Ammon McNeely Tasered and arrested in Yos

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couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 27, 2010 - 12:48am PT
I just saw this. I've already ranted extensively about how we need to defund and de-militarize these "public servants" who all too frequently end up thinking they are our overlords. Take our damn money back and keep it away from them. Bastards. It's starting to become US against THEM. Which is unfortunate for our country.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=151917391502041&v=info

Ammon McNeeley or anyone being tazered for this is total bullshit and so wrong. To start with, jumping off cliffs shouldn't be illegal, and it's so f*#ked up and opposed to what at the very core of what our country stands for that the police can steal your stuff (the new forfeiture laws) if they do catch you. For an average dirtbag, to steal 80 percent of their net worth for something which is a personal choice and not illegal anywhere else in the world, even in dictatorships, is way over the top punishment.

Of course, rich dudes can jump on a plane and fly over to Europe anywhere and legally jump off the Eiger or whatever they wish, so it's the true dirtbags and the fiscally challenged who get stuck in the eye by this law. I suppose it would be similar to the police stealing a drivers car for not using their turn signal. For a person who is deeply invested in their auto, like a warehouseman who had purchased a Mercedes or a Lexus, it is crazy restrictive and regressive. For a rich dude, he'd shrug if off and go buy another Lexus, but for a poor person fully leveraged it would be painfully regressive. I'm all for making people obey officers, I do and think we all should: but if the authorities are going to steal your stuff over any minor thing, plan on most Lexus's driving off when it gets pulled over for simply not using a turn signal.

One of the things wrong with this country is that we pass sh#t loads of stupid bullshit laws and then make criminals of good people over little things, and the jails are stuffed full. The taxpayers get the shaft and we all lose bits of freedom. Who wins here? We do this more than any other country in the world and it's so damn costly and counterproductive.

In addition to his climbing skill, Ammon is widely known for his honesty, kindness, helpfulness and generosity. Good people like Ammon shouldn't be sh#t on by the system like this. For myself, I wish him well. What we as citizens need to do is stop funding these paramilitary wantabe police as#@&%es who are driving a wedge between good people and these who would be our overlords. Enough is enough and we all had enough of this bullshit a long time ago.
MeatBomb

Gym climber
Boise, I dee Hoe
Aug 27, 2010 - 12:50am PT
Well, it is ILLEGAL after all. Did he yell "don't TAZE me Bro"?
EP

Trad climber
Way Out There
Aug 27, 2010 - 12:53am PT
A tasing for an illegal base jump is totally out of line.


MeatBomb

Gym climber
Boise, I dee Hoe
Aug 27, 2010 - 12:54am PT
The cops there have killed people for less. He got lucky.
Cpt0bvi0u5

Trad climber
Merced CA
Aug 27, 2010 - 12:58am PT
And the park service does it again...
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Aug 27, 2010 - 01:13am PT
I would like to hear why Ammon was tazed.

Sad day for the monkeys.
jstan

climber
Aug 27, 2010 - 01:15am PT
I pulled up the facebook. Not much information there. Is this all you have?
MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Aug 27, 2010 - 01:20am PT
Committing a crime DOES NOT = Taser

Resisting arrest and belligerent behavior = NON LETHAL force = Taser

Taser is in the MIDDLE

Use of Force Paradigm

* Officer presence
* Verbal commands
* Soft hands (control tactics/wrist locks/OC spray)
* Hard hands (strike points/impact weapons)
* Lethal force (firearm/strike points to vital areas)


Who got to Taser him?

Lober, Gabriel, Hofflach, Bellino
MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Aug 27, 2010 - 01:27am PT
Chris Mac got busted in Grand Canyon and Ammon is busted in Yosemite.

The sentence and the fine are going to hurt.

Expect maximum sentencing for this. It is a misdemeanor but you still can get $5000 fine and a year in jail.

How long will he be banded from National Parks? YEARS

What kind of record does Ammon have?

Resisting arrest or violent behavior toward cops in called aggravating circumstances.

Ups the price to get out of jail.
Argon

climber
North Bay, CA
Aug 27, 2010 - 01:35am PT
At least these Yosemite LEO's knew which holster had the taser - he's lucky it wasn't the BART police. Or maybe the chickenshtt LEO meant to shoot him and pulled the taser by mistake.
MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Aug 27, 2010 - 01:50am PT
36 CFR 2.17 (a)(3)

The following are prohibited:

Delivering or retrieving a person or object by parachute,
helicopter, or other airborne means, except in emergencies involving
public safety or serious property loss, or pursuant to the terms and
conditions of a permit.
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Aug 27, 2010 - 01:52am PT
"Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time..."
I'm sure Ammon is aware.
The fine/time could hurt, though.

On the facebook discussion page, Kait said he was released the next day.
But I imagine he wants to "lay low" on this one and hope for a lenient sentence.
yosguns

climber
Durham, NC
Aug 27, 2010 - 02:28am PT
Sort of reminds me of a much more serious version of a story from Grateful Dead lore I heard that was inspiration for a song with the lyric "smilin' on a cloudy day." There's a suggestion at the end of the interview below (I edited a bit for readability) that it takes more these days than disrespecting an officer to merit getting roughed up. For what it's worth, some of you may appreciate:

Lesh: Water balloon episode?
MM: Uh-oh!
DG: Oh, I wanna hear this!
Weir: I got him good. . . . I was on the third floor of . . . our place in the Haight-Ashbury. . . . [T]here was this cop who was illegally searching a car belonging to a friend of ours . . . down on the street - the cops used to harass us . . . every chance they got. They didn't care for the hippies back then. . . . [S]o I had a water balloon, and what was I gonna do with this water balloon, come on. And, uh...
Lesh: Just happened to have a water balloon, in his hand...
MM: See, I wasn't gonna bring that up...
Lesh: ...ladies and gentlemen.
Weir: And so I got him right square on the head, and uh...
Lesh: A prettier shot you never saw.
Weir: ...and . . . he couldn't tell where it was comin' from, but then I had to go . . . and walk across the street and just grin at him...
Lesh, MM, DG:
Weir:...and sorta rub it in a little bit.
DG: Smilin' on a cloudy day. I understand now.
Lesh, DG:
MM: It all becomes clear.
Weir: . . . [A]t that point, he decided to hell with due process of law, this kid's goin' to jail. He didn't have a thing on me . . . It never got to court, but on the other hand, I did get thrown in jail and beat up a little bit.
MM: I still want to go back; you just happened to have that water balloon handy, it was kind of just like standard procedure.
DG: Gee, I wonder if...
Weir: He was the guy that was breakin' the law, too, the cop was.
MM: That's, that's - I agree.
Weir: I guess - . . . what does a water balloon amount to, is that assault with a, uh...
DG: Friendly weapon.
MM: With a moist weapon.
Lesh, DG:
MM: That goes under the water laws.
DG:
MM: And if it was tap water, that also...
Lesh: Disrespect for an officer.
Weir: Right.
DG: That was enough in those days - as I recall.
TripL7

Trad climber
san diego
Aug 27, 2010 - 02:36am PT
Sorry to here about this. Have enjoyed watching his videos/adventures over the years. Hopefully charges will be dropped or at least minimized.
jstan

climber
Aug 27, 2010 - 03:11am PT
According to Facebook his hearing is on the 14th. Nothing on which to go here.
maui_mark

climber
under a coconut tree
Aug 27, 2010 - 03:19am PT
BASE jumping is a PERMITTED ACTIVITY.

He got busted for performing an activity with-out a permit.

Parachute Delivery under current CFR regulations is a PERMITTED ACTIVITY.

SO ... what is the fine for CAMPING without a PERMIT??

HIKING without a PERMIT?

DO they throw you in JAIL?

TASER YOU?

BASE JUMPING in NPS is a PERMITTED ACTIVITY!!!

The NPS just REFUSE to accept and acknowledge anyones request for a PERMIT.

What if it was a GUN and the NPS shot AMMON and KILLED him for BASE??

How would ALL you feel??? EXCESSIVE FORCE is EXCESSIVE FORCE.
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Aug 27, 2010 - 03:31am PT
not to play devil's advocate-
(and i am against LEOs everywhere having tasers at all)

but- does anyone know, didn't someone trying to run away from rangers after a BASE jump in YV run into the river and then drown?

maybe that history leads them to limit a young and athletic person's likelihood of running away.
sounds like excessive force, but of course there are possible circumstances that would technically make it a reasonable use of force...

so how can anyone really comment without more (and accurate) info?

i like ammon.
liking ammon does not mean the LEO did anything technically wrong.




and wrt the actual reg.s for BASE in YV, my understanding is that everyone who jumps in YV knows the deal- don't get caught. nuff said.
Tradmedic

Ice climber
Thunder Bay, Ontario
Aug 27, 2010 - 04:02am PT
Ammon, you're my hero!
wallguy

Big Wall climber
Utah
Aug 27, 2010 - 04:41am PT
It most have been Lober. That guy is a d*#k!
Anastasia

climber
hanging from a crimp and crying for my mama.
Aug 27, 2010 - 07:57am PT
Yikes! :( Sorry Ammon for such a horrible experience. I don't understand this level of violence when all you are risking is your own life. It completely lacks proper reasoning.
AFS
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 27, 2010 - 08:16am PT
Where's the video? There has to be video. You can't poop nowadays without it being on video.

While Ammon may not be a dick, he may have been acting like one.

I am not siding with the LEOs (who I have many gripes about) but everyone is attacking them based on a short paragraph on a facebook page.
franky

Trad climber
Ford Pickup Truck, North America
Aug 27, 2010 - 08:48am PT
unless he physically attacked the ranger, then he didn't deserve to get tased.
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 27, 2010 - 08:57am PT
Franky - that's kind of my point. We don't know. There isn't even a description of the event on the facebook page.

Maybe he landed, sat down in the grass and waited for the LEOs. When they got there they cut loose on him.

Maybe they tried to talk to him and he started swinging in an adrenaline infused rage.

Maybe a little of both.

We just don't know.


BTW if you google this subject the first thing that shows up is this thread. The ad on the left side of the google page is for a place that sells tasers.
Les

Trad climber
Bahston
Aug 27, 2010 - 09:04am PT
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Aug 27, 2010 - 09:21am PT
I agree here with DMT!

We're living in "Alice in Wonderland" times now.

Quote, Queen of Hearts: "Let the punishment fit the crime, OFF WITH THEIR HEAD!"

I really don't approve of Tazering AT ALL! Taze someone with a pacemaker or bad heart is killing them, and use of lethal force. Just MHO.
Gilwad

climber
Frozen In Somewhere
Aug 27, 2010 - 09:30am PT
Matt-- Frank Gambalie died in the Merced river. He was trying to get away from the NPS after a jump. Only hung out with him a little but it was fun, his death really bothered me.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Aug 27, 2010 - 10:05am PT
I just can't get past the fact that tazing just seems like really excessive force in relation to the crime. As for the politics of whether BASE should be allowed in the first place... I'll leave that argument alone.
Scared Silly

Trad climber
UT
Aug 27, 2010 - 10:13am PT
This incident did not make the NPS Morning Report for the week

http://www.nps.gov/applications/morningreport/index.cfm

However, I did see that some illegals were busted for growing pot in the Park.

My speculative guess is that Ammon was fleeing the scene and was tasered. If so, then the question will become excessive force. Further, the accident with Frank Gambalie dying in the Merced whilst fleeing will be one of the first points brought up of why Ammon was tasered - for his own safety as they did not want a repeat accident. So they brought him down.

BTW It is my understanding that almost all permanent NPS Rangers eventually go through the LEO academy at some point.

rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
Aug 27, 2010 - 10:21am PT
Yes they do. It's called FLETC (Fed. Law Enforcement Training Center). They also have to do Field Training at another park afterwards.

I am really interested to hear the details of why it was necessary to tase him. If he resisted arrest by means of fleeing the scene, tasing was way out of line. If he did indeed physically resist, well, all bets of are off.

By the way, does anybody here have any info on what the NPS policy is regarding the use of non lethal weapons?
Derek

climber
Aug 27, 2010 - 10:50am PT
This is shocking.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 27, 2010 - 10:59am PT
If you're a BASE jumper you're a dead man walking anyway, why worry about a little Tasing?

Especially when you know what you're doing is illegal. When you contemplate breaking a law, don't you have to consider the consequences of dealing with The Man?
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Aug 27, 2010 - 11:04am PT
And I was "over-reacting" when I complained about these clowns running around with semi auto assault weapons pointed into traffic, all to respond to the giant emergency of an empty SUV sitting in a pullout.

At what point does it become completely transparent that these cowboys are WAAAYYY out of control?

TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Aug 27, 2010 - 11:24am PT
Which cowboys?
franky

Trad climber
Ford Pickup Truck, North America
Aug 27, 2010 - 11:33am PT
hey, someone lend me a BASE rig and teach me to jump so I can jump in protest. :)

not for selfish reasons, just to support Ammon.
Zander

Trad climber
Berkeley
Aug 27, 2010 - 11:44am PT
I don't know about this incident and I don't know Ammon but if I was a friend of his I wouldn't be mouthing off about law enforcement on the internet until after he works out the best deal he can.
Z
MisterE

Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
Aug 27, 2010 - 11:46am PT
I am glad Ammon is safe, although in a bit of trouble. Tasing seems a bit much, I would agree.

I don't understand this level of violence when all you are risking is your own life. It completely lacks proper reasoning.
AFS

I have been arrested for climbing a tree, they cited "Reckless Endangerment".

Reckless endangerment is a crime consisting of acts that create a substantial risk of serious physical injury to another person. The accused person isn't required to intend the resulting or potential harm, but must have acted in a way that showed a disregard for the foreseeable consequences of the actions

They said it wasn't about me potentially hurting myself, but I might land on someone if I fell. I imagine the officers could use similar reasoning in Ammon's case.
franky

Trad climber
Ford Pickup Truck, North America
Aug 27, 2010 - 11:47am PT
haha, that is awesome. arrested for climbing a tree because your flailing body might flatten someone. I want a ticket like that on my record just so i can explain it to people.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Aug 27, 2010 - 11:48am PT
We're living in "Alice in Wonderland" times now.



"Sentence first, Verdict Aaaftah!!"




100 base jumpers leaping off El Cap in protest, flying banners, "DON'T TAZE ME BRO!!"

jstan

climber
Aug 27, 2010 - 11:52am PT
"The Wolf

Trad climber
Friend of Dope

Aug 27, 2010 - 08:24am PT
I was privileged this week to announce that Ammon has become and Ambassador for our small company. He is a man of courage, spirit, and integrity. We are shocked and saddened that Ammon had to endure this experience resulting from activities that people in our "community" admire. We stand behind Ammon regardless of the outcome and look forward to a long relationship with this remarkable athlete.

Jeff Vargen
Dope Miller Equipment"

Dear Jeff:
Would I be incorrect were I to guess that your company deals in base jumping equipment?

We have had other incidents in which climbers have had difficulties with public land managers due to their efforts to advance their personal financial interests. It would be good for us to know whether this is yet another such incident.

If you do not mind, please do not include me as a member of your "community."
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Aug 27, 2010 - 11:57am PT
Dope Miller appears to be clothing, climbing related.

http://dopemiller.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=6&zenid=25289d693cc832ea4e0977edf76a5335
elcap-pics

Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
Aug 27, 2010 - 11:57am PT
you pay your money ..... you take your chances..... My good friend Ammon is no fool, although sometimes he can act like it, as we all can. He knows from the experience of many of our base jumping friends that the best thing to do is just cooperate and say nothing without the advice of a lawyer and let the legal system take its course. He obviously didn't do that .... life goes on... it could have been a lot worse.

Legalizing base jumping in yosemite is a very bad idea. It sounds nice but imagine 200 people jumping off the Captain every weekend. There would be people landing in trees, the river, on the road... the mess would be endless. Who is going to fetch these people up? Who is going to pay the bills? People would come from all over the world to do the Cap and the impact on the top would be bad, hell it is already bad from us climbers! It is like jumping off buildings in a city... not a good thing. I have seen some "expert" jumpers land in the river in front of the bridge and they supposedly knew what they were doing ... also a certain hero of mine, almost ate it off the cap and just opened in time to hit the base and break an ankle... and these guys are "experts". Imagine the carnage if just ANYONE could do it.

Sorry but IMHO, Yosemite is not the place for legalizing it. It is just the old cat and mouse game in a different format. Some times you eat, sometimes you get eaten.

I await the flack!
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 27, 2010 - 12:36pm PT
It has been more than a week hasn't it?

What is the 411?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 27, 2010 - 01:24pm PT
Ammon Bro, hope this thing slides through easy for ya. A sad day fo sure, but I support ya ...Better days ahead.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Aug 27, 2010 - 01:27pm PT
It's real hard for me to believe that Ammon didn't do something to warrant get tazed.
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 27, 2010 - 01:41pm PT
It is hypocritical to let us climb all over the walls and enjoy our sport of climbing and then discriminate against another group that wants to use the resources as well.

Cool, do you think they will use California's hunting regulations or some Federal regs?

I am also trying to decide which trail I will do my first Yosemite mountain bike ride on. I bet Yosemite Falls trail is one fun downhill.

Do you think they will mind if I leave my dirt bike hauler in the Curry parking lot while I do a bit of dirt biking there? My buddy is going to bring his ATV as well.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Aug 27, 2010 - 01:47pm PT
Man, sucks for Ammon. I hope he isnt banned from the parks and doesnt get sent to the clink, I think thats the biggest thign we should be worrying about. A little tasering? Ammon would probably get tasered on a dare, so I dont worry too much about him there ;D
doc bs

Social climber
Northwest
Aug 27, 2010 - 02:01pm PT
I agree that the violent scenery the valley climbers (and tourists) could be exposed to is daunting. Like free soloing, I believe this sort of activity is better done in private.

"Legalizing base jumping in yosemite is a very bad idea. It sounds nice but imagine 200 people jumping off the Captain every weekend. There would be people landing in trees, the river, on the road... the mess would be endless. Who is going to fetch these people up? Who is going to pay the bills? People would come from all over the world to do the Cap and the impact on the top would be bad, hell it is already bad from us climbers! It is like jumping off buildings in a city... not a good thing. "

YET, I am so sad Ammon got tased. I am happy his landing was safe so he can surprise us again with his antics.

KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK LITTLE MONKEY!!!
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Aug 27, 2010 - 02:15pm PT
Mark Hudon said

"It's real hard for me to believe that Ammon didn't do something to warrant get tazed."

That's a bunch of bullsh#t. Everybody knows the rangers have a hard-on for basejumpers.
Les

Trad climber
Bahston
Aug 27, 2010 - 02:29pm PT
man, I gotta say, some folks around here give WAY too much credit to cops' ability to restrain themselves by speculating that Ammon HAD to have done SOMETHING to get tased. There's plenty of good cops out there, but there's a good deal of bad ones, too, or at least some who are prone to overreact. Probably best to wait until some semblance of the truth (an investigation, court hearing, etc.) comes out before jumping to unfounded conclusions.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 27, 2010 - 02:32pm PT
I doubt it was Lobo since Ammon was not likely in a wheelchair.
FrankZappa

Trad climber
80' from the Hankster
Aug 27, 2010 - 02:40pm PT
Let's face it, although Ammon is harmless and a good dude, he did do something illegal, and we all know the Tool will jump at the chance to Taze someone. Hang in the ditch long enough and you're gonna get tooled.

Sorry that happened to you bro!
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Aug 27, 2010 - 02:43pm PT
Hope he is feeling better. Getting tazed is no fun.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Aug 27, 2010 - 03:26pm PT
lame.
wallguy

Big Wall climber
Utah
Aug 27, 2010 - 03:58pm PT
I got tasered at a blood for blood concert a while back, that s*%t was no joke. The f*%king cops had to get pretty damb close for it to work. My guess is that Ammon is getting a little slow in his old age. The El Cap Pirate got to feel the lightning, its a rush. Good luck in court old man! ha ha
Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Aug 27, 2010 - 04:31pm PT
This is shocking.

Nothing short of stunning.

Curt
Gunkie

Trad climber
East Coast US
Aug 27, 2010 - 04:38pm PT
I used to work for the father of Taser International CEO and the current legal council for TASR. Apparently, all employees had to be 'tazed'. Maybe Ammon can work for TASR now?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 27, 2010 - 05:26pm PT
There is such a profound cultural, social and political gulf between the US and Scandinavia that it's hard to know where to begin. Enough to say that the police in the US assume that those they are apprehending have guns, until they know otherwise. The police in Scandinavia, except perhaps in isolated situations, would likely be surprised if someone they arrested had or tried to use a gun.

There is a schizophrenic balance in the US between freedom and authoritarianism.
Ezra

Social climber
WA, NC, Idaho Falls
Aug 27, 2010 - 05:49pm PT
This is just sad! I doubt Ammon was posing a threat to the safety of the officer, I just doubt it.

Anders,You are incredibly perceptive, and I agree with you assessment once again!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 27, 2010 - 05:52pm PT
If you want to read about, and view, some horrific police misbehaviour, including gross misuse of tasers, the Robert Dziekanski incident at Vancouver airport in October 2007 is a graphic example - from Canada. One of several incidents over the last decade involving the RCMP, misuse of force, and cover-ups.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Dzieka%C5%84ski_Taser_incident
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Aug 27, 2010 - 06:00pm PT
be nice to the evil one. he's going to "fix" the williamson rock closure.

fixing 101--first thing you learn in cop school.
strangeday

Social climber
The O.C. baby!!
Aug 27, 2010 - 06:18pm PT
Yes , I would very much like Williamson open again.
MisterE

Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
Aug 27, 2010 - 06:20pm PT
Hey, Jeff. Couldja get SR2 out of LaCañada opened again too, while you're at it?

TIA, Erik
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 27, 2010 - 06:23pm PT
Thank goodness it was set to stun, not kill.
Captain...or Skully

Big Wall climber
Transporter Room 2
Aug 27, 2010 - 06:36pm PT
Ammon's a tough monkey.
He'll be fine. No big Deal.
He knew what could happen. Let folks do as they will.
Blakeb

Gym climber
Southern Oregon, behind her
Aug 27, 2010 - 06:44pm PT
First of all, anyone that thinks tazers are not lethal, google tazer deaths and read about them ya retards!

Second of all, he was tazed in the back of the neck, so sounds clearly like he was fleeing and not fighting. No one should be tazed for a non violent crime that threatened only themselves while jogging away.

Of course, he knew and understood the repercussions of what he was doing, so there is no need to write rude things about him.

Tom had some really good points in opposition of legalizing base jumping in the parks and ammons FB group about this asks for support for him and the legalization of base jumping in OUR parks.

He also specifically points out that this is not an anti-ranger thing and those of you on this thread bashing the rangers are just crippling him and our community further.

