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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2005 - 09:58am PT
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I guess you didn't get it Raj.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2005 - 10:55am PT
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Raj, that's like the pot calling the kettle black.
Have you ever been paid for sex? Nov 17, 2005
TO: Where Will He Mouth Off Next? Nov 17 2005
Light Beer or Dark Beer: An Endless Battle - Nov 16 2005
The Physiology of LEB - Nov 20 2005
What Are You? China, Clay, Paper, or Sh-t? Nov 23 2005
Just some examples.
But to answer your question, I know the BBC article isn't news as such, but it is interesting.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 24, 2005 - 12:00pm PT
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Raj said
"LEB,
I could care less about your plate system. It was just an example of how trolls are often created by categorization. In fact, the plate system probably causes problems with your attitude towards others (just a guess, I could be wrong)."
So you're saying that you care enough about the plate system that you might possibly care less about it under different circumstances?
I'm not sure how much I care about this plate issue myself. I'll go climbing and give it some thought. (But not too much, I could think less about this problem.)
Peace
karl
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2005 - 12:21pm PT
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Raj, relax, this thread was meant to be a joke. What, did you just flunk an exam at MIT or something? Bad hair day? Chill out dude.
And in the thread title I had the past tense of 'was' but changed it to 'is' for obvious reasons of the joke. Anyway, if you want to be a pedant, go ahead.
And if you think this thread is useless, why respond to it? why even read it? Geek comes to mind.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2005 - 12:57pm PT
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Raj, that's cool
However, a quick google led me to a couple of sites on von Braun, but I'll paste the link to the wikipedia article on him, though I don't always trust what I read on wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_Von_Braun
It states that he was in the SS.
I don't know much about the guy, perhaps you know more since he was a physicist and you are studying in a science field (I think, aren't you). But I notice that both the links you put on this thread were from a NASA website.
From the Beeb article: "All of these men were cleared to work for the US, their alleged crimes covered up and their backgrounds bleached by a military which saw winning the Cold War, and not upholding justice, as its first priority."
So don't you think that perhaps, just perhaps, that NASA has covered up his background or altered certain 'facts'?
Anyway, let's not waste anymore time on what was to be a joke and a play on words for ST's Werner.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Nov 24, 2005 - 01:00pm PT
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"They used real cannons? In a crowded Concert hall? Who said classical music is boring?" Calvin.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Nov 24, 2005 - 03:07pm PT
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Just one more piece of evidence to confirm my pet theory that the US cut a deal with the Nazis at the end of WWII that involved going light on them in exchange for advanced technology, maybe even for gas diffusion extraction of fissile material to beef up the limited supply of enriched Uranium for the Manhattan Project. Dream on!
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Nov 24, 2005 - 03:11pm PT
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welcome to 1949, fellas.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2005 - 05:57pm PT
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Raj, this is from the wikipedia article.
After the war, von Braun claimed he was asked to join the party and pressured to join the SS. In May 1940 he was personally awarded an honorary SS rank by Himmler only after conferring with colleagues who agreed that to turn it down would infuriate Himmler and incur his wrath. He began as an Untersturmführer (Second Lieutenant) and was promoted three times by Himmler, the last time in June 1943 to SS-Sturmbannführer (SS Major).
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Loom
climber
167 stinking feet above sea level : (
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Nov 24, 2005 - 09:15pm PT
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"He only developed a technology that was created for the Nazi power. He did not know that his rockets were going to be used against a civilian population. Even if he did, he had absolutely no choice whether or not to create the rockets unless he wanted to be killed or kill himself."
What a load of crap. Hey RamJet go back to working on your fembot.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Nov 24, 2005 - 09:58pm PT
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I thought Werner was working on the A9 multi-stage New York rocket, too? I think there were even some launch tests in early '45. He must have realized that the technology he was developing was going to be used to drop a "dirty" bomb on the Big Apple. This wasn't just an exercise in aerodynamic theory for him was it? He must have really wanted Germany to win the war, but, realizing that he didn't want to be captured by the Ivans, saw that it was in his own best interest to go over to the Americans. Faced with those kinds of choices, can't say I blame him too much.
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Loom
climber
167 stinking feet above sea level : (
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Nov 24, 2005 - 10:01pm PT
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I just got back from Yos and I saw Werner there. Werner Braun lives in Yosemite. He's an electronics wizard. He works for the NPS, but he's never been an officer, and he never knowingly or unwittingly has taken part in their misdeeds, actually he has saved countless lives.
