parachute,
helicopter, or other airborne means, except in emergencies involving
public safety or serious property loss, or pursuant to the terms and
conditions of a permit.
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 01:52am PT
|
"Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time..."
I'm sure Ammon is aware.
The fine/time could hurt, though.
On the facebook discussion page, Kait said he was released the next day.
But I imagine he wants to "lay low" on this one and hope for a lenient sentence.
|
|
yosguns
climber
Durham, NC
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 02:28am PT
|
Sort of reminds me of a much more serious version of a story from Grateful Dead lore I heard that was inspiration for a song with the lyric "smilin' on a cloudy day." There's a suggestion at the end of the interview below (I edited a bit for readability) that it takes more these days than disrespecting an officer to merit getting roughed up. For what it's worth, some of you may appreciate:
Lesh: Water balloon episode?
MM: Uh-oh!
DG: Oh, I wanna hear this!
Weir: I got him good. . . . I was on the third floor of . . . our place in the Haight-Ashbury. . . . [T]here was this cop who was illegally searching a car belonging to a friend of ours . . . down on the street - the cops used to harass us . . . every chance they got. They didn't care for the hippies back then. . . . [S]o I had a water balloon, and what was I gonna do with this water balloon, come on. And, uh...
Lesh: Just happened to have a water balloon, in his hand...
MM: See, I wasn't gonna bring that up...
Lesh: ...ladies and gentlemen.
Weir: And so I got him right square on the head, and uh...
Lesh: A prettier shot you never saw.
Weir: ...and . . . he couldn't tell where it was comin' from, but then I had to go . . . and walk across the street and just grin at him...
Lesh, MM, DG:
Weir:...and sorta rub it in a little bit.
DG: Smilin' on a cloudy day. I understand now.
Lesh, DG:
MM: It all becomes clear.
Weir: . . . [A]t that point, he decided to hell with due process of law, this kid's goin' to jail. He didn't have a thing on me . . . It never got to court, but on the other hand, I did get thrown in jail and beat up a little bit.
MM: I still want to go back; you just happened to have that water balloon handy, it was kind of just like standard procedure.
DG: Gee, I wonder if...
Weir: He was the guy that was breakin' the law, too, the cop was.
MM: That's, that's - I agree.
Weir: I guess - . . . what does a water balloon amount to, is that assault with a, uh...
DG: Friendly weapon.
MM: With a moist weapon.
Lesh, DG:
MM: That goes under the water laws.
DG:
MM: And if it was tap water, that also...
Lesh: Disrespect for an officer.
Weir: Right.
DG: That was enough in those days - as I recall.
|
|
TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 02:36am PT
|
Sorry to here about this. Have enjoyed watching his videos/adventures over the years. Hopefully charges will be dropped or at least minimized.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 03:11am PT
|
According to Facebook his hearing is on the 14th. Nothing on which to go here.
|
|
maui_mark
climber
under a coconut tree
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 03:19am PT
|
BASE jumping is a PERMITTED ACTIVITY.
He got busted for performing an activity with-out a permit.
Parachute Delivery under current CFR regulations is a PERMITTED ACTIVITY.
SO ... what is the fine for CAMPING without a PERMIT??
HIKING without a PERMIT?
DO they throw you in JAIL?
TASER YOU?
BASE JUMPING in NPS is a PERMITTED ACTIVITY!!!
The NPS just REFUSE to accept and acknowledge anyones request for a PERMIT.
What if it was a GUN and the NPS shot AMMON and KILLED him for BASE??
How would ALL you feel??? EXCESSIVE FORCE is EXCESSIVE FORCE.
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 03:31am PT
|
not to play devil's advocate-
(and i am against LEOs everywhere having tasers at all)
but- does anyone know, didn't someone trying to run away from rangers after a BASE jump in YV run into the river and then drown?
maybe that history leads them to limit a young and athletic person's likelihood of running away.
sounds like excessive force, but of course there are possible circumstances that would technically make it a reasonable use of force...
so how can anyone really comment without more (and accurate) info?
i like ammon.
liking ammon does not mean the LEO did anything technically wrong.
and wrt the actual reg.s for BASE in YV, my understanding is that everyone who jumps in YV knows the deal- don't get caught. nuff said.
|
|
Tradmedic
Ice climber
Thunder Bay, Ontario
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 04:02am PT
|
Ammon, you're my hero!
|
|
wallguy
Big Wall climber
Utah
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 04:41am PT
|
It most have been Lober. That guy is a d*#k!
|
|
Anastasia
climber
hanging from a crimp and crying for my mama.
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 07:57am PT
|
Yikes! :( Sorry Ammon for such a horrible experience. I don't understand this level of violence when all you are risking is your own life. It completely lacks proper reasoning.
AFS
|
|
Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 08:16am PT
|
Where's the video? There has to be video. You can't poop nowadays without it being on video.
While Ammon may not be a dick, he may have been acting like one.
I am not siding with the LEOs (who I have many gripes about) but everyone is attacking them based on a short paragraph on a facebook page.
|
|
franky
Trad climber
Ford Pickup Truck, North America
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 08:48am PT
|
unless he physically attacked the ranger, then he didn't deserve to get tased.
|
|
Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 08:57am PT
|
Franky - that's kind of my point. We don't know. There isn't even a description of the event on the facebook page.
Maybe he landed, sat down in the grass and waited for the LEOs. When they got there they cut loose on him.
Maybe they tried to talk to him and he started swinging in an adrenaline infused rage.
Maybe a little of both.
We just don't know.
BTW if you google this subject the first thing that shows up is this thread. The ad on the left side of the google page is for a place that sells tasers.
|
|
Les
Trad climber
Bahston
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 09:04am PT
|
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 09:21am PT
|
I agree here with DMT!
We're living in "Alice in Wonderland" times now.
Quote, Queen of Hearts: "Let the punishment fit the crime, OFF WITH THEIR HEAD!"
I really don't approve of Tazering AT ALL! Taze someone with a pacemaker or bad heart is killing them, and use of lethal force. Just MHO.
|
|
Gilwad
climber
Frozen In Somewhere
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 09:30am PT
|
Matt-- Frank Gambalie died in the Merced river. He was trying to get away from the NPS after a jump. Only hung out with him a little but it was fun, his death really bothered me.
|
|
justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 10:05am PT
|
I just can't get past the fact that tazing just seems like really excessive force in relation to the crime. As for the politics of whether BASE should be allowed in the first place... I'll leave that argument alone.
|
|
Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 10:13am PT
|
This incident did not make the NPS Morning Report for the week
http://www.nps.gov/applications/morningreport/index.cfm
However, I did see that some illegals were busted for growing pot in the Park.
My speculative guess is that Ammon was fleeing the scene and was tasered. If so, then the question will become excessive force. Further, the accident with Frank Gambalie dying in the Merced whilst fleeing will be one of the first points brought up of why Ammon was tasered - for his own safety as they did not want a repeat accident. So they brought him down.
BTW It is my understanding that almost all permanent NPS Rangers eventually go through the LEO academy at some point.
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 10:21am PT
|
Yes they do. It's called FLETC (Fed. Law Enforcement Training Center). They also have to do Field Training at another park afterwards.
I am really interested to hear the details of why it was necessary to tase him. If he resisted arrest by means of fleeing the scene, tasing was way out of line. If he did indeed physically resist, well, all bets of are off.
By the way, does anybody here have any info on what the NPS policy is regarding the use of non lethal weapons?
|
|
Derek
climber
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 10:50am PT
|
This is shocking.
|
|
Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 10:59am PT
|
If you're a BASE jumper you're a dead man walking anyway, why worry about a little Tasing?
Especially when you know what you're doing is illegal. When you contemplate breaking a law, don't you have to consider the consequences of dealing with The Man?
|
|
Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 11:04am PT
|
And I was "over-reacting" when I complained about these clowns running around with semi auto assault weapons pointed into traffic, all to respond to the giant emergency of an empty SUV sitting in a pullout.
At what point does it become completely transparent that these cowboys are WAAAYYY out of control?
|
|
TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 11:24am PT
|
Which cowboys?
|
|
franky
Trad climber
Ford Pickup Truck, North America
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 11:33am PT
|
hey, someone lend me a BASE rig and teach me to jump so I can jump in protest. :)
not for selfish reasons, just to support Ammon.
|
|
Zander
Trad climber
Berkeley
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 11:44am PT
|
I don't know about this incident and I don't know Ammon but if I was a friend of his I wouldn't be mouthing off about law enforcement on the internet until after he works out the best deal he can.
Z
|
|
MisterE
Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 11:46am PT
|
I am glad Ammon is safe, although in a bit of trouble. Tasing seems a bit much, I would agree.
I don't understand this level of violence when all you are risking is your own life. It completely lacks proper reasoning.
AFS
I have been arrested for climbing a tree, they cited "Reckless Endangerment".
Reckless endangerment is a crime consisting of acts that create a substantial risk of serious physical injury to another person. The accused person isn't required to intend the resulting or potential harm, but must have acted in a way that showed a disregard for the foreseeable consequences of the actions
They said it wasn't about me potentially hurting myself, but I might land on someone if I fell. I imagine the officers could use similar reasoning in Ammon's case.
|
|
franky
Trad climber
Ford Pickup Truck, North America
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 11:47am PT
|
haha, that is awesome. arrested for climbing a tree because your flailing body might flatten someone. I want a ticket like that on my record just so i can explain it to people.
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 11:48am PT
|
We're living in "Alice in Wonderland" times now.
"Sentence first, Verdict Aaaftah!!"
100 base jumpers leaping off El Cap in protest, flying banners, "DON'T TAZE ME BRO!!"
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 11:52am PT
|
"The Wolf
Trad climber
Friend of Dope
Aug 27, 2010 - 08:24am PT
I was privileged this week to announce that Ammon has become and Ambassador for our small company. He is a man of courage, spirit, and integrity. We are shocked and saddened that Ammon had to endure this experience resulting from activities that people in our "community" admire. We stand behind Ammon regardless of the outcome and look forward to a long relationship with this remarkable athlete.
Jeff Vargen
Dope Miller Equipment"
Dear Jeff:
Would I be incorrect were I to guess that your company deals in base jumping equipment?
We have had other incidents in which climbers have had difficulties with public land managers due to their efforts to advance their personal financial interests. It would be good for us to know whether this is yet another such incident.
If you do not mind, please do not include me as a member of your "community."
|
|
elcap-pics
Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 11:57am PT
|
you pay your money ..... you take your chances..... My good friend Ammon is no fool, although sometimes he can act like it, as we all can. He knows from the experience of many of our base jumping friends that the best thing to do is just cooperate and say nothing without the advice of a lawyer and let the legal system take its course. He obviously didn't do that .... life goes on... it could have been a lot worse.
Legalizing base jumping in yosemite is a very bad idea. It sounds nice but imagine 200 people jumping off the Captain every weekend. There would be people landing in trees, the river, on the road... the mess would be endless. Who is going to fetch these people up? Who is going to pay the bills? People would come from all over the world to do the Cap and the impact on the top would be bad, hell it is already bad from us climbers! It is like jumping off buildings in a city... not a good thing. I have seen some "expert" jumpers land in the river in front of the bridge and they supposedly knew what they were doing ... also a certain hero of mine, almost ate it off the cap and just opened in time to hit the base and break an ankle... and these guys are "experts". Imagine the carnage if just ANYONE could do it.
Sorry but IMHO, Yosemite is not the place for legalizing it. It is just the old cat and mouse game in a different format. Some times you eat, sometimes you get eaten.
I await the flack!
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 12:36pm PT
|
It has been more than a week hasn't it?
What is the 411?
|
|
k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 01:24pm PT
|
Ammon Bro, hope this thing slides through easy for ya. A sad day fo sure, but I support ya ...Better days ahead.
|
|
Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 01:27pm PT
|
It's real hard for me to believe that Ammon didn't do something to warrant get tazed.
|
|
Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 01:41pm PT
|
It is hypocritical to let us climb all over the walls and enjoy our sport of climbing and then discriminate against another group that wants to use the resources as well.
Cool, do you think they will use California's hunting regulations or some Federal regs?
I am also trying to decide which trail I will do my first Yosemite mountain bike ride on. I bet Yosemite Falls trail is one fun downhill.
Do you think they will mind if I leave my dirt bike hauler in the Curry parking lot while I do a bit of dirt biking there? My buddy is going to bring his ATV as well.
|
|
GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 01:47pm PT
|
Man, sucks for Ammon. I hope he isnt banned from the parks and doesnt get sent to the clink, I think thats the biggest thign we should be worrying about. A little tasering? Ammon would probably get tasered on a dare, so I dont worry too much about him there ;D
|
|
doc bs
Social climber
Northwest
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 02:01pm PT
|
I agree that the violent scenery the valley climbers (and tourists) could be exposed to is daunting. Like free soloing, I believe this sort of activity is better done in private.
"Legalizing base jumping in yosemite is a very bad idea. It sounds nice but imagine 200 people jumping off the Captain every weekend. There would be people landing in trees, the river, on the road... the mess would be endless. Who is going to fetch these people up? Who is going to pay the bills? People would come from all over the world to do the Cap and the impact on the top would be bad, hell it is already bad from us climbers! It is like jumping off buildings in a city... not a good thing. "
YET, I am so sad Ammon got tased. I am happy his landing was safe so he can surprise us again with his antics.
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK LITTLE MONKEY!!!
|
|
The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 02:15pm PT
|
Mark Hudon said
"It's real hard for me to believe that Ammon didn't do something to warrant get tazed."
That's a bunch of bullsh#t. Everybody knows the rangers have a hard-on for basejumpers.
|
|
Les
Trad climber
Bahston
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 02:29pm PT
|
man, I gotta say, some folks around here give WAY too much credit to cops' ability to restrain themselves by speculating that Ammon HAD to have done SOMETHING to get tased. There's plenty of good cops out there, but there's a good deal of bad ones, too, or at least some who are prone to overreact. Probably best to wait until some semblance of the truth (an investigation, court hearing, etc.) comes out before jumping to unfounded conclusions.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 02:32pm PT
|
I doubt it was Lobo since Ammon was not likely in a wheelchair.
|
|
FrankZappa
Trad climber
80' from the Hankster
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 02:40pm PT
|
Let's face it, although Ammon is harmless and a good dude, he did do something illegal, and we all know the Tool will jump at the chance to Taze someone. Hang in the ditch long enough and you're gonna get tooled.
Sorry that happened to you bro!
|
|
Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 02:43pm PT
|
Hope he is feeling better. Getting tazed is no fun.
|
|
Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 03:26pm PT
|
lame.
|
|
wallguy
Big Wall climber
Utah
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 03:58pm PT
|
I got tasered at a blood for blood concert a while back, that s*%t was no joke. The f*%king cops had to get pretty damb close for it to work. My guess is that Ammon is getting a little slow in his old age. The El Cap Pirate got to feel the lightning, its a rush. Good luck in court old man! ha ha
|
|
Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 04:31pm PT
|
This is shocking.
Nothing short of stunning.
Curt
|
|
Gunkie
Trad climber
East Coast US
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 04:38pm PT
|
I used to work for the father of Taser International CEO and the current legal council for TASR. Apparently, all employees had to be 'tazed'. Maybe Ammon can work for TASR now?
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 05:26pm PT
|
There is such a profound cultural, social and political gulf between the US and Scandinavia that it's hard to know where to begin. Enough to say that the police in the US assume that those they are apprehending have guns, until they know otherwise. The police in Scandinavia, except perhaps in isolated situations, would likely be surprised if someone they arrested had or tried to use a gun.
There is a schizophrenic balance in the US between freedom and authoritarianism.
|
|
Ezra
Social climber
WA, NC, Idaho Falls
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 05:49pm PT
|
This is just sad! I doubt Ammon was posing a threat to the safety of the officer, I just doubt it.
Anders,You are incredibly perceptive, and I agree with you assessment once again!
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 05:52pm PT
|
If you want to read about, and view, some horrific police misbehaviour, including gross misuse of tasers, the Robert Dziekanski incident at Vancouver airport in October 2007 is a graphic example - from Canada. One of several incidents over the last decade involving the RCMP, misuse of force, and cover-ups.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Dzieka%C5%84ski_Taser_incident
|
|
Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 06:00pm PT
|
be nice to the evil one. he's going to "fix" the williamson rock closure.
fixing 101--first thing you learn in cop school.
|
|
strangeday
Social climber
The O.C. baby!!
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 06:18pm PT
|
Yes , I would very much like Williamson open again.
|
|
MisterE
Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 06:20pm PT
|
Hey, Jeff. Couldja get SR2 out of LaCañada opened again too, while you're at it?
TIA, Erik
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 06:23pm PT
|
Thank goodness it was set to stun, not kill.
|
|
Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
Transporter Room 2
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 06:36pm PT
|
Ammon's a tough monkey.
He'll be fine. No big Deal.
He knew what could happen. Let folks do as they will.
|
|
Blakeb
Gym climber
Southern Oregon, behind her
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 06:44pm PT
|
First of all, anyone that thinks tazers are not lethal, google tazer deaths and read about them ya retards!
Second of all, he was tazed in the back of the neck, so sounds clearly like he was fleeing and not fighting. No one should be tazed for a non violent crime that threatened only themselves while jogging away.
Of course, he knew and understood the repercussions of what he was doing, so there is no need to write rude things about him.
Tom had some really good points in opposition of legalizing base jumping in the parks and ammons FB group about this asks for support for him and the legalization of base jumping in OUR parks.
He also specifically points out that this is not an anti-ranger thing and those of you on this thread bashing the rangers are just crippling him and our community further.
Support the cause or dont, but quit sh#t talking about both sides, its not helping anyone
|
|
wallguy
Big Wall climber
Utah
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 07:05pm PT
|
Anyone who has ever met Ammon knows he is crazy, but he isn't stupid. We all need to remember that Ammon is aware of the laws in the National Parks. The fact that he got busted and was tasered is not the end of the world. He will be back climbing and jumping off epic rocks before we know it.
I think this just shows the lack of respect that the rangers have for the BASE Jumping community. Lober you can kiss my A*%!
|
|
Slabby D
Trad climber
B'ham WA
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 07:31pm PT
|
Seems like running, jogging heck anything short of shuffling would be a challenge in a wingsuit.
|
|
Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
Transporter Room 2
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 07:44pm PT
|
PFFFFLLTT!
ALWAYS run. You MAY escape. If you don't run, there's zero chance that you'll escape.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 07:46pm PT
|
In 1974 a cop saw someone siphoning gas from my Jeep, jumped from the car and gave chase while his partner drove.
When I arrived they were bumming.
The thief had gotten away and the running cop had lost his gun.
|
|
Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 07:53pm PT
|
Skully et al. have it right...
Ammon's a tough monkey.
He'll be fine. No big Deal.
He knew what could happen. Let folks do as they will.
I guarantee Ammon will not be whining about it like alot of you are.
It's the whiners that are probably responsible for Ammon getting tazed!
A few years back, some base jumper died because he ran into the river to get away from the LEOs, and drown.
How much do you want to bet (due to public outcry)that there were policy changes because of that, official or not.
How do you know Ammon wasn't running for the river?
Lets say hypothetically he ran into the Merced and drowned...
You same whiners would have your panties in a bunch, blaming the LEOs, because they didn't stop him!
My God! Is there anyway to apprehend someone that is non compliant that is
100% safe or that won't injure them in any way?
The LEOs were probably just doing as they are told.
|
|
Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 07:56pm PT
|
I know exactly what happened tha night. Amon was in no way a threat to the Rangers, he was running away from them. Both Rangers fired Tazer's at him, one barb hit him in the back of his neck. . .
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 08:05pm PT
|
Earl told me that tale too.
I have yet to hear of any witnesses.
Earl told me MANY stories.
Well, at least it sounds like a sporting hunt.
Two rangers vs one flying squirrel.
|
|
HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 08:11pm PT
|
lol Ron.
|
|
Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 08:18pm PT
|
Amon was in no way a threat to the Rangers
Irrelevant.
He was a fleeing suspect.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 08:24pm PT
|
What's the Boone & Crocket record on flying squirrels?
(and how do you measure the racks on the bucks?)
|
|
Prod
Trad climber
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 08:29pm PT
|
Are there any facts in this thread yet? I really don't want to read 111 posts to find them. Any help???
Prod.
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 08:35pm PT
|
Irrelevant.
He was a fleeing suspect.
So it is legal to use potentially deadly force to stop a fleeing subject? Just asking. I know it is legal to use such things as spike strips, that could hurt the fleeing subject by causing them to wreck. This is legal when the person is endangering others. So who was Ammon dangering when he was fleeing? Or why is it okay to tase someone who is running from what amounts to a ticketable offense? I know the rangers get frustrated because they probably have to chase lots of these guys. But is it really a good idea to tase someone in these circumstances. I can sort of understand the fear that the person might drown if they were heading towards the river. It must be hard to swim in one of those suits. But this isn't spring melt time. So who understands this? I really am just asking. And what happens if both tasers hit? Does he get a double dose and isn't that perhaps more dangerous?
Please understand that I am just asking. I really would like to understand this. I have friends who are LEOs and I know they are cool, but I have also been tooled and I have seen out of control rangers. So I know both sides of these situations.
|
|
Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 08:39pm PT
|
Fat or other tools ? - is resisting the same as fleeing?
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 08:43pm PT
|
This is just insane.
Anyone who will actually argue that a fleeing suspect from a base jump ought to be tazered is nuts. It's a misdemeanor and he was zero threat to the officers.
This country is getting crazy.
Good luck Mr. McNeely!
|
|
murcy
climber
sanfrancisco
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 09:21pm PT
|
But a case could be made that Ammon poses a constant threat of danger to himself and others. :)
|
|
Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 10:00pm PT
|
Holy Crap!
Just read all of this. TAZING a base jumper? That is just insane! I pretty much agree with most of what has been posted...
You base jump, you realize you are breaking the law and might get caught. But heck, who has not broken some law in their life realizing they might get caught? You speed on a deserted stretch of highway...should you get tazed? I mean, it's one thing to commit a crime that endangers anyone other than yourself...I just cannot get over this show of force for a base jumper.
Yes, the libertarian side of me thinks this activity should be legal. The realistic side can see why it is not. But tazing?
That is just bullsh#t. Whoever tazed him should be...TAZED!
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 10:10pm PT
|
I don't know what happened,
I just don't like the idea that a friend was Tasered for the act of jumping off a cliff and parachuting to the ground...
for that act he was met with a show of force way out of line with any implications or consequences of the jump he had just executed. I mean really, he just basically risks his life doing the base jump and then has to run for his life with the authorities having to prove they have control over the situation....
totally inappropriate.
|
|
Greg Barnes
climber
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 10:17pm PT
|
My first instinct is to agree with a lot of folks that it's way out of line to get tasered. But I'd have to hear the specifics first.
But, theoretically speaking, let's say someone runs for it after a base jump, a car chase is involved, and some little kid gets run over during the chase?
Then suddenly everyone would be singing a different tune.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 10:23pm PT
|
I never thought that "hot pursuit" was de facto justified...
the authorities wouldn't have been after Ammon if he hadn't jumped, if he hadn't violated "the rules"
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 10:26pm PT
|
It is right that we all be very interested in this.
It is even more right that we wait until we have some information.
|
|
murcy
climber
sanfrancisco
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 10:30pm PT
|
Try substituting: if he hadn't run, he wouldn't have been decapitated. It's only because he resisted arrest for double-parking that he was decapitated.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 10:32pm PT
|
Scott,
The rangers didn't kill anyone. That dude ran and jump into a swollen river.
Ed,
Ammon was not tasered for BASE. He was tased for resisting arrest or fleeing.
Fleeing/running from the cops probably made his misdemeanor a FELONY.
He went from a slap on the wrist to big trouble.
He is sure to get banded from national parks for years.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 10:41pm PT
|
What's happening Dingus?
|
|
Studly
Trad climber
WA
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 10:42pm PT
|
What did he really think was going to happen for flying the Jolly Roger?
There be ony two ranks of leader amongst us pirates! Captain and if your really notorious then it’s Cap’n! Cap'n McNeely. Yarrrr!
|
|
Zander
Trad climber
Berkeley
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 11:13pm PT
|
Some of you guys crack me up.
What is going on here is not some rational thing where you decide to break the law and you know what will happen. It’s a crap shoot. It’s the chimps of Gombe. It’s timeless and elemental. When you mess with the man, you just don’t know what will happen. In some ways he was lucky. It’s the USA, he just got tasered. Those poor three hikers are still in jail in Iran for just straying over the border- if they even did that. I don’t know what happened here but he took his chances. Some here have said he must have done something to tick them off. Not necessarily. People with guns get hyped up and the fight or flight mechanisms kick in and stuff happens. Is it right? No. Is it one of the reasonably expected out comes of a run in with the law? Yes.
DMT
I like “banded” better. “ Yeah, I jumped off El Cap and they banded me. Now when I migrate to south America every year they can track me and my flock.”
Zander
|
|
Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 11:22pm PT
|
Sure, DMT...the arrest is bogus cuz they didn't run after him and tackle him?
So the cops should have to be able to outrun any perp, risk injury, and get into a physical altercation by catching, tackling and subdueing suspects, no matter their size and then you will be happy?
Or just let everyone that runs get away?
Don't you people know...
"if the police have to come and get you, they're bringin' an ass kickin' with them".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8
|
|
Zander
Trad climber
Berkeley
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 11:35pm PT
|
Hey Warbler,
I read your post and immediately started nodding, "Yeah, that makes sense." Except... as I get older I see events seem to get away from people. Rationality and control are a lot of the time an illusion. Events start and they take on their own twisted logic. I await the actual description of what happened but I doubt the clean cause and effect you describe. Actually, I wish the world was more rational and understandable as your post suggests.
Zander
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 11:39pm PT
|
The rangers SAVED ammon.
He was about to jump through traffic like frogger.
Ranger +1
|
|
R.B.
Trad climber
Land of the Volcanic Mud Flow
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 11:40pm PT
|
You know the 2nd Ammendment now allows people to carry firearms on Federal Lands such as National Parks. From what I hear, the FED law generally bends to the "State" Laws. But think about this one ... The supremacy clause of Federal Law ALWAYS trumps local or state law.
If you don't believe that ... Just asK the State of Arizona about the immigration law that the Obuma Admin. just sued them over. If it's good for the goose it's good for the gander!
So maybe the LEO's were afraid that the "evil" base jumper was gonna pull a pistola ... and pop a coupla caps in their arse.
That's probably why they tased 'em.
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 11:46pm PT
|
The Second Amendment says nothing about carrying guns in National Parks or on Federal Land.
BUT, President Obama recently signed a bill that allows people who have a Concealed Carry license to carry loaded and concealed in the National Park within that State that their license is valid. He is the first President to expand gun rights in this manner.
If you do not have a Concealed Carry license, then you can still bring a gun into a park, if the bullets are kept separate and the gun itself is like in the trunk and has a lock on it.
What you do with it, or course, once you disclose you have a gun with you in this fashion at the gate, is a different issue.
|
|
R.B.
Trad climber
Land of the Volcanic Mud Flow
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 11:48pm PT
|
Good point Norton, but the second ammendment is the right behind the basis of the new law ... so tangentially ... may be correct ... who cares?
edit: And when the law is challenged in federal court, I will bet the ruling will be that "State Law" has nothing to do with the right.
In other words ... Fed trumps State trumps County trumps Local. It's funny to see how many communities across the USA get this hierarchy wrong!
(since when did a State immigration Law override a Federal Law ... just ask Arizona ... seems like that's the trend?!)
|
|
Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 11:52pm PT
|
it is amazing how many opinions are being expressed even though nobody knows even one side of the story! I'm very interested to hear the most important three or four sides of the story so I can even start to form an opinion.
|
|
Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 12:04am PT
|
Not quite R.B....
State law trumps Fed Law unless it is unconstitutional or violates a Federal law.
Example: The Feds say you can own a fully automatic machine gun.
California Law says you can't. So in Kalifornia it is illegal to possess a machine gun.
Nevada law says it is OK, so...you get the idea.
|
|
Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 12:09am PT
|
What could possible justify possibly killing Ammon or someone else, just to jump off El Cap?
Good question.
|
|
R.B.
Trad climber
Land of the Volcanic Mud Flow
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 12:10am PT
|
Mr Shack,
Do you suppose that someone has not the stones to throw at the State of California?
Fed ALWAYS trumps State ... Period ... just because CA says something ... don't make it constitutional (and therefore legal) soo ... it just takes one case to work up through the USA Supreme court to set the "interpretation" but above all ... all state governments swear an oath of allegiance to the USA constitution FIRST then the State constitution (because the state constitution MUST conform to the Fed Constitution.) and in some states, like CA, never the two twins shall meet.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 12:13am PT
|
COZ AND SHACK
are thinking down the wrong path.
Get you head out of your ass.
|
|
Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 12:20am PT
|
MTucker, you may want to read closer.
What Coz said and what I said are completely different.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 12:22am PT
|
It's a sorry old tale,
some young person decides to flaunt "the law" in a way not injurious to others
the authorities are determined not to allow that to happen
things escalate on both sides, each upping the ante, each more and more determined to see their side prevail
then something happens and someone is hurt or killed
and we are left asking, was it really so important that the ends were justified?
In my eyes, the "authorities" have the responsibility not to let the escalation happen on their side, as they have the ability to wield lethal force, so the consequences of their actions can be extreme.
There are other ways to apprehend someone besides running them down and forcing them to submit. It's just a matter of cost at best.
At worst it is a show of might.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 12:31am PT
|
Shack,
It is not a good question.
The tasering was not because of the jump.
I will give you related.
Saying anything remotely about " rangers are killing because of base jumping" (Fox News Spin) is ridiculous and I will call you out.
|
|
Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 12:35am PT
|
Do you suppose that someone has not the stones to throw at the State of California?
Many stones have been thrown R.B. by many different people/groups like NRA etc.
Basically since Kal law still allows someone to technically "keep and bear arms" the Feds won't do anything. The courts hear cases all the time challenging the laws and restrictions already in place as well as the multitude that Kal wants to pass, but until it gets to a Federal or Supreme court level it doesn't mean anything.
You see, it goes back to States Rights versus Federal rights.
States do have the power to make their own laws. The Feds should stay out of states business and just do the things that are required at the Federal level.
Example: Kalifornia has the right to allow Medical Marijuana in this scenario. there shouldn't be any Federal ban on Maryjane.
|
|
Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 12:41am PT
|
Gentlemen please, let's all ban together for some grammar and spelling.
|
|
Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 12:50am PT
|
Sorry Tucker, you are misunderstanding my post.
If you read all of my posts you might get a better idea.
In that post in response to Coz was pointing out the irony of being shocked that the rangers would,
"risk injuring or possibly killing" Ammon,
when in fact Ammon had already placed himself at "risk of injury or possibly killing" himself simply by doing what he did.
Don't tell me he didn't know what was in store.
He has been around and knew of all those that had gone before.
There are lots of stories out there that go way back.
I wish he had gotten away, but he knew getting caught was a possibility.
Was it GDavis that said he probably would've taken a Taze on a dare anyways?
Sucks, but the charges are probably more substantial now.
|
|
Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 12:52am PT
|
Sorry Wade, you obviously have no idea how lazy I am. :)
There, I fixed it.
|
|
Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 12:58am PT
|
Shack- 'round these parts you're Literati.
I was broadcasting to a wider audience...
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 01:21am PT
|
obviously there was a mis calculation on somebody's part.
the base jumper never should have been seen in the first place.
maybe he was all wired up on red bull or something.
i almost got tasered the other day by a traffic cop after 16 red bulls.
i ran over some cones to get into Kirks Steakburgers, so i am in line and the next thing ya know, johhny law is taking me outside,
sat me down on the side walk but i talked my way out with a cheeseburger.
never run in a car, that is just a nightmare fore everybody in the world.
but if you have a chance on foot,
i mean if you are down in a steep canyon and a big ol ranger asks you to please stop while he takes a shot off his inhaler,
by all means, the leo should be dispatched, i mean, c'mon,
how many times,
besides, it;s a rush to ditch the cops,
we used to swing on the flag pole at grant school until the cops showed up.
then we would sprint down to the play ground and lay flat as a pancake behind the six inch high tanbark enclosure,
the poor cops didn't have a clue, flash lights a danglin,
i don't think they ever did figure out how we could run so fast,
|
|
MeatBomb
Gym climber
Boise, I dee Hoe
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 01:25am PT
|
Ammon posts here right? Maybe someday we can get the real story?
|
|
Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 01:27am PT
|
I know Wade, but I realized I was guilty too.
|
|
R.B.
Trad climber
Land of the Volcanic Mud Flow
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 01:34am PT
|
I was at the base of El Crap in '92 gearin up for the Shield route.
I heard what sounded like a big friggin rock cuttin air and burning into the the talus at the base ... then all the sudden ... poof and it sounds like a sail boat's sail. We heard over 10 BASE jumpers do their thing. Floating gracefully over to the meadow and quickly collapsing the chutes ... to a waiting vehicle.
So, it's all about logistics. Sounds like something did not go according to plan.
With that said, hope that noone is hurt doing this ... and being tasered is overkill.
quite simply it appears the cops have over-reacted to this one.
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 01:44am PT
|
planet yosemite - a strange place indeed.
chased down in your spandex by mutants.
i wonder what the bears thought.
they should change the name to Yosemite National Nark.
or Yosemite Irrational Park.
|
|
Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 01:58am PT
|
Are there any facts in this thread yet? I really don't want to read 111 posts to find them. Any help???
Prod - you know the answer!
The first thing I was told at the Curry Co. orientation is "you are no longer in California. California's liberal laws do not apply here. Everything is a Federal offense."
|
|
TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 02:10am PT
|
Wade Icey,
It's "let's all band together."...not "Let's all ban together."
I noticed MH caught a spelling error of yours(speech vs. speach)earlier.
Yer having a bad grammar & spelling day, eh!
I'm worse(rely heavily on spell check)...no disrespect intended.
|
|
Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 02:27am PT
|
Trip-you're not reading with intent. I am writing within tent.
|
|
TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 06:13am PT
|
Entertaining thread drift,
But as I see it,
bottom line
If Ammon is the/a perpetrator...
Then who's the victim?
|
|
drljefe
climber
Old Pueblo, AZ
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 11:21am PT
|
Wade, could you help coz out, please?
|
|
Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
Transporter Room 2
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 11:42am PT
|
It's a rogue spelling.
The whole thread is littered with rogues.
Fight or flight, the Tool must tool.
|
|
Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 12:27pm PT
|
I'm amazed that the cops were there to catch Ammon, or any other base jumper. What, do they have some sort of base patrol? I would think they would be looking the other way.
Guess I'd be wrong. What a waste of tax dollars and resources.
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 01:20pm PT
|
i wonder if this is the same dude i saw at j tree,
we had a yosemite ranger/climber dude in our party who could have passed for a skin head if he got a shave.
i started talking about dano and this white arian youth who looked like he was on the juice, starting a rant about right and wrong and who broke the rules and blah blah blah,
i'm like, great, a climbing trip with frickin jack webb.
when i broke out the chronic steam poured out his ears,
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 01:24pm PT
|
Fatty is probably too mellow to be a real skull cracker,
i just don't see an ounce of cop in the guy,
i guess when that badge goes on, the plug goes in the 220 socket,
when you run, it scares the sh#t out of the cops too.
that is another reason they don't like it, besides pubic safety.
the guy who cuffed me was shaking so bad, it took him 5 minutes to snap those suckers shut.
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 01:31pm PT
|
so what is the most dangerous thing about base jumping?
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 01:39pm PT
|
when a situation goes jungle, things get real scary.
that is one thing i have respect for in our pubic servants.
if you have ever been in a "situation", you know what i'm talkin about.
so to deal with that every day, no thanks.
but cops are trained to react under stress, the rangers?
i don't think so.
so a situation like this is best called in and handled by people who know
what the f they are doing.
like setting up a perimeter, using some radios, maybe?
now we have a dirty arrest which means more court time and all that coorporate jive.
i don't want any more paper in my mailbox,
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 01:44pm PT
|
we have a Fremont cop that got shot up by some punk, full prayers going out,
some bad motor scooters these guys have to deal with.
but base jumpers usually don't pack heat, it changes the glide path.
|
|
ß Î Ø T Ç H
climber
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 01:49pm PT
|
"No wonder climbers are the usual suspects in the Valley, when so many willfully break the posted rules."
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 01:51pm PT
|
hey Fatty, ever read this book?
col Rex was a relative of mine up there in oregon,
|
|
Badwaters
Big Wall climber
Alaska
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 01:54pm PT
|
This coz dork sounds pretty arrogant. Brags about hanging out with Spec ops guys? Spec ops guys HATE bragging babies like this chump coz. You quite clearly have no clue regarding anything about law, you sound like such a moron with your "Ammon is a brother" drivel it is astounding.