Support the cause or dont, but quit sh#t talking about both sides, its not helping anyone
wallguy

Big Wall climber
Utah
Aug 27, 2010 - 07:05pm PT
Anyone who has ever met Ammon knows he is crazy, but he isn't stupid. We all need to remember that Ammon is aware of the laws in the National Parks. The fact that he got busted and was tasered is not the end of the world. He will be back climbing and jumping off epic rocks before we know it.
I think this just shows the lack of respect that the rangers have for the BASE Jumping community. Lober you can kiss my A*%!
Slabby D

Trad climber
B'ham WA
Aug 27, 2010 - 07:31pm PT
Seems like running, jogging heck anything short of shuffling would be a challenge in a wingsuit.
Captain...or Skully

Big Wall climber
Transporter Room 2
Aug 27, 2010 - 07:44pm PT
PFFFFLLTT!

ALWAYS run. You MAY escape. If you don't run, there's zero chance that you'll escape.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 27, 2010 - 07:46pm PT
In 1974 a cop saw someone siphoning gas from my Jeep, jumped from the car and gave chase while his partner drove.

When I arrived they were bumming.

The thief had gotten away and the running cop had lost his gun.
Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Aug 27, 2010 - 07:53pm PT
Skully et al. have it right...
Ammon's a tough monkey.
He'll be fine. No big Deal.
He knew what could happen. Let folks do as they will.

I guarantee Ammon will not be whining about it like alot of you are.

It's the whiners that are probably responsible for Ammon getting tazed!
A few years back, some base jumper died because he ran into the river to get away from the LEOs, and drown.
How much do you want to bet (due to public outcry)that there were policy changes because of that, official or not.
How do you know Ammon wasn't running for the river?
Lets say hypothetically he ran into the Merced and drowned...
You same whiners would have your panties in a bunch, blaming the LEOs, because they didn't stop him!
My God! Is there anyway to apprehend someone that is non compliant that is
100% safe or that won't injure them in any way?
The LEOs were probably just doing as they are told.
Bullwinkle

Boulder climber
Aug 27, 2010 - 07:56pm PT
I know exactly what happened tha night. Amon was in no way a threat to the Rangers, he was running away from them. Both Rangers fired Tazer's at him, one barb hit him in the back of his neck. . .
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 27, 2010 - 08:05pm PT
Earl told me that tale too.
I have yet to hear of any witnesses.
Earl told me MANY stories.






Well, at least it sounds like a sporting hunt.

Two rangers vs one flying squirrel.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Arid-zona
Aug 27, 2010 - 08:11pm PT
lol Ron.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 27, 2010 - 08:17pm PT
Earl Redfern thread: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=165684
Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Aug 27, 2010 - 08:18pm PT
Amon was in no way a threat to the Rangers

Irrelevant.
He was a fleeing suspect.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 27, 2010 - 08:24pm PT
What's the Boone & Crocket record on flying squirrels?

(and how do you measure the racks on the bucks?)
Prod

Trad climber
Aug 27, 2010 - 08:29pm PT
Are there any facts in this thread yet? I really don't want to read 111 posts to find them. Any help???

Prod.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 27, 2010 - 08:35pm PT
Irrelevant.
He was a fleeing suspect.

So it is legal to use potentially deadly force to stop a fleeing subject? Just asking. I know it is legal to use such things as spike strips, that could hurt the fleeing subject by causing them to wreck. This is legal when the person is endangering others. So who was Ammon dangering when he was fleeing? Or why is it okay to tase someone who is running from what amounts to a ticketable offense? I know the rangers get frustrated because they probably have to chase lots of these guys. But is it really a good idea to tase someone in these circumstances. I can sort of understand the fear that the person might drown if they were heading towards the river. It must be hard to swim in one of those suits. But this isn't spring melt time. So who understands this? I really am just asking. And what happens if both tasers hit? Does he get a double dose and isn't that perhaps more dangerous?

Please understand that I am just asking. I really would like to understand this. I have friends who are LEOs and I know they are cool, but I have also been tooled and I have seen out of control rangers. So I know both sides of these situations.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Aug 27, 2010 - 08:39pm PT
Fat or other tools ? - is resisting the same as fleeing?
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Aug 27, 2010 - 08:43pm PT
This is just insane.

Anyone who will actually argue that a fleeing suspect from a base jump ought to be tazered is nuts. It's a misdemeanor and he was zero threat to the officers.

This country is getting crazy.

Good luck Mr. McNeely!
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Aug 27, 2010 - 08:57pm PT
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1252451/Yos-Marijuana-Plantation-Raided

Coincidence? Was Ammon fleeing the pot bust when he BASEd off El Cap?
murcy

climber
sanfrancisco
Aug 27, 2010 - 09:21pm PT
But a case could be made that Ammon poses a constant threat of danger to himself and others. :)
Hummerchine

Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
Aug 27, 2010 - 10:00pm PT
Holy Crap!

Just read all of this. TAZING a base jumper? That is just insane! I pretty much agree with most of what has been posted...

You base jump, you realize you are breaking the law and might get caught. But heck, who has not broken some law in their life realizing they might get caught? You speed on a deserted stretch of highway...should you get tazed? I mean, it's one thing to commit a crime that endangers anyone other than yourself...I just cannot get over this show of force for a base jumper.

Yes, the libertarian side of me thinks this activity should be legal. The realistic side can see why it is not. But tazing?

That is just bullsh#t. Whoever tazed him should be...TAZED!
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 27, 2010 - 10:10pm PT
I don't know what happened,

I just don't like the idea that a friend was Tasered for the act of jumping off a cliff and parachuting to the ground...

for that act he was met with a show of force way out of line with any implications or consequences of the jump he had just executed. I mean really, he just basically risks his life doing the base jump and then has to run for his life with the authorities having to prove they have control over the situation....

totally inappropriate.

Greg Barnes

climber
Aug 27, 2010 - 10:17pm PT
My first instinct is to agree with a lot of folks that it's way out of line to get tasered. But I'd have to hear the specifics first.

But, theoretically speaking, let's say someone runs for it after a base jump, a car chase is involved, and some little kid gets run over during the chase?

Then suddenly everyone would be singing a different tune.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 27, 2010 - 10:23pm PT
I never thought that "hot pursuit" was de facto justified...

the authorities wouldn't have been after Ammon if he hadn't jumped, if he hadn't violated "the rules"


jstan

climber
Aug 27, 2010 - 10:26pm PT
It is right that we all be very interested in this.

It is even more right that we wait until we have some information.
murcy

climber
sanfrancisco
Aug 27, 2010 - 10:30pm PT
Try substituting: if he hadn't run, he wouldn't have been decapitated. It's only because he resisted arrest for double-parking that he was decapitated.

MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Aug 27, 2010 - 10:32pm PT
Scott,

The rangers didn't kill anyone. That dude ran and jump into a swollen river.

Ed,

Ammon was not tasered for BASE. He was tased for resisting arrest or fleeing.

Fleeing/running from the cops probably made his misdemeanor a FELONY.

He went from a slap on the wrist to big trouble.

He is sure to get banded from national parks for years.
jstan

climber
Aug 27, 2010 - 10:41pm PT
What's happening Dingus?
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Aug 27, 2010 - 10:42pm PT
What did he really think was going to happen for flying the Jolly Roger?
There be ony two ranks of leader amongst us pirates! Captain and if your really notorious then it’s Cap’n! Cap'n McNeely. Yarrrr!
Zander

Trad climber
Berkeley
Aug 27, 2010 - 11:13pm PT
Some of you guys crack me up.
What is going on here is not some rational thing where you decide to break the law and you know what will happen. It’s a crap shoot. It’s the chimps of Gombe. It’s timeless and elemental. When you mess with the man, you just don’t know what will happen. In some ways he was lucky. It’s the USA, he just got tasered. Those poor three hikers are still in jail in Iran for just straying over the border- if they even did that. I don’t know what happened here but he took his chances. Some here have said he must have done something to tick them off. Not necessarily. People with guns get hyped up and the fight or flight mechanisms kick in and stuff happens. Is it right? No. Is it one of the reasonably expected out comes of a run in with the law? Yes.

DMT
I like “banded” better. “ Yeah, I jumped off El Cap and they banded me. Now when I migrate to south America every year they can track me and my flock.”

Zander
Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Aug 27, 2010 - 11:22pm PT
Sure, DMT...the arrest is bogus cuz they didn't run after him and tackle him?
So the cops should have to be able to outrun any perp, risk injury, and get into a physical altercation by catching, tackling and subdueing suspects, no matter their size and then you will be happy?
Or just let everyone that runs get away?

Don't you people know...
"if the police have to come and get you, they're bringin' an ass kickin' with them".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8
Zander

Trad climber
Berkeley
Aug 27, 2010 - 11:35pm PT
Hey Warbler,
I read your post and immediately started nodding, "Yeah, that makes sense." Except... as I get older I see events seem to get away from people. Rationality and control are a lot of the time an illusion. Events start and they take on their own twisted logic. I await the actual description of what happened but I doubt the clean cause and effect you describe. Actually, I wish the world was more rational and understandable as your post suggests.
Zander
MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Aug 27, 2010 - 11:39pm PT
The rangers SAVED ammon.

He was about to jump through traffic like frogger.

Ranger +1
R.B.

Trad climber
Land of the Volcanic Mud Flow
Aug 27, 2010 - 11:40pm PT
You know the 2nd Ammendment now allows people to carry firearms on Federal Lands such as National Parks. From what I hear, the FED law generally bends to the "State" Laws. But think about this one ... The supremacy clause of Federal Law ALWAYS trumps local or state law.

If you don't believe that ... Just asK the State of Arizona about the immigration law that the Obuma Admin. just sued them over. If it's good for the goose it's good for the gander!

So maybe the LEO's were afraid that the "evil" base jumper was gonna pull a pistola ... and pop a coupla caps in their arse.

That's probably why they tased 'em.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Aug 27, 2010 - 11:46pm PT
The Second Amendment says nothing about carrying guns in National Parks or on Federal Land.

BUT, President Obama recently signed a bill that allows people who have a Concealed Carry license to carry loaded and concealed in the National Park within that State that their license is valid. He is the first President to expand gun rights in this manner.


If you do not have a Concealed Carry license, then you can still bring a gun into a park, if the bullets are kept separate and the gun itself is like in the trunk and has a lock on it.

What you do with it, or course, once you disclose you have a gun with you in this fashion at the gate, is a different issue.
R.B.

Trad climber
Land of the Volcanic Mud Flow
Aug 27, 2010 - 11:48pm PT
Good point Norton, but the second ammendment is the right behind the basis of the new law ... so tangentially ... may be correct ... who cares?

edit: And when the law is challenged in federal court, I will bet the ruling will be that "State Law" has nothing to do with the right.

In other words ... Fed trumps State trumps County trumps Local. It's funny to see how many communities across the USA get this hierarchy wrong!

(since when did a State immigration Law override a Federal Law ... just ask Arizona ... seems like that's the trend?!)
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Aug 27, 2010 - 11:52pm PT
it is amazing how many opinions are being expressed even though nobody knows even one side of the story! I'm very interested to hear the most important three or four sides of the story so I can even start to form an opinion.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 27, 2010 - 11:52pm PT
I wonder if this is what happened.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJZCYv-EMsA&feature=related
Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Aug 28, 2010 - 12:04am PT
Not quite R.B....
State law trumps Fed Law unless it is unconstitutional or violates a Federal law.

Example: The Feds say you can own a fully automatic machine gun.
California Law says you can't. So in Kalifornia it is illegal to possess a machine gun.
Nevada law says it is OK, so...you get the idea.
Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Aug 28, 2010 - 12:09am PT
What could possible justify possibly killing Ammon or someone else, just to jump off El Cap?

Good question.
R.B.

Trad climber
Land of the Volcanic Mud Flow
Aug 28, 2010 - 12:10am PT
Mr Shack,

Do you suppose that someone has not the stones to throw at the State of California?

Fed ALWAYS trumps State ... Period ... just because CA says something ... don't make it constitutional (and therefore legal) soo ... it just takes one case to work up through the USA Supreme court to set the "interpretation" but above all ... all state governments swear an oath of allegiance to the USA constitution FIRST then the State constitution (because the state constitution MUST conform to the Fed Constitution.) and in some states, like CA, never the two twins shall meet.
MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Aug 28, 2010 - 12:13am PT
COZ AND SHACK

are thinking down the wrong path.

Get you head out of your ass.
Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Aug 28, 2010 - 12:20am PT
MTucker, you may want to read closer.
What Coz said and what I said are completely different.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 28, 2010 - 12:22am PT
It's a sorry old tale,

some young person decides to flaunt "the law" in a way not injurious to others

the authorities are determined not to allow that to happen

things escalate on both sides, each upping the ante, each more and more determined to see their side prevail

then something happens and someone is hurt or killed

and we are left asking, was it really so important that the ends were justified?

In my eyes, the "authorities" have the responsibility not to let the escalation happen on their side, as they have the ability to wield lethal force, so the consequences of their actions can be extreme.

There are other ways to apprehend someone besides running them down and forcing them to submit. It's just a matter of cost at best.

At worst it is a show of might.
MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Aug 28, 2010 - 12:31am PT
Shack,

It is not a good question.

The tasering was not because of the jump.

I will give you related.

Saying anything remotely about " rangers are killing because of base jumping" (Fox News Spin) is ridiculous and I will call you out.
Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Aug 28, 2010 - 12:35am PT
Do you suppose that someone has not the stones to throw at the State of California?

Many stones have been thrown R.B. by many different people/groups like NRA etc.
Basically since Kal law still allows someone to technically "keep and bear arms" the Feds won't do anything. The courts hear cases all the time challenging the laws and restrictions already in place as well as the multitude that Kal wants to pass, but until it gets to a Federal or Supreme court level it doesn't mean anything.

You see, it goes back to States Rights versus Federal rights.
States do have the power to make their own laws. The Feds should stay out of states business and just do the things that are required at the Federal level.
Example: Kalifornia has the right to allow Medical Marijuana in this scenario. there shouldn't be any Federal ban on Maryjane.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Aug 28, 2010 - 12:41am PT
Gentlemen please, let's all ban together for some grammar and spelling.
Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Aug 28, 2010 - 12:50am PT
Sorry Tucker, you are misunderstanding my post.
If you read all of my posts you might get a better idea.
In that post in response to Coz was pointing out the irony of being shocked that the rangers would,
"risk injuring or possibly killing" Ammon,
when in fact Ammon had already placed himself at "risk of injury or possibly killing" himself simply by doing what he did.
Don't tell me he didn't know what was in store.
He has been around and knew of all those that had gone before.
There are lots of stories out there that go way back.

I wish he had gotten away, but he knew getting caught was a possibility.
Was it GDavis that said he probably would've taken a Taze on a dare anyways?
Sucks, but the charges are probably more substantial now.
Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Aug 28, 2010 - 12:52am PT
Sorry Wade, you obviously have no idea how lazy I am. :)

There, I fixed it.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Aug 28, 2010 - 12:58am PT
Shack- 'round these parts you're Literati.
I was broadcasting to a wider audience...

Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Aug 28, 2010 - 01:21am PT
obviously there was a mis calculation on somebody's part.

the base jumper never should have been seen in the first place.

maybe he was all wired up on red bull or something.

i almost got tasered the other day by a traffic cop after 16 red bulls.

i ran over some cones to get into Kirks Steakburgers, so i am in line and the next thing ya know, johhny law is taking me outside,

sat me down on the side walk but i talked my way out with a cheeseburger.

never run in a car, that is just a nightmare fore everybody in the world.

but if you have a chance on foot,

i mean if you are down in a steep canyon and a big ol ranger asks you to please stop while he takes a shot off his inhaler,

by all means, the leo should be dispatched, i mean, c'mon,

how many times,

besides, it;s a rush to ditch the cops,

we used to swing on the flag pole at grant school until the cops showed up.

then we would sprint down to the play ground and lay flat as a pancake behind the six inch high tanbark enclosure,

the poor cops didn't have a clue, flash lights a danglin,

i don't think they ever did figure out how we could run so fast,
MeatBomb

Gym climber
Boise, I dee Hoe
Aug 28, 2010 - 01:25am PT
Ammon posts here right? Maybe someday we can get the real story?
Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Aug 28, 2010 - 01:27am PT
I know Wade, but I realized I was guilty too.
R.B.

Trad climber
Land of the Volcanic Mud Flow
Aug 28, 2010 - 01:34am PT
I was at the base of El Crap in '92 gearin up for the Shield route.

I heard what sounded like a big friggin rock cuttin air and burning into the the talus at the base ... then all the sudden ... poof and it sounds like a sail boat's sail. We heard over 10 BASE jumpers do their thing. Floating gracefully over to the meadow and quickly collapsing the chutes ... to a waiting vehicle.

So, it's all about logistics. Sounds like something did not go according to plan.

With that said, hope that noone is hurt doing this ... and being tasered is overkill.

quite simply it appears the cops have over-reacted to this one.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Aug 28, 2010 - 01:44am PT
planet yosemite - a strange place indeed.
chased down in your spandex by mutants.
i wonder what the bears thought.

they should change the name to Yosemite National Nark.

or Yosemite Irrational Park.

Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 28, 2010 - 01:58am PT
Are there any facts in this thread yet? I really don't want to read 111 posts to find them. Any help???

Prod - you know the answer!

The first thing I was told at the Curry Co. orientation is "you are no longer in California. California's liberal laws do not apply here. Everything is a Federal offense."

TripL7

Trad climber
san diego
Aug 28, 2010 - 02:10am PT
Wade Icey,

It's "let's all band together."...not "Let's all ban together."

I noticed MH caught a spelling error of yours(speech vs. speach)earlier.

Yer having a bad grammar & spelling day, eh!

I'm worse(rely heavily on spell check)...no disrespect intended.

Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Aug 28, 2010 - 02:27am PT
Trip-you're not reading with intent. I am writing within tent.
TrundleBum

Trad climber
Las Vegas
Aug 28, 2010 - 06:13am PT
Entertaining thread drift,
But as I see it,
bottom line

If Ammon is the/a perpetrator...
Then who's the victim?








drljefe

climber
Old Pueblo, AZ
Aug 28, 2010 - 11:21am PT
Wade, could you help coz out, please?
Captain...or Skully

Big Wall climber
Transporter Room 2
Aug 28, 2010 - 11:42am PT
It's a rogue spelling.
The whole thread is littered with rogues.
Fight or flight, the Tool must tool.
Hummerchine

Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
Aug 28, 2010 - 12:27pm PT
I'm amazed that the cops were there to catch Ammon, or any other base jumper. What, do they have some sort of base patrol? I would think they would be looking the other way.

Guess I'd be wrong. What a waste of tax dollars and resources.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Aug 28, 2010 - 01:20pm PT
i wonder if this is the same dude i saw at j tree,

we had a yosemite ranger/climber dude in our party who could have passed for a skin head if he got a shave.

i started talking about dano and this white arian youth who looked like he was on the juice, starting a rant about right and wrong and who broke the rules and blah blah blah,

i'm like, great, a climbing trip with frickin jack webb.


when i broke out the chronic steam poured out his ears,


Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Aug 28, 2010 - 01:24pm PT
Fatty is probably too mellow to be a real skull cracker,

i just don't see an ounce of cop in the guy,

i guess when that badge goes on, the plug goes in the 220 socket,


when you run, it scares the sh#t out of the cops too.

that is another reason they don't like it, besides pubic safety.

the guy who cuffed me was shaking so bad, it took him 5 minutes to snap those suckers shut.


Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Aug 28, 2010 - 01:31pm PT
so what is the most dangerous thing about base jumping?



Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Aug 28, 2010 - 01:39pm PT
when a situation goes jungle, things get real scary.

that is one thing i have respect for in our pubic servants.

if you have ever been in a "situation", you know what i'm talkin about.

so to deal with that every day, no thanks.

but cops are trained to react under stress, the rangers?

i don't think so.

so a situation like this is best called in and handled by people who know

what the f they are doing.

like setting up a perimeter, using some radios, maybe?

now we have a dirty arrest which means more court time and all that coorporate jive.

i don't want any more paper in my mailbox,
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Aug 28, 2010 - 01:44pm PT
we have a Fremont cop that got shot up by some punk, full prayers going out,

some bad motor scooters these guys have to deal with.

but base jumpers usually don't pack heat, it changes the glide path.

ß Î Ø T Ç H

climber
Aug 28, 2010 - 01:49pm PT
"No wonder climbers are the usual suspects in the Valley, when so many willfully break the posted rules."

Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Aug 28, 2010 - 01:51pm PT
hey Fatty, ever read this book?

col Rex was a relative of mine up there in oregon,

Badwaters

Big Wall climber
Alaska
Aug 28, 2010 - 01:54pm PT
This coz dork sounds pretty arrogant. Brags about hanging out with Spec ops guys? Spec ops guys HATE bragging babies like this chump coz. You quite clearly have no clue regarding anything about law, you sound like such a moron with your "Ammon is a brother" drivel it is astounding.
I've gotta feel sorry for the folks of your generation having to hang out and climb with you, deep arrogance and ignorance are a bad combo, you, coz, are an expert in both it seems. Ammon broke the law, he very obviously did something that made LEO Taser him, get over it.


Good luck with your lawsuits against the NPS rangers!!
lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Aug 28, 2010 - 02:33pm PT
For what it's worth, I appreciate fattrad's perspective as a former cop.
It sounds very real and realistic to me.
I don't read the political threads, or look at fox news (I've heard it is more of an "entertainment" perspective, not real news).
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 28, 2010 - 02:41pm PT
Well based on the assumption that he was running and shot in the back of the neck:

1. He got zapped for running not jumping.

2. Pretty pansy ass ranger who cant run him down so resorts to a weapon that can kill. If he was being chased for a serious crime sure, but base? Power tripper alert!

3. Eveyone commits crime such as speeding so keep your stepford wife "don't do ANY crime" sheeple talk to yourself.

Imo base should be allowed a few days a year in the off season. It does impact the other thousands of people there so you can't have it everyday. Since that won't happen some people do what they think is ok and jump anyway. Its just lame someone resorted to a taser because they didn't have the fitness or brains to catch him another way.

Btw the rangers don't have any responsibility for Frank, HE chose to jump in the river.
atchafalaya

climber
Babylon
Aug 28, 2010 - 02:52pm PT
The only problem I have with the use of the taser is that noone has posted video of it yet. Surely someone was filming.... Post it, itx gotta be hilarious.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 28, 2010 - 03:06pm PT
Bullwinkle saw it.

Was he running with the chute?
Brunosafari

Boulder climber
OR
Aug 28, 2010 - 03:30pm PT
Wow, this thread is getting carcinogenic.

Sorry Fad, Crag, and Bad, but principle should guide action and not the other way around.

Is there any way Tazer use can be justified for subduing a BASE Jumper in a National Park, even in the wake of a recent Fatality under similar circumstance? 'Come - On!

But I do agree with Crag that we don't know the facts. Maybe he was under verbal contract, making a Dew Commercial and that would get him a good attorney and a real Judge instead of judgmental people.