Wehrner Von Braun on the other hand was a scientist in Hitler's Germany. I don't know his mind, but his actions make him seem like the stereotypical scientist without a conscience; an opportunistic pragmatist.
You should fall on your light saber before you help Vader build a DeathStar; even if you are curious to see if you could really make it work.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Nov 24, 2005 - 10:03pm PT
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Drifting back to the music hijack,the problem with the break up of the soviet Union (maybe the Only, problem)is that they stopped using the old soviet anthem when russians and other ex-soviets win gold medals at the olympics. That may be my Favorite peice of orchestral music ever. Possibly above 1812 (especially if they hold the cannons, ugh! condolences LEB)
Another thing, there are two CD's out there called "Classical Music for Metalheads." I've never liked heavy metal, but these compelations have the kind of Classical Music I like best. It's all Beethoven, Wagner, Sibelius, Tchaikovsky, Rimsky Korsikoff, etc. Has a photo of a stout, singing Valkerie on the cover, Jaybro says, check it out!
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Loom
climber
167 stinking feet above sea level : (
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Nov 24, 2005 - 10:53pm PT
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Klaus? Chris is banging Mineral's truck AND a 16 y.o.?!?!? Well, at least he isn't on this site with us masturbators.
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Apocalypsenow
Trad climber
Cali
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Nov 24, 2005 - 10:56pm PT
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great photo......
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Loom
climber
167 stinking feet above sea level : (
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Nov 24, 2005 - 11:04pm PT
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He could get some ribs blown off if he isn't careful; I heard Minerals was going machine-gunning.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Nov 24, 2005 - 11:17pm PT
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I was just watching a recently de-classified film of a V2 launch from the Hague during the winter of 1944-45 and was amazed how close the protocols and procedures conformed to the sequence we are so familiar with from watching rocket launches at Cape Kennedy. Point for point. Whatever else Werner did, he sure made some mighty fine rockets while defining the methodology that matured into the space age. To paraphrase the Irish novelist George Moore: "What do I care if 20,000 slaves die under the lash, as long as we get to the moon."
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 24, 2005 - 11:19pm PT
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Unfortunately they never ever got to the moon.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Straight Outta Squamton
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Nov 24, 2005 - 11:21pm PT
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Anyone need another drink? It's thanksgiving, isn't it?
Let's give thanks where it's most due––to the beloved bottle!
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Apocalypsenow
Trad climber
Cali
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Nov 24, 2005 - 11:31pm PT
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cheers my friend...thanks...
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Straight Outta Squamton
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Nov 25, 2005 - 12:15am PT
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Rajmit wrote:
“Unless one of your relatives died in the Holocaust, you should shut the f-ck up! “
Lovesgasoline responds with the best comeback I've seen in 10 years:
Why do I need have had relatives die in the Holocaust to call you BS?
In any case, I didn’t have one of my relatives die in the Holocaust. I had numerous relatives murdered in the Holocaust. In fact, my father was a slave in the same camp your beloved Werhner Braun drew slaves from to work on his endearing rocket project. My father’s mother and father were butchered, his twin brothers were butchered, most of his relatives killed, and he himself has numerous bullet wounds from a successful (but nearly lethal) escape from a cattle car that was transporting him to a death camp.
Rajmit –– time to give it up. You've been soundly thrashed in this debate.
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Loom
climber
167 stinking feet above sea level : (
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Nov 25, 2005 - 12:27am PT
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"Chris is a great guy for putting up (and funding) this site and, accordingly, I don't like to see him put down."
Lois, isn't that Rajmit's argument?
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Nov 25, 2005 - 12:31am PT
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Evan Williams is NOT swill.
It tastes like Wild Turkey, looks like Jack Daniels,
and is priced like Jim Beam.
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Loom
climber
167 stinking feet above sea level : (
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Nov 25, 2005 - 12:51am PT
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Lois,
I've been conflicted, ambivalent, whatever, for awhile. I don't appreciate his "contributions" to the climbing community, so I haven't had a problem with leaving turds in his sandbox. But I have to admit (though I hate doing so) that I sometimes enjoy being part of this community; I did prefer the old ones at the deli, caf, etc.