I've gotta feel sorry for the folks of your generation having to hang out and climb with you, deep arrogance and ignorance are a bad combo, you, coz, are an expert in both it seems. Ammon broke the law, he very obviously did something that made LEO Taser him, get over it.
Good luck with your lawsuits against the NPS rangers!!
lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 02:33pm PT
|
For what it's worth, I appreciate fattrad's perspective as a former cop.
It sounds very real and realistic to me.
I don't read the political threads, or look at fox news (I've heard it is more of an "entertainment" perspective, not real news).
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 02:41pm PT
|
Well based on the assumption that he was running and shot in the back of the neck:
1. He got zapped for running not jumping.
2. Pretty pansy ass ranger who cant run him down so resorts to a weapon that can kill. If he was being chased for a serious crime sure, but base? Power tripper alert!
3. Eveyone commits crime such as speeding so keep your stepford wife "don't do ANY crime" sheeple talk to yourself.
Imo base should be allowed a few days a year in the off season. It does impact the other thousands of people there so you can't have it everyday. Since that won't happen some people do what they think is ok and jump anyway. Its just lame someone resorted to a taser because they didn't have the fitness or brains to catch him another way.
Btw the rangers don't have any responsibility for Frank, HE chose to jump in the river.
|
|
atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 02:52pm PT
|
The only problem I have with the use of the taser is that noone has posted video of it yet. Surely someone was filming.... Post it, itx gotta be hilarious.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 03:06pm PT
|
Bullwinkle saw it.
Was he running with the chute?
|
|
Brunosafari
Boulder climber
OR
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 03:30pm PT
|
Wow, this thread is getting carcinogenic.
Sorry Fad, Crag, and Bad, but principle should guide action and not the other way around.
Is there any way Tazer use can be justified for subduing a BASE Jumper in a National Park, even in the wake of a recent Fatality under similar circumstance? 'Come - On!
But I do agree with Crag that we don't know the facts. Maybe he was under verbal contract, making a Dew Commercial and that would get him a good attorney and a real Judge instead of judgmental people.
We all know the law can error in many ways --The Gospel teaches us that.
As The Master Said, "A Tree is Known by its Fruit."
We are looking, most likely, at an overly fertilized, Trigger Finger Tree.
|
|
pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 03:50pm PT
|
Is everyone here forgetting you are talking about a BASE JUMPER.
I think he can handle 1,200 volts delivered at .03 amps.
He can also handle the consequences of his actions.
Crying about "the man" is weak.
|
|
Brunosafari
Boulder climber
OR
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 03:55pm PT
|
you are supertuff, pud!
|
|
Pennsylenvy
Gym climber
A dingy corner in your refrigerator
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 04:23pm PT
|
I will reserve judgement until more facts on this matter. Only been to the valley 2 times tooled severly once, fuked with the other time. Outside of YOS national park NO run ins with LEO for 25yrs....nuf said.
|
|
elcap-pics
Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 05:59pm PT
|
This discussion sounds like the Republicans continuing to talk about nonexistant "death panels" even after they knew there were none in the health bill.
I do not think Ammon was tased because he was base jumping. Yet several of you continue to promote the idea that Base jumping = tasing. That is not a valid equation. Others say he was not doing anything illegal. Come on guys... reality check please... he DID something illegal... Ok?... LEO's swear an oath to uphold the law. So they upheld it. He got caught, too bad for him.
If you know Ammon, you know he doesn't respond well to authority... and IF he was PERHAPS bitten by a few KCobras before the jump, then who knows what what really happened?
This whole discussion is reminiscent of Chongo's situation in the valley when everyone was all excited because he finally got busted for living illegally in the valley for YEARS. The fact that he was guilty seemed to make no difference to them! Hell, some people even went into Federal court and lied for him! We naturally want our friends to suffer as little as possible for their mistakes but whining about him getting caught, when he knew the law and the consequences of breaking it, is just so much wasted energy. Several years ago I was busted for selling photos to tourists.. I could have bolted for the car but what is the point of that? I was guilty and I knew it so I went along quietly and had my day in court. That's what responsible people do. You fight it out in court, not with the arresting officers.. there is no possible good that can come from running... it only makes things get worse.
Ammon, if you are reading all this drivel, please do not respond in any way, on any forum.... anything you say will be used against you and in any legal matter it is foolish to say anything to anyone but your lawyer.
Ammon will have his day in court and all the bashing and whining here will make no difference. We all wish him the best... the rest is just people venting their own frustrations in their own lives.
I hope these will be my last words on this topic..
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 06:02pm PT
|
COZ
Read above.
|
|
Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 07:14pm PT
|
Well said Tom.
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 08:46pm PT
|
I just instant messaged a bit with Ammon, and he told me the basics. I believe you will all be outraged when you hear the particulars, as I was. What he told me, he revealed to me in confidence, so please don't ask.
Obviously he is knott going to comment here nor anywhere else.
From the sounds of things, you have not heard the end of this, not by a longshot. I wish Ammon the best!
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 09:08pm PT
|
So he WAS driving with a mad woman?
"He got weed! He got weed!"
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 10:20pm PT
|
"I just instant messaged a bit with Ammon, and he told me the basics. I believe you will all be outraged when you hear the particulars, as I was. What he told me, he revealed to me in confidence, so please don't ask. "
Then just keep your mouth shut and do not post that you even spoke with him on a public forum.
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 10:20pm PT
|
refer? i'd like some refer,
|
|
KyleO
Gym climber
Calgary, AB
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 10:30pm PT
|
^
lol...cintune
Quite unbelievable to say the least. Good luck Ammon, on the outcome. The NPS has changed and it is noticable not only in the south, but in Canada as well...
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 10:51pm PT
|
Sure, what ever Pete. Adding fuel to a non-existent fire.
Everyone on the wrong side of the law feels like they were abused and will get their day in court and their day of revenge.
Cops have a large latitude and protections when dealing with criminals.
This ain't no Rodney King.
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 10:58pm PT
|
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 12:41am PT
|
Out of five confirmed 5.14 climbs,
sheist!
|
|
neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 01:32am PT
|
hey there all, say, .... very sorry to hear the whole thing.... just got back online and hoped to hear that all are well...
hard things for all involved, in this, truly said...
well, hope things work-out best for all involved, in the long run...
:(
*fattrad, say, thanks for the advice about "not running"---i know a few young folks that know OTHER young folks, and this may someday be good advice for them, one never knows...
also---i am very glad that ammon is alive... it would have been awful, if this had turned out in a death, as we sadly are sometimes seeing such hard-sad-headlines here... :(
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 02:15am PT
|
Obviously we don't have the details yet so It's a bit dangerous to comment, but two points
1. If Ammon was tasered inappropriately, they will likely drop his case to avoid bringing it to the attention of the judge and such. That might be better than the legal treatment that other base jumpers get.
2. Law enforcement has cultural attitudes. For some reason, Yosemite Law tends to regard base jumping as an offensive, serious crime. They spend serious time and money staking out jumpers. In my mind, the attitude towards jumpers is out of line with the danger that jumpers pose to the resource and others. This might have played a part in the treatment Ammon got. Do you taser all fleeing suspects? Where does LEO draw the line? Maybe they feel if you need to flee, they need to stop you? I don't know how the law reads. You have to be close to tase so it's plain we just don't know what happened.
I have met some fine and professional LEO in Yosemite, but I certainly can't speak for all of them. Let's see what facts come up. Whatever happens, Ammon is a great guy and I hope he comes out of this Ok.
Peace
karl
|
|
Studly
Trad climber
WA
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 02:15am PT
|
Jaywalking, riding a bike without a light, talking on your cell phone while driving, driving with a headlight out. I guess these are all taserable offenses now. Where do they draw the line? As there should be a line drawn, and not left up to the cops "latitude".
Totally chickenshit to taze a base jumper.
|
|
Watusi
Social climber
Newport, OR
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 06:18am PT
|
I can say those Rangers aren't the sharpest "Tools" in the shed...
|
|
Badwaters
Big Wall climber
Alaska
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 10:41am PT
|
People like coz make climbers look pretty dumb, his posts exude ignorance.
Dano was killed because of his own shortcomings regarding his own rigging and mistakes, to bring his death into this discussion is beyond pathetic and a sign of deep ignorance, and frankly just plain disgusting. You forgot the fact he was also caught with a bag of cocaine, not just a loaded handgun.
Frank decided to run, no LEO made that decision for him, he died. It was his decision to run for it! His death also has absolutely nothing to do with the arrest of Ammon.
Why you insist making wild claims that Ammon was Tasered because he was caught BASE jumping has not one fact to back that false narrative. Tom made it quite clear, wait for the facts. I doubt you're correct with your wild and baseless assumptions
Get a grip dude, you're as clueless as they come!! The LEO Rangers are real cops no matter how much you hate them.
|
|
Badwaters
Big Wall climber
Alaska
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 11:48am PT
|
Erza, that is Scott Cosgrove.
And so what if someone was/is a good climber, he lacks common sense and a grip of reality.
And besides, Scott called out Sean Jones about his route on Half Dome with loads of silly comments including one where he said he wanted to kick his ass! He even eluded to the fact he was in the company of special forces members during that discussion for what reason exactly? Intimidation?
|
|
Badwaters
Big Wall climber
Alaska
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 12:09pm PT
|
BASE 104,
I've met Tom and I agree, very nice man. And very brilliant as well.
|
|
Argon
climber
North Bay, CA
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 12:24pm PT
|
"The LEO Rangers are real cops no matter how much you hate them."
Good point Badwaters - but I think that is the crux of matter. These LEO's did indeed act like real cops rather than like tolerant and enlightened stewards of a public treasure. I just saw another poignant example of the behavior of real cops. Check out the latest HBO Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel for an update on the shooting by police of Robert Tolan. Tolan is a minor league baseball player and son of former major leaguer Bobby Tolan. He was shot multiple times right in front of his parents at their home in Bellaire Texas by another chickensttt cop. Don't know if this cop had a taser - but he was shooting to kill. Here's a link to the story:
http://www.hbo.com/real-sports-with-bryant-gumbel/index.html
|
|
Badwaters
Big Wall climber
Alaska
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 12:34pm PT
|
Lovegasoline
Yep, Tasers are anything but nonlethal.
Cops shouldn't carry a Taser, true nonlethal methods of subduing suspected criminals are available.
|
|
Badwaters
Big Wall climber
Alaska
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 12:36pm PT
|
Coz, you implied it was the rangers fault by saying:
One dead, two dead.
I read your post, it was painful.
Dano and Frank's deaths have absolutely nothing to do with Ammon's arrest. To bring up their stories in the way you did was clearly to imply the rangers had something to do with their deaths even when you say otherwise.
|
|
Badwaters
Big Wall climber
Alaska
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 12:42pm PT
|
I agree fattrad.
Why some people think because they're famous climbers (lame) they can somehow be treated in a special manner by LEO is astounding.
You play, you pay.
But the Taser needs to be dumped. I read you post regarding how using nonlethal force to subdue suspects prevents injuries and such, but Tasers do kill people on occasion.
|
|
Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 12:43pm PT
|
interesting story about the indians, 104. a recent thread on here about shiprock kinda opened my eyes about stuff like that. there has long been an official tribal ban on the climbing there, but lots of local indians are sympathetic to us and a couple of them have even tried it themselves.
just a suggestion here from a former newsman. there ought to be some kind of news release about the arrest that ought to be public record and which would help focus this discussion. it wouldn't necessarily jeopardize either ammon's case or the government's if the matter ever came to court. the government owes the public an official version of what it did. doesn't mean you have to believe it, but at least you won't have to speculate as wildly as you're doing here.
my only problem with BASE is that it can suck some really good partners away from climbing.
|
|
Argon
climber
North Bay, CA
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 01:01pm PT
|
Chris Rock video is funny, sad but great advice. If Robert Tolan had followed it, maybe he wouldn't have been shot - particularly the advice to have a white friend with you. But the advice is sound - if stopped by the man, submit and lick his jackboot. You are likely dealing with an undertrained, over-entitled young man with an itchy trigger finger.
|
|
sunshinedaydream
Trad climber
the big granite bubble
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 01:06pm PT
|
My my we are such a culture of REACTING.... where is the wisdom in all this?
Its ironic how Yosemite LEO's can go from heroes to criminals overnight on this forum. Who do you think will be there, no questions asked, when you (judgmental climbing community) break your femur, or skull on El Cap and need to be taken off and flown as quickly as possible out so you can get to surgery and live to climb another day?
|
|
elcap-pics
Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 01:10pm PT
|
Coz .. you said I would have felt differently if I had been tased for selling my photos... that is the point... I was busted for it and not tased... why? I didn't try to escape!! Had I ran I could have been tased for resisting arrest... not for selling photos! See.... run and you are resisting arrest so you get tased to stop you.... cooperate and you go to the jail, get your paperwork, go home.
That said... I was not there and maybe Ammon didn't run or do anything but stand there and they ganged up on him and tased him just to teach him a lesson ... I don't know and I am making the BIG ASSUMPTION that people aren't tased without some valid legal reason. I don't know anything factual and most of you don't either... speculation is something to fill our time until facts are known. Like I said before... none of the bashing and whining on this post makes the slightest difference... and of course Locker is right ... it is an open forum and every one is entitled to whine and bash all the want!!!
Best of luck to my friend Ammon....
|
|
Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 01:13pm PT
|
Once again Tom, an excellent post.
Maybe Ammon didn't have the best plan or the tightest secrecy?
Perhaps there is a mole amongst Ammons circle of friends that tipped off the LEOs?
Or what if...
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 01:15pm PT
|
If you don't want to be 'mistreated' by LEO, don't break the rules. The 'rules' are in place for a reason (most of them). Some are just to make LEO jobs easier. Ones like 'no glass containers', are just for irresponsible punks, but can lead to folks like myself engaging in 'illegal activity'.
I break them on a regular basis, but you can't whine about it when you get 'caught'. You knew the rules! Ammon probably won't whine.
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 01:20pm PT
|
Its ironic how Yosemite LEO's can go from heroes to criminals overnight on this forum.
Not ironic. Most rangers in the park are great guys, but some are tools, and were known tools for a long time. If you have ever been hardcore tooled in the park, then you might understand this. I have the deepest respect for many rangers. Others I think should be fired.
The only reason I have posted to this thread is to express my concern over the use of Tasers. I am also glad that we are having this discussion because I think Tom makes a valid point and helps me understand better. I also appreciate Base104s comments. When you run, you change the experience. But I still have doubts of using a Taser to stop someone from running away from a ticketable offense.
|
|
Badwaters
Big Wall climber
Alaska
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 01:25pm PT
|
Coz.
I read you post(s). I don't need anyone to explain juvenile drivel, thanks.
Most cowards like you back of when its clear you've lost due to deep ignorance.
You very clearly didn't take the higher road when you made an effort to imply the rangers had something to do with Dano and Franks death and then went on to say then we have Ammon getting Tasered. You cannot escape the fact you made an effort to imply the rangers had a hand in both of those deaths.
"Now Ammon, taser in the back of the neck with a wing suit on. Could have been three dead, and for what? Base jumping! Not rape, murder, armed robbery but base and rope jumping." coz
Could have been three dead?? In your own words.
Ammon was Tasered, and you have absolutely no reason to say he was Tasered for BASE jumping. The facts will come out and more than likely he resisted arrest.
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 01:40pm PT
|
it is We who impower our law enforcement officers.
We decide how they should operate.
not the leo at each individual station.
germany is That a way.
We do not like it when the people We pay for F*#k Up.
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 02:08pm PT
|
fatty, you have any evidence photos from that "bust" ?
|
|
HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 02:12pm PT
|
Most "people" lack the common sense Chris Rock is describing.
In this thread, Fatty portrays comedic hyperbole as "common sense."
"A white friend can be the difference between a ticket and a bullet in the ass."
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 02:24pm PT
|
Fatty brought one of those blond chicks down to the crag,
must have been some plea bargaining going on, now i get it.
here's fatty on the way to the bust,
no seat belts, thats a 10 dollah fine rite dere>
so when will it be safe to climb in the park again?
did they catch the ranger who did this?
is he locked up yet?
they have a jail right there in the park, ya know.
been there many a time,
illegal firefall from the pt,
trundling a landslide into mirror lake,
you name it, been there, done that,
sexual assault on a beagle, oh yeah.......
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 03:44pm PT
|
so if we tazer an officer, it is not attempted murder on a police officer?
only assault on a peace officer?
either way, it's a cavity search,
all the cops wear blue gloves in my hood.
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 03:49pm PT
|
They are a product of their environment and,like most humans, are not any more capable of critical thinking and leaderhip than a rock.
What a pile of shit!
Are you serious with that generalization?
|
|
Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 04:22pm PT
|
Fattrad - let me see if your sheriffs department has any credibility...
"....Some nice citizens of Malibu complain about nude sunbathers in this tiny cove which is out of view of the families (Pirates Cove/Pt Dume Climbing). They complain to the captain of the station, who tells me and a few other deputies to go arrest everyone naked on that beach."
 ok.. citizen has problem. Goes to sheriff, blah, blah, blah, make it stop. Sheriff, a real reactionary, but being only one person, has flunkies who follow orders without question to arrest other good citizens...
The problem?
Who said it was illegal? Any signs? Why not move to get signs made, go to the beach and roust the naked folks letting them know that the police have been getting complaints, and to please not to the sunbathing here, meanwhile, signs are being made, next day, post the sign, then, if anyone gets naked, you have every right to arrest...
But no.. that's not how it works in your part of that departments... and this is the problem, pretty much across the board in America. Let me guess.. more conservatives/repugs than anything else in that town? (don't tell me.. I'm wrong in every way, on everything.. Except this is what you described to us.. )
"So, sixty people are marched up the hill, put into a jail bus and driven all the way downtown because "The People" had spoken."
And you want along with it, without thought, without question.. you just wne along with it whether it was right, wrong, American, or Unamerican.. you followed orders..
"Most "people" lack the common sense Chris Rock is describing."
ha!!!
I'd have to include a few police officers, and captains with this lumping in of most "people" (I'm assuming that when you put quotes around "people" you mean white, non-prisoner, believers on god, and so on... and not any "others")
"Oh, and I had better things to do, like get womens #'s on the beach."
good to know you had your head in the right place, even when peoples rights were being violated by the state/local police.. And you were such a catch....
good call fattrad. good call. Something to proud of. Put it in a memoir!
cheers
Post Edit: Too bad people insist on sending me over to facebook...
|
|
elcap-pics
Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 05:53pm PT
|
Riley you keep on saying he was tased for jumping off a rock... seems like a broken record to me.... I think he was tased for resisting arrest but I have no basis for that in fact... just seems far more likely to me. Others who have gotten caught, Fernando for instance, was not tased but was arrested, paid a fine, lost his chute, had to stay out of the park for some time... why wasn't he tased if your assertion that base jumpers get tased is true? Do you know of ANY OTHER base jumpers who have been tased?
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 06:09pm PT
|
Yeah, I don't think he was tased for jumping, but I do suspect they recognized him and because of previous difficulties had no problem taking off the white gloves when he tried to bolt and didn't hesitate to administer a little corporeal punishment, albeit cowardly by battery powered remote, when the excuse presented itself.
Most rangers do an excellent job overall, but demeanor can change substantially when dealing with certain people.
The problem mostly lies with the wannabe cops who don't have real criminals to deal with so they try to practice on those who's attitudes they don't like.
Mark my words.
|
|
Tarz
Mountain climber
Calli
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 06:14pm PT
|
Hey Tom, He DID NOT resist. Its a fact. Since you get jollies and some of your income from your exploitation of the climbers on El Cap, why don't you give them some benefit of the doubt. You like a few other people on here are jumping to conclusions. Speculation is nothing but speculation. Wait for th facts to come out to voice opinions of Ammon and the situation. Have a nice day!
|
|
Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 06:31pm PT
|
Tarz - where's your proof?
|
|
Tarz
Mountain climber
Calli
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 06:42pm PT
|
He gave us the details over dinner along with a witness's account. Quite interesting. We'll see how it plays out. Later....
|
|
elcap-pics
Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 07:25pm PT
|
Well I have certainly pointed out that I have none of the facts and am just speculating. I just hope that some of the "witnesses" are not the ones who thought it ok to lie in court in the Chongo case, as that was in a big way responsible for the lack of trust/respect the law in yosemite has for climbers/basers. That's one reason I don't give anyone the benefit of the doubt but SPECULATE on what seems to me to be the most reasonable explanation.
Listen ... all the posts on this thread are speculation... that's what we all do most of the time here. Of that I am well aware but that is what is propelling this story at the moment. So we ALL get to speculate!!
I think the best thing at this point for Ammon is to make a deal with the prosecutor and be done with it. But, if what you say is true, and I am not convinced of it yet, then he does have legal grounds for a suit that could be quite a benefit to him in the long run... whatever happens will all play out soon and no one wishes Ammon more luck than I do. And I know if he is at fault then he will man up and admitt it.... if not at fault then it will be decided in the court.
As for my "exploitation of climbers"... funniest thing I've read all day! Funny thing is that my exploitation of climbers has cost ME thousands of dollars over the years.
|
|
Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 07:29pm PT
|
I can’t resist, I have to post
Two things….
Firstly, I cannot believe I took time to read all of this thread, and then to respond to it. Especially with my new task as a full-time care giver to my fiancée. Three days into the job and I realize I have my work cut out for me.
At least I can be on the granite in Dalkey Quarry within five-minutes walk of the front door. Or the fitness centre at Fitzpatrick’s Castle, about the same distance.
But I found this thread ‘compelling’.
Having very, very little facts, and not know any of the people involved I cannot come to any ‘judgment’ or opinion as such.
In most probability, on one incident in YOS (see below) that I experienced, the ranger may have over-reacted.
Until the facts (rather turn out to be true or not, heh heh, depending on one’s point of view or the other’s – perhaps those that can manipulate records and files) are made public, or common knowledge – as such – then most of us can only speculate as to what happened.
Did he resist? Did he just turn and run when confronted? Was there a threat of violence from the ‘perp’? Was…? What…? How…? etc, ad nauseam.
Time will (perhaps) tell.
Now 1976… (I have told this story on the forum before, but perhaps this is the most appropriate place for it).
Quickly here, I’ll try to be short (at 5’6” some people may say I am, to Lilliputians, not) as possible
I was staying in C4 but I drove over to the Curry car park to take a shower in C employees showers. I was still high from a ‘trip’ that a certain David and I did that day.
As I was going back to the car a Curry security bloke and a LEO ranger stopped me. The LEO marched me back to my car to get my ID (Cali Driver’s Licence) that was in the glove box. As I reached in, from the passenger’s side, to the glove box, he pulled his gun on me. Sh#t was I scared, still tripping a bit, and a gun pointing at me. Never happened to me before.
As it was, he told me to get out of the parking lot, so I drove over to C4 and found a spot.
There is an aftermath/”follow-on” to this story, but it is not pertinent, for the most part, to this thread.
Needless to say, I probably was acting weird to the LEO (coming down from acid… no, not the ranger, me!). I could have been reaching for a weapon in the glove box, especially considering my behavior (highish) so he “plays” it safe.
If he had a Tazer would have he used it? Who knows.
Do I blame him for pulling his gun? No, not really, considering my behavior (highish), and especially as it was things turned out “okay”. Except for the following “rescue” scenario later that evening (which got David Y a dinner at the Four Seasons and me a lot of grief with the aforementioned ranger).
Now back to the thread, I do not know what happened, and until we hear both sides of the story, perhaps we will… or won’t know what happened.
And I am not taking any sides. Fence-straddling, so to speak. Though I am leaning to the climber’s side.
|
|
apogee
climber
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 07:42pm PT
|
Tarz:
"Since you get jollies and some of your income from your exploitation of the climbers on El Cap..."
Wow. What a jerk.
"Later."
Don't let the door hit you in the arse!
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 07:49pm PT
|
Tom get "income" for exploiting climbers?
Yeah right, I bought two posters from him at the bridge for $20, which he donated to the
Yosemite Climbing Association.
Please explain EXACTLY how Tom gets personal income from exploiting climbers.
|
|
Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 07:49pm PT
|
Tarz - did anyone video it? Don't those guys usually tape everything?
|
|
Tarz
Mountain climber
Calli
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 08:04pm PT
|
I spoke outa line regarding and I apologize for that, but I still think everyone should wait for the facts to come out before rendering opinions or judgement. Tom please accept my apology.
|
|
Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 08:28pm PT
|
fatty,
"Have you no clue about anything in the world???? Of course warnings had been given to many people for several weeks in advance of our "sweep". There was no way of knowing who had previously been there or not, so all nude sunbathers got the bus trip."
well.. given the fact that this was not mentioned anywhere in your post.. and of course.. only now.. ah, ha... "IT IS!!"
"of course warnings had been given..."
what a crock. This is, to be sure, the re-writing of history that so many republicans like to do....
It's all in the past now anyway.. you did a great job for your boss, you can be proud of that, even if you now realize that you had no morals, thought, or choice in any matter... Be proud being a tool pays the bills right?
Why else would you need to ask "Have you no clue about anything in the world"
as if to say.. you are the clued in on everything in the world..
that's the topper-most of the popper-most of self-impressiveness, and self-importance.
you might want to edit some of that in your post so that others don't get the wrong impression as you think I have. Not that you care what anyone says or thinks... but then again.. if you couldn't care less... you may not have posted your response as you did.
fatty.. go on with yourself.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 09:28pm PT
|
Hahahaha
Almost 300 posts of pure mental speculations.
Does anyone have any control of their runaway minds?
|
|
neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 09:29pm PT
|
hey there say, wbraun.... wow, happy good eve to you....
say hey there to anyone i know, up your way....
(chappy included, of course) .... :)
god bless, nice to hear you this eve...
:)
|
|
Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 09:33pm PT
|
neeb - didn't I just read that you were gone forever?
Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 19, 2010 - 06:05pm PT
wt?
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 10:34pm PT
|
If juries responded to cases before trial the way we have been responding here, would you personally ever risk going to trial?
Here on ST this group of people has demonstrated a level of behavior far inferior to that which is needed if our nation is to survive.
It has been that bad.
|
|
Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 10:37pm PT
|
John, I think you didn't get the memo: This just in:
We (the US electorate) Are Ungovernable.
and I don't mean that facetiously.
|
|
Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2010 - 10:37pm PT
|
The people that know ain't talking. As it should be:-)
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 01:25am PT
|
Just a thought on Basejumping.
I've heard from Rangers that BITD when it was legal for awhile, it went pretty well. Now the gear is better and the sport safer. (still, it's a dangerous sport)
I don't jump but I have to sympathize with those who do. Higher in this thread it was predicted that all kinds of evil would impact the park if jumping was legal. This is plainly not true as Hang Gliding is regulated, legal and happens all the time with little problems.
Base Jumping could be done the same way, with required experience, permits, (maybe a lottery) and even a fee so the NPS could hire a ranger or two to oversee with without busting their budget. They already jump during times when few would notice. Like the gliders fly when most folks aren't out yet.
Let's face it, most serious base jumpers want to launch off El Cap at least once. Why treat it like they are violent criminals? The only reason for the harsh treatment is that it's against the law and there's not many laws being broken in Yosemite and there's lots of guys paid to enforce laws. I drove from Tuolumne to the valley the other day and passed 4 LEO vehicles and that's normal. If it's your job to enforce laws, you do what you can to find lawbreakers (in many cases)
This is yet another case of prohibition creating unnecessary criminals. Of course they shouldn't run from the law, but hey, the punishment should also fit the crime.
Peace
Karl
|
|
Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 01:49am PT
|
I remember figuring out who "Badwater" was a while back, and I distinctly remember him carrying
on conversations agreeing with himself. Let me see if I can dig up those gems. In the meantime,
I agree that it's pretty chickenshít to blast Coz while hiding behind a pseudonym. Coward!!
Dave Buchanan
|
|
Blakeb
Gym climber
Southern Oregon, behind her
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 01:49am PT
|
Agreed, hate the anonymous sh#t talking, wish everyone just posted with their real names
|
|
TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 02:22am PT
|
Patrick Sawyer!
Interesting story from bitd(1976)although somewhat abreviated(short)and you left out the ending(D.Y. & the 4 S's). Good thing that they didn't have tazers back then...that woulda been a really bad "trip"!!
|
|
Argon
climber
North Bay, CA
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 03:13am PT
|
I agree with Karl's point that there are not that many laws being broken in Yosemite but lots of money being spent on enforcement. I think the pendulum has swung in many parts of the country to the point where we have way too many law enforcers focusing their efforts on petty offenses (traffic, minor drug possession, persecuting Blago) while far less energy is spent on real public safety. On a percentage basis, it seems that they catch far more base jumpers in YNP than they do murderers here in San Francisco and Oakland. Karl passed 4 LEO vehicles on his short trip in the park - while driving from SF to Marin Friday night, I passed 12 cop cars in about 8 miles from 7 different jurisdictions (SF police, Golden Gate Bridge patrol, CHP, Marin sheriff, Sausalito police, Tiburon police plus a GGNRA ranger - I made a quick trip to Rodeo beach in the Headlands.) Personally, I don't feel that the priority of any of these 7 organizations is to protect and serve me, far from it - yet I'm forced to contribute to their bloated and redundant staffs and infrastructure and their unsustainable pension and benefit programs. The state is choking on its public sector obligations - we should have a massive reduction in spending for enforcement in this petty offense area. Yeah, I know that traffic stops and DUI checkpoints snag a lot of real criminals and other undesirables - but it seems that their primary purpose is to annoy the taxpaying public and generate revenue for gov't coffers. It's a shame that Yosemite is over-LEO'ed. Let's say we did cut back enforcement and the next guy to base jump El Cap had, say, a 50% lower chance of being tasered, then I'm OK with it. I'll still visit the park. And their budget might look a little better. And I would still be highly unlikely to base jump - but I might risk taking my dog off lease in Tuolumne.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 03:21am PT
|
It's a business. like anything else. Also, why a lot of climbers now operate outside of parks...
|
|
Papillon Rendre
climber
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 03:49am PT
|
Well, Bad Water, I must be incredibly ignorant because I got Coz's point.
Sounds to me that he is saying due to the extreme measures of dragnet LEO's, for offenses that are not too severe, their actions can cause some severe reactions, possibly resulting in death.
Perhaps the hunter should evaluate the severity of the crime, more carefully, before they use extreme measures for apprehending the non-violent violators. (not saying this pertains to this specific incident)
I can understand their behavior if the offender was a violent criminal, but for base jumping? Maybe they should sachez down to the bridge, and really have some good fun. A lot of criminals down there and the sign clearly says "no jumping".
|
|
neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 06:55am PT
|
hey there jingy say.... as to your quote:
neeb - didn't I just read that you were gone forever?
Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 19, 2010 - 06:05pm PT
oh my.... i would not have said "forever"... it is too precise :O ....
BUT-->i truly DID have a great fear though, that my poor ol' computer or modem was "near done for" and that it would be a long hard haul, til i could ever make it back here again... :(
but three cheers, to the grace of god, i found the proper trail, and my trouble was due to:
netzero having a notably newer system than i knew of----so new, it knew not my computer's nomenclator that it cators to calling it's sign-on code, naturally it was then a nomad, newly unknown to them (though in fact, it nicely HAD known it,until now)... well none the known-less, i AM BACK.... :)
oh my---you can go read up on the whole mess (on that post's newer info), and the wonderful good news that helped me...
wow, HOPE all is well with you jingy, and that the week will be special and very nice for you...
god bless...
*back to ammon mcneely post now...
:)
edit: ooops, forgot... i am very sorry if i caused some confusion there, to you jingy....
once again, computer is okay now...
god blesss...
:)
|
|
that old guy
Trad climber
CA
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 08:05am PT
|
Back in the day, I got pretty harassed in the Tuolumne parking lot for sorting my gear alongside my vehicle. Just a weekend climber trying to get a little natural high. Toe the line in the Park, that's all I can say, esp. speed limits. I did get hit head-on on tioga pass rd. in the middle of the night, they did give the other guy a ticket, & helped me out considerably. That guy wasn't in a cop car, though, just a Ranger.
|
|
sethsquatch76
Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 08:51am PT
|
ATTENTION ALL OUT LAWS AND PIRATES:
YOSEMITE IS NOT SAFE FOR YOU, ABANDON THE DITCH, EJECT, ESCAPE, THE MAN HAS YOUR NUMBER, ITS NOT IF YOU WILL GET BUSTED, BUT WHEN...... THE FORBIDDEN FRUIT WAS EATEN A LONG TIME AGO....... LET THE VALLEY GO AND MOVE ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BLM and Forest service land is much more suited to the outlaw life style. I have not climbed in the valley in 6 years, cant get comfortable there.
|
|
justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 09:45am PT
|
Karl Baba: It's my observation that there is a fundamental difference between the culture and attitudes of hang-gliders vs BASE jumpers. Gliders tend to follow rules. A segment of BASE jumpers prefer not to.
I spent all day climbing yesterday with the first person to ever get arrested for BASE jumping off El Cap. We discussed this case of course. We also discussed the brief legalization and his input on why it was de-legalized in short order. A large percentage of the BASE jumpers just refused to follow even simple rules like having to jump before a certain time in the morning, as well as a few other reasonable guidelines. Chaos ensued. People were jumping off anything they wanted at any time of the day without a permit, so the privilege was taken away. They basically blew their opportunity. Should this tried again? I don't know.
|
|
Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 10:31am PT
|
if you stayed away, one less tool. . .
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 10:42am PT
|
Karl Baba: It's my observation that there is a fundamental difference between the culture and attitudes of hang-gliders vs BASE jumpers. Gliders tend to follow rules. A segment of BASE jumpers prefer not to.
Probably some truth in that, but the gliders have more legal places to fly and I imagine it would be harder to glide away from the rule enforcers than fly away in a few seconds and disappear. I hear the jumpers did abuse their privileges.
It's probably worth noting that in the minds of the NPS, Backpackers tend to follow the rules while some climbers prefer not to. This was the old mindset anyway. Now climbers and NPS have got more cooperative, work together on access issues, and don't play as many games of hide as seek. That could happen with the jumpers as well as their sport matures and they want access.
Peace
Karl
|
|
pc
climber
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 10:49am PT
|
Bullwinkle, You're truly one sour mofo.
|
|
Douglas Rhiner
Mountain climber
Tahoe City/Talmont , CA
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 12:08pm PT
|
Agreed, hate the anonymous sh#t talking, wish everyone just posted with their real names
YES!
And please start with yourself!
|
|
Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 12:32pm PT
|
At the New there is Bridge Day where it is legal to jump from the bridge. It is a huge boom for the area.
http://www.officialbridgeday.com/
Perhaps there needs to be a El Cap jump day. Once a year anyone who wants to jump can jump. The rest of the year - off limits.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 12:46pm PT
|
I was thinking the same thing as SS.
Jump Day.
Can a squirrel suit be made taser-resistant?
Let the games begin,..
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 12:51pm PT
|
So if they have one day a year what are they going to do with all the body
bags the rest of the year? And what happens if on the annointed day the
RangerJumpMaster decides the winds aren't right or there aren't enough
Turoids clogging the meadow - a riot on top of El Cap?
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 01:13pm PT
|
'Now what could have mean old Ammon done to deserve this," Well phrased, Coz.
Could he have been tased to prevent, a jump?
I like banded, too. Makes me think of that guy in Snow Crash who had "poor impulse control" tatooed across his forehead.
"Excuse me, hate to interupt, but it's against the law to jump off this bridge...
Say Uncle and we'll take you to the mental health Zoo" Jello Biafra,
-maybe he should conduct sensitivity training seminars for LEO's?
|
|
Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 01:18pm PT
|
It doesn't take a genius to understand that after jumping off a 3000' cliff and landing, a person is going to AMPED on adrenaline and thus primed for a fight or flight response.
Any LEO policy that ignores that, and a "detain by any means necessary" policy on apprehending a base jumper does ignore that fact, is creating more problems than it's solving.
And you tool apologist claiming that tazers are safe need to do some elementary research.
From Amnesty:
"Since June 2001, more than 351 individuals in the United States have died after being shocked by police Tasers. Most of those individuals were not carrying a weapon."
|
|
bmacd
climber
Relic Hominid
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 01:21pm PT
|
monetize el cap base jumping with a permit system and schedule jumps for the tourons to gawk at
|
|
pc
climber
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 01:26pm PT
|
Would it still be against the law if the chute was just a safety device in case a climber fell off El Cap? 'Officer, I was just topping out when I greased off...'
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 01:30pm PT
|
pc, your idea wrongly assumes that rangers employ logic.
In Valley of Fire state park climbing is not prohibited however, in the interest of safety, one is not permitted to climb with a rope.