We all know the law can error in many ways --The Gospel teaches us that.

As The Master Said, "A Tree is Known by its Fruit."

We are looking, most likely, at an overly fertilized, Trigger Finger Tree.
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Aug 28, 2010 - 03:50pm PT
Is everyone here forgetting you are talking about a BASE JUMPER.

I think he can handle 1,200 volts delivered at .03 amps.

He can also handle the consequences of his actions.

Crying about "the man" is weak.

Brunosafari

Boulder climber
OR
Aug 28, 2010 - 03:55pm PT
you are supertuff, pud!
Pennsylenvy

Gym climber
A dingy corner in your refrigerator
Aug 28, 2010 - 04:23pm PT
I will reserve judgement until more facts on this matter. Only been to the valley 2 times tooled severly once, fuked with the other time. Outside of YOS national park NO run ins with LEO for 25yrs....nuf said.
elcap-pics

Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
Aug 28, 2010 - 05:59pm PT
This discussion sounds like the Republicans continuing to talk about nonexistant "death panels" even after they knew there were none in the health bill.
I do not think Ammon was tased because he was base jumping. Yet several of you continue to promote the idea that Base jumping = tasing. That is not a valid equation. Others say he was not doing anything illegal. Come on guys... reality check please... he DID something illegal... Ok?... LEO's swear an oath to uphold the law. So they upheld it. He got caught, too bad for him.

If you know Ammon, you know he doesn't respond well to authority... and IF he was PERHAPS bitten by a few KCobras before the jump, then who knows what what really happened?

This whole discussion is reminiscent of Chongo's situation in the valley when everyone was all excited because he finally got busted for living illegally in the valley for YEARS. The fact that he was guilty seemed to make no difference to them! Hell, some people even went into Federal court and lied for him! We naturally want our friends to suffer as little as possible for their mistakes but whining about him getting caught, when he knew the law and the consequences of breaking it, is just so much wasted energy. Several years ago I was busted for selling photos to tourists.. I could have bolted for the car but what is the point of that? I was guilty and I knew it so I went along quietly and had my day in court. That's what responsible people do. You fight it out in court, not with the arresting officers.. there is no possible good that can come from running... it only makes things get worse.

Ammon, if you are reading all this drivel, please do not respond in any way, on any forum.... anything you say will be used against you and in any legal matter it is foolish to say anything to anyone but your lawyer.

Ammon will have his day in court and all the bashing and whining here will make no difference. We all wish him the best... the rest is just people venting their own frustrations in their own lives.

I hope these will be my last words on this topic..


MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Aug 28, 2010 - 06:02pm PT
COZ

Read above.
Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Aug 28, 2010 - 07:14pm PT
Well said Tom.
cintune

climber
the Moon and Antarctica
Aug 28, 2010 - 08:07pm PT
Um, yeah, seeing as he hasn't posted anything so far, it's probably safe to assume he's figured that out.


http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/150368
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 28, 2010 - 08:46pm PT
I just instant messaged a bit with Ammon, and he told me the basics. I believe you will all be outraged when you hear the particulars, as I was. What he told me, he revealed to me in confidence, so please don't ask.

Obviously he is knott going to comment here nor anywhere else.

From the sounds of things, you have not heard the end of this, not by a longshot. I wish Ammon the best!
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 28, 2010 - 09:08pm PT
So he WAS driving with a mad woman?



"He got weed! He got weed!"
rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
Aug 28, 2010 - 10:20pm PT
"I just instant messaged a bit with Ammon, and he told me the basics. I believe you will all be outraged when you hear the particulars, as I was. What he told me, he revealed to me in confidence, so please don't ask. "

Then just keep your mouth shut and do not post that you even spoke with him on a public forum.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Aug 28, 2010 - 10:20pm PT
refer? i'd like some refer,

KyleO

Gym climber
Calgary, AB
Aug 28, 2010 - 10:30pm PT
^





lol...cintune


Quite unbelievable to say the least. Good luck Ammon, on the outcome. The NPS has changed and it is noticable not only in the south, but in Canada as well...
MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Aug 28, 2010 - 10:51pm PT
Sure, what ever Pete. Adding fuel to a non-existent fire.

Everyone on the wrong side of the law feels like they were abused and will get their day in court and their day of revenge.

Cops have a large latitude and protections when dealing with criminals.

This ain't no Rodney King.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Aug 28, 2010 - 10:58pm PT
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Aug 29, 2010 - 12:41am PT
Out of five confirmed 5.14 climbs,

sheist!
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Aug 29, 2010 - 01:32am PT
hey there all, say, .... very sorry to hear the whole thing.... just got back online and hoped to hear that all are well...

hard things for all involved, in this, truly said...

well, hope things work-out best for all involved, in the long run...
:(



*fattrad, say, thanks for the advice about "not running"---i know a few young folks that know OTHER young folks, and this may someday be good advice for them, one never knows...


also---i am very glad that ammon is alive... it would have been awful, if this had turned out in a death, as we sadly are sometimes seeing such hard-sad-headlines here... :(
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 29, 2010 - 02:15am PT
Obviously we don't have the details yet so It's a bit dangerous to comment, but two points

1. If Ammon was tasered inappropriately, they will likely drop his case to avoid bringing it to the attention of the judge and such. That might be better than the legal treatment that other base jumpers get.

2. Law enforcement has cultural attitudes. For some reason, Yosemite Law tends to regard base jumping as an offensive, serious crime. They spend serious time and money staking out jumpers. In my mind, the attitude towards jumpers is out of line with the danger that jumpers pose to the resource and others. This might have played a part in the treatment Ammon got. Do you taser all fleeing suspects? Where does LEO draw the line? Maybe they feel if you need to flee, they need to stop you? I don't know how the law reads. You have to be close to tase so it's plain we just don't know what happened.

I have met some fine and professional LEO in Yosemite, but I certainly can't speak for all of them. Let's see what facts come up. Whatever happens, Ammon is a great guy and I hope he comes out of this Ok.

Peace

karl
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Aug 29, 2010 - 02:15am PT
Jaywalking, riding a bike without a light, talking on your cell phone while driving, driving with a headlight out. I guess these are all taserable offenses now. Where do they draw the line? As there should be a line drawn, and not left up to the cops "latitude".
Totally chickenshit to taze a base jumper.
Watusi

Social climber
Newport, OR
Aug 29, 2010 - 06:18am PT
I can say those Rangers aren't the sharpest "Tools" in the shed...
Badwaters

Big Wall climber
Alaska
Aug 29, 2010 - 10:41am PT
People like coz make climbers look pretty dumb, his posts exude ignorance.

Dano was killed because of his own shortcomings regarding his own rigging and mistakes, to bring his death into this discussion is beyond pathetic and a sign of deep ignorance, and frankly just plain disgusting. You forgot the fact he was also caught with a bag of cocaine, not just a loaded handgun.

Frank decided to run, no LEO made that decision for him, he died. It was his decision to run for it! His death also has absolutely nothing to do with the arrest of Ammon.


Why you insist making wild claims that Ammon was Tasered because he was caught BASE jumping has not one fact to back that false narrative. Tom made it quite clear, wait for the facts. I doubt you're correct with your wild and baseless assumptions


Get a grip dude, you're as clueless as they come!! The LEO Rangers are real cops no matter how much you hate them.
Badwaters

Big Wall climber
Alaska
Aug 29, 2010 - 11:48am PT
Erza, that is Scott Cosgrove.

And so what if someone was/is a good climber, he lacks common sense and a grip of reality.


And besides, Scott called out Sean Jones about his route on Half Dome with loads of silly comments including one where he said he wanted to kick his ass! He even eluded to the fact he was in the company of special forces members during that discussion for what reason exactly? Intimidation?
Badwaters

Big Wall climber
Alaska
Aug 29, 2010 - 12:09pm PT
BASE 104,
I've met Tom and I agree, very nice man. And very brilliant as well.
Argon

climber
North Bay, CA
Aug 29, 2010 - 12:24pm PT
"The LEO Rangers are real cops no matter how much you hate them."

Good point Badwaters - but I think that is the crux of matter. These LEO's did indeed act like real cops rather than like tolerant and enlightened stewards of a public treasure. I just saw another poignant example of the behavior of real cops. Check out the latest HBO Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel for an update on the shooting by police of Robert Tolan. Tolan is a minor league baseball player and son of former major leaguer Bobby Tolan. He was shot multiple times right in front of his parents at their home in Bellaire Texas by another chickensttt cop. Don't know if this cop had a taser - but he was shooting to kill. Here's a link to the story:

http://www.hbo.com/real-sports-with-bryant-gumbel/index.html

Badwaters

Big Wall climber
Alaska
Aug 29, 2010 - 12:34pm PT
Lovegasoline

Yep, Tasers are anything but nonlethal.
Cops shouldn't carry a Taser, true nonlethal methods of subduing suspected criminals are available.
Badwaters

Big Wall climber
Alaska
Aug 29, 2010 - 12:36pm PT
Coz, you implied it was the rangers fault by saying:
One dead, two dead.
I read your post, it was painful.

Dano and Frank's deaths have absolutely nothing to do with Ammon's arrest. To bring up their stories in the way you did was clearly to imply the rangers had something to do with their deaths even when you say otherwise.
Badwaters

Big Wall climber
Alaska
Aug 29, 2010 - 12:42pm PT
I agree fattrad.
Why some people think because they're famous climbers (lame) they can somehow be treated in a special manner by LEO is astounding.
You play, you pay.
But the Taser needs to be dumped. I read you post regarding how using nonlethal force to subdue suspects prevents injuries and such, but Tasers do kill people on occasion.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Aug 29, 2010 - 12:43pm PT
interesting story about the indians, 104. a recent thread on here about shiprock kinda opened my eyes about stuff like that. there has long been an official tribal ban on the climbing there, but lots of local indians are sympathetic to us and a couple of them have even tried it themselves.

just a suggestion here from a former newsman. there ought to be some kind of news release about the arrest that ought to be public record and which would help focus this discussion. it wouldn't necessarily jeopardize either ammon's case or the government's if the matter ever came to court. the government owes the public an official version of what it did. doesn't mean you have to believe it, but at least you won't have to speculate as wildly as you're doing here.

my only problem with BASE is that it can suck some really good partners away from climbing.
Argon

climber
North Bay, CA
Aug 29, 2010 - 01:01pm PT
Chris Rock video is funny, sad but great advice. If Robert Tolan had followed it, maybe he wouldn't have been shot - particularly the advice to have a white friend with you. But the advice is sound - if stopped by the man, submit and lick his jackboot. You are likely dealing with an undertrained, over-entitled young man with an itchy trigger finger.
sunshinedaydream

Trad climber
the big granite bubble
Aug 29, 2010 - 01:06pm PT
My my we are such a culture of REACTING.... where is the wisdom in all this?

Its ironic how Yosemite LEO's can go from heroes to criminals overnight on this forum. Who do you think will be there, no questions asked, when you (judgmental climbing community) break your femur, or skull on El Cap and need to be taken off and flown as quickly as possible out so you can get to surgery and live to climb another day?

elcap-pics

Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
Aug 29, 2010 - 01:10pm PT
Coz .. you said I would have felt differently if I had been tased for selling my photos... that is the point... I was busted for it and not tased... why? I didn't try to escape!! Had I ran I could have been tased for resisting arrest... not for selling photos! See.... run and you are resisting arrest so you get tased to stop you.... cooperate and you go to the jail, get your paperwork, go home.

That said... I was not there and maybe Ammon didn't run or do anything but stand there and they ganged up on him and tased him just to teach him a lesson ... I don't know and I am making the BIG ASSUMPTION that people aren't tased without some valid legal reason. I don't know anything factual and most of you don't either... speculation is something to fill our time until facts are known. Like I said before... none of the bashing and whining on this post makes the slightest difference... and of course Locker is right ... it is an open forum and every one is entitled to whine and bash all the want!!!

Best of luck to my friend Ammon....
Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Aug 29, 2010 - 01:13pm PT
Once again Tom, an excellent post.


Maybe Ammon didn't have the best plan or the tightest secrecy?
Perhaps there is a mole amongst Ammons circle of friends that tipped off the LEOs?
Or what if...
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 29, 2010 - 01:15pm PT
If you don't want to be 'mistreated' by LEO, don't break the rules. The 'rules' are in place for a reason (most of them). Some are just to make LEO jobs easier. Ones like 'no glass containers', are just for irresponsible punks, but can lead to folks like myself engaging in 'illegal activity'.

I break them on a regular basis, but you can't whine about it when you get 'caught'. You knew the rules! Ammon probably won't whine.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 29, 2010 - 01:20pm PT
Its ironic how Yosemite LEO's can go from heroes to criminals overnight on this forum.

Not ironic. Most rangers in the park are great guys, but some are tools, and were known tools for a long time. If you have ever been hardcore tooled in the park, then you might understand this. I have the deepest respect for many rangers. Others I think should be fired.

The only reason I have posted to this thread is to express my concern over the use of Tasers. I am also glad that we are having this discussion because I think Tom makes a valid point and helps me understand better. I also appreciate Base104s comments. When you run, you change the experience. But I still have doubts of using a Taser to stop someone from running away from a ticketable offense.
Badwaters

Big Wall climber
Alaska
Aug 29, 2010 - 01:25pm PT
Coz.
I read you post(s). I don't need anyone to explain juvenile drivel, thanks.
Most cowards like you back of when its clear you've lost due to deep ignorance.

You very clearly didn't take the higher road when you made an effort to imply the rangers had something to do with Dano and Franks death and then went on to say then we have Ammon getting Tasered. You cannot escape the fact you made an effort to imply the rangers had a hand in both of those deaths.

"Now Ammon, taser in the back of the neck with a wing suit on. Could have been three dead, and for what? Base jumping! Not rape, murder, armed robbery but base and rope jumping." coz

Could have been three dead?? In your own words.
Ammon was Tasered, and you have absolutely no reason to say he was Tasered for BASE jumping. The facts will come out and more than likely he resisted arrest.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Aug 29, 2010 - 01:40pm PT
it is We who impower our law enforcement officers.

We decide how they should operate.

not the leo at each individual station.

germany is That a way.

We do not like it when the people We pay for F*#k Up.

Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Aug 29, 2010 - 02:08pm PT
fatty, you have any evidence photos from that "bust" ?


HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
Aug 29, 2010 - 02:12pm PT
Most "people" lack the common sense Chris Rock is describing.


In this thread, Fatty portrays comedic hyperbole as "common sense."


"A white friend can be the difference between a ticket and a bullet in the ass."
Badwaters

Big Wall climber
Alaska
Aug 29, 2010 - 02:23pm PT
Good post Riley.
A quote from MLK:


"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

Here is a link to the full letter from the Birmingham jail:

http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Aug 29, 2010 - 02:24pm PT
Fatty brought one of those blond chicks down to the crag,

must have been some plea bargaining going on, now i get it.

here's fatty on the way to the bust,

no seat belts, thats a 10 dollah fine rite dere>


so when will it be safe to climb in the park again?

did they catch the ranger who did this?

is he locked up yet?

they have a jail right there in the park, ya know.

been there many a time,

illegal firefall from the pt,

trundling a landslide into mirror lake,

you name it, been there, done that,

sexual assault on a beagle, oh yeah.......
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Aug 29, 2010 - 03:44pm PT
so if we tazer an officer, it is not attempted murder on a police officer?

only assault on a peace officer?

either way, it's a cavity search,

all the cops wear blue gloves in my hood.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 29, 2010 - 03:49pm PT
They are a product of their environment and,like most humans, are not any more capable of critical thinking and leaderhip than a rock.

What a pile of shit!

Are you serious with that generalization?
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Aug 29, 2010 - 04:22pm PT
Fattrad - let me see if your sheriffs department has any credibility...

"....Some nice citizens of Malibu complain about nude sunbathers in this tiny cove which is out of view of the families (Pirates Cove/Pt Dume Climbing). They complain to the captain of the station, who tells me and a few other deputies to go arrest everyone naked on that beach."

 ok.. citizen has problem. Goes to sheriff, blah, blah, blah, make it stop. Sheriff, a real reactionary, but being only one person, has flunkies who follow orders without question to arrest other good citizens...

The problem?

Who said it was illegal? Any signs? Why not move to get signs made, go to the beach and roust the naked folks letting them know that the police have been getting complaints, and to please not to the sunbathing here, meanwhile, signs are being made, next day, post the sign, then, if anyone gets naked, you have every right to arrest...

But no.. that's not how it works in your part of that departments... and this is the problem, pretty much across the board in America. Let me guess.. more conservatives/repugs than anything else in that town? (don't tell me.. I'm wrong in every way, on everything.. Except this is what you described to us.. )



"So, sixty people are marched up the hill, put into a jail bus and driven all the way downtown because "The People" had spoken."

 And you want along with it, without thought, without question.. you just wne along with it whether it was right, wrong, American, or Unamerican.. you followed orders..


"Most "people" lack the common sense Chris Rock is describing."

 ha!!!

I'd have to include a few police officers, and captains with this lumping in of most "people" (I'm assuming that when you put quotes around "people" you mean white, non-prisoner, believers on god, and so on... and not any "others")


"Oh, and I had better things to do, like get womens #'s on the beach."

 good to know you had your head in the right place, even when peoples rights were being violated by the state/local police.. And you were such a catch....

good call fattrad. good call. Something to proud of. Put it in a memoir!


cheers



Post Edit: Too bad people insist on sending me over to facebook...
elcap-pics

Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
Aug 29, 2010 - 05:53pm PT
Riley you keep on saying he was tased for jumping off a rock... seems like a broken record to me.... I think he was tased for resisting arrest but I have no basis for that in fact... just seems far more likely to me. Others who have gotten caught, Fernando for instance, was not tased but was arrested, paid a fine, lost his chute, had to stay out of the park for some time... why wasn't he tased if your assertion that base jumpers get tased is true? Do you know of ANY OTHER base jumpers who have been tased?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 29, 2010 - 06:09pm PT
Yeah, I don't think he was tased for jumping, but I do suspect they recognized him and because of previous difficulties had no problem taking off the white gloves when he tried to bolt and didn't hesitate to administer a little corporeal punishment, albeit cowardly by battery powered remote, when the excuse presented itself.


Most rangers do an excellent job overall, but demeanor can change substantially when dealing with certain people.

The problem mostly lies with the wannabe cops who don't have real criminals to deal with so they try to practice on those who's attitudes they don't like.


Mark my words.
Tarz

Mountain climber
Calli
Aug 29, 2010 - 06:14pm PT
Hey Tom, He DID NOT resist. Its a fact. Since you get jollies and some of your income from your exploitation of the climbers on El Cap, why don't you give them some benefit of the doubt. You like a few other people on here are jumping to conclusions. Speculation is nothing but speculation. Wait for th facts to come out to voice opinions of Ammon and the situation. Have a nice day!
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 29, 2010 - 06:31pm PT
Tarz - where's your proof?
Tarz

Mountain climber
Calli
Aug 29, 2010 - 06:42pm PT
He gave us the details over dinner along with a witness's account. Quite interesting. We'll see how it plays out. Later....
elcap-pics

Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
Aug 29, 2010 - 07:25pm PT
Well I have certainly pointed out that I have none of the facts and am just speculating. I just hope that some of the "witnesses" are not the ones who thought it ok to lie in court in the Chongo case, as that was in a big way responsible for the lack of trust/respect the law in yosemite has for climbers/basers. That's one reason I don't give anyone the benefit of the doubt but SPECULATE on what seems to me to be the most reasonable explanation.

Listen ... all the posts on this thread are speculation... that's what we all do most of the time here. Of that I am well aware but that is what is propelling this story at the moment. So we ALL get to speculate!!

I think the best thing at this point for Ammon is to make a deal with the prosecutor and be done with it. But, if what you say is true, and I am not convinced of it yet, then he does have legal grounds for a suit that could be quite a benefit to him in the long run... whatever happens will all play out soon and no one wishes Ammon more luck than I do. And I know if he is at fault then he will man up and admitt it.... if not at fault then it will be decided in the court.

As for my "exploitation of climbers"... funniest thing I've read all day! Funny thing is that my exploitation of climbers has cost ME thousands of dollars over the years.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Aug 29, 2010 - 07:29pm PT
I can’t resist, I have to post

Two things….

Firstly, I cannot believe I took time to read all of this thread, and then to respond to it. Especially with my new task as a full-time care giver to my fiancée. Three days into the job and I realize I have my work cut out for me.

At least I can be on the granite in Dalkey Quarry within five-minutes walk of the front door. Or the fitness centre at Fitzpatrick’s Castle, about the same distance.

But I found this thread ‘compelling’.

Having very, very little facts, and not know any of the people involved I cannot come to any ‘judgment’ or opinion as such.

In most probability, on one incident in YOS (see below) that I experienced, the ranger may have over-reacted.

Until the facts (rather turn out to be true or not, heh heh, depending on one’s point of view or the other’s – perhaps those that can manipulate records and files) are made public, or common knowledge – as such – then most of us can only speculate as to what happened.

Did he resist? Did he just turn and run when confronted? Was there a threat of violence from the ‘perp’? Was…? What…? How…? etc, ad nauseam.

Time will (perhaps) tell.

Now 1976… (I have told this story on the forum before, but perhaps this is the most appropriate place for it).

Quickly here, I’ll try to be short (at 5’6” some people may say I am, to Lilliputians, not) as possible

I was staying in C4 but I drove over to the Curry car park to take a shower in C employees showers. I was still high from a ‘trip’ that a certain David and I did that day.

As I was going back to the car a Curry security bloke and a LEO ranger stopped me. The LEO marched me back to my car to get my ID (Cali Driver’s Licence) that was in the glove box. As I reached in, from the passenger’s side, to the glove box, he pulled his gun on me. Sh#t was I scared, still tripping a bit, and a gun pointing at me. Never happened to me before.

As it was, he told me to get out of the parking lot, so I drove over to C4 and found a spot.

There is an aftermath/”follow-on” to this story, but it is not pertinent, for the most part, to this thread.

Needless to say, I probably was acting weird to the LEO (coming down from acid… no, not the ranger, me!). I could have been reaching for a weapon in the glove box, especially considering my behavior (highish) so he “plays” it safe.

If he had a Tazer would have he used it? Who knows.

Do I blame him for pulling his gun? No, not really, considering my behavior (highish), and especially as it was things turned out “okay”. Except for the following “rescue” scenario later that evening (which got David Y a dinner at the Four Seasons and me a lot of grief with the aforementioned ranger).

Now back to the thread, I do not know what happened, and until we hear both sides of the story, perhaps we will… or won’t know what happened.

And I am not taking any sides. Fence-straddling, so to speak. Though I am leaning to the climber’s side.
apogee

climber
Aug 29, 2010 - 07:42pm PT
Tarz:
"Since you get jollies and some of your income from your exploitation of the climbers on El Cap..."

Wow. What a jerk.


"Later."

