Mosque to be built at ground zero

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Messages 1 - 905 of total 905 in this topic
Ricardo Cabeza

climber
All Over.
Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 13, 2010 - 06:59pm PT
I have no issues with it, but it seems many do.

Is it racism?

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2010/06/06/a_mosque_at_ground_zero/
crøtch

climber
Jul 13, 2010 - 07:04pm PT
And a mosque in Temecula, CA faces opposition.

http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_15500767
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 13, 2010 - 07:19pm PT
It's unclear whether the site is at the buildings destroyed in the attacks in 2001 and their aftermath, or simply nearby. Particularly if the site is actually at 'ground zero', perhaps an interfaith chapel and centre would be more appropriate. One accepting of all religions, a place to remember that people of all faiths died, and a statement to the world of American tolerance, freedom and inclusiveness.

If the site is not at 'ground zero', then what is appropriate seems very context and motivation sensitive, and there isn't enough information to comment.
Gene

Social climber
Jul 13, 2010 - 07:23pm PT
I think it is fine for anyone to worship wherever they can.

As far as the Temecula mosque is concerned, I hardly see why the Rev. Rench objects to a house of worship in his neighborhood. His assertion that the mosque would be too large for the site is somewhat less than the truth. The proposed mosque has a building to land coverage ratio of only 14%. That's light, even for places of worship. A similar land use in terms of building coverage ratio and parking needs is retail, which typically runs about 25% to 40% depending on site size.

EDIT:
If it was in fact part of the new Freedom Towers I would be outraged.


If it were a portion of the complex why would you be outraged?
Ricardo Cabeza

climber
All Over.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 13, 2010 - 07:31pm PT
Don't you think it would be the essence of who we are as Americans to allow freedom of religion?

The average American muslim is as disgusted by what happened as we are.

nutjob

Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
Jul 13, 2010 - 07:41pm PT
My first reaction was that allowing a Mosque nearby is a good symbol of religious tolerance. It shows America's intent to remain open despite attackers who claim religion as the banner for their negative behavior.

On that level, I very much like the ideals of America and separation of church and state. In terms of folks who would see it as a sort of Islamic "victory" like a flag being raised on enemy soil... well we can't control folks who choose to see the world in a combative way.

To the extent that it is intended as a symbol to Islamic radicals that America is not "the enemy," it may seem like a trite symbol given the decades of obnoxious behavior of the U.S. in the mid-east.

But hey, we can't change the past. All we can do is deal with the present and make a better future.

I say build the mosque, and American haters, give it up. This is not about Islam against America.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jul 13, 2010 - 07:53pm PT
Who is funding all these new mosques??? Especially in high profile places?

And it ain't racism to be opposed to a mosque run by a radical. Look at the guy behind the mosque....follow the money.

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 13, 2010 - 07:54pm PT
Ya know, there are grade schools in this country who dont even teach about 911 becuase "they dont want to bring up ill feelings". True story.
Please name those schools, including location. It seems possible that there is a private, parochial Muslim elementary school somewhere that does what you say, but even that seems improbable.
Ricardo Cabeza

climber
All Over.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 13, 2010 - 07:56pm PT
C'mon Ron, I see it as a beacon of acceptance and equality. As someone else said, the extremists see what they want to see. If we didn't allow it, they'd be up in arms about the supresion (sp) of their chosen religion.

We're talking America here, not the Middle East. Americans should be able to worship there, be it Hare Krishna, Jew, Catholic, Right Wing Christian, whatever...

It is a place with a horrible tragedy associated with it. Let people of all religions go there to pray, it might just bring some harmony, which is in short supply these days.

Peace-
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jul 13, 2010 - 08:02pm PT
It is a place with a horrible tragedy associated with it. Let people of all religions go there to pray, it might just bring some harmony, which is in short supply these days.

Peace-

Ricardo, as long as they're all peaceful religions with EQUAL representation in that space, sure, that's fine. Isn't it weird that a mosque is the first to apply for that particular locale?

I know...you'll say they're just trying to "reach out" and "mend the wounds", but look up the dude behind it....hold on, I'll find it.
Ricardo Cabeza

climber
All Over.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 13, 2010 - 08:11pm PT
Fattrad, for once I agree with you.

However, isn't it common practice for christians to convert others? I've been told more than once that I'm going to hell if I die a nonbeliever.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jul 13, 2010 - 08:11pm PT

here's the link the Imam wants to hide....

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/05/911-mosque-imam-lying-to-the-american-people.html
Gene

Social climber
Jul 13, 2010 - 08:13pm PT
jihadwatch.org

Yeah. That's the ticket. Come on Bluey. Don't make a parody of your self.

g
apogee

climber
Jul 13, 2010 - 08:13pm PT
Is this thread intended as a magnet for all muslim-hating (fearing) ST'ers?

If so, it's working....a couple of the most muslim-paranoid have been sucked right in....good work!
Ricardo Cabeza

climber
All Over.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 13, 2010 - 08:17pm PT
Blue,
I am dumber for having read that. Nice work finding the hate groups out there though.

High five!
Gene

Social climber
Jul 13, 2010 - 08:19pm PT
Our country needs to continue to have an open door policy, but only if you adhere to our values.

Does this include to whom we worship and offer prayers?

g
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jul 13, 2010 - 08:34pm PT
Gene and Ricardo, you're the fools, but not directly. It's a lack of honesty in our press to actually cover ALL opinions and statements.

Would you not agree?

Do you dispute the JihadWatch quotes as being false? Untrue? Fabricated?

Yet, you're probably be really anxious to jump on a Christian saying that Muslims need to convert to be saved, right?

I disagree with both notions. Seek God and seek a true life. Don't hate the others.....

Kinda weak to attack my source without a valid counter argument....Am I really wrong?
Mtnmun

Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
Jul 13, 2010 - 08:37pm PT
This country is founded on Freedom of Religion, Speech, etc. The Muslim community did not attack America, a fundamentalist fraction of idiots attacked us. Lumping them in with the Muslim faith is narrow minded and not what our Constitution is founded on.
Gene

Social climber
Jul 13, 2010 - 08:42pm PT
The most important and precious thing I have is to think how I think, to believe in what I hold true, and to be able to communicate it as I see fit, with the obvious caveat that I have no right to kill, harm or otherwise limit others in the same endeavor.

How can anyone support denying the same to others who travel a different road? When you limit the rights of others, you limit your own rights. Do you really want the dominant culture to define what, when, where and how you can worship or who you can hang with? To assert that some sort of monolithic Islam wants to put its boot on your neck is absurd.

g
Ricardo Cabeza

climber
All Over.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 13, 2010 - 08:45pm PT
Blue,
I'm no fool. Reading the Jihadwatch link was really annoying. It's obvious that there is spin on every quote that was in bold.

And for full disclosure, I was raised Roman Catholic, was an altar boy (f you, no snide comments), confirmed, the works. However, I'm as spiritual as they come these days, just agnostic.

I just can't get the us vs them thing when we're talking about Americans. Yes, a minority of muslims hate Americans, but a minority of Americans hate muslims. We're talking about good, hard working American people who have a religion different than ours, yet has the same base ethics as western religion.

I'm not talking extremists, I'm talking about our fellow Americans.

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Arid-zona
Jul 13, 2010 - 08:52pm PT
Ricardo said:
However, isn't it common practice for christians to convert others? I've been told more than once that I'm going to hell if I die a nonbeliever.


There is a difference between "you'll go to hell" and "I will send you to hell." I think we should encourage a Mosque there. 9/11 wasn't an attack by agents of Islam. It was an attack by a bunch of as#@&%es who were Muslim. Supporting a mosque there shows that we can tell the difference (though I'm sure many Americans cannot).
Mtnmun

Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
Jul 13, 2010 - 09:08pm PT
I agree DMT.
Ricardo Cabeza

climber
All Over.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 13, 2010 - 09:11pm PT
Seriously, what Dingus said.
Gene

Social climber
Jul 13, 2010 - 09:13pm PT
Agreed. If we can't end hate, let's work to minimize it.

g
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jul 13, 2010 - 09:22pm PT
As usually, DMT is on it.
A mosque would be a good idea, keep things in perspective. Just because a group of crazies claim allegience to a particular philosophy, religion, club, or other granfaloon, does not mean they speak for it.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 13, 2010 - 09:37pm PT
Americans buying Saudi oil?
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jul 13, 2010 - 09:42pm PT
throw in a tomb for bin laden while your at it.

apogee

climber
Jul 13, 2010 - 11:23pm PT
"Supporting a mosque there shows that we can tell the difference (though I'm sure many Americans cannot)."

The ignorance you suggest is demonstrated perfectly in this thread by the usual neo-racist, neo-bigoted, religi-tards who are quite convinced that anything related to Islam or Muslim is bad and must be extinguished immediately, as this is certainly the will of their Lord.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 13, 2010 - 11:32pm PT
Canada is a net exporter of both oil and natural gas. We're the largest supplier of both to the US. Most of it is in northeast BC, Alberta, Saskatchewan, and off Newfoundland. Getting it out, especially from the tar sands in northeast Alberta, is by all accounts a not very environmentally friendly business, even by oil standards.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jul 13, 2010 - 11:35pm PT
I think a mosque at ground zero is an excellent idea. I'd be down for a temple for each of the major religions, all opening to a central circle with the entryway to the circle following along a reflection pool from Ground Zero to the temples.

Of course this is logical for Americans. But will it come to fruition???

Who is funding the mosque with 'unfair' foreign funds? Can Catholics, Buddhists, HIndus, and Christians afford that? Can they compete? Would they want to?

I don't think anybody challenged the source of money for that mosque. Just disqualifying the only people who study this....


In short, Dingus, it's a nice thought, but it ain't gonna happen. Too many people are shouted down for confronting Islam and so many feel free to calll Christians 'haters'.

Political correctness gone f*#king insane!!!!
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 13, 2010 - 11:42pm PT
They don't say what brand of Islam that is. Will they be bringing the full range of Islamic idea here? For instance: as is commonly practiced by Wahhabi Sunnis - will they be killing any members who renounce the religion or whom claim that other followers of different styles of Islam (for instance: the followers of Ali, the Shias) are apostates and should be executed? Cause I could see that getting to be a hot button at some time. Or how about the first time they stone an adulteress to death in Times Square? Or how about the time they caught an American woman in Iran wearing a dress. She was publicly whipped. Turns out that only prostitutes dress like that, and prostitution is illegal and punishable by a public whipping. Could start to get interesting in NYC for women who wear dresses when the religious police catch them. Maybe they'll start out slow and work their way up to this.

Clash of civilizations is an apt name:-)
nature

climber
Tucson, AZ
Jul 13, 2010 - 11:49pm PT
sure... why not.

it's not like they had anything to do with it.


A shrine to shrub on the other hand..... wouldn't really make much sense....
apogee

climber
Jul 13, 2010 - 11:51pm PT
couchmaster, as every Uh-merri-kin knows (esp. the aforementioned ones here at ST), any form of Islam is the same, and should be eradicated like a case of fungus on your feet. If you don't, they will be kicking in your doors and raping your poodle before you know it.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jul 13, 2010 - 11:56pm PT
any form of Islam is the same, and should be eradicated like a case of fungus on your feet.

I don't think Ron, and I know I ever said that!

There are some obvious other problems though, and you'd be a fool to deny Saudi influence in mosque development. What would that tell you?

Seeing as Whabbism is a major problem?

EDIT:
Doug, are you still obsessed with G.W>?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jul 13, 2010 - 11:59pm PT
Kiss you Poodle goodbye, Tami......sorry.....

I never your poodle, but I'm sure it was nice.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jul 14, 2010 - 12:16am PT
there were many types of people in those towers,

i am sure a few of them would not mind a mosque,

just pretend it is for the Islamic people in the towers,

funny if some insurgent from new jersey blew up the mosque,

now that you mention it, i bet that thing gets vandalised and grafittied to hell by the angry new yorkers,

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jul 14, 2010 - 12:18am PT
Geez....I even f*#ked up a great joke, Tami....

sorry, bad form. I'm pretty disappointed in myself. Seriously. I was so close I ain't going back to edit it.

Loser!!!!!

(but ya got the joke, right?)
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jul 14, 2010 - 12:20am PT
Maybe we should leave the sarcasm and jokes to Tami.
salad

climber
Escondido
Jul 14, 2010 - 12:23am PT
what a gesture it would be if those behind the building of this mosque would simply look for another site, or least make it known that have looked elsewhere and this the only suitible site in x amount of miles.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jul 14, 2010 - 12:25am PT
quit being logical, Salad!!!!
Cpt0bvi0u5

Trad climber
Merced CA
Jul 14, 2010 - 12:52am PT
It's 600ft away I don't see what the issue is. In this country people are allowed to worship any god(s) that they want. And just because the terrorist are of "Islamic" decent it seems as if everyone is throwing all the Muslims in the same boat as the terrorists which isn't right. And if we persecute a group of people for worshiping what they want that is just stooping down to a level that the terrorists would want. My 2 cents.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jul 14, 2010 - 12:59am PT
I've been.

Not a lot of Churches....
Cpt0bvi0u5

Trad climber
Merced CA
Jul 14, 2010 - 01:20am PT
I've been and it was a fantastic experience
WBraun

climber
Jul 14, 2010 - 01:27am PT
Show of hands, who's been and travel in a Muslim Country

I've been too ....

and saw the beatings also.

They seem to treat the women like sh'it at times.
R.B.

Trad climber
Land of the Volcanic Mud Flow
Jul 14, 2010 - 01:43am PT
I am all for the 72 (female please) virgins, except I want to be alive to enjoy them -- any volunteers? (hehe)

however, it is really in extremely poor taste and is bad judgement to think that the American people (the majority that is) would be OK with placing a mosque nearby within half the height of the former twin towers that the muslim exteme-o-terrorists purposefully destroyed.

If they are trying to win the "good samaratan" award ... they got a long way to go in my book.

PS- I don't care what religion you worship ... just keep it to yourself and live by the primary commandment "thou shall not murder" and that is exactly what those 19 chicken sh*t rat basterds did on Sept 11, 2001.

I will never forget, and you better not too!
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Tahoe City/Talmont , CA
Jul 14, 2010 - 09:08am PT
I will never forget, and you better not too!


Seems that statement is the driving force behind the hatred on both sides.
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Tahoe City/Talmont , CA
Jul 14, 2010 - 10:22am PT
Ron,

My neighbor has a pot-bellied pig as a pet.
Should she hate Jews?
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jul 14, 2010 - 10:33am PT
Coz, I lived in the Middle East for four years. I know many great Muslims.

Your (insert time frame) in Jordan made you an expert on international affairs?

For me, it would all depend on the TRUE motivation of the builders, and that's a hard thing to know. Do they really want to step away from radicalism and toward tolerance? Then build away.
If it's some kind of secret 9/11 celebration club, then send them packing.
I would think some serious investigating could reveal such motives.

Here's an interesting article about a couple truly "tolerant" Muslim Americans that say no to the project.
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2010/06/06/a_mosque_at_ground_zero/


That's right Ron, let's hate all Muslims. That should clear things up. Extremism on either side never helps. Even republicans should recognize that. A few hundred thousand dead civilians in the Middle East isn't enough pay back for you?
cupton

climber
Where the past and future meet
Jul 14, 2010 - 11:08am PT
Hey y'all

I think a bunch of you are reacting without knowing or wanting to know any of the facts regarding this center.

Taken from the Cordoba Institute website (folks buiding the center):
Cordoba House is a Muslim-led project which will build a world-class facility that promotes tolerance, reflecting the rich diversity of New York City. The center will be community-driven, serving as a platform for inter-community gatherings and cooperation at all levels, providing a space for all New Yorkers to enjoy.

This proposed project is about promoting integration, tolerance of difference and community cohesion through arts and culture. Cordoba House will provide a place where individuals, regardless of their backgrounds, will find a center of learning, art and culture; and most importantly, a center guided by Islamic values in their truest form - compassion, generosity, and respect for all.

And I think Michael Bloomberg put it pretty well:
“If somebody wants to build a religious house of worship, they should do it and we shouldn’t be in the business of picking which religions can and which religions can’t. I think it’s fair to say if somebody was going to try to on that piece of property build a church or a synagogue, nobody would be yelling and screaming. And the fact of the matter is that Muslims have a right to do it too. What is great about America and particularly New York is we welcome everybody and I just- you know, if we are so afraid of something like this, what does it say about us? Democracy is stronger than this. You know, the ability to practice your religion is the- was one of the real reasons America was founded. And for us to say no is just, I think, not appropriate is a nice way to phrase it.”


Some of the knee jerk reactions on this site to Islam are quite insane and are very disturbing for me to read. I am an American currently living in a Muslim country and have only experienced honesty and kindness from my neighbors and folks I meet on the street. There are extremists and radicals in every religion including Christianity, Judaism and Islam but this does not mean everyone!! They (Muslims) have many questions about America and are desperately trying to understand us yet we are quick to lump an entire religion as blood thirsty backward barbarians. There is a huge misunderstanding and in my opinion this project is a step in the correct direction towards a greater appreciation of our two different cultures.

"We must learn to live together as brothers, or we are going to perish together as fools."
-MLK
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 14, 2010 - 11:09am PT
Ron you live in a vacuum and are climbing the Everest of intollerance and ignorance.


If you are going to continue to make such outrageous disparaging comments about Islam and the Quo-ran. Then you should be willing to quote chapter and verse rather than parrot Glen Beck's lunacy.


Did you know that the car bomb was a development of the Zionist Jews in Palestine. The engaged in all manner of terrorist activities. From targeted assassinations of high ranking British officials to blowing up hotels killing scores of innocent westerners. Yep, the car bomb is a Jewish invention!

And... there are passages in the Bible that legitimize sex with children for money as long as they are older than four years of age. And how about that poor kid in wyoming? Beaten, tied to a fence and left to die by some good ol Amercan redneck christians.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jul 14, 2010 - 11:30am PT
cupton...gimme a break!

You don't see any bias there???
cupton

climber
Where the past and future meet
Jul 14, 2010 - 11:59am PT
Ummm Blue...



I think YOU have a huge bias.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jul 14, 2010 - 12:46pm PT
Ummm Blue...



I think YOU have a huge bias.

Ya think?

Do you think the Saudis would let me build a Catholic church near Mecca if I told them it was because I wanted to promote peace and cultural understanding?

Screw 'em!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 14, 2010 - 12:51pm PT
Interesting that they call themselves 'Cordoba House'.
I guess they still have issues with being run out of Spain.

edit: I hadn't noticed that the good Fatty already noted this irony. :-)
apogee

climber
Jul 14, 2010 - 12:53pm PT
Look out!

They're everywhere!

Run for the mountains!

MMMMMMMMMUUUUUUSSSSSSLLLLLLIIIIIIMMMMMMMSSSSSS!!!!!!!!111111666699

They're in your town.

They're in your neighborhood.

They're in your HOUSE!

They're petting your poodle! (nice doggy)

Get the gun and kill 'em all, even the ones that just look muslim!
Gene

Social climber
Jul 14, 2010 - 01:02pm PT
The Cordoba reference is to a period about 800 years ago when that city was about the only place Muslims, Christians and Jews could coexist. Not a Utopia by any means, but something rare in world history.

g
dirtbag

climber
Jul 14, 2010 - 01:02pm PT
I like the collective guilt idea.

They are all guilty, or guilty enough, so let's just round em up and imprison them.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 14, 2010 - 01:59pm PT
Ron you have quoted nothing but Glen Beck weeping points. Your real time understanding of Islam and the Quo-ran is non existent.
You have no idea the debt western society owes to the Eastern world. During the oh so lovely and progressive dark ages in Europe it was the Arabic scholars who reverently cared for and maintained the religious papers, documents and gospels of all the regional religions. If it were not for the Arab scholars translating the biblical texts into greek all you good christians would still be trapped in the dark ages.
You probably won't eat freedom fries either.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 14, 2010 - 02:25pm PT
Jeff, how much of the Zionist curriculum would you like me to post up?


No Ron you have not. You have regurgitated out of context and deliberately misrepresentation-al FOX news paraphrasing.

You know so little and fear so much.


And yes I have lived, peacefully, in an Arabic/Muslim nation. And this during the Iran hostage affair. No fear, no worries.
My family has a dynamic and ancient connection to the Middle East.
For my self personally, I am spiritually independent. Closer to being a Quaker than anything else.

I have no stake in any organized religion. For the most part I consider them all counterproductive regressive and repressive corporate control systems. But I think it is simplistic (right up your alley) myopic and imbecilic to condemn a whole faith with such a sloppy white wash.
For example; I can without hesitation or fear of being called anti-Semitic, condemn the extremists of the Zionist crusade. But I can not nor would I condemn the Hebrew faith or Jews in General. I can condemn the deplorable actions of the Westboro (unaffiliated) Baptist church without the need to make a blanket condemnation of the Christian faith. Radicals and extremist exist in every culture, faith and race. How many blankets do you need to feel safe?

















ps; Ron, do you know what spell check does?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 14, 2010 - 02:54pm PT
Yes Jeff. Right here in Boulder, the People's Republic and Kumbaya capital of the world.
Synagogue teaching fear, hate and retribution against Arabs to children.

To be clear, they are fringe groups that are fairly shunned by other more tolerant synagogues. And I give them much credit for it. It is a bit of what you often ask for; moderate elements condemning radical ones. But you your self should know the pain and risk associated with a Jew speaking up against another or to advocate tolerance towards Palestinians.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 14, 2010 - 03:00pm PT
Jeff, if you are serious contact me directly through ST emails.
I will provide you what ever you think you might need to action.
But I hope you understand my preference not to do so too publicly.

Unlike Ron you have a deeper awareness. Though you often choose to not display it.
Roger Breedlove

climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
Jul 14, 2010 - 05:26pm PT
Area; Muslim population; Percent of area's pop. that is Muslim; Percent of Muslim's total population.


Asia-Pacific 972,537,000 24.1% 61.9%
Middle East-North Africa 315,322,000 91.2% 20.1%
Sub-Saharan Africa 240,632,000 30.1% 15.3%
Europe 38,112,000 5.2% 2.4%
Americas: North and South 4,596,000 0.5% 0.3%
World Total 1,571,198,000 22.9% 100%

A very loud complaint against the US is that its anti-terrorism is really anti-Muslim.

I wonder where that idea comes from?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 14, 2010 - 05:32pm PT
Looking at the bright side, if they build a mosque right at ground zero, perhaps radical Muslims won't attack that location any more. They do seem to have monomania on the subject, but maybe wouldn't stoop to destroying a mosque. Although maybe it will depend on whether said radicals approve of the sect that builds the mosque - it sounds like the Cordoba people are quite moderate. And some Christian brands/cults seem quite capable of destroying churches of other denominations, e.g. arson of 'black' churches in the south. And the 9/11 attackers killed some Muslims without being concerned. So maybe I'm being optimistic.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 14, 2010 - 05:32pm PT
Philo said: "And... there are passages in the Bible that legitimize sex with children for money as long as they are older than four years of age. And how about that poor kid in wyoming? Beaten, tied to a fence and left to die by some good ol Amercan redneck christians. "

Few would be stupid enough to toss this comparison out there? Seriously? Buddy, in many Islamic countries, the rule of law is the rule of the Koran as interpreted by holy scholars. It isn't an isolated instance of 2 idiots opposed to a gay guy and breaking the law. It's about the entire justice system doing it to every single person. In Iran, they routinely hang gays. Every damn one they catch! Quick trials by "holy men" followed by executions and let God sort it out.
God says this is OK. So do the members of that community. Yes, lets bring that over here. Next time you get around a Christian worship group and hear them vehemently debate a single passage of what God intend with those words, please reconsider if you want them also directly running your political, personal and moral life like in many middle eastern countries who have never heard of John Locke or Jean Jacques Rousseau and if they had seen those 2 fine gentlemen, they would have stoned or beheaded them as heretics for freely volunteering their viewpoints and philosophy's. The Catholic church has not had this kind of bullshit shtick for hundreds of years. No comparison. Strict Islamic tolerance is limited to the size of your dick or the extent the Koran allows. This isn't all sects or countries of course. You can't generalize as there can be radically divergent thoughts within even a single country. (witness Turkey or Pakistan for example) Bottom line, no rule of written laws for them outside of the ones God gave them in the 600's. As I said: In Iran, any woman who wears a dress is a prostitute and prostitutes get publicly whipped. Adultery by a woman is often penalized by death by sword or stoning. Sh#t, did you know that women often get stoned to death for being raped? BEING RAPED! This is common in multiple Islamic ruled countries. They bury them so they can't move and then kill them slowly with rocks. Slowly. Do an internet search. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1081214/Somali-girl-pleaded-mercy-Islamists-stoned-death-raped.html WTF?
http://executions-leeds01-02.blogspot.com/2007/10/executions-in-iran.html

I say, let us build this center in NYC, and also a similar multicultural worship center in Mecca and Medina as well so that Sunnis can consider others views. If it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander.
Roger Breedlove

climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
Jul 14, 2010 - 05:58pm PT
The legal systems in 21st century Muslim majority states can be classified as follows.

