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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 1, 2005 - 03:20pm PT
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Brief Points.
(1) Referring to comments on the Trickster thread, Higgins although intellectually fierce and at times quietly competitive, has to be one of the funniest people to have ever climbed. Cerebral rigor does not preclude the ability to be insanely funny; I submit that it promotes it. He has proven this for all time (g).
(2) I think that the huge changes we see in climbing, especially in how FAs, and FFAs are done, should not be seen so much as big-assed destructive or nasty struggle of several schools of ethics battling it out in the captain’s tower, but as a natural sea-change in the fundamental meaning climbing is assigned, the purpose we give to and get from it through a half-century of modern living. Like schools of thought in art, philosophy, and so forth, changing as life requires. Three decades ago, we were always interested in supreme difficulty like nowadays, and of course reached all kinds of levels in such a pursuit. But we were also very spiritually driven and adventurous, and willing, daily I insist, to risk our lives---even TomH, although he tends to downplay how deadly some of his stuff was/is, being a true gentleman (g). Realize that we began when the Valley was virtually unclimbed. I started when there were two or three routes on El Cap. With a huge part of the scouting activity having concluded, spectacular difficulty is now really the point, frankly. Another zillionth ascent of the Wall of Somethingorother, is more a constructed sports outing than it is a wild flight into the unknown, all risked for “the useless” as Terray points out. But currently it is not “a mopping up operation” as RR erroneously and demeaningly told me back in 1972, but a whole new kind of climbing, and is taking place for other reasons. Gullich said, “climbing is a sport. …it is arrogant to claim that climbing is more than that” ---something that would never have been said in 1955-1972. And much of this new climbing is really really wonderful and important.
(3) What TomH, myself and others apparently want to assure is that fifty years of climbing not all be painted with the same brush. The current methods and protocol in severe rockclimbing are required for to reach the objectives of the sport as it is now configured. And 30 years ago, our purpose being really different in some regards, required us to work from very different plans mentioned above. Neither school of thought was in some form of deceit and neither school was wrong, given their respective goals. But for us older climbers, it is truly wierd to watch some of the sport climbers trying to climb old dangerous classics.
(4) RR wrote about 15-20 years ago or so, that sport climbing is “the child that wants to eat its mother”. A morbid statement only RR could have coined. And in this sense, we have now seen fudging of reports regarding how FA’s, FFA’s, and early ascents are done, and how older routes are maintained or re-constructed. And in general how some climbers report their ascents to each other. Discrepancies, although infuriating, are just petty, and usually nothing is won by this lying. And to be honest, we have always had some problems with climbers’ accounts. And always will. This is not an issue between and trad and sport climbers, but between people. I can remember getting really worked up about how Gripper, Freestone, and so forth were secretly “prepared”. I think I wasted some years being aggressively astonished and angry about it, but now see other possibilities of reacting.
(5) And perhaps my last issue here, is sustaining rights of a FA or FFA party upon the stone itself. God what a tough issue that is; it’s always coming up. I guess if someone went and bolted the crap out of the left side of the Hourglass, I would laugh really loudly but also know how much sport-fun the route would be now! It is public property, after all, and any claim I had on it would be merely abstract and even merely poetic. As in all things, you can’t stop people from shooting themselves in the foot or acting foolishly, and generally it takes too much energy to really defile a route, so most routes go unmolested, even if they are important and hideously high-risk. On a practical level, we don’t have authorities managing our actions to any thorough extent in this. But in the cases mentioned in prior threads about retro-bolted free routes, there is really nothing you can do but laugh at such people for their ignorance of what a FA or FFA is all about--- the thing that was originally created, however frightening or pointlessly dangerous it might seem. Imagine, with all the damned rock in the world, a party trying to “fix” someone else’s little route. As DMT mentioned, it is very classy to talk to the FA party about a problem, but none of this is “law”, just plain manners; it stems from an awareness that a FA or FFA is a permanent expression, locked in history, hopefully for centuries and that there is always something better to do besides editing other people's stuff. "Don't teach a pig to sing; it annoys the pig and wastes your time"
Cheers to all.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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as an apologist, peter, you sing a sweet song.
so sweet though that I'll pull retro bolts as my Sisyphusian ideal, as poetics writ real. I'll patch the holes to match the color of the rock. Then to preserve the onsight of adventure , maybe I should let someone else climb it. Maybe that's what we are left with; the first, or the feeling of first. With bolts there, hard to say someone else wasn't first doing something.