Don't let the door hit you in the arse!
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Aug 29, 2010 - 07:49pm PT
Tom get "income" for exploiting climbers?


Yeah right, I bought two posters from him at the bridge for $20, which he donated to the
Yosemite Climbing Association.


Please explain EXACTLY how Tom gets personal income from exploiting climbers.
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 29, 2010 - 07:49pm PT
Tarz - did anyone video it? Don't those guys usually tape everything?
Tarz

Mountain climber
Calli
Aug 29, 2010 - 08:04pm PT
I spoke outa line regarding and I apologize for that, but I still think everyone should wait for the facts to come out before rendering opinions or judgement. Tom please accept my apology.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Aug 29, 2010 - 08:28pm PT
fatty,

"Have you no clue about anything in the world???? Of course warnings had been given to many people for several weeks in advance of our "sweep". There was no way of knowing who had previously been there or not, so all nude sunbathers got the bus trip."

 well.. given the fact that this was not mentioned anywhere in your post.. and of course.. only now.. ah, ha... "IT IS!!"

"of course warnings had been given..."

 what a crock. This is, to be sure, the re-writing of history that so many republicans like to do....



It's all in the past now anyway.. you did a great job for your boss, you can be proud of that, even if you now realize that you had no morals, thought, or choice in any matter... Be proud being a tool pays the bills right?

Why else would you need to ask "Have you no clue about anything in the world"

 as if to say.. you are the clued in on everything in the world..


that's the topper-most of the popper-most of self-impressiveness, and self-importance.


you might want to edit some of that in your post so that others don't get the wrong impression as you think I have. Not that you care what anyone says or thinks... but then again.. if you couldn't care less... you may not have posted your response as you did.




fatty.. go on with yourself.
WBraun

climber
Aug 29, 2010 - 09:28pm PT
Hahahaha

Almost 300 posts of pure mental speculations.

Does anyone have any control of their runaway minds?

neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Aug 29, 2010 - 09:29pm PT
hey there say, wbraun.... wow, happy good eve to you....
say hey there to anyone i know, up your way....

(chappy included, of course) .... :)

god bless, nice to hear you this eve...
:)
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Aug 29, 2010 - 09:33pm PT
neeb - didn't I just read that you were gone forever?

Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 19, 2010 - 06:05pm PT

wt?


jstan

climber
Aug 29, 2010 - 10:34pm PT
If juries responded to cases before trial the way we have been responding here, would you personally ever risk going to trial?

Here on ST this group of people has demonstrated a level of behavior far inferior to that which is needed if our nation is to survive.

It has been that bad.
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Aug 29, 2010 - 10:37pm PT
John, I think you didn't get the memo: This just in:

We (the US electorate) Are Ungovernable.

and I don't mean that facetiously.
Roger Brown

climber
Oceano, California
Aug 29, 2010 - 10:37pm PT
The people that know ain't talking. As it should be:-)
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 30, 2010 - 01:25am PT
Just a thought on Basejumping.

I've heard from Rangers that BITD when it was legal for awhile, it went pretty well. Now the gear is better and the sport safer. (still, it's a dangerous sport)

I don't jump but I have to sympathize with those who do. Higher in this thread it was predicted that all kinds of evil would impact the park if jumping was legal. This is plainly not true as Hang Gliding is regulated, legal and happens all the time with little problems.

Base Jumping could be done the same way, with required experience, permits, (maybe a lottery) and even a fee so the NPS could hire a ranger or two to oversee with without busting their budget. They already jump during times when few would notice. Like the gliders fly when most folks aren't out yet.

Let's face it, most serious base jumpers want to launch off El Cap at least once. Why treat it like they are violent criminals? The only reason for the harsh treatment is that it's against the law and there's not many laws being broken in Yosemite and there's lots of guys paid to enforce laws. I drove from Tuolumne to the valley the other day and passed 4 LEO vehicles and that's normal. If it's your job to enforce laws, you do what you can to find lawbreakers (in many cases)

This is yet another case of prohibition creating unnecessary criminals. Of course they shouldn't run from the law, but hey, the punishment should also fit the crime.

Peace

Karl

Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Aug 30, 2010 - 01:49am PT
I remember figuring out who "Badwater" was a while back, and I distinctly remember him carrying
on conversations agreeing with himself. Let me see if I can dig up those gems. In the meantime,
I agree that it's pretty chickenshít to blast Coz while hiding behind a pseudonym. Coward!!

Dave Buchanan
Blakeb

Gym climber
Southern Oregon, behind her
Aug 30, 2010 - 01:49am PT
Agreed, hate the anonymous sh#t talking, wish everyone just posted with their real names
TripL7

Trad climber
san diego
Aug 30, 2010 - 02:22am PT
Patrick Sawyer!

Interesting story from bitd(1976)although somewhat abreviated(short)and you left out the ending(D.Y. & the 4 S's). Good thing that they didn't have tazers back then...that woulda been a really bad "trip"!!
Argon

climber
North Bay, CA
Aug 30, 2010 - 03:13am PT
I agree with Karl's point that there are not that many laws being broken in Yosemite but lots of money being spent on enforcement. I think the pendulum has swung in many parts of the country to the point where we have way too many law enforcers focusing their efforts on petty offenses (traffic, minor drug possession, persecuting Blago) while far less energy is spent on real public safety. On a percentage basis, it seems that they catch far more base jumpers in YNP than they do murderers here in San Francisco and Oakland. Karl passed 4 LEO vehicles on his short trip in the park - while driving from SF to Marin Friday night, I passed 12 cop cars in about 8 miles from 7 different jurisdictions (SF police, Golden Gate Bridge patrol, CHP, Marin sheriff, Sausalito police, Tiburon police plus a GGNRA ranger - I made a quick trip to Rodeo beach in the Headlands.) Personally, I don't feel that the priority of any of these 7 organizations is to protect and serve me, far from it - yet I'm forced to contribute to their bloated and redundant staffs and infrastructure and their unsustainable pension and benefit programs. The state is choking on its public sector obligations - we should have a massive reduction in spending for enforcement in this petty offense area. Yeah, I know that traffic stops and DUI checkpoints snag a lot of real criminals and other undesirables - but it seems that their primary purpose is to annoy the taxpaying public and generate revenue for gov't coffers. It's a shame that Yosemite is over-LEO'ed. Let's say we did cut back enforcement and the next guy to base jump El Cap had, say, a 50% lower chance of being tasered, then I'm OK with it. I'll still visit the park. And their budget might look a little better. And I would still be highly unlikely to base jump - but I might risk taking my dog off lease in Tuolumne.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Aug 30, 2010 - 03:21am PT
It's a business. like anything else. Also, why a lot of climbers now operate outside of parks...
Papillon Rendre

climber
Aug 30, 2010 - 03:49am PT
Well, Bad Water, I must be incredibly ignorant because I got Coz's point.

Sounds to me that he is saying due to the extreme measures of dragnet LEO's, for offenses that are not too severe, their actions can cause some severe reactions, possibly resulting in death.

Perhaps the hunter should evaluate the severity of the crime, more carefully, before they use extreme measures for apprehending the non-violent violators. (not saying this pertains to this specific incident)

I can understand their behavior if the offender was a violent criminal, but for base jumping? Maybe they should sachez down to the bridge, and really have some good fun. A lot of criminals down there and the sign clearly says "no jumping".



neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Aug 30, 2010 - 06:55am PT
hey there jingy say.... as to your quote:

neeb - didn't I just read that you were gone forever?

Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 19, 2010 - 06:05pm PT

oh my.... i would not have said "forever"... it is too precise :O ....
BUT-->i truly DID have a great fear though, that my poor ol' computer or modem was "near done for" and that it would be a long hard haul, til i could ever make it back here again... :(

but three cheers, to the grace of god, i found the proper trail, and my trouble was due to:
netzero having a notably newer system than i knew of----so new, it knew not my computer's nomenclator that it cators to calling it's sign-on code, naturally it was then a nomad, newly unknown to them (though in fact, it nicely HAD known it,until now)... well none the known-less, i AM BACK.... :)

oh my---you can go read up on the whole mess (on that post's newer info), and the wonderful good news that helped me...

wow, HOPE all is well with you jingy, and that the week will be special and very nice for you...

god bless...

*back to ammon mcneely post now...
:)

edit: ooops, forgot... i am very sorry if i caused some confusion there, to you jingy....

once again, computer is okay now...
god blesss...
:)
that old guy

Trad climber
CA
Aug 30, 2010 - 08:05am PT
Back in the day, I got pretty harassed in the Tuolumne parking lot for sorting my gear alongside my vehicle. Just a weekend climber trying to get a little natural high. Toe the line in the Park, that's all I can say, esp. speed limits. I did get hit head-on on tioga pass rd. in the middle of the night, they did give the other guy a ticket, & helped me out considerably. That guy wasn't in a cop car, though, just a Ranger.
sethsquatch76

Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
Aug 30, 2010 - 08:51am PT
ATTENTION ALL OUT LAWS AND PIRATES:

YOSEMITE IS NOT SAFE FOR YOU, ABANDON THE DITCH, EJECT, ESCAPE, THE MAN HAS YOUR NUMBER, ITS NOT IF YOU WILL GET BUSTED, BUT WHEN...... THE FORBIDDEN FRUIT WAS EATEN A LONG TIME AGO....... LET THE VALLEY GO AND MOVE ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BLM and Forest service land is much more suited to the outlaw life style. I have not climbed in the valley in 6 years, cant get comfortable there.





justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Aug 30, 2010 - 09:45am PT
Karl Baba: It's my observation that there is a fundamental difference between the culture and attitudes of hang-gliders vs BASE jumpers. Gliders tend to follow rules. A segment of BASE jumpers prefer not to.

I spent all day climbing yesterday with the first person to ever get arrested for BASE jumping off El Cap. We discussed this case of course. We also discussed the brief legalization and his input on why it was de-legalized in short order. A large percentage of the BASE jumpers just refused to follow even simple rules like having to jump before a certain time in the morning, as well as a few other reasonable guidelines. Chaos ensued. People were jumping off anything they wanted at any time of the day without a permit, so the privilege was taken away. They basically blew their opportunity. Should this tried again? I don't know.

Bullwinkle

Boulder climber
Aug 30, 2010 - 10:31am PT
if you stayed away, one less tool. . .
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 30, 2010 - 10:42am PT
Karl Baba: It's my observation that there is a fundamental difference between the culture and attitudes of hang-gliders vs BASE jumpers. Gliders tend to follow rules. A segment of BASE jumpers prefer not to.

Probably some truth in that, but the gliders have more legal places to fly and I imagine it would be harder to glide away from the rule enforcers than fly away in a few seconds and disappear. I hear the jumpers did abuse their privileges.

It's probably worth noting that in the minds of the NPS, Backpackers tend to follow the rules while some climbers prefer not to. This was the old mindset anyway. Now climbers and NPS have got more cooperative, work together on access issues, and don't play as many games of hide as seek. That could happen with the jumpers as well as their sport matures and they want access.

Peace

Karl
pc

climber
Aug 30, 2010 - 10:49am PT
Bullwinkle, You're truly one sour mofo.

Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Tahoe City/Talmont , CA
Aug 30, 2010 - 12:08pm PT
Agreed, hate the anonymous sh#t talking, wish everyone just posted with their real names

YES!
And please start with yourself!
Scared Silly

Trad climber
UT
Aug 30, 2010 - 12:32pm PT
At the New there is Bridge Day where it is legal to jump from the bridge. It is a huge boom for the area.

http://www.officialbridgeday.com/

Perhaps there needs to be a El Cap jump day. Once a year anyone who wants to jump can jump. The rest of the year - off limits.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 30, 2010 - 12:46pm PT
I was thinking the same thing as SS.

Jump Day.





Can a squirrel suit be made taser-resistant?
Let the games begin,..
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 30, 2010 - 12:51pm PT
So if they have one day a year what are they going to do with all the body
bags the rest of the year? And what happens if on the annointed day the
RangerJumpMaster decides the winds aren't right or there aren't enough
Turoids clogging the meadow - a riot on top of El Cap?
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Aug 30, 2010 - 01:13pm PT
'Now what could have mean old Ammon done to deserve this," Well phrased, Coz.

Could he have been tased to prevent, a jump?

I like banded, too. Makes me think of that guy in Snow Crash who had "poor impulse control" tatooed across his forehead.


"Excuse me, hate to interupt, but it's against the law to jump off this bridge...
Say Uncle and we'll take you to the mental health Zoo" Jello Biafra,
-maybe he should conduct sensitivity training seminars for LEO's?
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Aug 30, 2010 - 01:18pm PT
It doesn't take a genius to understand that after jumping off a 3000' cliff and landing, a person is going to AMPED on adrenaline and thus primed for a fight or flight response.

Any LEO policy that ignores that, and a "detain by any means necessary" policy on apprehending a base jumper does ignore that fact, is creating more problems than it's solving.

And you tool apologist claiming that tazers are safe need to do some elementary research.

From Amnesty:
"Since June 2001, more than 351 individuals in the United States have died after being shocked by police Tasers. Most of those individuals were not carrying a weapon."
bmacd

climber
Relic Hominid
Aug 30, 2010 - 01:21pm PT
monetize el cap base jumping with a permit system and schedule jumps for the tourons to gawk at
pc

climber
Aug 30, 2010 - 01:26pm PT
Would it still be against the law if the chute was just a safety device in case a climber fell off El Cap? 'Officer, I was just topping out when I greased off...'

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 30, 2010 - 01:30pm PT
pc, your idea wrongly assumes that rangers employ logic.

In Valley of Fire state park climbing is not prohibited however, in the interest of safety, one is not permitted to climb with a rope.

I kid you not.
elcap-pics

Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
Aug 30, 2010 - 01:39pm PT
I have come out against LEGALIZING base jumping in the park. I of course thought about the permit system... knowing what I know about base jumpers they will jump any time they damn well please. You know it is true. If they allowed jumping one weekend a year do you honestly think that these people would abide by that!! What a joke! Why wait for one or two days a year, get a jump lottery ticket and then wait in line to jump when you can do it for free any time you want? Not going to happen.

So I think it should be kept illegal... that way the people who do it are going to figure a way out to do it without being seen or getting caught, as it has been done for years. Yes yes from time to time someone will screw up and get caught... that is tough luck for them but the vast majority of jumpers I am friends with to it on a regular basis and don't get caught. I would venture a GUESS that less than one jump in 2500 gets caught... not bad odds.

The trick is to be so experienced and organized that you dont get caught. That way the hacks and shouldn't be there types either don't try it or get caught. With legalization all kinds of regulations and problems will arise!

KEEP BASE JUMPING ALIVE AND WELL .... DON'T LEGALIZE IT!
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 30, 2010 - 01:42pm PT
uh,... el cap pics


what would happen if somebody posted that but substituted the term climbing for base jumping?
corniss chopper

Mountain climber
san jose, ca
Aug 30, 2010 - 01:43pm PT
Its all relative. The higher the take off point the longer the fun lasts.
marv

Mountain climber
Bay Area
Aug 30, 2010 - 02:03pm PT
I like the keep-it-illegal argument mentioned above. Keeps enough of the riffraff away but doesn't deter the committed/having-their-shit together (who apparently don't get caught except improbably).

Dylan: "To live outside the law you must be honest." Word.
elcap-pics

Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
Aug 30, 2010 - 02:06pm PT
Climbing, at this time, doesn't have the inherent problems that base jumping is associated with. Climbers don't generally have to be rescued from the top of tall trees, climbers don't generally land in front of cars on the road. Climbers don't generally land on top of your car. Climbers don't generally land in the river. Climbers don't break their legs at the end of a climb as jumpers sometimes, but rarely, do. Climbers don't generally dominate the vistas people who have come to see so called "nature" will be seeing.

As far as danger goes... although base jumping is PROBABLY more dangerous I don't think danger is a valid reason to ban it as people get killed all the time doing less dangerous things. I am mostly speaking of jumping ElCap with all its inherent problems.

I would be in favor of allowing jumping off the Dome as there is pretty much no chance of landing in car travelled roads or in areas that are full of tourons. Rivers and trees are still a problem however, but I feel certain the park service would not want to have to fetch all the screw ups from Dome jumps as the terrain is very difficult and the jump does not have a huge meadow to land in... at least it seems manageable while jumping ElCap seems to be almost unmanageable.

Certainly there is no easy solution to this matter. If there was it would have been resolved a long time ago... well ...I suppose it has been resolved... it is illegal. That is the easiest thing for the park service to do as it eliminates all the rescue problems entirely! The road to legalization will be a hard one as it will require an already stressed NPS to assume even more responsibility and cost.

I still think that far more base jumpers will get to jump ElCap, though illegally, than if some system, which probably will bring its share of complaints, is instigated.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 30, 2010 - 02:06pm PT
Bridge Day seems to work pretty good. But as I posted earlier, it ain't happening in a National Park. They don't need the tourist dollars.

My friend had a great quote: "The kind of people who want to be cops, should not be cops!" But of course it's been mentioned here numerous times, most rangers are cool and helpful. It's the power trippers who shouldn't be in that line of work who cause problems. The people drawn to law enforcement because they want to control people, not help people. And unfortuneatly there's also a culture of protecting your fellow officer even when THEY break the law.
marv

Mountain climber
Bay Area
Aug 30, 2010 - 02:10pm PT
"You know the score. If you're not a cop, you're little people."
elcap-pics

Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
Aug 30, 2010 - 02:11pm PT
Bridge Day is ONE DAY... do you really think that one day is all that is needed to stop all other jumping in Yosemite for the rest of the year? Nope... don't think so Bro!
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 30, 2010 - 02:20pm PT
All a legal jump day(s) would do is to allow those who don't want to break the law a chance to do it legally. It probably wouldn't make a dent in illegal jumping.

I've done enough legal and illegal stuff to know that I'd rather have the plenty of time and low stress situation that comes with doing it legally than to have to run and hide AND plan my jump safely.

But like I said it's not happening anyway. Too much hassle, no benefit for those in charge.

The biggest thing the park service looks at is the impact on other visitors. Millions of tourists don't want to see colorful chutes in their vacation pics. They don't want to hear the 'sonic booms' of slider down openings.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 30, 2010 - 02:26pm PT
Fattrad, you'd think Rudy would at least be able to control his SON!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dewdkhCotuc
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 30, 2010 - 02:40pm PT
Millions of tourists don't want to see colorful chutes in their vacation pics. They don't want to hear the 'sonic booms' of slider down openings.

Not certain that I agree with that sentiment. My parents got a kick out of seeing the hanggliders. But then at 80 years old my mom wanted to try it. She did her first white water trip at 78.

We have been coming to the park since I was 4 years old. We have floated the river, canoed the lakes, camped, swam, hiked and just generally enjoyed the park for years. The things that bothered us the most were rude people, litter, and noise. Sometimes the crowds bothered us, but we knew how to escape them, just hike a mile. ( at least on most trails. The falls trails are a whole nother ballgame )
rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
Aug 30, 2010 - 02:58pm PT
Speaking of taser incidents, there was a doosy in the midwest about a year ago. The cops got a report of a potential suicide and responded. They found a man in his front yard had doused himself with gasoline and was threating to set himself on fire.

So, they tased him.

Guess what happened...
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Aug 30, 2010 - 03:04pm PT
Sorry Peeping Tom, but this is beyond ridiculous:

"Climbers don't generally have to be rescued from the top of tall trees, climbers don't generally land in front of cars on the road. Climbers don't generally land on top of your car. Climbers don't generally land in the river. Climbers don't break their legs at the end of a climb as jumpers sometimes, but rarely, do. Climbers don't generally dominate the vistas people who have come to see so called "nature" will be seeing.:

And NEITHER DO BASE JUMPERS, you disingenuous clown. Out of the probably 5,000 jumps done in the last decade in the valley, how many have included ANY of the above BS? Talk about your over generalization and simplistic horsesh#t...geez.

Dominate the vistas? A base jumper is visible for what...25 seconds from launch to chute gathered and gone? Whereas there are bright ass red and yellow portaledges on El Cap for weeks at a time. Get a clue.

Oh, but maybe you mean touristy lookout vistas? Funny, I've NEVER seen a tourist within miles of the Mescalito launch.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
Aug 30, 2010 - 03:06pm PT
Base jumpers scared the crap out of me on El Cap (I used a tube), but nobody promised me a rose garden.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 30, 2010 - 03:21pm PT
Holy crap rif, talk about suicide by cop.

Maybe the cop should say he reached for the wrong holster,..









I wonder what our paternalistic culture that seeks to protect people from themselves will come up with if jumping becomes more popular, giant nets strung along just below the rim?
rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
Aug 30, 2010 - 03:27pm PT
Yeah, you gotta wonder what the cop was thinking.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Aug 30, 2010 - 03:31pm PT
thinking?
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Aug 30, 2010 - 03:43pm PT
No Shít!

Wow...
elcap-pics

Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
Aug 30, 2010 - 03:50pm PT
Well Elcapinyoazz... you are right in that there have been few incidents of people in trees or in front of cars in yosemite... could that be because it is illegal and only a select few jumpers with a lot of experience go off Elcap? Imagaine for a moment, that jumping becomes legal... seems to me there will be many more jumpers going off than before and certainly the ranks of the experienced will be thinned by those of less experience. Well... my base jumping friends will do just fine for the most part, but the new multitudes may not fare so well. Get the idea.... many less experienced jumpers will, most likely, lead to landings in bad places. I saw one of the most experienced jumpers in the world land in the river one day at noon right in front of me... so is it not possible that the less experienced will not do so well and will need someone to fetch them up?

We differ on this topic, obviously, but your rudeness to me is uncalled for.. I have not insulted you in any way, because of your opinion, and I don't even know who you are as you don't identify yourself.... all I have done is post my opinion in a reasoned and rational manner... your name calling diminishes you man.... not me.
TKingsbury

Trad climber
MT
Aug 30, 2010 - 03:57pm PT
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 30, 2010 - 04:15pm PT
Lodi ain't known for it's safety. My wife got a gift certificate for a Tandem there and I sold it and paid the difference for her to go to Davis.

My brothers first time there he asked about the landing and they just said "you'll figure it out" he almost landed on the freeway and came in UNDER the power lines.

Sure is fun to watch them when we're blasting down 99 though!
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 30, 2010 - 04:39pm PT
From: http://www.terragalleria.com/mountain/info/yosemite/base.html

Back to El Cap, in 1980 the park experimented with allowing skydiving. Some people who wanted to legalize and promote jumping off of EL Cap convinced the USPA to establish legal jumping with the NPS. Reasonable guidlines were set up like permits, liscense requirements, time of jumping, probably similar to what is happening now with hanggliding. This lasted about 2 or 3 months. There were a lot of problems such as people leaving trash and damaging the environment and not following the requirments.In general many people were not behaving responsibly. There were a few rescues and minor landing injuries but no fatalities of major injuries. While all this was happening 'the as#@&%es' decided that they didn't want to hike all the way to El Cap so they drove there truck up an old logging road as far as they could. This must have been from Big Oak Flat. The Park may have arrested or cited them, but the USPA thought It would help our image if they took action against them and expelled the people involved. Then these people sued the USPA claiming they had no business regualating base jumping. The USPA decided to drop the whole thing. The NPS outlawed base jumping in national parks. Skydivers and base jumpers did not make a very good impression with the NPS and base jumpers alienated the USPA. Now back to the present. In 1993 a base jumping organization tried to convince the park to allow base jumping and was not succesful. I think that it would take an organization such as the USPA to convince the NPS to allow base jumping. There is little chance of this happening because of the past incident in yosemite and the liability it would place on the USPA.