I kid you not.
|
|
elcap-pics
Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 01:39pm PT
|
I have come out against LEGALIZING base jumping in the park. I of course thought about the permit system... knowing what I know about base jumpers they will jump any time they damn well please. You know it is true. If they allowed jumping one weekend a year do you honestly think that these people would abide by that!! What a joke! Why wait for one or two days a year, get a jump lottery ticket and then wait in line to jump when you can do it for free any time you want? Not going to happen.
So I think it should be kept illegal... that way the people who do it are going to figure a way out to do it without being seen or getting caught, as it has been done for years. Yes yes from time to time someone will screw up and get caught... that is tough luck for them but the vast majority of jumpers I am friends with to it on a regular basis and don't get caught. I would venture a GUESS that less than one jump in 2500 gets caught... not bad odds.
The trick is to be so experienced and organized that you dont get caught. That way the hacks and shouldn't be there types either don't try it or get caught. With legalization all kinds of regulations and problems will arise!
KEEP BASE JUMPING ALIVE AND WELL .... DON'T LEGALIZE IT!
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 01:42pm PT
|
uh,... el cap pics
what would happen if somebody posted that but substituted the term climbing for base jumping?
|
|
corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 01:43pm PT
|
Its all relative. The higher the take off point the longer the fun lasts.
|
|
marv
Mountain climber
Bay Area
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 02:03pm PT
|
I like the keep-it-illegal argument mentioned above. Keeps enough of the riffraff away but doesn't deter the committed/having-their-shit together (who apparently don't get caught except improbably).
Dylan: "To live outside the law you must be honest." Word.
|
|
elcap-pics
Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 02:06pm PT
|
Climbing, at this time, doesn't have the inherent problems that base jumping is associated with. Climbers don't generally have to be rescued from the top of tall trees, climbers don't generally land in front of cars on the road. Climbers don't generally land on top of your car. Climbers don't generally land in the river. Climbers don't break their legs at the end of a climb as jumpers sometimes, but rarely, do. Climbers don't generally dominate the vistas people who have come to see so called "nature" will be seeing.
As far as danger goes... although base jumping is PROBABLY more dangerous I don't think danger is a valid reason to ban it as people get killed all the time doing less dangerous things. I am mostly speaking of jumping ElCap with all its inherent problems.
I would be in favor of allowing jumping off the Dome as there is pretty much no chance of landing in car travelled roads or in areas that are full of tourons. Rivers and trees are still a problem however, but I feel certain the park service would not want to have to fetch all the screw ups from Dome jumps as the terrain is very difficult and the jump does not have a huge meadow to land in... at least it seems manageable while jumping ElCap seems to be almost unmanageable.
Certainly there is no easy solution to this matter. If there was it would have been resolved a long time ago... well ...I suppose it has been resolved... it is illegal. That is the easiest thing for the park service to do as it eliminates all the rescue problems entirely! The road to legalization will be a hard one as it will require an already stressed NPS to assume even more responsibility and cost.
I still think that far more base jumpers will get to jump ElCap, though illegally, than if some system, which probably will bring its share of complaints, is instigated.
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 02:06pm PT
|
Bridge Day seems to work pretty good. But as I posted earlier, it ain't happening in a National Park. They don't need the tourist dollars.
My friend had a great quote: "The kind of people who want to be cops, should not be cops!" But of course it's been mentioned here numerous times, most rangers are cool and helpful. It's the power trippers who shouldn't be in that line of work who cause problems. The people drawn to law enforcement because they want to control people, not help people. And unfortuneatly there's also a culture of protecting your fellow officer even when THEY break the law.
|
|
marv
Mountain climber
Bay Area
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 02:10pm PT
|
"You know the score. If you're not a cop, you're little people."
|
|
elcap-pics
Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 02:11pm PT
|
Bridge Day is ONE DAY... do you really think that one day is all that is needed to stop all other jumping in Yosemite for the rest of the year? Nope... don't think so Bro!
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 02:20pm PT
|
All a legal jump day(s) would do is to allow those who don't want to break the law a chance to do it legally. It probably wouldn't make a dent in illegal jumping.
I've done enough legal and illegal stuff to know that I'd rather have the plenty of time and low stress situation that comes with doing it legally than to have to run and hide AND plan my jump safely.
But like I said it's not happening anyway. Too much hassle, no benefit for those in charge.
The biggest thing the park service looks at is the impact on other visitors. Millions of tourists don't want to see colorful chutes in their vacation pics. They don't want to hear the 'sonic booms' of slider down openings.
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 02:40pm PT
|
Millions of tourists don't want to see colorful chutes in their vacation pics. They don't want to hear the 'sonic booms' of slider down openings.
Not certain that I agree with that sentiment. My parents got a kick out of seeing the hanggliders. But then at 80 years old my mom wanted to try it. She did her first white water trip at 78.
We have been coming to the park since I was 4 years old. We have floated the river, canoed the lakes, camped, swam, hiked and just generally enjoyed the park for years. The things that bothered us the most were rude people, litter, and noise. Sometimes the crowds bothered us, but we knew how to escape them, just hike a mile. ( at least on most trails. The falls trails are a whole nother ballgame )
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 02:58pm PT
|
Speaking of taser incidents, there was a doosy in the midwest about a year ago. The cops got a report of a potential suicide and responded. They found a man in his front yard had doused himself with gasoline and was threating to set himself on fire.
So, they tased him.
Guess what happened...
|
|
Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 03:04pm PT
|
Sorry Peeping Tom, but this is beyond ridiculous:
"Climbers don't generally have to be rescued from the top of tall trees, climbers don't generally land in front of cars on the road. Climbers don't generally land on top of your car. Climbers don't generally land in the river. Climbers don't break their legs at the end of a climb as jumpers sometimes, but rarely, do. Climbers don't generally dominate the vistas people who have come to see so called "nature" will be seeing.:
And NEITHER DO BASE JUMPERS, you disingenuous clown. Out of the probably 5,000 jumps done in the last decade in the valley, how many have included ANY of the above BS? Talk about your over generalization and simplistic horsesh#t...geez.
Dominate the vistas? A base jumper is visible for what...25 seconds from launch to chute gathered and gone? Whereas there are bright ass red and yellow portaledges on El Cap for weeks at a time. Get a clue.
Oh, but maybe you mean touristy lookout vistas? Funny, I've NEVER seen a tourist within miles of the Mescalito launch.
|
|
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 03:06pm PT
|
Base jumpers scared the crap out of me on El Cap (I used a tube), but nobody promised me a rose garden.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 03:21pm PT
|
Holy crap rif, talk about suicide by cop.
Maybe the cop should say he reached for the wrong holster,..
I wonder what our paternalistic culture that seeks to protect people from themselves will come up with if jumping becomes more popular, giant nets strung along just below the rim?
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 03:27pm PT
|
Yeah, you gotta wonder what the cop was thinking.
|
|
Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 03:31pm PT
|
thinking?
|
|
Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 03:43pm PT
|
No Shít!
Wow...
|
|
elcap-pics
Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 03:50pm PT
|
Well Elcapinyoazz... you are right in that there have been few incidents of people in trees or in front of cars in yosemite... could that be because it is illegal and only a select few jumpers with a lot of experience go off Elcap? Imagaine for a moment, that jumping becomes legal... seems to me there will be many more jumpers going off than before and certainly the ranks of the experienced will be thinned by those of less experience. Well... my base jumping friends will do just fine for the most part, but the new multitudes may not fare so well. Get the idea.... many less experienced jumpers will, most likely, lead to landings in bad places. I saw one of the most experienced jumpers in the world land in the river one day at noon right in front of me... so is it not possible that the less experienced will not do so well and will need someone to fetch them up?
We differ on this topic, obviously, but your rudeness to me is uncalled for.. I have not insulted you in any way, because of your opinion, and I don't even know who you are as you don't identify yourself.... all I have done is post my opinion in a reasoned and rational manner... your name calling diminishes you man.... not me.
|
|
TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 03:57pm PT
|
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 04:15pm PT
|
Lodi ain't known for it's safety. My wife got a gift certificate for a Tandem there and I sold it and paid the difference for her to go to Davis.
My brothers first time there he asked about the landing and they just said "you'll figure it out" he almost landed on the freeway and came in UNDER the power lines.
Sure is fun to watch them when we're blasting down 99 though!
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 04:39pm PT
|
From: http://www.terragalleria.com/mountain/info/yosemite/base.html
Back to El Cap, in 1980 the park experimented with allowing skydiving. Some people who wanted to legalize and promote jumping off of EL Cap convinced the USPA to establish legal jumping with the NPS. Reasonable guidlines were set up like permits, liscense requirements, time of jumping, probably similar to what is happening now with hanggliding. This lasted about 2 or 3 months. There were a lot of problems such as people leaving trash and damaging the environment and not following the requirments.In general many people were not behaving responsibly. There were a few rescues and minor landing injuries but no fatalities of major injuries. While all this was happening 'the as#@&%es' decided that they didn't want to hike all the way to El Cap so they drove there truck up an old logging road as far as they could. This must have been from Big Oak Flat. The Park may have arrested or cited them, but the USPA thought It would help our image if they took action against them and expelled the people involved. Then these people sued the USPA claiming they had no business regualating base jumping. The USPA decided to drop the whole thing. The NPS outlawed base jumping in national parks. Skydivers and base jumpers did not make a very good impression with the NPS and base jumpers alienated the USPA. Now back to the present. In 1993 a base jumping organization tried to convince the park to allow base jumping and was not succesful. I think that it would take an organization such as the USPA to convince the NPS to allow base jumping. There is little chance of this happening because of the past incident in yosemite and the liability it would place on the USPA.
Isn't it wonderful when a few asshats ruin things for everyone?
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 04:43pm PT
|
Thats the way it always goes fet.
If rock climbing hadn't been invented until the '80s it wouldn't be allowed in the parks either.
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 04:44pm PT
|
Defineatly Ron. Thanks goodness for "grandfathered in".
|
|
pc
climber
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 05:20pm PT
|
That's a great story Darth. thx.
edit. Huh. What story?
|
|
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 05:59pm PT
|
Funny.
All this talk of landing in trees, parachuting in national parks etc...
Once when I was a smokejumper we got called to jump a fire in Lassen NP. The spotter chose a jump spot. Right next to it was a massive dead snag with huge dead arms. Obviously to be avoided at all costs. Out goes my buddy Jeff. It looked like the snag put some sort of suction beam on him. He steered directly into the thing and ended up hanging about 100 feet in the air from some dead limbs. Yikes! He rapped out (one carries 3/4 inch webbing for those circumstances) and walked away from it all.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 06:16pm PT
|
People who rap on 3/4" webbing are crazy.
They should be tased on the spot for their own safety.
|
|
elcap-pics
Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 06:25pm PT
|
After reading most of these posts... the more rational ones, not the name calling, I want to kick your ass ones, I have revised my opinion... While the Yeas have some good points, I am personally not convinced that it is a good idea, but perhaps, there could be a 6 month trial period where it is legalized, with some regulation. Then we could really see if the Nays or the Yeas prove to be correct. After 6 months it would reviewed and amended as necessary and be finalized. I don't really think the NPS will go for such an idea but it would be something to strive for, and might be considered if approached by the right people, in the right way.
From an earlier post... there is a very strong wind blowing from west to east in the valley for most of the spring and part of the summer. The "famous jumper" was unable to fly into it to make the meadow, not to mention even making the bridge. As soon as he opened he was blown hard to the east and lucky to land in the river and not the trees. He was uninjured and got out on his own... wish I could remember that guys name.......short guy, maybe Spanish....mmmmmm...or that other guy who opened late and hit at the base of the wall breaking his ankle... damn... who was that guy??.. he is a really good one too .... oh well... old age you know... weak mind... memory shot to hell...
|
|
Acer
Big Wall climber
AZ
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 04:08am PT
|
I think NPS did that trial period awhile back. We know where the rules are today.
My memory isn't perfect.
Continued BASE jumping especially with incidents will not help the cause.
Hueco tanks climbing has had a tough Access history.
Just an example of recreation where admin wanted it on way and rec people did it another. Almost total lock out for climbing. Still quit restricted.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 10:45am PT
|
When you outlaw jumping only outlaws will jump.
This shouldn't have been a stunning discovery for even a wannabe pirate.
(but I still suspect that it was a sporting hunt)
|
|
klk
Trad climber
cali
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 11:44am PT
|
If rock climbing hadn't been invented until the '80s it wouldn't be allowed in the parks either.
Ron's probably being slightly sarcastic, but he's probably correct.
It took decades of steady, hard work by the Sierra Club (at a time when the SC had a lot of pull and connections) to get the NPS to accept climbing in the Park. Lots of points where it could've gone south. Now, it's become an acknowledged historical-cultural practice, so it'd be really difficult for NPS to ban it completely.
When Jay Taylor's new book comes out this fall, you'll be able to see how close we came to having no climbing in the park. And we can all more easily imagine a future in which climbing is much more heavily regulated that it is today.
|
|
Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 11:55am PT
|
I wonder if the logic of using a taser is/was following:
Ordered to stop, the guy is running - failure to follow a lawful order.
Giving chase, the guy ain't going to stop so I am going to have to tackle him. Still may not cooperate once on the ground and I have no back up (now up to resisting arrest). We both could get injured or worse (tack on using force against a LEO).
Option - use the taser. Perp is taken down and incapacitated. Problem solved.
To be honest I can completely understand the logic. Where the problem comes in is at what level of crime should a taser be used? I am sure some would say anytime you run, you put yourself in a position to be zapped.
|
|
Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 12:01pm PT
|
If rock climbing hadn't been invented until the '80s it wouldn't be allowed in the parks either.
Ron's probably being slightly sarcastic, but he's probably correct.
Actually he is not being sarcastic. And I am pretty sure where Ron got that from was from a comment from a NPS Ranger from Yosemite who was asked during the Mountain Management Workshop in 1991 here in Salt Lake City "If rock climbing was a new sport would it be allowed in the Parks?" He said no it probably would not be.
Unfortunately, I can not remember who it was who said it as I would have to look through the bowels of my organizing notes (the workshop was a cooperative effort between the Access Fund and the Forest Service). That said I believe it was Armando Menocal who asked the question.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 12:49pm PT
|
If you want to read about gross misuse of tasers, the Robert Dziekanski incident at Vancouver airport in October 2007 is a graphic example - from Canada.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Dzieka%C5%84ski_Taser_incident
The resulting judicial enquiry came to the conclusion that Tasers were oversold, much less safe than claimed by the manufacturer, and misused - to put it politely.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 01:29pm PT
|
Does Lobo carry a toy one?
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 01:44pm PT
|
Choice Phaser:
One for Locker
|
|
Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 02:18pm PT
|
http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/death-of-teen-on-bike-shows-risks-of-expanded-use-of-tasers/1112106
"Late one night in October, a 17-year-old on a bike was chased by a police officer in a cruiser. When the boy refused to stop, the officer aimed his Taser out the driver's window and fired. The boy fell off the bike and the cruiser ran over him, killing him.
...
"Number 55 occurred in Bradenton one week before Victor's death. Police tried to stop him because he didn't have a light on his bicycle. When he ran, police hit him with a Taser. He died within 35 minutes."
Four days later, police in Panama City fired a Taser "at least twice" at a man who tried to conceal cocaine by swallowing it. He went into cardiac arrest and died."
"There is no question that Tasers frequently save lives by offering law enforcement officers a nonlethal means of stopping people who present a threat to the officers, the public or themselves. But as the four fatal cases from 2009 show, Tasers are also being used to subdue people who appear to pose no threat.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 02:40pm PT
|
Yeah.
The Chris Rock video is funny, but we need better paid and more professionally behaving police officers.
Bottom line; no threat, no darts. Cops need to stay in shape, and be held to a higher standard of behavior than the untrained civilian.
But Ammon may have been a special case if the rangers actually had Ted Nugent's improperly filled out hunting tag,..
|
|
Gregg Olson
Boulder climber
Moorpark, Ca
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 02:42pm PT
|
Ok... let me see if I have this "FatRad". You are saying they are not lethal unless there are pre-existing cardiac conditions or they are under the influence of drugs. How is the person on the delivering end supposed to know any of this ? How can you not see the fact that if there are more then one way to kill someone with a taser by accident or not means they are lethal ?? Wow.. The Gop convention in your name says it all.
Anyone that thinks an illegal base jump and an attempted run from "the Law" = even the smallest chance of death needs to check there moral compass. ( Im not saying you do FatRad, Im just saying).
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 02:48pm PT
|
Tasers have killed people with no medical conditions and not on drugs many times. They are less-lethal, not non-lethal.
They are better than a shot with a bullet, but since they can kill they shold be used as a last resort. Which is often not the case.
|
|
The Alpine
Big Wall climber
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 02:51pm PT
|
Bullets are only lethal if they hit you in certain spots...
|
|
Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 02:54pm PT
|
Beyond comical that the conservatives fall all over each other in their rush to line up behind authoritarianism, all the while ranting about liberty and tyranny, without the slightest sense of irony.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 03:02pm PT
|
Fatty, of course they do (carry them)
I'm with DMT on this; same consequnces as using a gun. Be glad they don't give cops throwing knves.....
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 03:03pm PT
|
Beyond comical that the conservatives fall all over each other in their rush to line up behind authoritarianism, all the while ranting about liberty and tyranny, without the slightest sense of irony.
Great post.
Liberty- it's not about civil rights, it's about not paying taxes!!
|
|
Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 03:05pm PT
|
Better start tazing all the jaywalkers...after all, by nature they're fleeing the scene of the crime.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 03:16pm PT
|
I wish I could buy tazing tags for litterbugs, especially people that toss cigarette butts. There should be a dedicated switch for them that gives a few extra jolts.
And we should be able to wear camo and lure them in with the smell of bacon.
|
|
Gregg Olson
Boulder climber
Moorpark, Ca
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 04:12pm PT
|
FatRad,
Just for the record. Within seconds after I had put in my first post above that included the line " you must be a good christian also " I decided to cut that bit out thinking that perhaps a new thread would be in order on that one. Not because I did not want to insult you. What are doing ?... hovering over this crap !! LOL. Oh and for the record it has been my personal experience that "some" practitioners of "most" kinds of "organized" religions are narrow minded self righteous, hypocritical, none thinking people that cant see the forest through the trees and can stand fast on a point of view, no matter how absurd it might be. Most Republicans have the same issue. Most republicans are "good christians" and some of your posts exhibit that mentality so I made the guess that you were a "good christian". But alas... You are a good Jewish man.... and to think that I thought you were the "Evil One".
Thanks for posting the Chris Rock link though... That was classic !!
|
|
Gregg Olson
Boulder climber
Moorpark, Ca
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 04:21pm PT
|
Ok.. but your still a Republican...I rest my case.
|
|
BASE
Big Wall climber
Cali
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 04:24pm PT
|
There IS video and witnesses of this account regarding the conduct and interaction with the rangers. The truth will come out in court. The New York Times will be writing an article about this situation and other past incidences of abuse from Yosemite rangers.
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 04:31pm PT
|
I hope that's the case, but with a name of just BASE and no BASE number I'll take that with a grain of salt.
|
|
atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 04:32pm PT
|
404 posts and not a single fact offered as to what happened. We don't have Ammon's version, or the officers. Why guess?
Because there are no facts, it is impossible to tell if the officers use of force was reasonable, or if the use of the taser was excessive force.
Its really that simple.
If Ammon was tasered just for BASE jumping, the use of force is excessive. If he resisted arrest the Taser use would be lawful to gain compliance, and overcome resistance.
Surely there is video of the incident. Anyone have any facts?
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 04:33pm PT
|
So when is the trial and are we all going to Fresno to watch?
Don't know if the Fed Court in Yose can handle this one.
Get our curiosity fix.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 04:34pm PT
|
It is obvious that Ammon did a crime and will now have to do the time.
Wonder if he will MAN up??
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 04:35pm PT
|
Now the question is did the ranger do something wrong?
Will he take his punishment and MAN up?
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 04:37pm PT
|
These will be separate cases.
One will not be dropped because of the other.
They will both have to face the music.
90% of more cases are handled without a trial or a big to do.
I bet that this one will not be as big as some of you want it to and we will never find out the WHOLE story.
|
|
Brunosafari
Boulder climber
OR
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 04:38pm PT
|
"Facts" are :
LEO propositions Ammon. Ammon says not interested in Smokey The Bear Style. ZAP!
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 04:40pm PT
|
I have no information on the event and won't comment. I will say that the mentality that I'll do something that is illegal because it should be legal may not be the best way to change policy, especially with the NPS.
|
|
atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 04:45pm PT
|
DMT, agreed, running away is not cause to be "shot", but under current federal and state law, it is a cause to be tasered. Thats cause use of a taser is not considered a use of deadly force. (Don't blame me, I am not a federal judge).
Facts I want to know:
Did the officer warn Ammon prior to the use of the taser that it would be used if he did not comply with officers commands?
Was there a struggle to get him cuffed?
I have never seen a case where the suspect was silently running away, and officers, with no warnings, used a taser to stop him from running.
The tough part of Ammon's case, if he chooses to go all the way with it, is that he has to clear himself of the criminal charges, prior to a court hearing the excesive force part. If he is convicted of resisting arrest, the conviction bars him from claiming excessive force. He could plead to the BASE jumping charge and still persue the civil rights violation, but a US attorney would have to offer that deal, which is unlikely if they know he wants to pursue a civil action.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 04:49pm PT
|
PitonRon: I wish I could buy tazing tags for litterbugs, especially people that toss cigarette butts. Second that - and I would add graffiti painters and other such scum to the list. And would happily taser them myself.
There's a saying amongst criminals: Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 04:53pm PT
|
Exactly
DMT, agreed, running away is not cause to be "shot", but under current federal and state law, it is a cause to be tasered. Thats cause use of a taser is not considered a use of deadly force. (Don't blame me, I am not a federal judge).
Facts I want to know:
Did the officer warn Ammon prior to the use of the taser that it would be used if he did not comply with officers commands?
Was there a struggle to get him cuffed?
I have never seen a case where the suspect was silently running away, and officers, with no warnings, used a taser to stop him from running.
The tough part of Ammon's case, if he chooses to go all the way with it, is that he has to clear himself of the criminal charges, prior to a court hearing the excesive force part. If he is convicted of resisting arrest, the conviction bars him from claiming excessive force. He could plead to the BASE jumping charge and still persue the civil rights violation, but a US attorney would have to offer that deal, which is unlikely if they know he wants to pursue a civil action.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 04:57pm PT
|
Anders,
wasn't it actually said by the TV character, Baretta, played by Robert Blake, who ironically didn't do the time?
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 05:00pm PT
|
"
Dingus Milktoast
Gym climber
Come on in boys, the water's fine!
Aug 31, 2010 - 01:34pm PT
Atch, imo running away in and of itself is not sufficient cause to be shot. I don't even agree its resisting arrest.
Let the rangers RUN!
DMT"
end quote
And all of this based on no information.
What's going on with you Dingus?
This is not like you.
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 05:06pm PT
|
Running away from a law enforcement officer is not resisting arrest like running away from a Tiger is not an action taken to avoid being eaten.
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 05:13pm PT
|
Hey John, I don't think DMT was making a case about Ammon's situation. I think he was making a case about generalities, such as when to use a taser, and what constitutes resisting arrest.
I think that Tasers should be used more judiciously, and a part of me thinks that running away is not really resisting arrest, but another part agrees that it is.
The part of me that thinks that running away from officers shouldn't be considered resisting arrest, is the part that has been tooled. Not as some think, because I was breaking any law, but instead simply because I worked in the park for the concession, and some rangers had a hard on for us. I was pulled over for doing 3 miles over the speed limit on a down hill. My speedometer said I was hitting the speed limit exactly. I am a very straight laced person, who rarely breaks any law except maybe jaywalking in the city, and speeding, plus the occasional california stop, but the ranger said he smelled marijauna and proceeded to strip search my car. He was on a power trip. I didn't do drugs. At that time I didn't even hardly drink. Maybe a beer or two on the weekends, but never while driving. That part of me that has been abused more then once by those on power trips is the part that thinks it shouldn't be considered resisting arrest when one runs, because that gives the arresting officer even more power.
But there is a part of me that understands that our representatives of the law need some authority. I just don't know where the balance point is. I
In regards to tasers, I definitely think that someone fleeing from a non violent crime, does not warrant being tased.
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 05:13pm PT
|
I have never seen a case where the suspect was silently running away, and officers, with no warnings, used a taser to stop him from running.
You need to read more then.
Because of this thread I read up on Tasers. Some scary incidents. Zapping kids. Zapping for over a minute and the person died. Zapping from multiple tasers at one time and the person died. Etc.
Like I said "LESS LETHAL". I think they should be treated like PR 24 (batons) a weapon, not the same class as a firearm, but one certainly capable of causing death.
And of course we're all commenting without the facts. This is the INTERNET! It's all 'mental speculation' as Werner would say.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 05:23pm PT
|
Dingus:
Don't need to watch videos. I think it was here in SoCal a prostate person was tasered several
times and died. Tasers have been extensively marketted to LE and even here in SB, as quiet a
place as we are, has bought tasers.
I think the use of tasers needs to be revisited at the Federal level and standards for LEO training
developed. That and the medical risks should all have been developed before introduction.
Before.
Period.
They were not.
Having said that the circumstances surrounding Ammons arrest are unknown. Until those
circumstances are known any objections we have to tasers as a LE modality need to be discussed
entirely unrelated to Ammon's arrest.
Period.
You have a long history of thoughtful discussion here. My props.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 05:35pm PT
|
Tasering would not pass FDA standards for a new medical treatment, which is what it amounts to. (Electroshock...) The company that makes them claims that those who've died as a result of taser misuse - generally young, healthy, males - mostly did so because they were in a state of "excited delirium". A state not otherwise known to medical science. They were quite upset when the judicial enquiry here in effect said that tasers were much more dangerous than advertised, and should be used with considerably greater caution.
The law of arrest is quite complex, not forgetting that the word comes from the French "arretez", which means "stop". Strictly speaking, a policeman has to identify himself as such, tell a person to stop, and (probably) physically restrain the person. The minimum restraint being a symbolic hand on the shoulder. One defence is to claim that you didn't know that the person was a policeman, or that he didn't say he was arresting you. Judges and juries tend to believe the police more than the accused. The "I didn't know" defence may not have a lot of credibility if you at any point were in earshot or eyesight, and all you did was run like hell. Particularly given the context.
"Don't do the crime if you can't do the time" probably goes back to the very first criminals, in Babylon or Egypt.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 05:41pm PT
|
Concept, yes.
Rhyming in english, no.
Another Blake irony; he vaunted to fame as a murderer in In Cold Blood.
The famous scene of remorse with the "crying light" was a lucky accident according to Oscar winning cinematographer Conrad Hall.
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 05:46pm PT
|
Let's just go back to the old standby.
A 12ga with an ounce of coarse rock salt.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 05:47pm PT
|
I bet that, whatever happened, this thing gets dropped quietly.
Then the real fun begins...
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 05:49pm PT
|
since when has failing to comply with a direct order from a LEO not resisting arrest, if he has declared that you are being placed under arrest?
Not sure the case law is settled on that point, but I'm fairly certain the DA would say that running away is resisting if you know or have reason to know you are being placed under arrest.
*no comment implied on Ammon's case.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 05:50pm PT
|
Fatty,
you don't have to throw water on the campfire. We're having way too much fun just wildly speculating.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 05:59pm PT
|
Really, facts will only get in our way...
He deserved it though, if he really was jumping while listening to John Denver and Reading Atlas shrugged, I'da shot him myself, anyone would....
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 06:02pm PT
|
if he really was jumping while listening to John Denver and Reading Atlas shrugged, I'da shot him myself, anyone would....
hahaha. I would have stood by to help you reload. that is "if" you missed.
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 06:05pm PT
|
Excited Delerium. Good name for an album.
|
|
Blakeb
Gym climber
Southern Oregon, behind her
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 06:42pm PT
|
blake irony? im sure this is about someone else important and this has gone right over my head.
So, fatty, pig lover, u know everything, so hypothetically, what if someone is running away, ie.. resisting arrest and has a backpack or a boulder pad on, so a tazer shot to the torso is not feasible, if the officer decided to shoot at your neck and head since the abdomen was covered, are they then doing something illegal??
keep speculating
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 06:45pm PT
|
How "aimable" (not amiable...) are tasers, and what is their range? I believe that the police are taught to shoot for the torso if they shoot at all, given that they're using handguns (not very accurate at any distance), and that if they use a gun, they're shooting to kill. It would be consistent to also train them to shoot for the torso with a taser.
|
|
JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 06:49pm PT
|
For US Court federal documents you can use www.pacer.gov (public access to court electronic records).
A criminal complaint was filed by the NPS for this case that outlines the facts and legal reasons for the charges against Ammon. This is a public document.
I can't/won't get involved on this forum as far as the reasons for the arrest and tasing of Ammon, the charges he faces, or the legalization of base jumping.
The case will go through the legal process, and a Federal Judge will review evidence and arguments including legal reasoning set forth by opposing parties or litigants to come to a decision which determines rights and obligations between the parties involved.
There will be a use of force review panel for the incident (as always).
MTucker posted the Use of Force Continuum for Law Enforcement. This is similar to the NPS standard.
Jesse McGahey
Climbing Ranger
Yosemite NP
|
|
MisterE
Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 06:51pm PT
|
Thanks for your post, Jesse - see you at Facelift!
|
|
neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 06:52pm PT
|
hey theresay, JesseM.... thanks for sharing with the folks here...
as always, things like this are hard for all involved...
god bless, to all...
:)
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 07:25pm PT
|
I tried the link that Jesse provided, but it looks like you have to be a subscriber (pay) to use it. I'd guess that most subscribers are lawyers, or people whose jobs require access, e.g. those who work in the police or court systems. Which means they're not likely to repost whatever is on that site, here.
To sum up:
1. There are still few known facts.
2. We haven't heard Ammon's side of the story, and aren't likely to, at least not here. (There could be other witnesses and evidence.)
3. There's no doubt that basejumping in the park, and from El Cap, is contrary to the CFR. Whether it should be legal, or permitted, is moot - it isn't.
4. Whether or not basejumping should be legal in Yosemite, it wasn't at the time Ammon is alleged to have jumped. It seems unlikely that he didn't know that, or the history of basejumping and law enforcement in the park. Likewise, attempting to escape/resisting arrest have never been legal.
5. Whether basejumping should be legalized or permitted in the park, and whether the police used excess zeal (surveillance) or force (taser) in arresting Ammon, are separate issues from what he did, although perhaps there is a constitutional rights issue.
6. We all want to express support of a fellow climber, right or wrong - but need to acknowledge that he may have been wrong, in the eyes of the law if not of the community.
7. It is within your rights to work to change the law. I don't know how that might be done, or whether it's possible, but suspect it would take considerable time and effort.
8. Commercialization and over-regulation of parks should be a concern for everyone.
|
|
atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 07:31pm PT
|
The complaints not up on PACER yet.
|
|
JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 07:37pm PT
|
Anders,
It's not that much,
"An access fee of $0.08 per page, as approved by the Judicial Conference of the United States, will be assessed for access to this service. For more information about CM/ECF, click here or contact the PACER Service Center at (800) 676-6856."
-from pacer.gov
|
|
klk
Trad climber
cali
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 08:44pm PT
|
thanks jesse.
let's see how many folks want to spend 8 cents a page.
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 08:51pm PT
|
Oakland Man Dies After Being Shocked By Taser In Jail
Posted: 5:52 pm PDT August 18, 2010
DUBLIN, Calif. -- A 50-year-old Oakland man being held in Santa Rita Jail has died after being shocked twice by a Taser during a fight with deputies.
Sheriff's spokesman Sgt. J.D. Nelson says Martin Harrison died in a hospital about 5 a.m. Wednesday.
Harrison had been hospitalized since Monday night after the fight in the jail's minimum security area.
Nelson says Harrison was shocked by a Taser by one deputy, then shocked a second time when he charged the deputy and other deputies came to help out.
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 09:12pm PT
|
yes, don't run, or they take you felony style,
and we all know what that means, a little elevator ride at the station,
their fists like matured hams for pounding your brisket,
i'm moving to Germany. seems safer over there.
OK, name this old police show,
winner gets a free refer.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 09:54pm PT
|
Is it a Felony or Misdemeanor to resist arrest or flee?
California = Penal Code 148 PC resisting arrest law is a misdemeanor.
Colorado = 18-8-103. Resisting arrest. = is a misdemeanor
Arizona = 13-2508. Resisting arrest; classification = Felony
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 10:16pm PT
|
I have no personal knowledge as to the correctness of this source. Also it does not
discuss interactions with a Federal Officer.
http://www.ehow.com/about_6134557_definition-resisting-arrest.html
The Definition of Resisting Arrest
By Aura Talbott, eHow Contributor
updated: March 28, 2010
Resisting arrest can have serious consequences.
Being arrested is upsetting, whether you've committed a crime or not. It can be tempting
to resist arrest, but that's not something you should ever do. Resisting arrest can lead
to additional criminal charges, and it places you and the arresting officers in greater danger.
Definition of Resisting Arrest
Resisting arrest is defined as any attempt or effort to refuse or prevent a lawful arrest.
An arrest is considered lawful as long as the arresting officer follows proper police
procedure when making the arrest.
Actions That Constitute Resisting Arrest
Resisting arrest can include arguing with the arresting officer; struggling, fighting or
resisting when being handcuffed or placed in a patrol car; running away from the crime
scene; physically assaulting an officer; or brandishing a deadly weapon, whether or not
it is used. Resisting arrest without violence is a misdemeanor charge. Resisting arrest in
a violent way is a felony.
Grounds For Arrest
An officer can make an arrest if she has an arrest warrant, witnesses a crime being
committed or has probable cause to believe the person she is arresting has been
involved in a crime.
When an Arrest Occurs
If you are arrested, do not attempt to argue, flee or physically resist being taken into
custody. If it is determined that you are innocent, you will not have to worry about
facing charges for resisting arrest. If you are guilty, resisting arrest will only add to
your list of charges.
Know Your Rights
If you are arrested, you cannot be charged with resisting arrest if you refuse to speak
to the arresting officer. The right to remain silent is a constitutional right. If you are
interrogated after your arrest, you have the right to have a lawyer with you during
the interrogation. Cooperating with law enforcement officers during an arrest, regardless
of your guilt or innocence, is the best strategy.
http://www.ehow.com/about_5438461_penalties-resisting-arrest.html
Penalties for Resisting Arrest
By Jorge Pena, eHow Contributor
updated: September 21, 2009
If you have been charged with a crime, it is important that you comply with the
arresting police officers commands. Failure to do so--even when you reasonably
believe the arrest is unlawful--may result in additional penalties other than the
crime for which you are being arrested. Many states create a special crime for
resisting such arrests and have specific penalties attached to these crimes.
California
There are two types of resisting arrest convictions in California and thus there
are two different types of penalties for each conviction. A person can be convicted
of either misdemeanor resisting arrest or felony resisting arrest. The misdemeanor
offense can be punished for up to one year in jail and suffer a fine of up to $1,000.
The felony offense can be punished for up to three years in prison. Prison is not the
same thing as jail. A jail is typically less heavily guarded than prison and is designed
to house inmates who have been charged with a less serious offense. There is also
the potential for more freedom of movement and greater privileges in a jail.
|
|
Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 10:41pm PT
|
Doc
77 Sunset Strip?
|
|
neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 11:12pm PT
|
hey there say... as to the old tv pic.... i think i am recognizing howard duff... but i never saw the show, so i don't know a title...
say, jstan (hope i remembered who posted this arrest info--will edit, if i got it wrong)...
well, i wanted to say this (though we all know about the "running" issue, now):
very sadly so, folks that have certain seizures CAN and will wander, and will not be responsive to an officer's (or anyone elses) commands to stop... very sadly, they will keep on moving, and if approached when having a these type of seizures, they WILL get scared and run... or, in worse cases, even try to fight back--when, if left alone for about:
three minutes---the seizure WOULD pass, and they'd slowly start becoming alert again...
EDIT:
and being NOT GUILTY of any crime, would not be supposed to even be
arrested... though, they may need someone to sit with them, til they fully recover their bearing... or call a friend...
many sad terrible things have happened to these folks, as to taser's, and such, all due to the brain-disorder (these were folks who were no danger to hurting someone, but---yes, they could possibly get hurt themselves, due to their surroundings:
but---the precious three minutes or so that they need, are NOT common knowledge in many police circles...