And to add a further futile effort I'll downgrade all climbs that are put up by, well, for lack of a better term or label, sport climbers that have no experience with grades established prior to 5.11 even existing.
I suppose this just all boils down to no point at all. Just mental masturbation on an electronic bbs. Or does it?
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Gramicci
Social climber
Ventura
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Good read Peter.
You say “with all the damned rock in the world” we are all led to believe there are plenty of good routes to go around. How often have we all heard someone whine “all the good lines are taken” the fact of the matter is great rocks to climb are a finite resource. Maybe most people don’t see this yet. Its like how we treat our environment, We all really don’t care because we pushed all the lines possible. Our sons and daughters will have fewer opportunities to grab up there claims to fame. At this rate our grandkids won’t be famous because “all the good lines are taken”. The sad thing is one those kids may have done a prematurely pushed route in a proud new style. Making bolt ladders out of free climbs will make sure that won't happen.
If you anyone thinks I’m wrong that lines are disappearing look at El Cap. What’s honestly left to do there without something like the wings of steel thing happening. I would love to start a thread “what’s the shortest El Cap route” This will be a bad analogy for all you wall climbers and I mean no disrespect but the smaller crags are paralleling this example.
“sport climbing is “the child that wants to eat its mother”” I love that comment
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I look back on the years from 1970 to now somewhat differently, as I was not "pioneer" during that time, but merely a "hobbyest". There is no question that the sport of climbing, in the US, has changed quite a bit. And the goals of the sport now as practiced by the new generation of climbers is quite different. The old school ways, however, are not lost, nor are they archaic. They form a vital part of the climbing sports which are currently practiced.
In terms of what is safe and what is not, I believe the "old school" thought was focused around preparation to be able to climb something and survive. People didn't venture out on projects that they weren't ready for, though judging that was not a science... when you climb some very long and hard offwidth with no protection then you either succeed or die, as John Bachar pointed out in another thread recently. The point being that you prepared to succeed.
The rebolting issue has to do with the emergence of other schools of climbing, e.g. sports climbing, where the preparation is typically more systematic, the danger of falling mitigated by placing bolts frequently. In some sense, no sport route would be denied anyone's attempt, no matter how prepared, and the danger of falling not much more than is faced in a gym. Even sport climbing has evolved from well protected, steep outside face climbing to the outdoors realization of the indoor world of the gym, the venue of much of modern climbing.
The different schools of climbing should try to find a way of coexisting... but that is probably a vain hope at best.
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WBraun
climber
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The “old school thought “ of climbing still ranks supreme and always will. It is the fundamental foundation that climbing rests upon.
As Ed said; “The different schools of climbing should try to find a way of coexisting ….”
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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I'm curious about your gripper and freestone comment. By 'prepared' do you mean that they were aided, and gear left in situ for the free lead, or something like that?
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Rap bolted routes are just invisible top ropes. No more, no less.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dogging up routes, trad or sport, is simply "aerial bouldering" because you are simply doing a series of short moves and bringing the "ground" up along with you as you go.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Invisible ropes?
Bringing the ground up with you?
You guys are a couple of comedians. Or did Juan hack your ST account?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Well, when you see someone get up an eight bolt route with eight rests what's the real [tecnical] distinction between hanging on the rope and standing on the ground as they start re-climbing after each rest. A literal distinction no doubt, but not an operative one...
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Tan Slacks
Trad climber
Joshua Tree
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What perfect timing for me and this thread. I too started climbing in the 70's. A romantic period for me to say the least. If it didn't fit in my car, I didn't own it, if I fell on a route, I sometimes never went back. Finding uncharted rock was surpreme, sharing it with your close friends was heaven. I was fortunate during those days to travel to Nepal and meet most of my idols and touch some of the mountains I had dreamed of. Can you imagine what Messner thinks about guiding Everest today? Climbing through Europe before the rap bolting years was amazing. Routes were kept secret for the most part. Topos... HA! they didn't exist. Exploration was the rule. I fought the 80's (tights, bolts and coke) very hard. I sold all my gear and joined the Peace Corps. Went to Africa and found a whole new uncharted range to climb. This was all pre-phones, internet and debit cards. Now to my point.. sorry it took me so long. I have been asked to speak at a Peace Corps recruitment thing in Feb. I decided to talk to some recent returnees. Do you know they all had cell phones and the internet while overseas! In MY day, you had to plan a trip just to make a POSSIBLE phone call. No one spoke english, so I learned the language of my village. Today you can just call home. Where's the adventure, the risk? see where I'm going?