Isn't it wonderful when a few asshats ruin things for everyone?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 30, 2010 - 04:43pm PT
Thats the way it always goes fet.


If rock climbing hadn't been invented until the '80s it wouldn't be allowed in the parks either.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 30, 2010 - 04:44pm PT
Defineatly Ron. Thanks goodness for "grandfathered in".
pc

climber
Aug 30, 2010 - 05:20pm PT
That's a great story Darth. thx.

edit. Huh. What story?
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
Aug 30, 2010 - 05:59pm PT
Funny.

All this talk of landing in trees, parachuting in national parks etc...

Once when I was a smokejumper we got called to jump a fire in Lassen NP. The spotter chose a jump spot. Right next to it was a massive dead snag with huge dead arms. Obviously to be avoided at all costs. Out goes my buddy Jeff. It looked like the snag put some sort of suction beam on him. He steered directly into the thing and ended up hanging about 100 feet in the air from some dead limbs. Yikes! He rapped out (one carries 3/4 inch webbing for those circumstances) and walked away from it all.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 30, 2010 - 06:16pm PT
People who rap on 3/4" webbing are crazy.
They should be tased on the spot for their own safety.
elcap-pics

Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
Aug 30, 2010 - 06:25pm PT
After reading most of these posts... the more rational ones, not the name calling, I want to kick your ass ones, I have revised my opinion... While the Yeas have some good points, I am personally not convinced that it is a good idea, but perhaps, there could be a 6 month trial period where it is legalized, with some regulation. Then we could really see if the Nays or the Yeas prove to be correct. After 6 months it would reviewed and amended as necessary and be finalized. I don't really think the NPS will go for such an idea but it would be something to strive for, and might be considered if approached by the right people, in the right way.

From an earlier post... there is a very strong wind blowing from west to east in the valley for most of the spring and part of the summer. The "famous jumper" was unable to fly into it to make the meadow, not to mention even making the bridge. As soon as he opened he was blown hard to the east and lucky to land in the river and not the trees. He was uninjured and got out on his own... wish I could remember that guys name.......short guy, maybe Spanish....mmmmmm...or that other guy who opened late and hit at the base of the wall breaking his ankle... damn... who was that guy??.. he is a really good one too .... oh well... old age you know... weak mind... memory shot to hell...
Acer

Big Wall climber
AZ
Aug 31, 2010 - 04:08am PT
I think NPS did that trial period awhile back. We know where the rules are today.

My memory isn't perfect.

Continued BASE jumping especially with incidents will not help the cause.

Hueco tanks climbing has had a tough Access history.

Just an example of recreation where admin wanted it on way and rec people did it another. Almost total lock out for climbing. Still quit restricted.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 31, 2010 - 10:45am PT
When you outlaw jumping only outlaws will jump.

This shouldn't have been a stunning discovery for even a wannabe pirate.



(but I still suspect that it was a sporting hunt)
klk

Trad climber
cali
Aug 31, 2010 - 11:44am PT
If rock climbing hadn't been invented until the '80s it wouldn't be allowed in the parks either.


Ron's probably being slightly sarcastic, but he's probably correct.

It took decades of steady, hard work by the Sierra Club (at a time when the SC had a lot of pull and connections) to get the NPS to accept climbing in the Park. Lots of points where it could've gone south. Now, it's become an acknowledged historical-cultural practice, so it'd be really difficult for NPS to ban it completely.

When Jay Taylor's new book comes out this fall, you'll be able to see how close we came to having no climbing in the park. And we can all more easily imagine a future in which climbing is much more heavily regulated that it is today.


Scared Silly

Trad climber
UT
Aug 31, 2010 - 11:55am PT
I wonder if the logic of using a taser is/was following:

Ordered to stop, the guy is running - failure to follow a lawful order.

Giving chase, the guy ain't going to stop so I am going to have to tackle him. Still may not cooperate once on the ground and I have no back up (now up to resisting arrest). We both could get injured or worse (tack on using force against a LEO).

Option - use the taser. Perp is taken down and incapacitated. Problem solved.

To be honest I can completely understand the logic. Where the problem comes in is at what level of crime should a taser be used? I am sure some would say anytime you run, you put yourself in a position to be zapped.

Scared Silly

Trad climber
UT
Aug 31, 2010 - 12:01pm PT
If rock climbing hadn't been invented until the '80s it wouldn't be allowed in the parks either.


Ron's probably being slightly sarcastic, but he's probably correct.


Actually he is not being sarcastic. And I am pretty sure where Ron got that from was from a comment from a NPS Ranger from Yosemite who was asked during the Mountain Management Workshop in 1991 here in Salt Lake City "If rock climbing was a new sport would it be allowed in the Parks?" He said no it probably would not be.

Unfortunately, I can not remember who it was who said it as I would have to look through the bowels of my organizing notes (the workshop was a cooperative effort between the Access Fund and the Forest Service). That said I believe it was Armando Menocal who asked the question.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 31, 2010 - 12:49pm PT
If you want to read about gross misuse of tasers, the Robert Dziekanski incident at Vancouver airport in October 2007 is a graphic example - from Canada.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Dzieka%C5%84ski_Taser_incident

The resulting judicial enquiry came to the conclusion that Tasers were oversold, much less safe than claimed by the manufacturer, and misused - to put it politely.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 31, 2010 - 01:29pm PT
Does Lobo carry a toy one?
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 31, 2010 - 01:44pm PT
Choice Phaser:


One for Locker
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Aug 31, 2010 - 02:18pm PT

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/death-of-teen-on-bike-shows-risks-of-expanded-use-of-tasers/1112106

"Late one night in October, a 17-year-old on a bike was chased by a police officer in a cruiser. When the boy refused to stop, the officer aimed his Taser out the driver's window and fired. The boy fell off the bike and the cruiser ran over him, killing him.

...
"Number 55 occurred in Bradenton one week before Victor's death. Police tried to stop him because he didn't have a light on his bicycle. When he ran, police hit him with a Taser. He died within 35 minutes."

Four days later, police in Panama City fired a Taser "at least twice" at a man who tried to conceal cocaine by swallowing it. He went into cardiac arrest and died."


"There is no question that Tasers frequently save lives by offering law enforcement officers a nonlethal means of stopping people who present a threat to the officers, the public or themselves. But as the four fatal cases from 2009 show, Tasers are also being used to subdue people who appear to pose no threat.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 31, 2010 - 02:40pm PT
Yeah.
The Chris Rock video is funny, but we need better paid and more professionally behaving police officers.

Bottom line; no threat, no darts. Cops need to stay in shape, and be held to a higher standard of behavior than the untrained civilian.


But Ammon may have been a special case if the rangers actually had Ted Nugent's improperly filled out hunting tag,..
Gregg Olson

Boulder climber
Moorpark, Ca
Aug 31, 2010 - 02:42pm PT
Ok... let me see if I have this "FatRad". You are saying they are not lethal unless there are pre-existing cardiac conditions or they are under the influence of drugs. How is the person on the delivering end supposed to know any of this ? How can you not see the fact that if there are more then one way to kill someone with a taser by accident or not means they are lethal ?? Wow.. The Gop convention in your name says it all.
Anyone that thinks an illegal base jump and an attempted run from "the Law" = even the smallest chance of death needs to check there moral compass. ( Im not saying you do FatRad, Im just saying).
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 31, 2010 - 02:48pm PT
Tasers have killed people with no medical conditions and not on drugs many times. They are less-lethal, not non-lethal.

They are better than a shot with a bullet, but since they can kill they shold be used as a last resort. Which is often not the case.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Aug 31, 2010 - 02:49pm PT
If you PUSHED a man of a ledge and he fell to his death, it would be called murder. If you tase him and he falls and dies, is that any different?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/25/nyregion/25tased.html
The Alpine

Big Wall climber
Aug 31, 2010 - 02:51pm PT
Bullets are only lethal if they hit you in certain spots...
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Aug 31, 2010 - 02:54pm PT
Beyond comical that the conservatives fall all over each other in their rush to line up behind authoritarianism, all the while ranting about liberty and tyranny, without the slightest sense of irony.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Aug 31, 2010 - 03:02pm PT
Fatty, of course they do (carry them)

I'm with DMT on this; same consequnces as using a gun. Be glad they don't give cops throwing knves.....
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 31, 2010 - 03:03pm PT
Beyond comical that the conservatives fall all over each other in their rush to line up behind authoritarianism, all the while ranting about liberty and tyranny, without the slightest sense of irony.

Great post.

Liberty- it's not about civil rights, it's about not paying taxes!!
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Aug 31, 2010 - 03:05pm PT
Better start tazing all the jaywalkers...after all, by nature they're fleeing the scene of the crime.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 31, 2010 - 03:16pm PT
I wish I could buy tazing tags for litterbugs, especially people that toss cigarette butts. There should be a dedicated switch for them that gives a few extra jolts.
And we should be able to wear camo and lure them in with the smell of bacon.
Gregg Olson

Boulder climber
Moorpark, Ca
Aug 31, 2010 - 04:12pm PT
FatRad,
Just for the record. Within seconds after I had put in my first post above that included the line " you must be a good christian also " I decided to cut that bit out thinking that perhaps a new thread would be in order on that one. Not because I did not want to insult you. What are doing ?... hovering over this crap !! LOL. Oh and for the record it has been my personal experience that "some" practitioners of "most" kinds of "organized" religions are narrow minded self righteous, hypocritical, none thinking people that cant see the forest through the trees and can stand fast on a point of view, no matter how absurd it might be. Most Republicans have the same issue. Most republicans are "good christians" and some of your posts exhibit that mentality so I made the guess that you were a "good christian". But alas... You are a good Jewish man.... and to think that I thought you were the "Evil One".
Thanks for posting the Chris Rock link though... That was classic !!
Gregg Olson

Boulder climber
Moorpark, Ca
Aug 31, 2010 - 04:21pm PT
Ok.. but your still a Republican...I rest my case.
BASE

Big Wall climber
Cali
Aug 31, 2010 - 04:24pm PT
There IS video and witnesses of this account regarding the conduct and interaction with the rangers. The truth will come out in court. The New York Times will be writing an article about this situation and other past incidences of abuse from Yosemite rangers.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 31, 2010 - 04:31pm PT
I hope that's the case, but with a name of just BASE and no BASE number I'll take that with a grain of salt.
atchafalaya

climber
Babylon
Aug 31, 2010 - 04:32pm PT
404 posts and not a single fact offered as to what happened. We don't have Ammon's version, or the officers. Why guess?

Because there are no facts, it is impossible to tell if the officers use of force was reasonable, or if the use of the taser was excessive force.

Its really that simple.

If Ammon was tasered just for BASE jumping, the use of force is excessive. If he resisted arrest the Taser use would be lawful to gain compliance, and overcome resistance.

Surely there is video of the incident. Anyone have any facts?

MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Aug 31, 2010 - 04:33pm PT
So when is the trial and are we all going to Fresno to watch?

Don't know if the Fed Court in Yose can handle this one.

Get our curiosity fix.

MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Aug 31, 2010 - 04:34pm PT
It is obvious that Ammon did a crime and will now have to do the time.

Wonder if he will MAN up??
MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Aug 31, 2010 - 04:35pm PT
Now the question is did the ranger do something wrong?

Will he take his punishment and MAN up?
MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Aug 31, 2010 - 04:37pm PT
These will be separate cases.

One will not be dropped because of the other.

They will both have to face the music.

90% of more cases are handled without a trial or a big to do.

I bet that this one will not be as big as some of you want it to and we will never find out the WHOLE story.
Brunosafari

Boulder climber
OR
Aug 31, 2010 - 04:38pm PT
"Facts" are :


LEO propositions Ammon. Ammon says not interested in Smokey The Bear Style. ZAP!
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 31, 2010 - 04:40pm PT
I have no information on the event and won't comment. I will say that the mentality that I'll do something that is illegal because it should be legal may not be the best way to change policy, especially with the NPS.
atchafalaya

climber
Babylon
Aug 31, 2010 - 04:45pm PT
DMT, agreed, running away is not cause to be "shot", but under current federal and state law, it is a cause to be tasered. Thats cause use of a taser is not considered a use of deadly force. (Don't blame me, I am not a federal judge).

Facts I want to know:
Did the officer warn Ammon prior to the use of the taser that it would be used if he did not comply with officers commands?
Was there a struggle to get him cuffed?

I have never seen a case where the suspect was silently running away, and officers, with no warnings, used a taser to stop him from running.

The tough part of Ammon's case, if he chooses to go all the way with it, is that he has to clear himself of the criminal charges, prior to a court hearing the excesive force part. If he is convicted of resisting arrest, the conviction bars him from claiming excessive force. He could plead to the BASE jumping charge and still persue the civil rights violation, but a US attorney would have to offer that deal, which is unlikely if they know he wants to pursue a civil action.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 31, 2010 - 04:49pm PT
PitonRon: I wish I could buy tazing tags for litterbugs, especially people that toss cigarette butts.
Second that - and I would add graffiti painters and other such scum to the list. And would happily taser them myself.

There's a saying amongst criminals: Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.
MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Aug 31, 2010 - 04:53pm PT
Exactly

DMT, agreed, running away is not cause to be "shot", but under current federal and state law, it is a cause to be tasered. Thats cause use of a taser is not considered a use of deadly force. (Don't blame me, I am not a federal judge).

Facts I want to know:
Did the officer warn Ammon prior to the use of the taser that it would be used if he did not comply with officers commands?
Was there a struggle to get him cuffed?

I have never seen a case where the suspect was silently running away, and officers, with no warnings, used a taser to stop him from running.

The tough part of Ammon's case, if he chooses to go all the way with it, is that he has to clear himself of the criminal charges, prior to a court hearing the excesive force part. If he is convicted of resisting arrest, the conviction bars him from claiming excessive force. He could plead to the BASE jumping charge and still persue the civil rights violation, but a US attorney would have to offer that deal, which is unlikely if they know he wants to pursue a civil action.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 31, 2010 - 04:57pm PT
Anders,
wasn't it actually said by the TV character, Baretta, played by Robert Blake, who ironically didn't do the time?
jstan

climber
Aug 31, 2010 - 05:00pm PT
"

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Come on in boys, the water's fine!

Aug 31, 2010 - 01:34pm PT
Atch, imo running away in and of itself is not sufficient cause to be shot. I don't even agree its resisting arrest.

Let the rangers RUN!

DMT"

end quote

And all of this based on no information.

What's going on with you Dingus?

This is not like you.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 31, 2010 - 05:06pm PT
Running away from a law enforcement officer is not resisting arrest like running away from a Tiger is not an action taken to avoid being eaten.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 31, 2010 - 05:13pm PT
Hey John, I don't think DMT was making a case about Ammon's situation. I think he was making a case about generalities, such as when to use a taser, and what constitutes resisting arrest.

I think that Tasers should be used more judiciously, and a part of me thinks that running away is not really resisting arrest, but another part agrees that it is.

The part of me that thinks that running away from officers shouldn't be considered resisting arrest, is the part that has been tooled. Not as some think, because I was breaking any law, but instead simply because I worked in the park for the concession, and some rangers had a hard on for us. I was pulled over for doing 3 miles over the speed limit on a down hill. My speedometer said I was hitting the speed limit exactly. I am a very straight laced person, who rarely breaks any law except maybe jaywalking in the city, and speeding, plus the occasional california stop, but the ranger said he smelled marijauna and proceeded to strip search my car. He was on a power trip. I didn't do drugs. At that time I didn't even hardly drink. Maybe a beer or two on the weekends, but never while driving. That part of me that has been abused more then once by those on power trips is the part that thinks it shouldn't be considered resisting arrest when one runs, because that gives the arresting officer even more power.

But there is a part of me that understands that our representatives of the law need some authority. I just don't know where the balance point is. I

In regards to tasers, I definitely think that someone fleeing from a non violent crime, does not warrant being tased.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 31, 2010 - 05:13pm PT
I have never seen a case where the suspect was silently running away, and officers, with no warnings, used a taser to stop him from running.

You need to read more then.

Because of this thread I read up on Tasers. Some scary incidents. Zapping kids. Zapping for over a minute and the person died. Zapping from multiple tasers at one time and the person died. Etc.

Like I said "LESS LETHAL". I think they should be treated like PR 24 (batons) a weapon, not the same class as a firearm, but one certainly capable of causing death.

And of course we're all commenting without the facts. This is the INTERNET! It's all 'mental speculation' as Werner would say.
jstan

climber
Aug 31, 2010 - 05:23pm PT
Dingus:

Don't need to watch videos. I think it was here in SoCal a prostate person was tasered several
times and died. Tasers have been extensively marketted to LE and even here in SB, as quiet a
place as we are, has bought tasers.

I think the use of tasers needs to be revisited at the Federal level and standards for LEO training
developed. That and the medical risks should all have been developed before introduction.
Before.

Period.

They were not.

Having said that the circumstances surrounding Ammons arrest are unknown. Until those
circumstances are known any objections we have to tasers as a LE modality need to be discussed
entirely unrelated to Ammon's arrest.

Period.

You have a long history of thoughtful discussion here. My props.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 31, 2010 - 05:35pm PT
Tasering would not pass FDA standards for a new medical treatment, which is what it amounts to. (Electroshock...) The company that makes them claims that those who've died as a result of taser misuse - generally young, healthy, males - mostly did so because they were in a state of "excited delirium". A state not otherwise known to medical science. They were quite upset when the judicial enquiry here in effect said that tasers were much more dangerous than advertised, and should be used with considerably greater caution.

The law of arrest is quite complex, not forgetting that the word comes from the French "arretez", which means "stop". Strictly speaking, a policeman has to identify himself as such, tell a person to stop, and (probably) physically restrain the person. The minimum restraint being a symbolic hand on the shoulder. One defence is to claim that you didn't know that the person was a policeman, or that he didn't say he was arresting you. Judges and juries tend to believe the police more than the accused. The "I didn't know" defence may not have a lot of credibility if you at any point were in earshot or eyesight, and all you did was run like hell. Particularly given the context.

"Don't do the crime if you can't do the time" probably goes back to the very first criminals, in Babylon or Egypt.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 31, 2010 - 05:41pm PT
Concept, yes.

Rhyming in english, no.



Another Blake irony; he vaunted to fame as a murderer in In Cold Blood.
The famous scene of remorse with the "crying light" was a lucky accident according to Oscar winning cinematographer Conrad Hall.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 31, 2010 - 05:46pm PT
Let's just go back to the old standby.

A 12ga with an ounce of coarse rock salt.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Aug 31, 2010 - 05:47pm PT
I bet that, whatever happened, this thing gets dropped quietly.
Then the real fun begins...
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
Aug 31, 2010 - 05:49pm PT
since when has failing to comply with a direct order from a LEO not resisting arrest, if he has declared that you are being placed under arrest?

Not sure the case law is settled on that point, but I'm fairly certain the DA would say that running away is resisting if you know or have reason to know you are being placed under arrest.



*no comment implied on Ammon's case.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 31, 2010 - 05:50pm PT
Fatty,
you don't have to throw water on the campfire. We're having way too much fun just wildly speculating.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Aug 31, 2010 - 05:59pm PT
Really, facts will only get in our way...
He deserved it though, if he really was jumping while listening to John Denver and Reading Atlas shrugged, I'da shot him myself, anyone would....
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 31, 2010 - 06:02pm PT
if he really was jumping while listening to John Denver and Reading Atlas shrugged, I'da shot him myself, anyone would....

hahaha. I would have stood by to help you reload. that is "if" you missed.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 31, 2010 - 06:05pm PT
Excited Delerium. Good name for an album.
pc

climber
Aug 31, 2010 - 06:37pm PT
Finally I found some video footage of the arrest.

http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7041263



Blakeb

Gym climber
Southern Oregon, behind her
Aug 31, 2010 - 06:42pm PT
blake irony? im sure this is about someone else important and this has gone right over my head.

So, fatty, pig lover, u know everything, so hypothetically, what if someone is running away, ie.. resisting arrest and has a backpack or a boulder pad on, so a tazer shot to the torso is not feasible, if the officer decided to shoot at your neck and head since the abdomen was covered, are they then doing something illegal??

keep speculating
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 31, 2010 - 06:45pm PT
How "aimable" (not amiable...) are tasers, and what is their range? I believe that the police are taught to shoot for the torso if they shoot at all, given that they're using handguns (not very accurate at any distance), and that if they use a gun, they're shooting to kill. It would be consistent to also train them to shoot for the torso with a taser.
JesseM

Social climber
Yosemite
Aug 31, 2010 - 06:49pm PT
For US Court federal documents you can use www.pacer.gov (public access to court electronic records).

A criminal complaint was filed by the NPS for this case that outlines the facts and legal reasons for the charges against Ammon. This is a public document.

I can't/won't get involved on this forum as far as the reasons for the arrest and tasing of Ammon, the charges he faces, or the legalization of base jumping.

The case will go through the legal process, and a Federal Judge will review evidence and arguments including legal reasoning set forth by opposing parties or litigants to come to a decision which determines rights and obligations between the parties involved.

There will be a use of force review panel for the incident (as always).

MTucker posted the Use of Force Continuum for Law Enforcement. This is similar to the NPS standard.

Jesse McGahey
Climbing Ranger
Yosemite NP
MisterE

Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
Aug 31, 2010 - 06:51pm PT
Thanks for your post, Jesse - see you at Facelift!
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Aug 31, 2010 - 06:52pm PT
hey theresay, JesseM.... thanks for sharing with the folks here...

as always, things like this are hard for all involved...

god bless, to all...
:)
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 31, 2010 - 07:25pm PT
I tried the link that Jesse provided, but it looks like you have to be a subscriber (pay) to use it. I'd guess that most subscribers are lawyers, or people whose jobs require access, e.g. those who work in the police or court systems. Which means they're not likely to repost whatever is on that site, here.

To sum up:

1. There are still few known facts.

2. We haven't heard Ammon's side of the story, and aren't likely to, at least not here. (There could be other witnesses and evidence.)

3. There's no doubt that basejumping in the park, and from El Cap, is contrary to the CFR. Whether it should be legal, or permitted, is moot - it isn't.

4. Whether or not basejumping should be legal in Yosemite, it wasn't at the time Ammon is alleged to have jumped. It seems unlikely that he didn't know that, or the history of basejumping and law enforcement in the park. Likewise, attempting to escape/resisting arrest have never been legal.