**just throwing all this in, so folks on either side, can learn...
hard times for all, and there have been deaths due to this, too, sadly,
well, one other thing, just sharing so folks will know:
long time back (perhaps still, in some areas) deaf folks have had terrible times, as to arrest, due to not hearing what an issue is about... some, too, from old days of lack of communication (as this is trying to be addresses more, these days) folks WOULD panic, and run, not trusting that they'd have any rights or anyone to speak for them, or, to even tell them what was going on (the old days, as i said---but in some towns, you'd be surprised how unlearned folks are as to how to help deal with someone who can't hear)...
also, i am not sure (this may or may not be true) but i think? i heard a ways back, that deaf folks were not to be handcuffed behind their back, due to the fact they could not communicate AT ALL then...
very bad if an innocent man or woman was arrested, and thus, would panic...
well, this does not apply to ammon, and all this, but since so much info is
being shared here, as to RUNNING:
i just thought, that the element of panic, needed to be brought up,
as SADLY folks panic and run... (though, yes, i do understand that folks can panic and thus get violent, too---especially drunks--who at the time, may feel quite innocent and picked on)...
well, it seems, from what i've read here:
i reckon one of the BEST things to pass on to others, is:
please don't run.... :O
(though, as i said, this will not work-out for someone that is suffereing an
epileptic seizure)...
well, carry on...
edit: say, dr. sprock.. the TV show is:
i will post the initianls:
F. S.
so someone else can try for your win... :))
all i need is a salute that "i know how to use the old search engine,
as to OLDER tv actors's work"
:))
|
|
Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 11:29pm PT
|
that video footage was a bit too much like Footloose.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 11:29pm PT
|
Good dicussion neebee.
I was riding in the Mohonk truck once when Thom Scheuer saw something happening that should not have. He said, "I'll come back later after they have had some fun and arrest them."
Neebee is on target. The arresting officer always has to try and guess the person's frame of mind as it affects their probable reaction to arrest. I am guessing here but I think it possible one who has just based the Captain will be adrenalated.
I think good officers, like Thom definitely was, have a handle on this.
|
|
tooth
Trad climber
The Best Place On Earth
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2010 - 11:59pm PT
|
Checked out Taser's website. They have shotgun shells now that shoot 4 prongs into you and then the thing opens up and puts even more into the victim.
Those could be used on someone 1-2 pitches up! Handy when they find someone on Sickle without a permit to climb, just shoot and then leave the guy dangling at the end of his rope - no need to put in jail.
How far will they take it with the new toys Taser is coming out with?
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
Weld_it
Trad climber
Chatsworth
Aug 31, 2010 - 08:50pm PT
I heard he had a nife on him.
Basers have to carrry a knife - right. They need it to cut the chute away if it fouls.
It would be risky not to have a knife - I would think.
With a knife there is no risk.
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
i was thinking the same thing, only different,
he was folding up his chute, the cops told him to drop the chute,
he refuses, so they tazer the guy, pure speculation of course,
hey, open forum, to a degree,
now i am pissed at Ammon,
every time i go to the ditch, instead of thinkin ansel adams fake pics, i will be thinkin tazer,
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
that's it. i've had it with the ss curry company.
i am running for president of yosemite this novenmber.
remember to vote early, and vote often.
|
|
BASE1430
climber
Cadyville, NY
|
|
This is an attack on the liberty of a group of people who choose to live in a way that is not understood. The liberty of others should not be regulated as long as it doesn't endanger another persons liberty. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I wish to pursue happiness by taking my liberty to risk my life!
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
It should be remembered that "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" is not even from the Constitution but from the Declaration of Independence.
For over two and a third centuries we've been adding fine print.
We are now at the point where even lawyers can't know ALL the laws.
How could civilians?
Perhaps not a coincidence that the US now imprisons more humans than any country in the history of the world.
|
|
neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
|
|
hey there say, dr. sprock... oh my.... thanks for thinking of me, but say, just some simple "cowpie/manure" for the ol' roses, would have been fine... oh my.... :O
you see:
i'm more of a two shots of scotch, if i want to feel a buzz... never needed the other plant stuff... :)
howard duff, was the best clue... :) *am an old time movie gal, here, but still--even then, i have to do a yahoo-search if i can't place a face...
*never watch crime shows though---was surpirsed no one else got the title...
say, scared silly... i am off to go check your links you here...
thanks...
:)
|
|
neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
|
|
hey there all... say, aside from ammon, at the moment...
here is an interesting bit of news from scotland:
NEWS.scotsman.com:
Epileptic seizures warning to police over tasersPremium Article !
Date: 06 February 2010
USING a taser on someone with epilepsy could cause them to suffer a seizure, campaigners have warned.
Epilepsy Scotland has questioned whether police officers have had the training to properly identify seizures in people who seem unresponsive, intoxicated or aggressive.
Chief executive Lesslie Young said: "Without appropriate training, police officers at the very least could unnecessarily hurt someone with the taser just before, during or after a seizure when the individual is unable to respond. At worst, discharging a taser may potentially trigger a seizure in either a person with well-controlled epilepsy or someone who never had a seizure until 50,000 volts of electricity from a taser hits them."
Epilepsy Scotland is calling on police across Scotland to ensure adequate epilepsy training is available to their staff. The proposed introduction of tasers confirms again that awareness training for all operational staff is essential, it said
the reason that i share it:
as, it is always good and needed for those in law enforment, as well as health care, to KNOW what seizures are and who the behavorior DIFFERS from the behavorior of those with INTENT to harm...
as always, hours of training, and observing etc, is needed, but it can mean safety for citizens and officers as well, and stop unjust dangerous situations in many cases, perhaps far more than one realizes...
well, back to main topic now...
:)
edit:
*you can read a lot on this, if you do a search for:
seizure awarenss and tasers...
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
Wow, five hundred posts of speculation, yet nobody is willing to spend eight cents a page, as Jesse suggests, to see what The Man has to say about Ammon, and get some factual information?
"There will be a use of force review panel for the incident (as always)."
"Look, it's the El Cap Pirate!"
"Get him!"
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
The last mention I saw about Pacer said the document is not yet up.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
Eye witness studies have shown that they are rarely reliable.
Even when witnesses see the exact same thing, their stories are different on the stand.
In the heat of the moment with split second reactions...............
The Government had said NO BASE!!
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
There is a document that determines what "Fine" is given to certain crimes or infractions to the rules.
"BAIL SCHEDULE"
National Park Regulations are under Title 36 of the Code of Federal Regulations.
36 CFR
Breaking these laws is a misdemeanor but the LEOs have the option of using State law as well.
The "Bail Schedule" is determined by the Federal Judge overseeing the jurisdiction.
Sometimes it is money.
Sometimes it is mandatory court appearances.
Sometimes it is arrest.
Some guide lines for arrest is public safety, crime prevention, criminal flight, evidence protection.
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
|
|
I wish to pursue happiness by taking my liberty to risk my life!
not ok if you do so by driving the hwy at 150mph, would you agree?
if so, you agree at least in principle that laws can be made that restrict activities SOME people might otherwise choose to enjoy? and that the individual cannot simply decide to disregard said laws without risk of consequence to oneself?
pretty simple really.
maybe this thread would be better served if it were just about tasing, or just about the fact BASE jumping is not allowed in the park...
|
|
BASE1361
climber
Yosemite Valley National Park
|
|
Matt the problem with your analogy is that driving on the HWY at 150mph involves innocent people in close proximity.
BASE jumping has only injured and killed ONE person. The jumper.
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
|
|
i agree- to a degree.
however, what's right about my analogy still stands.
and since we don't have an opt-in system where we all just follow only those laws we agree with...
|
|
Sheik aka JD
Trad climber
Los Angeles
|
|
A few anecdotes...
I've hung with the Brothers McNeely. They can get crazy. Good people though.
Once I was at the base of Half Dome at o-dark-thirty, getting ready for a climb, when the sound of falling refrigerators came screaming down the wall. We thought for sure we were dead from rockfall. After diving into the boulders and bushes we looked up and saw two frikkin' BASE jumpers in flight suits go whipping by. Pretty cool, until I felt the pain in my twisted ankle and had to hobble miles of terrain back to camp. That sucked. The rangers did eventually help though, with crutches, a horse, first aid, and a minimal insurance bill.
My family, close friends and I once fought a significant police brutality case. One rarely wins in that situation...false charges that typically get bargained into a plea (even if you did nothing wrong; it's often easier to take the plea bargain), time, money, physical pain, punitive damages, you against the system, etc. That sucked.
|
|
HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
|
|
Perhaps not a coincidence that the US now imprisons more humans than any country in the history of the world.
Not quite. At least not yet.
That great bastion of Civil Rights and Democracy, The People's Republic of China is very likely way ahead of us. Even though they don't publish their numbers.
I believe we're #2
We're trying hard to be #1 'cause we always gotta be #1
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
Wrong.
Used to be the Soviet Union.
China ain't no bed of roses, but most of its people are subjugated by social circumstance.
|
|
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
|
|
Just to clarify re pacer- it's the federal court's electronic filing system. No case, no document. A police report wouldn't be there. I checked and there is nothing current showing for Mr. McNeely.
Please continue to speculate wildly.
|
|
HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
|
|
Ron
I stand (or rather sit) corrected.
Inmates per 100,000 population
USA: 748
Russia: 600
Brazil: approx 220
Britain: approx 150
China: approx 120
Canada: approx 110
France: approx 90
Germany: approx 80
Japan: approx 60
"There are over 4,000 Federal crimes, and many times that number of regulations that carry criminal penalties"
The Economist 24 July 2010
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
I was talking overall, although those stats support my claim.
It is due to the drug laws, which originated mostly out of racism.
Although prisons are a growth industry it is a black hole worse than gambling rendering our country less efficient and handicapping our ability to compete in a world economy.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
I said "originated".
First it was opium/heroin because the chinese liked it.
Then cocaine because blacks liked it.
Then alcohol. That didn't work out because white people liked it too much.
Sooooo, 1934 saw out of work federal agents. Instant fix; ban marijuana, again it is the choice of cheap laborers (this time mexicans).
|
|
Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
|
|
It has nothing to do with racism.
Jeff, it may not have much to do with racism at the point of arrest (although there are many who would dispute that), but it has a great deal to do with racism at the fundamental level.
Just one example is your comment about lower recidivism rates among whites. Don't you think it's easier to avoid returning to jail if the socioeconomic community you come from is the one which, because of racism, is the wealthy, educated one?
|
|
Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
|
|
That's right High Traverse - we are #1! GO USA! :)
edit: BTW, you can even compare counts and USA is number one. Pretty amazing isn't it? Pretty costly too.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
First it was opium/heroin because the chinese liked it. It was also widely used in other communities, for medical or pseudo-medical purposes. Pretty much an all-purpose sedative and painkiller, to which many became addicted.
|
|
pc
climber
|
|
Sorry for the off topic rant...
Sh#t, If we're putting that many people away we might as well figure out how to benefit from it. Treat it as a "natural resource". Build giant hamster wheels, stick'em in, and make them generate power.
And please, let's streamline and add offenses to the death penalty. Rape, child molestation, violence with a weapon, etc. Zero lifespan for rapists, molesters, and violent criminals.
$.02,
pc
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
Yes MH, but it was perceived as asian.
Turn of the twentieth century a tenth of the entire adult population used cocaine daily.
It was in Coca-cola.
|
|
HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
|
|
The Economist article on 24 July should be required reading. Why the numbers are so large; the trivial offenses that can get you put away for a Long Time; the cost to society in $$ and personal/family hardship (which of course is immaterial to many legislators); and much better alternatives.
What's this got to do with Tasering Ammon?
To my feeble mind, it's a gross overreaction to the seriousness of the offense. You mean the Yos Guns couldn't have intercepted Ammon when he tried to leave the valley? There are only three paved ways out. Or did they think he'd get back in his bat suit and fly? Perhaps he'd have marched out over Vogelsang and Dononue passes? Or cross country over the high peaks? Did he have a car in the valley they could have impounded? Suppose he got away? There'd be a Criminal loose in our midst?
I'm not excusing the BASE jump. It's illegal and Ammon likely knew it.
Certainly we are just hypothesizing about Ammon and I give him no excuses IF he was "resisting arrest". I also give the Yos Guns no excuses for tasing him in the back of the neck. IF that's true (which apparently it is). Better training in use of proportional force is indicated.
|
|
Barbarian
Trad climber
The great white north, eh?
|
|
"Prisons are a growth industry"
So true. The AZ Governor's friends stand to make a pretty penny on the incarceration of illegals.
|
|
SoyAnarchisto
Boulder climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
Really was hoping to see some facts after ~500 posts...
|
|
Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
|
|
The Yos Leo's have been hassling Ammon for years, they knew exactly who he was when they tasered the sh#t out of him...
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
ust to clarify re pacer- it's the federal court's electronic filing system. No case, no document. A police report wouldn't be there. I checked and there is nothing current showing for Mr. McNeely.
Please continue to speculate wildly.
Statute of Limitations.
They probably have a year to charge a misdemeanor and 7 years to prosecute a felony.
Big felonies don't have limits.
|
|
tomtom
Social climber
Seattle, Wa
|
|
Speaking of BULLSH#T and WRONG ...
Why do climbers like TONY BIRD TRASH El Cap? Why to you desecrate the rock you climb? Rangers have to risk their lived to clean climber's garbage and sh#t you left at Camp 6 of the Nose.
Why do you do nothing about this?
|
|
corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
|
|
Could anyone confirm the rumor that the Taser used on Ammon was retrofitted
with the Taser Cam?
Maybe we'll see his take down on Youtube one of these days.
Ammon's helmet cam recording would be of interest also.
http://shop.fortresstactical.com/TASER-Cam-p/cam.htm
Technical Specs TASER® - CAM $459
* Records approximately 1.5 hours of audio and MPEG4 video
* Uses infrared light to record when in complete darkness
* Rechargeable - powers the complete TASER
* Storage bay carries a spare cartridge
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
Could anyone confirm the rumor that the Taser used on Ammon was retrofitted
with the Taser Cam?
Really expecting to get info like that??
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
"96% of Officers were exonerated by video."
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
500
When the REAL info is released. I bet there will be another 500 post thread in ONE day.
|
|
MisterE
Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
|
|
To my feeble mind, it's a gross overreaction to the seriousness of the offense. You mean the Yos Guns couldn't have intercepted Ammon when he tried to leave the valley? There are only three paved ways out. Or did they think he'd get back in his bat suit and fly? Perhaps he'd have marched out over Vogelsang and Dononue passes? Or cross country over the high peaks? Did he have a car in the valley they could have impounded? Suppose he got away? There'd be a Criminal loose in our midst?
Hey, High Traverse, you need to come down for some air.
People (not necessarily Ammon) can hide out for weeks or months within the valley, and find all sorts of ways to get out unseen.
Your logic is faulty.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
Any Lawyer much less a "Good Lawyer" would slap you around for talking on the radio about your crime.
Guess he doesn't have a lawyer yet.
|
|
Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
|
|
wow, thanks for the link.
|
|
Fishy
climber
Zurich, Switzerland
|
|
Said he was walking away when they fired...
A small but key difference in wording from Bullwinkle's description above.
|
|
Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
|
|
Turn of the twentieth century a tenth of the entire adult population used cocaine daily.
It was in Coca-cola.
i've always found that interesting. i don't think coca-cola ever lost its place in the public heart after they took the coca out.
|
|
Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
|
|
He also mentions the Rangers didn't identify themselves.
Gunna be his word against theirs in court...
|
|
pc
climber
|
|
This whole thread is a very bad idea. Frickin' "eyewitnesses" talking here about what they saw? Stupid. Not to mention Ammon himself on radio. Sheesh. Someone pull the plug.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
Has anybody put up a route called Tazed And Confused?
|
|
originalpmac
Mountain climber
Anywhere I like
|
|
i would love to taze Jacobs or any of those other nazi bastards.
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
I was a bit surprised that Ammon decided to go on the radio. If he has a lawyer, my guess is the guy is just rolling his eyes.
Best to keep one's mouth shut with things like this.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
Lots of rolling eyes on this one.
|
|
Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
|
|
Just to clarify re pacer- it's the federal court's electronic filing system. No case, no document. A police report wouldn't be there. I checked and there is nothing current showing for Mr. McNeely.
Please continue to speculate wildly.
police reports are public record. they may not want to release them but they have to. rangers acting as police should have something on file at valley headquarters. you want to undertake a good lead, walk in there and ask for it.
tomtom--that's an interesting name, kinda like jay walker
Why do climbers like TONY BIRD TRASH El Cap? Why to you desecrate the rock you climb? Rangers have to risk their lived to clean climber's garbage and sh#t you left at Camp 6 of the Nose.
a little reading comprehension, please. i've never had the pleasure of visiting camp 6. how do you derive that from:
if camp 6 has become such a damn pigsty, why isn't it a major project for facelift? i frankly don't think it should be the rangers' job to be doing that for climbers. cleaning up after ourselves used to be part of our ethic.
¡ma-donna ...
i don't have 46 minutes to spend listening to a lot of cool-cool radio talk to pull out the gist. anyone care to synopsize that?
sometimes cases get tried in the public forum before they come to court. some lawyers don't recommend that, others do a good job with it--depends on the lawyer, the circumstances and the chances they want to take.
fattrad seems like a nice enough fellow, but his approach to public action is a lot like chief's on the other side of the range, "trust me" and the good old boys will get it done for you, except you might have to wait a very long time. i've seen it a little different, and my faith is in a good system which will atrophy if we don't continue to exercise the rights which are ours.
|
|
Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
|
|
must reiterate: Lame.
|
|
ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
California
|
|
I already know the rangers are planning on lying about what happened, I have nothing to hide (unlike them), so I feel like I can talk as much as I want. Their edited version of video isn't the only video out there.
Tom, you sure do have a lot of opinions on something you have no clue about.
I will state that I was tased unnecessarily and feel confident that it can be proved.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
Give a man enough rope and he will hang himself.
Already admitted to breaking the law on the RADIO.
Case Closed.
I already know the rangers are planning on lying about what happened, I have nothing to hide (unlike them), so I feel like I can talk as much as I want. Their edited version of video isn't the only video out there.
Tom, you sure do have a lot of opinions on something you have no clue about.
I will state that I was tased unnecessarily and feel confident that it can be proved.
|
|
couchmaster
climber
pdx
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 3, 2010 - 06:07pm PT
|
2nd post. I'd go with Fattrads advice Pirate. We all, all of us, wish you well and most of us are tired of living in a society where we can be so easily misled, controlled, spied on, and manipulated by the authorities.
BTW, little more of a rant - rant...this bullshit where the police get to steal your stuff is just wrong. Wrong!
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
Now to the second case.
EVERYONE that is arrested tells a different story and CLAIMS abuse.
42 usc 1983 cases are very rare.
Better start getting all your dirt bag buddies to fund your campian.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
BTW, little more of a rant - rant...this bullshit where the police get to steal your stuff is just wrong. Wrong!
It is called evidence. Cops get to hold onto it.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
Ammon, you act like a child.
"I broke the law using my toys."
"I am so bummed they took my toys."
Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.
Not like you are the first to have their Base gear taken.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
Revenge is supposedly best eaten cold.
As a lawyer, I strongly advise Ammon to talk about what happened and the aftermath only with a) his lawyer, and b) under oath in court. It may be galling not to get your side of the story out, and not to talk about it with friends, but if there's any defence at all, it's in your best interests. One of the first steps of any competent defence lawyer is to tell the client to STFU.
It is very risky to say things like: "I already know the rangers are planning on lying about what happened". Whether or not they did, proving it to a judge's satisfaction in a court isn't easy. Such statements, if made in court, are likely privileged - but not outside court. Add a name to such a statement, and you may find yourself on the receiving end of a civil action for defamation. An action where your testimony can probably be compelled.
It's kind of Ammon's friends to come to his support, but again, anything that is said here can and will be used against him, at least in sentencing. Let's say he is convicted, and they're discussing the sentence. The police or the prosecutor might print out and present this thread, for the judge to understand the context of what happened, and to "prove" that base jumpers are an out-of-control menace to all right-thinking citizens, and the park.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
Here is some more info for the Pirate.
Watch your Libel and Slander be use against you in court.
You know it from American Society and TV.
“You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to speak to an attorney….”
So when the sentence is handed down (Fine, probation, banned from national parks, ETC) will you break the law again and probation??
Can you handle being kicked out of Yosemite for a few years??
You already can't handle them taking the "EVIDENCE".
|
|
ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
California
|
|
You guys are hilarious! Like I said, I have nothing to hide. I’ve already admitted to the rangers that I jumped off El Cap. Yep, I broke the law and will deal with the consequences.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
I want to see this shaky video shot in low light. Like this mysterious video caught everything.
Was there a camera being used by a bro to put on YouTube or a touron?
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
This will still be interesting for a while.
Chongo incident = climbers lied in court for their own
Ammon incident = climbers claim Rangers lie too
The rift continues. 50 years of Yosemite tradition is alive and well.
|
|
pc
climber
|
|
Mtucker, What is your problem?
|
|
Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
|
|
He's a Tool, that's his problem. . .
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
Mt.phucker is a known quantity.
The pirate is apparently channelling Tobin and leading with a rope tied around his neck.
Very impressive.
|
|
Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
|
|
the law may also have been broken by whoever used a taser. tasering is a violent act. such acts are inherently criminal unless they are done with good cause.
an internal investigation is not the same as a criminal investigation. i suggest mr. mcneely investigate the laws and policies which pertain and consider bringing criminal charges if he believes criminal activity took place.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
I have been waiting for that one. You guys are slow on the draw. I truly expect so much more.
Nope, I am just a jilted lover.
He stole my girl and she left with no word. She still has never confessed.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
He can only do the civil route. And it is only "preponderance of the evidence" as burden of proof. Like more than %50.
The government has to do the criminal part. But they will need him as a witness.
Burden of proof for the fed is "beyond a reasonable doubt"
|
|
Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
|
|
not true, tucker. if you believe a crime has been committed, you can lodge a criminal complaint and it must be followed up on. it isn't something to be taken lightly, but it's the right of every citizen. law enforcement people are not immune to the laws they are entrusted to uphold.
if you think the government itself is involved in a crime, there are certain avenues open, such as the standing grand jury. things get tricky with overlapping jurisdictions, but the primary responsibility for law enforcement lies with every county sheriff. in some counties in the u.s., sheriffs have been known to tell meddling feds, such as ATF officers, to get out.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
I'm reminded of what Oscar Wilde said of fox hunting: The pursuit of the inedible by the unspeakable.
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
Speaking with the media or publicly about this incident is not in Ammons' best interest. The best thing for him to do, and his friends, is SHUT UP.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
You can hardly open a news paper around the country without a "Bad Cop" story in it.
Tony Tony,
The Sheriff and his department are paid for by tax dollars. They are part of the government. They are included in the "Tool" academy. They can be and are just as bad as any other.
Cops at any level are not above the law but there are lots of laws and protections on their side. Like I said, SUCCESSFUL law suits against them are rare.
Sure, regular people can make a complaint with a Grand Jury. But an indictment gets kicked over to the courts and the local government authorities. Part of the local cops job is to work with and for the "County Attorney’s Office" for evidence collection and other duties.
Grand juries are not the easiest to get to or work with. Few states have grand juries at the county level.
As the saying goes "Grand Juries with indict a ham sandwich"
What happens to those sandwiches? DAs and such can do what ever.
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
don't forget that besides the criminal part, Ammon can certainly sue in a civil suit, against the stupid taser smuck only.
thats why if you pop someone robbing your house, their family can still sue you, even if he broke the law.
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
for what?
copping a feel on a nude sun bather?
|
|
Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
|
|
the law isn't protecting them, tucker. only custom. custom isn't easy to change and it's actually more powerful than the law. custom begins with you and me.
you're talking like a lawyer. are you one? lawyers are always talking about probabilities and they don't generally encourage people to stand for their rights against apparently tough odds. they are the voice of the status quo.
this all changes, of course, when there's a great deal of money involved. i suspect ammon has spent most of his on his BASE equipment, now confiscated. if he has resources, however, very clever lawyers could suddenly develop amazing fits of imagination.
those of us who must find our way outside of this lopsided process must begin by educating ourselves about our own rights. often we have to stand for them largely on our own. i won a pretty good case for myself in court once doing just that--if i had listened to my lawyer i'd have probably spent the rest of my life as a puppydog on a leash. we have a good system, a very good system. a bad cop will be afraid of it if it's brought to play against him.
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
Revenge is supposedly best eaten cold.
As a lawyer, I strongly advise Ammon to talk about what happened and the aftermath only with a) his lawyer, and b) under oath in court.Italic Text It may be galling not to get your side of the story out, and not to talk about it with friends, but if there's any defence at all, it's in your best interests. One of the first steps of any competent defence lawyer is to tell the client to STFU.
It is very risky to say things like: "I already know the rangers are planning on lying about what happened". Whether or not they did, proving it to a judge's satisfaction in a court isn't easy. Such statements, if made in court, are likely privileged - but not outside court. Add a name to such a statement, and you may find yourself on the receiving end of a civil action for defamation. An action where your testimony can probably be compelled.
It's kind of Ammon's friends to come to his support, but again, anything that is said here can and will be used against him, at least in sentencing. Let's say he is convicted, and they're discussing the sentence. The police or the prosecutor might print out and present this thread, for the judge to understand the context of what happened, and to "prove" that base jumpers are an out-of-control menace to all right-thinking citizens, and the park.
This bears repeating.
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
you guys may as well do the strawberry shortcake,
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
Oh good lord...
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
She didn't even say 3...2...1...C YA!
|
|
elcap-pics
Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
|
|
Pirate... yeah you are so right and I have stated almost every time I have posted that I don't have a clue. Interesting speculating though since for 500 posts NO ONE knew anything, not just me! I and almost everyone else here wishes you the best of luck in the courts. I have posted several times but with one theme... sorry you got caught jumping... the penalty is much to harsh... but if you resisted arrest then you got what you earned, being tased, but if you didn't, then, if you can afford it, take the tasers to court and get some $$$$ for your suffering. I think a lot of the posts here that were intended to support base jumping have done more harm than good.
That said... STOP POSTING HERE AS IT WILL DO YOU NO GOOD IN COURT.
I also hope you will not be personally offended that some of your friends do not think base jumping in the park is something that should be "legalized".... nothing to do with you or your situation. As I have also clearly stated... nothing I know of has so little value as my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt.
Best of luck man....
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
"ammon jumped, the rangers wanted to stop him as he walked away in the dark, and they tased him."
Steph Davis - Twitter
http://twitter.com/highsteph
|
|
Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
|
|
Cops at any level are not above the law but there are lots of laws and protections on their side. Like I said, SUCCESSFUL law suits against them are rare.
The pigs tend to get away with their illegal actions and activities.
Isn't that special.
|
|
justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
|
|
@ Steph Davis ^^^
It was too annoying to watch more than 60 seconds of it. For the love of god.
DELETE!
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
Ammon "He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named" McNeely
|
|
bmacd
climber
Relic Hominid
|
|
I couldn't watch it all either, 50 bucks sez Steph's gonna be the next tazzing victim in the valley.
I thot I knew how to make a fool of myself
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
I agree with both Dave and Jim on this issue; currently not the best idea to allow jumping in the Valley.
Can there be select jumping days like at the New River Gorge? That is a much smaller bridge jump and the area has a longer history with jumping but can this be organized?
I love watching the evolution of sport before our eyes. No surprise regulations would enter the picture. Those people must be crazy! We must stop them!
Our generation is witnessing an amazing array of human evolution and sport. So glad climbers don't have to jump through so many hoops to do their thing. We really do have a lot of freedom.
|
|
Pennsylenvy
Gym climber
A dingy corner in your refrigerator
|
|
Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO Sep 3, 2010 - 08:07pm PT
Cops at any level are not above the law but there are lots of laws and protections on their side. Like I said, SUCCESSFUL law suits against them are rare.
The pigs tend to get away with their illegal actions and activities.
Isn't that special.
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona Sep 3, 2010 - 04:57pm PT
He can only do the civil route. And it is only "preponderance of the evidence" as burden of proof. Like more than %50.
The government has to do the criminal part. But they will need him as a witness.
Burden of proof for the fed is "beyond a reasonable doubt"
Hammer meet nail. Fatrad why do you wish MTucker delete his posts? A) Because it provides an in depth look at corruption within the/your system? B) He is a complete troll/Idiot? Or C, please explain.........
|
|
MisterE
Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
|
|
I don't care what the laws are, I don't care what the rules are
Nice, Steph. That is a great way to make it better.
As much as I support Ammon's jump, I gotta go with Fattrad and Anders on this one.
STFU until you have talked to your lawyer and/or been to court.
What a trainwreck.
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
Ditto. I'm all for being a rebel but there's something about what they show on TV about the importance of lawyering up.
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
That explains a lot.
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
don't they have tv in prison?
me and bubba had frickin cable in the downstairs basement during the 30 day lockdown,
the most monogamous relationship i ever had was in the joint, me and bubba, down there together, just us, for thirty fun packed days,man, i miss the good ol days, three hots and a cot, and bubba was hot alright, every damn night, it was real tight,
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
Hey Doc, save them stories for the other campfire.
How's the summer been with El Nino and all? True to form up here.
|
|
ß Î Ø T Ç H
climber
|
|
In the internet age getting arrested or tazed is small potatoes and welcomed in fact (Nitro Circus and all that) . Kudos to Ammon for his light-hearted approach .
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
Did you read the interview with the Google owner who said that much of today's youth would have to change their names to shake their tainted web identities?
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
I meant to gingerly add to biotch's comment.
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
Nevermind.
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
can anybody around here construct a complete sentance?
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
So Ammon does a crime.
Cops need to address the crime.
Criminal walks away = Actively trying to avoid arrest and not facing his crime.
Cops now have to stop him. Now, not later.
Talk to him? He is not listening
Trip him? Nope
Pepper spray? Nope has to be in the face to work. Not the back of his head when he is walking.
Tackle him? No, cops are trained to use methods to not get injured themselves.
Baton? Pretty high on Use of Force to beat him with a metal rod.
Gun? No
Let him get into a car? No, car chases are bad news.
Let him get away? Nope
Let him destroy evidence? No (possession of base gear and maybe a helmet cam)
The industry standard is the Taser in this type of situation.
If Ammon’s side is true, he should have just put the handcuffs on and said “take me boys, I am man enough to accept it and not stupid enough to resist arrest.”
This incident could be bigger than it seems.
Instead of one misdemeanor crime, Ammon could be facing much, much more.
Base Jumping
Resisting Arrest
Fleeing the scene of a crime
Ignored lawful order
Lying to the cops?
conspiracy?
Did others hike up with Ammon?
Did others jump with Ammon?
Did he have a getaway driver?
extenuating circumstances?
Past criminal history?
Suspected to have done this crime before?
Any drugs?
Any alcohol?
Weapons?
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
i tasered my mom last night because she burned the cookies, stupid bi-atch!
then i tasered the poodle, while it was using the toilet,
left the damn seat up,
|
|
sethsquatch76
Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
|
|
Its just amazing Ammon has not been tased before in the Valley.........
|
|
Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
|
|
i tasered my mom last night because she burned the cookies, stupid bi-atch!
but it's a long climb out of the basement.
|
|
cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
|
|
|
|
tooth
Trad climber
The Best Place On Earth
|
|
Running around hiding????
Kinda sounds from his words that he was walking, knew the dumb rules and doesn't worship touron guides like you do!
Once enough people climbed rock in Yos. parks had to accept it. The same can happen with other low-impact sports. But only those with balls will start - apparently Skipt would rather see roads paved and lodges built in the valley to accommodate users like him than jumping allowed to accommodate those who live between the trees and sky.
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
grow up = kill your spirit, deaden your soul,
conform or be cast out,
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
|
|
the issues get a little confused in this thread, IMO.
there is the BASE issue, with all it's splinter issues:
is BASE jumping legal in whatever location(s) or should it be, why or why not, how to work toward it, whether or not to jump illegally, even questions of whether or not illegal jumping works for against the possibility of legalizing jumping.
then there are the issues surrounding tasers and their use by law enforcement, both in the park and elsewhere. these can be split again into the issues and circumstances specific to this event and those not.
what i find quite silly is that the people who are most wrapped up in supporting ammon here are unable to focus (yes i am generalizing) on the tasing without talking about the BASE issues. BASE is illegal in YNP, period. when you look at steph's video for example, i think she comes across as just a bit ridiculous (what if people wanting to shoot heroin in the meadow made the same statement? ("we just wanna be free, and it's beautiful man!). there are other places to do it legally, so do it it there, or otherwise quit whining about that aspect, it just muddys the water.
as far as tasing goes, someone posted:
The industry standard is the Taser in this type of situation.
that may be true- it seems to be based upon what i see on youtube.
this is becoming a bigger and bigger problem, and people are waking up to it. i would argue that there need to be some stringent use of force limits in place nationally, so that all violent interventions (baton, taser, weapon, whatever) are used as a last resort, period.
tasers ought not to increase the safety of the officer at the expense of the public's safety, and that is what i see happening. the use of tasers comes in too often, and too early, and it replaces a variety of skills which professional LEOs ought to be trained in and ought to be skilled in, if in fact they are there to serve the public. it's simply a question of the overall philosophy of law enforcement and just what are their priorities, and those are serious questions, not just academic considerations.
can an individual or suspect legally/reasonably be apprehended with a certain level of force, that would obviously depend on multiple criteria, but for example, would it be reasonable to use baton strikes to apprehend a petty shoplifter? a jay walker? someone skateboarding on a sidewalk where it's posted to be illegal? and what about someone walking away from a BASE jump?
i would say that a taser should never be used in an instance where the use of a baton could not also be justified, but i know that is not the current legal standard. maybe it should be? i would support working toward that end. however, i would also suggest that whining in an obtuse manner about how you just wanna be free and BASE never hurt anyone and so rangers need to work to make things better or authorities need to adapt because climbers now BASE jump, it really just sounds like a load of self entitled immaturity.
know the law, follow the law, or if you don't follow the law, understand that you are choosing to break the law and accept the consequences.
if you are jumping in protest to the law, then do it openly, not in a game of cat and mouse, that's not a protest, it's evading law enforcement. i am not saying that with judgement, i am just calling a spade a spade. that said, i do not expect that when jumpers jump illegally in YNP that it can be argued they are advancing the cause of legalizing BASE in the park.
it sure seems a shame, in so many ways, that the one poor jumper cratered in that protest a few years back- can't help but wonder if that hadn't happened if there might be more middle ground now.
paz y amor
(and happy LEO evasion, you buncha law breakers you! =)
|
|
Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
|
|
Is there a Legal Defense Fund setup for Ammon yet? I think quite a few who would be willing to donate some $$$.
|
|
nita
Social climber
chica from chico, I don't claim to be a daisy
|
|
Mr Ammon, Good luck in court..
Sincerely..
nita
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
Funny that I said "Walk the Plank" then started in on the Thread about the Pirate.
Hard to pic out when I just pretend to be like the masses here??
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
post your favorite fascist>
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
Jack Cover, 88, Physicist Who Invented the Taser Stun Gun, Dies
By BRUCE WEBER
Published: February 16, 2009
Jack Cover, the physicist who invented the Taser stun gun, the police weapon that subdues its targets with jolts of electricity, died Feb. 7 in Mission Viejo, Calif. He was 88 and lived in San Clemente, Calif.
Skip to next paragraph
United Press International
Jack Cover with a model of his invention in September 1975.
The cause was pneumonia brought on by Alzheimer’s disease, said his wife, Ginny.
Mr. Cover (pronounced KOH-ver), who worked as an aerospace scientist and was affiliated with NASA’s Apollo moon landing program, came up with the idea for a nonlethal weapon for use in law enforcement in the 1960s as a response to emergencies in the news, including airplane hijackings.
The scientific inspiration, Ms. Cover said, was a newspaper article about a man who had inadvertently walked into an electrified fence and survived, though he was temporarily immobilized.
“When he read that had happened, he knew an electric current could be used without danger,” Ms. Cover said.
Mr. Cover named his invention as a tribute to another inspiration, the Tom Swift science fiction novels he read as a child, one of which was “Tom Swift and His Electric Rifle.” He created an acronym from “Thomas Swift Electric Rifle,” adding the “A,” he explained to The Washington Post in 1976, “because we got tired of answering the phone ‘T.S.E.R.’ ”
The Taser gun shoots electrified darts connected to the gun by insulated wires, and it works by flooding the target’s body with current, causing uncontrollable muscle contractions.
Small amounts of current are not inherently dangerous, but the safety threshold is not absolute, especially involving people whose heart circuitry has been made vulnerable by drug use or overexertion, common factors among resisting offenders.
Law enforcement agencies generally support the Taser as a worthy tool that protects officers from violent offenders and protects the suspects as well. According to Taser International, founded in 1993, which markets products based on Mr. Cover’s original invention, more than 13,400 law enforcement agencies around the world now use Tasers. More than 375,000 individual officers have them, and so do more than 181,000 private citizens.
From 1976 to 1995, Tasers were considered firearms because the darts were propelled by gunpowder. Approached in 1993 by Taser International, Mr. Cover modified the weapon so that it was powered by compressed nitrogen, allowing Tasers to be freely sold to the public.