It's just changed. I won't ruin it for the people to come, I'll just hang on to the changes I had and went through. Sure it's different today. I guess I'm just learning to let those climbers, volunteers of today believe in their risk or adventure with or without a helmet.
Man, I got lost somewhere here. One more thhing. I work on the rescue helicopter that responds in Joshua Tree. rescue work is friggin dangerous for those on the ground and in the air. Try and be prepared. I have lost too many friends climbing. I have lost more in the air.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Hmm, maybe I should try to come up with trite little sound bites to disparage types of climbing behavior I don't like.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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caughtinside, it isn't a matter of triteness or disparagement; it's a matter of truth in reporting and simply pointing out the obvious. I personally think one of the biggest mistakes in climbing, and one that led to a lot of animosity between trad and sport climbers in the early 80's, was that we continued to use the same rating system to describe both clean, ground up and dogged ascents. It would have been much better at the time if routes had been put up by dogging them had been rated something like Sp.12a, used the French system from the get go, or just about anything that would have conveyed the tactics used in the differing FA's. As far as I'm concerned anyone claiming a rap-bolted, dogged, and "pointed" FA is remotely in the same class of endeavor as a clean, ground up "trad" FA is just seriously deluded - mixing the two was a real lapse.
P.S. Do you mean trite and dismissive bites like in "trad climbing" or "adventure climbing"
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Having been a part of both sides of coin (trad & sport) I don't find either one superior to the other...just different. I enjoy both and what they have to offer. Climb how or what you want...just don't expect other to do the same.
Mike...I disagreed with your assestment of limited FA's. Certain areas may seem to be climbed out...but that is not alway the case. Each generation brings something new and fresh to the table. A new way of looking and seeing what other generations thought to impossible.
Healjye...for a smart guy you sure are stuck in strict dogma on your views of sport climbing. Glad Tommy Caldwell didn't stay limited to one view of climbing.
Healjye wrote: FA is remotely in the same class of endeavor as a clean, ground up "trad" FA is just seriously deluded - mixing the two was a real lapse.
Where were you in the 70's. People were dogging, hanging and falling on "trad' FA's. Supercrack, Grand Illusion (to name a few) ring a bell??
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Bob,
Again, for me they are two very, very different things. I can appreciate what goes into and results from each. I can also see the impact of gyms and sport climbing on the demographics of climbing. Those demographics impose some significant costs relative to footprint or impact. I'm admittedly a curmudgeon in the I don't like crowds, access problems, and cliffs littered with draws (and in the case of beautiful Eastern sandstone, covered with chalk for that matter). All of the above hassles are a direct result of the sheer numbers of the people who identify themselves as "climbers" today.
But in reality, the majority of them are a just tidal flow passing through, and they are 100% wholly supported by gyms and bolted routes. If gyms and bolted sport routes evaporated tomorrow then easily a full 70% of today's climbers wouldn't be climbers on Monday. Believe me, I didn't shed a tear when windsurfing collapsed from 1.5 mil back down to 450k participants in the early '90s and I likewise would have no problem with climbing seeing a similar loss of popular support. But twenty years later gyms are firmly rooted suburban cultural fixtures acting like engines or pumps behind a commercialized version of climbing that survives on that tidal flow.
A big difference between today's demographics and those past is that in the '70s - prior to gyms and sport - the ratios of top/competent/novice climbers looked more on the order of (for example) 1 : 10,000 : 500. That's because trad climbing presented a significantly high bar to entry that you had to get past pretty fast which most folks didn't abandoning climbing for other pursuits. Today, it looks something more like 1 : 50,000 : 750,000 and those novice climbers can linger indefinitely in that state for years supported by gyms and bolted lines. Providing outdoor resources for today's relatively enormous base of novice climbers causes most of the hassles we encounter today. I for one also don't buy the "strength in numbers" argument as we wouldn't have all the access and impact related issues if the numbers weren't there in the first place.
Call me cynical, selfish, and a curmudgeon - I freely admit it - I don't like climbing next to birthday parties, other societal [interest] subgroups that have 'discovered' climbing, or masses of suburbanites that think "safe", risk-free climbing is an pop culture, entertainment entitlement on par with Six Flags and that someone should always be performing the fine community service of rap bolting new and inspiring routes for them.