Sharia in the secular Muslim states:

Muslim countries such as Mali, Kazakhstan and Turkey (which is under pressure from religious political parties) have declared themselves to be secular. Here, religious interference in state affairs, law and politics is prohibited. In these Muslim countries, as well as the secular West, the role of Sharia is limited to personal and family matters.

Muslim states with blended sources of law:

Muslim countries including Pakistan, Indonesia, Afghanistan, Egypt, Nigeria, Sudan, Morocco and Malaysia have legal systems strongly influenced by Sharia, but also cede ultimate authority to their constitutions and the rule of law. Some of these countries are democratic and some are authoritarian. In these countries, politicians and jurists make law, rather than religious scholars. Most of these countries have modernized their laws and now have legal systems with significant differences when compared to classical Sharia.

Muslim states using classical Sharia:

Saudi Arabia and some of the Gulf states do not have constitutions or legislatures. Their rulers have limited authority to change laws, since they are based on Sharia as it is interpreted by their religious scholars. Iran shares some of these characteristics, but also has a parliament that legislates in a manner consistent with Sharia.

dirtbag

climber
Jul 14, 2010 - 09:23pm PT
I really don't give a sh#t.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Arid-zona
Jul 14, 2010 - 10:54pm PT
bluering said
Do you think the Saudis would let me build a Catholic church near Mecca if I told them it was because I wanted to promote peace and cultural understanding?

Screw 'em!


So wait. You think they are wrong and yet you also think that we should do exactly what they do? You obviously hold American ideals close to your heart.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Arid-zona
Jul 14, 2010 - 11:08pm PT
Ron, maybe you should work on your basic literacy skills before you attempt logic traps. You also don't really seem to "get" what spin actually is.
cupton

climber
Where the past and future meet
Jul 15, 2010 - 10:03am PT
Peaceful interfaith discussion group

philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 15, 2010 - 12:03pm PT
Jeff, don't be hasty. I have three kids (one in preparation for college) and a full time business. I will email back when it is just a little higher on my priority list. Patience.
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Jul 15, 2010 - 01:11pm PT
I'd firmly agree that no radical Islam should be taught near the 9/11 site. But not all Islam is radical. Christians have had their share of extremists over the years, as have Jews and pretty much every other religion. Certainly the Old Testament contains no shortage of thing that I believe pretty much everyone here would find objectionable (including approval of slavery and subjugation of women). I just heard a story on the news about an evangelical pastor in Africa that had been pushing for the death penalty for homosexuals and prison for those who did not expose homosexuality they knew about.

If this mosque is truly going to preach tolerance, then this is probably a good place to do it, and in my view, is a shot in the face to extremists of all flavors. If they are not tolerant, it shouldn't be that hard to figure that out a few years down the road and show them for the frauds they are.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jul 15, 2010 - 01:45pm PT
Good Christian boys every one.

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 15, 2010 - 02:45pm PT
Most disturbing.

I imagine that the memorial will also include the names and likenesses of people of that negroid persuasion. The ones that honor and glorify such people as Muhammed Ali, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, and all other manner of negroid heroes of the muslim faith, a strong group in America.

Keep them blacks away from 911, we 'Mericans need to keep pure!

NOT!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 15, 2010 - 02:47pm PT
They've now discovered the well-preserved remains of an 18th century wooden ship, about 10 m below ground level on the WTC excavation site.
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/14/18th-century-ship-found-at-trade-center-site/?hpw
Gene

Social climber
Jul 15, 2010 - 03:17pm PT
Me too.
Gene

Social climber
Jul 15, 2010 - 07:46pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjGJPPRD3u0

http://www.goptrust.com/index.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjS0Novt3X4&feature=related
Joseph Goebbels lives. Be careful.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jul 15, 2010 - 07:59pm PT
Nice pic Lolli!

I've been to Israel, Turkey, and Egypt. They're great places too, a lot of history that you can 'feel' when you're there.

When we were in Israel though, one of the tour busses of our cruise-ship was hit by shrapnel from a mortar fired by the peaceful Palestinians. Shattered all the windows and the bus driver was treated for glass in the face.

Pretty interesting culture over there though. Mostly kind.
Gene

Social climber
Jul 15, 2010 - 08:37pm PT
Well that last vid tells the exact same thing I get from guys in ten other countries...

Hyperbole or fact? I have to ask because of your other 'misrepresentations" on this forum.

g
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Tahoe City/Talmont , CA
Jul 15, 2010 - 09:44pm PT
No sadly that is their opinions as well. I commuicate regurlarly with guys from the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, England etc .

..,, and they are all probably skin heads.
Gene

Social climber
Jul 15, 2010 - 09:52pm PT
Ron,

Help me out. I'm trying to understand your point of view. Is your revulsion regarding the proposed mosque because you are afraid it will be a spawning ground for terrorists, or is it because you feel that Muslims have a debt to pay this nation and by being in the neighborhood of the twin towers they are mocking that debt, or what? What is it that you and your homies from 10 countries can't get over?

Thanks,
g
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jul 15, 2010 - 10:06pm PT
Gene, you'd have to Google 'Muslims Denmark Holland Sweden' to get a feel for what our MSM doesn't report. Even Italy and France are having problems.

There is tension from the 'migrants' who refuse to assimilate despite choosing to immigrate to those countries.

Look it up...I can help if you're too lazy to do the research.
Gene

Social climber
Jul 15, 2010 - 10:11pm PT
Look it up...I can help if you're too lazy to do the research.


That's the most ridiculous thing I've read all day. Thanks Bluey for making me laugh.

g
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 15, 2010 - 10:11pm PT
There is tension from the 'migrants' who refuse to assimilate..
Darn those Amish, anyway. And what about the Hasidic Jews?
Ricardo Cabeza

climber
All Over.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 15, 2010 - 10:15pm PT
Darn those Amish

I imagine the Amish know a thing or two about darning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darning
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 15, 2010 - 10:17pm PT
Jokes like that leave me in stitches.
Gene

Social climber
Jul 15, 2010 - 10:18pm PT
Get back on thread you two!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jul 15, 2010 - 10:19pm PT
Darn those Amish, anyway. And what about the Hasidic Jews?

Do I really need to answer this, Anders? You a bright man who already knows the answer so I assume this to be a troll.

You're comparing rioting, stabbing, slandering North African migrants to the Amish and Jews? Really?
Ricardo Cabeza

climber
All Over.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 15, 2010 - 10:26pm PT
Gene, quit needling me, I'll get back on thread when it's fitting.
Gene

Social climber
Jul 15, 2010 - 10:41pm PT
RC,

What can I do about BR & RA and their yarns? They're warped. Not a purl amongst their posts. I'm in stitches about most of what they fabricate.

g
Gene

Social climber
Jul 15, 2010 - 10:42pm PT
Me an my "homies" Gene?? I dont have "homies"

Now I know I'm wrong. Thanks, Ron.

Best you can do?

g
Ricardo Cabeza

climber
All Over.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 15, 2010 - 10:47pm PT
Um, Ron, look to the top of the page. Read down. We were speaking in puns.

Seriously? You couldn't figure that out?

And all this time you had me on pins and needles...
Gene

Social climber
Jul 15, 2010 - 10:49pm PT
Ron,

Please understand that my previous post was a series of puns in reply to Mighty Hiker, Ricardo Cabeza, and myself.

Take a deep breathe and chill. K?

It's all good.

g

EDIT: Ron: I never intended to insult you. Sorry you misunderstood our warped {pun} humor.

g
Gene

Social climber
Jul 15, 2010 - 10:55pm PT
Ron,

Keep posting. It's all about pushing conflicting ideas at each other. That's how we end up with a solution, but if not that, at least respect for one another.

Best,
gene
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 16, 2010 - 01:44am PT
I'm knitting my brows at all this great humour, these purls of wisdom.
Ricardo Cabeza

climber
All Over.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 16, 2010 - 02:00am PT
Anders, you're clever.

It must just be woven into the fabric of your sole.
cupton

climber
Where the past and future meet
Jul 16, 2010 - 03:41am PT
Lolli,

Definitely make the trek out to Jordan if you can... Wadi Rum, Petra and the Red Sea but if you have the time its completely worth arranging the visas ahead and checking out Damascus. Every westerner I have know who has been there has been totally surprised with the gorgeous old city, laid back atmosphere and friendly people. In my mind best city in the Middle East.

The climbing around there is a bit lacking though.
I_do

Social climber
Utrecht
Jul 16, 2010 - 12:36pm PT
Eh Ron,

you might make a stronger case about your contacts in Holland and the Netherlands if you realized they weren't seperate countries.

Furthermore if you think there is such a thing as Islamisation you're a retard. In the Netherlands there's about 5% muslims right now, their numbers are expected to grow to about 8% in the next thirty years unless birth rates for muslims go down (which they probably will), the younger generations are less frequent visitors of Mosque's and have more liberal ideas then their parents btw.

So there's a small increase in numbers, and a strong adoption of western ideas.

You think that's islamisation?

There's enough useless fearmongering over here, no need for you to be scared of our muslims if I were you I'd focus on real problems in your own country.

And you also seem to forget American aggresion in Muslim countries, their hate does not invent itself...
I_do

Social climber
Utrecht
Jul 16, 2010 - 12:48pm PT
Fattrad,

I'm not quite sure if that's factually correct but I'll take your word on it.

However, most people in these countries are you know, just people trying to live their lives. Then suddenly there's this foreign intervention, what are they supposed to think?

How many of these people had anything to do whatsover with your examples of planes flying into buildings? There were 19 people who participated in the 9/11 hijacks. 3000 Americans were killed. How many Iraqi civilians? What was their role in 9/11?

America as a country is not a simple victim.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jul 16, 2010 - 12:58pm PT
I_do,

It sort of depends on whether you consider little things like Tripoli, the carving up of the Middle East after WWI, the creation of the state of Israel, helping create and fund all the Jihadis in Pakistan and Afghanistan in the 80's. Some of those annoying little details would be considered aggression by many Muslims.

But hey, fatty likes to keep it simple and not see that the other side has a point of view at all.
I_do

Social climber
Utrecht
Jul 16, 2010 - 01:06pm PT
And Ron,

please repost that letter by Geert Wilders, I will tell you exactly where and why he is wrong.

seriously.

Oh and please tell me, what is islamisation and by what parameters would we know wether it was happening or not.

How do we determine if it is in fact going on.

I quoted the numbers from the central bureau of statistics a non-profit research agency and a short recap of their research into the development of islam in the netherlands.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 16, 2010 - 01:17pm PT
I think theres a point where one says enough. Ask Europe how they feel about the new muslim push and neighborhoods containing mosques.

Maybe Europe should have thought about the long-term consequences of subjugating and colonizing muslim nations around the world before pulling that particular trigger. As it is, Europe is bearing the burden of a reverse colonization from its former colonies, and one richly deserved from a historical perspective.
I_do

Social climber
Utrecht
Jul 16, 2010 - 01:30pm PT
Ron,

are you telling me to go fish? I don't need to, I live in the Netherlands, I watch the news and I looked up the figures. I told you the way the numbers of, and ideas of muslims are expected to develop in the Netherlands.

I don't disagree with you because I'm uninformed, I disagree because you don't know what you're talking about.

How is going from 5-->8% muslims and thirty years, while developing a more western mindset islamification?

I gave you my reasoning now you show me yours.

Fattrad,

these people you are talking about are the real victims. much more muslims die of muslim terrorism then anyone else.

Maybe they should have revolted.

Maybe most of them don't even know half of what's going on.

Maybe most of them live in a regime which will strike down hard on insurgents and they are afraid, rightfully so.

These people have no obligations to you and are in no way responsible for when some dickwads decide to blow sh#t up.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jul 16, 2010 - 01:40pm PT
Welcome I_do!
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 16, 2010 - 01:46pm PT
Yes welcome Ido. Don't expect the mouth breathers to be enlightened by the facts and reality you present. Anything that challenges their dogma must be ignored.
I_do

Social climber
Utrecht
Jul 16, 2010 - 01:53pm PT
Thanks to the welcoming commity!
I_do

Social climber
Utrecht
Jul 16, 2010 - 02:03pm PT
Ey Fattrad,

interesting point of view, however I don't think I can agree with it. People working for lockhead or boeing make a conscious decision to work for a company who's business is war, they are free to do anything else. I don't think that's true for the people on the other side of the equation.

Good to hear you are critical of "your" side of the conflict though, makes it a lot easier to take you serious.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 16, 2010 - 02:11pm PT
Yes welcome I-do -however:

I_do, Utrecht Jul 16, 2010 - 09:36am PT
, said: "

Eh Ron,

you might make a stronger case about your contacts in Holland and the Netherlands if you realized they weren't seperate countries.


I didn't see where Ron called this, he claims it was a joke: the many times I've been to the Netherlands everyone there seemed to believe that Holland was part of the Netherlands and not a separate country, I could see that being humorous though. As far as that goes, saying "have you ever been to a Muslim country" on this web site: can somehow define if you know what you are talking regarding Islamic countries reminds me of the story of the 3 blind men all describing an Elephant. There are many versions of this story, all of them have the blind men touching different parts and describing different things which none of us would recognize as an Elephant.

To describe the middle east as "a this or a that" is very disingenuous, even if you have traveled to a relatively benign and westernized country like Lebanon, is absurd. Even in Lebanon alone, there are radically crazy different ideas, forces, history and powers at work that could be discussed endlessly. Druze, Copts, Palestinian refuge camps, various other Christians and many Muslims sects in a strange milieu. Much like trying to say that all people in the Netherlands are like Geert. http://www.geertwilders.nl/

Any South Moluccan will tell you that they are not, of course, and that any country with a rich history such as the Netherlands boasts, or the many varied and different countries we are discussing here, would be incapable of such a simple description.
apogee

climber
Jul 16, 2010 - 02:29pm PT
Run, Ron, RUN!!!11


Muslims are EEEEEEEVVVVVEEEERRRRRYYYYYYWWWWWHHHHEEEEEERRRRRREEEEE!!!!!!!111111


Aaaaaaaaaauuuuuuuuuuuuuuggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111111111
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 16, 2010 - 03:02pm PT
Again, bummer about those post-colonial woes - if Wilder had been around in the 17-1800s he'd have been pro-colonial all the way. Bummer it it was so shortsighted. And that he doesn't like the current day result? Bummer dude, but it's guys just like him that f*#ked it up to begin with.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 16, 2010 - 03:32pm PT
Islamification f*#ked up to begin with? Hmmm, consider for a moment what they say that about democracy when they read US newspapers and see the online news. The daily and massive raping, killing, robbery, drugs we (and they) see so common in our country and most Western democracies take a dramatic turn to the invisible in strict Islamic countries where a Sharia one strike law is basically in effect. You know what? They don't want that sh#t in their countries! So they feel that the trade off away from strict Sharia law to one of out of control violence is not one they choose to make.

Imagine that Ron:-)

I'm 100% with Geert on this one: "Dear friends, liberty is the most precious of gifts. My generation never had to fight for this freedom, it was offered to us on a silver platter, by people who fought for it with their lives. "

We have had it so good for so long that it is often easy to overlook that which is truly most important. Liberty, my friends.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Jul 16, 2010 - 04:32pm PT
Sheikh Yousef Al-Qaradhawi, head of the International Union of Muslim Scholars (IUMS), has recently voiced his opinion on various political issues, especially the Palestinian cause, claiming that the only way to liberate the occupied lands is through resistance. He called on Muslims to wage jihad of self-sacrifice, adding that those who are unable to do so should to take up other forms of jihad. He also criticized the Arab leaders for stubbornly clinging to the political process in general and to Arab peace initiatives specifically, which he claimed had achieved minimal results. Al-Qaradhawi praised Turkey for its contribution in the Gaza flotilla, and Mauritania for severing its ties with Israel.


And the devil can quote scripture for his purpose.

I don't think you can cherry pick and use that as an example of a vast and old religion's basic principles. It's one quote of one individual from an organization is probably as political as many of the institutes and organizations here in the U.S. that form under the guise of appearing politically independent but are really just mouthpieces for a special interest group. Does any one really think Swiftboaters were just a group of swiftboaters who got together to talk about swiftboats?

You could probably find even more provocative language from any of the very popular, well respected Christian groups in this country. Who was it, John Hagee, who said that Hurricane Katrina was God's retribution for our sinful ways. Other have said similar things about the 9/11 attacks. Are we then going to ban the building of any christian churches near the site? Accordingly to your logic, we should.

Admit it Fatty. You're just a hater.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 16, 2010 - 05:40pm PT
Build baby Build!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 4, 2010 - 01:26am PT
The New York City Landmarks Preservation Committee has voted, 9-0, to permit the construction of the mosque and Islamic centre. They did so by voting against granting historic protection for the building currently on the site the centre will be built on, which is two blocks from the site of the World Trade Centre. (Blocks are rather long in Manhattan.)

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/04/opinion/04wed1.html?hp

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/03/mosque-near-ground-zero-clears-key-hurdle/?scp=1&sq=cordoba%20mosque&st=cse

A victory for democracy, tolerance, and common sense.
apogee

climber
Aug 4, 2010 - 03:20am PT
"...the building currently on the site the centre will be built on, which is two blocks from the site of the World Trade Centre. (Blocks are rather long in Manhattan.)"


Democracy, tolerance and common sense indeed.

Especially since this site is two loooooong blocks away from ground zero, is not truly a 'mosque', and actually shares the same building with another interest.

Of course, for the islamo-paranoid, the fact that they are in the same hemisphere is proof enough of the conspiracy. How do you wingnuts sleep at night?
bluering

Trad climber
CA
Aug 10, 2010 - 11:28am PT
Interesting take from 2 Canadian Muslims;

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Mischief+Manhattan/3370303/story.html
Prezwoodz

climber
Anchorage
Aug 10, 2010 - 01:17pm PT
The Japanese occupied Alaska during world war 2 and thats not really taught in grade school either.

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 14, 2010 - 12:48pm PT
The latest: LA Times

"Supporting the mosque is a dicey proposition for Obama. Polls have shown a certain percentage of Americans mistakenly view him as a Muslim. He is Christian. Defending the mosque invites suspicion that he is overly sympathetic to the Muslim faith. At the same time, Obama has taken pains to reach out to the Muslim world. He gave a major speech in Cairo last year calling for "a new beginning" between the U.S. and Muslims."

For me, it comes down to deciding what fundamental principles I want to support.

For the Islamic Fundamentalists, the most offensive gov't is not the US, it is Saudi Arabia, the custodian of Mecca and Medina. It was no accident that the 911 hijackers were Saudi. The dream was to provoke the US to attack Saudi Arabia, and set the two satans against one another. This is how they think: if only they can get the Christian World to fight against the mainstream Muslim World, then they will pick up the pieces.

This is exactly the same plan that Charlie Manson had, except it was the White and Black worlds, then he would pick up the pieces. (Helter Skelter)

The radicals goal is to distrupt American life and ideals, turn Muslim Brother against Christian Brother. Every time that happens, it gets used in a huge way for propaganda to radicalize more muslims against us.

So, do I want to further our American ideals, or do I want to further the ideals of the Manson Clan/Radical Islam visions of the world?

My choice is clear, and I'll stand next to my muslim brothers, although I'm not a muslim or christian, myself....because they are my AMERICAN brothers, doing what this country was created to allow, religious freedom.
michae1

Gym climber
san jose
Aug 14, 2010 - 12:59pm PT
it seem's to be in bad taste , most new yorker's don't want it as most americans don't either
just say no.
throwpie

Trad climber
Berkeley
Aug 14, 2010 - 01:40pm PT
Religion of all stripes creates division at a time when we earthlings need to come together in peace. Thank god I'm an atheist...no cosmic ledger keeper for me thank you very much.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Aug 14, 2010 - 01:48pm PT
So if a community thinks it is generally in bad taste to allow a jewish synagogue in their town, it should be prohibited?

Freedom of religion is subject to a good tastes requirement? So I can start banning catholic churches???
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 14, 2010 - 02:43pm PT
Only problem with that reasoning, LEB, is that you are not using your brain, but your emotional reaction that was created by the extremists:

Who is controlling your brain?

You want to take an action that furthers your enemies goals, because they have set you up to do so. They WANT YOU to discard your concepts of freedom of religion, because they advocate that you don't really believe it, you actually are opposed to religions not your own.

Will you take actions to prove them right? Or will you stand fast in the freedoms espoused by our country?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 14, 2010 - 06:03pm PT
Oh sweet, we're getting a 70' minaret installed in Santa Clara now! I bet you guys are jealous.
Mason

Trad climber
Yay Area
Aug 14, 2010 - 08:13pm PT
Interesting take from El Presidente.

lol

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100814/ts_afp/uspoliticsreligionattacksobama_20100814172344

I don't know what to make of this.

Cosmiccragman, I think Israelis have built temples and destroyed plenty of mosques in Palestine for decades now. Irony?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 14, 2010 - 10:26pm PT
LEB, I don't understand your response to me.

You make an argument that differentiates between what is legal, and what is smart.

If you read my posts, you will find nothing that addresses the legal issue, as I think there is none. You think there is none....so no issue.

In fact, I am arguing that building the mosque is the smart thing to do.
The message is uniquely American, tolerant, and accepting of religions other than protestant christianity.

What message do you want to send, if you were in a position to make the decision?

There were innocent muslims killed in 911 along with everyone else. They don't get to pray?

And the mosque is NOT "on ground zero", and you shouldn't keep repeating that falsehood.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Boulder, CO
Aug 14, 2010 - 10:34pm PT
So the same republicans who continually hammer points about Constitution, freedom and rights are trying to deny them.

Same sh#t from them...just a different group of people this time.


What a bunch of losers.
noshoesnoshirt

climber
Arkansas, I suppose
Aug 14, 2010 - 11:35pm PT
I agree with all those who believe it's a bad move. I call upon all of you to decry the Christian edifices erected within the same distance of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building. Some disturbed and radicalised Christian fundamentalist killed hundreds of innocent Americans and we should decry not only the actions of this individual but the motives of his entire religion.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Aug 15, 2010 - 10:35am PT
And..."McVeigh invited California conductor/composer David Woodard to perform a pre-requiem (a Mass for those who are about to die), on the eve of his execution. He had also requested a Catholic chaplain."

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 15, 2010 - 10:40am PT
What a short memory you have, LEB.

Making a huge protest over something, means that you have access to the media to do so. I can just imagine how you, and the republican rabid dogs would have responded to giving the national microphone over to Islamic leaders right after 911. "How dare they!"

But she who forgets the past, is doomed to repeat it.

When 911 happened, I immediately feared what the reaction to muslims in general was going to be. Why? I remembered the japanese-americans, in the wake of Pearl Harbor, the last major foreign attack on US soil.

"Japanese-American internment was the forced relocation and internment by the United States government in 1942 of approximately 110,000 Japanese Americans and Japanese residing along the Pacific coast of the United States to camps called "War Relocation Camps," in the wake of Imperial Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor"

"President Franklin Delano Roosevelt authorized the internment with Executive Order 9066 on February 19, 1942, which allowed local military commanders to designate "military areas" as "exclusion zones," from which "any or all persons may be excluded." This power was used to declare that all people of Japanese ancestry were excluded from the entire Pacific coast, including all of California and most of Oregon and Washington, except for those in internment camps.[7] In 1944, the Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of the exclusion orders,[8] while noting that the provisions that singled out people of Japanese ancestry were a separate issue outside the scope of the proceedings.[9] The United States Census Bureau assisted the internment efforts by providing confidential neighborhood information on Japanese Americans."

"On January 2, the Joint Immigration Committee of the California Legislature sent a manifesto to California newspapers which attacked "the ethnic Japanese," whom it alleged were "totally unassimilable"

"The manifesto was backed by the Native Sons and Daughters of the Golden West and the California Department of the American Legion, which in January demanded that all Japanese with dual citizenship be placed in concentration camps"

"By February, Earl Warren, the Attorney General of California, had begun his efforts to persuade the federal government to remove all people of Japanese heritage from the West Coast."