The proliferation of Tasers has made them controversial, as their frequent use has led to fears of their overuse. According to Amnesty International, which seeks to have the use of Tasers by private citizens prohibited and use by the police curtailed pending further study, at least 334 people have died since 2001 after being shot with Tasers by police officers.
In a statement sent by e-mail on Friday, a spokesman for Taser International, Steve Tuttle, said, “We stand by the safety of our devices.”
John Higson Cover Jr., known as Jack, was born in New York City on April 6, 1920, and grew up mostly in Chicago, where his father was a professor of economics and his mother earned a master’s degree in mathematics at the University of Chicago. Mr. Cover later earned a B.S. and a Ph.D. in physics there.
He was a scientist at North American Aviation (which later became Rockwell International), a National Aeronautics and Space Administration contractor, and he led the company’s team of researchers working on the Apollo project.
Mr. Cover’s first two marriages ended in divorce. In addition to his wife, he is survived by a son, Steven, of Newport, Wash.; three daughters, Dede Rhodes, also of Newport, Melissa Beckley of Brush Prairie, Wash., and Cathy Cover of Tucson; two stepchildren, Shawn Kerr of San Clemente and Aron Fisher of Menifee, Calif.; 10 grandchildren and five great-grandchildren.
On the issue of Taser safety, Mr. Cover was unwavering.
“He used to say he saved 100,000 lives,” his wife said.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
can an individual or suspect legally/reasonably be apprehended with a certain level of force, that would obviously depend on multiple criteria, but for example, would it be reasonable to use baton strikes to apprehend a petty shoplifter? a jay walker? someone skateboarding on a sidewalk where it's posted to be illegal? and what about someone walking away from a BASE jump?
Matt, you make a statement about separating crimes such as illegal Base v resisting arrest but make the statement above.
If criminals just comply with the arresting officer there wouldn't be high speed chases, cop shooting perps, beatings, taser use, ETC.
You will have your chance to plead your case but the cops are not the right people to complain too and the heat of the moment is not the time.
Shut up, suck it up that you spend the night in jail, and get the public defender or lawyer.
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
|
|
that's not my point, obviously.
if someone does not comply in any way, it does not necessarily follow that the use of force is either necessary or allowable, and IF the use of force is allowable in a situation where an individual is non-compliant, the use of a taser ought to be strictly restricted (as should that of a baton) to a situation where 1) all other reasonable options have been exercised, and 2) the subject represents a risk to the physical well being of the officer(s), her/him self, or the public.
absent those criteria, the use of a taser should be illegal, based upon both the physical pain it creates, and the significant risk to the individual being subjected to it's use.
i am not arguing that base jumping is somehow inherently a legal right because it somehow represents freedom, but i would argue that it's closer to jay-walking than to violent crime, or it's closer to riding a bicycle on a trail in yosemite than to drunk driving.
i mean, what is the real idea here?
most good americans agree (as#@&%e fascists notwithstanding) that it's not ok for the USA to torture terrorists (it's certainly illegal, at any rate, even if those laws are apparently not enforced), but somehow the LEO community in this country is given a free pass to essentially torture an individual who is non-compliant, d of other criteria? i find that just amazing, and somewhat obscene.
yes, it diminishes whatever risk might exist for the LEO, but so would shooting the subject dead, and we wouldn't do that, right? (...right?)
MT- your argument would read exactly the same if the argument were shooting the person with rocksalt in the genitals... "shoulda complied, it's your own damn fault, do the crime, do the time...
|
|
cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
|
|
|
|
TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
|
|
I don't believe any of us know the whole story.
However, tasing seems to me, to be over reacting to a "victimless" crime, regardless if he did try to evade arrest. Strong arm a tourist, rob the deli, skip out on your mountain room bar tab( just kidding, I've been thrown out of there not once, not twice, but on three occasions, but I still don't condone pulling a runner) tase the sh#t out of him. But not for flying. Not too long ago, a flyer drown after being pursued into the Merced. Whether or not it had merit, it seemed like it could have been a wrongful death suit waiting to happen.
I agree with much of what Tom( El-Cap pics) wrote several posts up. Obviously things need to change and the change has to be bi-lateral and bi partisan. Seems like the laws here are where the pot laws were in the 50's and early 60's. Perhaps a dialog between a base/flyer colalition and the NPS would be conducive to avoiding this kind of reaction in the future.
Till then, Ammon, please talk only to your legal guys. Take the free and very good legal advise here on this forum. Good luck mate.!
|
|
AstroArlo
Trad climber
Jackson, WY
|
|
As a volunteer EMT who works frequently with both Grand Teton park rangers, local sheriff deputies, and city police officers, I can say that too many here are painting them as gun happy loose cannons violating everyone's rights and employing exceessive force just because they can.
Nothing is farther from the truth!
Everyone should spend a few days on patrol with a LEO to see how they are extremely patient, tolerant, and try to avoid causing any physical harm to the public which they serve.
Believe me, these honorable people tolerate a huge amount of crap and abuse from the public, but respond to the abuse with calmness and respect for the people they are dealing with. I suspect that many of the people here would be pounding the crap out of somebody who gave them 1/4 the abuse that the LEO's graciously put up with. In my experience observing 100's of interactions between LEO's and the public, it takes significant escalation and provocation on the part of the public before any force by LEOs is utilized. Are there bad cops? yup. Are there as#@&%e climbers? yup. But these are the exceptions rather than the rule.
All LEOs want is to be respected and to follow their instructions. If you respect them, follow their instructions, and tell the truth, you'll come through unscathed. Yes, you might get a ticket, or even be arrested, but you probably broke a law. You'll get the chance to prove your case in court.
On my way back from Yosemite in May, I got pulled over by a Highway Patrolman in Winnemucca. I was doing 72 in a 65. He asked me how fast I was going....I told him when I looked down at the speedometer I was going over 70 mph, and I knew it was a 65 zone. We talked about this for a couple of minutes, and then ended up in a friendly conversation about my trip and climbs in Yosemite for about 15 minutes. I got a warning and went about my business...the awesome power of respect and honesty!
As far as base jumping being a victimless crime, consider what would happen if another victimless crime, illegal camping, were allowed to proceed unenforced in Yosemite. Imagine what Yosemite would be like if people were allowed to camp wherever, whenever, and for as long as they liked...it would not be a pretty sight, and Yosemite's environment would be rapidly destroyed. Although the camping regs are a hassle, I totally agree that they are necessary.
If you don't like the base jumping laws, then work to get them changed. Breaking the law and then running from the authorities is not a great way to make your case! Respecting the law and the LEOs, demonstrating that you care about Yosemite and that you are responsible adults, and working through the right channels is the only way things are going to change.
But also accept that the general public may think that Yosemite is not a place for base jumping. There are many things that are banned in National Parks which some people think should be legal, but the majority think should not.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
So they should be able to tase illegal campers too?
And Yoko and Lois go unscathed?
|
|
blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
|
|
I'm not a huge fan of LEO in general, but . . .
Seems to me that when you're caught, you're caught, and you should comply with LEO instructions from that point on.
If you don't, you've just seriously escalated the situation, and no matter how trivial it was when it started, it isn't from that point on.
Put another way, evading is a serious crime in and of itself, and that trumps the fact that the evasion may have been due to a minor crime. Lots of other people have said the same thing, just bears repeating.
|
|
sammy-pajamy
Boulder climber
citrus heights ca
|
|
dingus milktoast since your impossible to reach by phone im in fort bragg with linda and her two monsters and aunt kenzi for the weekend in some hotel and im going bouldering tmrw for sure on some beach over here if we can figure out the tide things get ahold of me or andy pop love you
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
I am 48 years old.. Never been roughed up or tasered by the cops. It's actually pretty easy to not get tasered. Even if have broken the law and pissed them off they usualy calm down pretty quick if you grovel properly when caught.
Life is tough when you are stupid. Simple lesson that I learned many moons ago. Calling cops names, giveing them the finger, back talking, etc is all a real bad idea. I was smart enough to learn these things from watching other stupid people mouth off to the cops and observing the results.
It may not be right but it is a plain and simple fact that cops have complete and ultimate power over your life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.
The only way to deal with them and have a happy ending to the story is to follow the yes sir, no sir path and hope for the best.
If the cops are wrong prove it in court.. Out on the street you have no chance and things will get dramaticly worse for you if you argue with them.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
We seem to have a real dichotomy of opinion here, but it boils down to what constitutes "excessive force" for a crime, an infraction of rules, violation of a "regulation." These all would incur a response from a LEO, but use of a baton or tasering a subject seems to be a bit excessive as a response, especially in the case of a simple rule infraction or violation of a regulation.
The simple fact of providing a near-lethal force option to the LEOs in the form of a taser gun is essentially wrong in and of itself.. In the old days, the LEO simply used training to physically subdue the subject.
Last year in Glenrock, WY. at the "Deer Creek Days" parade, an LEO tasered a 72 year old rancher who was driving an antique tractor in the parade and failed to comply with an order to turn (either left or right--I don't recall).
The LEO then tasered the driver who couldn't hear due to being hearing impaired! His hearing aid had been turned off due to the racket generated by the old engine.
The LEO is now on "administrative leave" pending dismissal from the police force.
Correction added in edit: He HAS been dismissed from the Police Department for excessive use of force.
|
|
originalpmac
Mountain climber
Anywhere I like
|
|
me and some friends had a run in with LEO's in the Valley this spring. We just came down from a few days on LA Direct, got some pizza and some beers in Curry, thenwere heading out to find a spot to camp,. (unregistered, obviously) My friend swerved slightly near Lower Yosemite Falls and immediately Jacobs was on us.
Now the guy driving was not stoned, in fact, had not smoked pot in almost a year, but he is a total hippie, and his car fits the part. Jacobs said he smelled pot and was gonna search, bro says you don't have me consent, Jacobs doesn't care. F*#king as#@&%e nearly broke my fingers while searching me. Anyway, he finds a lot of something, bro gets ticket, we sleep in El Portal, only to return the they Valley in the AM.
Kinda rambling, but what I am trying to say is that those LEO's are c*#ks@ckers, p[lain and simple. I have seen them walk thru C4 armed, heavily, just to make there presence known. When we were sitting there with a mag-lite in our faces, I realized they would love it if you ran. Would relish the chance to chase you and taze you. And those Nazi fvcks are big and fit.
Of course the use of a taser was unwarranted. But I am sure those LEOs laughed it up afterward.
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
|
|
on the other hand, i have personally had really good experiences with yosemite law enforcement.
i am sure there is something to what the guy up-thread from WY said about his experiences as well.
that said, it's not the average interaction that should set the bar, it's the worst.
tasers need to be a last resort rather than a first resort. an alternative to a bator or firearm, rather than a means for expediency or domination of a bad attitude.
recently there was a case in the south somewhere when the cops literally used a taser to try and get someone to answer a question about a 3rd party. there is a video on youtube of a guy at an A's game getting tasered and he's just refusing to get out of his seat.
enough is enough already.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
Orig's post has to be a troll. Loaded with attitude as the post is you can imagine what the response to the officer must have been like. And the post gives more than enough data to support an officer's decision reasonable cause existed. A fantastic job in troll construction. A work of art.
Even the lead in was a beaut. Several days on the Lost Arrow? Other than a tight rope expedition I can't imagine.
Absolutely great piece!
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
i'm old, so wtf.
you guys tell me who the ranger was and i'll poor gas on him and torch him in the middle of camp 4 and we can roast marshmellows on the guys ass,
hell, ill do 10 years in rikers to prove my point,
i've had it with this punk, my blood is starting to boil,
no man will hold sway over his fellow humans, not in my world,
|
|
Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
|
|
Original said... Anyway, he finds a lot of something, bro gets ticket, we sleep in El Portal, only to return the they Valley in the AM.
and you are complaining?
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
|
|
whether he is or is not what you describe, that would have no impact on either the decision process of the officers at the game, or the criteria for use of a taser in a single scenario.
as i said before, it's not acceptable to essentially transfer the risk from the officer to the subject unless the taser is used as a means of last resort, period.
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
can you re write that so it actually makes sense?
or am i just stoned?
|
|
Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
|
|
Matt says...
there is a video on youtube of a guy at an A's game getting tasered and he's just refusing to get out of his seat.
enough is enough already.
So are you suggesting they should have tried to lift him and carry him? And how many cops would need to be injured before a Taser was a good idea?
A smaller cop should have to physically fight some big dude first before they could resort to a Taser?
Its OK for cops to risk injury or worse by physically interacting with a combative subject, as long as they don't injure or cause any pain to the subject?
Are you kidding?
Cops are just regular people, not super ninja fighters. Many are woman.
Even the biggest badass cops I know, and some are huge guys with military background, still acknowledge the dangers of subduing a suspect.
You never know what someone will do to get away.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
locker,
I got an email from a certain cop who used to post here who thought I was being serious. LOL
|
|
Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
|
|
talk about travel, what I am up to,where i am going, and why i am such a cool ass motherf*#ker.
Hahahahaha! Good post Riley.
|
|
grunter
Social climber
confusion
|
|
Riley, do you need attention, recognition, didn't mommy love you right. Your so full of yourself. Have you ever noticed how often you try to focus attention on yourself. My but you are important saving all those lives. Where do you live? Barstow. Rotflmao. Now that's a place to save the world from, center of the known universe. Dude. Does the phrase pompous self important ass ring any bells with you.
|
|
TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
|
|
fattrad- "...suspect that most would ultimately preferred to getting tased than getting hit with blunt instrument."
locker- "I'd take the TAZING any day."
I agree with the above statements generally speaking(not taking any stance in regards to Ammon).
But something obviously went wrong last night in Washington(state)!!
edit: Sorry, it was a VA man(Washington Post)...my bad.
Regardless, he died from a tazing. Evidently he was running around screaming in the middle of the night and his neighbors called the police who thought it was in the dudes, theirs(when he tried to tackle one of them)and the neighberhoods best interest to taze him.
He stopped breathing after one jolt of the gun, and resuscitation was futile.
|
|
grunter
Social climber
confusion
|
|
Yes, I am absolutely sure Barstow is a very important place. Just as my armpit is a very important place to me
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
|
|
Are you kidding?
have you seen the clip?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwyKBvZ2vgQ
they tookonly 60 seconds to get from initial contact to full taser, and the guy never left his seat, what's more, you can see they made that decision only 20+ seconds in.
what's going on there is that the police are not even trying to de-escalate anything, they are using brute force instead of any other form of training. what has this guy done? been rude? fine, he's an ass, you can negotiate with him, you can use skills than can be trained and learned, the taser should be deployed when a subject cannot be reasoned with and is a clear and present danger, not before.
the guy was taserd for not being compliant upon initial contact.
i am against that, and no, i am not kidding.
you think this makes cops safer?
i say it makes a certain segment of the public feel like the cops are even more of a threat, and thus it puts cops in danger, it's a self fulfilling prophecy of sorts.
|
|
TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
|
|
Warbler!
Good eyes Kevin.
Yes, that's Beardman/Tommy Bruso, the Viet Nam vet.
The dude seems to have a penchant/inclination for dissident aggression.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
All you wankers are light!
Only bad ass dudes get to get Tased!
It's a great honor to be in the "I got Tased Club".
Join now!!! Become bad ass.
And .... don't be late ......
|
|
cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
|
|
Fall of Icarus - Henri Matisse
"Don't taze me, Helios!"
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
this us great, Jack Cover, inventor of the taser, studied from the same guy who gave us another wonderful invention, the atomic bomb! yipee!
Jack Cover was born in New York City on April 6, 1920, and grew up in Chicago.[1] He earned a bachelor's degree and a doctorate in nuclear physics at the University of Chicago[1], studying under Enrico Fermi
Fermi is widely regarded as one of the leading scientists of the 20th century, highly accomplished in both theory and experiment.[1] Along with J. Robert Oppenheimer,[2] he is frequently referred to as "the father of the atomic bomb"
Thanks Jack!
|
|
PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Clovis, CA
|
|
The rationale of cops have a hard job, are under a lot of stress, etc. does not excuse the use of harsher methods to enforce the law. If you can't handle the job, then find a new one.
With the increase in use of tasers, from the videos I've seen, it seems that LEOs are getting lazier. Not in all cases, but seriously, if an LEO is unsure if they can subdue a person, call for backup, then take em down.
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
lets give jack a little taste of his own medicine,
here jack, try this out,
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
Base, pretty fast when they come after you, yippie!
What about all your gear, thousands of dollars lost when they confiscate?
|
|
neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
|
|
hey there say, brokendownclimber.... as to what you posted, i just took a bit here, for referernce:
The LEO then tasered the driver who couldn't hear due to being hearing impaired! His hearing aid had been turned off due to the racket generated by the old engine.
thanks very kindly for sharing this.... these folks rarely get their story told, much farther than out of town....
or even IN town, in some cases....
others really do need to understand about this, too...
god bless...
:)
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
My mom was a student of Enrico Fermi at the UoC, and she couldn't tell you how a wheelbarrow worked.
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
Watched LV Jail last night on TRU Tv
Amazeing and disturbing look at how the other half lives.. there are many people out there who have really made some horrible choices in their lifes.
Amyways the show is basicly just the process of betting booked into county jail in LV NV
Seems like all the guards and other officers were as polite and fair as possible with the incomeing inmates with the exception of one bald headded meathead guard who has serious ego problems and needs to force his will onto the inmates. Interesting to watch but depressing at the same time.
The thing that gets hammered home time and again is just don't balk talk the meatheads. It will get you no where fast.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
Well TMC.
I had some reeeeeeealy bad experiences during my 30 hours in Clark County Detention after defying the rangers by climbing in Valley Of Fire.
That said, they weren't all bad, and in fact, after looking through my file and talking to me, one of the COs actually told me that I ought to get a good lawyer and sue them.
I did.
And won.
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
You must have gotten that bald headded bastard! I swear he should be wearing an orange jumpsuit instead of a uniform! the rest of the ones they feature on the show seem pretty decent.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
Wasn't just one.
My 25 page complaint was later also used in another civil rights lawsuit by an inmate who was kicked by a CO so hard a colostomy was required.
(among other things I had been kicked in the head while on the floor)
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
$9K
Long story, bottom line; next time I would tell the judge that the money was secondary to seeing that there was no double standard for the officers.
But, of course, there was.
But I got the satisfaction of seeing my lawsuit support the subsequent complaint which cost them MAJOR bucks.
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
fatty, the 4-20 has really screwed up your short term memory, thats like #19,
i am moving on, nothing left to vent, i am now back in present time along life's time track,
not stuck in an incident.
if you want a happy life, avoid getting stuck in an incident,
keep the tape running,
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
no, it's his parents fault.
his dad was probably in the house the whole time he was growing up.
a military dad i bet.
with a long bull whip.
"come here fatty, time for your whippin,"
"but dad, i din't do anything, and i mowed the lawn twice!"
"it's discipline for disciplines sake, just in case you be in devilment,"
"i'm from the south, boy, don't you talk back,"
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
stupid, no shoes on,
|
|
Mittens
climber
|
|
F*ck the Po.
Free Ammon.
Palin 2012.
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
Ammon McNeely was arrested eighteen days ago, on August 19, 2010.
Six days ago, on August 31, 2010, JesseM, the climbing ranger posted:
For US Court federal documents you can use www.pacer.gov (public access to court electronic records).
A criminal complaint was filed by the NPS for this case that outlines the facts and legal reasons for the charges against Ammon. This is a public document.
I can't/won't get involved on this forum as far as the reasons for the arrest and tasing of Ammon, the charges he faces, or the legalization of base jumping.
The case will go through the legal process, and a Federal Judge will review evidence and arguments including legal reasoning set forth by opposing parties or litigants to come to a decision which determines rights and obligations between the parties involved.
There will be a use of force review panel for the incident (as always).
MTucker posted the Use of Force Continuum for Law Enforcement. This is similar to the NPS standard.
Jesse McGahey
Climbing Ranger
Yosemite NP
Where is the criminal complaint? People here on this board have checked PACER and it is not there. Also, as far as I can see, the Park Service also has not made any press release or released any other information regarding the incident.
Is this normal?
Is it possible that the Park Service is reconsidering its position, or that the DOJ is reluctant to file?
Many here have wisely refrained from forming any opinion until more complete information has been available, but there appears to be a lack of transparency here.
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
one last thought,
i would rather be brought down by a billy club to the right shoulder,
than by a taser.
at least i know what the club feels like,
but that means getting in real close like.
i think tasers are great for small cops or maybe female cops,
but i bet this is the first person tazed in a national park.
over at jellystone park they only use the tasers on grizzzzzz...
FYI> if you want to build your own taser,
|
|
atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
|
|
Hahahaha, Its probably not a good idea to BASE jump with a BAC of .13, have an ounce and paraphernalia in the car with food improperly stored in your vehicle, and you and your girl run from officers after being told to "Stop, or you will be tased". Jus sayin...
Good luck Ammon.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
"Many here have wisely refrained from forming any opinion until more complete information has been available, but there appears to be a lack of transparency here."
Speaking practically, whatever issues there are here will have to be adjudicated in a court. I would also expect the case traffic out of the NPS is small compared to that from a large municipality so the time for processing will be more determined by staffing.
If we wish to have faster response to planned noncompliance in National Parks taxpayers will need to fork over more money for lawyers.
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
Hahahaha, Its probably not a good idea to BASE jump with a BAC of .13, have an ounce and paraphernalia in the car with food improperly stored in your vehicle, and you and your girl run from officers after being told to "Stop, or you will be tased". Jus sayin...
Good luck Ammon.
Atchafalya, is the complaint up on Pacer now? Could you post more details?
|
|
atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
|
|
GC, Those are some of the allegations from the criminal complaint that was filed on 9/3/10.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
Hahahaha, Its probably not a good idea to BASE jump with a BAC of .13, have an ounce and paraphernalia in the car with food improperly stored in your vehicle, and you and your girl run from officers after being told to "Stop, or you will be tased". Jus sayin...
Way more probable than Ammon on the radio "I jumped but nothing else".
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
Two People
This incident could be bigger than it seems.
Instead of one misdemeanor crime, Ammon(and Girl) could be facing much, much more.
Base Jumping(accomplice)
Resisting Arrest
Fleeing the scene of a crime
Ignored lawful order
Lying to the cops
Drugs
Public intox
food storage
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
Ammon probably floated in while the fuzz was clearing the Meadow and checking cars.
Not good planning.
Ammon's personality + booze + adrenaline does not equal standing there like a statue after being caught for BASE.
So with him being on the radio, steph's video, claims of brutality and so many friends crying foul: I bet his plea deal will not be very generous.
The more you fight it the more the DA will make up for his/her time and effort.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
Nope DMT. Just you projecting into a toneless post.
Same tone of voice all the way through. Pretty much just repeating myself from before.
Talk to "atchafalaya" about being happy.
|
|
TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
|
|
"that means getting in real close like."
As in up close and personal choke hold da mutha' tell he does the 'funky chicken' kinda close.
Happened to me one chilly Spring night around 10pm as I was taking a pee on a large Doug Fir tree in the Yose Village. Suddenly a bright light exposed my personal parts, so I scooted to the left behind the tree. Then to the right as it followed me back. Hey I was just trying to take a leak.
Suddenly, mid stream(so to speak)I felt a hard object across my adams apple, and started doing the funky. The air being cut off from my brain, I soon found myself cuffed, faced down in the dirt, unconscious.
LEO #1- With some guy either kicking or poking me from above, I regained consciousness hearing "Why were you hiding from us? Why wouldn't you come out from behind the tree?"
ME- "I was taking a pee! What did you expect me to do?"
LEO #2- To LEO #1 after checking the doug fir, and evidently seeing pissed on bark "This ain't our guy, let him go!"
And off they went.
|
|
HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
|
|
not surprising
clobber or taser first
ask questions later
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
DMT I understand where you are coming from. I am posting the unpopular realism to the situation.
A few others have said the same as well.
Just take the tone of Ben Stein.
My MO is to multi-post. Check the history.
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
|
|
let's get away from all the assumption and innuendo-
can someone cut and paste from the public record?
thx in advance
(muck- everything after "ammon probably" in your post on the last page is necessarily worthless)
|
|
PP
Trad climber
SF,CA
|
|
Ammon should request a change of venue. My friend let the air out of a ranger's tire (really dumb) and got caught. In judge Pitt's court he requested a change of venue and got it moved to fresno and they let him off (he plead a moment of insanity). They probably don't even know what base jumping is in Fresno.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
DMT-
I really don't know if a parachutist (FAA License) is required to use a wingsuit, but if the FAA IS involved, there is a 0.04 BA limit SET IN STONE for "flying."
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
can someone cut and paste from the public record?
Please?
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
It may be a violation of copyright to cut and paste from a proprietary website, and this may be a rather conspicuous place in which to do it. The fee for viewing pages on the PACE site may not include making any copies, without payment of a further fee.
|
|
Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
|
|
The public record is copyright protected?
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
Apparently us INFIDELS are not allowed to access the site. Would you please post the report so we don't waste time chasing worthless links?
Thanks!
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
I can't believe for a second that a court document of ANY kind would be copyright protected! It's a matter of public record.
Fatty - highlight the relevant text with your cursor, right click on it and select "copy".
Then open up a reply in this forum, and hit "Ctrl" and "V" together and that will paste it in.
Thanks.
|
|
bmacd
climber
Relic Hominid
|
|
fer gods sake someone please get the details of this document posted up on ST, this is beyond ridiculous
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
Fattrad just described 99% of all police reports.
How many defendants say this about a police report "That is exactly what happened"?
Less than 1%.
Nothing new there.
Not good. Of course LEO's have been known to write a bit of fiction(never me), so we should wait for court. The report also had misspellings and grammatical errors, bad form.
Wait for court????
Why the report is out. That is the story from the Park.
This thing is not going to court. If you are looking for a big hollywood legal scene it isn't going to happen.
More than 90% of criminal cases are completed without a trial and with a plea.
|
|
Tarz
Mountain climber
Calli
|
|
Pardon my ignorance but can you clarify #46?
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
#46
The most famous bear on ST.
Trolling for #46 means = leaving food out = violating the food storage code
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
bear #46. Inside joke. Bear #46 was on old trouble maker bear in the park. Lots of stories about that bear, and many things attributed to it that weren't actually done by it. #46 achieved legend status.
|
|
Acer
Big Wall climber
AZ
|
|
That is the thing about all Legends.
There isn't one exact story.
The more the better, the bigger the Legend.
|
|
JMC
climber
oilfields of Sumatra
|
|
From http://www.pacer.gov/psc/faq.html ("What are the acceptable uses of the data obtained from the PACER system?"): The information gathered from the PACER system is a matter of public record and may be reproduced without permission.
8 cents a page, no charge if PACER download useage is less than $10/quarter. I submitted an account request, but their system operates on the same technological level as a Nigerian bank's, and I am waiting for confirmation.
cut and paste that sucker fatrad!
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
Understood fatty, thanks for the effort!
|
|
neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
|
|
hey there, john moosie, say, ...oh my... and, say, as to this quote of yours:
bear #46. Inside joke. Bear #46 was on old trouble maker bear in the park. Lots of stories about that bear, and many things attributed to it that weren't actually done by it. #46 achieved legend status.
...yeah, and say, perhaps ol' #46 even had a STUNT double, for his "slack" "under-the-weather days... one never can fully tell, with legends, you know.... ;) ;) ;) :))
*all in fun... :))
:)
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
Edit - deleted but not removed in order to leave Kait's post at the top of the hopefully-final page.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
Whatever DMT.
Both stories are in.
Ammon said on national radio he only jumped.
NPS report/story is written.
Way way way different. So what is the truth?
Where is the video?
What is Ammon going to do is the BIG question? He has a HUGE uphill battle.
Take a plea or go to trial?
Ammon's criminal history will not help. He does have a history of alcohol and driving in YOSE.
He sure didn't follow tv, lawyer or commonsense advice. Don't talk to the cops much less admit that you did a crime and did that crime in the past too.
Does FATTRAD need to post the video again???
|
|
Tarz
Mountain climber
Calli
|
|
Thanks for clarification on the #46 thing. Understood!
|
|
HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
|
|
"Base'r McNeely. Inside joke. Base'r McNeely was a young trouble maker base'r in the park. Lots of stories about that base'r, and many things attributed to it that weren't actually done by it. Base'r McNeely achieved legend status."
|
|
JMC
climber
oilfields of Sumatra
|
|
from PACER -
|
|
edejom
Boulder climber
Butte, America
|
|
An ounce of chronic and "Nature Light" beer must have been for the after jump party...
...or the pre-jump party...
...or both
May the judge have pity for you, sir Ammon
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
Sunrise and sunset. Really?
Questioning that sounds stupid.
Sunrise and sunset is VERY official and is used in hunting and aviation along with many other applications. It is very specific also.
Here are some examples.
Yosemite helicopter 551 is not allowed to fly 30 minutes before sunrise and 30 after sunset. Very official and all about safety.
Most states have hunting regs that say the same thing. No hunting at night. Ever want to keep your hunting privilege in the west, don’t break a hunting law.
Today in Yosemite
Official Sunrise = 6:34
Official Sunset = 19:17
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
They arrest him around sundown and haul him away to jail. Then they go back for his car which of course is still parked there because he wasn't able to drive it away and charge him for improper food storage after sundown.
What's next? If he was standing there with a kid, would they have cited him for "child abandonment" after they hauled him off to jail leaving the kid the in the meadow? Seems unreasonable.
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
I counted 11 typos in 3 pages. Just what kind of people is the Park Service hiring these days?
|
|
426
climber
Buzzard Point, TN
|
|
churched?
|
|
tomtom
Social climber
Seattle, Wa
|
|
Average?
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
It's to believe that McNeely would voluntarily admit not only that he had committed the crime that he was arrested for (and that it was premeditated and he knew it was illegal), but also that he had jumped twice before.
Do they use waterboarding in Yosemite, or did he just drink more beer than he could handle?
|
|
HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
|
|
They arrest him around sundown and haul him away to jail. Then they go back for his car which of course is still parked there because he wasn't able to drive it away and charge him for improper food storage after sundown. Ever read Catch-22?
Technically he was in violation of food storage because he was first seen in the air after sundown.
If he hadn't left the cooler in his car would they have had the right to open his vehicle and find the stuff?
As has been mentioned several times, when you try to evade the Constabulary they'll throw the book at you. Or fatty will crack your skull. Or both.
Fatty obviously didn't need no stinkin' Taser. Neither did Ammon's arresting officers. InMyNotSoHumbleOpinion.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
Maybe they took Ammon to a back room and gave him some gentle persuasion to confess, like I did to a certain PCP seller....... with a Maglite.
Fattrad, sure making yourself look bad.
I was expecting you to follow up with
"Cases don't get dismissed and spelling mistakes don't making it to court and win over the jury."
"Ammon implicated his girlfriend as well in the interview. They know who the girl is that 'fled the area'."
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
Well it didn't take long to go down the road of spelling and grammar.
A defense attorney will not even go there. There are much bigger things to work on. Spelling is very petty and child like.
If you are picking on a cop for spelling or grammar it will back fire on you in front of the jury or judge.
There was still a crime committed.
Cops might only have a high school education. Like many of the jury. How many people out there are PREFECT on spelling and grammar? Even with computer help? No one is perfect. We are all human.
The jury will question the defense. “Why are they working with something so small? Takes a lot of money to have an attorney or PD. Hope that attorney isn’t a fool like the criminal and is earning his $250+ an hour. Better have something more than a spelling error. I hate it when people pick on me for spelling.”
Jury sympathy for the police.
The jury or judge relate to the police much more than the supposed criminal. Especially after jury selection has been made and the extremes on either side are removed.
How many people out there are PREFECT on spelling and grammar? Even with computer help? No one is perfect. We are all human.
The cop is an average public servant doing the best they can.
For a jury, judge, DA you better have more than a spelling mistake. If spelling is such a big part of your defense you really don't have a case.
Did I say that all ready? We are only human. Jury will understand and move on. It is not the catalyst to such bigger mistakes. Like pot, that leads to more dangerous drugs.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
It depends on what discretion the prosecution has to amend the wording of the charge(s). Given that an accused has a constitutional right to know the exact charge(s) against him/her, sooner rather than later, so as to prepare a defence, it may not be a lot.
For example, one of the charges says "between sundown and sunset". Presumably they meant "between sunset and sunrise" or "between sundown and sunup", but it doesn't take a bright defence lawyer (or physicist) to notice and point out that no time elapses between sundown and sunset - it's the same time. Which arguably means that the government hasn't specified when the offence allegedly took place, an essential element of the charge. Whether or when the prosecution could amend that charge, or withdraw and refile it, follows.
|
|
Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
|
|
1) The same max punishment for food storage as threatening, resisting etc. a LEO. Really?
2) drinking cheap light beer. Should be tased for that alone.
3) "Nature Light Beer", so are they going to tase Nature at the Facelift?
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
This whole case is pathetic, and is indicative of how FUed a society we have become.
I really don't have much tolerance for stupidity, however, which is what Ammon exhibited. Being somewhat "intoxicated" shouldn't be a crime either, especially if one is walking on a trail. Use of the "herb?" I couldn't care less. The food storage charge should be thrown out as being caused by the arrest.
What the LEOs are doing now is called "piling on," hoping to have enough charges pending to force a negotiated, plea bargain arrangement on one of the charges.
What I DON'T approve of is the substantial escaltion in use of force and tasing! All of the Taser guns should be taken away from the park LEOs.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
Title 36 CFR deals with National Parks and more.
Each Park is a little different.
Here is the 36 CFR with the Superinendent's Compendium for Yosemite.
Food storage (36 CFR 2.10(d)) is on page 20.
It pretty much says unattended food, coolers, and such must be properly stored and out off sight at all times.
All you need to know about the specifics in Yosemite.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
What we all need to do is "eschew stupidity!"
In the case discussed here, Ammon violated that essential rule.
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
"Cops might only have a high school education. Like many of the jury. How many people out there are PREFECT on spelling and grammar? Even with computer help? No one is perfect. We are all human."
The complaint is not the work of some beat cop with a GRE. It's the work of the prosecutor who is presumably an attorney and presumably puts in (or SHOULD have put in) more time in effort into her work on a federal filing than we put into a typical Supertopo forum post. Yet she made more errors than most Supertopo posters would be expected to make in a post of that length. To have this many errors in a short, three page complaint shows sloppiness and inattention to detail. This is an embarrassment to the Park and reduces the credibility of the prosecutor in front of the court.
But this will not let Ammon off the hook. If this goes to trial, it will be the testimony of the rangers who were at the scene that counts. If they show the attention to detail that they should and prove the case, the carelessness of the prosecutor in putting together the complaint won't make much difference.
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
The same max punishment for food storage as threatening, resisting etc. a LEO. Really?
That was my reaction too. Next time you carelessly forget to put some food in the storage locker, remember that you have committed a federal crime that has that carries the same maximum penalties as does BASE jumping El Cap or threatening a ranger!
But how often do we see rangers chase after someone and tase them for improper food storage?
What is the maximum penalty for speeding in the park? Is it a $5,000 fine and 6 months in prison, just like everything else?
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
"I know a couple of really good Fed. defense attorneys if Ammon needs a referral. "
Even if 1/3 of that is true, he's gonna need it, big time...
Ammon's in real trouble with this one. Curious to see what a plea bargain will result in.
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
5 mister meanies, big deal.
under an ounce by 1 gram, rangers suck it UP!
throw it out with a fine of 1000 bucks.
they had no right to search the vehicle .
any evidence obtained after the fact is inadmissable.
your witness...
chris rock you Suck.
i used to have respect, but you sold out to the rule crazy cops!
what did you get busted for?
frickin hypokrit.
hey, is there even a taser in that video? if not, pretty lame to keep posting it, jus sayin...
Fletcher Ogg.
now theres a bar room name if i ever heard it,
"who tased you"
"fletcher ogg"
"say what?"
"is that like, some kind of zoo animal from tanzania or something?"
"yeah, the ogg is related to the african dik dik."
|
|
slobmonster
Trad climber
OAK (nee NH)
|
|
Y'all realize that the much-lauded founder of this very site, and publisher of all those red-bound guidebooks, faced a court date for an illegal BASE jump within recent memory. June 2009 I think?
5K fine and a year probation including no entry into National Parks, if I am not mistaken?
I would wager that he did not get tased because: he wasn't inebriated, wasn't carrying, didn't run, and copped to it.
|
|
caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
|
|
I thought he wasn't actually caught. They videoed the jump and the park used the video as evidence.
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
^^^
A jump in an empty canyon that the rangers didn't even see. Without a witness (who narked on them) and then cooperation by those involved they probably wouldn't have had anything and still they nailed him. All for an offense that carries the same penalty as "improper food storage!"