That wasn't too blunt was it...?
P.S. In the '70s we were climbing in So. Ill, Eldo, and the Gunks and everywhere I went it was tight, totally clean, ground up, no dogging ethic with very few exceptions - that's how my FA's were then and that's how they are now (though admittedly they're getting much further and further apart). My last FA was a five pitch 5.11c(R) a year ago that featured free climbing at times on 4-5 consecutive Crack'N Ups and small Lowe balls. Given it isn't my home crag I retro'd a couple of pins into those spots in keeping with local traditions and ethics. The route just saw a second ascent about a month ago.
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WBraun
climber
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Why traditional climbing still ranks Supreme and remains the solid foundation that climbing is built on.
It is the “natural” progression of the accession compared to the unnatural progression from top down. Knowledge “descends” and non traditional climbing is trying to artificially "ascend".
Irony at it’s finest .........
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Also, I totally appreciate the accomplishments of Caldwell, Rodden, Trotter, et al (particularly Trotter). It's just that today there is an enormous, broad, high impact pyramid of climbers underneath each of them...
Werner,
I don't now about "foundation". These days I think gyms and sport climbing can claim that turf. Caldwell's recent sends make me think, however, that you are right that trad climbing is still what [our top] climbers ultimately strive for and ascend to...
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Healyje wrote: don't now about "foundation". These days I think gyms and sport climbing can claim that turf. Caldwell's recent sends make me think, however, that trad climbing is still what [our top] climbers ultimately strive for and ascend to...
Tommy Caldwell wouldn't be doing what he is doing without a solid foundation of sport,bouldering and trad climbing.
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WBraun
climber
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Yes Bob, very nicely said.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Bob, I have no problem whatsoever acknowledging that fact/reality. The synergies are obvious and logical. My complaint is it's just that today the Tommy's and Beth's emerge from a very high impact demographic base.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Things change...people were climbing in nail boots and using forty-foot pieces of rope a hundred years ago.
The sport is always evolving...depending on your perpective it good, bad or it just is! What hasn't changed it the spirt of some climbers to jump out of the circle, leave so called traditions behind and show us what is possible when the mind is open to change.
Good OP Peter.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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I can remember in '76 going down to El Gran Trono (in Baja California) with Hugh Burton. The year before I'd climbed a wall down there with Mike Lechlinski and noticed out left a huge (1,800 feet) shield like face but couldn't see a route from where we were. Burton and I went down there and basically sight unseen climbed that face with one bivy at the base and one hamock bivy on the wall, then we drove back into the US in Hugh's thrashed Ford Fairlane. It was Thanksgiving Day. That was an incredible adventure for us, though we didn't really think of it that way at the time. That's just how you went about your bid-ness back then. No back up, high commitment and hard climbing--a little poorly protected 5.10 and several pitches of aid that even Hugh called A4.
I mention this because I would never have experienced such an adventure lest I'd been long schooled in that, the prevailing style of the day.
My hat's off to the remarkable things folks are doing today, but if I had the choice to trade experiences like I just jotted out for being at the top of the heap in today's sport climbing world--well, that's a no brainer. I'll take Baja every time. I couldn't have been happier to have climbed full time when I did, and that's the most anyone can ask of their first passion. How can I begrudge what's going on these days when in my mind we had it so much better?
JL
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Bob,
"The sport is always evolving...."
Again, I have basically no problem with the technical evolution of the sport - I have some serious problems with the [commercialized] explosion in the sheer numbers of "climbers" we have to supply bolted resources to. Maybe someone here in sports marketing who is more knowledgeable in the actual demographics could contrast the stats on the number of folks that identify themselves as "climbers" today versus 30 years ago but I suspect it's a staggeringly large number.
John,
My father started flying in bi-planes and retired a UAL 747 Captain. He often talks about he wouldn't fly at all if he were starting out today with regulations, the FAA, etc. Flying was a real adventure and a special experience early on versus what it was by the time he retired. By then, while he enjoyed the equipment and flying, flight crews had virtually no interaction with the passengers who were not all that interesting anymore anyway and he felt it was more about just "driving".