5. Whether basejumping should be legalized or permitted in the park, and whether the police used excess zeal (surveillance) or force (taser) in arresting Ammon, are separate issues from what he did, although perhaps there is a constitutional rights issue.

6. We all want to express support of a fellow climber, right or wrong - but need to acknowledge that he may have been wrong, in the eyes of the law if not of the community.

7. It is within your rights to work to change the law. I don't know how that might be done, or whether it's possible, but suspect it would take considerable time and effort.

8. Commercialization and over-regulation of parks should be a concern for everyone.
atchafalaya

climber
Babylon
Aug 31, 2010 - 07:31pm PT
The complaints not up on PACER yet.
JesseM

Social climber
Yosemite
Aug 31, 2010 - 07:37pm PT
Anders,

It's not that much,

"An access fee of $0.08 per page, as approved by the Judicial Conference of the United States, will be assessed for access to this service. For more information about CM/ECF, click here or contact the PACER Service Center at (800) 676-6856."

-from pacer.gov
klk

Trad climber
cali
Aug 31, 2010 - 08:44pm PT
thanks jesse.

let's see how many folks want to spend 8 cents a page.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Aug 31, 2010 - 08:51pm PT
Oakland Man Dies After Being Shocked By Taser In Jail

Posted: 5:52 pm PDT August 18, 2010
DUBLIN, Calif. -- A 50-year-old Oakland man being held in Santa Rita Jail has died after being shocked twice by a Taser during a fight with deputies.

Sheriff's spokesman Sgt. J.D. Nelson says Martin Harrison died in a hospital about 5 a.m. Wednesday.

Harrison had been hospitalized since Monday night after the fight in the jail's minimum security area.

Nelson says Harrison was shocked by a Taser by one deputy, then shocked a second time when he charged the deputy and other deputies came to help out.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Aug 31, 2010 - 09:12pm PT
yes, don't run, or they take you felony style,

and we all know what that means, a little elevator ride at the station,

their fists like matured hams for pounding your brisket,

i'm moving to Germany. seems safer over there.

OK, name this old police show,

winner gets a free refer.


MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Aug 31, 2010 - 09:54pm PT
Is it a Felony or Misdemeanor to resist arrest or flee?

California = Penal Code 148 PC resisting arrest law is a misdemeanor.

Colorado = 18-8-103. Resisting arrest. = is a misdemeanor

Arizona = 13-2508. Resisting arrest; classification = Felony
jstan

climber
Aug 31, 2010 - 10:16pm PT
I have no personal knowledge as to the correctness of this source. Also it does not
discuss interactions with a Federal Officer.

http://www.ehow.com/about_6134557_definition-resisting-arrest.html

The Definition of Resisting Arrest
By Aura Talbott, eHow Contributor
updated: March 28, 2010

Resisting arrest can have serious consequences.
Being arrested is upsetting, whether you've committed a crime or not. It can be tempting
to resist arrest, but that's not something you should ever do. Resisting arrest can lead
to additional criminal charges, and it places you and the arresting officers in greater danger.

Definition of Resisting Arrest
Resisting arrest is defined as any attempt or effort to refuse or prevent a lawful arrest.
An arrest is considered lawful as long as the arresting officer follows proper police
procedure when making the arrest.

Actions That Constitute Resisting Arrest
Resisting arrest can include arguing with the arresting officer; struggling, fighting or
resisting when being handcuffed or placed in a patrol car; running away from the crime
scene; physically assaulting an officer; or brandishing a deadly weapon, whether or not
it is used. Resisting arrest without violence is a misdemeanor charge. Resisting arrest in
a violent way is a felony.

Grounds For Arrest
An officer can make an arrest if she has an arrest warrant, witnesses a crime being
committed or has probable cause to believe the person she is arresting has been
involved in a crime.

When an Arrest Occurs
If you are arrested, do not attempt to argue, flee or physically resist being taken into
custody. If it is determined that you are innocent, you will not have to worry about
facing charges for resisting arrest. If you are guilty, resisting arrest will only add to
your list of charges.

Know Your Rights
If you are arrested, you cannot be charged with resisting arrest if you refuse to speak
to the arresting officer. The right to remain silent is a constitutional right. If you are
interrogated after your arrest, you have the right to have a lawyer with you during
the interrogation. Cooperating with law enforcement officers during an arrest, regardless
of your guilt or innocence, is the best strategy.


http://www.ehow.com/about_5438461_penalties-resisting-arrest.html

Penalties for Resisting Arrest
By Jorge Pena, eHow Contributor
updated: September 21, 2009

If you have been charged with a crime, it is important that you comply with the
arresting police officers commands. Failure to do so--even when you reasonably
believe the arrest is unlawful--may result in additional penalties other than the
crime for which you are being arrested. Many states create a special crime for
resisting such arrests and have specific penalties attached to these crimes.

California
There are two types of resisting arrest convictions in California and thus there
are two different types of penalties for each conviction. A person can be convicted
of either misdemeanor resisting arrest or felony resisting arrest. The misdemeanor
offense can be punished for up to one year in jail and suffer a fine of up to $1,000.
The felony offense can be punished for up to three years in prison. Prison is not the
same thing as jail. A jail is typically less heavily guarded than prison and is designed
to house inmates who have been charged with a less serious offense. There is also
the potential for more freedom of movement and greater privileges in a jail.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Aug 31, 2010 - 10:41pm PT
Doc

77 Sunset Strip?
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Aug 31, 2010 - 11:12pm PT
hey there say... as to the old tv pic.... i think i am recognizing howard duff... but i never saw the show, so i don't know a title...

say, jstan (hope i remembered who posted this arrest info--will edit, if i got it wrong)...

well, i wanted to say this (though we all know about the "running" issue, now):


very sadly so, folks that have certain seizures CAN and will wander, and will not be responsive to an officer's (or anyone elses) commands to stop... very sadly, they will keep on moving, and if approached when having a these type of seizures, they WILL get scared and run... or, in worse cases, even try to fight back--when, if left alone for about:

three minutes---the seizure WOULD pass, and they'd slowly start becoming alert again...
EDIT:
and being NOT GUILTY of any crime, would not be supposed to even be
arrested... though, they may need someone to sit with them, til they fully recover their bearing... or call a friend...

many sad terrible things have happened to these folks, as to taser's, and such, all due to the brain-disorder (these were folks who were no danger to hurting someone, but---yes, they could possibly get hurt themselves, due to their surroundings:
but---the precious three minutes or so that they need, are NOT common knowledge in many police circles...

**just throwing all this in, so folks on either side, can learn...
hard times for all, and there have been deaths due to this, too, sadly,


well, one other thing, just sharing so folks will know:

long time back (perhaps still, in some areas) deaf folks have had terrible times, as to arrest, due to not hearing what an issue is about... some, too, from old days of lack of communication (as this is trying to be addresses more, these days) folks WOULD panic, and run, not trusting that they'd have any rights or anyone to speak for them, or, to even tell them what was going on (the old days, as i said---but in some towns, you'd be surprised how unlearned folks are as to how to help deal with someone who can't hear)...

also, i am not sure (this may or may not be true) but i think? i heard a ways back, that deaf folks were not to be handcuffed behind their back, due to the fact they could not communicate AT ALL then...

very bad if an innocent man or woman was arrested, and thus, would panic...



well, this does not apply to ammon, and all this, but since so much info is
being shared here, as to RUNNING:

i just thought, that the element of panic, needed to be brought up,
as SADLY folks panic and run... (though, yes, i do understand that folks can panic and thus get violent, too---especially drunks--who at the time, may feel quite innocent and picked on)...

well, it seems, from what i've read here:
i reckon one of the BEST things to pass on to others, is:
please don't run.... :O
(though, as i said, this will not work-out for someone that is suffereing an
epileptic seizure)...


well, carry on...

edit: say, dr. sprock.. the TV show is:
i will post the initianls:
F. S.

so someone else can try for your win... :))
all i need is a salute that "i know how to use the old search engine,
as to OLDER tv actors's work"

:))
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 31, 2010 - 11:29pm PT
that video footage was a bit too much like Footloose.
jstan

climber
Aug 31, 2010 - 11:29pm PT
Good dicussion neebee.

I was riding in the Mohonk truck once when Thom Scheuer saw something happening that should not have. He said, "I'll come back later after they have had some fun and arrest them."

Neebee is on target. The arresting officer always has to try and guess the person's frame of mind as it affects their probable reaction to arrest. I am guessing here but I think it possible one who has just based the Captain will be adrenalated.

I think good officers, like Thom definitely was, have a handle on this.
tooth

Trad climber
The Best Place On Earth
Aug 31, 2010 - 11:59pm PT
Checked out Taser's website. They have shotgun shells now that shoot 4 prongs into you and then the thing opens up and puts even more into the victim.



Those could be used on someone 1-2 pitches up! Handy when they find someone on Sickle without a permit to climb, just shoot and then leave the guy dangling at the end of his rope - no need to put in jail.

How far will they take it with the new toys Taser is coming out with?
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Sep 1, 2010 - 12:12am PT
Ding Ding Ding Ding!

we have a winner,

it is indeed F.S, or Felony Squad.

here is your prize.

i couldn't find a refer, but i found some thai weed>


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_Squad
Scared Silly

Trad climber
UT
Sep 1, 2010 - 12:12am PT
Neebee:

http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news/local/flagstaff/taser_death_112009


Interesting google search:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/economy-business-finance/taser-international-incorporated-ORCRP014899.topic
jstan

climber
Sep 1, 2010 - 12:16am PT
Weld_it

Trad climber
Chatsworth

Aug 31, 2010 - 08:50pm PT
I heard he had a nife on him.






Basers have to carrry a knife - right. They need it to cut the chute away if it fouls.

It would be risky not to have a knife - I would think.

With a knife there is no risk.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Sep 1, 2010 - 12:32am PT
i was thinking the same thing, only different,

he was folding up his chute, the cops told him to drop the chute,

he refuses, so they tazer the guy, pure speculation of course,

hey, open forum, to a degree,

now i am pissed at Ammon,

every time i go to the ditch, instead of thinkin ansel adams fake pics, i will be thinkin tazer,


corniss chopper

Mountain climber
san jose, ca
Sep 1, 2010 - 01:25am PT
Taser. The future is now!

Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Sep 1, 2010 - 02:07am PT
that's it. i've had it with the ss curry company.

i am running for president of yosemite this novenmber.

remember to vote early, and vote often.
BASE1430

climber
Cadyville, NY
Sep 1, 2010 - 12:51pm PT
This is an attack on the liberty of a group of people who choose to live in a way that is not understood. The liberty of others should not be regulated as long as it doesn't endanger another persons liberty. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I wish to pursue happiness by taking my liberty to risk my life!
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 1, 2010 - 01:30pm PT
It should be remembered that "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" is not even from the Constitution but from the Declaration of Independence.

For over two and a third centuries we've been adding fine print.


We are now at the point where even lawyers can't know ALL the laws.
How could civilians?

Perhaps not a coincidence that the US now imprisons more humans than any country in the history of the world.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Sep 1, 2010 - 08:43pm PT
hey there say, dr. sprock... oh my.... thanks for thinking of me, but say, just some simple "cowpie/manure" for the ol' roses, would have been fine... oh my.... :O

you see:
i'm more of a two shots of scotch, if i want to feel a buzz... never needed the other plant stuff... :)


howard duff, was the best clue... :) *am an old time movie gal, here, but still--even then, i have to do a yahoo-search if i can't place a face...
*never watch crime shows though---was surpirsed no one else got the title...


say, scared silly... i am off to go check your links you here...
thanks...

:)
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Sep 1, 2010 - 09:11pm PT
hey there all... say, aside from ammon, at the moment...

here is an interesting bit of news from scotland:
NEWS.scotsman.com:

Epileptic seizures warning to police over tasersPremium Article !

Date: 06 February 2010
USING a taser on someone with epilepsy could cause them to suffer a seizure, campaigners have warned.

Epilepsy Scotland has questioned whether police officers have had the training to properly identify seizures in people who seem unresponsive, intoxicated or aggressive.

Chief executive Lesslie Young said: "Without appropriate training, police officers at the very least could unnecessarily hurt someone with the taser just before, during or after a seizure when the individual is unable to respond. At worst, discharging a taser may potentially trigger a seizure in either a person with well-controlled epilepsy or someone who never had a seizure until 50,000 volts of electricity from a taser hits them."

Epilepsy Scotland is calling on police across Scotland to ensure adequate epilepsy training is available to their staff. The proposed introduction of tasers confirms again that awareness training for all operational staff is essential, it said

the reason that i share it:

as, it is always good and needed for those in law enforment, as well as health care, to KNOW what seizures are and who the behavorior DIFFERS from the behavorior of those with INTENT to harm...

as always, hours of training, and observing etc, is needed, but it can mean safety for citizens and officers as well, and stop unjust dangerous situations in many cases, perhaps far more than one realizes...

well, back to main topic now...
:)


edit:
*you can read a lot on this, if you do a search for:
seizure awarenss and tasers...
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Sep 1, 2010 - 11:17pm PT
Wow, five hundred posts of speculation, yet nobody is willing to spend eight cents a page, as Jesse suggests, to see what The Man has to say about Ammon, and get some factual information?

"There will be a use of force review panel for the incident (as always)."

"Look, it's the El Cap Pirate!"

"Get him!"
jstan

climber
Sep 1, 2010 - 11:21pm PT
The last mention I saw about Pacer said the document is not yet up.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 1, 2010 - 11:23pm PT
Jeff looked late this morning, and couldn't find anything.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1256162&msg=1257008#msg1257008

It could be much more than one page.
MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Sep 2, 2010 - 12:52am PT
Eye witness studies have shown that they are rarely reliable.

Even when witnesses see the exact same thing, their stories are different on the stand.

In the heat of the moment with split second reactions...............




The Government had said NO BASE!!
MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Sep 2, 2010 - 01:04am PT
There is a document that determines what "Fine" is given to certain crimes or infractions to the rules.

"BAIL SCHEDULE"

National Park Regulations are under Title 36 of the Code of Federal Regulations.

36 CFR

Breaking these laws is a misdemeanor but the LEOs have the option of using State law as well.

The "Bail Schedule" is determined by the Federal Judge overseeing the jurisdiction.

Sometimes it is money.

Sometimes it is mandatory court appearances.

Sometimes it is arrest.

Some guide lines for arrest is public safety, crime prevention, criminal flight, evidence protection.
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Sep 2, 2010 - 03:33am PT
I wish to pursue happiness by taking my liberty to risk my life!


not ok if you do so by driving the hwy at 150mph, would you agree?

if so, you agree at least in principle that laws can be made that restrict activities SOME people might otherwise choose to enjoy? and that the individual cannot simply decide to disregard said laws without risk of consequence to oneself?

pretty simple really.
maybe this thread would be better served if it were just about tasing, or just about the fact BASE jumping is not allowed in the park...
BASE1361

climber
Yosemite Valley National Park
Sep 2, 2010 - 03:51am PT
Matt the problem with your analogy is that driving on the HWY at 150mph involves innocent people in close proximity.

BASE jumping has only injured and killed ONE person. The jumper.

Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Sep 2, 2010 - 03:58am PT
i agree- to a degree.

however, what's right about my analogy still stands.
and since we don't have an opt-in system where we all just follow only those laws we agree with...
Sheik aka JD

Trad climber
Los Angeles
Sep 2, 2010 - 04:04am PT
A few anecdotes...

I've hung with the Brothers McNeely. They can get crazy. Good people though.

Once I was at the base of Half Dome at o-dark-thirty, getting ready for a climb, when the sound of falling refrigerators came screaming down the wall. We thought for sure we were dead from rockfall. After diving into the boulders and bushes we looked up and saw two frikkin' BASE jumpers in flight suits go whipping by. Pretty cool, until I felt the pain in my twisted ankle and had to hobble miles of terrain back to camp. That sucked. The rangers did eventually help though, with crutches, a horse, first aid, and a minimal insurance bill.

My family, close friends and I once fought a significant police brutality case. One rarely wins in that situation...false charges that typically get bargained into a plea (even if you did nothing wrong; it's often easier to take the plea bargain), time, money, physical pain, punitive damages, you against the system, etc. That sucked.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Sep 2, 2010 - 01:56pm PT
Perhaps not a coincidence that the US now imprisons more humans than any country in the history of the world.

Not quite. At least not yet.
That great bastion of Civil Rights and Democracy, The People's Republic of China is very likely way ahead of us. Even though they don't publish their numbers.

I believe we're #2
We're trying hard to be #1 'cause we always gotta be #1
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 2, 2010 - 02:00pm PT
Wrong.

Used to be the Soviet Union.


China ain't no bed of roses, but most of its people are subjugated by social circumstance.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
Sep 2, 2010 - 02:22pm PT
Just to clarify re pacer- it's the federal court's electronic filing system. No case, no document. A police report wouldn't be there. I checked and there is nothing current showing for Mr. McNeely.

Please continue to speculate wildly.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Sep 2, 2010 - 02:29pm PT
Ron
I stand (or rather sit) corrected.

Inmates per 100,000 population
USA: 748
Russia: 600
Brazil: approx 220
Britain: approx 150
China: approx 120
Canada: approx 110
France: approx 90
Germany: approx 80
Japan: approx 60

"There are over 4,000 Federal crimes, and many times that number of regulations that carry criminal penalties"

The Economist 24 July 2010
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 2, 2010 - 03:00pm PT
I was talking overall, although those stats support my claim.


It is due to the drug laws, which originated mostly out of racism.
Although prisons are a growth industry it is a black hole worse than gambling rendering our country less efficient and handicapping our ability to compete in a world economy.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 2, 2010 - 03:11pm PT
I said "originated".

First it was opium/heroin because the chinese liked it.

Then cocaine because blacks liked it.

Then alcohol. That didn't work out because white people liked it too much.


Sooooo, 1934 saw out of work federal agents. Instant fix; ban marijuana, again it is the choice of cheap laborers (this time mexicans).
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Sep 2, 2010 - 03:15pm PT
It has nothing to do with racism.

Jeff, it may not have much to do with racism at the point of arrest (although there are many who would dispute that), but it has a great deal to do with racism at the fundamental level.

Just one example is your comment about lower recidivism rates among whites. Don't you think it's easier to avoid returning to jail if the socioeconomic community you come from is the one which, because of racism, is the wealthy, educated one?
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Sep 2, 2010 - 03:16pm PT
That's right High Traverse - we are #1! GO USA! :)

edit: BTW, you can even compare counts and USA is number one. Pretty amazing isn't it? Pretty costly too.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 2, 2010 - 03:20pm PT
First it was opium/heroin because the chinese liked it.
It was also widely used in other communities, for medical or pseudo-medical purposes. Pretty much an all-purpose sedative and painkiller, to which many became addicted.
pc

climber
Sep 2, 2010 - 03:28pm PT
Sorry for the off topic rant...

Sh#t, If we're putting that many people away we might as well figure out how to benefit from it. Treat it as a "natural resource". Build giant hamster wheels, stick'em in, and make them generate power.

And please, let's streamline and add offenses to the death penalty. Rape, child molestation, violence with a weapon, etc. Zero lifespan for rapists, molesters, and violent criminals.

$.02,
pc
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 2, 2010 - 03:35pm PT
Yes MH, but it was perceived as asian.
Turn of the twentieth century a tenth of the entire adult population used cocaine daily.
It was in Coca-cola.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Sep 2, 2010 - 04:21pm PT
The Economist article on 24 July should be required reading. Why the numbers are so large; the trivial offenses that can get you put away for a Long Time; the cost to society in $$ and personal/family hardship (which of course is immaterial to many legislators); and much better alternatives.

What's this got to do with Tasering Ammon?
To my feeble mind, it's a gross overreaction to the seriousness of the offense. You mean the Yos Guns couldn't have intercepted Ammon when he tried to leave the valley? There are only three paved ways out. Or did they think he'd get back in his bat suit and fly? Perhaps he'd have marched out over Vogelsang and Dononue passes? Or cross country over the high peaks? Did he have a car in the valley they could have impounded? Suppose he got away? There'd be a Criminal loose in our midst?
I'm not excusing the BASE jump. It's illegal and Ammon likely knew it.

Certainly we are just hypothesizing about Ammon and I give him no excuses IF he was "resisting arrest". I also give the Yos Guns no excuses for tasing him in the back of the neck. IF that's true (which apparently it is). Better training in use of proportional force is indicated.
Barbarian

Trad climber
The great white north, eh?
Sep 2, 2010 - 04:22pm PT
"Prisons are a growth industry"

So true. The AZ Governor's friends stand to make a pretty penny on the incarceration of illegals.
SoyAnarchisto

Boulder climber
Boulder, CO
Sep 2, 2010 - 05:49pm PT
Really was hoping to see some facts after ~500 posts...
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Sep 2, 2010 - 05:55pm PT
The Yos Leo's have been hassling Ammon for years, they knew exactly who he was when they tasered the sh#t out of him...
MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Sep 2, 2010 - 06:05pm PT
ust to clarify re pacer- it's the federal court's electronic filing system. No case, no document. A police report wouldn't be there. I checked and there is nothing current showing for Mr. McNeely.

Please continue to speculate wildly.



Statute of Limitations.

They probably have a year to charge a misdemeanor and 7 years to prosecute a felony.

Big felonies don't have limits.
tomtom

Social climber
Seattle, Wa
Sep 2, 2010 - 06:47pm PT
Speaking of BULLSH#T and WRONG ...

Why do climbers like TONY BIRD TRASH El Cap? Why to you desecrate the rock you climb? Rangers have to risk their lived to clean climber's garbage and sh#t you left at Camp 6 of the Nose.

Why do you do nothing about this?
corniss chopper

Mountain climber
san jose, ca
Sep 2, 2010 - 07:12pm PT
Could anyone confirm the rumor that the Taser used on Ammon was retrofitted
with the Taser Cam?

Maybe we'll see his take down on Youtube one of these days.

Ammon's helmet cam recording would be of interest also.



http://shop.fortresstactical.com/TASER-Cam-p/cam.htm
Technical Specs TASER® - CAM $459

* Records approximately 1.5 hours of audio and MPEG4 video
* Uses infrared light to record when in complete darkness
* Rechargeable - powers the complete TASER
* Storage bay carries a spare cartridge
MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Sep 2, 2010 - 07:27pm PT
Could anyone confirm the rumor that the Taser used on Ammon was retrofitted
with the Taser Cam?