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
Sorry, Ammon's got way too many offenses with this one. The BAC isn't good, the pot isn't good, the base jumping isn't good, the "resisting arrest" isn't good. He's gonna have to plea this one out is my guess.
There's an age old rule. If you are going to break the law, only break one at a time. He blew that one big time.
Also, if he has priors in the park, that will not help him either.
Judges as a general rule are less than impressed with someone who walks into court with a laundry list of charges, and possible priors yelling how they were mistreated by the cops.
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
After reading the various background materials on this, my conclusion is that the amount of resources squandered on enforcement of the anti-BASE jumping rules is ridiculous and the penalties are way our of proportion to the offense.
But this particular case is not a good example of why BASE jumping should be legal. Rather it will be used by the LEO's to argue why BASE jumping is so illegal.
"What does BASE jumping lead to? Drugs! Alcohol! Public Intoxication! Resisting Arrest! IMPROPER FOOD STORAGE!!!!! Call the FBI!"
The BASE jump appears to have been the most "innocent" thing Ammon did that night.
But this is assuming that the allegations are correct. They haven't been proved correct yet. Ammon should be presumed innocent until he has his day in court.
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
fatty, i didn't say that.
its a comment on page 2 of the chris rock video.
did i forget to leave out the quotes and the ref number, darn!
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
Don't be butt hurt fatty, you are one of the few who actually are looking at the reality of this situation.
I like Ammon, he's a very decent guy, he blew it big time. Did he deserve to get tased, probably not. But the truth is, he's gonna pay for this.
All the other 700+ posts on this thread are of really no value to the facts as we know them to date. Even if they are false from the stand point of the LEO's and the NPS.
The legality of base jumping in the park is an annoying side issue that should be addressed separately.
The tasing issue could be used in his defense, but I doubt it will hold any water.
Ammon is a high profile "character" in the park, he knows this, we know this, the NPS know's this. He chose to do what he did and is going to get hammered for it.
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
see, i have a chp friend, and you know what he tells me?
cya, cover yo ass,
would i make a great attorney or what?
he rif, oj is callin, he wants you to represent him in vegas,
not!
fatty, see here>
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
Hey Spock...
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz................
Apparently your literary skills are not any better than the LEO's in Yosemite.
It's RLF, not RIF.
For you, RIF means, Reading Is Fundamental.
|
|
bmacd
climber
Relic Hominid
|
|
It's likely that being tasered in the neck resulted in plenty of health problems for Ammon, likely well documented, which give Ammon plenty of ammunition for a successful and lucrative "excessive use of force" counter suit against the ranger and NPS, which is why the NPS is doing it's best to pile on charges, which will be used as negotiation tokens in the end.
Ammons lucky the ranger didn't kill him by mistake. Excessive use of force via tazer is a serious problem, which as MH mentions up thread resulted in the death of a polish immigrant at the Vancouver airport. I truly hope Ammon is not suffering long term effects from this incident.
I see this whole thing going Ammons way, not the NPS.
This is not about base jumping in the park, it's about how lethal and dangerous tasers really are, particularly when misused.
edit:
Was the girlfriend videoing the jump and subsequent arrest ? Helmet cam footage too ? Does anyone do anything without taping it these days ?
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
hey rif, it can't all be award winning material,
we use the shotgun approach,
throw out as much b.s. as possible, and if some of it hits, then,
i don't know what.
hey, i'm workin cheap, ya know...
ok, i deleted the "f the po po burn in h" comment.
thats even too harsh by my filthy standards.
besides, we all need the po po when oj is creepin oround the hood with a dagger in his mouth and one glove on,
think of the police as, "a friend with a gun...
or taser, which ever shoots first...
and God's Mercy on you, fletcher hogg,
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
Ok, Sprock, we posted during the same time.
My point is that he broke WAY too many laws at once. I am in no way trying to take the LEO's position, more that this is the way things go.
I'm guessing his resisting was based on the fact that he was trying to shed his "pack" so he could run.
|
|
HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
|
|
Two LEO's had him in hand.
He continued to resist.
They couldn't control him without the taser? And without a Maglite?
COME ON. Were the LEO's 120 lb trainees?
The BrAC (Breathalyzer Alcohol Content) was 0.13. Taken soon after he "had a bottle of beer in his hand" (sic). That's not going to hold up. BrAC is highly dependent on how recently you've been drinking.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
Now that I have read the charges and the officers' account my contention that we lack evidence and so are merely speculating - is even more true than it was before. The arrest was made by two officers and their combined testimony will be crucial. We will not know that prior to the hearing of the case.
Neither the incident nor what has transpired in this thread are something of which we and the climbing community can be proud.
Our performance has been atrocious.
Edit:
"Abe Lincoln would have put a mini ball through the brain of the criminal
who tased Ammon for just jumping off a cliff. "
CC: Can you share with us the basis for your claim?
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
after further review of the documents, i would say as Ammon's parole officer,
"stick to the chronic, the juice makes you make bad decisions"
seriously, a jumper high on weed would freeze immediately and go into a jonathan winters routine.
but then again, a jumper high on weed only would probaly have to be pushed off the cliff.
how could this guy get that crazy on bud lite? thats my question.
must be the adrenaline rush.
he could volunteer for 1000 hours community service cleaning out camp 6.
but i bet he has a 5 year exile from the park.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
The big thing,
AMMON LIED to his friends, BASE community, climbing community, everyone in the country and through the radio.
Wonder if his sponsors will stick with him? Will the community stick by him? His friends should stand by him but tell him that he f*#ked up.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
Ammon HAS a criminal history in Yosemite.
On the record.
5/2006 - Open Container - Pleaded Guilty - Fine = time served(2 days) and $300+
7/2006 - DUI, speeding, Probation Violation - Pleaded Guilty to DUI - Fine = time served(2 days) and $2000
Now part of a official confession.
Multiple BASE jumps
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
MF*#ker, you really seem to have a hard on here about ammon dont you?
edit
come on mf*#ker, what do u have against the guy?
|
|
kaitb
climber
|
|
I think it is time for this thread to come to a halt. Everyone has seen the reports now – what is there more to talk about? There is no need to keep slamming Ammon. There is no need to bring up past incidences as well. Let him be. He has enough on his plate that he is dealing with right now and the last thing he should be worrying about is people in the climbing community bashing him on this thread. I think it all has gone too far. Please, I ask you to leave him alone and to show him some respect.
|
|
Tarz
Mountain climber
Calli
|
|
So she asks to end it and we get the longest reply yet! Nice! If you had an incident, think about it, would u enjoy all the public bantering about it? I doubt it. Leave it...
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
Hey guys,
Kait is Ammon's friend. She has asked that we end this thread now.
In spite of the fact that we all have about a million questions, that the legal aspects of this case are fascinating, that some of the charges appear specious, that we all wonder if the authorities acted fairly and rightly, that there are two sides to every story and we have only heard one, that a competent defence attorney can do a lot to help, and that we are all rooting for our friend the El Cap Pirate, I am going to refrain from any further posts, with the hope that the thread ends here.
May I suggest everyone else do the same? If would be really swell for Ammon if there were no further posts below.
Thank you.
|
|
Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
|
|
but kaity...all these worms won't go back in the can...
|
|
canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
|
|
I just have one question. Is Kait the same GF that he left standing there in the meadow while he ran off to save his own skin? If so, kudos to her for standing by him, as that's clearly more than he did for her.
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
there are a bunch of as#@&%es on this site. leave the guy be....
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
"there are a bunch of as#@&%es on this site. leave the guy be...."
Well, that's all nice, fuzzy and warm, but here's the problem. When you are a high profile, sponsored individual, and you do something like this, there will be repercussions.
This isn't over by a long shot...
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
I've heard this many times from jumpers. I don't know anything about base jumping. Why the NPS has such a hard on over this particular activity is rather baffling to me.
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
Ammon seems like a really good guy. Anyone bashing him is probably jealous of him. He's known for being a great climber and jumper. What have his detractors done? Oh yeah, nothing. Anonymous cowards - forget them.
Lots of wasted resources for a victimless crime. The rangers were just doing their jobs so I don't blame them, except for the tasing, that was weak.
We have the rangers story and Ammon's story. I really hope there's a video to show what really happened, because otherwise Ammon's version will probably be thrown out.
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
C'mon guys, she asked nicely. I'm sure you get it. Let's end it, eh?
Thanks.
|
|
Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
|
|
BASE104 - just wanted to say that I really enjoy reading your posts (always have), as you offer a lot of good info and have a lot of history in the sport.
As for calls to end this thread, Ammon himself has posted more than once, and the discussion has taken its twists and turns,
for better or worse.
Oh, the humanity!
Edit: BASE104 - bummer that you apparently just deleted your last posts; mine now appears out of place.
Your posts actually contained good info that in no way disparaged Ammon; just good common-sense advice.
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
well. those that are pissed cuz he is sponsored can quit buying that sh#t. simple.
bitchin about a guy jumpin off a cliff with a chute are just bitches....by the way, i dont know the man but give him a break....unless you are a perfect bitch that is...
|
|
Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
|
|
Deleting threads is lame.
Period.
|
|
couchmaster
climber
pdx
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2010 - 01:40pm PT
|
I was trying to refrain from posting again and might even get sucked in after this post. As Scott suggests above: this thread will be gone seconds once I see Ammon ask it to be.
Sorry dudes, I've never deleted a thread yet, and deleting threads is lame but not in this case - that's how I roll. Also, for myself: I'm not so quick to blindly accept the police version of events given how many times lately they've gotten caught on camera making sh#t up and lying. I'd believe any version Ammon pitches over any police officers any day. Sorry, but Ammon has been known to be an honest person all his life while you can toss a biscuit anywhere in most large cities and hit a dishonest cop. They'd never let me sit on a jury, but if they move it to Fresno and have a bunch of Latinos sit on the jury....I've known some of those guys down there in Manteca and Merced and they are good solid folks who would most likely believe like me on this.
BTW, unfortunately Coz and Kait - I can't erase it in that sense, just make it disappear to posters, all that everyone has posted above will still be available to law enforcement (not that rumors and innuendo will do anyone any good). Good and the bad, they will be able to see it if they want too.
Good luck Ammon!
|
|
Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
|
|
if the glove don't fit, you must acquit
with due respect to coz n' kait n' pete
it's lame to delete
|
|
Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
|
|
What Couchmaster said is true - if he deleted his OP, all subsequent posts would remain with no chance of further editing.
The only way all posts would disappear would be if an admin deleted the thread, and it would take Ammon requesting
such directly from Chris Mac for that to happen.
Until then...
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
If Ammon were to email the site admin and ask that this thread be deleted, it will be the smartest thing he has done yet in connection with his arrest.
I hope he can pony up for a good lawyer.
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
|
|
as for RESPECT...
early on, someone posted the gist of what was on the official complaint or whatever it is, and then he deleted his post. i emailed that poster and i asked him why he deleted it. he replied and stated plainly that it was possibly less than flattering, and ammon might not really want it posted here.
that's what respect looks like, IMO.
as for the rest of this-
let's just keep on posting so this unflattering thread so that it stays on the front page permanently, shall we?
|
|
HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
|
|
Pardon my naievete but I don't think anything that's been posted here can hurt Ammon's case. It's all either public record or mere speculation, opinion and rant.
However, anyone who's posted here or probably even read here will likely have themselves dismissed from his jury if it comes to that.
The issue of appropriate use of force by the Yosemite LEOs is entirely in order. Or Out of Order in my opinion.
The consequences of failing to stop on command of an LEO is clear.
The various charges and their penalties are informative and somewhat disturbing.
Passionate discussion of this issue seems to me to be entirely appropriate.
|
|
SoyAnarchisto
Boulder climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
And deleting the thread will have zero effect - servers cache and backups - all will be subject to subpoena. Once posted, it's in the public domain - might as well leave it so people can gain historical perspective and waste hours mulling through 800 posts of color commentary. We'll be talking about this for years, guaranteed. Delete this thread, and another will pop up (as it already has).
I have a lot of trouble lumping the base community in with the climbing community, unless of course its more vocal members here are not representative. Bottom line is you have my support until you do dumb sh#t to jeopardize your cause. Jumping illegally is dubious, but doing it while intoxicated, and running from the law when confronted. I don't see much to whine about. He effed up and got caught running. Take your lumps. I keep coming back to the fact that he knowingly and willingly jumped illegally - and I cannot help but think that jeopardizes opening up jumping in the valley more than it helps. If I were a jumper - I'd be pissed at such a selfish act, just like I am pissed to hear of climbers ignoring closures for whatever reason.
I'm all for freedom, too. But your freedom shouldn't hurt other people's potential for freedom.
|
|
Tarz
Mountain climber
Calli
|
|
Very amusing as to how people can't let it end. Seems certain people are so opinionated and perfect in their own ways that they can't leave well enough alone. Free country I guess, but sad that someones ill fortune, whether deserved or not, becomes others fodder.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
Good job Tarz.
Bumped it right to the top.
This thread has made it to the second page.
|
|
wallguy
Big Wall climber
Utah
|
|
|
Sep 11, 2010 - 06:23pm PT
|
Its funny how Kaity, Steph and all of Ammon's friend have so much to say before the real story comes out. Now we learn that Ammon has been an as#@&%e and we are suppose to support Ammon by not posting about it. I wonder if Steph is going to make a video on how its safe to BASE jump while drunk and stoned. You should be ashamed you....NPS Ranger!!
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Sep 11, 2010 - 06:50pm PT
|
In response to much of what has been said, both pro and con re: Ammon: I really couldn't care less whether or not he is "guilty' of some "victimless crime!"
My major bitch is Tasering, on general principles. It is almost ALWAYS an excessive use of force unless a capital crime has been commited! End of story, and my final post on this subject.
|
|
TheBigJohnson
Social climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2010 - 01:45am PT
|
Ammon is a climber that has some amazing short term accomplishments but he will always live in the shadow of climbers like Dean. Steph and all the other friends of Ammon need to remember that Ammon will make you believe in him but at the root of it, he is a pot smoking drunk, that makes the climbing community look bad.
If you want to make BASE Jumping legal, you need to find a person that the community can stand by to show that BASE jumping is something that can be done safely. You can’t just find some Drunk Stoner Bum with a few endorsements who gets caught jumping and runs from the cops with a shity ground crew to be the one to hold the BASE jumping flag as he staggers up to the courthouse. Ammon only waves the flag of disappointment.
BASE jumping while drunk and stoned with an Oz of weed. Ammon, use some common sense and leave the weed at home!!!
|
|
bmacd
climber
Relic Hominid
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2010 - 02:20am PT
|
I find it very distasteful, that the elite decide they can make videos on the subject, start face book pages on the subject, do radio interviews about it, and then believe they can come forward and declare the general public is forbidden to discuss the matter on an open, public forum. You are joking right ?
No part of this discussion has any bearing on the outcome of a court case, unless you are one of the people directly involved and are foolish enough to be posting to this thread
Then asking the climbing community to support a climber whom has clearly broken the law, shows the same poor judgment that was exercised in the first place when the jump was made.
The issue the discussion should center on is taser missuse, which is a serious problem.
Lockers right this has nothing to do with climbing, be wary of those whom are trying to make that connection
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2010 - 02:38am PT
|
Locker,
You can thank Ammon and others like him when your recreation opportunities are severely restricted or eliminated.
That goes for climbers, ATV riders, hikers, hunters, gun shooters, ETC.
Next time there is a Dean Potter incident in Arches, there will be NO climbing there. There is NO BASE in Yosemite and that will continued for a long time if not forever. Don’t forget Hueco Tanks, which was almost lost because of little respect by a few.
Did you know that if you poach a deer in WY that you will be fined $5000, spend 30 days in Jail, and never hunt or fish legally in the Western United States for a very long time?
It is the few bad guys that affect us all. Most restrictions, more closures, higher fines and penalties and more.
Locker, you are pretty short sighted.
|
|
Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2010 - 03:00am PT
|
to quote the inimitable Mr. Way..."so, dude...what's the issue?"
|
|
TheBigJohnson
Social climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2010 - 05:54am PT
|
"I'd venture to say that he's SIMPLY a dude living his life to the FULLEST...
as BEST he can...
While he can..."
That is the point, Ammon doesn’t give a f*#k about anyone but Ammon. He is going to do what ever he wants and screw it up for everyone else. He left his girlfriend in the Meadow while he ran away with his gear. I’m sure the Congressman that everyone is writing to will think that Ammon is a great model citizen for him to stand behind. I’m sure he would love to attach his name to a sh#t bag like Ammon. It will really look good after Ammon’s drunk ass kills himself on a jump.
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2010 - 01:39pm PT
|
to be fair to steph davis, she made a video, from the looks of it, that she just put up for her FB friends, it seemed more about self expression than true public advocacy, IMO.
SOMEONE ELSE then posted a link to the video.
that's not the same as her somehow sending it to the press and to the NPS, or even the same as her posting it here.
just sayin...
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2010 - 01:43pm PT
|
So,.... after the fit hits the shan is it fun to just stand around and point fingers at who has more on them?
|
|
Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2010 - 02:17pm PT
|
Did you know that if you poach a deer in WY that you will be fined $5000, spend 30 days in Jail, and never hunt or fish legally in the Western United States for a very long time?
First, you gotta get caught. I suspect most aren't.
And, geez, you mean if you get caught poaching, you'll lose your hunting privileges? Sorry, but, I can't help but laugh my arse off with that.
-Brian in SLC
PINEDALE, Wyo. (AP) -- Two Utah men have been convicted of various charges stemming from the illegal shooting of a trophy class mule deer buck last year in southwest Wyoming.
The Wyoming Game and Fish Department says Jeremy S. Zumwalt and Gregory L. Carter, both from the Salt Lake City area, were convicted recently in Sublette County Circuit Court.
The poaching incident occurred Nov. 16, 2007, south of Pinedale.
Circuit Court Judge Curt Haws ordered Carter to pay a $5,400 fine and $2,000 in restitution. Zumwalt was ordered to pay $2,000 in fines and $2,000 in restitution.
Both lost their hunting and fishing privileges for 10 years, and both had two-year jail sentences suspended in favor of two years of probation.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2010 - 02:52pm PT
|
This thread continues not because we are concerned with Ammon. It persists because we are trying to learn what we have to learn. My candidates:
1. People are going to do what they are going to do.
2. If there is something admirable it is the person who does the time with a smile. Saying, "Hey that's the breaks. I knew that going in."
3. As a group, we have a lot of work to do.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2010 - 03:37pm PT
|
U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit handed down a big decision against BASE jumping in the Glen Canyon National Recreation Area in 2000.
The big thing is the decision about BASE jumpers being guilty of disorderly conduct. Base jumpers put the general public on the ground at risk.
226 F.3d 989 (9th Cir. 2000)
The safety threat implicated in BASE jumping is most often the potential harm to the jumper due to the fatalities and injuries characterizing the extreme sport. We do not, however, discount the safety risks of BASE jumping posed to members of the public, particularly in areas where people are likely to congregate. See Carroll, 813 F.Supp. at 704 (finding that BASE jumping from the St. Louis Arch, which is located in the eastern part of downtown St. Louis, was hazardous to those on the ground). The appellants respond by arguing that they were jumping in a remote part of Glen Canyon. The evidence shows, though, that there were occasionally other boats in the area. The risk of harm to those on the boats is real as one of the defendants here collided into the BASE jumpers' houseboat. Visitors to the national park, moreover, have no reason to be on guard for BASE jumpers as they might for those taking part in activities which are permitted such as rock climbing or hang gliding. We therefore affirm the district court's determination that BASE jumping can create a risk of harm to the public and defer to the courts' evidentiary findings. See Hoff, 22 F.3d at 224.
|
|
corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2010 - 05:02pm PT
|
locker
someone dies in a traffic accident every 15 minutes in the USA was a stat I saw. By .Gov reasoning cars should have been banned long ago.
Has anyone ever actually (crash?) landed on a pedestrian?
|
|
ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
California
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2010 - 05:27pm PT
|
"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds." Albert Einstein
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2010 - 05:29pm PT
|
"Big mouthes have often encountered heavier reprisals from authoritarian minds." experience,...
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2010 - 05:42pm PT
|
How many miles driven equals a driving death?
How many miles BASEd equals a BASE death?
Or the standard deaths per 100,000 users?
I bet that BASE has higher stats.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2010 - 05:47pm PT
|
Somehow we have come to believe any argument that supports our prior conclusion is good. As is any crime that we successfully get away with.
Like elections themselves, all social questions are a choice between evils. Indeed we could cease to use automobiles, but would the cost to us all then be even higher than that caused by the inevitable accidents? So it is we register cars, require tests of drivers and have traffic law with police enforcement.
As to base jumping we have several negatives including but not limited to: Danger to others. The cost of regulating and managing the activity. Possibly turning our national parks into a form of street theater. Jumps are performances after all.
Has anyone here got a positive sufficient to more than offset the negatives
in the opinion of the majority of our citizens?
Edit:
Radical:
1. Danger to others. True but climbing more often than not takes place away from the general public. High velocity gets management's attention. In climbing the point is not that of falling at high speed. When climbing does start to value high speed our problem will increase. Even speed in either direction if risks are substantially increased.
2. Cost of managing. Authorities have tried to reduce cost by not managing us very much. As our numbers grow this cost will become an ever larger negative to be offset only by fees.
3. Performance. The public is generally too far away to see climbers. And who among the general public wants to go stand in a dusty mosh pit to see sport climbing? With the "Ask a Climber" program Yosemite has accepted a risk, I think, because with Facelift climbers have said, "We want to contribute and be a partner." If I had been at the staff meetings on this decision I expect I would have heard staff discussing educational opportunities for the public.
Yosemite's willingness to bear the cost of YOSAR as required for climbers shows Yosemite has been out in front for a long time. That and the "Ask a Climber" tells me climbers have friends in the NPS. Their efforts to broaden the NPS mission statement will have an uphill fight, however, should individual climbers behave poorly.
Bottom line.
Climbers who really want to become contributing partners need to behave as partners.
After completing my post I see Jeff is saying the same thing.
Am I, an ex-climber, opposed to climbing?
To the extent that climbers do not value conservation of the shared resource and do not respect the rights of others - Yes.
We have not quite reached that point = yet.
|
|
Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2010 - 09:10pm PT
|
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2010 - 09:22pm PT
|
Crowley -- "LEO should be put on a diet, and all it's rangers should trade in their Crown Victoria's for mules."
Well .... as far as the dieting part.
Most of them are fit, lean.
A lot of them can climb 5.12 these days and they do Nose in a day.
No more crown vics as they went to Chevy Tahoe.
As far as mules go, "No way Josey" as they use certified LEO trained horses.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2010 - 09:55pm PT
|
Don't know .....
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2010 - 10:04pm PT
|
Mr. Pirate, you are way to full of yourself.
Did you sign your plea deal yet??
|
|
grunter
Social climber
confusion
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 12:23am PT
|
Sounds like the Rangers are singling Ammon out. I just heard that Ammon has been arrested 3 or 4 times by the f#@king rangers. What the hell. I wonder if he will sue them for harrassment.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 01:09am PT
|
Sounds like the Rangers are singling Ammon out. I just heard that Ammon has been arrested 3 or 4 times by the f#@king rangers. What the hell. I wonder if he will sue them for harrassment.
HAHAHAHA, that fits right in with Ammon did no wrong, rangers made a jumper drown in a river and bad guys should be allowed to run away.
Ammon got caught because he is breaking the law. Ammon gets punished because he puts others in danger.
Go to a MADD meeting and see if you make it out of there talking about drunk drivers being harassed by cops.
Ammon got busted for DUI while on probation for other alcohol violations in 2006 in Yosemite.
|
|
KyleO
Gym climber
Calgary, AB
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 01:28am PT
|
Ammon jumps off El Cap, and the gov't and their drone affiliates arrest him.
Meanwhile, illegal wars have killed thousands of troops and hundreds of thousands of civilians...
and the lowest hierarchy of drones complain, babble and drool about how Ammon has broke the law and should pay for what he has done...
We are bound to fall
|
|
Gabe
climber
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 01:52am PT
|
Good luck my brother for having so much fun....I'm not sure I've been there..Maybe close..
Shall we jam more tunes from our friends? or shall we rest?
|
|
Gabe
climber
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 01:58am PT
|
Easy there Sam. Kinison was A HUGE fan of the punk rock scene. DK SD and alot of bands from the day. Many have relivent political lyrics. It's not a fad but a lifestyle. Speak out, It's encouraged.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 03:09am PT
|
Back in the 20's, the day of the barnstormers and wing walkers, two Stearman would go into perfectly in line and powered vertical dives and a person with no chute would jump off the upper plane and try to catch the wing struts on the lower plane.
Was dangerous if you wound up in one of the props.
An awesome airplane.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 11:16am PT
|
riley-
You been watchin' "Space Cowboys!"
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 12:45pm PT
|
If Ammon was smart he would have;
1) STFU
2) hired the best defense attorney he could
3) hired a civil rights attorney on the theory that the best defense is a good offense
4) continue to STFU
I think I already know how this business is going to shake out.
Big fine, suspended time, and 86ed from the ditch for a while.
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 12:59pm PT
|
I'm guessing if he did request a change of venue, it would be moved to Fresno. He could have a chance if really pursued the tasering as the motivating reason for the change.
Just speculation.
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 01:07pm PT
|
judge is presumed to be impartial, as is the DA, who is only "presenting" the evidence
Impartial judge, usually.
Impartial DA, right next to never.
|
|
Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 01:08pm PT
|
Riley, I'm no medical doctor, but I think the idea of strapping a rocket to your dick is not a good one. Just my two cents.
:)
|
|
Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 02:12pm PT
|
rad- better defer to Crimpie's voice of reason on this one
probably better to go for this ...
rather than
though if anyone could pull it off it would be riley strangelove
|
|
Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 02:51pm PT
|
re: rok's discussion of the legal system.
everyone has a right to a trial by jury. if you insist on it, you'll get it. most lawyers will try to talk you out of it. don't go for it unless you're convinced that your cause is just.
there's a dirty little secret that all the courts and lawyers in the u.s.a. conspire to keep from the public, and that's something called jury nullification. wiki has a good article on this subject.
jesse mcgahey, on another issue, from the YCA website:
"I realize that many of you are probably rolling your eyes at this point about the planning process in Yosemite and the federal government in general, but being actively vocal and involved with this process is your best way of changing the things you don't like about Yosemite and keeping the aspects you love." (my emphasis)
pretty good sentiments. i hope he means it. however, we must note that when the chief ranger decides the agenda of "the planning process" and does not engage the public in determining that agenda, it loses all credibility. a real planning process affords opportunity for the public to intiate issues. that's the real problem with the NPS and most other federal agencies these days. not only is the public out of the loop, but they are discouraged from getting involved in any way that is not controlled. this is contrary to the democratic process. most people haven't seen the real democratic process for so long that they wouldn't recognize it.
like many others who have posted on this thread, my main concern is the use of the taser. was ammon singled out for this, to be made an example of, to strike fear in the hearts of others? wouldn't such use of tasering be illegal?
according to reports here, ammon fled but his girlfriend stayed. in such a case, peaceable law enforcement ought to be a snap. the officer would take the girlfriend into custody, an apparent accomplice to an illegal activity. ammon would surely turn himself in if he has an ounce of honor to his name. might take a day or so. no tasering necessary. ammon did not attack the officer. lethal force was not necessary, either for the officer's safety or the gravity of the offense.
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 03:03pm PT
|
The more I read and think about this incident in particular and BASE jumping in the Valley in general the more I come to these conclusions:
1. BASE jumping does not justify the LEO resources being thrown at it and the penalties for BASE jumping are unreasonably harsh.
2. It is not to the climbing community's benefit to associate itself with BASE jumpers. Doing this has many more cons than pros.
|
|
HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 03:05pm PT
|
The DA is NEVER presumed to be impartial. No more than the defense attorney. Both are advocates. One for the State, one for the defendant.
We make a big mistake when we assume the DA is impartial. Then we begin to believe that she's only going to tell us the truth and will tell us anything that is in the defendant's favor. The prosecutor will stretch the truth as far as possible and will hide as much exculpatory evidence he can get away with. It's the Judge's and defense attorney's job to hold the prosecutor to the truth. And the same the other way around.
It's to the jury to sort out the "truth" the best they can.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 03:15pm PT
|
Currently there is a wide margin of individual discretion on the taser use.
Look for that to narrow to a more definitive set of guidelines as more cases of questionable use get litigated.
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 03:23pm PT
|
Earlier in this thread I wondered what additional legal defenses would be available in a parallel scenario: one in which when an ‘alleged jumper’ with large backpack was first spotted walking in El Cap Meadow and was intercepted by LEOs, the alleged jumper remained completely silent and refused a search and refused to answer any questions without an attorney present.
If he had done that he wouldn't have needed any additional defenses because he would not have been tased or arrested.
|
|
PP
Trad climber
SF,CA
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 04:03pm PT
|
when my friend got a change of venue in the valley, as i posted earlier, the public defender whose office was in a VW bus in the parking lot told him to go into the court and when the judge and DA were about to start he was to stand up and recite " I request a change of venue" and to keep saying it until they gave it. Apparently it worked and off to fresno he went where the judge dropped the charges for letting the air out of a ranger vehicle's tires.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 04:19pm PT
|
Ammon obviously does not have an attorney telling him to STFU.
Ammon used a public defender for his DUI.
Chances are that this case will not get even close to a trial.
Public Defenders are not free in all places if at all. If you are found guilty or take a plea the state/county gets to charge you for the services of the PD.
If you don't follow the court procedure you are in contempt of court. So watch out how much of a scene you want to make in court. It isn't a play ground for children.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 04:29pm PT
|
The PD is often paid and funded less than the DA. and has larger workloads. I always thought that was unfair. Plus the legal system works better when there's competent representation.
You can usually only get a change of venue if there is compelling reason. Not likely here.
If Ammon elected a jury trial, then it might be shifted to Mariposa or Fresno, where they have the resources to deal with it. My impression is that the Yosemite court mostly deals with guilty pleas and sentencing, and non-jury trials for lesser offences. Yosemite is in the Fresno district - last September, the pleas and sentencing of the two Spanish boys was done by videoconference from Fresno, where the judge sits. It seemed a routine thing for the court staff.
Otherwise, the only defence may be to show that there's a reasonable doubt as to identity, in effect that they didn't have reasonable and probable cause to stop Ammon, and that any evidence obtained thereafter shouldn't be admitted, either for that reason or because there was a violation of constitutional rights. The evidence linking what was identified as a basejumper in the air at twilight, to someone walking with a pack in the meadow, may only be circumstantial, and not enough to show probable cause.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 04:39pm PT
|
Wow, I agree with MH. But only the first paragraph.
Cops don’t need probable cause to stop someone. Just mere suspicion. Then it went all downhill for Ammon. Running, resisting arrest, and confession to the crime.
Someone in the meadow with what appears to be BASE gear after a sighting of a jumper = mere suspicion
There was an off duty ranger that probably saw the whole thing. Pretty good witness.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 05:18pm PT
|
Did he really use a PD for a DUI?
|
|
Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 05:25pm PT
|
Tony, use of a taser is not use of deadly force, no matter how many times you say it. The courts do not view it as using deadly force.
According to the officers and prosecuting attorney, there was a way for Ammon to easily avoid the use of force. Comply with their demands to stop, and do not struggle with officers while being placed under arrest. Which is probably the better way to arrest someone for a crime, then letting them flee hoping they turn themselves in later under that f*#king stupid honor theory you cooked up.
you're missing the point, stinkeye. the question is whether such force is appropriate, and consequently whether arrest, with all its legal sanctions, was appropriate in this case. this leads to another question. was ammon singled out for this? was it planned to make an example of him?
use of a taser in resisting arrest may be appropriate, but, as i say, a girlfriend left behind ought to be a no-brainer. law enforcement would look much better dealing through her as an accomplice, pressing charges until ammon gave himself up. it would've made ammon look a lot worse as well. maybe he fled because he didn't want to feel the pain of a tasering. the crux of this matter is not the BASE jump, which seems pretty cut-and-dried, but the circumstances of arrest. the fact that law enforcement chose to taser under these circumstances may indicate that use of the taser was ordered by a superior. premeditated tasering?
as ron says, there aren't any real guidelines for tasering. that use-of-force continuum is totally meaningless and keeps the issue vague, as i'm sure law enforcement prefers it. meanwhile, "don't tase me, bro" sent a brutal message to everyone in the country who may want to confront a public figure like john kerry in a public forum, our right under the constitution. the ammon tasering sends a similar message to would-be BASE jumpers. this is NOT the way government ought to operate.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 05:38pm PT
|
Can a federal magistrate send someone to getmo?
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 05:41pm PT
|
Third time- there might be a message there. Constantly flaunting authority doesn't usually work- do we have the beginnings of a new "Cool Hand Luke."
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 05:44pm PT
|
I like the way in CHL that Paul Newman's character is a returning war hero that gets drunk and starts cutting down the parking meters that have appeared in his absence, getting him sent to the chain gang.
Does the Chief Ranger look anything like Strother Martin?
|
|
Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 05:48pm PT
|
Bet Ammon can eat 50 eggs...
|
|
pc
climber
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 05:49pm PT
|
Donini, I'll get the boiled eggs ready. ;)
IMO Best self torture scene ever.
edit. Brian SLC beat me to the eggs. I'll still supply them.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 05:51pm PT
|
I want to see Ammon eat 50 eggs and then fly the squirrel suit.
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 07:22pm PT
|
GC wrote:
2. It is not to the climbing community's benefit to associate itself with BASE jumpers. Doing this has many more cons than pros.
I have to agree.
I am not commenting on this instance or on Ammon, but I do agree with the above.
Rad climbers are rad, and I support them, go be rad, that's rad.
Rad climbers are also highly visible.
When we all go to the Valley or other climbing areas on Public lands, we all deal on some level (even if it's a very low level) with whatever reality is created by our whole community.
If we all sit around and cheer for rad climbers as they do rad stuff, and then make excuses fr them when they do dumb stuff, well, we are all contributing to the reality that we have to deal with.
And additionally, if we all blame LEO Rangers for chasing a guy who runs away from them, well, you do the math.
(I also suggest not running from Grizzly's or Mountain Lions.
Why not? It's not likey to lead to a good outcome...)
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 08:47pm PT
|
"Otherwise, the only defence may be to show that there's a reasonable doubt as to identity, in effect that they didn't have reasonable and probable cause to stop Ammon, and that any evidence obtained thereafter shouldn't be admitted, either for that reason or because there was a violation of constitutional rights. The evidence linking what was identified as a basejumper in the air at twilight, to someone walking with a pack in the meadow, may only be circumstantial, and not enough to show probable cause."
If he ran when he saw the rangers, as the complaint says, they had cause to stop him for that alone.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 08:52pm PT
|
If they can prove that he knew or should have known that they were rangers. Most likely his word against theirs, but as the rangers were in plain clothes, and it was dusk, that may not help the prosecution.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 09:04pm PT
|
If they can prove that he knew or should have known that they were rangers. Most likely his word against theirs, but as the rangers were in plain clothes, and it was dusk, that may not help the prosecution.
WFT? MH, why are you making things up??
On duty rangers responded and yelled at Ammon "Stop Police". He ran.
Strike against Ammon.
Anything else you want to make up? Why don't you make a video?
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 09:10pm PT
|
Climb in a NP and you abide by the rules, like them or not. I have to say that I love the complete absence of dogs. Climbers who openly flaunt rules and then cry foul do no good for climbing in general. Grownups take their punishment and move on.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 09:10pm PT
|
The Federal Public Defenders are a different tribe from the rest of them. They are usually highly competent and well vetted.
They would be able to steer Ammon the right direction in any case and answer his questions. If he meets the low income requirements, he wouldn't have to pay.
Wishing the best outcome for Ammon
Peace
Karl
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 09:20pm PT
|
Sorry! My misreading, perhaps - the complaint alleges that the two arresting officers were on duty. Presumably in uniform, though it doesn't say.
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 09:37pm PT
|
"do we have the beginnings of a new "Cool Hand Luke."
Hopefully not, look what happened to the original.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 09:55pm PT
|
I'm shakin' it, boss.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 10:32pm PT
|
Wasn't aware of the book, but I can see why the author toned down the character into a more likable anti-hero when he (Donn Pearce) wrote the screenplay with Frank Pierson.
Hell, I just thought he didn't like paying to park where he had done so for free.
Judgmental heads, huh?
So if Ammon plays Luke, who is Dragline? Koko? Society Red? Loudmouth Steve? Boss Godfrey? Boss Paul? And, of course, the Captain?
Did you know that when Strother Martin first moved to Hollywood before he got parts he worked as a swimming instructor?
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 11:13pm PT
|
So you've got the shades and when you hold your cane overhead a trustee brings your (boltless) rifle?