"Other California newspapers also embraced this view. According to a Los Angeles Times editorial,

"A viper is nonetheless a viper wherever the egg is hatched... So, a Japanese American born of Japanese parents, nurtured upon Japanese traditions, living in a transplanted Japanese atmosphere... notwithstanding his nominal brand of accidental citizenship almost inevitably and with the rarest exceptions grows up to be a Japanese, and not an American... Thus, while it might cause injustice to a few to treat them all as potential enemies, I cannot escape the conclusion... that such treatment... should be accorded to each and all of them while we are at war with their race."

So, if I were a muslim immediately post 911, I'd have kept my head down, and waited to see what happened. But they have not neccessarily done that:

"Jim Wilson/The New York Times
Now nine influential American Muslim scholars have come together in a YouTube video to repudiate the militants’ message. The nine represent a diversity of theological schools within Islam, and several of them have large followings among American Muslim youths."

As for immediate reaction by us muslim groups:

http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm#Statements from Leading American Muslim Organizations:



bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 15, 2010 - 11:01am PT
Some disturbed and radicalised Christian fundamentalist killed hundreds of innocent Americans and we should decry not only the actions of this individual but the motives of his entire religion.

Uh, Hitler and Mussolini claimed to be of the Christian faith too. They didn't perpetrate their brands of evil in the name of religion though. Neither did McVeigh. Timmy-boy was a militant anti-Federalist.

Hitler was a sadistic racist and Mussolini literally invented fascism. Nothing to do with religion.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 15, 2010 - 11:12am PT
I think Karl is a crazy Hindu, but I get your point.
LED

Social climber
the great beyond
Aug 15, 2010 - 11:41am PT
michae1

Gym climber
san jose
Aug 15, 2010 - 01:43pm PT
(So if a community thinks it is generally in bad taste to allow a jewish synagogue in their town, it should be prohibited?

Freedom of religion is subject to a good tastes requirement? So I can start banning catholic churches???)




building the mosque is not the problem it is the proximity to the site of ground zero it is not appropriate just as building nazi party meeting hall next to a synagogue would be in bad taste
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 15, 2010 - 02:01pm PT
LEB wrote:
"Also, it might be helpful if you could refrain from exaggerated emotionalism such as calling me "rabid." It is really hard for me to afford you any sort of credibility at all nor pay attention to any of your points when you demonstrate such a lack of control over your own emotions. If you wish for me and others to take you seriously, you need to speak with some measure of temperance."

LEB, I clearly will have trouble communicating with you, if you don't have basic command of english. When I wrote about how "you AND rabid repubs would act", that was clearly EXLUDING YOU from the rabid republicans, although I think you'd have reacted in the same way on the subject of my point.

I don't see you responding to my refutation of american muslim repudiation of 911, which they did. Bush acknowledged that, why can't you?

And if you don't think that things that happened 50+ years ago don't weigh on the minds of affected groups, or similar groups, then you don't know any jews. Ask them if the holocaust could happen again, since it was so long ago...........
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Aug 15, 2010 - 02:10pm PT
Any Sam Harris followers at the Taco. He weighs in:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-08-13/ground-zero-mosque/
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 15, 2010 - 04:04pm PT
I saw an interview with the people behind the Islamic center which already exists in that location and just want to rebuild/expand. They didn't seem to be radicals and wanted to distance themselves from 9-11, terrorism and all that.

Seems like having such an venue close to ground zero would be a further positive step, not a negative one. Empowering moderate Muslims (like fatty sez)

Much prejudice and pent up stuff involved here. Making us at war with Islam is something that those who want war on both sides are placing in our respective minds. Let's not empower those people .

For me, I am not a Hindu nor a Christian nor a Buddhist (or I am all) One God means there's truth in all of it, and I have studied all of it. (Arrogantly, I'll claim to know more about Christianity than 95% of professed Christians and I love the forgiveness, non-judgmental and kind teachings of Christ, but don't believe God tortures those who don't "believe" in the easter bunny with billions of years of torture)

PEace

Karl

Edit: How would folks feel about protests against folks wanting to build a church near an Indian Reservation? Wasn't spreading Christainity one of the prime excuse for "Taming, converting and relocating" the American Indians? By the Spanish in California and later by the rest of us?

Peace

Karl
Greg Barnes

climber
Aug 15, 2010 - 04:38pm PT
Over 200 posts on a non-issue. Have any of you anti-mosque people ever frigging read the Bill of Rights? I'll give you a hint: it's part of the Constitution of a country called the USA.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Anyone against the mosque is against the USA. Racists, bigots, right-wing radio listeners, "reasonable upstanding citizens", whatever you want to label yourselves, who cares.

If we let them influence us to IGNORE the first amendment, the terrorists have won.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 15, 2010 - 07:36pm PT
I wish the haters would STFU. What they do does so much more harm than good.

The moral authority of the USA has been compromised enough already.




Trying to ban this mosque harks back to the knee jerk reactions that led to concentration camps being built here in Utah for native Japanese-Americans after Pearl Harbor.

Principles are only principles if you keep to them when it is not convenient.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Aug 15, 2010 - 08:20pm PT
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/28/nyregion/28nyc.html?_r=1

Near Ground Zero, the Sacred and the Profane
By CLYDE HABERMAN
Published: May 27, 2010

Since long before the Islamist terrorist attack of Sept. 11, 2001, a storefront mosque has been sitting on West Broadway in TriBeCa, a dozen blocks from the World Trade Center. No one seems to have ever minded its being there.

Now, assuming he can raise the money and clear some remaining bureaucratic hurdles, the spiritual guide of that mosque intends to build a multistory Islamic community center, including a space for prayer, on Park Place, two blocks from what is routinely called ground zero.


Cries of protest have been loud and insistent from certain quarters. They include people who lost relatives on Sept. 11 and who describe the trade center site with words like “hallowed” and “sacred.” To put an Islamic center so close, they say, would amount to a defilement.

At least now, in terms of geography, we know where outrage begins. That point is somewhere between 12 blocks and 2. The exact spot remains a mystery, though. Would it be O.K. if the Islamic center, called Cordoba House, were to be put four blocks from ground zero? Or is that still too close? How about eight blocks away?

The intention here is not to be flippant. But the question of what constitutes proper respect for the dead of 9/11 has never been simple. For some, it seems to turn solely on religion, and that puts everyone on slippery constitutional terrain.

No one is known to have protested the fact that three blocks from ground zero, on Murray Street off West Broadway, there is a strip joint. It prefers to call itself a gentlemen’s club. A man stood on the street corner the other day handing out free passes to willing gentlemen.

On Church Street, around the corner from where Cordoba House would rise, there is a store that sells pornographic videos and an assortment of sex toys. A few doors east of the planned Islamic center, there is an Off-Track Betting office. Spilling onto the sidewalk in front of it the other day were men who would have been described in my old Bronx neighborhood as degenerate gamblers.

A strip joint, a porno store and a government-run bookie operation. No one has organized demonstrations to denounce those activities as defiling the memory of the men and women who died a few hundred yards away.

But an Islamic center strikes a nerve for some.
At a bruising hearing that Manhattan Community Board 1 held Tuesday night before giving Cordoba House its blessing, one protester held a sign that said, “Where is sensitivity to 9/11 families?”

A corollary to that question, however, might be: Which families? They are hardly a monolith.

Some 9/11 relatives see anything Islamic near ground zero as a slap in the face. Others couldn’t care less. Still others share the opinion of Donna Marsh O’Connor, who is on the steering committee of a group called September 11 Families for Peaceful Tomorrows. She said it was “the American way” to have a cultural center that its founder, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, asserts is dedicated to interfaith tolerance.

New York officialdom, while sensitive to the displeased families, has long made it clear that it is not about to hand them veto power over how the city builds and rebuilds. Officials from the mayor on down have endorsed Cordoba House, in large measure because of Imam Feisal, a Sufi who has cultivated relations with other religions and who has spoken out against the violence of Islamist fanatics. He has given no one a reason to doubt his sincerity.

OUTRAGE over the project seems at times to increase in direct proportion to distance from the site. A columnist for the tabloid Washington Examiner recently called it “the second attack on the World Trade Center.” Columnists and editorialists for New York’s tabloids who are rarely given to kumbaya moments have described such denunciations as “hysteria.”

One 9/11 relative observed ruefully this week that the Islamic center would attract noisy protests to a scarred area of the city that should be, he said, a zone of tranquillity. If that proves to be the case, it is up to the demonstrators to decide how loud they want to be in the shadow of the trade center.

But they have a right to protest. It is guaranteed in the First Amendment, the same one that ensures freedom of religion, with no asterisk that says “*except for Islam.” It is the same amendment that allows a strip joint and a porno shop to exist a couple of blocks from hallowed ground.


PAUL SOUZA

Trad climber
Clovis, CA
Aug 15, 2010 - 09:03pm PT
Despite how much in "bad taste" this may be to some......that is the price we pay for our freedoms guaranteed to us by the Constitution.

What's amusing to me is that the same people that want to talk about freedom, are the same people who want to take freedoms away from others.

You can't please everyone.

Islam didn't slay 3,000 Americans. Terrorists did. Big difference. We all still retain the ability to choose our actions, despite what our book of choice says.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 15, 2010 - 09:45pm PT
I wish to point out that "degenerate gamblers" and "patrons of pornography" are minding their own business, living their lives as they see fit. They are not bombing and killing anyone else in the name of a "jihad" or holy war versus the west. Give me a drunken gambler or male who likes to see pictures/movies of naked women (i.e. normal men) any day over a terrorist murderer.

Neither are moderate muslims Lois. There's plenty of sex slavery and con artists in the world you could sorta link to porn and gambling if you care to link Islam to terrorism.

Peace

karl
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 15, 2010 - 09:55pm PT
There's an obvious and purposely unmentioned symbolism of all this.

What was Cordoba? (Cordoba house)

Cordoba was the capital of the Andalusian caliphate and lost in the reconquesta of Spain from Islam. An historic event of long lament by Muslims.

Mosques at the location of Islamic military victories are ubiquitous.

This is a bad idea.

For both sides!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 15, 2010 - 10:01pm PT
I wish to point out that "degenerate gamblers" and "patrons of pornography" are minding their own business, living their lives as they see fit. They are not bombing and killing anyone else in the name of a "jihad" or holy war versus the west. Give me a drunken gambler or male who likes to see pictures/movies of naked women (i.e. normal men) any day over a terrorist murderer.

See, there you go again. I do not see a proposal to place terrorist murderers in the place of gamblers and patrons. To characterize these moderates that way is just disgusting.

The way that we will coexist with the billion followers of the muslim faith is not to find the best way to exterminate them (although, that is what they say we are doing---are they right?)

The best way is to find peaceful coexistence, and the leadership and acceptance of moderate muslims is clearly the best way.

"If I turn my enemies into my friends, have I not defeated my enemy?"

Of course, that was said by Abraham Lincoln, who saved the country.

And he was a Republican.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Boulder, CO
Aug 15, 2010 - 10:30pm PT
LEBBB wrote...Sorry, Karl, if I don't exactly give a sh#t about their sacred civil liberties. My sympathies are more with the 3000 people who are no longer with us today and the families who morn the losses. Sure, build a mosque, no problem. Just find some other (less in-your-face) place to build it.


it is two city blocks from ground zero...it is on private property. STFU will you.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 15, 2010 - 11:01pm PT
Lois writes

Well, Karl, be that as it may, 3000 people is a heck of a lot of dead folks whose point of demise is not terribly far from said proposed mosque. Not withstanding the link that Ken has posted, I will submit that the condemnation from the Muslim world regarding the events of 9/11 has not been exactly resounding and clear cut. It's been sort of half-hearted, if you ask me, and then not all the leaders have even gone so far as to even condemn the acts in the first place.


Well, the number the USA killed in Iraq since 2003 is many, many times more than that, and there are millions of homeless refugees there. Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11 and yet where was the widespread, clear cut, and resounding condemnation from the Christian world?

Lois, you're just being hateful and hypocritical.

Peace

Karl
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Aug 15, 2010 - 11:02pm PT
(Against my better judgment about getting involved here,) I gotta say that I can't help but notice that the condemnation from the Nursing World regarding the events of 9/11 has not been exactly resounding and clear cut.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 15, 2010 - 11:32pm PT
(Against my better judgment about getting involved here,)

While I really enjoy your participation in our ongoing clusterchuckles, you're either in or you're out! Quit trying to be the 'outsider'. Take a side and state your case. Or just stay out of it. Why else would you chime in?

I love ya too, Callie, I'm just sayin'...I welcome your refreshing intellect and new insights. Quit being shy. You got something to say???? Say it!

Rock on, gal.



Well, the number the USA killed in Iraq since 2003 is many, many times more than that, and there are millions of homeless refugees there. Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11 and yet where was the widespread, clear cut, and resounding condemnation from the Christian world?

Lois, you're just being hateful and hypocritical.



Karl, Iraq had a world of hurt coming to her for a while. Remember the 90's?
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Aug 15, 2010 - 11:36pm PT
The mosque is not being built at ground zero. This is a fact.

They have every right to build that mosque where ever they want. This is a fact.

It may not be the best PR decision to build that mosque where ever they want. This is an opinion.

I am not king and can't make them do what I think is best. This is a fact.

Seems simple to me.

edit: My reluctance in participating in threads like this is because I'm not into arguing as a sport. I do however like hearing information from all sides and digesting it. It seems to me that too often arguing is far more common than an exchange of informed ideas and thoughtful consideration of those ideas.
Jack Burns

climber
Aug 15, 2010 - 11:39pm PT
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 15, 2010 - 11:43pm PT
They have every right to build that mosque where ever they want. This is a fact.

It may not be the best PR decision to build that mosque where ever they want. This is an opinion.

I am not king and can't make them do what I think is best. This is a fact.

Seems simple to me.

Absolutely correct!! But is it in bad taste? That is the question. If these rat-f*#ks wanted to show 'tolerance' as they keep saying, wouldn't they respect overwhelming condemnation by NY'ers??

It's seems they do it in spite of them, intentionally. Almost an affront to them. Ya know?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 15, 2010 - 11:52pm PT
edit: My reluctance in participating in threads like this is because I'm not into arguing as a sport. I do however like hearing information from all sides and digesting it. It seems to me that too often arguing is far more common than an exchange of informed ideas and thoughtful consideration of those ideas

So why 'argue' or discuss ideas. Maybe we should all just conform....

I get your point, Callie, but there is progress through heated debate. Sometimes, but it's still progress.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Aug 15, 2010 - 11:55pm PT
Taste - good or bad - is an opinion.

They are not a homogeneous group any more than Christians are a homogeneous group or nurses are a homogeneous group or females are a homogeneous group or New Yorkers are a homogeneous group.

If somehow the f*#ks that flew the planes that day survived and were trying to build a temple of some sort honoring their beliefs and actions on or even near (e.g., within 5000 miles) ground zero, that would be terrible taste in my opinion. THIS would be an affront. This would be doing something to spite humanity.

But that is not what is happening.

The folks wanting to do this did not fly the planes. They did not plan the attacks. They just happen to share a religious name that the terrorists claimed. Being labeled with the same religion does not make them terrorists or responsible for 9/11. They are no more responsible for 9/11 than you are for the whacko criminals that kill abortion doctors or prostitutes or anyone else in the name of Christianity. They are no more responsible for 9/11 than people who drink alcohol are for all the people killed by drunk drivers.

I did not state in my previous post whether I thought it was a good idea because it's only that - an opinion. Honestly, it doesn't matter to me a bit if they do it or not since they are not the terrorists responsible for the attacks.

In my opinion, this is yet another bullshit topic that politicians are using to their advantage for election. This is politics at its worst (the norm). Get the base angry over some non-issue so they'll vote for some person who can maintain their political position.

I think there are plenty of issues out there to get worked up over. A group having nothing to do with 9/11 (except having been present during the actual attack as they were already in the area) wanting to build a mosque several blocks from ground zero isn't one of them for me.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Boulder, CO
Aug 15, 2010 - 11:58pm PT
Callie wrote: n my opinion, this is yet another bullshit topic that politicians are using to their advantage for election. This is politics at its worst (the norm). Get the base angry over some non-issue so they'll vote for some person who can maintain their political position.


Just like WMD's, Gay marriage, abortion and death panels.


Lower the bar, then drop it lower to reach their base.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Aug 15, 2010 - 11:58pm PT
I don't see arguing as productive. It's like watching two year olds fight. Some people enjoy this I know (not watching 2 year olds fight, but arguing). I am just not one of them.

In contrast, I find that discussion is something I enjoy very much. It's something I learn a great deal from. It is something I am happy to engage in. But it requires informed participants with open minds who are listening - really listening - to each other.

I see the two as different exercises.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 16, 2010 - 01:11am PT
I am not king...

Wouldn't it be Queen Callie? :-)
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 16, 2010 - 01:29am PT
Who said anything about "exterminating" them. Certainly not me. I am not into "jihad," remember? When more of the Muslims come out and decry the atrocities committed both here and in their own country, that is when I will afford them the respect you claim they deserve. What I have heard in the way of "disapproval" is not very much and it is certainly not very convincing - more like crocodile tears, if you ask me.

LEB, are you totally clueless about this issue? It is AMERICANS who are desiring to (re_)build this mosque, not Saudis, Egyptians, Syrians, Iraqis, Iranians, or Afghanis. AMERICANS. You seem very concerned about foreigners who are muslims, but they are NOT INVOLVED in this issue!

When you start to actually read the mainstream muslim press, THEN you can complain. You have made blanket statements about muslims, and have backed NONE of it up with any references or links.

You don't differentiate between muslim extremists and mainstream muslims. Look at your posts. When you lump everyone together, that is stereotyping. You appear to have no sympathy for the innocent muslims that were killed by the extremists of 911, are they somehow less American because of their religion?

The moderates muslims are trying to change the radical thinking of the extremists, particularly of young muslims. You're desire to interfere with their efforts provides material assistance to the terrorists. Why would you do that??? Why are you helping America's enemies?
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Aug 16, 2010 - 03:23am PT
This is so typical...
Grouping an entire segment of the world's peoples due to the actions of a few nutjobs...

Hey not all Germans were Nazis...
and dare I say...not all Repubs/Dems/etc are knuckleheads...

In my mind too many American's paid the ultimate sacrifice throughout our country's history so that Mosque COULD be built there.

Is it in good/bad taste?
Depends on what happens as an outcome (and obviously your point of view).
I see it as a positive step in building bridges of understanding and tolerance.

Muslims are not the enemy (and it sounds like there are some here that think that).
Intolerance is.

Cheers,
DD

edit: that rat-f**k comment is typical Blue...


mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Aug 16, 2010 - 03:25am PT
Go to the Butte Bouldering Bash that place is cool no matter what religion you are.
426

climber
Buzzard Point, TN
Aug 16, 2010 - 08:04am PT
I don't see the same willingness of the part of the Muslims to openly and loudly censure the evil-doers within their own ranks.


Here, to get you started. There are really countless people that have spoken out...there are a lot more links "if you try"

http://revjimsutter.blogspot.com/2006/10/muslims-speak-out-against-terrorism.html

You just don't ever hear about it because frankly, it doesn't make good press and it keeps people "livin in fear", something the lamestream media is great at!!


C, I'm not scared, I'm with Barnes, DD, Bob, et al. Mebbe the "strict constructionists" that sure don't understand the Constitution should move somewheres else...
Roger Breedlove

climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
Aug 16, 2010 - 08:05am PT
In today's WSJ: The Islamic Center of Temecula Valley..."plans to build a 25,000-square-foot mosque in conservative Riverside County outside of Los Angeles. Opponents have said it will draw extremists and traffic."

I am so thankful I live in Cleveland...we don't have traffic.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 17, 2010 - 12:33am PT
Lois wrote

It is my belief that there is a strong inhibition in the Muslin crowd to speak out against their own. Whether it is cultural or whatever, the end result is that we do not see a whole lot of vocal condemnation of extremist from this crowd, in the general sense.

Lois, Nobody likes to speak out against their own. Like I said before, where was the peace-loving Christian condemnation over the illegal and immoral Iraq invasion (or the torture, if you somehow think Iraq had it coming because, after all, they tortured people!) You don't even hear the Catholics going public loud and clear against child molestation...Why? Because they don't want to give the impression that Catholicism and Child Molestation are linked!!! and it isn't! Would you protest a Catholic church going in close to an elementary school?

If we really wanted to support moderate Islam, really didn't want to give the terrorists their main objective on 9-11 (to create a war between the west and Islam) and Christains really wanted to walk the teachings of Jesus, we should all line up and stand up for that mosque going in right where they want it. Churches should protest the discrimination and support their Muslim Brothers and Sisters. Islam, after all, is the religion most aligned with Christianity in the world, They believe in Jesus as one of their greatest prophets and believe he is the prophet who will reappear on Judgement day.

Peace

karl
Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Aug 17, 2010 - 12:51am PT
"Moderate Islam"? Are those the ones that don't believe in the teachings of the Koran?

There's already over 100 mosques in NY city, why build one there?
Muslims have a history of building mosques on sites that they see as religiously important. It will be a symbol of victory to all Muslims and be portrayed as a sign that Alah is on their side. It will be used as a recruiting tool as well.
The mosque builders even initially called it the "ground zero" mosque.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 17, 2010 - 12:53am PT
Muslims have a history of building mosques on sites that they see as religiously important.
So do Christians, and perhaps other faiths. Many Christian churches in Europe, at least, were built on sites that were sacred to the religions that they displaced. It was a symbol that your beliefs had beaten the others. Druids, Wiccans, and the Valhalla bunch have been grumpy ever since.
Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Aug 17, 2010 - 12:55am PT
MH that is so completely beside the point, but obviously you don't disagree.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 17, 2010 - 12:56am PT
Do the republicans have any issue they push that does not involve white fear, angst, outrage, and indignation? I'm sure missing it if they do.
bmacd

climber
Relic Hominid
Aug 17, 2010 - 01:14am PT
I luved this observation:
Strict Islamic tolerance is limited to the size of your dick

Islam works very well, if you are one of the guys running the show, or are a man. Why just the other day, one of my Islamic neighbours knifed his wife in the back and shoved her off the 10th floor balcony of a apartment building. I can post pics of the body if you like. Don't worry folks - just another "HONOR" killing in Vancouver.

Canada is well on it's way to becoming a failed state thanks to ultra liberal "tolerance" views on religious beliefs and who qualifies as a refugee.

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Boulder, CO
Aug 17, 2010 - 01:18am PT
bmacd wrote: Why just the other day, one of my Islamic neighbours knifed his wife in the back and shoved her off the 10th floor balcony of a apartment building.


Like Christians have never done such acts.


What is your point other than trying to demonize all Muslims?

What do you make of this....Most serial killers were raised strict Christian. USA produces 80% of the world's serial killers, yet has only 5% of world's population. USA is 75% Christian.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 17, 2010 - 01:45am PT
Lois said:

"It is my belief that there is a strong inhibition in the Muslin crowd to speak out against their own. Whether it is cultural or whatever, the end result is that we do not see a whole lot of vocal condemnation of extremist from this crowd, in the general sense."

Well, you don't hold yourself out to be a media specialist, an expert on Muslim Culture, or a follower of American Muslim media (or do you have a few subscriptions that would surprise us), so how do you come to this "belief". Is it the result of your watching of the mainstream media, or even worse, the right-wing media, neither of which is likely to have extensive coverage of Muslim outrage over 911, eh? Or is it the result of somthing that you can actually cite?

Lois says:
"By contrast, the westerners are very willing to condemn "their own" (notice the quotes) whenever appropriate. We speak out loudly and in very harsh terms against the KKK, the perps at Abu Graib, the violent miscreants within our society, etc. We don't hold back and beat around the bush."

Glad you don't believe in the "thin blue line": docs, lawyers, nurses refusing to testify against each other, and all the other things that people say is true.

By the way, a Muslim who lives in the west is a "westerner". You keep trying to define these religious people geographically, which it is not.