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Loom
climber
167 stinking feet above sea level : (
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Nov 25, 2005 - 01:12am PT
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hoo boy
Lois, it's climbing related. I don't want to get into all this; it's pointless. Chris is beloved for ASCA, for his site, his guides, his occasional enthusiastic posts, his climbing; he can do no wrong. I'm losing my erection.
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Loom
climber
167 stinking feet above sea level : (
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Nov 25, 2005 - 01:34am PT
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No Lois.
arrgh.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 25, 2005 - 07:57am PT
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Wow, is that Lee Marvin (smoking a pipe) on the right a couple of rows back from Kennedy?
Raj, you should calm down, you’re getting a bit emotional.
“Unless one of your relatives died in the Holocaust, you should shut the f-ck up!”
May I suggest that before you tell somebody to shut the f-ck up, that perhaps you ask them first if they had relatives who suffered in the Holocaust.
And anyway, Lovegasoline is correct, you don’t have to have personal ties with a tragic event in order to comment on it.
“However, the title is wrong because Wernher von Braun was never in the military for any country…. Also, von Braun was never in the military. He was a private contractor with the Nazi rocket program.”
So first you are saying that he wasn’t in the SS, but then in a later statement (below) you acknowledge that he was. And you are telling me to get my facts right? LOL.
“He worked with Jewish engineers in America, and they felt no discomfort working next to his side. They also knew he was part of the SS.
Raj, why did you delete your first post on this thread? The one that said ‘no sh-it Sherlock. That is not new news’ or something to that effect.
I have to say that given your behavior on this thread, I have to wonder how you got into MIT.
Lovegasoline, very interesting (and sad) tale about your father.
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mellpat
Big Wall climber
Sweden
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Nov 25, 2005 - 08:12am PT
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Why this fascination with the SS in Germany 60-70 years ago? I suppose being an elected member to that honorary guard to Hitler was more like being elected for membership to Rotary in our days.
European history is really complicated and stereotypes are not much help. At a recent visit to Kiev, the capital of Ukraine, I noticed that the street stands offered a large variety of Hitler statuettes (did not buy any). I think you would serve time ("Incitement to racial hatred") if you were trying to sell those in Germany or Sweden. But Stalin was definitely a more vicious ruler for ethnic Ukrainians than Hitler, so it figures. I guess.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Nov 25, 2005 - 08:42am PT
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mellpat
Big Wall climber
Sweden
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Nov 25, 2005 - 08:57am PT
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Yeahh, that stupid fish would know how to avoid a trolling bait. But we like images of trolls in Scandinavia. Ever heard of the Troll Wall? http://www.bigwalls.net/climb/Troll.html
"In Scandinavian troll folklore the forest creatures are morally ambiguous, and don't constantly represent evil"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Troll
Incidentally, Wernher von Braun's, his colleagues and leadership fascination with huge rockets like V-2 was a good thing for the Allies. Had those large resources been diverted to small rockets (guided surface-to-air missiles, antitank missiles) or anything else of real military value, Nazi Germany would have lasted a few months longer, with "interesting" implications ...
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Nov 26, 2005 - 12:13am PT
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Lois - Are you talking to me? LOL.
I do not know where I got it. But you can find out.
(This is a secret that only a few people on ST have figured out, so please erase this post after reading it. I know you might not believe this, but many have posted various "where is this" quizzes, with the info contained clearly in the picture name. Especially do not tell them or they will misdirect us in the future.)
Right click on the image and click properties. The URL will be listed in the properties page.
TIG. (or Trad for short)
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Nov 26, 2005 - 12:16am PT
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LEB, btw. When you do that {url=...} thing, you have to put a quote at the beginning and the end of the url. {img} is different. There you just put the URL between the beginning tag and the ending tag {/img}. See the Help for examples.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Nov 26, 2005 - 12:40am PT
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Click "Help", (It is below the window when you are posting). The url and img syntaxes are different. The {url="..."} identifies where the thing is. The stuff between the end of the beginning tag and the beginning of the end tag, is what gets underlined. For your first exercise, fix the your post above. Refer to the help page if necessary.
As far as why the images exist elsewhere ... space could be one reason, but I think it is just because they did not spend the bucks to add an image upload option to the site. The downside to this is many image links fail to work for things like bandwidth or permission restrictions. The upside is that many of the images are already stored on someones existing photo site.