We climbed obliviously in Gill's wake down in the the hollows of Southern Illinois pretty much making it up as best we could as we went. Everything we touched was an FA and we were blown away every time we ventured out into the "real" climbing world of Eldo and the Gunks - climbing in those places seemed pretty damn socially structured and turfed out even in the mid-70s compared to our raggedy little band of lost stoners. Like you and my father before me, I wouldn't trade a single one of those clueless early experiences for the very best of what can be had today...
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Nate D
Trad climber
San Francisco
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"Finding uncharted rock was surpreme, sharing it with your close friends was heaven."
Ahh, how true indeed... and still the case for this humble wanderer.
Now, I for one, wasn't around in the 60's and 70's, but why lament when you can just keep moving forward... and up?
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Cheers to Tommy and Beth on their supremely difficult sends - but those El Cap sends would not have possible without legions of mad bolters preceding them. They are not First Ascents - they are First free Ascents. The point being that they are not " traditional climbs " nor are they traditonal climbers. Traditional climbers do first ascents not first descents. The Holy Grail of the Old School was to put all of your accumulated training,experience and knowledge in to the grand objective - A NEW ROUTE -ground up of course.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Yep, Tommy and Beth rapped in from above to work those cruxes.
And didn't trotter retrobolt an aid line in Squamish so it would go free?
Although I understand the frustration with a larger number of climbers today, just remember that it's the older generation who started the 'gymbification' if you will. Those guys wanted to make a living from climbing, and so they did.
Finally, I've always thought the whole 'trad purity' thing was a bit hypocritical, since just about every crack I've climbed has been nailed. Every crack I've done has been manufactured!
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Caughtinside wrote: Although I understand the frustration with a larger number of climbers today, just remember that it's the older generation who started the 'gymbification' if you will. Those guys wanted to make a living from climbing, and so they did.
Finally, I've always thought the whole 'trad purity' thing was a bit hypocritical, since just about every crack I've climbed has been nailed. Every crack I've done has been manufactured!
It is a little hypocritical. Joe has a puritian view of it. I am a little more in tune to the reality of it. As Jim Erickson once said...mostly all great climbs have been with dubious tactics (for the time).
I have a wonderful time climbing back in the 70's and continue to have great times now.
Joe--isn't top-roping starting from the top down? And if you fall on a top rope...bringing the ground up to you??
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Bob,
Our ethics were strictly LNT-based which was certainly a difference between us and others in the mid-70s for sure, particularly on West Coast granite as opposed to our basically unclimbed hollows. Both coasts had a long history of climbing that clean climbing ethic emerged from, in the Midwest there wasn't outside of Devil's Lake. That on your West Coast granite it was a messy and at times incomplete transition to clean climbimg is understandable as is the fact that all the cracks got nailed - duh, just what today do you think the impetus for nuts and hexs was? Nailed cracks...
And denigrating Eldo ethics by taking one of Jim's comments out of context and slathering it over the entire decade and all climbing areas is really lowering the bar on revisionist history in eldo and most other areas. If you are claiming all the great routes in Eldo and the Gunks put up in the '70s were done with dubious tactics go ahead and say it and I'll step aside and let those folks speak for themselves - but that's a gross distortion of reality that lot's of folks love to bandy about - that it never really happened. Who knows, maybe he was talking sh#t about routes in the Valley at the time, I wasn't there for that conversation...
But I was sitting on the top of the NW corner of the Bastille once with my feet over the edge lighting a joint after a my first-ever roped solo (up the Bastille Crack) when Dave Brashears' hand appeared more or less right next to me while he and Steve were putting up "Rain". He couldn't figure out the very last sequence and took a very pounding and bloody 60 footer right before my eyes - stunning for a boy from the hollows. Steve, who was out of sight around the corner yelled "Davey, are you all right?" and Dave said he was, and then Wunsch asked, "are you going to do it again?" I still recall Brashears' response clear as a bell today: "sure, now that I know that piece will hold..." And he came back up and took the same bloody fall again. That's the ethic I witnessed on all my trips to Eldo and the Gunks. Again, claims that all the great routes in either place used dubious tactics is a joke - never having been to the Valley in those days I'll leave your history with clean climbing to you guys here.