Lois says
"I don't see the same willingness of the part of the Muslims to openly and loudly censure the evil-doers within their own ranks. They are much more convert and circumspect about what they say and this translates (in our culture) to tacit approval on some level. Again, Ken, it may be a cultural thing but it comes across very poorly. I'd like for you to comment on whether there IS, in fact, a cultural inhibition against speaking out against one's "own." "

You will not see extensive interviews of muslims by Rush and cohorts, no matter how much muslim leaders might yell and scream.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 17, 2010 - 01:50am PT
Like Christians have never done such acts.

Not in the name of Christianity!!!! Not on the same level of honor killings take place in Islam.

Uh wait, you'll bring up an abortion bomber, Hitler, and McVeigh, right??? And yet no condemnation for the Weather Underground, Hamas, et al....
bmacd

climber
Relic Hominid
Aug 17, 2010 - 02:01am PT
Bob D'A wake up and smell the coffee, or become a politician.

Islamists are a problem, everywhere. A guy could do really well in the world if he had a nation of people stupid enough to get worked up over Mohammed cartoons worshipping him.

Did you marginalize your wife this morning ?
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Aug 17, 2010 - 02:03am PT
some of you are lacking entirely accurate info-
so you can either choose to go on with your assumptions and misinformation, or possibly, spend a few minutes watching this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dXFo0UUACM&feature=player_embedded


so, what's it gonna be?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 17, 2010 - 02:14am PT
Are you f*#king serious, Matt??? Olberman???

I expect better from you.
dirtbag

climber
Aug 17, 2010 - 02:20am PT
Do the republicans have any issue they push that does not involve white fear, angst, outrage, and indignation? I'm sure missing it if they do.

You forgot selfishness.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 17, 2010 - 02:27am PT
from a 2007 Washington Times article with a blogger's comment inserted:

Navy imam Chaplain Abuhena M. Saifulislam lifted his voice to God as he called to prayer more than 100 Department of Defense employees Monday at a celebration of Ramadan at the Pentagon.

God is most great, sang the lieutenant commander and Islamic leader, in Arabic, as iftar -- the end of the daily fast began.

Uniformed military personnel, civilians and family members faced Mecca and knelt on adorned prayer rugs chanting their prayers in quiet invocation to Allah.

When it comes to Muslims praying at Ground Zero, it doesn't get much Ground Zeroier than that! As Elliott observes:

Yes, Muslims have infiltrated the Pentagon for their nefarious, prayerful purposes -- daring to practice their religion inside the building where 184 people died on Sept. 11, 2001. They haven't even had the sensitivity to move two blocks, let alone a mile, away from that sacred site.
Oh, my stars and garters! These Muslims at the Pentagon probably even have security clearances! (Because they are Department of Defense employees who protect America from al Qaeda death cultists, I'm guessing.)
PAUL SOUZA

Trad climber
Clovis, CA
Aug 17, 2010 - 02:28am PT
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-august-10-2010/municipal-land-use-hearing-update
Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Aug 17, 2010 - 02:35am PT
Like Christians have never done such acts.


What is your point other than trying to demonize all Muslims?
Wow. Don't tell me you guys lack the logic skill to see there is a clear difference.
Just because a Christian or a Jew etc. has done it, it wasn't because their religion teaches to do it. It is a huge distintion.

Not a related quote...just one of my faves:
"And do not kill any one whom Allah has forbidden, except for a just cause, and whoever is slain unjustly, We have indeed given to his heir authority, so let him not exceed the just limits in slaying;"
Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Aug 17, 2010 - 02:46am PT
Navy imam Chaplain Abuhena M. Saifulislam lifted his voice to God as he called to prayer more than 100 Department of Defense employees Monday at a celebration of Ramadan at the Pentagon.


Whew! Good thing they weren't Christians! I'll bet if they were,
then you guys would have your panties all in a bunch, screaming about "separation of church and state".

BTW: I do believe under the US Constitution and Federal law , they have every right to build a mosque wherever they want, even if it shows poor taste, bad judgement and offends many Americans.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 17, 2010 - 02:50am PT
Wow. Don't tell me you guys lack the logic skill to see there is a clear difference.

No they have the skills, they would rather call you a racist though. It's easier and sounds more 'superior' in their minds. But you know this..

Good news is most Americans are tired of it. They see through this crap now.

EDIT:


Whew! Good thing they weren't Christians! I'll bet if they were,
then you guys would have your panties all in a bunch, screaming about "separation of church and state".

Good point. Where is the ACLU at? Shouldn't they be suing the Pentagon?

I'm sure they're working in it...F*#king commies.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 17, 2010 - 02:56am PT
Shack writes

I do believe under the US Constitution and Federal law , they have every right to build a mosque wherever they want, even if it shows poor taste, bad judgement and offends many Americans.

It only shows poor taste if you believe that we are at war with Islam.

Since there are more than 1 billion Muslims, you could make a case that the percentage of muslim terrorists is far smaller than the percentage of pedophile priests. Is it bad taste to have a cathedral near a school? Only if you believe Catholicism is a religion of Child Molesters. It isn't. Why should Islam accept your negative definition of them?

All those things you can quote that are ugly about things written in the Koran, you can find equally ugly things in the Bible. There are also Christians who believe that all non-believers will be tortured in Hell for billions of years and there is a history of killing people to enforce the spread of that religion. Why do we amplify the darkness in others and ignore our own.

Disclaimer: I'm going to freely admit that I have prejudiced feelings against strict interpreters of Islam, and of Haters of all faiths (and non-faiths) everywhere.

Peace

karl
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 17, 2010 - 03:07am PT
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-august-10-2010/municipal-land-use-update---ground-zero-mosque

Geez, I don't get how the very people who wave the flag the loudest are the ones who oppose the very liberties and freedoms the country stands for.

Guess what, liberty and freedom are not just for those beliefs and practices that we like and do ourselves. The people who founded this country practiced religious views that were persecuted in their home countries.

Oh wait. maybe the right wing has a point. The founding fathers were terrorists who betrayed their country and created a new country with freedom of religion. Maybe these muslims are trying to create New Yorkistan, which you can build a mosque if you want!

Peace

Karl
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 17, 2010 - 03:10am PT
There are also Christians who believe that all non-believers will be tortured in Hell for billions of years and there is a history of killing people to enforce the spread of that religion. Why do we amplify the darkness in others and ignore our own.

That's not the issue, is it? We're not talking about a Catholic Church in Mecca, are we?

Always the moral equivocation...And this from a Hindu whose people had temples smashed by muslim invaders to set their seal of dominance.

Keep up your 'peace'. It will destroy you and your faith.
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Aug 17, 2010 - 03:12am PT
i know it, BLUE!!!







...guys with actual facts and information are so damn hard to deal with!
apogee

climber
Aug 17, 2010 - 03:12am PT
"Keep up your 'peace'. It will destroy you and your faith."

Any guesses as to how many people have died under the sword of Christianity over the millenia, blue? Hardly 'peaceful'.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 17, 2010 - 03:22am PT
Any guesses as to how many people have died under the sword of Christianity over the millenia, blue? Hardly 'peaceful'.

I never said we were. Only a fool lays down his sword in the face of evil.

Do you think God intended us to have peace with evil, or to make peace with man? Think before you answer. And ask yourself what evil is.

Matt, cheers. Is that daughter due??? God bless the family.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 17, 2010 - 03:27am PT
Yeah, this mosque thing is small potatoes (I know...) compared to what would happen
if the Catholics tried to build a church on Shankill Road in Proddy Belfast!
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 17, 2010 - 03:50am PT
Bluering wrote

Do you think God intended us to have peace with evil, or to make peace with man? Think before you answer. And ask yourself what evil is.

Not a Hindu by the way Bluering, but I already admitted that I'm prejudiced against fundamentalist Islam (or Fundamentalist Christianity for that matter)

But I do put stock in the teachings of Christ (not televangelists, or even st. Paul, but Jesus in the gospels)

What did he say? Resist not evil. Do good to those who would harm you. Turn the other cheek. Love your neighbor as yourself. Except the brown people and the pagans...drop cluster bombs on them.

Actually one of those teachings isn't from Jesus. How come that's the only one we seem to practice? and, ironically, if Jesus were walking the streets today, looking like he did, (except maybe a gucci suit and a shave) he might look a lot more like a Muslim than an 'merican. And let's not forget that he was killed for basically going against the status quo practice of his religion at the time.

Peace

karl

PAUL SOUZA

Trad climber
Clovis, CA
Aug 17, 2010 - 03:50am PT
The funny thing is that this "mosque" isn't a mosque and isn't at ground zero.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 17, 2010 - 11:27am PT
What liberals don't get, and it is almost entirely what created the crazy wack job right in this country, is that sometimes you do still have to fight.


And your idea of a cause to fight is that somebody wants to put a religious community center in an area where worship already takes place and where theres is already a mosque that predates the twin towers within a few blocks?

"Having to fight" has a bad habit of creating future more needs to fight. Like when the CIA deposed an elected president of Iran in the 50s to protect oil interests and then they had a revolution to get rid of the despotic puppet that we put in there to rule.

So ironic because we supported Nuclear power for Iran when the Shah was in power.

We step on somebody's dick in an unforgivable way, we forget our offense, and then think we need to fight when friction shows up later on.

Here the bottom line. Those terrorists who flew planes into buildings on 9-11 knew that damage alone wouldn't do much against the US. The plan only works if we go to war with 1 billion Muslims over it. The strongest way to defeat the terrorists is to happily embrace moderate Islam with respect and religious freedom.

and fearing Sharia law in the US is a laughable prospect, on par with thinking if gay marriage is allowed, that all the guys will go gay for easy sex and our population will shrink.

Peace

Karl
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Aug 17, 2010 - 11:45am PT
Hey Rad man,
I'm usually with you on so many levels...butt who's saying if a mosque or whatever is going to be built (close to butt not on) 'ground zero' is going to have us all following Sharia law...come on man that's a connections that is miles off-sheesh.

And yep, sometime you gotta fight. No question there, but knott all fighting is with a sword, know-what-I-mean?

Though, sometimes the sword makes for a pretty impressive point (pun knott necessarily intended)...
I just think people are too darn paranoid...like the big bad wolf is knocking on the f**kin door...ya right.
Those motherf--kers that caused that sh*t don't want to build, they want to destroy.
They are the enemy.
Religious intolerance is the enemy.

...and I'm not even a religious person.

I know I'll never change (no matter what I say/write/whatever) minds like Blue and some of the others here-and frankly I don't give a shite, people have the right to speak up about what they believe and what is important to them, butt I know too that once crap like this starts who knows what excuses they'll come up with next to exclude whatever or whoever.

Like I wrote before, too many Americans paid big time for a mosque/church/temple/ whatever to be placed in a community where the people of that community choose. They aren't planning on building it up yer azz...or Bluey's either.

Maybe a little understanding (okay a lot) on all sides can keep this sh*t from happening again.

Cheers,
DD




Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Aug 17, 2010 - 12:01pm PT
Ya please go climbing...for me...

It's 9:20pm
75+% humidity
90F.degrees

pretty much sucks, though I did play 2 hours of Ultimate after work today...
felt like playing in a sauna.

Oh the joy...

Cheers,
DD
Mason

Trad climber
Yay Area
Aug 17, 2010 - 12:18pm PT
Particularly funny, ESPECIALLY at 3:58.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/mon-august-16-2010-emma-thompson
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 17, 2010 - 12:23pm PT
I do not beleive that any moderate Muslim would want a Mosque at ground zero. Even Obama had to say he wasn't commenting on the wisdom of it.

It's still my understanding that this group has already been worshipping in the area. They are from there, not some outside group trying to make a statement. Can somebody show otherwise?

Plus, remember, there already IS another mosque pretty close to Ground Zero and has been since the 70s

Peace

karl
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Aug 17, 2010 - 12:32pm PT
Mason that was pretty funny
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 17, 2010 - 12:34pm PT
What liberals don't get, and it is almost entirely what created the crazy wack job right in this country, is that sometimes you do still have to fight.

That's funny, radical. Considering all of the recent neocon leaders were draft dodgers during their war.

Here you go, Osama Bin Laden 5 years after the neocons went after him:

Tojo, 5 years after the liberal FDR went after him:
Roger Breedlove

climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
Aug 17, 2010 - 01:17pm PT
After watching a part of the Jon Stewart show, Glen Beck is my new hero.

Fifty-three percent of Manhattanites side with their mayor in favoring the Cordoba Center's construction; only 31% of voters disapprove of the planned center, according to a Marist poll on 10 August 2010.
Barbarian

Trad climber
The great white north, eh?
Aug 17, 2010 - 01:29pm PT
I was going to chime in with my thoughts, but remembered that I am trying not to respond to political threads.

Please feel free to carry on without me....
Mason

Trad climber
Yay Area
Aug 17, 2010 - 01:38pm PT
Yes, Glen Beck definitely has earned some points in my book, even if it was by accident.

Jon Stewart is a genius.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 17, 2010 - 02:32pm PT
Radical says:
But not everything is an intellectual discussion. Often on the school yard or in prison or climbing, in medicine, when meeting a predator in nature you need to do what your instincts tell you, even what your emotions tell you or you f*#king get eaten and die- end of story.

Wow, that is quite an amazing statement. I wonder if you have any idea of what that does to your credibility as a health care provider. In a profession in which it is held high, that we will always try to be non-judgmental of a patient, what are you advocating?

That is a person is judged to be non-deserving by YOU, they will get sub-standard care? If someone is cut by putting their hand through a window, and you think that they deserved it because they were drunk.....do you not sew up their arm? Or more "plausibly deniably", you do a sh*t-poor job so that they have a massive scar that causes them pain every day of their lives? It sounds like you are advocating taking on the role of "enforcer" of what you think are "God's laws", because your INFALLABLE instincts and emotions tell you what to do?

What you don't appear to understand, is that THAT is exactly how we end up along the path of anarchy, where you backslap your bitch "because she deserves it". Just ask the people with those attitudes, they are also living by their instincts and emotions. I'm sure you run into them every day.

Radical also says:
But more than that- this is school yard sh#t. I like freedom, i like the principle of America and I don't like f*#king Sharia law, treating my people like sbit and not allowing woman any rights. Yes, if you want Sharia law in 100 years, cause expansion of idea and thought is what all religion is about(ie. catholics, evangelicals, ect) then look like a pussy, a pussy to the world and allow a damn Mosque at Ground zero. Just like in the school yard you will have all kind of a-holes coming to take a piece of you...real fast...

What you are basically saying in your rant, is that you do not believe that the principles of democracy can stand up to Sharia law, that the principles of America are too weak in comparison, and you have no faith that those principles have any real power. You want to discard them for "school yard sh*t"--which boils down to, "might makes right", I guess.

But rather than think like a child, a more mature approach might be better:

"When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me."
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Aug 17, 2010 - 02:46pm PT
I just don't get it. It's not freedom of religion if you are only free to practice a religion that's on the approved list.

Dave

edit to add:

Lost of gays are beaten by Christians. Any complaints about building catholic churches?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Aug 17, 2010 - 02:46pm PT
You are a simpleton.
AKDOG

Mountain climber
Anchorage, AK
Aug 17, 2010 - 03:54pm PT
I for one find it amazing how alot of you come on in defense of a mosque, which represents a religion completely counter productive towards american values and ideals....You like freedoms?? Freedoms have little or nothing to do with islamification. Do we want our gays beat up or hung in the streets?? Women to be second class?? Alot of the ideals you all seem to be in favor of are not welcome in the muslim world....

Word, freedom of relgion also means freedom from relgion if you don't believe.
PAUL SOUZA

Trad climber
Clovis, CA
Aug 17, 2010 - 03:56pm PT
There is no mosque being built.

lol
Gene

Social climber
Aug 17, 2010 - 04:10pm PT
Thanks, Ron Anderson.

I've changed my mind on this proposed mosque. We should only allow religions with values that conform to the current majority opinion in this country.

Get real.

g
Roger Breedlove

climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
Aug 17, 2010 - 04:12pm PT

Ron, your statements about Muslims applied to all Muslims the world over are not right. Besides being a disservice to that faith, it is a great disservice to our country to hold onto such factually incorrect views.

Turkey is almost 100% Muslim, and it is a wide mix of everything between secular Western beliefs to fundamentalist. Indonesia is secular and the largest Muslim country in the world. Saudi Arabia is 100% Muslim, very conservative, the source of some of the worst Islamic teachings--the Wahhabi sect--and the country of most of the 9/11 terrorist, yet has fought off its internal terrorist with heavy handed police work and the outrage of its citizens that terrorist were in their midst.


From a Western perspective all the criticisms of and resistance to radical Islamic belief are fair. But most Muslims agree.

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Aug 17, 2010 - 04:30pm PT
Ground Zero Imam Helped FBI with Counterterrorism Efforts:


In March 2003, federal officials were being criticized for disrespecting the rights of Arab-Americans in their efforts to crack down on domestic security threats in the post-9/11 environment. Hoping to calm the growing tempers, FBI officials in New York hosted a forum on ways to deal with Muslim and Arab-Americans without exacerbating social tensions. The bureau wanted to provide agents with "a clear picture," said Kevin Donovan, director of the FBI's New York office.

Brought in to speak that morning -- at the office building located just blocks from Ground Zero -- was one of the city's most respected Muslim voices: Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf. The iman offered what was for him a familiar sermon to those in attendance. "Islamic extremism for the majority of Muslims is an oxymoron," he said. "It is a fundamental contradiction in terms."

It was, by contemporaneous news accounts, a successful lecture.

Flash forward six-and-a-half years, and Feisal Abdul Rauf occupies a far different place in the political consciousness. The iman behind a controversial proposal to build an Islamic cultural center near those same FBI offices has been called "a radical Muslim," a "militant Islamist" and, simply, the "enemy" by conservative critics. His Cordoba House project, meanwhile, has been framed as a conduit for Hamas to funnel money to domestic terrorist operations.

For those who actually know or have worked with the imam, the descriptions are frighteningly -- indeed, depressingly -- unhinged from reality. The Feisal Abdul Rauf they know, spent the past decade fighting against the very same cultural divisiveness and religious-based paranoia that currently surrounds him.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/17/ground-zero-imam-helped-f_n_685071.html
Bertrand

climber
California
Aug 17, 2010 - 04:37pm PT
Cabeza, you said...

Don't you think it would be the essence of who we are as Americans to allow freedom of religion?

THIS is why we argue... We are talking about two totally different things. Any eighth grader knows that the Imam's group has a right to build the mosque. BUT THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE...

The issue is how incredibly disrespectful it would be to do so. Like many have said, sensitivity was shown when the Catholic church was considered, and then rejected near the Auschwitz site. Sensitivity would be shown to Muslims if in a similar situation. The problem we're arguing is that so many (often the same who think our country owes apologies to the rest of the world) think we Americans just need to continue debasing ourselves, and that no sensitivity to American values or the friends and family of 9/11 victims need to be shown.

It's not racist or un-American to expect the same sensitivity to our wounds as we strive to show for others. And that has nothing to do with religious freedom or racism.
Bertrand

climber
California
Aug 17, 2010 - 04:48pm PT
Fifty-three percent of Manhattanites side with their mayor in favoring the Cordoba Center's construction; only 31% of voters disapprove of the planned center, according to a Marist poll on 10 August 2010.

And how many of those polled Manhattenites are Americans?
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Aug 17, 2010 - 04:53pm PT
Sensitivity continues to be mentioned (and I mentioned it too).

So, what are the thoughts about Glen Beck and Palin's proposed rally on the anniversary of, and exact location of, MLK's famous talk?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/16/AR2010081605042.html?nav=hcmodule

Clearly they have a right to do this (fact). But is it wise or sensitive (opinion)? Is this somehow different than the so-called Mosque that is proposed?
Roger Breedlove

climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
Aug 17, 2010 - 04:53pm PT
As a proud American, I am against letting a relatively few Muslim wackjobs affect how I think about the 1 billion Muslims in the world. Just as I am against letting a relatively few American wackjobs affect how the rest of the world thinks about us.

Every Muslim I know from anywhere in the world is appalled that terrorist have highjacked their religion.

The comparison to the Catholic nuns at Auschwitz is specious in my mind.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 17, 2010 - 04:54pm PT
Incredibly poor taste? As in the Westboro Baptist "Church", perhaps?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church

A hell of a lot of tasteless things are done by all religious groups, and sometimes things that are worse than tasteless. Aren't you glad to have a constitution to protect you from them?

As for the Cordoba Centre, a clear majority of New Yorkers are OK with it. In a sense, it already exists, but not on the same site. There's no question that those involved do not promote or support fundamentalist "Islam" - quite the contrary. It is over two long Manhattan blocks (nearly a kilometre, I believe) from the former site of the World Trade Centre. If there were any skeletons in the closets of those promoting the centre - suspect funding or supporters, or that sort of thing - we'd long since have known about it.

The shrieking of the fundamentalist right on this serves only to further box them in as unconstitutional extremists.

The sad thing is that once the centre is built, it will probably have to be heavily guarded, to prevent attacks by fanatics of all stripes, including Muslims.
Mason

Trad climber
Yay Area
Aug 17, 2010 - 04:58pm PT
Shack wrote:

BTW: I do believe under the US Constitution and Federal law , they have every right to build a mosque wherever they want, even if it shows poor taste, bad judgement and offends many Americans.

Just to be fair here, I guess you don't see any problems with offending Muslims by drawing pictures of Mohammad with a bomb on his turban, or perhaps flushing Korans down the toilet in Gitmo or Abu Ghraib or the latest:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100816/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians_facebook

gtowey

Sport climber
Sunnyvale, CA
Aug 17, 2010 - 05:06pm PT
As a proud American, I am against letting a relatively few Muslim wackjobs affect how I think about the 1 billion Muslims in the world. Just as I am against letting a relatively few American wackjobs affect how the rest of the world thinks about us.

Quoted for truth. This ends the discussion =)
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 17, 2010 - 05:06pm PT
Gene

Social climber
Aug 17, 2010 - 05:19pm PT
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/17/opinion/17dalrymple.html?src=me&ref=general

Please read this opinion piece. Thanks.

g
Roger Breedlove

climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
Aug 17, 2010 - 05:28pm PT
Gene, this is a pretty good for the folks who need to get off the idea that there is one form of Islam. I had no idea that the guy behind this was a Sufi.

Here is the text in your link:

August 16, 2010
The Muslims in the Middle
By WILLIAM DALRYMPLE
New Delhi

PRESIDENT OBAMA’S eloquent endorsement on Friday of a planned Islamic cultural center near the World Trade Center, followed by his apparent retreat the next day, was just one of many paradoxes at the heart of the increasingly impassioned controversy.

We have seen the Anti-Defamation League, an organization dedicated to ending “unjust and unfair discrimination,” seek to discriminate against American Muslims. We have seen Newt Gingrich depict the organization behind the center — the Cordoba Initiative, which is dedicated to “improving Muslim-West relations” and interfaith dialogue — as a “deliberately insulting” and triumphalist force attempting to built a monument to Muslim victory near the site of the twin towers.

Most laughably, we have seen politicians like Rick Lazio, a Republican candidate for New York governor, question whether Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the principal figure behind the project, might have links to “radical organizations.”

The problem with such claims goes far beyond the fate of a mosque in downtown Manhattan. They show a dangerously inadequate understanding of the many divisions, complexities and nuances within the Islamic world — a failure that hugely hampers Western efforts to fight violent Islamic extremism and to reconcile Americans with peaceful adherents of the world’s second-largest religion.

Most of us are perfectly capable of making distinctions within the Christian world. The fact that someone is a Boston Roman Catholic doesn’t mean he’s in league with Irish Republican Army bomb makers, just as not all Orthodox Christians have ties to Serbian war criminals or Southern Baptists to the murderers of abortion doctors.

Yet many of our leaders have a tendency to see the Islamic world as a single, terrifying monolith. Had the George W. Bush administration been more aware of the irreconcilable differences between the Salafist jihadists of Al Qaeda and the secular Baathists of Saddam Hussein’s Iraq, the United States might never have blundered into a disastrous war, and instead kept its focus on rebuilding post-Taliban Afghanistan while the hearts and minds of the Afghans were still open to persuasion.

Feisal Abdul Rauf of the Cordoba Initiative is one of America’s leading thinkers of Sufism, the mystical form of Islam, which in terms of goals and outlook couldn’t be farther from the violent Wahhabism of the jihadists. His videos and sermons preach love, the remembrance of God (or “zikr”) and reconciliation. His slightly New Agey rhetoric makes him sound, for better or worse, like a Muslim Deepak Chopra. But in the eyes of Osama bin Laden and the Taliban, he is an infidel-loving, grave-worshiping apostate; they no doubt regard him as a legitimate target for assassination.