Really expecting to get info like that??
MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Sep 2, 2010 - 07:42pm PT
"96% of Officers were exonerated by video."
MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Sep 2, 2010 - 07:46pm PT
500

When the REAL info is released. I bet there will be another 500 post thread in ONE day.
duh clown

climber
Sep 3, 2010 - 12:21am PT
For those interested in the law regarding a citizen's Fourth Amendment rights against unconstitutional use of a taser by a law enforcement official you can start here: http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2009/12/28/08-55622.pdf
MisterE

Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
Sep 3, 2010 - 02:06am PT
To my feeble mind, it's a gross overreaction to the seriousness of the offense. You mean the Yos Guns couldn't have intercepted Ammon when he tried to leave the valley? There are only three paved ways out. Or did they think he'd get back in his bat suit and fly? Perhaps he'd have marched out over Vogelsang and Dononue passes? Or cross country over the high peaks? Did he have a car in the valley they could have impounded? Suppose he got away? There'd be a Criminal loose in our midst?

Hey, High Traverse, you need to come down for some air.

People (not necessarily Ammon) can hide out for weeks or months within the valley, and find all sorts of ways to get out unseen.

Your logic is faulty.
MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Sep 3, 2010 - 03:16am PT
Ammon speaks out!!!

http://www.latalkradio.com/images/Hardknocks-082810.mp3
MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Sep 3, 2010 - 03:19am PT
Any Lawyer much less a "Good Lawyer" would slap you around for talking on the radio about your crime.

Guess he doesn't have a lawyer yet.
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Sep 3, 2010 - 03:41am PT
wow, thanks for the link.
ß Î Ø T Ç H

climber
Sep 3, 2010 - 03:56am PT
OMFG !
Fishy

climber
Zurich, Switzerland
Sep 3, 2010 - 07:37am PT
Said he was walking away when they fired...

A small but key difference in wording from Bullwinkle's description above.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Sep 3, 2010 - 09:42am PT
Turn of the twentieth century a tenth of the entire adult population used cocaine daily.
It was in Coca-cola.

i've always found that interesting. i don't think coca-cola ever lost its place in the public heart after they took the coca out.
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Sep 3, 2010 - 11:19am PT
He also mentions the Rangers didn't identify themselves.

Gunna be his word against theirs in court...
pc

climber
Sep 3, 2010 - 11:35am PT
This whole thread is a very bad idea. Frickin' "eyewitnesses" talking here about what they saw? Stupid. Not to mention Ammon himself on radio. Sheesh. Someone pull the plug.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 3, 2010 - 11:42am PT
Has anybody put up a route called Tazed And Confused?
originalpmac

Mountain climber
Anywhere I like
Sep 3, 2010 - 11:44am PT
i would love to taze Jacobs or any of those other nazi bastards.
rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
Sep 3, 2010 - 02:11pm PT
I was a bit surprised that Ammon decided to go on the radio. If he has a lawyer, my guess is the guy is just rolling his eyes.

Best to keep one's mouth shut with things like this.
jstan

climber
Sep 3, 2010 - 02:15pm PT
Lots of rolling eyes on this one.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Sep 3, 2010 - 02:38pm PT
Just to clarify re pacer- it's the federal court's electronic filing system. No case, no document. A police report wouldn't be there. I checked and there is nothing current showing for Mr. McNeely.

Please continue to speculate wildly.

police reports are public record. they may not want to release them but they have to. rangers acting as police should have something on file at valley headquarters. you want to undertake a good lead, walk in there and ask for it.

tomtom--that's an interesting name, kinda like jay walker

Why do climbers like TONY BIRD TRASH El Cap? Why to you desecrate the rock you climb? Rangers have to risk their lived to clean climber's garbage and sh#t you left at Camp 6 of the Nose.

a little reading comprehension, please. i've never had the pleasure of visiting camp 6. how do you derive that from:

if camp 6 has become such a damn pigsty, why isn't it a major project for facelift? i frankly don't think it should be the rangers' job to be doing that for climbers. cleaning up after ourselves used to be part of our ethic.

¡ma-donna ...

i don't have 46 minutes to spend listening to a lot of cool-cool radio talk to pull out the gist. anyone care to synopsize that?

sometimes cases get tried in the public forum before they come to court. some lawyers don't recommend that, others do a good job with it--depends on the lawyer, the circumstances and the chances they want to take.

fattrad seems like a nice enough fellow, but his approach to public action is a lot like chief's on the other side of the range, "trust me" and the good old boys will get it done for you, except you might have to wait a very long time. i've seen it a little different, and my faith is in a good system which will atrophy if we don't continue to exercise the rights which are ours.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Sep 3, 2010 - 03:21pm PT
must reiterate: Lame.
ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
California
Sep 3, 2010 - 05:53pm PT

I already know the rangers are planning on lying about what happened, I have nothing to hide (unlike them), so I feel like I can talk as much as I want. Their edited version of video isn't the only video out there.

Tom, you sure do have a lot of opinions on something you have no clue about.

I will state that I was tased unnecessarily and feel confident that it can be proved.
MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Sep 3, 2010 - 06:07pm PT
Give a man enough rope and he will hang himself.

Already admitted to breaking the law on the RADIO.

Case Closed.

I already know the rangers are planning on lying about what happened, I have nothing to hide (unlike them), so I feel like I can talk as much as I want. Their edited version of video isn't the only video out there.

Tom, you sure do have a lot of opinions on something you have no clue about.

I will state that I was tased unnecessarily and feel confident that it can be proved.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 3, 2010 - 06:07pm PT
2nd post. I'd go with Fattrads advice Pirate. We all, all of us, wish you well and most of us are tired of living in a society where we can be so easily misled, controlled, spied on, and manipulated by the authorities.

BTW, little more of a rant - rant...this bullshit where the police get to steal your stuff is just wrong. Wrong!
MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Sep 3, 2010 - 06:10pm PT
Now to the second case.

EVERYONE that is arrested tells a different story and CLAIMS abuse.

42 usc 1983 cases are very rare.

Better start getting all your dirt bag buddies to fund your campian.
MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Sep 3, 2010 - 06:11pm PT
BTW, little more of a rant - rant...this bullshit where the police get to steal your stuff is just wrong. Wrong!

It is called evidence. Cops get to hold onto it.
MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Sep 3, 2010 - 06:15pm PT
Ammon, you act like a child.

"I broke the law using my toys."

"I am so bummed they took my toys."

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

Not like you are the first to have their Base gear taken.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 3, 2010 - 06:18pm PT
Revenge is supposedly best eaten cold.

As a lawyer, I strongly advise Ammon to talk about what happened and the aftermath only with a) his lawyer, and b) under oath in court. It may be galling not to get your side of the story out, and not to talk about it with friends, but if there's any defence at all, it's in your best interests. One of the first steps of any competent defence lawyer is to tell the client to STFU.

It is very risky to say things like: "I already know the rangers are planning on lying about what happened". Whether or not they did, proving it to a judge's satisfaction in a court isn't easy. Such statements, if made in court, are likely privileged - but not outside court. Add a name to such a statement, and you may find yourself on the receiving end of a civil action for defamation. An action where your testimony can probably be compelled.

It's kind of Ammon's friends to come to his support, but again, anything that is said here can and will be used against him, at least in sentencing. Let's say he is convicted, and they're discussing the sentence. The police or the prosecutor might print out and present this thread, for the judge to understand the context of what happened, and to "prove" that base jumpers are an out-of-control menace to all right-thinking citizens, and the park.
MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Sep 3, 2010 - 06:20pm PT
Here is some more info for the Pirate.

Watch your Libel and Slander be use against you in court.

You know it from American Society and TV.

“You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to speak to an attorney….”

So when the sentence is handed down (Fine, probation, banned from national parks, ETC) will you break the law again and probation??

Can you handle being kicked out of Yosemite for a few years??

You already can't handle them taking the "EVIDENCE".
ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
California
Sep 3, 2010 - 06:22pm PT

You guys are hilarious! Like I said, I have nothing to hide. I’ve already admitted to the rangers that I jumped off El Cap. Yep, I broke the law and will deal with the consequences.
MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Sep 3, 2010 - 06:27pm PT
I want to see this shaky video shot in low light. Like this mysterious video caught everything.

Was there a camera being used by a bro to put on YouTube or a touron?
MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Sep 3, 2010 - 06:36pm PT
This will still be interesting for a while.


Chongo incident = climbers lied in court for their own

Ammon incident = climbers claim Rangers lie too


The rift continues. 50 years of Yosemite tradition is alive and well.
pc

climber
Sep 3, 2010 - 06:42pm PT
Mtucker, What is your problem?
Bullwinkle

Boulder climber
Sep 3, 2010 - 07:01pm PT
He's a Tool, that's his problem. . .
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 3, 2010 - 07:33pm PT
Mt.phucker is a known quantity.


The pirate is apparently channelling Tobin and leading with a rope tied around his neck.
Very impressive.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Sep 3, 2010 - 07:48pm PT
the law may also have been broken by whoever used a taser. tasering is a violent act. such acts are inherently criminal unless they are done with good cause.

an internal investigation is not the same as a criminal investigation. i suggest mr. mcneely investigate the laws and policies which pertain and consider bringing criminal charges if he believes criminal activity took place.
MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Sep 3, 2010 - 07:51pm PT
I have been waiting for that one. You guys are slow on the draw. I truly expect so much more.

Nope, I am just a jilted lover.

He stole my girl and she left with no word. She still has never confessed.

MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Sep 3, 2010 - 07:57pm PT
He can only do the civil route. And it is only "preponderance of the evidence" as burden of proof. Like more than %50.

The government has to do the criminal part. But they will need him as a witness.

Burden of proof for the fed is "beyond a reasonable doubt"
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Sep 3, 2010 - 08:05pm PT
not true, tucker. if you believe a crime has been committed, you can lodge a criminal complaint and it must be followed up on. it isn't something to be taken lightly, but it's the right of every citizen. law enforcement people are not immune to the laws they are entrusted to uphold.

if you think the government itself is involved in a crime, there are certain avenues open, such as the standing grand jury. things get tricky with overlapping jurisdictions, but the primary responsibility for law enforcement lies with every county sheriff. in some counties in the u.s., sheriffs have been known to tell meddling feds, such as ATF officers, to get out.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 3, 2010 - 08:49pm PT
I'm reminded of what Oscar Wilde said of fox hunting: The pursuit of the inedible by the unspeakable.
rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
Sep 3, 2010 - 09:16pm PT
Speaking with the media or publicly about this incident is not in Ammons' best interest. The best thing for him to do, and his friends, is SHUT UP.
MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Sep 3, 2010 - 09:20pm PT
You can hardly open a news paper around the country without a "Bad Cop" story in it.

Tony Tony,

The Sheriff and his department are paid for by tax dollars. They are part of the government. They are included in the "Tool" academy. They can be and are just as bad as any other.

Cops at any level are not above the law but there are lots of laws and protections on their side. Like I said, SUCCESSFUL law suits against them are rare.

Sure, regular people can make a complaint with a Grand Jury. But an indictment gets kicked over to the courts and the local government authorities. Part of the local cops job is to work with and for the "County Attorney’s Office" for evidence collection and other duties.

Grand juries are not the easiest to get to or work with. Few states have grand juries at the county level.

As the saying goes "Grand Juries with indict a ham sandwich"

What happens to those sandwiches? DAs and such can do what ever.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Sep 3, 2010 - 09:22pm PT
don't forget that besides the criminal part, Ammon can certainly sue in a civil suit, against the stupid taser smuck only.

thats why if you pop someone robbing your house, their family can still sue you, even if he broke the law.

Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Sep 3, 2010 - 09:24pm PT
for what?

copping a feel on a nude sun bather?

Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Sep 3, 2010 - 09:39pm PT
the law isn't protecting them, tucker. only custom. custom isn't easy to change and it's actually more powerful than the law. custom begins with you and me.

you're talking like a lawyer. are you one? lawyers are always talking about probabilities and they don't generally encourage people to stand for their rights against apparently tough odds. they are the voice of the status quo.

this all changes, of course, when there's a great deal of money involved. i suspect ammon has spent most of his on his BASE equipment, now confiscated. if he has resources, however, very clever lawyers could suddenly develop amazing fits of imagination.

those of us who must find our way outside of this lopsided process must begin by educating ourselves about our own rights. often we have to stand for them largely on our own. i won a pretty good case for myself in court once doing just that--if i had listened to my lawyer i'd have probably spent the rest of my life as a puppydog on a leash. we have a good system, a very good system. a bad cop will be afraid of it if it's brought to play against him.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Sep 3, 2010 - 09:40pm PT
Revenge is supposedly best eaten cold.

As a lawyer, I strongly advise Ammon to talk about what happened and the aftermath only with a) his lawyer, and b) under oath in court.Italic Text It may be galling not to get your side of the story out, and not to talk about it with friends, but if there's any defence at all, it's in your best interests. One of the first steps of any competent defence lawyer is to tell the client to STFU.

It is very risky to say things like: "I already know the rangers are planning on lying about what happened". Whether or not they did, proving it to a judge's satisfaction in a court isn't easy. Such statements, if made in court, are likely privileged - but not outside court. Add a name to such a statement, and you may find yourself on the receiving end of a civil action for defamation. An action where your testimony can probably be compelled.

It's kind of Ammon's friends to come to his support, but again, anything that is said here can and will be used against him, at least in sentencing. Let's say he is convicted, and they're discussing the sentence. The police or the prosecutor might print out and present this thread, for the judge to understand the context of what happened, and to "prove" that base jumpers are an out-of-control menace to all right-thinking citizens, and the park.

This bears repeating.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Sep 3, 2010 - 09:40pm PT
you guys may as well do the strawberry shortcake,
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Sep 3, 2010 - 10:07pm PT

DATELINE SOMEWHERE - Steph Davis speaks out...


http://vimeo.com/14680082
rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
Sep 3, 2010 - 10:15pm PT
Oh good lord...
MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Sep 3, 2010 - 10:28pm PT
She didn't even say 3...2...1...C YA!
elcap-pics

Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
Sep 3, 2010 - 11:02pm PT
Pirate... yeah you are so right and I have stated almost every time I have posted that I don't have a clue. Interesting speculating though since for 500 posts NO ONE knew anything, not just me! I and almost everyone else here wishes you the best of luck in the courts. I have posted several times but with one theme... sorry you got caught jumping... the penalty is much to harsh... but if you resisted arrest then you got what you earned, being tased, but if you didn't, then, if you can afford it, take the tasers to court and get some $$$$ for your suffering. I think a lot of the posts here that were intended to support base jumping have done more harm than good.

That said... STOP POSTING HERE AS IT WILL DO YOU NO GOOD IN COURT.

I also hope you will not be personally offended that some of your friends do not think base jumping in the park is something that should be "legalized".... nothing to do with you or your situation. As I have also clearly stated... nothing I know of has so little value as my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt.
Best of luck man....
MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Sep 3, 2010 - 11:06pm PT
"ammon jumped, the rangers wanted to stop him as he walked away in the dark, and they tased him."

Steph Davis - Twitter
http://twitter.com/highsteph
Kalimon

Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
Sep 3, 2010 - 11:07pm PT
Cops at any level are not above the law but there are lots of laws and protections on their side. Like I said, SUCCESSFUL law suits against them are rare.

The pigs tend to get away with their illegal actions and activities.

Isn't that special.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Sep 4, 2010 - 12:03am PT
@ Steph Davis ^^^




It was too annoying to watch more than 60 seconds of it. For the love of god.

DELETE!
MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Sep 4, 2010 - 12:54am PT
Ammon "He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named" McNeely

bmacd

climber
Relic Hominid
Sep 4, 2010 - 12:56am PT
I couldn't watch it all either, 50 bucks sez Steph's gonna be the next tazzing victim in the valley.

I thot I knew how to make a fool of myself
Mimi

climber
Sep 4, 2010 - 01:01am PT
I agree with both Dave and Jim on this issue; currently not the best idea to allow jumping in the Valley.

Can there be select jumping days like at the New River Gorge? That is a much smaller bridge jump and the area has a longer history with jumping but can this be organized?

I love watching the evolution of sport before our eyes. No surprise regulations would enter the picture. Those people must be crazy! We must stop them!

Our generation is witnessing an amazing array of human evolution and sport. So glad climbers don't have to jump through so many hoops to do their thing. We really do have a lot of freedom.
Pennsylenvy

Gym climber
A dingy corner in your refrigerator
Sep 4, 2010 - 01:01am PT
Kalimon


Trad climber
Ridgway, CO Sep 3, 2010 - 08:07pm PT

Cops at any level are not above the law but there are lots of laws and protections on their side. Like I said, SUCCESSFUL law suits against them are rare.

The pigs tend to get away with their illegal actions and activities.

Isn't that special.



MTucker


Ice climber
Arizona Sep 3, 2010 - 04:57pm PT
He can only do the civil route. And it is only "preponderance of the evidence" as burden of proof. Like more than %50.

The government has to do the criminal part. But they will need him as a witness.

Burden of proof for the fed is "beyond a reasonable doubt"


Hammer meet nail. Fatrad why do you wish MTucker delete his posts? A) Because it provides an in depth look at corruption within the/your system? B) He is a complete troll/Idiot? Or C, please explain.........
MisterE

Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
Sep 4, 2010 - 02:24am PT
I don't care what the laws are, I don't care what the rules are

Nice, Steph. That is a great way to make it better.

As much as I support Ammon's jump, I gotta go with Fattrad and Anders on this one.

STFU until you have talked to your lawyer and/or been to court.

What a trainwreck.
Mimi

climber
Sep 4, 2010 - 02:34am PT
Ditto. I'm all for being a rebel but there's something about what they show on TV about the importance of lawyering up.
Mimi

climber
Sep 4, 2010 - 02:37am PT
That explains a lot.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Sep 4, 2010 - 02:44am PT
don't they have tv in prison?

me and bubba had frickin cable in the downstairs basement during the 30 day lockdown,

the most monogamous relationship i ever had was in the joint, me and bubba, down there together, just us, for thirty fun packed days,man, i miss the good ol days, three hots and a cot, and bubba was hot alright, every damn night, it was real tight,
Mimi

climber
Sep 4, 2010 - 02:58am PT
Hey Doc, save them stories for the other campfire.

How's the summer been with El Nino and all? True to form up here.
ß Î Ø T Ç H

climber
Sep 4, 2010 - 03:38am PT
In the internet age getting arrested or tazed is small potatoes and welcomed in fact (Nitro Circus and all that) . Kudos to Ammon for his light-hearted approach .
Mimi

climber
Sep 4, 2010 - 03:40am PT
Did you read the interview with the Google owner who said that much of today's youth would have to change their names to shake their tainted web identities?
Mimi

climber
Sep 4, 2010 - 03:46am PT
I meant to gingerly add to biotch's comment.
Mimi

climber
Sep 4, 2010 - 03:49am PT
Nevermind.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Sep 4, 2010 - 03:50am PT
can anybody around here construct a complete sentance?
MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Sep 4, 2010 - 04:06am PT
So Ammon does a crime.

Cops need to address the crime.

Criminal walks away = Actively trying to avoid arrest and not facing his crime.

Cops now have to stop him. Now, not later.

Talk to him? He is not listening

Trip him? Nope

Pepper spray? Nope has to be in the face to work. Not the back of his head when he is walking.

Tackle him? No, cops are trained to use methods to not get injured themselves.

Baton? Pretty high on Use of Force to beat him with a metal rod.

Gun? No

Let him get into a car? No, car chases are bad news.

Let him get away? Nope

Let him destroy evidence? No (possession of base gear and maybe a helmet cam)

The industry standard is the Taser in this type of situation.

If Ammon’s side is true, he should have just put the handcuffs on and said “take me boys, I am man enough to accept it and not stupid enough to resist arrest.”

This incident could be bigger than it seems.

Instead of one misdemeanor crime, Ammon could be facing much, much more.

Base Jumping
Resisting Arrest
Fleeing the scene of a crime
Ignored lawful order
Lying to the cops?

conspiracy?

Did others hike up with Ammon?
Did others jump with Ammon?
Did he have a getaway driver?

extenuating circumstances?

Past criminal history?
Suspected to have done this crime before?
Any drugs?
Any alcohol?
Weapons?


Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Sep 4, 2010 - 04:14am PT
i tasered my mom last night because she burned the cookies, stupid bi-atch!

then i tasered the poodle, while it was using the toilet,

left the damn seat up,
sethsquatch76

Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
Sep 4, 2010 - 08:42am PT
Its just amazing Ammon has not been tased before in the Valley.........
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Sep 4, 2010 - 10:37am PT
i tasered my mom last night because she burned the cookies, stupid bi-atch!


but it's a long climb out of the basement.
cintune

climber
the Moon and Antarctica
Sep 4, 2010 - 10:46am PT

tooth

Trad climber
The Best Place On Earth
Sep 4, 2010 - 11:09am PT
Running around hiding????


Kinda sounds from his words that he was walking, knew the dumb rules and doesn't worship touron guides like you do!


Once enough people climbed rock in Yos. parks had to accept it. The same can happen with other low-impact sports. But only those with balls will start - apparently Skipt would rather see roads paved and lodges built in the valley to accommodate users like him than jumping allowed to accommodate those who live between the trees and sky.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Sep 4, 2010 - 01:23pm PT
grow up = kill your spirit, deaden your soul,

conform or be cast out,
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Sep 4, 2010 - 01:47pm PT
the issues get a little confused in this thread, IMO.


there is the BASE issue, with all it's splinter issues:
is BASE jumping legal in whatever location(s) or should it be, why or why not, how to work toward it, whether or not to jump illegally, even questions of whether or not illegal jumping works for against the possibility of legalizing jumping.


then there are the issues surrounding tasers and their use by law enforcement, both in the park and elsewhere. these can be split again into the issues and circumstances specific to this event and those not.




what i find quite silly is that the people who are most wrapped up in supporting ammon here are unable to focus (yes i am generalizing) on the tasing without talking about the BASE issues. BASE is illegal in YNP, period. when you look at steph's video for example, i think she comes across as just a bit ridiculous (what if people wanting to shoot heroin in the meadow made the same statement? ("we just wanna be free, and it's beautiful man!). there are other places to do it legally, so do it it there, or otherwise quit whining about that aspect, it just muddys the water.



as far as tasing goes, someone posted:
The industry standard is the Taser in this type of situation.

that may be true- it seems to be based upon what i see on youtube.
this is becoming a bigger and bigger problem, and people are waking up to it. i would argue that there need to be some stringent use of force limits in place nationally, so that all violent interventions (baton, taser, weapon, whatever) are used as a last resort, period.

tasers ought not to increase the safety of the officer at the expense of the public's safety, and that is what i see happening. the use of tasers comes in too often, and too early, and it replaces a variety of skills which professional LEOs ought to be trained in and ought to be skilled in, if in fact they are there to serve the public. it's simply a question of the overall philosophy of law enforcement and just what are their priorities, and those are serious questions, not just academic considerations.

can an individual or suspect legally/reasonably be apprehended with a certain level of force, that would obviously depend on multiple criteria, but for example, would it be reasonable to use baton strikes to apprehend a petty shoplifter? a jay walker? someone skateboarding on a sidewalk where it's posted to be illegal? and what about someone walking away from a BASE jump?

i would say that a taser should never be used in an instance where the use of a baton could not also be justified, but i know that is not the current legal standard. maybe it should be? i would support working toward that end. however, i would also suggest that whining in an obtuse manner about how you just wanna be free and BASE never hurt anyone and so rangers need to work to make things better or authorities need to adapt because climbers now BASE jump, it really just sounds like a load of self entitled immaturity.

know the law, follow the law, or if you don't follow the law, understand that you are choosing to break the law and accept the consequences.


if you are jumping in protest to the law, then do it openly, not in a game of cat and mouse, that's not a protest, it's evading law enforcement. i am not saying that with judgement, i am just calling a spade a spade. that said, i do not expect that when jumpers jump illegally in YNP that it can be argued they are advancing the cause of legalizing BASE in the park.

it sure seems a shame, in so many ways, that the one poor jumper cratered in that protest a few years back- can't help but wonder if that hadn't happened if there might be more middle ground now.


paz y amor
(and happy LEO evasion, you buncha law breakers you! =)
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Sep 4, 2010 - 03:23pm PT
Is there a Legal Defense Fund setup for Ammon yet? I think quite a few who would be willing to donate some $$$.
nita

Social climber
chica from chico, I don't claim to be a daisy
Sep 4, 2010 - 03:23pm PT
Mr Ammon, Good luck in court..