As for our doing a lot of routes on top rope - we did. Our sandstone had lots of places where you can't do it on pro and we weren't going to bolt under any, repeat any, circumstances and in those years we placed one pin on a one-A1-move roof. LNT was our deal to the point of deliberately not using chalk. Lots of those routes were completely safe because of it, some weren't. We did several roofs on top rope that were completely desperate taking repeated 22 foot horizontal semi-decking falls ("Fiddler on the Roof"), long 60' rides out through trees that did break one guy's back ("Fear of Flying"), and yet another that was too close to the road we took 25 rides each into a 10' high by 15' long pile of wet leaves ("Leaves of the Failing Faith"). Here's a shot of "Fiddler":
http://photos.rockclimbing.com/photos//469/46917.jpg
What really, is the deal with bolting up one pitch routes? If bolting is all about focusing on the difficulty and movement then why fck around with superfluous clipping? Our take on it then was if you weren't placing pro on it why the fck bother - clipping them is posing. I suppose that makes us some of the earliest [clean] sport climbers. The best of those routes that we put up in '76 and called an 5.11 is now rated between a 5.12b and a 5.13a depending on who you talk to. Trust me, we did lots of hairball routes on lead as well, I've done my share of stacking hexs in pegmatite, and taken 30 footers on to #3 Crack'N Ups free climbing on them so I do have a clue in both realms. But the bottom line for me is I've never placed a bolt for protection to-date and likely never will.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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healyje - How long have you had such low self-esteem? :)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Trad - Climbing was certainly no cure for that, but we did what we could back in the hollows in the deep shadow of all you real climbers on both coasts...
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Nice story, Healve
I take different approaches for different kinds of climbing, I generally try to onsight stuff, but when I don’t make it, the type of climb dictates my further actions. On a trad climb (esp one with no shenanigans in it’s FA history) I will generally get off it the most expedient way (rap and pull, hang and go etc.) but if it’s a cool climb I will wait and come back rather than work the moves. If it’s sport climb I’m much more likely to work the moves, more like training.
If I’d had to onsight everything, I’d never have had any fun at Cave Rock! Though eventually I could redpoint a bunch of ‘roots’, there.
But, first time I climbed Hotline, I suspected that I had got tension at the crux, It bothered me till I finally went back.
dingus made a great point a while back about the diffuseness of climbers and styles.
Sometimes though, you end up climbing with people with different ideas.Last night I climbed, inside, with one of my longest term climbing partners, (we wailed pins on lead, for free pro when we were preteens, when dinosaurs walked the earth). Back to last night, after a bunch of warm ups we moved to ‘the steep’ wall. I climbed a mid-range 11 and when it was his turn he fell off early on, bailed and decided to go for the climb next to it, said it looked ‘better,’ a 12b/c!
“I dunno, man, I haven’t climbed a 12c in a while...”
“I don’t think I’ve ever climbed a 12c,” he said and gave me a weird look. Half an hour, and many hangs and hoists later he was on top. He seemed to have as much fun as if he’d been climbing.
My turn, I opted for 12a and fell off on the last move. I’ll try it again if I get back there before they change the route, after all it’s only a gym climb.
I’ve had tons of fun on sport climbs, FA's, FFA's and repeats, but they definitely blend together more than a lot of the trad routes; say “Meatgrinder,” and I have something in mind, but I’ll never remember the name of that 11b right of Gorgeous.
To be fair, a lot of Sport Climbs stand out, as well.
BTW, happy 50th today, Jerry!
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Some good thoughts there Jaybro.
And how could you forget Knucko's Pride of the North? hah!
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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C'mon Knucko?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I'm not saying there aren't righteous sport routes on rock that wasn't protectable in any other way - I'm just saying it isn't my thing. And I'm also pointing out the combination of gyms and bolted routes is sustaining a demographic that is causing access and impact problems. Personally, the principal rationale I see for bolting one pitch routes is protecting the top environment and at the hollow we climbed in that was basically destroyed, albiet by the combination of climbers, sport rappellers, and kegger partiers (easy walkup). In hindsight I wish we had installed top anchors there.
In fact, my partner and I were just back at the first ever So. Ill. climbers reunion and two days we climbed at Jackson Falls which is primarily bolted and I was impressed out how well it was done and how much that had saved the top environment. All the routes had sported "sporty" clips and their choices for developing routes, given there is no easy way back to the top once you're down in the hollow, was walk away from it or bolt. There are no draws or chains hanging all over and nothing looked remotely close to overbolted so on the whole I think they have done as good a job as can possibly be done when developing a sport area.
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James
Social climber
My Subconcious
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Many people downplay the difficulty of a first ascent. There is a significant amount of knowledge required. Climbing in unknown terrain requires a certain ability, awareness of protection, and how to "find the line", making first ascents rather daunting even for the nuevo elite.