For such moderate, pluralistic Sufi imams are the front line against the most violent forms of Islam. In the most radical parts of the Muslim world, Sufi leaders risk their lives for their tolerant beliefs, every bit as bravely as American troops on the ground in Baghdad and Kabul do. Sufism is the most pluralistic incarnation of Islam — accessible to the learned and the ignorant, the faithful and nonbelievers — and is thus a uniquely valuable bridge between East and West.

The great Sufi saints like the 13th-century Persian poet Rumi held that all existence and all religions were one, all manifestations of the same divine reality. What was important was not the empty ritual of the mosque, church, synagogue or temple, but the striving to understand that divinity can best be reached through the gateway of the human heart: that we all can find paradise within us, if we know where to look. In some ways Sufism, with its emphasis on love rather than judgment, represents the New Testament of Islam.

While the West remains blind to the divisions and distinctions within Islam, the challenge posed by the Sufi vision of the faith is not lost on the extremists. This was shown most violently on July 2, when the Pakistani Taliban organized a double-suicide bombing of the Data Darbar, the largest Sufi shrine in Lahore, Pakistan’s second-largest city. The attack took place on a Thursday night, when the shrine was at its busiest; 42 people were killed and 175 were injured.

This was only the latest in a series of assaults against Pakistan’s Sufis. In May, Peeru’s Cafe in Lahore, a cultural center where I had recently performed with a troupe of Sufi musicians, was bombed in the middle of its annual festival. An important site in a tribal area of the northwest — the tomb of Haji Sahib of Turangzai, a Sufi persecuted under British colonial rule for his social work — has been forcibly turned into a Taliban headquarters. Two shrines near Peshawar, the mausoleum of Bahadar Baba and the shrine of Abu Saeed Baba, have been destroyed by rocket fire.

Symbolically, however, the most devastating Taliban attack occurred last spring at the shrine of the 17th-century poet-saint Rahman Baba, at the foot of the Khyber Pass in northwest Pakistan. For centuries, the complex has been a place for musicians and poets to gather, and Rahman Baba’s Sufi verses had long made him the national poet of the Pashtuns living on both sides of the Afghanistan-Pakistan border. “I am a lover, and I deal in love,” wrote the saint. “Sow flowers,/ so your surroundings become a garden./ Don’t sow thorns; for they will prick your feet./ We are all one body./ Whoever tortures another, wounds himself.”

THEN, about a decade ago, a Saudi-financed religious school, or madrasa, was built at the end of the path leading to the shrine. Soon its students took it upon themselves to halt what they see as the un-Islamic practices of Rahman Baba’s admirers. When I last visited it in 2003, the shrine-keeper, Tila Mohammed, described how young students were coming regularly to complain that his shrine was a center of idolatry and immorality.

“My family have been singing here for generations,” he told me. “But now these madrasa students come and tell us that what we do is wrong. They tell women to stay at home. This used to be a place where people came to get peace of mind. Now when they come here they just encounter more problems.”

Then, one morning in early March 2009, a group of Pakistani Taliban arrived at the shrine before dawn and placed dynamite packages around the squinches supporting the shrine’s dome. In the ensuing explosion, the mausoleum was destroyed, but at least nobody was killed. The Pakistani Taliban quickly took credit, blaming the shrine’s administrators for allowing women to pray and seek healing there.

The good news is that Sufis, though mild, are also resilient. While the Wahhabis have become dominant in northern Pakistan ever since we chose to finance their fight against the Soviets in Afghanistan, things are different in Sindh Province in southern Pakistan. Sufis are putting up a strong resistance on behalf of the pluralist, composite culture that emerged in the course of a thousand years of cohabitation between Hinduism and Islam.

Last year, when I visited a shrine of the saint Lal Shahbaz Qalandar in the town of Sehwan, I was astonished by the strength and the openness of the feelings against those puritan mullahs who criticize as heresy all homage to Sufi saints.

“I feel that it is my duty to protect both the Sufi saints, just as they have protected me,” one woman told me. “Today in our Pakistan there are so many of these mullahs and Wahhabis who say that to pay respect to the saints in their shrines is heresy. Those hypocrites! They sit there reading their law books and arguing about how long their beards should be, and fail to listen to the true message of the prophet.”

There are many like her; indeed, until recently Sufism was the dominant form of Islam in South Asia. And her point of view shows why the West would do well to view Sufis as natural allies against the extremists. A 2007 study by the RAND Corporation found that Sufis’ open, intellectual interpretation of Islam makes them ideal “partners in the effort to combat Islamist extremism.”

Sufism is an entirely indigenous, deeply rooted resistance movement against violent Islamic radicalism. Whether it can be harnessed to a political end is not clear. But the least we can do is to encourage the Sufis in our own societies. Men like Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf should be embraced as vital allies, and we should have only contempt for those who, through ignorance or political calculation, attempt to conflate them with the extremists.


William Dalrymple is the author, most recently, of “Nine Lives: In Search of the Sacred in Modern India.”

Bertrand

climber
California
Aug 17, 2010 - 07:11pm PT
The comparison to the Catholic nuns at Auschwitz is specious in my mind.

How so? Both are legitimate religions with millions of followers, including the benevolent and dangerous. And both Islam and Christianity, though not directly on trial, were rallying idealogies to those committing the atrocities in question. The convent was canceled due to this and due to its conspicuous proximity to Auschwitz...why not follow that lead and cancel the mosque plans?

Anderson's analogy of the Enola Gay at Hiroshima hits even closer to the mark. How about a 300' flag pole with a huge Star Spangled Banner right on the spot where Fat Boy landed?

You have to scratch your head about why anyone would want to do this. It's even more disturbing when considering the Imam's comments about us bringing 9/11 onto ourselves.
Gene

Social climber
Aug 17, 2010 - 07:17pm PT
Anderson's analogy of the Enola Gay at Hiroshima hits even closer to the mark. How about a 300' flag pole with a huge Star Spangled Banner right on the spot where Fat Boy landed?

Fat Boy was dropped on Nagasaki. Little Boy destroyed Hiroshima. But what do troublesome facts have to do with credibility?

g
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Aug 17, 2010 - 07:21pm PT
I understand the proposed Mosque would NOT be built at "ground zero".

In fact, the location is somewhere more than two blocks away from the outside limit of the ground zero attack location.


How far is far enough to build a Mosque?

Six blocks?

10 blocks?

18 blocks?

the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 17, 2010 - 07:24pm PT
The above analogies don't hold water.

A decent analogy is: would it be ok to build a Catholic Church a few blocks from the Centennial Olympic Park in Atlanta?

If you are opposed to a mosque a few blocks from ground zero, then you must oppose a Catholic church near another terror attack from a nutjob from that religion.... right??
Gene

Social climber
Aug 17, 2010 - 07:28pm PT
You have to scratch your head about why anyone would want to do this. It's even more disturbing when considering the Imam's comments about us bringing 9/11 onto ourselves.


He's got company about "bringing 9/11 onto ourselves."
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 17, 2010 - 07:29pm PT
I don't think anybody is opposed to the building of a mosque in a different spot. You have to wonder why they are insistent on going against public opinion to put it where they are planning.

Don't they claim to be trying to promote tolerance and understanding? A good way to do that would be to heed the will of the public.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 17, 2010 - 07:33pm PT
FWIW, the site is quite some distance away from "ground zero" (two long Manhattan blocks, I saw somewhere), and is clearly supported by public opinion. It seems that some believe that anywhere in Manhattan is "too close", and that people or politicians from outside New York should be able to impose a decision.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 17, 2010 - 07:34pm PT
and is supported by public opinion

link?

Why will they not divulge who is funding it?

Why did the Imam have different titles for his book in Indonesia and the English version here (much different title)?

Why does the media not probe this?
Gene

Social climber
Aug 17, 2010 - 07:35pm PT
You have to wonder why they are insistent on going against public opinion....


Because public opinios are not what drives people of faith. Do you conform your religious beliefs to the latest Gallup Poll?

g
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 17, 2010 - 07:37pm PT
No Gene, but this isn't a mosque, right? It's a "cultural" center to "promote tolerance and understanding", right?

It's all bullshit!
Gene

Social climber
Aug 17, 2010 - 07:37pm PT
it seems some are confused as to the WIDE reaching effects of 911 in the fact that the people who were murdered were from across the US. It was an attack against the US not simply new york...


Please extend/continue that thought.........
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 17, 2010 - 07:37pm PT
So much for relying on the several quotes upthread about 53% supporting the project. Here's the source, a poll only of people in New York.
http://maristpoll.marist.edu/wp-content/misc/nycpolls/c100728/Bloomberg_RV/Construction_of_Mosque_Near_World_Trade_Center_Site.htm
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 17, 2010 - 07:40pm PT
Here ya go Anders;

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/113747-poll-public-strongly-opposes-ground-zero-mosque-
Gene

Social climber
Aug 17, 2010 - 07:41pm PT
Bluey and Ron,

Just what are you afraid of? Please let me know. I'm kinda slow on these things and I haven't a clue about what bothers you. Please be specific and use easily understandable words. I just don't get it. Help a poor bro. Thanks.

Gene
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Aug 17, 2010 - 07:41pm PT
http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/politics/4332-gov-christie-warns-republicans-over-ground-zero-mosque-flak

New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie, considered a rising star and possible presidential contender in the Republican Party, is advising Republicans to back away from their heated opposition to a Muslim center two blocks from New York's "Ground Zero." Christie has called on both parties to stop making the issue a "political football."

The first-term New Jersey governor said Monday that politicians, both locally and nationally, may be overreacting to the planned construction of an Islamic cultural center just two blocks form the remains of the World Trade Center towers that were leveled by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. He warned that many Republicans appear to be painting "all of Islam" with a broad brush, equating Islam with radical, militant anti-American extremists.
Roger Breedlove

climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
Aug 17, 2010 - 07:44pm PT
That is so like a republican! What a bunch of bullshit!!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 17, 2010 - 07:53pm PT
Bluering, Ron, Radical, Bertrand......you must be TERRIBLY embarrassed and put off by what our culture has done.......




American Society of Friends memorial community center built in Hiroshima:

http://peace.maripo.com/x_japan_hiroshima.htm
=

Memorial Cathedral for World Peace, 4-42 Nobori-cho, Naka-ku, Hiroshima (Japan). Built in 1954 on the initiative of German Jesuit Hugo Enomiya-Lassalle [1898-1990], who witnessed the the atomic bomb in 1945. One of the largest Roman Catholic churches in Asia. Many countries contributed to the cost of construction. Four bells in the 150ft / 46m tower were presented by the German town of Bochum, the organ by Cologne. and the bronze doors by Düsseldorf. The altar was presented by Belgium.

==
Hiroshima Peace Memorial Museum

In 1981, the late Pope John Paul ll visited here to make “Peace Appeal”. To commemorate his visit, this monument was erected. A part of his “Peace Appeal” is inscribed.
=

World Friendship Center (WFC), 8-10 Higashi Kan-on, Nishi-ku, Hiroshima (Japan). Founded on 20th anniversary of the bomb by American Barbara Leonard Reynolds [1915-1990] who also founded the Peace Resources Center (PRC) at Wilmington College of Ohio (USA) in 1975. "Not only a 'home away from home' for travelers to Hiroshima, it is a place where local Hiroshima residents volunteer their hospitality of peace in a variety of activities." Supported by Brethren Volunteer Service (BVS) & by the American Committee of the WFC, currently chaired by Mary Ann Albert of Warsaw, Indiana (USA).
==

Peace Cairn, Hiroshima (Japan). Made of stone from Ben Nevis (Scotland). Donated by the cities of Dudley (England) & Fort William (Scotland).
===

"Reconcilation," International Conference Center Hiroshima, Peace Memorial Park, Hiroshima (Japan). Statue by Josefina de Vasconcellos [1905-2005]. One of four copies of an original statue at University of Bradford (England).


International Peace Garden, Peace Memorial Park, Hiroshima (Japan). Near the Peace Bell. One of many International Peace Gardens in different countries. Presented to Hiroshima by The Hague (Netherlands).


Norman Cousins Monument, in front of Hiroshima Peace Memorial Museum, Hiroshima (Japan). Honors achievements of Norman Cousins [1915-1990], "including promotion of the moral adoption project for A-bomb & war orphans, his efforts in helping female A-bomb survivors receive keloid treatment in the US, & his continued appeal for elimination of nuclear weapons."
==

Les Portes de la Paix / Gates of Peace, Peace Boulevard (opposite Peace Memorial Museum), Hiroshma (Japan). Ten gates representing the 9 circles of Hell in Dante's Inferno, plus Hiroshima. By French artist Clara Halter.


"Tiles painted in Berkeley, California, for inclusion in a World Wall for Peace (WWFP) in Hiroshima...are currently on display in the International Room of the Hiroshima Museum [sic], and are awaiting a site where they can be permanently installed."
=

Barbara Reynolds Monument, Peace Memorial Park, Hiroshima (Japan). Proposed to be adjacent to the Norman Cousins and Marcel Junod monuments (seen at left in image). Proposed inscription: "I, too, am a Hibakusha. Hibakushas, that is the start of my peacemaking and everything. My heart is always with Hiroshima. I pray that humankind will hear and that their hearts may be moved to renounce war and preparations for war forever." Barbara Leonard Reynolds [1915-1990] founded the World Friendship Center (WFC) in Hiroshima and the Peace Resource Centter (PRC) in Wilmington, Ohio (USA).
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 17, 2010 - 07:54pm PT
a call to prayer from the world trade rubble: islamic dawa from the heart of america, post 9/11.
Muslim version of the Imam's book.

What’s Right with Islam Is What’s Right with America
English version title

Why have such different titles?

Gene, I fear a certain brand of Islam that refers to Christians as infidels getting a foothold in this country. A brand of Islam that removes a woman's clitoris because they feel she should no feel sexual pleasure.

THAT is un-American. I don't refer to muslim friends as inferior or infidels. I have respect for them because they're quite decent people. But they is a nasty brand out there (usually funded by Saudis) that cannot be allowed here. We already have enough fundamentalism here already. The crazy Christians, the wahabbiests, etc...
Bertrand

climber
California
Aug 17, 2010 - 07:59pm PT
The above analogies don't hold water.

A decent analogy is: would it be ok to build a Catholic Church a few blocks from the Centennial Olympic Park in Atlanta?

If you are opposed to a mosque a few blocks from ground zero, then you must oppose a Catholic church near another terror attack from a nutjob from that religion.... right??

That is a terrible analogy, Fet. Magnitude of destruction and death is one thing that comes to mind. 9/11 changed everything and, as Gene points exemplifies, even has Americans considering that we deserved to be attacked. Nailbomb attacks at the '98 Olympics are insignificant in comparison.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 17, 2010 - 08:00pm PT

The Cordoba Initiative website - the Cordoba House project is part of it.
http://www.cordobainitiative.org/
Roger Breedlove

climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
Aug 17, 2010 - 08:01pm PT
Here is the problem with the A Bomb analogy.

The American military, under orders of the American President, dropped the bomb.

The analogy that you are proposing would require that an emissary of Osama bin Laden was building the center. That is the implicit assumption that the A bomb analogy assumes, wrongly.
Gene

Social climber
Aug 17, 2010 - 08:03pm PT
Gene, I fear a certain brand of Islam that refers to Christians as infidels getting a foothold in this country.


Then you are barking up the wrong tree, Bro. Suspend belief for a moment or two and let's jump ahead three or four years to just after the opening of the Cordova Center. You gotta believe that the NYPD, CIA, NSA, JDL, and MLB will have that building wired 15 days to Sabbath with mikes, cameras, retina ID gear, etc. Think maybe?

Re: certain brand of Islam that refers to Christians as infidels getting a foothold in this country.... What better way than give the Big Finger to those who may, just may, want to be inside the tent pissing out rather than outside the tent pissing in?

If the purpose of the Cordova Center is to support radical Islam, I suggest that American intolerance has helped that plan succeed.

For the paronoid out there who may read this, remember: Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer.

g
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 17, 2010 - 08:05pm PT
Gene, I fear a certain brand of Islam that refers to Christians as infidels getting a foothold in this country. A brand of Islam that removes a woman's clitoris because they feel she should no feel sexual pleasure.

THAT is un-American. I don't refer to muslim friends as inferior or infidels.......

NOW WE'RE GETTING TO IT! Fear

But you DO refer to non-friends that you don't know, with all sorts of vile names and accusations. Is the problem with the muslims, or is the problem with you??
Bertrand

climber
California
Aug 17, 2010 - 08:07pm PT


He's got company about "bringing 9/11 onto ourselves."

Not amongst respectable grown ups.

Sure there are plenty of coffee-shop fukwits out there who think that the more self-loathe they generate toward America's unique place in the world, the purer their souls get, along with all other kinds of America-sucks bullshiz. Luckily most people who still think that way are under 18 and have more time to learn about the world before coming of voting age.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 17, 2010 - 08:07pm PT
Oh please, Ken, I was using his term.

and;
But you DO refer to non-friends that you don't know, with all sorts of vile names and accusations. Is the problem with the muslims, or is the problem with you??

That's beacause I judge people on their merits. Many Muslims I know are cool. Radical commie libs, not so much.
Gene

Social climber
Aug 17, 2010 - 08:10pm PT
He's got company about "bringing 9/11 onto ourselves.

Sorry. I neglected to post the Jerry Falwell view on the reason for 9/11.

My bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK_hYsCkDH4

g

EDIT:
Not amongst respectable grown ups.


We agree!!!!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 17, 2010 - 08:10pm PT
I very much liked the op/ed piece from the New York Times that Gene and Roger posted. It accorded with my thinking - the people behind the Cordoba Centre have as much to fear from fanatic Muslims as they do from fanatic Americans, of whatever or no belief. Islam, whatever the claims of some of its followers, is no more monolithic than Christianity or other religions. It doesn't even have a pope or high priest, who claims to boss everyone around, and hasn't had a true caliph (political/spiritual leader) since the Abbasid collapse in 1262, if then. And the Sufis are a very well-known branch of Islam, going back centuries.
Jeremy Handren

climber
NV
Aug 17, 2010 - 08:16pm PT
"Radical commie libs, not so much."

What about the fascists, Pinkos and tree huggers..... c'mon Bluering are you getting soft on thems lefties.
Any true conservative knows that its essential to cram as many idiotic republagumby epithets as possible into any given sentence.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 17, 2010 - 08:25pm PT
Ron:
I dont kniow if youve noticed, but America has been going down hill for quite some time.

Yeah, it started about 1980.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 17, 2010 - 08:29pm PT
I work with 2 currently, as#@&%e. Another is a regular climbing buddy.

In fact he posts here too. Mason. I hesitated to post that prior to this because I felt he may be against it, but he should be all for it. He's a good guy.

I pull this down if he insists, but he should be proud. Just climbed with him last weekend and climbing with he and his Badass!!!!!!! GF next weekend.

Whatever...

DMT, I usually love ya, but you can be a f*#king dick sometimes...the kind you accuse me of being.
Gene

Social climber
Aug 17, 2010 - 08:33pm PT
I work with 2 currently, as#@&%e. Another is a regular climbing buddy.


So why don't you give him/them and the rest of their "kind" the respect to worship, if they so choose, at any place they want to?

g
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 17, 2010 - 08:38pm PT
So why don't you give him/them and the rest of their "kind" the respect to worship, if they so choose, at any place they want to?

See cragman's above post...I agree.
corniss chopper

Mountain climber
san jose, ca
Aug 17, 2010 - 08:42pm PT
Freedom of religion , freedom of speech - Sure is nice.
But they can't be allowed to build a Islamic mosque at ground zero
just like you can't yell fire in a crowded theater or have Neo-nazi's
march through a Jewish event. Someone will get hurt or killed.

Rights come with responsibilities.

Zoning codes have stopped the building of many churches in certain locations in America while letting them be erected elsewhere.

New York City has stopped Walmart from having a store inside the city by
zoning shenanigans. This mosque can be moved elsewhere by the same method.


http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/195098/new_york_city_says_no_to_walmart_store.html

Gene

Social climber
Aug 17, 2010 - 08:43pm PT
Cragman,

Like on the other side of the tracks? Should we limit the rights of a billion for the actions of a few? No!!!! A central tenent of Christianity (and humanity) is reconcilliation. My goodness! Love our brothers... Do unto others.... How can we bring them to Jesus is we preclude engaging them and prohibit their presence in our neighborhoods?

Gene

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 17, 2010 - 08:43pm PT
Mecca is the holy city of Islam. I don't think that any Christian church has ever been permitted there, and doubt that there have been any synagogues there for centuries, although there probably were at the time of the prophet.

New York City isn't a holy city, at least not to any major religion. It is one of the capital cities of the world.

There are synagogues, mosques, and various brands of Christian churches in Jerusalem, at or near the Dome of the Rock. All in uncomfortable co-existence, which is probably just as well.

There must be mosques and synagogues in Rome, but I don't know if any are near to the Vatican.

We're arguing about symbolism, which is a challenging thing to do even with sound information.
Gene

Social climber
Aug 17, 2010 - 08:48pm PT
Buidl the mosque on the other side of town.


That's chicken poop! If a mosque is good enough for X miles outta town, it's good enough for where it's proposed.

Gene

EDIT:
DON'T POUR SALT IN THE WOUND!!!!!


The wound was caused by people not even remotely connected with Cordova.
Gene

Social climber
Aug 17, 2010 - 08:53pm PT
build it farther away from that spot! Easy.


Which diminishes the Constitutional protections of us all.

You can worship how/who you want, but public opinion will tell you where. Sorry. I can’t buy that.

Gene
AKDOG

Mountain climber
Anchorage, AK
Aug 17, 2010 - 08:55pm PT
We will continue to go downhill under the current administration in the area of tolerance.

When do we start drawing the line to protect the lives of our citizens?


The line has been drawn, you can’t make a list of people you want to kill or you go to jail. You don't need a mosque or church to be a kook.

“Prosecutors alleged that Paul Rockwood, also known as "Bilal," converted to Islam about a decade ago and began studying the teachings of American-born cleric Anwar al-Awlaki, who has professed hatred for the United States and supports acts of terrorism. The couple then moved to King Salmon, where he worked for the National Weather Service.”

http://www.adn.com/2010/08/16/1412303/feds-alaska-couple-had-20-names.html
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 17, 2010 - 09:00pm PT
If someone claiming to be a Christian went into Mecca and blew up a building, killing thousands of Muslims, then a Christian church showed up 10 years later wanting to build a church, what do you think the reaction would be?

Imagine if a bunch of Saudis flew hijacked airplanes into buildings in New York, and in return we invaded Iraq. What do you think the reaction would be?
Gene

Social climber
Aug 17, 2010 - 09:04pm PT
its just THAT spot Gene, no others are an issue.

That, to my feeble mind, indicates that your arguement is based on emotion and not on respect of law, respect of human rights, respect of the Constitution, respect of religion, respect of assembly, etc.

Kind of like when Ford Frick thought we needed an asterisk after Roger Maris hit 61.
Gene

Social climber
Aug 17, 2010 - 09:21pm PT
City Planners would not allow a whorehouse to be built in the middle of a business district because it causes problems.

City Planners should not allow this mosque to be built in this spot because it will cause problems too.

This analogy is despicable and the epitome of misguided self-righteousness. SHAME!!!!

Gene
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 17, 2010 - 09:28pm PT
It is about what is right and wrong in regards to people's feelings.

No, that is about building Disneylands, made to create illusions that make people feel good.

How about instead of Make Believe, we Americans focus on Truth, Honesty, and practical ways of doing things.

Then we wouldn't be so sorry, when our allies and trainees like the Shah and Osama end up creating grief for us.

In this thread, there was a "lynch him" mentality for this guy, who is standing up for what we believe in. He was getting treated like our Montagnard allies in Vietnam, who we got to fight and die for us, then screwed when things got tough.
snowhazed

Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
Aug 17, 2010 - 09:29pm PT
There's already an open islamic prayer center that is closer to ground zero than the mosque will be. meh-ricans sucking on some media teat.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 17, 2010 - 09:36pm PT
No, that is about building Disneylands, made to create illusions that make people feel good.

How about instead of Make Believe, we Americans focus on Truth, Honesty, and practical ways of doing things.

You're a fool with that logic. The "practical" way of fighting the Afghani conflict would have been to bomb Western Pakistan and Eastern Afghanistan into the f*#king stone age!!!! With extreme prejudice.