Sincerely..
nita

MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Sep 4, 2010 - 03:29pm PT
Funny that I said "Walk the Plank" then started in on the Thread about the Pirate.

Hard to pic out when I just pretend to be like the masses here??
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Sep 4, 2010 - 03:39pm PT
post your favorite fascist>


Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Sep 4, 2010 - 03:41pm PT
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Sep 4, 2010 - 03:41pm PT
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Sep 4, 2010 - 03:49pm PT
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Sep 4, 2010 - 03:51pm PT
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Sep 4, 2010 - 03:58pm PT
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Sep 4, 2010 - 03:59pm PT

Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Sep 4, 2010 - 04:04pm PT
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Sep 4, 2010 - 04:08pm PT
Jack Cover, 88, Physicist Who Invented the Taser Stun Gun, Dies


By BRUCE WEBER
Published: February 16, 2009

Jack Cover, the physicist who invented the Taser stun gun, the police weapon that subdues its targets with jolts of electricity, died Feb. 7 in Mission Viejo, Calif. He was 88 and lived in San Clemente, Calif.
Skip to next paragraph
United Press International

Jack Cover with a model of his invention in September 1975.

The cause was pneumonia brought on by Alzheimer’s disease, said his wife, Ginny.

Mr. Cover (pronounced KOH-ver), who worked as an aerospace scientist and was affiliated with NASA’s Apollo moon landing program, came up with the idea for a nonlethal weapon for use in law enforcement in the 1960s as a response to emergencies in the news, including airplane hijackings.

The scientific inspiration, Ms. Cover said, was a newspaper article about a man who had inadvertently walked into an electrified fence and survived, though he was temporarily immobilized.

“When he read that had happened, he knew an electric current could be used without danger,” Ms. Cover said.

Mr. Cover named his invention as a tribute to another inspiration, the Tom Swift science fiction novels he read as a child, one of which was “Tom Swift and His Electric Rifle.” He created an acronym from “Thomas Swift Electric Rifle,” adding the “A,” he explained to The Washington Post in 1976, “because we got tired of answering the phone ‘T.S.E.R.’ ”

The Taser gun shoots electrified darts connected to the gun by insulated wires, and it works by flooding the target’s body with current, causing uncontrollable muscle contractions.

Small amounts of current are not inherently dangerous, but the safety threshold is not absolute, especially involving people whose heart circuitry has been made vulnerable by drug use or overexertion, common factors among resisting offenders.

Law enforcement agencies generally support the Taser as a worthy tool that protects officers from violent offenders and protects the suspects as well. According to Taser International, founded in 1993, which markets products based on Mr. Cover’s original invention, more than 13,400 law enforcement agencies around the world now use Tasers. More than 375,000 individual officers have them, and so do more than 181,000 private citizens.

From 1976 to 1995, Tasers were considered firearms because the darts were propelled by gunpowder. Approached in 1993 by Taser International, Mr. Cover modified the weapon so that it was powered by compressed nitrogen, allowing Tasers to be freely sold to the public.

The proliferation of Tasers has made them controversial, as their frequent use has led to fears of their overuse. According to Amnesty International, which seeks to have the use of Tasers by private citizens prohibited and use by the police curtailed pending further study, at least 334 people have died since 2001 after being shot with Tasers by police officers.

In a statement sent by e-mail on Friday, a spokesman for Taser International, Steve Tuttle, said, “We stand by the safety of our devices.”

John Higson Cover Jr., known as Jack, was born in New York City on April 6, 1920, and grew up mostly in Chicago, where his father was a professor of economics and his mother earned a master’s degree in mathematics at the University of Chicago. Mr. Cover later earned a B.S. and a Ph.D. in physics there.

He was a scientist at North American Aviation (which later became Rockwell International), a National Aeronautics and Space Administration contractor, and he led the company’s team of researchers working on the Apollo project.

Mr. Cover’s first two marriages ended in divorce. In addition to his wife, he is survived by a son, Steven, of Newport, Wash.; three daughters, Dede Rhodes, also of Newport, Melissa Beckley of Brush Prairie, Wash., and Cathy Cover of Tucson; two stepchildren, Shawn Kerr of San Clemente and Aron Fisher of Menifee, Calif.; 10 grandchildren and five great-grandchildren.

On the issue of Taser safety, Mr. Cover was unwavering.

“He used to say he saved 100,000 lives,” his wife said.
MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Sep 4, 2010 - 04:26pm PT
can an individual or suspect legally/reasonably be apprehended with a certain level of force, that would obviously depend on multiple criteria, but for example, would it be reasonable to use baton strikes to apprehend a petty shoplifter? a jay walker? someone skateboarding on a sidewalk where it's posted to be illegal? and what about someone walking away from a BASE jump?

Matt, you make a statement about separating crimes such as illegal Base v resisting arrest but make the statement above.

If criminals just comply with the arresting officer there wouldn't be high speed chases, cop shooting perps, beatings, taser use, ETC.

You will have your chance to plead your case but the cops are not the right people to complain too and the heat of the moment is not the time.

Shut up, suck it up that you spend the night in jail, and get the public defender or lawyer.

Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Sep 4, 2010 - 04:59pm PT
that's not my point, obviously.

if someone does not comply in any way, it does not necessarily follow that the use of force is either necessary or allowable, and IF the use of force is allowable in a situation where an individual is non-compliant, the use of a taser ought to be strictly restricted (as should that of a baton) to a situation where 1) all other reasonable options have been exercised, and 2) the subject represents a risk to the physical well being of the officer(s), her/him self, or the public.

absent those criteria, the use of a taser should be illegal, based upon both the physical pain it creates, and the significant risk to the individual being subjected to it's use.

i am not arguing that base jumping is somehow inherently a legal right because it somehow represents freedom, but i would argue that it's closer to jay-walking than to violent crime, or it's closer to riding a bicycle on a trail in yosemite than to drunk driving.

i mean, what is the real idea here?
most good americans agree (as#@&%e fascists notwithstanding) that it's not ok for the USA to torture terrorists (it's certainly illegal, at any rate, even if those laws are apparently not enforced), but somehow the LEO community in this country is given a free pass to essentially torture an individual who is non-compliant, d of other criteria? i find that just amazing, and somewhat obscene.

yes, it diminishes whatever risk might exist for the LEO, but so would shooting the subject dead, and we wouldn't do that, right? (...right?)

MT- your argument would read exactly the same if the argument were shooting the person with rocksalt in the genitals... "shoulda complied, it's your own damn fault, do the crime, do the time...
cintune

climber
the Moon and Antarctica
Sep 4, 2010 - 05:44pm PT

TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
Sep 4, 2010 - 06:18pm PT
I don't believe any of us know the whole story.
However, tasing seems to me, to be over reacting to a "victimless" crime, regardless if he did try to evade arrest. Strong arm a tourist, rob the deli, skip out on your mountain room bar tab( just kidding, I've been thrown out of there not once, not twice, but on three occasions, but I still don't condone pulling a runner) tase the sh#t out of him. But not for flying. Not too long ago, a flyer drown after being pursued into the Merced. Whether or not it had merit, it seemed like it could have been a wrongful death suit waiting to happen.
I agree with much of what Tom( El-Cap pics) wrote several posts up. Obviously things need to change and the change has to be bi-lateral and bi partisan. Seems like the laws here are where the pot laws were in the 50's and early 60's. Perhaps a dialog between a base/flyer colalition and the NPS would be conducive to avoiding this kind of reaction in the future.
Till then, Ammon, please talk only to your legal guys. Take the free and very good legal advise here on this forum. Good luck mate.!
AstroArlo

Trad climber
Jackson, WY
Sep 4, 2010 - 08:08pm PT
As a volunteer EMT who works frequently with both Grand Teton park rangers, local sheriff deputies, and city police officers, I can say that too many here are painting them as gun happy loose cannons violating everyone's rights and employing exceessive force just because they can.

Nothing is farther from the truth!

Everyone should spend a few days on patrol with a LEO to see how they are extremely patient, tolerant, and try to avoid causing any physical harm to the public which they serve.

Believe me, these honorable people tolerate a huge amount of crap and abuse from the public, but respond to the abuse with calmness and respect for the people they are dealing with. I suspect that many of the people here would be pounding the crap out of somebody who gave them 1/4 the abuse that the LEO's graciously put up with. In my experience observing 100's of interactions between LEO's and the public, it takes significant escalation and provocation on the part of the public before any force by LEOs is utilized. Are there bad cops? yup. Are there as#@&%e climbers? yup. But these are the exceptions rather than the rule.

All LEOs want is to be respected and to follow their instructions. If you respect them, follow their instructions, and tell the truth, you'll come through unscathed. Yes, you might get a ticket, or even be arrested, but you probably broke a law. You'll get the chance to prove your case in court.

On my way back from Yosemite in May, I got pulled over by a Highway Patrolman in Winnemucca. I was doing 72 in a 65. He asked me how fast I was going....I told him when I looked down at the speedometer I was going over 70 mph, and I knew it was a 65 zone. We talked about this for a couple of minutes, and then ended up in a friendly conversation about my trip and climbs in Yosemite for about 15 minutes. I got a warning and went about my business...the awesome power of respect and honesty!

As far as base jumping being a victimless crime, consider what would happen if another victimless crime, illegal camping, were allowed to proceed unenforced in Yosemite. Imagine what Yosemite would be like if people were allowed to camp wherever, whenever, and for as long as they liked...it would not be a pretty sight, and Yosemite's environment would be rapidly destroyed. Although the camping regs are a hassle, I totally agree that they are necessary.

If you don't like the base jumping laws, then work to get them changed. Breaking the law and then running from the authorities is not a great way to make your case! Respecting the law and the LEOs, demonstrating that you care about Yosemite and that you are responsible adults, and working through the right channels is the only way things are going to change.

But also accept that the general public may think that Yosemite is not a place for base jumping. There are many things that are banned in National Parks which some people think should be legal, but the majority think should not.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 4, 2010 - 09:21pm PT
So they should be able to tase illegal campers too?

And Yoko and Lois go unscathed?
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Sep 5, 2010 - 12:34am PT
I'm not a huge fan of LEO in general, but . . .
Seems to me that when you're caught, you're caught, and you should comply with LEO instructions from that point on.
If you don't, you've just seriously escalated the situation, and no matter how trivial it was when it started, it isn't from that point on.

Put another way, evading is a serious crime in and of itself, and that trumps the fact that the evasion may have been due to a minor crime. Lots of other people have said the same thing, just bears repeating.
sammy-pajamy

Boulder climber
citrus heights ca
Sep 5, 2010 - 01:38am PT
dingus milktoast since your impossible to reach by phone im in fort bragg with linda and her two monsters and aunt kenzi for the weekend in some hotel and im going bouldering tmrw for sure on some beach over here if we can figure out the tide things get ahold of me or andy pop love you
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Sep 5, 2010 - 07:30am PT
I am 48 years old.. Never been roughed up or tasered by the cops. It's actually pretty easy to not get tasered. Even if have broken the law and pissed them off they usualy calm down pretty quick if you grovel properly when caught.

Life is tough when you are stupid. Simple lesson that I learned many moons ago. Calling cops names, giveing them the finger, back talking, etc is all a real bad idea. I was smart enough to learn these things from watching other stupid people mouth off to the cops and observing the results.

It may not be right but it is a plain and simple fact that cops have complete and ultimate power over your life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.
The only way to deal with them and have a happy ending to the story is to follow the yes sir, no sir path and hope for the best.

If the cops are wrong prove it in court.. Out on the street you have no chance and things will get dramaticly worse for you if you argue with them.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Sep 5, 2010 - 11:32am PT
We seem to have a real dichotomy of opinion here, but it boils down to what constitutes "excessive force" for a crime, an infraction of rules, violation of a "regulation." These all would incur a response from a LEO, but use of a baton or tasering a subject seems to be a bit excessive as a response, especially in the case of a simple rule infraction or violation of a regulation.

The simple fact of providing a near-lethal force option to the LEOs in the form of a taser gun is essentially wrong in and of itself.. In the old days, the LEO simply used training to physically subdue the subject.

Last year in Glenrock, WY. at the "Deer Creek Days" parade, an LEO tasered a 72 year old rancher who was driving an antique tractor in the parade and failed to comply with an order to turn (either left or right--I don't recall).

The LEO then tasered the driver who couldn't hear due to being hearing impaired! His hearing aid had been turned off due to the racket generated by the old engine.

The LEO is now on "administrative leave" pending dismissal from the police force.

Correction added in edit: He HAS been dismissed from the Police Department for excessive use of force.
originalpmac

Mountain climber
Anywhere I like
Sep 5, 2010 - 11:55am PT
me and some friends had a run in with LEO's in the Valley this spring. We just came down from a few days on LA Direct, got some pizza and some beers in Curry, thenwere heading out to find a spot to camp,. (unregistered, obviously) My friend swerved slightly near Lower Yosemite Falls and immediately Jacobs was on us.

Now the guy driving was not stoned, in fact, had not smoked pot in almost a year, but he is a total hippie, and his car fits the part. Jacobs said he smelled pot and was gonna search, bro says you don't have me consent, Jacobs doesn't care. F*#king as#@&%e nearly broke my fingers while searching me. Anyway, he finds a lot of something, bro gets ticket, we sleep in El Portal, only to return the they Valley in the AM.

Kinda rambling, but what I am trying to say is that those LEO's are c*#ks@ckers, p[lain and simple. I have seen them walk thru C4 armed, heavily, just to make there presence known. When we were sitting there with a mag-lite in our faces, I realized they would love it if you ran. Would relish the chance to chase you and taze you. And those Nazi fvcks are big and fit.

Of course the use of a taser was unwarranted. But I am sure those LEOs laughed it up afterward.
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Sep 5, 2010 - 12:37pm PT
on the other hand, i have personally had really good experiences with yosemite law enforcement.
i am sure there is something to what the guy up-thread from WY said about his experiences as well.

that said, it's not the average interaction that should set the bar, it's the worst.
tasers need to be a last resort rather than a first resort. an alternative to a bator or firearm, rather than a means for expediency or domination of a bad attitude.

recently there was a case in the south somewhere when the cops literally used a taser to try and get someone to answer a question about a 3rd party. there is a video on youtube of a guy at an A's game getting tasered and he's just refusing to get out of his seat.

enough is enough already.
jstan

climber
Sep 5, 2010 - 12:42pm PT
Orig's post has to be a troll. Loaded with attitude as the post is you can imagine what the response to the officer must have been like. And the post gives more than enough data to support an officer's decision reasonable cause existed. A fantastic job in troll construction. A work of art.

Even the lead in was a beaut. Several days on the Lost Arrow? Other than a tight rope expedition I can't imagine.

Absolutely great piece!
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Sep 5, 2010 - 12:52pm PT
i'm old, so wtf.

you guys tell me who the ranger was and i'll poor gas on him and torch him in the middle of camp 4 and we can roast marshmellows on the guys ass,

hell, ill do 10 years in rikers to prove my point,

i've had it with this punk, my blood is starting to boil,

no man will hold sway over his fellow humans, not in my world,
Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Sep 5, 2010 - 12:52pm PT
Original said...
Anyway, he finds a lot of something, bro gets ticket, we sleep in El Portal, only to return the they Valley in the AM.


and you are complaining?


Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Sep 5, 2010 - 12:56pm PT
whether he is or is not what you describe, that would have no impact on either the decision process of the officers at the game, or the criteria for use of a taser in a single scenario.


as i said before, it's not acceptable to essentially transfer the risk from the officer to the subject unless the taser is used as a means of last resort, period.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Sep 5, 2010 - 12:59pm PT
can you re write that so it actually makes sense?

or am i just stoned?

Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Sep 5, 2010 - 01:10pm PT
Matt says...
there is a video on youtube of a guy at an A's game getting tasered and he's just refusing to get out of his seat.

enough is enough already.

So are you suggesting they should have tried to lift him and carry him? And how many cops would need to be injured before a Taser was a good idea?
A smaller cop should have to physically fight some big dude first before they could resort to a Taser?
Its OK for cops to risk injury or worse by physically interacting with a combative subject, as long as they don't injure or cause any pain to the subject?
Are you kidding?
Cops are just regular people, not super ninja fighters. Many are woman.
Even the biggest badass cops I know, and some are huge guys with military background, still acknowledge the dangers of subduing a suspect.
You never know what someone will do to get away.


Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 5, 2010 - 01:19pm PT
locker,
I got an email from a certain cop who used to post here who thought I was being serious. LOL
Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Sep 5, 2010 - 01:22pm PT
talk about travel, what I am up to,where i am going, and why i am such a cool ass motherf*#ker.



Hahahahaha! Good post Riley.
grunter

Social climber
confusion
Sep 5, 2010 - 02:02pm PT
Riley, do you need attention, recognition, didn't mommy love you right. Your so full of yourself. Have you ever noticed how often you try to focus attention on yourself. My but you are important saving all those lives. Where do you live? Barstow. Rotflmao. Now that's a place to save the world from, center of the known universe. Dude. Does the phrase pompous self important ass ring any bells with you.
TripL7

Trad climber
san diego
Sep 5, 2010 - 02:20pm PT
fattrad- "...suspect that most would ultimately preferred to getting tased than getting hit with blunt instrument."

locker- "I'd take the TAZING any day."

I agree with the above statements generally speaking(not taking any stance in regards to Ammon).

But something obviously went wrong last night in Washington(state)!!

edit: Sorry, it was a VA man(Washington Post)...my bad.

Regardless, he died from a tazing. Evidently he was running around screaming in the middle of the night and his neighbors called the police who thought it was in the dudes, theirs(when he tried to tackle one of them)and the neighberhoods best interest to taze him.

He stopped breathing after one jolt of the gun, and resuscitation was futile.

grunter

Social climber
confusion
Sep 5, 2010 - 02:50pm PT
Yes, I am absolutely sure Barstow is a very important place. Just as my armpit is a very important place to me
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Sep 5, 2010 - 03:05pm PT
Are you kidding?

have you seen the clip?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwyKBvZ2vgQ

they tookonly 60 seconds to get from initial contact to full taser, and the guy never left his seat, what's more, you can see they made that decision only 20+ seconds in.

what's going on there is that the police are not even trying to de-escalate anything, they are using brute force instead of any other form of training. what has this guy done? been rude? fine, he's an ass, you can negotiate with him, you can use skills than can be trained and learned, the taser should be deployed when a subject cannot be reasoned with and is a clear and present danger, not before.

the guy was taserd for not being compliant upon initial contact.
i am against that, and no, i am not kidding.


you think this makes cops safer?
i say it makes a certain segment of the public feel like the cops are even more of a threat, and thus it puts cops in danger, it's a self fulfilling prophecy of sorts.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 5, 2010 - 03:06pm PT
grunter indeed
TripL7

Trad climber
san diego
Sep 5, 2010 - 04:36pm PT
Warbler!

Good eyes Kevin.

Yes, that's Beardman/Tommy Bruso, the Viet Nam vet.

The dude seems to have a penchant/inclination for dissident aggression.
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Sep 5, 2010 - 04:58pm PT
have you seen the clip?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwyKBvZ2vgQ

they tookonly 60 seconds to get from initial contact to full taser, and the guy never left his seat, what's more, you can see they made that decision only 20+ seconds in.

Yeah, but, that's Epic Beard Man.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_Beard_Man

Call the amber lamps...

Pop culture? Yikers...
WBraun

climber
Sep 5, 2010 - 08:16pm PT
All you wankers are light!

Only bad ass dudes get to get Tased!

It's a great honor to be in the "I got Tased Club".

Join now!!! Become bad ass.

And .... don't be late ......

cintune

climber
the Moon and Antarctica
Sep 5, 2010 - 08:29pm PT
Fall of Icarus - Henri Matisse

"Don't taze me, Helios!"
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Sep 5, 2010 - 09:42pm PT
this us great, Jack Cover, inventor of the taser, studied from the same guy who gave us another wonderful invention, the atomic bomb! yipee!

Jack Cover was born in New York City on April 6, 1920, and grew up in Chicago.[1] He earned a bachelor's degree and a doctorate in nuclear physics at the University of Chicago[1], studying under Enrico Fermi


Fermi is widely regarded as one of the leading scientists of the 20th century, highly accomplished in both theory and experiment.[1] Along with J. Robert Oppenheimer,[2] he is frequently referred to as "the father of the atomic bomb"

Thanks Jack!




PAUL SOUZA

Trad climber
Clovis, CA
Sep 5, 2010 - 09:58pm PT
The rationale of cops have a hard job, are under a lot of stress, etc. does not excuse the use of harsher methods to enforce the law. If you can't handle the job, then find a new one.

With the increase in use of tasers, from the videos I've seen, it seems that LEOs are getting lazier. Not in all cases, but seriously, if an LEO is unsure if they can subdue a person, call for backup, then take em down.

Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Sep 5, 2010 - 10:06pm PT
lets give jack a little taste of his own medicine,

here jack, try this out,

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Sep 5, 2010 - 10:06pm PT
Base, pretty fast when they come after you, yippie!


What about all your gear, thousands of dollars lost when they confiscate?
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Sep 5, 2010 - 10:52pm PT
hey there say, brokendownclimber.... as to what you posted, i just took a bit here, for referernce:

The LEO then tasered the driver who couldn't hear due to being hearing impaired! His hearing aid had been turned off due to the racket generated by the old engine.


thanks very kindly for sharing this.... these folks rarely get their story told, much farther than out of town....

or even IN town, in some cases....

others really do need to understand about this, too...

god bless...
:)
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 5, 2010 - 11:31pm PT
My mom was a student of Enrico Fermi at the UoC, and she couldn't tell you how a wheelbarrow worked.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Sep 6, 2010 - 12:04am PT