Climbing is largely a collection of people stroking their egos, which is made easier when people can relate to the bar. First ascents aren't as much a part of the climbing culture. The easy thing is in.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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"First ascents aren't as much a part of the climbing culture. The easy thing is in. "
Hunh? Please elaborate.
are you saying that lots of folks can climb all their climbing days without doing FA's, and still have rewarding climbing careers? Could be. Otherwise, please advise.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Healjye wrote: And denigrating Eldo ethics by taking one of Jim's comments out of context and slathering it over the entire decade and all climbing areas is really lowering the bar on revisionist history in eldo and most other areas. If you are claiming all the great routes in Eldo and the Gunks put up in the '70s were done with dubious tactics go ahead and say it and I'll step aside and let those folks speak for themselves - but that's a gross distortion of reality that lot's of folks love to bandy about - that it never really happened. Who knows, maybe he was talking sh#t about routes in the Valley at the time, I wasn't there for that conversation...
Looks like that went right over your head. He (Jim) or I did not say all routes.
Rent the movie "On the Rock" Steve Wunsch use "dubious tactics" on Supercrack and Kloeberdanz. Jim Collins used dubious tactics on Genesis. Tony Y used "dubious tactics' on Grand Illusion. Do you see were I am going with this??
As to distorting reality...I don't think so. I was there...in the Gunks and Eldo. I did my first 5.12 in 1978 and continue to climb fairly hard. I have followed the history of climbing and take it for what it is...not what I want it to be.
Also fyi...Jim loves clipping bolts.
Aslo FYI...I have led NED.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Bob, you were there no doubt, so you tell me, are your examples exceptions or the norms? I'm relating what we did and what we saw and heard wherever we went. Our FAs were all done clean, ground up, no dogging. Everyone we knew and met climbed by the same ethic. And we didn't hear of more than a handful of FAs contested in either place for chipping, dogging, or pre-placing gear back then. No doubt these things happened, but again, are you saying that was the norm? Or were those the exceptions? Say take the list of top 100 climbs in Eldo and the Gunks from the '70s, what percent of those do you think were put up with contested or dubious tactics?
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WBraun
climber
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In the beginning there were the pioneers. After them came the developers, strip malls, golf coarses, climbing gyms :-)
What are ya gona do about it man?
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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healyje, you seem to want to stop the history/progression at an arbitrary point in time. Climbing develops to a point, you and your friends start doing routes, and it's like you just want 'progress' to cease right there, and we all do the same thing for the rest of time.
You seem to never miss an opportunity to tell us all what you did, and just how great it was. Well, I came into climbing a little later than you, and I like what's happened (for the most part) and I'm also excited by new ideas and technology.
I remember reading a bit about Yaniro and his route Scirocco in the Needles. A mostly unprotectable arete, and he put it up by hanging from aid while drilling the bolts. I couldn't believe this was a revolutionary tactic, just 20 years ago.
But hell, maybe I'm just as guilty. I like music from when I was in high school and college, and think most new stuff stinks. Damn whippersnappers!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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caughtinside, the times I've brought up what I or my partners did has typically been in response to someone questioning my background as Bob did earlier in this thread.
And again, just for the record, I have no problem per se with the technical evolution of climbing, but with the impact and access problems brought about by the very large population of climbers that are supported wholly be gyms and bolted routes. Period. I didn't even have an issue with sport climbers dogging on .13 and up routes given back then it was clear they were never going to go any other way. I did have a problem with the fact that as soon as that genie was out of the bottle the whole world was dogging up both trad and sport 5.7's claiming to have "climbed" the route.
I'm not blind, and even though I still climb my way, I don't have a problem with people climbing their own way so long as they aren't a danger to access in some way or another. But I also can't simply dismiss off hand that we have access issues and crowds because of what must be something like 100 fold increase in the demographics (sports marketeers, data?) due to the commercialization of climbing.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
boulder, co
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I never questions your background...just your better-than-thou way of looking at climbing.
I don't care if someone claims an ascent of 5.7 or whatever route. Feck...if they are having fun...more power to them.
I also don't think climbing is worth dying over. It's a fecking sport. I much rather have Kevin Bein, Derek Hersey etc... romping around the crag, smiling and having fun.