We tried your way instead with pussyfooted ROE and attention to press reports instead of telling the Pres to STFU and PiSS OFF!!! We don't care!!! These bastards harboured the people who masterminded the attacks. We warned then, asked them to forfeit the perps, and they refused.

Guess what??? We still went light...Do you really want decisive action? I did. This sh#t would have ended a while ago...
Gene

Social climber
Aug 17, 2010 - 09:37pm PT
EDITED for bad manners on my part.

Gene
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 17, 2010 - 09:46pm PT
OMG!!!111 There are Japanese restaurants all around Pearl Harbor!!!111
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 17, 2010 - 09:57pm PT
The WTC wasn't attacked by a bunch of secular Iraqis, either.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 17, 2010 - 10:15pm PT
Not at all, cragman. It speaks to the heart of the matter. Inundate the sheep with bullsh#t, scare them with the boogeyman, and then pick their pockets clean. It's classic, it's the modern GOP way.
Gene

Social climber
Aug 17, 2010 - 10:16pm PT
Gary, the WTC was not attacked by a bunch of Muslim restaurant owners.


Can they (Muslim restaurant owners) worship in NYC? If not, what is the proper separation from GZ to an approved Muslim place of worship?

g
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 17, 2010 - 10:24pm PT
You people are way off topic here. It isn't Islam per se. It's a faction within them that feels putting mosques up is actually 'submitting' America to Islam. Most Muslims don't adhere to this crap.

my ggod climbing buddy, Mason, is a Kansas muslim raised by Afghani parents. They Kick ass!!!111!!!! BTW. I met them. His dad is awesome! His mom is too but I spent more time with his dad.

In the morining when I woke up and looked out my rig, they was his dad sitting alone waiting for everyone to wake up at like 7am. I went out and said hey, told hm told to come to my rig and I'd make coffee. We chatted and he remarked, "These people don't know how to camp, they sleep till 9am and don't get going till 11am".

I laughed, but in their defense they had non-climbers and kids and it was a kick-back trip. But I dug the guy's attitude.

The night before I went on a whiskey induced tirade that Islam and Christianity had more in common that in dispute. At least Islam as his dad and he sees it.

Good, honest, religious people. I like them.

Fanatics, not so much...

Cheers, Mason! Your parents rock, see you this weekend.

(I don't post this story to wear tolerance on my sleeve, but rather to tell all you race-baiters to STFU!!!!)
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 17, 2010 - 10:35pm PT
Goof, LEB, just make sh#t up, since reality isn't behind your position.
Bertrand

climber
California
Aug 17, 2010 - 11:00pm PT
Hahaha.. what LEB said.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 17, 2010 - 11:25pm PT
Seriously blurring, do some research into the Sufis... you know, the group building this CULTURAL CENTER.

Contrast their beliefs and practices with Al Qaeda... you know, the ones who attacked US.

And then, if you still have time, get yourself a fuking clue.

Did you see what I posted about the Imam's book, asshat? Imam Rauf?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 17, 2010 - 11:35pm PT
a call to prayer from the world trade rubble: islamic dawa from the heart of america, post 9/11.
Muslim version of the Imam's book.

What’s Right with Islam Is What’s Right with America
English version title

Why have such different titles?

Gene, I fear a certain brand of Islam that refers to Christians as infidels getting a foothold in this country. A brand of Islam that removes a woman's clitoris because they feel she should no feel sexual pleasure.

THAT is un-American. I don't refer to muslim friends as inferior or infidels. I have respect for them because they're quite decent people. But there is a nasty brand out there (usually funded by Saudis) that cannot be allowed here. We already have enough fundamentalism here already. The crazy Christians, the wahabbiests, etc..

EDIT: In the future, do your own work, Wes. This is the last time I do it for you. If you ask questions, be prepared to research THE F*#KING ANSWER!!! You should know this!!!!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 17, 2010 - 11:45pm PT
The Imam of this facility has given out mixed messages, would they be open to a multi-religious facility??

No! That would be tolerant of infidels,,,,
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Aug 17, 2010 - 11:48pm PT
Strange that the FBI, under Bush in 2003, asked that Imam to advise their
counter terrorism operation.

Who would have been giving mixed signals then, the Imam or Bush/Cheney?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 17, 2010 - 11:53pm PT
Strange that the FBI, under Bush in 2003, asked that Imam to advise their
counter terrorism operation.

Who would have been giving mixed signals then, the Imam or Bush/Cheney?

Are you stupid, or just disingenuous????

He knew the peeps to target.
Bertrand

climber
California
Aug 17, 2010 - 11:54pm PT
that sounds eerily like the weak and over-used argument that suggests somehow that if we were once friendly with someone, we can't complain when that "friend" goes bad...

e.g. U.S. support of the Taliban and Saddam Hussein in the 80's. Our past relationship doesn't change the nature of their actions today.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Aug 17, 2010 - 11:56pm PT
Blue, I don't have to ask you if you are stupid.

As usual, I am just stating the FACTS, whether you like it or not.


In March 2003, federal officials were being criticized for disrespecting the rights of Arab-Americans in their efforts to crack down on domestic security threats in the post-9/11 environment. Hoping to calm the growing tempers, FBI officials in New York hosted a forum on ways to deal with Muslim and Arab-Americans without exacerbating social tensions. The bureau wanted to provide agents with "a clear picture," said Kevin Donovan, director of the FBI's New York office.

Brought in to speak that morning -- at the office building located just blocks from Ground Zero -- was one of the city's most respected Muslim voices: Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf. The imam offered what was for him a familiar sermon to those in attendance. "Islamic extremism for the majority of Muslims is an oxymoron," he said. "It is a fundamental contradiction in terms."

It was, by contemporaneous news accounts, a successful lecture.

Flash forward six-and-a-half years, and Feisal Abdul Rauf occupies a far different place in the political consciousness. The imam behind a controversial proposal to build an Islamic cultural center near those same FBI offices has been called "a radical Muslim," a "militant Islamist" and, simply, the "enemy" by conservative critics. His Cordoba House project, meanwhile, has been framed as a conduit for Hamas to funnel money to domestic terrorist operations.

For those who actually know or have worked with the imam, the descriptions are frighteningly -- indeed, depressingly -- unhinged from reality. The Feisal Abdul Rauf they know, spent the past decade fighting against the very same cultural divisiveness and religious-based paranoia that currently surrounds him.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/17/ground-zero-imam-helped-f_n_685071.html
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Aug 17, 2010 - 11:59pm PT
"You people are way off topic here. It isn't Islam per se. It's a faction within them that feels putting mosques up is actually 'submitting' America to Islam. Most Muslims don't adhere to this crap."

The question is, Bluering, why YOU adhere to "this crap" (as you accurately put it).
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 18, 2010 - 12:13am PT
Most Muslims don't adhere to this crap."

The question is, Bluering, why YOU adhere to "this crap" (as you accurately put it).

Isn't that self-answering??? Should i take the side of moderates or radicals?
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Aug 18, 2010 - 12:15am PT
Interesting:

(CNN) – Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich's latest comments regarding the controversial Islamic center near the site of the 9/11 World Trade Center attack are being called "absurd" - from no less a conservative stalwart than Pat Buchanan.

Speaking on MSNBC on Tuesday, the former presidential candidate and conservative commentator said recent comments from Gingrich likening the proposed project to the hanging of a Nazi symbol outside the Holocaust Museum were merely part of the former Speaker's efforts to appear more controversial than Sarah Palin.

"Newt is a political opportunist," Buchanan said. "What Newt is doing is he's trying to get out and be more flamboyant and more charismatic, if you will, and more controversial than Sarah Palin, who is his primary challenger, if he gets into Iowa and New Hampshire. She will take all his oxygen and a lot of his support."
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 18, 2010 - 12:19am PT
What's your point, Crimpie????

Wes,

fatty, from the Cordoba House website,

So we should believe them with an Imam with books with different titles based on the sub-culture he addresses? Fo real?
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Aug 18, 2010 - 12:21am PT
My point is that is interesting, just as I stated.
corniss chopper

Mountain climber
san jose, ca
Aug 18, 2010 - 12:23am PT
Weschrist

That does sound very nice and sincere. Probably written by some expensive
NY Public relations firm hired by the Iman. Change a few nouns and
it could be applied to a whore house in the NV desert. Doesn't mean anything.

Its all about zoning and we need to know who is being paid off to let them build it there. The rake off is happening. Just want to know their names and see their faces on the front page of the NY papers.

Cc


Zoning is a device of land use planning used by local governments in
most developed countries . The word is derived from the practice
of designating permitted uses of land based on mapped zones which
separate one set of land uses from another. Zoning may be use-based
(regulating the uses to which land may be put), or it may regulate
building height, lot coverage, and similar characteristics, or some
combination of these. Similar urban planning methods have dictated the use
of various areas for particular purposes in many cities from ancient
times.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 18, 2010 - 12:24am PT
Crimps, I'm sure you'd agree everybody would win with a mosque move. No?

It would show respect and tolerance. That's me though...
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 18, 2010 - 12:26am PT
because the catholic church has hidden so many pedophiles within their robes i am hereby offended that any catholic church is within 50 miles of a school...

sound ridiculous? it ought to sound familiar.

i was under the mistaken impression that this was america and folks could practice whatever kind of religion they wanted...
Bertrand

climber
California
Aug 18, 2010 - 12:27am PT
That is stupid. Hawkeye, have you even been reading the intelligent remarks made on both sides of this great discussion?

[Edit] You would have realized within seconds that religious freedom is not at issue.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Aug 18, 2010 - 12:28am PT
No, I don't agree. It's not a win/lose thing to me. Like I stated above, I've no problem with the community center being built several blocks from ground zero.

I have every confidence that some people would still whine even if the community center was built three, ten or 15 blocks away from ground zero.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 18, 2010 - 12:33am PT
Really cool that so many wanna bring up Catholicism in this thread.

Whatever...

And callie, I love ya, and I know you have a notch of love for me, but, Madonna!!!!, you sound like a lawyer. (and you are kinda like a lawyer, so whatever).

Just sayin'. You seem unwilling to get into our death-matches. And maybe that's good, you have prolly studied legal crap for years.

But, for that reason, maybe you can chime in more. You are somewhat of an expert in a field. And that kicks asssssssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111!!!!
big man

Boulder climber
Novato, CA
Aug 18, 2010 - 12:43am PT
that is almost tantamount to resurrecting a large swastika at auschwitz.
corniss chopper

Mountain climber
san jose, ca
Aug 18, 2010 - 12:43am PT
Hei!
try Googling church denied zoning permit

There are tons of instances of this happening everywhere in America.
And for every reason you can imagine

!!!
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 18, 2010 - 12:45am PT
Really cool that so many wanna bring up Catholicism in this thread.


Even one of those daily show segments used the example

Peace

Karl
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 18, 2010 - 12:53am PT
What do Catholics have to do with with domineering the globe, Jackson?

What? Catholics stopped long ago. It's the Christians and Muslims ya gotta worry about....
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 18, 2010 - 01:00am PT

The Cordoba Initiative website - the Cordoba House project is part of it.
http://www.cordobainitiative.org/

Note: Not spelt "Cordova".
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 18, 2010 - 01:30am PT
Ron Says:

The radical factions of islamification see this as a VICTORY..They will generate continued interest in ther goals as well.

Interesting. Ron has now revealed himself as the spokesperson for radical Islam. I'm wondering how he knows so much about what these people think?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 18, 2010 - 01:44am PT
Cragman wrote:
This is like building a Nazi recruiting center next door to Arlington Cemetary.

It just doesn't make any sense.


To use your analogy, these are the people who are the ANTI-NAZI recruiting people! So, to fight their efforts, is to support Nazis!

This is what you want to do? Why do you hate jews?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 18, 2010 - 01:47am PT
Bluering says:
So we should believe them with an Imam with books with different titles based on the sub-culture he addresses? Fo real?

And here is yet another suspicious Imam like that:

http://www.wordproject.org/
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 18, 2010 - 01:52am PT
LEB wrote:
Even money, once the mosque is built, there will be some sort of tribute - either direct or veiled - to the "brave and devoted" men who gave up their lives (i.e. 9/11) serving Allah. The only is question in my mind is whether or not it will be veiled.

So you would be opposed to a tribute to the American Muslim FDNY and Police who lost their lives attempting to save lives? We just wash them off the books? Should we deport their families? Should we revolk their citizenship postumously? Maybe they were trying to keep people in the buildings until they collapsed?

Are you opposed to a tribute to the FDNY priest who was killed in the collapse, as he served God?

Any other heresy you care to preach?
Fig's Lady

Social climber
Bishop, CA
Aug 18, 2010 - 02:02am PT
It seems that there are too many tangents, in a socio-politco crisis. It is too early to build a mosque. I have nothing against the freedom of religion, but there is a time and a place for tolerance and GROUND ZERO is not it.

P.S. I am sure some Muslim folk died during the building collapses.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Aug 18, 2010 - 02:49am PT
Hey Blew, last time I checked Catholics are Christins too.
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Aug 18, 2010 - 04:38am PT
worst thread in memory-
the ugly, reactive, and unfortunately, the ignorant underbelly of america is laid bare.


wrap up in the colors of courage and bravery, only to be a bunch of bigots and pussies, only to disrespect the principles of the founding fathers of our country, and all to score some short term cred w/ the portion of the population that can be easily frightened and manipulated with their fear... what a joke.


nothing ever changes-
time for another hiatus from this place.
bon voyage...
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Aug 18, 2010 - 07:23am PT
On Sharia,
A quick search...

http://www.religioustolerance.org/islsharia.htm

http://www.ntpi.org/html/whyoppose.html

The list goes on...

Lots out there if you really care. Some good, some bunk (as usual).
An educated population is becoming rarer and rarer in our country.


That is a fundamental reason so many are afraid of the big bad wolf...


















































...he is actually a pussy.

Cheers,
DD
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Aug 18, 2010 - 07:49am PT
Nobody expects




the spanish inquisition...
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Aug 18, 2010 - 10:52am PT
Yes, many Muslims lost their lives as a result of the 9/11 attack.

From the intarweb:

Muslim Victims of September 11th Attack

Thousands of innocent lives were lost on September 11, 2001, and our hearts and prayers go out to their families and loved ones. For several hundred of the victims of 9/11, grief and sorrow has been compounded by constant suspicion, bias, hatred, and attacks on the faith they hold dear.

Imagine being the family of Salman Hamdani. The 23-year-old New York City police cadet was a part-time ambulance driver, incoming medical student, and devout Muslim. When he disappeared on September 11, law enforcement officials came to his family, seeking him for questioning in relation to the terrorist attacks. They allegedly believed he was somehow involved. His whereabouts were undetermined for over six months, until his remains were finally identified. He was found near the North Tower, with his EMT medical bag beside him, presumably doing everything he could to help those in need. His family could finally rest, knowing that he died the hero they always knew him to be.

Or imagine being Baraheen Ashrafi, nine months pregnant with her second child. Her husband, Mohammad Chowdhury, was a waiter at Windows of the World restaurant, on the top floors of Tower One. The morning of September 11, they prayed salaat-l-fajr (the pre-dawn prayer) together, and he went off to work. She never saw him again. Their son, Farqad, was born 48 hours after the attacks -- one of the first 9/11 orphans to be born. In an interview with CTV Canada, she relates that in the months to follow, she mourned for her husband and endured the hostility of some ignorant people around her. "When they saw me ... I'm wearing a scarf. There is a hate look."

Or consider Rahma Salie, a passenger on American Airlines #11 that crashed into the North Tower. Rahma, a Muslim of Sri Lankan origin, was traveling with her husband Michael (a convert to Islam) to attend a friend's wedding in California. Rahma was 7 months pregnant with their first child. According to the Independent UK (October 11, 2001), Rahma's name was initially put on an FBI watch list, because her "Muslim-sounding" name was on the passenger manifest, and her travel patterns were similar to those of the hijackers (she was a computer consultant living in Boston). Although her name was eventually removed from the list, several of her family members were barred from taking flights to her memorial service. Her mother, Haleema, said, "I would like everyone to know that she was a Muslim, she is a Muslim and we are victims too, of this tragic incident.”

Partial List of Muslim 9/11 Victims:

Note: This list is as yet incomplete and unconfirmed. It has been compiled from the Islamic Circle of North America, the Newsday victims database, and reports from other major news organizations. The victims' ages, employers, or other personal information is included when available, along with links to further information or photos.

Samad Afridi
Ashraf Ahmad
Shabbir Ahmad (45 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and 3 children)
Umar Ahmad
Azam Ahsan
Ahmed Ali
Tariq Amanullah (40 years old; Fiduciary Trust Co.; ICNA website team member; leaves wife and 2 children)
Touri Bolourchi (69 years old; United Airlines #175; a retired nurse from Tehran)
Salauddin Ahmad Chaudhury
Abdul K. Chowdhury (30 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Mohammad S. Chowdhury (39 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and child born 2 days after the attack)
Jamal Legesse Desantis
Ramzi Attallah Douani (35 years old; Marsh & McLennan)
SaleemUllah Farooqi
Syed Fatha (54 years old; Pitney Bowes)
Osman Gani
Mohammad Hamdani (50 years old)
Salman Hamdani (NYPD Cadet)
Aisha Harris (21 years old; General Telecom)
Shakila Hoque (Marsh & McLennan)
Nabid Hossain
Shahzad Hussain
Talat Hussain
Mohammad Shah Jahan (Marsh & McLennan)
Yasmeen Jamal
Mohammed Jawarta (MAS security)
Arslan Khan Khakwani
Asim Khan
Ataullah Khan
Ayub Khan
Qasim Ali Khan
Sarah Khan (32 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Taimour Khan (29 years old; Karr Futures)
Yasmeen Khan
Zahida Khan
Badruddin Lakhani
Omar Malick
Nurul Hoque Miah (36 years old)
Mubarak Mohammad (23 years old)
Boyie Mohammed (Carr Futures)
Raza Mujtaba
Omar Namoos
Mujeb Qazi
Tarranum Rahim
Ehtesham U. Raja (28 years old)
Ameenia Rasool (33 years old)
Naveed Rehman
Yusuf Saad
Rahma Salie & unborn child (28 years old; American Airlines #11; wife of Michael Theodoridis; 7 months pregnant)
Shoman Samad
Asad Samir
Khalid Shahid (25 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald; engaged to be married in November)
Mohammed Shajahan (44 years old; Marsh & McLennan)
Naseema Simjee (Franklin Resources Inc.'s Fiduciary Trust)
Jamil Swaati
Sanober Syed
Robert Elias Talhami (40 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Michael Theodoridis (32 years old; American Airlines #11; husband of Rahma Salie)
W. Wahid
paganmonkeyboy

climber
mars...it's near nevada...
Aug 18, 2010 - 10:58am PT
once again, i'm amazed at just how far a belief in imaginary friends has warped society on this planet...

such a shame. religion seems to keep us from becoming the gods/goddesses we are everywhere one looks...
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Aug 18, 2010 - 11:41am PT
Thanks Crimp.

Cheers,
DD
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Tahoe City/Talmont , CA
Aug 18, 2010 - 11:46am PT
Crimpergirl,

Thank you!
You rock :-)
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 18, 2010 - 12:06pm PT
Although her name was eventually removed from the list, several of her family members were barred from taking flights to her memorial service.

And yet the bin Laden family was free to fly out of the country...
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 18, 2010 - 12:08pm PT
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/alana-goodman/2010/08/17/arab-tv-director-ground-zero-mosque-would-be-monument-terrorists
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Tahoe City/Talmont , CA
Aug 18, 2010 - 12:13pm PT
Nice try Bluering.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_Research_Center
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 18, 2010 - 12:23pm PT
Doug, are you saying the news director never made those comments???
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Aug 18, 2010 - 12:40pm PT
The Mosque in New York City near Ground Zero is being put up by the very liberal and tolerant Sufi branch of Islam which has itself often been persecuted by stricter Muslims.

The New York Times has a good article about them titled "Muslims in the Middle".

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/17/opinion/17dalrymple.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=Sufi&st=cse


Also appropo is the fact that there is an interfaith chapel at the Pentagon only feet away from where people died in that 9/11 plane crash which holds regular Muslim services.

Its title:
"Mosque Controversy Skips Pentagon: Muslims Gather in Daily Prayer at 9/11 Crash Site".

100-Seat Chapel Schedules Services for Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, Episcopalian, Catholic and Protestant Employees

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/mosque-controversy-skips-pentagon-muslims-gather-911-crash/story?id=11417673&cid=yahoo_pitchlist
AKDOG

Mountain climber
Anchorage, AK
Aug 18, 2010 - 01:04pm PT
Yes, many Muslims lost their lives as a result of the 9/11 attack.

Here are more Muslims that lost their lives as a result of 9/11. Of course these guys wanted too.

AMERICAN AIRLINES #77
BOEING 757
1) Khalid Almihdhar
2) Majed Moqed
3) Nawaf Alhazmi
4) Salem Alhazmi
5) Hani Hanjour

AMERICAN AIRLINES #11
BOEING 767
1) Satam M.A. Al Suqami
2) Waleed M. Alshehri
3) Wail M. Alshehri
4) Mohamed Atta
5) Abdulaziz Alomari


UNITED AIRLINES #175
BOEING 767
1) Marwan Al-Shehhi
2) Fayez Rashid Ahmed Hassan Al Qadi Banihammad
3) Ahmed Alghamdi
4) Hamza Alghamdi
5) Mohand Alshehri

UNITED AIRLINES #93
BOEING 757
1) Saeed Alghamdi
2) Ahmed Ibrahim A. Al Haznawi
3) Ahmed Alnami
4) Ziad Samir Jarrah
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Aug 18, 2010 - 01:45pm PT
Actually, the captured hikers and their families maintain that they never
crossed over the Iranian border.

They say that they were "arrested" by the Iranians miles outside the border.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 18, 2010 - 02:46pm PT
That is stupid. Hawkeye, have you even been reading the intelligent remarks made on both sides of this great discussion?

[Edit] You would have realized within seconds that religious freedom is not at issue.

i get it bertrand...religious freedom is fine just not in our neighborhood...

tell me whats FREE about that?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Boulder, CO
Aug 18, 2010 - 03:53pm PT
Sacred ground...right. This is what the area looks like close yo the same distance from "Ground Zero" and the new community center.

http://daryllang.com/blog/4421
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Aug 18, 2010 - 04:02pm PT
as much as I am in favor of freedom of worship (or in my case non-worship)...

I have to say... wrong place, wrong time.

Maybe if the people of NY were to have a vote..

if they chose to do so.. I'd have no problem..



I udnerstand that the Islamic religion did not the tragedy of 09/11... It was carried out by a few fundamentalists... of that religion....

again, wrong place, wrong time..


I liken it to US wanting to erect a christian church on the ground of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bomb locations right after blowing them to pulp(not that anyone would have had a problem with that with it being all erradiated and all)...

but in the same vane....

Maysho

climber
Soda Springs, CA
Aug 18, 2010 - 04:08pm PT
Wrong place wrong time?

Consider the actual place...

From what I read this community center is proposed for TWO BLOCKS NORTH. Have any of you visited this area? Once you leave the actual World Trade Center site there are hundreds of all sorts of businesses, from porn shops to banks to churches etc. the whole amazing jumble of Manhattan. This is not placing a mosque on "hallowed ground" at all. Two blocks in Manhattan can be worlds apart. Let go of this latest right wing talk show talking point and get real.

Peter
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 18, 2010 - 04:20pm PT
Looks like they cannot rebuild a Greek Orthodox Church that was destroyed on 9/11.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/08/18/leaders-disappointed-government-declares-deal-rebuild-ground-zero-church-dead/

And take those crosses down!!!
http://www.abc4.com/news/local/story/Court-overturns-UHP-cross-decision/xeJuHOwZjE-WxgyM4G7-jg.cspx
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 18, 2010 - 05:04pm PT
Read it again, Riley. All the way to the end....
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Aug 18, 2010 - 05:08pm PT
Maybe if the people of NY were to have a vote.

So if everyone votes to keep black people off the bus, it would be ok?

Why the hell is voting considered a good way to decide things? Freedom should never be something that can be voted away from some other group or there would be no Bill of Rights anymore.

Let everyone build fast food chains, strip joints, and community centers wherever it has been zoned for that type of building. If it should not be built then zone the area so that no on, regardless of religion, can build anything there.