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 11:26pm PT
|
"Climb in a NP and you abide by the rules, like them or not. I have to say that I love the complete absence of dogs. Climbers who openly flaunt rules and then cry foul do no good for climbing in general. Grownups take their punishment and move on."
Spot on Jim. But don't worry. Your accurate commentary will be completely ignored.
Really Jim, I suggest you smoke sh#t loads of pot, then you can be hip and scream F*#K THE MAN.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 11:40pm PT
|
Maybe this public servant will get the chance to work with Ammon again.
|
|
elcap-pics
Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2010 - 11:49pm PT
|
Hey NY Neil... interesting idea.... so you wanted him to make up a story and lie his way out of it and then perhaps go into federal court and lie under oath? That is the so called "chongo tactic". Maybe he could get a bunch of guys to go in there and lie along with him and surely the court would believe them and not the arresting officers or the evidence!! That is so funny.... does the truth mean anything? Are we completely without integrity any more? Is there no such thing as "taking responsibility for your actions" any more? I think I know Ammon well enough to believe he will do the right thing and not resort to fabricating some fanciful story. Lying under oath is a much bigger deal than jumping off EC.
MTucker... man, you are a harsh dude...
I know Ammon has gotten legal advice and will do the best he can for himself. Sometimes it is a lot less trouble and expense to make your best deal and get the hell out of the situation. Lawyer fees can quickly bleed you dry... I know from experience. Oh I see from the above post that he is using a PD... so no fees... hope he will turn out to be happy with his choice.
Also, I was talking to some folks in the know, today, who said that NPS gives you back your jumping gear after the trial is over or when you plead out ... so that would take some of the financial sting out of it for him.
Best of luck Ammon... you have many friends who are pulling for you!!
|
|
Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2010 - 12:02am PT
|
Rumor has Dragline living near Boise....hmmm...
"Come on safety pin pop"...
Edit to add, life is stranger than friction:
http://www.auntjoyscakes.com/about_us.html
Was the OW climb named after Aunt Joy?
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2010 - 12:44am PT
|
Squirrel on squirrel tasering!
Is there no end to this obscenity?
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2010 - 01:11am PT
|
Spot on Jim. But don't worry. Your accurate commentary will be completely ignored.
lol
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2010 - 01:53am PT
|
"Hey boss, man needs a brown bomber and a dose o' salts."
|
|
Gabe
climber
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2010 - 02:15am PT
|
Karl, Thanks man, your post has great merit.
Tom, thanks also, you know that Ammon is a man of integrity as are you my friend.
This was all because people want to have fun even if it is not the kind we want to have, right?
I hope you all enjoyed my drunken posts from last night., thought a bit 'O levity was in order. Keep smiling or you have nothing. Later friends. Gabe
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2010 - 02:46am PT
|
Mtucker, why do you hate Ammon so much? Did you catch him in bed with your wife, or do you have a crush on him that he won't reciprocate? Seriously, he must have really gotten under your skin for you to be so obsessed.
|
|
thedogfather
climber
Somewhere near Red Rocks
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2010 - 10:02am PT
|
from a previous post in this saga:
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
Sep 3, 2010 - 04:51pm PT
I have been waiting for that one. You guys are slow on the draw. I truly expect so much more.
Nope, I am just a jilted lover.
He stole my girl and she left with no word. She still has never confessed.
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2010 - 10:16am PT
|
If Mtucker can't keep his girl, he should be angry at himself, or the girl. Not Ammon.
|
|
canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2010 - 11:06am PT
|
If his GF was willing to be left standing in a meadow while the new BF ran off, she wasn't much to begin with. LOL.
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2010 - 11:20am PT
|
Climb in a NP and you abide by the rules, like them or not.
There are lot's of rules broken by climbers all the time. 2 week limit. Speeding etc. It's not that simple.
Climbers who openly flaunt rules and then cry foul do no good for climbing in general. Grownups take their punishment and move on.
The main foul here was tasing in the back of the neck. Crying foul about this brings it to light and hopefully prevents it from happening again for other crimes that don't deserve it. Take the punishment for BASE quietly sure, but the tasing...
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2010 - 11:36am PT
|
The NPS is out of control.
They know what they can get away with and their culture assures that they will do just that.
There needs to be some form of oversight, some accountability.
For example;
after the muzzle sweeping episode at Manure Pile a few months ago I wrote a very polite but concerned email to the Yo site.
They ignored it.
So I wrote an inquiry about it a month later.
They ignored that one too.
They have big carpets to sweep crap under.
|
|
Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2010 - 12:11pm PT
|
is the delusion of influence an illusion?
|
|
Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2010 - 12:12pm PT
|
It's a delusion of grandeur.
|
|
Fluoride
Trad climber
Hollywood, CA
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2010 - 12:49pm PT
|
Ammon's in court this morning in Yos. Anyone there? Outcome? I know Ansel Evans just rolled in for the season, I think he'll be there.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2010 - 12:56pm PT
|
Somebody slip him the recipe for raisin jack, just in case.
|
|
blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2010 - 01:30pm PT
|
Climbers who openly flaunt rules and then cry foul do no good for climbing in general. Grownups take their punishment and move on.
The word is flout, not flaunt.
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2010 - 02:22pm PT
|
Thanks so much for your correction- another ray of brilliance from Boulder.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2010 - 02:32pm PT
|
No box, but he might have left his dirt in Boss Kean's ditch,..
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2010 - 02:55pm PT
|
From the production notes on Cool Hand Luke;
The set for the chain gang camp was north of Stockton, CA and a ton of moss was shipped in bales from Louisiana as set dressing.
After building the set , but before the crew arrived, a San Joaquin County building inspector happened upon it and, thinking it a new migrant worker camp, promptly condemned it and posted notices.
The scene with the convicts sanding the asphalt actually had the actors blacktopping a mile of road for the county.
|
|
blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2010 - 03:55pm PT
|
Climbers who openly flaunt rules and then cry foul do no good for climbing in general. Grownups take their punishment and move on.
The word is flout, not flaunt.
... actually, it works either way.
No it doesn't. The word openly is redundant if flaunt were intended. Flaunt doesn't really work for other reasons, but the above is enough to end the discussion.
Thanks so much for your correction- another ray of brilliance from Boulder.
It sounds like you want to engage in some sarcastic whining, so you'd fit in Boulder well.
Some people like to read and right in English--you're apparently not one of them, but that doesn't mean you speak for the group.
|
|
Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2010 - 03:56pm PT
|
Some people like to read and right in English--you're apparently not one of them, but that doesn't mean you speak for the group.
And some people spell correctly...am I right? Or am I write?
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2010 - 04:11pm PT
|
We'll probably have to wait till the ink is dry and posted on PACER.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2010 - 04:16pm PT
|
I just want Ammon to get legal fairness. Hear, hear!
Whatever happened, and whether or not base jumping should be legalized in Yosemite, and whether or not climbers have a similar interest to basejumpers in this, pretty much all of us want to see that Ammon gets a fair shake in the legal system.
|
|
blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2010 - 04:38pm PT
|
And some people spell correctly...am I right? Or am I write?
At least I won't start arguing that it makes sense either way (RJ) or complaining that you had the audacity to try to improve the English used on this site (Donini).
Anyway, I was just trying to correct a common word choice error (flout/flaunt) and thereby improve the literacy of SuperTopoians. If you want to correct simple typos, seems like a waste of time, but no skin off my back.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2010 - 04:44pm PT
|
I guess even Fattrad is having a tough time with the cold, hard realism of the legal system. How many years to you have vested in the “system”?
I said it before that you need to read my posts like it was Ben Stein giving you a lesson. I should charge my regular rate on this site.
Too much emotion has clouded the realism of this story.
Ammon is in a tough spot. I doubt that most people here will see the final disposition of this case as “fair”. There is a lot stacked against him.
A lot of you should be super bummed that Ammon has lied to himself and all the people that care about him. A true friend would help him. Not with just wishing the best in court or crying that the cops suck but by helping him with the causes of his troubles.
|
|
Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2010 - 05:38pm PT
|
Ammon doesn't play banjo, by chance?
Anyone know if he needs a plastic Jesus?
When you start arguing verb tense and grammar (and spelling...)...
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2010 - 07:48pm PT
|
It's so funny that the 2 posters on this thread who claim everyone else is stupid are 2 of the biggest dipshits on this site.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2010 - 08:24pm PT
|
I want to get post 1000 but those of you that keep deleting is making that hard.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2010 - 08:32pm PT
|
Insert on any thread
It's so funny that the 2 posters on this thread who claim everyone else is stupid are 2 of the biggest dipshits on this site.
The Fet and coz??
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2010 - 10:27pm PT
|
I gotta hunch you're one of them...
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2010 - 11:16pm PT
|
Yeah, I probably am. People tend to not like hearing the truth.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 12:35am PT
|
Yeah, I probably am. People tend to not like hearing the truth.
Second that!!!
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 12:36am PT
|
Yeah, I probably am. People tend to not like hearing the truth.
I ment "Me Too"!!
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 04:05am PT
|
Ammon made mistakes and he will have to face the consequences, but the maximum sentence Ammon might receive is 6 months.
MTucker is stuck being MTucker for the rest of his life. If that isn't a life sentence to a punishment worse than prison, I don't know what is. Long after Ammon has put this behind him and is enjoying life, MTucker will still the same upset and unhappy person that he is today.
|
|
BASE104
climber
An Oil Field
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 05:17am PT
|
WARNING THIS MAY GET A LITTLE LONG
I have posted on this thread before, but when even PTPP chimed in to stop it, I nuked them. So this will not really be about Ammon. I have heard from some of his friends, who I trust, that he is a great guy. So was Walt Shipley, but he caused his share of legendary trouble.
I pretty much said that I don't hold anything against rangers, but tasing sounds a little over the top. I don't know what went down. Only Ammon and the officers know, and there will be a huge rumor mill over it. Maybe it was justified or not. I am not taking an issue here on that matter.
Yosemite developed a huge hard on for hunting down BASE jumpers which began in the early eighties, continues to this day (perhaps..I can't read minds)..and spread to any unit of the NPS, including National Monuments and National Recreation Areas.
The only exception is that the landing area at the base of the New River Gorge is on NRA land, and the NPS issues a permit for one day a year. On that day, the bridge can have way over 50,000 people lining the rails, and they pretty much come to watch the jumping. The locals would revolt if the NPS tried to stop it. They have to eat crow on that one. And that is a shame.
I have been thinking a lot about the whole thing today and would like to revise a few earlier comments.
The NPS gave skydivers (there were no real BASE jumpers back then) independence to jump legally for a short period of time. The jumpers behaved very badly, and I do not blame the NPS for banning it however they could, even though they had to find an obscure law written long before, to enforce it. There were no real BASE jumpers. Only skydivers, and they were an incredibly unruly lot.
So, as happens even in countries, they can gain independence before they are able to rule themselves. There are many examples of this from after WWII, the most famous example being India. If it were not for Gandhi being so revered, the violence between Hindus and Muslims would have been much worse. So the British, although pretty much milking the poor in India, had kept violence relatively under control. Gandhi even recognized this, and held little ill will towards the British, other than the poverty that they often inflicted.
My point is: It is blatantaly obvious that jumpers had their moment of independence long before they were responsible enough to shoulder the responsibility. The stories handed down to me were a series of serious flaunting of rules that were really pretty simple. Some of the worst offendors were totally reviled.
That was thirty years ago. Jumping has pretty much detached itself from the skydiving crowd and developed a strict set of ethics to follow. I was around when those were first popping up, but the 20 hardcore jumpers in the world could not control some bozo from a dropzone coming in and screwing things up over and over. And it happened. We just shook our heads. There may have been a favorite building going up..when roof access is easy. It gets jumped every night that the wind isn't howling. Then some person calls all of the TV stations and does it in the daytime. Man, that did not go down well back in the day. A building can be done hundreds of times without anyone but perhaps a friendly security guard and the local police who come to watch at 3:00am. You always look for any approaching traffic or anyone walking even near the building. Actually landing on someone is darn near impossible in the middle of the night, but we always made sure nobody was even close enough to see. We didn't want to be seen. AT ALL. It is happening like this all over the world as I write this.
This is pretty touchy feely for me, but all of us have a little devil in our hearts. The trick is to ignore it. Everyone has it. Some more than others, but it is not the property of any broad group. It is individual character. I have realized way too late in life that the little devil is what leads to all sorts of inexcusable behaviour. Wars and stuff. My being such a little snot. Trying to develop what is good in your heart is the best path. Not holding a grudge or trying to "get even."
There have been in the past, abuses of BASE jumpers by rangers, and to this day, the punishment is huge compared to other misdemeanors of this class. Jumping is a misdemeanor, but it is in a class of serious misdemeanors. That is only for your education, because I see a lot of bad info posted by climbers who couldn't find a riser or pick a bridle length. There have been some big names post on this thread, and I just shake my head at their ignorance.
What I see this as, and always have since my first days, was that it is an act of civil disobediance against an unjust interpretation of an old law. I am not aware of any violence, but it probably has happened in at least some minor way. One act of violence against a peace officer would set things back a zillion years. It must never happen. If you are getting beaten or tasered, you should not fight back. Now everyone hits the ground running whether there is a ranger around or not, but when you are caught, you should just allow them to do their job and not cause them problems. Being a cop is a risky job. I understand that. But I implore them to not become emotional about this and allow any venom from previous policies and incidents to invade their thought. And venom does invade the thoughts of all too many human beings. Usually totally justified in their own minds. Just scroll through the posts and try to pick out people who could use a lesson from Werner. Ridding yourself of venom actually feels pretty good, but I have a long way to go.
However, jumpers have long crossed the line where they can regulate themselves. It happens at Bridge Day every year. There have been a couple of fatalities there in the far past, but most of this was just due to really bad gear and not being what we call "current." Current is where you may do 20 jumps a month, instead of doing two or three over a ten year period. All BASE jumpers are in no way equal. The legal Malaysian jumps from the Kuala Lampur tower are more or less by invitation to weed out the riff raff, and they loved it over there. It goes on fairly freely in Europe, where the absolute edges of what is currently possible are being explored. Yosemite is sort of a backwater now to the real goings on. What began as an American invention is now taken to the edge by people from other countries, along with those who travel to jump with them.
But jumping goes on in the valley and always will. It will not end, but it probably happens less as time goes by. It is normally a discrete activity with no victims. And I am perfectly willing to argue the victimless part. It isn't like doing 60 in a 35. You kill people that way. Driving drunk also is famous for killing people. I have no sympathy for that type of behaviour anymore. Many here have certainly done it, but in my old age I see the real wisdom against a crime that is truly without excuse. I am lucky that I quit drinking beer years ago, because I drove myself home from more than a few parties. I could have easily killed someone due to my actions.
There is something about the hearts of men in general. There is that little demon that all of us must learn to ignore. This applies to the entire human race. My only referrence to Ammon here is that the time of day that he jumped was really unusual and certainly not very discrete.
But I have never wavered against a law that I consider unjust. There is a way to address it. Do not be violent and do not resist if you are caught and imprisoned. Not only that, do not hold ill will towards those who do the capture, no matter how out of line you may think they get. If you take it and not resist, they will eventually see that they are behaving like dangerous fools. It is the whole notion of passive resistance. Simply do not give the NPS a reason to hate jumpers. Let them see that the hatred simply comes from the little devil in their own hearts.
It has often appeared as great sport hunting humans who will not shoot back, and I know of a couple of instances where huge amounts of LEO resources were wasted trying to catch someone who hadn't even jumped. Geez. After a couple of hours they are gone. Go set up a DUI roadblock. Seriously. I am probably the only jumper who listened in on the old SAR pagers during a jumper dragnet. I didn't even have a pager. I just stood next to someone who did. It was great entertainment for the climbers, but scouring the valley most of the day with 8 or so on duty rangers is a little over the top. This isn't catching killers here.
To those who have never played the game as a way of life, I am sorry that so many of you have very little understanding how it really works. Not much I can do about that but to show through action. That the NPS has really nothing to fear from jumpers. They come from every walk of life that you can imagine, and from day one, women were highly involved. I have jumped with drug addicts, doctors, lawyers, special forces and other military, hey, you name it. The full spectrum other than race.
The only thing it takes is a certain type of mind. It is serious and stressful, but some minds become hyper aware during a jump. Others will just shut down from sensory overload. You find out who fits the bill at the skydiving dropzone. It is not best to do it at a jump site. That is how people get killed doing things that seem on the surface to be totally boneheaded. Their brains were not working. You wouldn't believe how many first jump students come down with absolutely no memory of their jump.
I can understand that it looks like some sort of stunt, but it is not at all for a jumper. Perhaps it was thirty years ago, but something like El Cap is now a very safe jump for anyone with experience with the equipment, which is now highly evolved. You could take an old fart like me, and I would do a wager that I could jump El Cap 1000 times without incident.
I spent time not only being a dirtbag climber whose life was spent at the Cookie all day flailing, occasionally on El Cap or Half Dome, and deeply loved Yosemite long before I ever jumped there. The climber/jumper hybrid was very new at the time, and I became immersed in jumping. All of my close friends were climbers, but I skydived a lot as well, and was good enough at it to be on competition teams. So I was very competent. But any idiot should be able to do even a weak track and end up 200 or 300 feet from the wall at opening. You would have to actually try to hit El Cap with modern gear and technique.
It is a wonderful experience. I don't know if I can explain it, but if you have ever done something that gave you a total feeling of clarity, free from thought, then that is what a long, terminal velocity jump is like. I always think that Werner is seeking this same experience. Free from thought. You do not need to think. You DO. The thinking takes place when you are not jumping. It is almost like religion. With that, you see people all over the world trying to connect with God. And I tell ya, lots of people have been treated far worse over their religious beliefs than what happens to a jumper when caught. It is silly even to compare jumping with real persecution.
Unfortunately, since it is not considered legal at this time, anyone can go do it, and that lead to some problems and accidents in the past and probably will in the future. I know of several rescues (the ones I know of were fairly easy ones), but you have SAR having to shoot bean bags to climbers on the annual rescues, where climbing accidents put people at risk on a regular basis. I really covet that job, though. That last one that Lober zipped over to the injured climber on the Nose was just too cool. How do you even GET that job? People's feelings for Lober aside, that was a brave act that saved a life. I would be chomping at the bit to be able to do that. Somehow I doubt he will give it up willingly.
But the real jumper crowd is much like climbing was. To keep things under control, which they were not able to do back in the eighties, and not just in Yosemite, a system of ethics had to be developed in jumping. People were always getting out of control and burning sites. I have been reading The Great Book of Base, and it has now really evolved, much like climbing, but without as much bickering. About the worst thing you can do for a site is to die. Then next comes get hurt, then the next comes in the realm of attracting attention. Getting busted, for example. Then pile on a bunch of other charges and you get another nightmare.
The only way that this will ever turn out in the jumpers favor is to do it safely, and discreetly, and often, which has never been much of a problem, other than the often part, which I feel is waning. Ammon was practically begging to get busted. That, along with the other charges just make the whole thing look bad, while at the same time, it has long been going on all over the valley in relative peace. And if you do it right, nobody even knows.
El Cap is the most beautiful jump in the valley, but by no means the only one. It is beautiful, but there are better ones with a super low bust factor.
I will try to describe it. If you are experienced, it may be no big deal. Certainly jumping the same antenna got a little old after 25 times. First, the conditions. If it is windy, you turn around and walk down. I have backed off of more jumps than I did, simply because I didn't think the conditions were right, or for no reason at all. This happens all of the time, and trust me, after climbing a 1500 foot antenna only to see a wind switch has taken place, you just climb back down and do it another day. There is a real science behind jumping, and it has grown incredibly since my days. Even then, the risks were being identified and fixed. Now it has gone totally space age.
So I always got this little tremble. Not really fear, but more like a race horse sitting in the blocks. You sit and ponder, all of the normal things. Then you jump. Instantly the entire face of El Cap explodes into view and your mind achieves total clarity. You begin a track, and by the time you dump around El Cap tower, you are hundreds of feet from the wall. Tracking is how skydivers seperate in the air from each other, and at terminal it is around 60 mph or so without a wingsuit, which throws it into an entirely different realm. But just tracking takes place on virtually every skydive. It is easy to learn. Just turn your body position into a ski jumper. Skydiving is a blast. Flying your body is fun, but it is also extremely hard to become really good at. Good being relative. Just learning how to get stable and track is easy. Competition skydivers can do just about anything it seems.
So, the SECOND that the valley opens up in the darkness, you see the incredible chiseled wall totally visible even in relative darkness. El Cap may be the most beautiful cliff on Earth. To the climber onlooker it seems as if you are going a zillion miles per hour. To you, it seems incredibly slow. There is this headspace where time dilates and everything slows down. El Cap tower is a monster landmark, and it comes up very slowly. The entire experience isn't like some stunt. It is incredibly beautiful and peaceful. I can still remember actual smells on my first El Cap jump. It is such an otherworldly experience that it is burned into my brain.
Werner probably has no problem with clarity of the mind, but I tell ya, from my jumping experience I would have to say that the Hindus are on to something. It is an experience that is searingly beautiful, and far less dangerous than speeding on the loop road. And far more responsible.
When you get open, you go into security mode and there are a number of things you can do which are always changing and adapting.
This was all before the days of cell phones and climbers with radios, of course. Now I would be half afraid that they would call you in, something that was unthinkable for a climber to do back in the day. Guys like Leavitt and Slater and Oxx and Cosgriff had all dabbled in it a little bit. When Will Oxx got out of the service, I believe, that was when he went on a true rampage, and opened up some of the best sites in the United States.
However, the deep venom of the NPS really all got started in that first trial period when the jumpers were in no way cohesive, were roudy, and not ready or even capable of controlling themselves. Skydivers in that day were the bikers of the sky, and even took pride in violating rules at the Drop Zone, and then unfortunately in the Valley. It was a nightmare to watch for the skydivers. I believe several were even booted out of the USPA. So the NPS attitude has not changed much, if at all, while the jumpers have changed tremendously. But that NPS attitude has followed the jumpers for almost thirty years, while BASE has utterly changed.
There are now plenty of places to jump legally, but most are small cliffs and you can only take a very short free fall. It takes a few seconds to get enough airspeed to fly around..which you can do if you have ever seen 300 skydivers jump out of a whole series of airplanes in formation and go directly to their slot in a formation. Like the people who have to dock backwards to build a 64 way jewel. Getting stable, turning if needed, and tracking are such trivial acts of skill that those alone would make you a baby at a DZ. Yosemite has some really big cliffs that you can reach terminal velocity on and really cover some ground. 14 seconds used to be a big deal (don't go that long on El Cap!), but now with wingsuits, flights can last minutes.
My only plea here is for the NPS to stop carrying around that venom. It eats common sense alive. Realize it for what it has become. It isn't a stunt. It isn't for recognition. It is just people doing something that is in no way violent, and incredibly intense. I compare the big terminal velocity jumps to surfing or something. You can get really sucked into it, the experience is so amazing. You don't feel like you are falling. You are flying your body. End of story, there.
I have already stated that I myself consider it probably inappropriate in Yosemite. That place has enough problems, what with several million visitors a year who need to have liquor and hotels to stay in. Just look around. The real crime in Yosemite is what we have done to it. Every jumper added up has done less harm to Yosemite than the building of a single foot of asphalt road. Some day there will be a bar with a deck full of telescopes to oogle the climbers in El Cap meadow. Lots of money to be made there. I say tear it all down and give it back to Lucy and her kin.
I even checked with a guy on the peregrine project to see if we were bothering the nest over on the Ranch. Nope.
I should get my ass back into the game after all this time. If caught, I would refuse to pay the fine and ask for the maximum sentence in jail. If enough people did that, it would become readily apparent that the punishment does not fit the crime. But hey, why bother with Yosemite these days? It is a wonderful place to jump, but there are better spots in europe now. BASE jumpers come from everywhere now. It is big in Russia for god's sake.
And the worst thing that came out of the whole Connelly child molestor era is that it bled into the other lands underneath the NPS. Lake Powell for instance. Nobody even knew about that until someone died way back in the day. I opened that place up, and we didn't even know we were doing anything wrong. We weren't creating a spectacle or even straining Lake resources. It took place up a side canyon with little traffic. And when we saw a boat around, we waited until it left. Discretion, you know. Then jumpers got greedy, lazy, and burned it.
The world is filled with foolish people and foolish laws. Perhaps the fools will only realize that they are being foolish when they start throwing jumpers into prison.
And to make this clear for the powers that be who read this. The statute of limitations on me ran out almost twenty years ago. I am not advocating breaking the law. I am thinking out loud, and I do believe that it is still legal to think and share my thoughts.
And really. I don't hold the rangers in a bad light. There are always situations where it is easy to point fingers without knowing the facts. Unfortunately, the jumpers have had their share of bad apples spoil the pot over the years. I am sure that LEO has had their share as well. They are better at keeping it quiet, though.
I would be interested to hear the point of view of law enforcement on this topic. Not that guy who posts twenty times a day on this thread who seems full of hate. I would enjoy sitting down and asking WTF?
Why export this culture of hatred and manhunting to a place like Canon de Chelly, where they loved us and we were free for years with the full knowledge of the park service?
Why Lake Powell? Don't you guys have better things to do than to pull off all active duty officers for a full day just to try to catch a jumper? I saw that happen twice. And they were the wrong guys. It was like the opening day of deer season.
|
|
ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
California
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 05:50am PT
|
MTucker, I send you all the best. I am not full of myself, but full of LIFE. You should try and search for one… it’s amazing.
Nice post 104
Court went well, they offered me a reasonable deal, dropping most of the charges, (of course) but had to hold out on one issue, so I obviously plead not guilty. The new magistrate seems like a fair judge and good character.
Oh, and my attorney said it was ok to post here because it’s only the internet and it doesn’t count, haa haa
Good will towards supertopians/us, cheers
|
|
enjoimx
Trad climber
SLO Cal
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 07:07am PT
|
Good to hear. Base104, your post was great!
|
|
Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 07:33am PT
|
Base, thanks for taking the time to share your experience and perspective.
Cheers,
DD
|
|
Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 08:34am PT
|
just a little advice, pirate. if this gal decided she liked you better, just be happy about it--if you really are happy about it, that is. the poopiest thing anyone can do in your situation is to try to give advice to the former boyfriend based on her pillow whisperings about what she didn't like about him. and i do hope the ranger was nice to her after you hightailed it on outa there.
having been through all that a couple times, mtucker, i can only say that you may look back one day and figure that ammon did you a favor here. those lost girlfriends don't look nearly as good after a few years' retrospective.
that said, thanks to 104 for a thoughtful post, worth every word. a little reminder: this is a climber's site, despite uncle mcnamara's obvious interest in BASE. me, i like to think. i don't need to clear my mind artificially. thinking is one of the best things humans can do. a lot of us try to escape it. if you're trying to do that, you probably should learn to think differently. and c'mon back to climbing if BASE starts to get boring.
|
|
MisterE
Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 08:57am PT
|
Great post, Base! Thanks for taking the time to write down your thoughts and share them.
i don't need to clear my mind artificially.
Tony - not sure how jumping is clearing your mind artificially. From Miriam Webster:
a : lacking in natural or spontaneous quality
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 09:35am PT
|
Long live BASE. I'll probably never do it, but I sure get a rush out of reading your stories and watching the squirrel flyers. Too cool. You guys are like Superman.
Personally, I think the LEOs like the chase. It is the only thrill in their lives. Go figure. Maybe they should start jumping and flying rather than tasing people?
I will stick to flying my wing fully open and generating lift before my feet leave the ground.
Paragliding regards, blue skies, and happy landings,
Klimmer
|
|
MisterE
Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 09:58am PT
|
there are many definitions of artificial, misterE, and i think you're choosing to miss my point.
No, I was asking for clarification. I stated: Tony - not sure how jumping is clearing your mind artificially.
Now, who is choosing to miss the point?
|
|
Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 10:21am PT
|
i'm not sure either, erik, since i've never done it. i'm just taking 104's word for it.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 01:54pm PT
|
Jeff cuts to the heart of the problem.
They are cops that don't get many criminals to practice on.
Sooooooooo,..........
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 02:08pm PT
|
Hmmmm, I've never felt that fatty was full of hate.
Interesting. Inaccurate in my opinion, but interesting none the less...
|
|
Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 02:18pm PT
|
i think we need to work fatty over a little. seems like a mellow fellow, perhaps a little too mellow for what he promises. for example, he's promised to get williamson rock reopened to climbers singlehandedly through his connections to republican big-shots.
(drumming my fingers on the table here ... continuing to drum them ...)
oh, sorry. wasn't sure if that was going to happen before facelift, after facelift, or when we get a republican majority in congress and/or a republican president again. perhaps he could clear that up.
|
|
Gene
Social climber
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 02:33pm PT
|
Best wishes Ammon! Hoping for the best possible outcome for you.
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 03:04pm PT
|
Base104..
Spiritual gurus could learn some lessons from you. Awesome post.
...
I think Base is talking about Tucker, not Fatty. Though I could be wrong.
|
|
BASE104
climber
An Oil Field
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 03:33pm PT
|
No...fatty. You have been pretty reasonable on this whole thing.
Just that one guy. I don't know what his deal is. I hope he can open his eyes if he feels like it.
And I was specifically not talking about LEO in Yosemite. That will do no good, and I have to believe that they are professionals. Even though you know and I know and everyone who ever spent a few years sleeping in the dirt has had some hassles with them.
Example: I hear a lot of Lober hating, but then you read the JesseM post on that Nose Rescue. Lober was the man on that one. So people are never black and white.
Good luck, Ammon. Out of this entire thing that you are going through, and so many others have as well, it is the gear seizure that seems so unfair.
The aerial delivery law has been taken to a court of appeals once. I can't remember the entire details it was such a mess.
But where does the judge come off taking away thousands of dollars worth of gear? They sure don't take away someone's car in a DUI, which I consider far more serious.
But hey, I will at least buy you a new pilot chute. I have given pretty freely to both Layton Kor and Jim Bridwell. All connected together through the brotherhood of the rope, ya know.
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 04:16pm PT
|
"Can you tell us what was the offer they made and what they told you were the expected outcomes in terms of penalties if you did/didn't take the first offer? That can't affect your case,"
The hell it can't! Take Fattrad's advice and keep quiet.
|
|
ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
California
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 05:11pm PT
|
Tony Bird, thanks for the advice but your WAY off BASE and jumping to too many conclusions, no pun intended.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 05:14pm PT
|
Ammon, you have deeper problems than just going to court for this case. Alcohol, honesty, caring for others, ETC.
So which of the five are you still not guilty of? Would be ridiculous to drop the BASE jump charge.
Still claiming “I did nothing wrong”. By official accounts, that is not true. There is a history of being caught and not facing the music. Same with the DUI “I did nothing wrong”. Yet, speeding along and drunk. Kept saying “I did nothing wrong” till you signed the line, “I am guilty”.
How many other crimes have you not done? I have only looked Yosemite criminal records.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 05:14pm PT
|
I think whoever makes post #1000 should be tased!
(looking for a "No, I am Spartucus!" series of posters saying; No, tase me!)
|
|
bmacd
climber
Relic Hominid
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 05:18pm PT
|
BASE104 = best supertopo post for 2010
|
|
ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
California
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 05:26pm PT
|
MTucker, nobody's perfect. Life is good, you should stop hating so much and try to enjoy it. Cheers!
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 06:02pm PT
|
|
|
Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 06:09pm PT
|
too bad you didn't intend them--they were pretty good puns.
just going by the rumor mill here--we were encouraged at one point to speculate wildly.
|
|
BASE1361
climber
Yosemite Valley National Park
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 06:10pm PT
|
Ammon.... try to understand MT tucker is a little upset cause the only pussy he gets is from f*#k'n his cat. MT tucker... silly faggot, suck'n dicks is for chicks.
I've known Ammon for years and sorry MT tucker but your a little man full of a lot of HATE. Hate towards a sport you don't do nor understand. HATE for a person you are making assumptions about. I laugh at you and all your self righteous posts. Cause as previous stated... your a cat f*#ker. SO really can anyone take anything you say serious??? answer is NO ;)
Ammon is someone who is out living life. In the 10 years I've known him he has NEVER trashed anyone. Even if he doesn't agree with their POV... to each their own.
Mt tucker will die a sad old hateful little man.
Cheers Ammon. I'm stoked that you are enjoying the "Classic" and the fit was just right.
From you know who.... Giddy up Ammon.
Aaarrrrggghhh.
|
|
BASE1361
climber
Yosemite Valley National Park
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 06:33pm PT
|
BASE104
Well said. You do put into words an experience that truly is unique and beautiful. You put a perspective that similar to climbing BASE is a way of life.
You were at the inception of the sport today known as BASE jumping. It's a honor to read the history and views you shared in your "long" post.
Well said.
Live life like you're gonna DIE..... cause you're gonna.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 07:55pm PT
|
MTucker
You have zero credibility. You say people should man up and respect the law yet YOU remain anonymous.
You have a huge ass boner for Ammon yet you remain anonymous.
Seems pretty pussy ass to me.
A guy that preaches to the choir would at least identify himself.
Ammon identified himself .......
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 08:08pm PT
|
MTucker
Everything you're doing here is wrong.
You're spitting at Ammon over the fence.
That's outright cowardice.
You can't back up any of your words when you remain anonymous.
Preaching right, wrong and law and exhibiting full cowardice and anonymity will be your downfall in the future .....
|
|
elcap-pics
Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 08:08pm PT
|
Ammon... talked to winky today and he said things are looking way up for you... Sweet... hope it all gets to be the best for you... looks like you got some good legal advice and that is what we all were hoping for... all the rest is just so much chatter.
best to you Bro...
Tom
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 08:13pm PT
|
"Preaching right, wrong and law and exhibiting full cowardice and anonymity will be your downfall in the future ....."
His downfall is what has lead to his behavior on this site. The only question left is to what level he will continue to sink.
|
|
BASE104
climber
An Oil Field
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 09:28pm PT
|
When I first posted on this thread I was utterly pissed off.
I thought about it quite a bit and realized that this is not a good feeling. There is some wisdom in the words of getting struck in the right cheek and then presenting your left.
The law loves a bad guy. They do not want a martyr.
El Cap is not the best jump in the world. No way. However, it may be the most beautiful. I dunno. There are so many now. So if you are a surfer, and the best wave on Earth is off limits, are you going to snap to and salute? Well, sure, if the reason makes any sense. If it is just a dumb law, then no way. You are gonna hit that wave and surf all night, coppers be damned.
That is kind of the way it is, I think. People were quitting their real jobs and becoming dirtbag jumpers 25 years ago. Now there is quite a crowd. They are much better schooled and have much better gear.
But that wave is still just sitting there. It is kind of like a tree falling in the forest for nobody to hear. Well, it gets done and nobody hears, unless there is a bust. Or you get woken up out of your sweet dreams in your ledge. I sure wish it was quieter. You don't really notice it when you are doing it.
But the epicenter is nowhere near Yosemite anymore.
And hey. I am going to try to stop getting pissed off so much in the future. No kidding.
I have so many amazing jumping stories. I just can't tell them. It is kind of a weird position to be in. You have all of the wild characters just like Camp 4 used to have.
|
|
Mr_T
Trad climber
Northern California
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 09:38pm PT
|
I just saw this, then the 1000 posts and had to laugh. He got popped fair and square. Yeah, sucks that jumping isn't legal, but that's pretty darn well established (since the 70's?).
Perhaps with all that adrenaline going after an el cap jump, someone might have been a little brusque with the po po and got to ride the lightning?
Tuan's page has a good article about why base jumping was outlawed. The hang gliding community ruined it for the rest of us long ago.
|
|
Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 09:48pm PT
|
eKat gets zapped.
YAY - WootWoot - YIKES! OoooooooooWEEEEEEEEEE!
XOXO
|
|
Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 09:53pm PT
|
for the Gipper or in the Gipper?
YEEEEEEOOWWWW!
OHHHHHHHHHH MYYYYYYYY!
|
|
BASE104
climber
An Oil Field
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 09:59pm PT
|
Aww. I am done.
Sitting in a freaking chair and typing away is kind of a weird way to spend your time.
I am going to sue CMac to make him pay for rehab.
|
|
Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 09:59pm PT
|
I think "take one for the Gipper" was in a prison film.
Either way, bundle up the Gipper, Old Man Winter is a comin'.
|
|
BASE104
climber
An Oil Field
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 10:11pm PT
|
Before I leave...hopefully for life...
Let me make a suggestion.
Go rent the movie "Gandhi." I hadn't seen it since I was a punk.
Then turn on the news and watch the channels for a few hours.
Then throw away your TV. The truth is almost impossible to find, other than through your own eyes.
I am splitting in a few days to go decompress from two years of non-stop geology work. Got a cabin to hang in with no water or anything for as long as I want. Up at 10,000 feet, so I should get some snow on my aging head.