Worried about crowds. Come hang out with me...I'll take you to a number of spots were you rarely see anyone. Let's do a route in the Black Canyon this spring.
Caught wrote: But hell, maybe I'm just as guilty. I like music from when I was in high school and college, and think most new stuff stinks. Damn whippersnappers!
There a lot of good music out there...you have to look for it. Beck, Wilco, Ryan Adams, Colin Hay, Nick Drake, and so on. Send me your address and I mail you one of son CD's.
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WBraun
climber
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Bob
What happened to Kevin Bein?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Werner...He died on the Matterhorn in 1988. I miss him dearly. A wonderful person and friend.
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WBraun
climber
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Yes he was Bob, and so was Derek. Is Barbra still around?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
boulder, co
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She is in upstate NY and has a young child.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Watch out. The surest sign of getting old and out of touch is being judgmental about the younger generation.
Our older generation judged us and our climbing too. Darn topos, and cheating cams! It sure was more bold to climb with soft pitons and hemp rope!
The world turns. The younger generation is going to have to inherit the world that we polluted and depleted faster than any generation in history. That'll make em old school again and should make us humble too.
PEace
Karl
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Jghedge wrote: If you've been climbing since the 70's and can look at the last 20 years with an unbiased eye, and have no ax to grind, you can clearly see that much more has been gained that was (admittedly) lost by the advent of sport climbing.
I been climbing since 1971 and seen a lot of stuff go down. What Tommy Caldwell did (nose $ freerider) is way beyond anything I can comprehend.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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I seem to notice that today a certain amount of confusion has crept into the FA game: For a variety of reasons, some (but certainly not all)climbers seem to believe that they have freed a route that they have hung on. If you rap bolt, hang dog, cheat like hell all over the place, it still is never a first FA until you've started at the bottom, climbed the thing without weighting a piece of protection (bolt, cam, or in situ pin), and clipped into the anchors at the top. Personally, I don't really care what dubious methods are employed (yes, even rapping in from above, oh god!), as long as the result is a real FA. How is someone else going to come along and repeat the thing if it never really was climbed in the first place? If this sort of confusion becomes general, we better all switch to painting in oils or composing poetry. At least, an artist is supposed to be sincere about what he'd doing.
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Free is a relative term - invisible top rope,hanging belays,chipped holds,preplaced gear,top down inspection,non continuous ascent - the list goes on. Now a solo is indisputable - or is it?
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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So is a "red point" if you don't lie about it, Dude!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Bob,
"I never questioned your background....
Your TR questions above sounded like it to me, hence the response. Never made it to BC, but I climbed at Crow Hill while in NH for a short while (way pre-Rumney) and developed such a high regard for Ed Webster I always wanted to get down there, but it never seemed to work out. I also love the idea of being done when you get to the top. Don't know what the plan is for next year yet, but I do have a brother in CS now and I'm overdue for a visit down that way. Would love to tag along with you up anything. Still trying to get down to the Valley for that matter.
Ah, NED, Adam's project - I think he was calling it "Nothing But Lunges" or something similar. He told me about it, but I've never been back to Eldo since. I forgot who scooped it out from under them. If you liked that I've got a circa '76 project for you. On the last day I was there a partner and I [briefly] attempted a project inside the cave on lead, but could only get so far without adding a top rope as well and couldn't convince anyone we weren't simply tripping hard. The line we tried goes up the back left of the cave (up thru the pigeon nest) and then attempts to cross the very top of the roof to join the route that comes out the right side of the cave. We burned quite a few laying on the floor working out the moves and were actually lamenting the lack of acid at the time.
It looks completely and insanely impossible until you stare at it a long, long time, but with a 180 degree walking rotation to the right at the top of the cave on underclings I still think it would go. We gave it a couple of goes and got a few moves out from the nest with some ugly results. We likely never would have gotten it even with more time and someone to man a top rope, but I suspect it would be a real interesting problem for someone of Sharma or Wilder's ilk. Our planned "Red Point", had we crossed the roof, would have been to do it with just the top rope with someone stopping traffic on the trail outside because you'd really come ripping out of the entrance if you came off at the top of the roof. We were thinking "Jonah's Surprise" for a name.
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kevin Fosburg
Sport climber
park city,ut
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I like this original post very much. Thanks Peter for your thoughtful reflections and perspective. One can see that you have retained the true spirit of climbing.
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| Messages 1 - 54 of total 54 in this topic |
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