Dave
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 18, 2010 - 05:33pm PT
Riley...

Though talks between the church and the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey stalled last year, church leaders say they've been trying to kick-start discussions ever since. But amid debate over whether a proposed Islamic community center should go forward near Ground Zero, government officials threw cold water on the prospect of any deal with the church -- telling Fox News the deal is off the table.

Confronted with the Port Authority's verdict, Father Mark Arey, of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, said it's the first he's heard that.

and

Sigmund said the "final offer" was made last year, which again included $60 million.

"They rejected that offer," he said.

But Arey said the original site is no good. And archdiocese officials disputed the Port Authority's claims, saying the church has complied with all conditions.

"It's not about money," Arey said. He expressed hope that the project can still be salvaged.

"This little church deserves to be rebuilt. It's symbolic, not just for Orthodox Christians, not just for Christians, but for all Americans," Arey said, calling the mosque debate "helpful" to the church's cause. "I believe that people around the country are asking themselves the question -- why all this talk about a mosque being built near Ground Zero? What about a little church that was destroyed on 9/11? ... This is basically a bureaucratic impasse. This will dissolve in the face of the American public consciousness."

Former New York Gov. George Pataki, who worked with the church as governor, told Fox News on Tuesday that the church should be rebuilt.

George Demos, a Republican candidate for New York's 1st Congressional District, also has drawn attention to the negotiations. He released an open letter to President Obama Tuesday urging him to, as he did with the mosque debate, weigh in on the church discussions.



Then Riley says;
Yo waste my time blue - nothing there but a few more fox news sound bites - bullsh#t..
Pretty funny the hypocrisy though - f*#k, Fox is such a cancer.

Is it true if CNN covers it? How about NBC?
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 18, 2010 - 05:40pm PT
Looks like they cannot rebuild a Greek Orthodox Church that was destroyed on 9/11.

And for good reason. George Habash, founder of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and leading proponent of the use of terror in Palestine and Israel, including the hijacking of planes, was a Greek Orthodox Christian.

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

Bertrand

climber
California
Aug 18, 2010 - 05:48pm PT
Looks like this entire debacle is mostly an invention of Fox News.

Radical, instead of questioning the story's veracity b/c it is brought to you by a network that exposes events you don't like to see in focus, maybe you should be wondering why the other networkd FAILED to bring it to your attention. A Mosque at Ground Zero IS a big deal, and I am glad I know about it. Especially newsworthy is that the President did not even have the constitution to speak out against it..that's also a big deal.

By the way, thanks for the map..I forgot who posted it. I spent a lot of time in that area when I recently lived in Manhattan.. Those blocks are VERY small. It is fair to say the proposed site is AT Ground Zero.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 18, 2010 - 06:03pm PT
My guess, Ken, is that any tribute - direct or veiled - might just be far more encompassing than the particular Muslims which you happen to mention.

You guessed it. I am not a very big fan of the religion of Islam or Sharia law. This happened a few days ago.


Just when you thought that absurd, monstrous Biblical punishments had been consigned to the dustbin of history, the Taliban is bringing back stoning. Way to be awful monsters, guys. What crime merited this horrific execution method?

Elopement. A couple eloped, because their families didn't think they should be married. Then they were lured back to the village with promises of forgiveness. Then they were seized and sentenced to death.

After the Taliban proclaimed the sentence, Siddiqa, dressed in the head-to-toe Afghan burqa, and Khayyam, who had a wife and two young children, were encircled by the male-only crowd in the bazaar. Taliban activists began stoning them first, then villagers joined in until they killed first Siddiqa and then Khayyam, Mr. Khan said. No women were allowed to attend, he said.

Mr. Khan estimated that about 200 villagers participated in the executions, including Khayyam's father and brother, and Siddiqa's brother, as well as other relatives, with a larger crowd of onlookers who did not take part.

[NYT. Pic via]

Yes, Ken, I DO also know about the atrocities of Christianity esp in the middle ages but this is 2010 and the above incident just happened a few days ago. For the record, Ken, I am not in support of witch hunting any Muslims in the US. I could, however, very much do without their religion. I would just as soon not have to be reminded of it anywhere near ground zero.

So, I would think that you would want to undermine the purpetrators of the above, not support them. I would think that you would want to help their opponents fight indoctrination to this practice, not support those that do these things.

But you don't. You want to give aid and comfort to those who are mortal enemies of the US, and you want to subvert those who have devoted themselves to supporting the US. What is the term I'm looking for.......?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 18, 2010 - 06:13pm PT
LEB wrote:
Even money, once the mosque is built, there will be some sort of tribute - either direct or veiled - to the "brave and devoted" men who gave up their lives (i.e. 9/11) serving Allah. The only is question in my mind is whether or not it will be veiled.

So, you must REALLY be incensed by these things that have ACTUALLY HAPPENED, regarding the FDNY Catholic priest:

Judge's helmet was presented to Pope John Paul II. France awarded him the Légion d'honneur. The U.S. Congress nominated him for a Presidential Medal of Freedom. In 2002, the City of New York renamed a portion of West 31st Street "Father Mychal F. Judge Street" [23], and christened a commuter boat "The Father Mychal Judge Ferry".[24]

A campaign has been started in Carlstadt, New Jersey to have a statue of Judge erected in its Memorial Park.[25] Alvernia University, a private independent college in the Franciscan tradition in Reading, Pennsylvania, named a new residence hall in honor of Judge.[26]

In 2002, the U.S. Congress passed The Father Mychal Judge Police and Fire Chaplains Public Safety Officers Benefit Act into law.[27] This was the first time the federal government ever extended equal benefits for same-sex couples, allowing the domestic partners of public safety officers killed in the line of duty to collect their federal death benefit.

In 2006 a film, The Saint of 9/11, directed by Glenn Holsten and narrated by Sir Ian McKellen, was released, celebrating Father Judge's life. The film includes testimonies of work colleagues and people who met him at different stages of his life.[28]

The Father Mychal Judge Walk of Remembrance takes place every year in New York around the 9/11 anniversary. It begins with a Mass at St. Francis Church on West 31st Street, then proceeds to the site of Ground Zero, retracing Judge's final journey and praying along the way.[29] Every September 11, there is also a Mass in memory of Mychal Judge in Boston, attended by many who lost family members on 9/11.[30]


The thread here is that there is great healing that is occuring, by having identified and honored this priest. It sounds awfully that you would deny such, to an equivalent moslem.

You think it is fine for the PD to have a wall with their lost.
You think it is fine for the FDNY to have such a wall.
You probably think it would be fine for a bar to have a wall with patrons lost.

But not muslims.

Because they are all the same. All terrorists. All enemies. All non-humans.

That's just really sad that you think that way.
Greg Barnes

climber
Aug 18, 2010 - 06:24pm PT
This thread is STILL going on?

Do you anti-mosque people realize that if the right-wing talk shows started saying so, you would soon all be on here spouting about how the US Constitution is a socialist conspiracy?

You are just so DUMB.
Mason

Trad climber
Yay Area
Aug 18, 2010 - 06:27pm PT
Just wanted to post these from that Daryl Lang blog page. I do remember this hallowed ground last time I visited NYC.

Should a place of religious study be so close to a place like this?





Come to think of it, maybe having a "Mosque" or other religious building next to a strip joint, bar and bookie isn't such a good idea?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 18, 2010 - 06:30pm PT

Do you anti-mosque people realize that if the right-wing talk shows started saying so, you would soon all be on here spouting about how the US Constitution is a socialist conspiracy?

You are just so DUMB.

Is Obama dumb too? He took the same stance as most of us.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Aug 18, 2010 - 06:59pm PT
In what ways do you agree with Obama's position on the mosque Bluering? Really curious because I missed where you two agree. Thanks in advance.

Also, (and not directed to you Bluey - just talking out loud) given there is a mosque four blocks from ground zero, at least I know understand where some folks draw the line: two blocks is too close; four blocks is okay.
PAUL SOUZA

Trad climber
Clovis, CA
Aug 18, 2010 - 07:01pm PT
It's really mind blowing how much influence the media has over society when something, such as a Muslim Cultural Center, not a mosque, is to be built blocks away from Ground Zero, can rile everyone up against each other.

I will not be surprised if this becomes one of the central issues or smear issues in the next elections.
Bertrand

climber
California
Aug 18, 2010 - 07:03pm PT
Hawkeye, the reason I think your post is stupid is that nobody is threatening the existing (and great) religious freedoms we have in this country. What you may be missing is that every right we have is constrained to the point that we're not infringing on OTHER'S rights.

You, for instance, have a right to free speach, but you cannot yell "fire" in a crowded theater, unless of course, there is a fire. I think you have the right to spit on the ground in this country, but not if it hits someone in the face along the way. This a-hole Imam has the right to build his mosque/cultural center, but not in a way that violates city approval practices...which ALSO have the right to review building proposals for their appropriateness and decency.

You would have a hard time arguing the case that Muslims' freedom to worship could not adequately be maintained if the mosque site were SEVERAL blocks away instead of two short blocks from Ground Zero.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
Aug 18, 2010 - 07:05pm PT
Some blocks in lower manhattan are short, and others quite long. Are we talking short blocks or long blocks?
Bertrand

climber
California
Aug 18, 2010 - 07:06pm PT
given there is a mosque four blocks from ground zero, at least I know understand where some folks draw the line: two blocks is too close; four blocks is okay.

Hi Crimpergirl, that is interesting. Was the 4-block-away Mosque built after 9/11/01? I think that is the issue.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Aug 18, 2010 - 07:07pm PT
It is my understanding the four-block-away-Mosque has been there since 1970.

But I could be mistaken - I'll see if I can verify.

edit:

Still hunting for an interesting source I saw earlier about the Mosque that is near. Until I find it, in response to another question:

At least according to one source the proposed center is just over two blocks from the northern edge of the sprawling, 16-acre World Trade Center site. Its location is roughly half a dozen normal Lower Manhattan blocks from the site of the North Tower, the nearest of the two destroyed in the attacks.

And, the proposed center's location is already used by the cleric for worship, drawing a spillover from the imam's former main place for prayers, the al-Farah mosque. That mosque, at 245 West Broadway, is about a dozen blocks north of the World Trade Center grounds.

Still hunting (and working).
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 18, 2010 - 07:14pm PT
Crimpie, I agree with their right to build the mosque, just not the choice of locations.


“Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as everyone else in this country,” Obama said at the dinner. “That includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in lower Manhattan in accordance with local laws and ordinances.”

The next day he said he didn't necessarily endorse the project.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Aug 18, 2010 - 07:20pm PT
Thanks Blue.


Here is the text I saw earlier. It is from the WaPo. The links didn't copy over. The original article can be found herehttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/18/AR2010081804759.html?sid=ST2010081805099:

1. Where is it?

The project is slated for two adjacent buildings at 45-51 Park Place, between West Broadway and Church Street, two blocks north of Ground Zero in Lower Manhattan. Find a map of the location here.

2. What was previously in the buildings?

One of the buildings, at 45-47 Park Place, used to house a Burlington Coat Factory, which closed after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. (The top of the building was damaged by the landing gear from one of the planes used in the attacks.) The building is five stories tall and was built in 1857-58 in the Italian Renaissance palazzo style, according to the New York City Landmarks Preservation Commission.

The other building, 49-51 Park Place, is a former substation owned by Con Edison. The building is in the process of being sold to the project's developer, Sharif el-Gamal, who now rents it on a long-term lease. The sale may have to be approved by the state Public Service Commission. Both Con Edison and the Public Service Commission are reviewing their records on the matter, and no timeline is set. Read more about the ownership issue here.

Although both buildings are mostly vacant, Muslim prayer services have been taking place in the 49-51 Park Place building since Gamal began leasing the property in 2009.

3. Is it actually a mosque, or is it a cultural center?

The plan is for a cultural center that would contain a mosque.

The project's organizers have said that the center would be modeled on Manhattan's 92nd Street Y, a community center open to all New Yorkers. The center would house meeting rooms, a fitness center, a swimming pool, a basketball court, a restaurant and culinary school, a library, a 500-seat auditorium, a mosque and a Sept. 11 memorial and reflection space. The organizers have estimated that the mosque could attract as many as 2,000 worshipers on Fridays. More on what would be in the complex here.

4. What would the center be called?

The founders originally decided to name the project Cordoba House, after the medieval Spanish town where Muslims, Jews and Christians joined together in a lively interfaith community. In response to criticism that the name instead recalled an era of Islamic hegemony, the planners changed the name to "Park51," after the address of one of the buildings.

5. What would the construction cost? How many jobs would the center create?

The cost is estimated at $100 million. By some estimates, the center would create as many as 150 full-time and 500 part-time jobs.

6. Who is behind the project?

Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf is behind project. According to his official bio, Rauf was born in Kuwait and educated in England, Egypt and Malaysia. As a teenager, he immigrated to the United States from Egypt with his father, an Egyptian imam.

Rauf received his bachelor's degree in physics from Columbia University and has a master's degree in plasma physics from Stevens Institute of Technology in New Jersey.

From 1983 until 2009, Rauf was the Friday prayer leader at Masjid al Farah, a Sufi mosque 12 blocks from Ground Zero and 10 blocks from the proposed center's site. The mosque, which moved to West Broadway in 1985 and still holds services, is in a small two-story building between two bars. Since 2009, Rauf has been leading prayer services at the vacant Burlington Coat Factory on Park Place.

Rauf has written several books, including "Islam: A Search for Meaning" and "What's Right With Islam: A New Vision for Muslims and the West." In 1997, he and his wife founded the American Society for Muslim Advancement, which is billed in Rauf's bio as "the first Muslim organization committed to bringing American Muslims and non-Muslims together through programs in academia, policy, current affairs, and culture."

Rauf has been subject to criticism for statements he made in a "60 Minutes" interview after the Sept. 11 attacks. "United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened," he said, according to the Boston Globe. In a recent radio interview, he also declined to say whether he believed Hamas was a terrorist group.

Daisy Khan: Rauf's wife. As a teenager, she immigrated to Long Island from Kashmir, India. She married Faisal in 1997. She worked for 25 years as an interior architect, according to her official bio.

In addition to serving as executive director of the American Society for Muslim Advancement, Khan also sits on the advisory panel of the 9/11 memorial and museum, according to a report in the New York Times.

Sharif el-Gamal: The chairman and CEO of SoHo Properties and the main real estate developer behind the project. He was born in New York to a Polish mother and Egyptian father, according to a report in Newsweek. Gamal is a member of Rauf's Manhattan congregation and was also married by Rauf.

Gamal agreed to join the project in 2006, and in 2009, he bought the Park Place property; shortly thereafter, Rauf began holding services there.

Cordoba Initiative: A nonprofit organization founded by Rauf in 2004 to "cultivate multi-cultural and multi-faith understanding across minds and borders." Find the group's Web site here.

7. Why did they decide to build the complex there?

In an interview with Newsweek, Khan said that she, Rauf and Gamal settled on the site because it was large, had the right zoning and also due to its symbolism. "We want to provide a counter momentum against extremism," she said. "We want peace, and we want it where it matters most. This is where it matters most."

8. How big would the complex be?

The developer was not available for an interview. But according to published reports, the project would be 13 to 15 stories high; no architect has been selected -- the planners instead intend to hold a "world-class design competition."

9. Are there any mosques already near Ground Zero (and, if so, how near)?

There are at least two other mosques in the neighborhood. The Masjid al Farah, where Rauf served as prayer leader until 2009, sits 12 blocks from Ground Zero. The Masjid Manhattan, which was founded in 1970, is four blocks from Ground Zero, on Warren Street.

10. What is the history of the project?

The following timeline was compiled from news reports in the New York Times, New York Post, New York Daily News, Newsweek and other outlets.

    1983: Feisal begins leading services at the Masjid al Farah in TriBeCa.

    1999: Feisal tries to purchase a former YMCA on 23rd Street with the purpose of creating a "Muslim Y." The project fails because of financing problems.

    2005: Daisy Khan meets with Joy Levitt, executive director of the Jewish Community Center on Manhattan's Upper West Side, for advice on how to build a Muslim community center in Lower Manhattan.

    Around 2006: Gamal, the developer, agrees to join the effort.

    July 2009: For $4.85 million, a group of companies owned by Gamal buys the Park Place property, where Feisal began to hold services.

    September 2009: At a Ramadan fast-breaking at Gracie Mansion, organizers talk with New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg (I) about the project.

    February 2010: Manhattan Borough President Scott Stringer's staff suggests that the organizers voluntarily present their idea to Community Board 1, an advisory body that represents the neighborhood including Ground Zero.

    May 5: Community Board 1 holds a meeting; it's the first public presentation of the project. The board's 12-member financial district committee unanimously endorses the project at the meeting.

    May 6: Public outcry over the project begins.

    May 18: Organizers of the project talk with supporters on a conference call and hire a crisis public relations firm.

    May 25: Community Board 1 meets again. After a heated four hours of discussion, the board gives its approval to the project in a 29 to 1 vote, with 10 abstentions. The vote is an advisory one, however, with no power to affect the project's development.

    Aug. 3: The New York City Landmarks Preservation Commission decides that one of the buildings on Park Place does not merit preservation, clearing the way for the organizers to apply for building permits. That same day, Bloomberg gives an impassioned speech on the project's construction.

    Aug. 5: The American Center for Law and Justice, a conservative organization founded by Pat Robertson, announces that it is suing the Landmarks Preservation Commission, arguing that the building merits protection as a historic landmark.

    Aug. 13-14: President Obama makes remarks on the project.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 18, 2010 - 07:28pm PT
Bluering, what about the Greek Orthodox Church? Should it be rebuilt? After all, that church harbors terrorists, too.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 18, 2010 - 07:31pm PT
Crimpie, I'm curious how you'd interpret the story about the Greek Orthodox Church at the link I previous page.

It basically comes down to, who do you trust more? A priest and former mayor, or an exec from the Port Authority (prolly acting on Bloomberg's direction).

After reading the story, I tend to believe the priests, the mayor and the Congressman writing the letter to Obama.


Gary, it should be rebuilt. Your arguement is ridiculous BTW. Think about it.
corniss chopper

Mountain climber
san jose, ca
Aug 18, 2010 - 07:36pm PT
An opinion on why liberals support the mosque and side with terrorists.

http://boards.ign.com/teh_vestibule/b5296/194978333/p1/?31


btw
The Greek Orthodox church, that was destroyed in the 9-11 attacks at ground zero, has been denied a permit to be rebuilt.

http://community.comcast.net/t5/In-The-News/NYC-Greek-Orthodox-Church-denied-permit-to-rebuild-church/m-p/5913190

Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 18, 2010 - 07:39pm PT
Gary, it should be rebuilt. Your arguement is ridiculous BTW. Think about it.

bluering, please explain to me how it is more ridiculous than your argument? Ater all, many Americans have been killed by Greek Orthodox terrorists.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Aug 18, 2010 - 07:46pm PT
Regarding the church... there isn't a lot of information out there about this topic which is too bad. It does look like the church is trying to capitalize on the Mosque media to get its story out there so perhaps we'll hear more about it soon.

From the article you presented Mr. Blue, it seems clear that the church is welcome to rebuild on their own. This does not appear to be in dispute in your link. What is in dispute on that link is the status of the deal to use public money to do it. One side says the deal is now off the table because the church wanted 20 mill more. Another side says they are still waiting (a year?) for the attorneys to call and didn't know the deal was off the table.

Given that these negotiations involve humans, I can't pick which side I believe more. Priests can and have lied. Bureaucrats can and have lied. I think I lean toward option three: they are all being honest and there was some communication breakdown. Or they are all fudging the truth a little to look like good guys. Humans will do that sort of thing.

As to why the permits were denied - more information is needed. Building permits are denied every single day in every city for a variety of reasons. I find it surprising that the church would have *no* idea why the permit was denied. At least when I used to go and pull building permits, it was very clear why one was being denied. (That however is the experience of one person in one city at one time and doesn't represent the universe of permit pulling). It's hard to say without additional information - hopefully someone will publish it.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 18, 2010 - 07:48pm PT
bluering, please explain to me how it is more ridiculous than your argument? Ater all, many Americans have been killed by Greek Orthodox terrorists?

Did they build Greek Orthodox Churches on those locations?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 18, 2010 - 07:57pm PT
Thanks for weighing in, Crimpie, but the problem I have is that there was a Church there before and it should be replaced. I think that's the priest's point also.

But there needs to be more info on who's to blame for this. I agree.

This is why Fox News should be commended for bringing this story to light (contrary to Riley's disdain for FN). Nobody would have known this was going on for 8 years without this story!!!!!!!

It's not the messanger...it's the message. Rock on Crimpie!
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Aug 18, 2010 - 07:59pm PT
Some info about the church:

Here is the church's website: http://www.stnicholasnyc.com/. They've linked some articles written about them here. Unfortunately though, there isn't a lot of new information on their website (unless I'm just missing it). Thought you guys might be interested.

For example:

From 2008 an interesting read about coordination nightmare of rebuilding (and actually moving) the location of the church:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/03/nyregion/03trade.html?pagewanted=1&n=Top/Reference/Times%20Topics/People/B/Bagli,%20Charles%20V&_r=1
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 18, 2010 - 08:14pm PT
God help us!!! I finally agree with Miss t*r.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 18, 2010 - 08:26pm PT
No, a Burlington Coat Factory was there before... dipsh#t.



I would bend toward acknowledging Faux's coverage of the story as slightly credible, if they hadn't call the cultural center 4 blocks away "The Mosque AT Ground Zero."

You're a little quick at the trigger, like Riley.

I was referring (re-read the posts) to the Greek Church, dipsh#t, not the mosque.

What's amazing is you f*#king people try to come off as intellectuals, yet make asses out of yourselves.

But you get a pass on this site because you're liberal as most here are. Who's disingenuous???? I wonder how many libs here will condemn your idiotic remarks????
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 18, 2010 - 08:39pm PT
Am I wrong, Wes? Did you misinterpret my comments?

No dipsh#t, I'm sick of going on your twisted tangents that have nothing to do with the topic. You lose more than Jenny Craig. Every time you get backed into a corner, you grab some unrelated bullshit tangent and expect people to give a sh#t about your delusional world of fear.

Isn't that what you just did??? Change the argument after being proven wrong?

I don't expect you to admit it. This is typical. You have no pride.

Also, when did I change topics in a disagreement?

The more you spew, the more you prove my point.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 18, 2010 - 08:51pm PT
This a-hole Imam has the right to build his mosque/cultural center, but not in a way that violates city approval practices...which ALSO have the right to review building proposals for their appropriateness and decency.

bertrand, why is the imam an ahole? seriously?

i happen to think that the pope is pretty worthless but i don't think he is an ahole. sheilding priests from sex abuse charges? pretty bad in my book...
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 18, 2010 - 08:57pm PT
What if a few years after the end of WWII a Shinto shrine was proposed at Pearl Harbor?













Notice not a Buddhist temple,a Shinto shrine.
moacman

Trad climber
Montana
Aug 18, 2010 - 09:00pm PT
Just build it anywhere but anywhere near there. NY'S a big state...End of story...

Stevo
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Aug 18, 2010 - 09:00pm PT
The "a-hole" Imam being referred to was asked in 2003 by the Bush/Cheney
administration to help advise them on counter terrorism.

So, why exactly is he an A hole?


But then, Bush was quite friendly with Muslims.

It was a long courtship, started innocently enough:


But then things quickly got more serious:
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 18, 2010 - 09:01pm PT
Did they build Greek Orthodox Churches on those locations?

Bluering, is Al Qaeda building a mosque at Ground Zero?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Boulder, CO
Aug 18, 2010 - 09:55pm PT
TGT wrote: What if a few years after the end of WWII a Shinto shrine was proposed at Pearl Harbor?


So what is your point??
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 18, 2010 - 10:01pm PT
A FUKING CULTURAL CENTER BLOCKS AWAY FROM WHERE THE WTC ONCE STOOD

I didn't realize the Cordoba House and the greek church were so intertwined.

You're such a dick when you get caught....you try to play it off as my misinterpretation, or 'Faux News' crap. I've lost a lot of respect for you. How weak!

You define disingenuous sometimes. Especially whilst sitting in a corner criticizing Christians. Your failure to admit your lies makes you a snake!

Good luck living with yourself. You are weak and half of a true man.



The vulagarities thrown around on this web site prove that many climbers are some of the most immature people walking the planet.

Grow up.


I am vulgar, my man, but only when pushed. I type how I speak and it ain't pretty. I realize that.