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Ouch!
climber
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Nov 26, 2005 - 01:31am PT
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Northern Mexico
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Nov 26, 2005 - 01:50am PT
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I have read many books on WVB. When he started working on rockets for the military he had no idea slave labor would be used to build them. He knew the rockets were to be weapons.
WVB worked on the R and D. He was not responsible for manufacturing. WVB was always thinking of the moon.
He was one of the greatest mangers of all time.
V2's killed a few thousand. My dad heard the first one land a few miles from his home.
Was Oppie a war criminal.
Juan
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Nov 26, 2005 - 08:08am PT
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Oh I think I understand what you are saying, now. I can't do what you suggested however (it would be a good exercise) because I downloaded the image to my hard disk a long time ago and don't remember the url.
If it were "only on your hard drive", the image would not show up here. And Raj showed an example for the setting up link to url in this thread. BTW. When you click on help, notice also that you can click on "View Original Message in a Separate Window".
I am writing a multiple choice exam on physical assessment concepts right now and dying of boredom in the process.
Just make all the answers c). Use stuff from ST for a,b,d. You will be amazed at how many wrong answers you will get. And it will save you time grading so you can get back to things you like. ;)
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Nov 26, 2005 - 08:14am PT
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Credibility Gap - Wernher is not third from the left in that photo! Who is third from the left? Wernher is in the picture.
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mellpat
Big Wall climber
Sweden
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Nov 26, 2005 - 09:17am PT
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Dr. Kurt Debus is third from the left. Robert McNamara or Wernher von Braun (with glasses) to the right?
http://grin.hq.nasa.gov/IMAGES/SMALL/GPN-2000-000616.jpg
Photo of Debus and von Braun in the link above.
I was in Chamonix, France in July 1969 with three climbing friends. We took a day off from the climbing and listened to the moon landing on the car radio.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Nov 26, 2005 - 09:43am PT
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McNamara is second from right. Out of focus to his right, may be Dean Rusk - not sure on that.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Nov 26, 2005 - 02:16pm PT
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Mellpat from Sweden asks: "Why this fascination with the SS in Germany 60-70 years ago?"
I think it's because US world hegemony evolved out of a synthesis of Nazi high-tech (ballistic missiles, stealth bombers, turbo-jets, nerve gas, etc.) and Jewish physics (i.e. Oppie, Los Alamos, and the Bomb)and even today we're still trying to wrestle with the moral and ethical paradoxes implicit in that fusion.
Werner's bargain with the devil is really our bargain, too. What price world empire?
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Hootervillian
climber
the Ponderosa, NV
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Nov 26, 2005 - 02:20pm PT
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I think it's because US world hegemony evolved out of a synthesis of Nazi high-tech (ballistic missiles, stealth bombers, turbo-jets, nerve gas, etc.) and Jewish physics (i.e. Oppie, Los Alamos, and the Bomb)and even today we're still trying to wrestle with the moral and ethical paradoxes implicit in that fusion.
it's a good thing for US we won.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Nov 26, 2005 - 02:23pm PT
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Gather round while I sing you of Wernher von Braun
A man whose allegiance is ruled by expedience
Call him a Nazi, he won't even frown
"Ha, Nazi schmazi," says Wernher von Braun
Don't say that he's hypocritical
Say rather that he's apolitical
"Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down
That's not my department," says Wernher von Braun
Some have harsh words for this man of renown
But some think our attitude should be one of gratitude
Like the widows and cripples in old London town
Who owe their large pensions to Wernher von Braun
You too may be a big hero
Once you've learned to count backwards to zero
"In German oder English I know how to count down
Und I'm learning Chinese," says Wernher von Braun
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Nov 26, 2005 - 02:27pm PT
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so we can all pay our respects to the ex-Nazi
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Nov 26, 2005 - 03:55pm PT
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Beggin' your pardon, Hottervillian: the US didn't "win" WWII. Normandy aside, the Ivans beat Herman at Stalingrad, Kursk, and, finally, Berlin. We were well placed to come in an pick up the pieces (Werner, ballistic missiles, Horten radar evading bombers, etc). Somebody always loses a war, but nobody really wins. We inherited the next stage in the mess of world history. It definitely ain't over yet!
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Hootervillian
climber
the Ponderosa, NV
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Nov 26, 2005 - 04:00pm PT
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cuz it was drippin with sarcasm...
me and the new-federalist have the who won? we won? what won? debate fortnightly.
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