The colors are turning. Hey. This thread really is a waste of time!! I think I am gonna read the Gita. Never read that one.
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 10:17pm PT
|
1015 posts? Geez, is this guy Eldridge Cleaver or something?
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 10:19pm PT
|
It's; "win one for the Gipper"
"take one for the team"
"get zapped in the neck for a jump-&-bolt"
A good time to rent Gandhi.
I hear the sequel is coming out over Xmas.
|
|
MisterE
Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2010 - 10:36pm PT
|
Well, enjoy your relaxing time, Base - and thanks again for being a well-grounded individual in a sea of reaction.
I, for one, appreciate it.
Wish I was somewhere the leaves are turning...
Erik
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2010 - 12:30am PT
|
As the "gipper" was played by Ronald Reagan, I'm all for tasering him. All conservatives, especially opportunistic ones like him, are smartened up by a tase of reality.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2010 - 12:33am PT
|
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2010 - 12:36am PT
|
Jody takes better pictures.
Plus he's having a torrid cyber romance with Lois on an as unnamed "other Site"
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2010 - 02:30am PT
|
MTucker
You never relieved your true identity. Just posted a picture of some dingy girl with a cell phone off the internet.
Thus you are no different then Ammon.
You ran!
You will suffer in your next life to become the dingy girl with the cell phone.
You have one more chance.
Or you will be sent to the court in dreams,
your sleep will become disturbed ........
|
|
ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
California
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2010 - 04:14am PT
|
Jody has WAY more charisma than this MTucker... didn't take long to find out who he is, what a laugh, haa haa
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2010 - 04:17am PT
|
Now I have to give the Double Eye Roll
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2010 - 04:22am PT
|
Now that you have the arrest and arraignment out of the way, only 10 or so more steps to go and 6 months till the season finale.
We shall see if my predictions come true. I already the "floated into the meadow when the fuzz was there" right. (Off duty does count cuz you got busted)
|
|
ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
California
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2010 - 04:28am PT
|
Nothing but positive energy to you mate... maybe you will recover from the flat spin and realize we are all human and here to learn from each other. All the best... see you soon.
|
|
Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2010 - 05:20am PT
|
I have several friends in law enforcement (past and present), but I have to say, MPhucker is the epitome of a TOOL.
|
|
Tarz
Mountain climber
Calli
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2010 - 08:32am PT
|
Mtucker, it's "season finale", not season finally...ya dweeb. Tighten up the wing nuts dude!
|
|
dustonian
climber
RRG
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2010 - 08:57am PT
|
Cheers to ya Ammon, hope everything turns out for the best. Not many folks are as positive as happy as you are, I'm sure you'll be good regardless of what happens.
Dustin
|
|
426
climber
Buzzard Point, TN
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2010 - 09:11am PT
|
I'll provide a classic example in my LEO career. ... I walk up to a Westy and inside is a guy firing up a sparky. He tell me he's a UCLA law student and shows me his books, so somehow a gust of wind comes and blows all of the leafy material away and a finger wagging issued. Two weeks later, I walk up to the same Westy in exactly the same spot, but this time he has lines of coke ready to go. Lessons unlearned resulted in him seeing how the legal system really works.
So you taught him things aren't black and white...until they are? You are a terrible LEO if this is a typical story. Think about it....you broke the law, also, if you had arrested him at first mebbe he wouldn't have strayed "so far"....
|
|
dougs510
Social climber
down south
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2010 - 10:30am PT
|
I certainly wish I could be in Yos.... Hell, I might even try jumping off the Cap and going to jail for it. That would beat sitting here in Condo Hell TN, waiting for them to cut off the electricity.
|
|
Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2010 - 12:40pm PT
|
You have one more chance.
Or you will be sent to the court in dreams,
your sleep will become disturbed ........
whoa! this one is worth remembering. Werner scores yet another timeless quote!
|
|
the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2010 - 04:55pm PT
|
you guys still talking about this? over 1000 posts?
time to move on and care about some issues other than same old Yosemite drama..
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2010 - 05:15pm PT
|
hey ammon-
glad to know this might have a clean soft landing after all, nice recovery!
cheers and let's all seek to fly under the radar!
-matt
|
|
dougs510
Social climber
down south
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2010 - 10:12pm PT
|
RokJox..... Great idea!
|
|
MisterE
Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2010 - 11:00pm PT
|
Stay Piratical, Ammon!
|
|
S.Leeper
Sport climber
Austin, Texas
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2010 - 11:12pm PT
|
aaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrghh, when is it national pirate's day anyway?
|
|
DJS
Trad climber
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2010 - 11:56pm PT
|
If I remember correctly the last El Cap protest jump ended in a fatality when a woman using a borrowed rig didn't deploy her chute because she was used to a different setup. I don't think it sent the right message.
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2010 - 11:59pm PT
|
Ok, how about this excuse . . .
Tell them BASE jumping is an act of faith in your Religion. Start "The First BASE Jump Church of GOD," and that you have to jump because it is a requirement and the most sacred act of your faith according to your religious beliefs.
Claim your 1st Amendment Rights. The most sacred act of Faith, and a rite of passage according to your religion and according to your beliefs is to jump from El Cap and land in El Cap Meadow wearing a wingsuit. You are practicing for when you become Angels by flying your wingsuits.
You could even bring a lawsuit against the NPS when they try to deny you your religious rights.
Hey, it could work.
Ok, ok, how about this one . . .
"Yes sir officer. That's right. I had to jump and quickly fly down wearing a wingsuit to my parked vehicle because I realized I left unsecured food in my car. My bad? I accidentally forgot about safely storing and putting the food in a bear-box. Oops. I didn't want to break the law and I knew I better get down there as fast as possible, and make things right. I wanted to avoid any damage, and I certainly didn't want to cause any problems or harm for the ancestors or buddies of bear #46. I care about doing the right thing. I care about the bears. You have to admit it was the fastest way down. In an emergency and to save lives, you got to do what you got to do. I did it for the bears."
|
|
bmacd
climber
Beautiful British Columbia
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2010 - 01:52am PT
|
Church of 1st BASE - yes brilliant .... I must jump off of El Cap now ...
My Father who Art on Mescalito
SEA us these DREams
Forever be thy Zodiac
Give us this day, our daily Magic Mushroom
Ahmmon
Bless you everyone
peace, love and adrenaline
|
|
Mason
Trad climber
Yay Area
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2010 - 10:33am PT
|
ElCapPirate said:
Oh, and my attorney said it was ok to post here because it’s only the internet and it doesn’t count, haa haa
Yes! This is what they taught us in Business Law.
There is no such thing as slander and libel on the internet, because anyone can post on the internet.
Slanderers and libelers take note. Those that post bad reviews about businesses on Yelp, your reviews are legit and you can't be sued for it.
Thanks Elcap man.
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
Hey y'all,
Just down after two weeks of big wall camping on the wall. What's the latest? Any new news?
Cheers,
Pete
Edit: Several beers on the bridge, and a really good $3 bottle of chard later, precludes me from reading the previous two or three hundred posts....
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
"Hey y'all,
Just down after two weeks of big wall camping on the wall. What's the latest? Any new news?"
Is it possible for you to just ask a simple question without informing everybody of your "accomplishments"?
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
Well, you may be right.
But I've been listening to this guy for 10 years. Trust me, his only interest is in his own self promotion.
I don't like people who spray. Especially when they stand in the shadows of giants.
Watching him "work the floor" at the Jose Pereyra memorial was nothing short of sickening.
"Hi, I'm pass the pitons pete...." With just about any well known respected wall climber there. Believe me, there were a ton.
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
"He's just passin'' the penis...."
Snicker....
Not disagreeing with that Alister, just don't like spraying. That's where he is the true master.
Pete, you should be a spokes person for an irrigation or deep well pump company.
Hey Pete, how about in the future you just say, "Hi, been a way a while. How's Ammon doing?"
Since you have been in the Valley, I would imagine you could get all the news that's fit to print.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
Pete: RTFM.
ps Please post a TR regarding the Albatross. (Presumably not the Flight of the Albatross, at least not for you personally.)
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
I love that picture...
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
Oh, and my attorney said it was ok to post here because it’s only the internet and it doesn’t count, haa haa
haa haa! You're joking, but if you aren't and he really told you that, it's time to hire a real lawyer.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
Rokjox-
I love your idea about massive civil disobedience! Here's the embellishment to drive the LEOs crazy: everyone shows up on the ground wearing a wingsuit and parachute. There would be too many look-alike wannabe jumpers to determine who the jumpers were. Say 10 jumpers, and a hundred wearing what appears to be wingsuits.... Just an evil thought from my fevered brain!
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
Ammon is using the public defender again.
Rachel Hill
Assistant Federal Defender
2300 Tulare Street, Suite 330
Fresno, CA 93721-2226
Telephone: 559-487-5561
Sure does talk a lot of smack though.
Oh, and my attorney said it was ok to post here because it’s only the internet and it doesn’t count, haa haa
I already know the rangers are planning on lying about what happened, I have nothing to hide (unlike them), so I feel like I can talk as much as I want. Their edited version of video isn't the only video out there.
It will all be hashed out in the civil case... life is grand!
Money to hire that civil lawyer?? ACLU won't take your case.
I still foresee that Ammon will sign the plea and this will be over.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
Whoever he is he makes a cogent point. If Ammon can't afford a defense attorney how is he going to retain a civil rights attorney to go after the NPS?
I know something about what an uphill battle that is.
It is not that I am against it; quite the contrary. It is good to hold their feet to the fire when accountability is called for.
Perhaps when the criminal case is concluded we will better be able to understand this debacle.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
Previous research and a few meetings have confirmed that the federal public defenders are well vetted and a cut above ordinary PDs. They are probably better than many of the private attorneys within reach of Yosemite and more familiar with the federal stuff anyway.
Wishing a graceful navigation of the system for the monkey
Peace
Karl
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
Oh,... well,.... no worries then Karl.
A big fat uncontested judgement along with apology and check are as good as in Ammon's pocket already.
|
|
Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
|
|
Hey, I haven't the time to read the whole thread, but remember the gambler? Frank Gambalie was murdered by the system.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
12/8/2010
Ammon McNeely pleaded Guilty.
$4000 Fine
24 Months Probation
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
Wow!
Worst fine I ever got from the NPS was $200.
I can't tell which is more shocking, I dare say.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
I can't tell which is more shocking, I dare say
Between Rok's posts or $4000???
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
Judge ordered return of equipment taken during the arrest.
|
|
martygarrison
Trad climber
Washington DC
|
|
For many of us this is a very light judgement. For a professional climber etc this could equal a couple of lean years. I am curious if this ended up a felony? If so, not good. I know I am opening myself up to tirades on st but frankly in my view the young man just needs to grow up. Maybe this episode will help the process.
|
|
BASE1361
climber
Yosemite Valley National Park
|
|
MT-F*#khole AKA Fletcher Ogg.
The LEO who tasered Ammon knows so much about this case.
You are a piece of work. Or should I say SH#T.
But it's all good dude, you sleep in a pile of sh#t you call your life every night. What happened Fletcher.... mommy not love you enough growing up? OR did daddy love you TOO much when she wasn't look'n :)
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
I report the facts.
The PACER site has just a little info.
Felony? Not sure.
Plead to what crimes? Unknown
Payment of $175 a month till $4000 is paid off.
Got his gear back. Could have been forfeited because the equipment was used in the commitment of the crime. Like a gun, burglary tools, or drugs, or getaway car.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
The BIG thing is that Ammon LIED to all of us.
Sure took a plea real quick in legal time.
Didn't even fight it like he fought his DUI.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
Lets here the whole story without any lies, Ammon.
Court went well, they offered me a reasonable deal, dropping most of the charges, (of course) but had to hold out on one issue, so I obviously plead not guilty. The new magistrate seems like a fair judge and good character.
|
|
Captain...or Skully
climber
leading the away team, but not in a red shirt!
|
|
Pirates be about, in these parts, it seems.
Yarrrr.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
I'll be blunt. WTF is a "hooch"?
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
You are the same kind of criminal, Coz. Disregard for NPS laws for your own gain. Projects on all recreationalists.
|
|
Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
|
|
Lots of panties in a twist over nothing here. I'm glad Ammon got through this. Go climbing you bitches.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
From what I have read, you don't believe you did anything wrong.
After 15 years it might be a healthy thing to come to terms with those issues, Coz.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
|
|
Crazy!
Got it!
1096 joke, "Crazy person in custody" or similar Obscure 10-code humor
|
|
BASE1361
climber
Yosemite Valley National Park
|
|
Coz, your right.
He's a pathetic little man who never could make it as a true police officer. Daddy probably did love him wwaaayyy too much growing up.
It's little men like him who serve as an example of the kind of human being NEVER to become. Other than that he takes precious air from the rest of the well deserving population.
He's the self righteous LEO who preaches but never practices what he preaches.
I bet Fletcher Ogg is a drunk, drug addict and beats his ugly wife and molests his kids. But he comes here and try's to pound his chest and puff it to look bigger than his little penis really is.
Sad little man.
|
|
Papillon Rendre
climber
|
|
BFD
Base jumping, smoking pot and some beers makes a criminal?
Mtucker, you're too harsh.
When I think of criminal activities; base jumping, pot smoking and beer drinking (as long as you're not driving) do not come to mind.
Go after the really bad guys; rapists, murderers and robbers.
Most of us who lived in the park broke at least two of these three offenses. Give it a rest already.
-PR
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
We were given a ticket, not charged with a crime, so for your information, I'm not a criminal.
They why did you need a lawyer???
36 CFR is a law and you broke it.
You violated the Wilderness act as well. It is a law too.
Point proven. You are a criminal.
You got busted, charged, convicted (plead), and fined.
Criminal = a person charged with and convicted of crime
Crime = Crime is the breach of rules or laws
Misdemeanor = is a "lesser" criminal act.(Many misdemeanors are punished with monetary fines.)
TITLE 36 - PARKS, FORESTS, AND PUBLIC PROPERTY
CHAPTER I - NATIONAL PARK SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
PART 1 - GENERAL PROVISIONS
1.3 - Penalties.
(a) A person convicted of violating a provision of the regulations contained in parts 1 through 7, 12 and 13 of this chapter, within a park area not covered in paragraphs (b) or (c) of this section, shall be punished by a fine as provided by law, or by imprisonment not exceeding 6 months, or both, and shall be adjudged to pay all costs of the proceedings.
(b) A person who knowingly and will- fully violates any provision of the regulations contained in parts 1 through 5, 7 and 12 of this chapter, within any national military park, battlefield site, national monument, or miscellaneous memorial transferred to the jurisdiction of the Secretary of the Interior from that of the Secretary of War by Executive Order No. 6166, June 10, 1933, and enumerated in Executive Order No.
6228, July 28, 1933, shall be punished by a fine as provided by law, or by imprisonment for not more than 3 months, or by both.
Note: These park areas are enumerated in a note under 5 U.S.C. 901.
(c) A person convicted of violating any provision of the regulations contained in parts 1 through 7 of this chapter, within a park area established pursuant to the Act of August 21, 1935, 49 Stat. 666, shall be punished by a fine as provided by law and shall be adjudged to pay all costs of the proceedings. 16 U.S.C. 462.
(d) Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) of this section, a person convicted of violating 2.23 of this chapter shall be punished by a fine as provided by law. 16 U.S.C. 460.
Read more: http://cfr.vlex.com/vid/1-3-penalties-19768132#ixzz1AVPgRk5o
|
|
BASE1361
climber
Yosemite Valley National Park
|
|
MTucker is Fletcher OGG
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
BASE1361 is off base. HAHAHAHA
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
PR, send your advice to Coz. He is the one that needs your help. Living in denial.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
Here is the Criminal Summary from the Federal Criminal Data Base (PACER).
Case Summary
1:94-cr-05209-HGB USA v. Epperson, et al
Date filed: 08/30/1994
Date terminated: 10/28/1994
Date of last filing: 11/21/1994
Scott Edward Cosgrove (2)
Office: Fresno Filed: 08/30/1994
County: Merced Terminated: 10/28/1994 Reopened:
Other Court Case: None
Count: 1 Citation: 16:3372.M Offense Level: 3
16:3372 WILLFULLY, UNLAWFULLY AND KNOWINGLY AID, ABET AND VIOLATE A USE, ACTIVITY RESTRICTION OR CONDITION BY USING A MOTORIZED DRILLING DEVICE FOR THE PURPOSE OF PLACING BOLTS OR CLIMBING EQUIPMENT; AND POSSESS A MOTORIZED DRILL IN AN UNDEVELOPED AREA, TO WIT: MUIR WALL AND SHIELD ROUTES ON EL CAPITAN MOUNTAIN
Def Custody Status:
Flag: CLOSED
|
|
Captain...or Skully
climber
leading the away team, but not in a red shirt!
|
|
How does he breathe?
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
There is a higher law, and in The Good Book, BASE jumping is not a crime.
Neither is skateboarding, climbing, or any other adventure sport a crime.
Marijuana or the subspecies of the marijuana plant, Cannabis Sativa Sativa and Cannabis Sativa Indica, are obviously made by The Creator. It has a purpose.
Using it to smoke isn't such a good idea, however, it does have good medicinal purposes and should be used as such. Also makes good hemp rope, and very good clothing. Apparently it can make great paper products also.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemp
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andrew-weil-md/can-cannabis-treat-cancer_b_701005.html
http://store.hempest.com/catalog/
You have man's laws, and then you have GOD's laws. Man's laws shouldn't reach beyond GOD's laws.
Mankind is very much an evil and power hungry species.
Not good.
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
Klimmer is right,.
The bible does not say that base jumping is against gods law.
Therefore, it is ok to do it.
And who cares about man's law anyhow, just a bunch of wankers.
|
|
Sir loin of leisure...
Trad climber
I'm from Idaho..bitch
|
|
you got caught...you knew the rules...wrong or right ...you knew the game...suck it...
|
|
Papillon Rendre
climber
|
|
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sh0luSsP91I
Mtucker:
Now those two were criminals; robbers and murderers.
"WILLFULLY, UNLAWFULLY AND KNOWINGLY AID, ABET AND VIOLATE A USE, ACTIVITY RESTRICTION OR CONDITION BY USING A MOTORIZED DRILLING DEVICE FOR THE PURPOSE OF PLACING BOLTS OR CLIMBING EQUIPMENT; AND POSSESS A MOTORIZED DRILL IN AN UNDEVELOPED AREA, TO WIT: MUIR WALL AND SHIELD ROUTES ON EL CAPITAN MOUNTAIN"
Hmmm- BFD
My mother is more criminal than Coz. She smuggles foie gras in from France. Yes, my mother is a criminal besides I think the whole process with foie gras, disgusting.
-PR
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
|
|
Coz and the Kid did a good thing, and I thank them.
|
|
Sir loin of leisure...
Trad climber
I'm from Idaho..bitch
|
|
coz, is a stud and ambassador of the sport..and you will NEVER achieve the status of the coz...
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
MT,
UR a dumb ass, we were not convicted of a crime, idiot.
Anyway, I am breaking my code of not too responding to you.
I think you need to be voted off the island.
It might not be the best thing about you but it is true. Sorry that you are having such a hard time with these terms and labels.
No matter how you try to SPIN your case, you have admitted to wrong doing.
Yes, you were found guilty of an offense (breaking a law).
I have a legal dictionary you can have. I will send it Priority mail.
Conviction = a person proved or declared guilty of an offense.
The opposite of a conviction is an acquittal.
In the eye of the law, you are a criminal by all basic definitions. You should have your lawyer explain things to you.
Doesn't mean that you were a defendant and went to trial in front of a jury of your peers. That is one way to be convicted. That might be a common misbelieve as well.
But by your plea of guilty, bench trial, or jury trial you have been found guilty of a crime.
|
|
Sir loin of leisure...
Trad climber
I'm from Idaho..bitch
|
|
If your going to set out to knowingly break the law...don't get caught..dumbass...
|
|
cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
|
|
"The law is an ass."
-Charles Dickens
-Ralph Steadman
|
|
Sir loin of leisure...
Trad climber
I'm from Idaho..bitch
|
|
skipt is a cut and paste polititard that crossed over to a climbing thread...
|
|
Sir loin of leisure...
Trad climber
I'm from Idaho..bitch
|
|
bump for skipt to get his reply...cause I want to know...
|
|
Sir loin of leisure...
Trad climber
I'm from Idaho..bitch
|
|
what has skipt ever done to advance the sport of climbing...come on skipt..cut and paste your list of climbing related achievements...thought so...
|
|
Sir loin of leisure...
Trad climber
I'm from Idaho..bitch
|
|
list your achievements skipt...cause I know you have none...come on tosser who are you and what makes you an authority on such matters...I'll bet you dodge the question...
|
|
Sir loin of leisure...
Trad climber
I'm from Idaho..bitch
|
|
let's not talk about coz,who are you and what have you done ?you will never ever be able to answer that question...cause you are a wanna be...
|
|
Sir loin of leisure...
Trad climber
I'm from Idaho..bitch
|
|
get your ass back to the polititard thread skipt...cut and paste some crap loser..
|
|
Sir loin of leisure...
Trad climber
I'm from Idaho..bitch
|
|
come on skipt...what have you done?/...nothing...I made it to the base of rainer..ewwww
|
|
Sir loin of leisure...
Trad climber
I'm from Idaho..bitch
|
|
anything skipt?..besides cut and paste champ who is skipt?I made it to the base of rainer ewwwww
|
|
Sir loin of leisure...
Trad climber
I'm from Idaho..bitch
|
|
your silence speaks volumes...OH but coz is a prima donna...your not worthy to hold his dick while he takes a leak...sorry coz. I'm nearly done...
|
|
Sir loin of leisure...
Trad climber
I'm from Idaho..bitch
|
|
skipt surely you have some rock climbing achievements to share...let's all hear what skipt has accomplished in the rock climbing world...this is a rock climbing site...not a cut and paste polititard site...do tell ..
|
|
Sir loin of leisure...
Trad climber
I'm from Idaho..bitch
|
|
the whole world of the internet is waiting skipt....
|
|
Sir loin of leisure...
Trad climber
I'm from Idaho..bitch
|
|
see there skipt..you can cut and paste on the polititard thread like all the other idiots,,,but when it comes the substance you have none....
|
|
Sir loin of leisure...
Trad climber
I'm from Idaho..bitch
|
|
is there anyone out there that can tell me anything that skipt has accomplished in the climbing world ?anyone?skipt ain't sayin...anyone?
|
|
Sir loin of leisure...
Trad climber
I'm from Idaho..bitch
|
|
I guess he did make it to the base of rainer...sorry skipt....
|
|
BASE1361
climber
Yosemite Valley National Park
|
|
Fletcher Ogg = MTucker.
you are a perfect example again of the kind of species NEVER to become.
You preach what you do NOT practice.
Do you Fletcher Ogg NEVER break the law..... EVER??
Just answer that question? Every day which you rob every good human being air do you not break the law in some way, shape or form??????
Yes or NO?
Simple reply will suffice for such a simple person.
|
|
squishy
Mountain climber
sacramento
|
|
I wonder if jester is totally getting laid after that went all viral and sh#t...ugly bastard...
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
BASE1361
You better cease calling Fletcher MTucker.
It's not him, and that's outright slander.
|
|
Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
|
|
"The conversation is larger than the point you're trying to make, brother, try to think outside the box Fatty for once. You're like a broken black and white record player that just keeps skipping on logic."...
Except the law works inside the box and willingly choosing to act, not think, outside that box is the issue...
Grow up.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
I only replaced bad bolts, I am proud of what I did, probably saved lives.
"Only"!!! I don't think so.
You should read you own story in Climbing Mag #176, 5/1998. You added a bolt to the original line. What about the preplaced gear in every picture. Were you going for the "pink-point"? Hardly the "ground up", "old-school", "no added bolts", "no pre-inspection" that you printed.
Yes, we knowingly broke the law. We felt it had to be done. We added one bolt to the original Muir Wall....
The rest of the article you try to blame rangers for entrapping you and YOSAR ratting you out.
Hardly manning up and taking your punishment for knowingly breaking the law.
We broke the law took are punishment and moved on.
The law you broke is a bit more than a traffic ticket, Bro. The effects are greater than a simple fine.
I don't believe that you are sincere.
Till you realize that when you break the law you create more problems for climbers and climbing issues you have a negative influence on the sport.
You didn’t “only” replace old bolts. You damaged the climbing community.
|
|
BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
|
|
He knows what illegal means, right? Should we send him a dictionary?
|
|
BASE1361
climber
Yosemite Valley National Park
|
|
Funny how MTucker aka Fletcher Ogg keeps avoiding the question.
Since MTucker ordered a D5 hammer will IHP tell us who he really is?? They would for sure know since they are sending this ass clown a hammer.
BASE104.... he's angry probably for a number of reasons. It's a matter of time before karma catches up to him. I feel sorry for anyone who knows Fletcher. If he's as miserable here as in person he's a real piece of work... or did I say sh#t earlier??
Yes... I said sh#t.
|
|
ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
California
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2011 - 12:22am PT
|
A buddy at the DZ informed me that this thread has been "RESURRECTED", too funny. He just shook his head back and forth and said, “those guys posting on the taco would be blown away at how much fun you are having while they are bitching on the internet”, haa haa. I’ve been hucking, climbing, running, flying… hey, it’s not for everyone…
Yes, it’s obvious that I know/knew that BASE jumping in National Parks is illegal in this country. I’m also man enough to stand up and take what is coming to me, although I’m flabbergasted by the 50,000 volts. I strongly disagree that the BASE jumping law is fair and that certain federal employees get so worked up about such an innocent activity that they use a potential lethal weapon on a human that has committed a victimless crime.
The whole taser ordeal is what I’m completely miffed about, Ogg didn’t have to do it. I was on my knees complying when he hand-tased me. It was scary as hell to hear him laughing like some evil monster.
After his fellow colleague had only found one barb in me, one in the neck and one hit my rig (It takes two barbs to get the volts) he questioned Ogg about it and he flat out lied and said, “it must have fallen out… or maybe it just takes one to get the juice.” Why did he feel like he had to lie? Answer: because I was on my knees with my hands on my head, in submission. Being tased is no laughing matter, not the way I got it, people die from it and it’s not just the old or weak.
Yes, I drank two beers while walking up to the exit, I was taking my time, it took 2 hours. I’m guessing I was at .02 at the exit.. not even slightly buzzed. I drank a half of a congrats beer (Sierra Nevada, Torpedo, yum) after I landed. So, it takes at least 30 minutes before a correct BAC level could be determined, and why didn’t they take the formal test once we got back to the John Muir?
So, all in all everyone was doing their job really well, I must say.
Except for Ogg, he got WAY too much pleasure out of tasing me. I guess that’s why he’s a taser instructor. Go figure.
The DA, who did her job really well, wanted an extra 2.5k in fines to get my gear back. Hhmm, Wingsuit, 1,100 and BASE rig 1,800 = 2,900… barely worth it. But, I love my gear so I go for their “bargain”. Well, the Judge, who I can’t help to respect, and I’m being genuine, seems like what a Judge should be. I also had a vibe that he didn’t exactly agree with what happened, he was going by what the laws says. I regret that he didn’t get a chance to hear what happened in court.
The Magistrate actually said, “I think we might be setting him up for failure” and reduced the fine to 1,500 extra to get my gear back, 4k total. Now, I take THAT as a challenge… bigwall style.
I don’t have the time to read everything up-thread, but that’s my account. I’m going to continue my pursuit of happiness and keep raising awareness of the assault on BASE jumpers in NP's.
Continue on and have fun with it boy’s and girl’s… ladies and gents.
YUP, it’s worth every penny… I’m OUT!!!
|
|
d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2011 - 12:39am PT
|
ARGHHHH!!!!!
|
|
GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2011 - 12:51am PT
|
Ammon you hater. Don't deny Ogg his God given right to tase submissive males while sporty a stiffy.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2011 - 01:28am PT
|
The Magistrate actually said, “I think we might be setting him up for failure” and reduced the fine to 1,500 extra to get my gear back, 4k total. Now, I take THAT as a challenge… bigwall style.
Already proving the Judge right. Won't take long to lose that challenge.... jail bird style.
|
|
Rodion
climber
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2011 - 03:15am PT
|
Yarrrrr, matey!
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2011 - 03:21am PT
|
damn, missed the Arizona post.
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2011 - 11:22am PT
|
He's a Taser instructor, and he MISSED you from point-blank range?!
Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!!!!!!
Hey mate, glad it worked out well for you all considering. See you on the bridge this spring, eh?
Cheers,
Pete
P.S. Next time, try "sneaking" away .....
|
|
Scott Thelen
Trad climber
Truckee, Ca
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2011 - 07:17pm PT
|
I just can't forget getting done with the shield and within two hours Ammon taking the tool on a nice two and a half hour run for a bowl of pasta.
|
|
couchmaster
climber
pdx
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 9, 2011 - 06:48pm PT
|
*shakes head* Jessusssss.
Someone cut, paste and mail this off to the lad.
There is a great post in the comments section underneath that article by a guy calling himself Randy English. Right on the money.
"NPS ban on BASE jumping is arbitrary and without merit. Higher risk activities such as free soloing are allowed. More environmentally destructive activities such as horseback riding are allowed. I would wager more people die annually going over Vernal or Nevada Falls than BASE jumping. Granted more people walk to the falls than BASE jump, but if safety is the reason for the ban on BASE jumping, the trail to Vernal/Nevada falls should be closed for safety as well.
In my discussion with NPS staff two reasons for the ban are cited. The first is safety. When I have countered with the above arguments about free soloing/tourists going over falls, they have stated their real concern is not the jumper, but motorists crashing because they are watching the jumper not the road. Then the real concern is cited, the fear of subsequent lawsuits from said motorists. The solution for their first concern is simple, scheduled road closures, perhaps for one hour every Wednesday afternoon (arbitrary time/day just for example). No traffic, no distracted motorists. Road would be open for emergency vehicles and since they are driven by professionals there should be no concern about the driver not watching the road. (Some may argue about closing the valley floor to automobile traffic altogether due to environmental degradation but that is another issue altogether)
Their second argument is BASE jumping is a nontraditional activity outside the scope of recreation in a national park. This argument is so spurious that it noes not merit a rebuttal. It makes as much sense as banning digital photography in the park because it was not in use during Ansel Adams lifetime.
NPS land is owned by the people not the agency that oversees the land. The NPS should not have the authority to ban any nondestructive use of the peoples land (Cue Woody Guthrie...)
I am not a BASE jumper. I am a climber/skier/backpacker. I am concerned that if the NPS can place an outright ban on an activity like BASE jumping, the activities I enjoy can be banned as well. Remember for a time in the 50's the NPS banned Warren Harding from his first ascent attempts on the Nose of El Cap due to traffic concerns.
As for BASE jumping off private property, well that is private property and the property owners have rights. Proceed at your own peril. "
This: NPS land is owned by the people not the agency that oversees the land.
|
|
couchmaster
climber
pdx
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 9, 2011 - 07:06pm PT
|
You nailed it with that cool hand luke pic.
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
|
|
He is serene; this was exactly how he'd planned it. He arches up toward the sky, lets out a deep "Huh," and pushes off.
Of all the reasons Ammon McNeely shouldn't have just done that, the gravity now pulling him to earth is just the first. If he's caught doing this he could face significant earthly consequences. He is on federal probation for jumping off the side of El Capitan in Yosemite National Park in August. Having pleaded guilty in federal court in December to illegal air delivery of a person by parachute, he's supposed to be following the law to the letter
How would get caught doing this? It's not like a description of you commiting the crime, with pictures, isn't on the front cover of the SF WEEKLY!
Oops, I was wrong. http://www.sfweekly.com/
Ammon, do you think you're probation officer can't read? For a smart guy, you sure can be one dumb motherf*#ker!
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
Nonsense!
Go ahead and scoff them. What more can they do to you?
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Feb 10, 2011 - 12:17am PT
|
Ammon must enjoy his time behind bars.
Claims love of freedom but on the way to have it taken from him.
Sad story really.
Lindsay Lohan and Ammon are traveling the same path.
Next time he goes to court this article and all prior criminal acts will follow him.
The time of unsupervised probation is over.
|
|
The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
|
|
|
Feb 10, 2011 - 12:31am PT
|
MTucker, you are a pathetic creature.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Feb 10, 2011 - 01:02am PT
|
Awwww Larry.
Do you remember that last time we shared a rope. Good times.
I call it like I see it. Lawyer Style.
|
|
The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
|
|
|
Feb 10, 2011 - 01:11am PT
|
Shared a rope with you? Do tell.
I don't even know who you are.
Your obsession with Ammon is quite pathetic though.
|
|
MisterE
Social climber
MEEP MEEP
|
|
|
Feb 10, 2011 - 01:45am PT
|
I hear it actually helped the blood circulation!
Win?
|
|
tooth
Trad climber
The Best Place On Earth
|
|
|
Feb 26, 2011 - 12:11am PT
|
MTucker,
I can tell you aren't a climber. You can't experience the freedom and simplicity of climbing or flying and be able to, in any way, relate it to the stuff Lohan does.
You are relating endangering others in society to something free and personal that harms nobody and has no reason to be illegal in the US still other than the ignorance of people like you.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Feb 26, 2011 - 03:31am PT
|
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Feb 26, 2011 - 07:56am PT
|
That SF article was a very good read.
Yea, someone who loves freedom and just wants to jump and be left alone, not really hurting anyone. Tasered, arrested and then goes to jail, and is fined, and put on probation. What are you in for? "I love the freedom of jumping off cliffs."
Then we have a cabal who wages illegal war, under false pretenses, and tortures, and runs our country morally and economically into the ground, and helped eradicate our Constitutional Freedoms and our Bill of Rights to a large degree, and then they all walk scott-free. And to some sick Americans they are esteemed as heroes, and they even publish books bragging about their crimes against humanity, and then turn around and are paid enormous sums of money to talk about their crimes in public. (Thank GOD some honest nations in the rest of World see their crimes and their travel plans, as a result are seriously curtailed.)
There are good rangers and there are bad rangers. The bad rangers are just tools of their dark overlords.
Yea, this world makes perfect sense.
|
|
MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Feb 26, 2011 - 08:10pm PT
|
Susan St Vincent
LEGAL INSTRUMENTS EXAMINER 209 372-0228 / Susan_St_Vincent@nps.gov YOSEMITE NP
|
|
donald perry
Trad climber
kearny, NJ
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2012 - 10:02am PT
|
Ammon McNeely Tasered
The risk of taser death is between 1 in 50,500. [1.] The risk of death by basejumping is between 1 in 2,317.[2]. But what is the point in enforcing this law by tasers if you are going to kill people? And if not by taser there are drownings and you are still at a loss if you are trying to save people. But inadvertently it is a great way for the park to make money.
Although it is not the most healthiest thing to do, the police and taser engineers tase themselves from time to time to test tasers or prove something. So tasing yourself and base jumping may have something in common. And I suppose to some degree some ranger with a taser is thinking something along the lines of sharing his own ideas of adventure when he tasers people. Ammon is tough enough, real tough, and as far as getting tazzered goes the people who are complaining about it the most may be the most frightened by the idea of getting tased. I don’t think a taser is something that frightens Ammon in the least. If it meant he could get a free pass to base jump I would not doupt that he might take a tase for every jump. I can’t say the same for myself and all of you who keep posting ad-nauseum about tasers, who must fear cardiac arrhythmia.
But I think what we should to be concerned with is where we spend our time. The park is only about following rules. Instead of complaining and running from tasers we should be doing something to take control. In this system we call America we are in control, we are the bosses. If there is tasers it is because we allow them. What do we do?, we make our voices heard and bring about change by majority vote. And we need to change things and stop being so lazy. What should we be changing?
Changing laws about base jumping.
Changing laws about water fluoridation in our towns, which gets into everything we eat and contains lead and many other harmful chemicals to make you a regular customer of the pharmaceutical and cancer industry. Fluoride is a poison, and if you endorse brushing your teeth with it and putting it in the water you are either profiting from it or you are severely uneducated. Or perhaps you are just unteachable. It should be easy enough to stop it in your city when it contains more than just fluoride.
Laws about dumping aluminum and barum and other toxic substances into the air for GMO’s and Monsanto. Stop voting for GMO's, stop buying their food.
Stopping Nukes and namely Fukushima internationally from becoming nuclear catastrophe 83 times worse than Chernobyl, right now it is at 30 according to some statistics.[3] Change your power company if it is a nuke! [4.]
Notes:
[1]http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2865/how-dangerous-are-tasers
[2]http://www.medicine.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/booth/risk/sports.html
[3]http://www.naturalnews.com
[4]http://www.ehow.com/how_7462397_change-power-companies.html
|
|
| Messages 1 - 850 of total 850 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!