But I am also a warrior of the faith. I fight the fight where other Christians get battered. I know that I am watched. But somebody needs to be the 'attack dog'. I have no problem with that role.

Peace doesn't necessarily beget peace. Sometimes you have to fight! And sometimes people need to be told to STFU!!!!

Rock on, Cragman. I like you....
edejom

Boulder climber
Butte, America
Aug 18, 2010 - 10:06pm PT
"Thanks for weighing in, Crimpie, but the problem I have is that there was a Church there before and it should be replaced."--Bluering



And WHY?


What if there was a crack house, or a Hooters, or a massage parlor there--should that be replaced as well?


Conservatism is best left in the past...










































...where it belongs
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 18, 2010 - 10:10pm PT
And WHY?


What if there was a crack house, or a Hooters, or a massage parlor there--should that be replaced as well?

Yeah. You got it!
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Boulder, CO
Aug 18, 2010 - 10:14pm PT
Blue wrote: But I am also a warrior of the faith. I fight the fight where other Christians get battered. I know that I am watched. But somebody needs to be the 'attack dog'. I have no problem with that role.


That is really funny.
throwpie

Trad climber
Berkeley
Aug 18, 2010 - 10:15pm PT
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Aug 18, 2010 - 10:17pm PT
Hahahahah! Good stuff Throwpie!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 18, 2010 - 10:25pm PT
I am here for your amusement, Bob.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 18, 2010 - 10:37pm PT
Anybody following this would see you as an idiot who was proven to be wrong. Yet you continue.

Gimme a sec and I'll explain to everybody how much of a dick you are. And a liar!

I gotta have a smoke and I'll re-edit the posts....hold on.
edejom

Boulder climber
Butte, America
Aug 18, 2010 - 10:54pm PT
Ooooh noooo--a religion is expressing its freedom!
































































Call the Constitution Police--a Bill of Right is being enacted...
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 18, 2010 - 11:29pm PT
A FUKING CULTURAL CENTER BLOCKS AWAY FROM WHERE THE WTC ONCE STOOD

I didn't realize the Cordoba House and the Greek church were so intertwined.

If you can't see how they're intertwined in this debate, you're either disingenuous or a schmuck. You're twisted or misinterpreting.

Oh no, it was absolutely my misinterpretation. I thought this thread was about



A FUKING CULTURAL CENTER BLOCKS AWAY FROM GROUND ZERO



I completely, beyond any shadow of a doubt, thought that's what we were discussing.

There's a mosque in the building guised as a cultural center.

I had absolutely no idea that a Greek Orthodox Crutch was involved in any way shape or form. Completely my misunderstanding.

I looked it up. Apparently a deal made with a Republican Governor back in 2004 fell through and public funds are no longer going to be used to build a particular Church.

Do I have that right?

Now...



WHAT THE FUK DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH A CULTURAL CENTER BLOCKS AWAY FROM THE WTC?

Are you really asking what the 2 have to do with one another? Are you that stupid?

Kinda telling how you cherry-pick quotes from the article too. And you say Fox News is biased? Most people would think that based on your quotes.

Here is the full story;

Looks like they cannot rebuild a Greek Orthodox Church that was destroyed on 9/11.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/08/18/leaders-disappointed-government-declares-deal-rebuild-ground-zero-church-dead/

And take those crosses down!!!
http://www.abc4.com/news/local/story/Court-overturns-UHP-cross-decision/xeJuHOwZjE-WxgyM4G7-jg.cspx
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 18, 2010 - 11:35pm PT
Hey it's all cool!

Imam Obamaramadan says there's noting wrong with the Hamosque.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Aug 18, 2010 - 11:35pm PT
It states clearly in that article that the church *can* rebuild the church:

"St. Nicholas Orthodox Church has always had and will continue to have the right to rebuild on its original location. The question was whether public money would be spent to build a much larger church at a separate location on the site and ensuring that construction wouldn't delay the World Trade Center further," spokesman Stephen Sigmund said in a written statement."

I don't see where you are getting that they cannot rebuild the church.
Chinchen

climber
Way out there....
Aug 18, 2010 - 11:38pm PT
You say you're a Christian, cause God made you,
You say you’re a Muslim ’cause God made you,
You say you’re a Hindu and the next man a Jew
And we all kill each other 'cause god told us to? NAW!

Hello, Hello. Bonjour,Bonjour!

Michael Franti

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlHzRir7K3g
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 18, 2010 - 11:43pm PT
It states clearly in that article that the church *can* rebuild the church:

"St. Nicholas Orthodox Church has always had and will continue to have the right to rebuild on its original location. The question was whether public money would be spent to build a much larger church at a separate location on the site and ensuring that construction wouldn't delay the World Trade Center further," spokesman Stephen Sigmund said in a written statement."

I don't see where you are getting that they cannot rebuild the church.

Crimpie, I think it has to do with the fact that it was destroyed by terrorists and the Fed offered help.

The story is twisted though...2 different stories....


EDIT:

Dipshit wrote:

And FYI, Faux News is THE ONLY "NEWS ORGANIZATION" willing to print that kind of bullsh#t. Every other article I can find cites Faux News as the source.

Wow, so FN has risen to AP and Reuters status????
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Arid-zona
Aug 18, 2010 - 11:46pm PT
This whole issue is an amazing litmus test of ignorance. I've been pretty amazed at who has come out against this thing. At the very least it's been helpful to get a glimpse at people's assumptions and attitudes that would lead them to oppose it being built.

Also, bravo Mayor Bloomberg. Talk about passing a test of leadership with flying colors. He officially has a bigger sack than Giulinani.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 19, 2010 - 12:03am PT
What if a few years after the end of WWII a Shinto shrine was proposed at Pearl Harbor?

Poll on the existence of Shinto Shrines near Pearl Harbor is:

•offensive 34 10% of all votes
•not offensive 294 90% of all votes
Total Votes: 328

Started: August 18, 2010
=

If they’d bothered to do some fact checking before opening their mouths, they’d probably know that there are already some Shinto Shrines in Hawaii, with a couple not far from Pearl Harbor. (There are also some Buddhist Temples in the area.


“Perhaps we should test the Japanese people’s resolve by attempting to build a big christian church at ground zero.”

The reader is unaware of the fact that Urakami Cathedral is one of the major landmarks associated with the Nagasaki bombing. There were also churches in Hiroshima in 1945, with at least one near ground zero. Of course, both cities have Christian churches today.

=

Right-wing radio host Rush Limbaugh asked listeners what they would think if a “Hindu Temple” was built at Pearl Harbor, apparently thinking that Japan was a Hindu nation.

http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201008160019



Of course, all these arguments are specious: Pearl Harbor was not attacked by Shinto, collectively (nor Hindu religion, either).

Hiroshima was not attacked by Christendom.

The US was not attacked by Islam.

But it is SO MUCH easier to point things that way, even if it is wrong.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 19, 2010 - 12:15am PT
Ya Crimps- but Blue ignores that...lol


riley

Ignores what, Riley?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Aug 19, 2010 - 12:44am PT
The facts Blew, just the facts.



Well said Ken M.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 19, 2010 - 01:00am PT
LEB said:
It is really very simple - sleep with dogs, wake up with fleas.

If you (not you, personally, Ken - just a figure of speech) or anyone else is going to affiliate with Islam and Sharia Law, in one form or another, don't be surprised if other persons treat you with scorn.

If given people take a very dim view of certain ethnic groups (and don't want to look at their mosques), it was not because these folks got their names pulled out of a hat. They had a role in creating the discord as well as the people's disdain.

So whoever it was (Blue?) who works with two muslims and climbs voluntarily with one, is to be treated with scorn?

If the Paramedic who brings me a patient is muslim, I should treat him with scorn? Is that how you advocate we treat muslim patients?

LEB, you are falling for the stereotyping process of the three "B"'s of muslims:

A report titled "100 Years of Anti-Arab and Anti-Muslim stereotyping" by Mazin B. Qumsiyeh, director of media relations for the American Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee, specifies what some in the Arab American community call "the three B syndrome": "Arabs in TV and movies are portrayed as either bombers, belly dancers, or billionaires" in reference to being portrayed as terrorists, women as sex objects, or as wealthy oilmen.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 19, 2010 - 01:31am PT
Did they build Greek Orthodox Churches on those locations?

Bluering, is Al Qaeda building a mosque at Ground Zero?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 19, 2010 - 01:39am PT
t*r raised the point that if 2,000 people go to the mosque on Friday, it could be a busy neighbourhood. Given that it is the heart of Manhattan, one of the densest built cities in the world, with probably a million or more people squeezed in on any given day, maybe not. 2,000 people more or less is background noise there.

Anyway, what about a petting zoo instead?
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 19, 2010 - 02:01am PT
What I can glean from this thread.

The mosque is being built right on ground zero, according to fox news. Whoops.. its not. Its two blocks away, which in New York is a fairly long ways.

The Greek church that was there and was destroyed is not being allowed to be rebuilt, according to fox news. Whoops, it is being allowed to be rebuilt, just not with government money.

The Imam who wants to build the mosque has links to terrorism and wants to destroy America, at least according to fox news.. whoops, he worked with George Bush senior in the middle east to end terrorism and help those in the middle east see that America allows religious freedom.

Well shucks.. Anyone see a link to all the controversy?


da dit da dit da dit. This just in. One in Five American believes Obama is a Muslim.. hahahaha. Man this world is a crazy place.

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 19, 2010 - 02:23am PT
t*r said

i think there should be a giant yoga playground where michael franti performs and does yoga with us all day long, every day.

Interesting assertion. You do realize that yoga refers to traditional physical and mental disciplines originating in India. The word is associated with meditative practices in Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism.

Within Hinduism, it also refers to one of the six orthodox schools of Hindu philosophy, and to the goal towards which that school directs its practices.

Perhaps that was the "connection" that Rush was talking about with Hindu practices!!!
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 19, 2010 - 02:33am PT
I knew it. Those Indians want to take over the country. But wait.. so do those Christians, "go forth and multiply and take dominion". Those sneaky Christian Indians.

And whats with that name? Indians??? Don't they know that the only real Indian comes from America? And we already whupped those rascals.
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Aug 19, 2010 - 03:42am PT
"you know who we should really run out of this country? those f*cking hipsters with their f*cking mustaches"

Oh great NOW were talking about Latinos...sheesh is no race/religion spared...
Oh wait, yes it's those White Anglo Dudes...and dudettes...or is it?
(that is a joke-for those unable to 'read between the lines' like my 5th graders can...

This thread is getting sillier and sillier...
Which might just be a good thing.

Carry on while I fight the battle against these darn Indians over here.
Yes, I AM ON THE FRONT LINE.
(I'll keep 'em from taking over t*r...)

Grin,
DD
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 19, 2010 - 04:22am PT

Karl ("there's a sucker born every minute") Rove is once again laughing his friggin' ass off. You can just feel the seething, pent-up tide of ignorance building like a wave every time someone says "mosque" or "illegal alien". But hey, the republicans have only gained power in recent decades by riding on waves of greed, ignorance, bigotry, and hate so I'm not the least bit surprised by this year's deafening drumbeat of relentless stupidity.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 19, 2010 - 07:02am PT
Good one Lois, Most people don't see anything positive because all they watch is faux news, Bill Oliely, and Rush Limbombastic.

I could say the same thing about Christianity.

Kids being beaten in front of church congregations. (remember that one?)
Preachers screwing whores, doing drugs, lying.. ect. And this a preacher a former president relied on. talk about the blind leading the blind. Yeesh.

Edit: according to Christianity.. you are going to hell. For eternity..Gotta love Christianality for that one.

Every religion has its hardcore radicals and easy to misinterpret and misunderstand beliefs. Too bad people can't seem to understand that.


healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 19, 2010 - 07:27am PT
John beat me to the punch...

It represents an offensive religion and a deranged value system

Good quote - that describes exactly how I feel about Christianity - in spades.
Roger Breedlove

climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
Aug 19, 2010 - 10:33am PT
The Alevi are a Muslim, ethnic and cultural community, primarily in Turkey, numbering in the tens of millions. Alevis are classified as a branch of Shi'a Islam by the people that want to assimilate them; however there are significant differences in Alevi beliefs, traditions and rituals when compared to other orthodox sects. Alevi worship takes place in assembly houses rather than mosques. The ceremony features music and dance where both women and men participate. Instead of Arabic, the respective native language predominates during rituals and praying.

Key Alevi characteristics include:

• Love and respect for all people (“The important thing is not religion, but being a human being”)
• Tolerance towards other religions and ethnic groups (“If you hurt another person, the ritual prayers you have done are counted as worthless”)
• Respect for working people ("The greatest act of worship is to work”)
• Equality of men and women, who pray side by side. Monogamy is practiced.

My favorite Muslim:


Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 19, 2010 - 10:51am PT
^ You can clearly see her eyes are plotting something...

like an assault on yon ice cream stand. (nice shot, Roger)
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Aug 19, 2010 - 10:57am PT
Cute little girl, and cute little Lorikeet!
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Aug 19, 2010 - 11:07am PT
Yargle bargle.
dirtbag

climber
Aug 19, 2010 - 11:29am PT
LOL.

Philo nails it.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Aug 19, 2010 - 11:37am PT
Ron, if that were an ex of yours, your should be in prison!
Roger Breedlove

climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
Aug 19, 2010 - 11:43am PT
We spent the day at the zoo where they have installed a collection of animated dinosaurs in natural habitats along a trail. My little friend was a bit nervous as we approached, seeing them moving and not behind bars. But she quickly realized that were not real and announced: “I am not afraid; they are not real,” repeated several times with heightened certainty.

As we arrived at the first grouping, I explained, as simply as I could, that dinosaurs were ancient creatures and were extinct. She was listening closely.

“They no longer exist,” I exclaimed.

She shot me a stern look and told me in no uncertain terms: “Well not here, they don’t.”
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Aug 19, 2010 - 11:46am PT
Roger that story just made my day.
Roger Breedlove

climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
Aug 19, 2010 - 12:10pm PT
Something to keep in mind when discussing Sharia laws.

Like towns everywhere, our traffic lights on the main, mixed commercial and residential streets have buttons for pedestrians so they can cross safely. We have a large and diverse Jewish community and many observe the Shabbat (Sabbath) by refraining from turning electricity on or off during Shabbat.

Rather than break their religious laws, some would time their crossing against traffic on busy streets. The city converted those lights near synagogues to operate automatically, to reduce needless risk.

I think the rule should be that Sharia law cannot break US law. There is still lots of room for people to practice their faith.

Now if we could stone stupid politicians, I might change my mind.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Aug 19, 2010 - 12:26pm PT
We're laughing Skipty but not at Wes.
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Aug 19, 2010 - 12:38pm PT
Not sure how two quotes from this guy constitute a mixed message. He was asked by Bush to represent the US to moderate Islam. The FBI asked him for help after 9/11.
As for how Al Qaeda and Wahabis view him, he is a Sufi. That's not a real popular branch of Islam with the radicals.
And I'm not sure where this Sharia law business is coming from. A tiny % of the US population is Muslim. There's no way Sharia is coming anywhere near being actual law. But if Mulsim women wish to wear headscarves, that's fine with me. I don't go around demanding Orthodox Jews remove their yamulkes.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 19, 2010 - 01:03pm PT
LEB says:
I personally hold the religion of Islam and Sharia law in a relatively negative light. It's tenants - or at least some of them - conflict with my own value system. I do not hold all peoples of middle eastern ethnicity in contempt. My feelings apply only to those who affiliate with this particular ideology and value system (e.g. the cabdriver mentioned above, as but an example). To me (and others) a mosque is a symbol of that particular ideology (Islam). If represents an offensive religion and a deranged value system.

Liar, liar, pants on fire. You are expressing your feelings against those that DO NOT affiliate with "this particular ideology"!!

All the negative stuff that you don't like, is rejected and fought against by the fellow in question that you are opposed to!

You are fighting the forces that are actually, on a day to day basis, actually trying to change the things to which you object!

Once again, you are lumping every peron in Islam into the same basket. It is not so. Educate yourself! Don't be ignorant of truth!
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Aug 19, 2010 - 01:47pm PT
Tell us what you really think DrF.
Mason

Trad climber
Yay Area
Aug 19, 2010 - 02:08pm PT
I haven't been able to keep up with this thread as it's exploding with posts. But from what I've read, I can honestly say that I'm very happy to be a part of this online community.



corniss chopper

Mountain climber
san jose, ca
Aug 19, 2010 - 02:21pm PT
"No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."

-Article VI, Section 3, United States Constitution

Mr. Obama recalled the opening lines of the Arabic call to prayer, reciting them with a first-rate accent. In a remark that seemed delightfully uncalculated (it'll give Alabama voters heart attacks), Mr. Obama described the call to prayer as ''one of the prettiest sounds on Earth at sunset.''
from a 2007 interview.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CEED81431F935A35750C0A9619C8B63



hear the call:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwX0T129sGM

John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 19, 2010 - 02:21pm PT
.It would seem islam is the only "allowable" these days...

The property where the mosque would be built is private property. The crosses were erected on government property. Not that I agree that the crosses should come down. I think they should stay. People don't have to be an ass about everything, unless of course you are faux news and you make things up. Oh my.. there is a mosque being built at ground zero by an American hating Imam while the Greeks aren't allowed to rebuild their church. Total hogwash. Carry on hogwash lovers.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Aug 19, 2010 - 02:35pm PT
Ron, the group *did* sue (an atheist group out of TX). The district appeals court in Denver decidED yesterday about it. Currently the crosses are allowed to stay. The crosses are on state property. That is the crux of the issue according to those bringing the lawsuit.

edit: here is one article about it: http://webcenters.netscape.compuserve.com/news/story.jsp?floc=DC-headline&sc=1110&idq=/ff/story/0001/20100818/4444.htm
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 19, 2010 - 03:15pm PT
commonalities throughout this thread for some posters (e.g. message from wes)...

it is your right to be an ignorant piece of sh#t.

...you are a fuking idiot.

...you are an ignorant piece of sh#t.

...you are an ignorant piece of sh#t.

in case leb and bluey didnt get it the first time....
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Aug 19, 2010 - 03:16pm PT
"Now whos luaghuing!:-0"

I don't know Ron who is?
And what is luaghuing anyway?
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Aug 19, 2010 - 03:19pm PT
Bluering wrote: "You people make me sick and I am ashamed that you are allowed to call yourselves Americans.

So you disagree with this building in this location. Fine, it is your right to be an ignorant piece of sh#t."

Does anyone else see the irony of those two sentences following one another?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 19, 2010 - 03:20pm PT
Bluering wrote: "You people make me sick and I am ashamed that you are allowed to call yourselves Americans.

So you disagree with this building in this location. Fine, it is your right to be an ignorant piece of sh#t."

Does anyone else see the irony of those two sentences following one another?

well, uh yeah....bluering didnt write it, wes did....
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Aug 19, 2010 - 03:26pm PT
Meanwhile, former George W. Bush solicitor general Ted Olson backed the project. Olson, who recently won his case to strike down California's gay marriage ban in federal court, lost his wife in the 9-11 attacks.
"I do believe that people of all religions have a right to build edifices, or structures, or places of religious worship or study, where the community allows them to do it under zoning laws and that sort of thing," he said on MSNBC. "We don't want to turn an act of hate against us by extremists into an act of intolerance for people of religious faith."
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Aug 19, 2010 - 03:29pm PT
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 19, 2010 - 03:33pm PT
skipt,

there is no sewer, water or power in the bc......yet.
Mtnmun

Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
Aug 19, 2010 - 03:42pm PT
Here, the truth about the Republican smear and fear campaign towards the Mosque at ground zero. (sorry if this has already been posted, but Keith Olbermann blows their manipulative cover.)These are the same tactics that got us into Iraq, murdered thousands of our soldiers and innocent people, raped the national treasury and made the industrial war machine filthy rich. They are at it again. The worst enemy to America are the Republicans.

http://vodpod.com/watch/4246079-keith-olbermann-special-comment-there-is-no-ground-zero-mosque-081610





philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Aug 19, 2010 - 03:50pm PT
Does anyone understand what Skipty is trying to say?


And Fats, your irrelevance is remarkable.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 19, 2010 - 03:52pm PT
I would vote to keep this church out of the back country too.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100819/ap_on_re_us/us_church_sept11_quran_burning


Officials in a Florida city have denied a burn permit for a church that is seeking to burn copies of the Quran on Sept. 11.


I am beginning to think some people don't understand the difference between private property and public land.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 19, 2010 - 04:38pm PT
How many mosques in the US have, in the last decade, been denied needed zoning and permits, simply because they were mosques rather than temples, synagogues, or churches?
krahmes

Social climber
Stumptown
Aug 19, 2010 - 04:38pm PT
You know I lived about 2.5 years across the street from a village mosque in West Java. I’m not very religious and found Islam to be coercive and judgmental far beyond modern Christianity, Buddhism, or Hinduism.

Once when I was pissing out my ass and burning with fever for a three day stretch; the AM/PM caterwaul about drove me out of my head; I would’ve taken a rocket launcher to that place, if I’d had one. I’ve heard the call to prayer likened to church bells; it’s a lie.

Muslim ritualistic fetishes, as Hemingway and Burton, noted can lead the followers of Islam to a false (at least to my West Civ educated mind) sense of superiority which when they are shown to be less in station (or to be a fool) often turns to a sullen, brooding anger. We see a lesser version of this in the Christian right.

When the revolution finally came in 1998 they burned the few churches in Garut and Tasik and mobbed the 3-4 generation Indo-Chinese maybe because of their race, but more for their religion; it certainly must’ve have been the justification.

I can boil this war down to Hegelian notions about religion on their side and the control of the oil supply on ours. The only thing that really surprised me on 911 was that it wasn’t a nuke.

This group has the right to build a mosque near the 911 WTC site, but they’ve earned my scorn with their lack of cultural sensitivity. If I heard from the Imam that he supported religious and ideologically freedom (including the right for any religion or atheists to proselytize) anywhere in the world including the Arab peninsula he’d get my support; be he won’t. So for my part I’ll let him turn and twist in the wind from the likes of Fox News.

I mean this is America people- land of Waco, Rajneeshpuram, pervasive anti-Semitism and anti-Catholicism prior to World War II, and really how did the Mormons end up in Salt Lake City. You can draw bloody trail from Cromwell’s sword to the Winthrop’s, “City on Hill” to the neo-Capitalism Evangelicals of today. It all works out; or it doesn’t.

Bemused to see the irreligious alternet.org crowd rise to the defense to this pathetic excuse for a religion which even Joseph Campbell seemed have trouble praising, perhaps you all believe the Buddha of Bamyan will reconstitute itself. Even more bemused to see the race card, the xenophobe fear of the other trotted out as insults; a mirror really to your hates, fears, and bigotries.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 19, 2010 - 04:39pm PT
Getting denied a burn permit is NOT a religious issue.

i dunno, if you were one of those radical muslims who was gonna burn yoself and was denied the permit it could be...
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 19, 2010 - 04:42pm PT
From that stripper link

"After the World Trade Center towers fell, a stripper named Chris went to volunteer in the recovery effort for the Red Cross. Nearly 10 years later, she dances just down the street from Ground Zero at the Pussycat Lounge.

Thousands of workers spend their days toiling in the neighborhood around the World Trade Center site, a space that had gained renewed national attention amid controversial plans to build an Islamic center there.

The project, known as Park51, is opposed by a majority of New York City residents in recent opinion polls. Politicians both local and national argue that the plan is insensitive to families touched by the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks. Former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, among others, has referred to the area around Ground Zero as “hallowed ground.”

I can't believe they don't close the strip clubs on hallowed ground. Don't folks know that the 9-11 hijackers went to strip clubs before they hijacked the planes!!!!
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
Aug 19, 2010 - 04:45pm PT
This is the biggest tempest in a teapot since Terri Schrivo.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Aug 19, 2010 - 05:03pm PT
Bemused to see the irreligious alternet.org crowd rise to the defense to this pathetic excuse for a religion which even Joseph Campbell seemed have trouble praising

You're kind of missing the point with that observation. While your post provides several instances of the public's intolerance of religion, you commit the same error with that comment.

It doesn't matter what you think of the religion. The issue is, in a country where religious freedom is guaranteed by the Constitution, why has this become such a big issue were it not for the fact that lots of Americans hate Muslims.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 19, 2010 - 05:07pm PT
From

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/08/19/poll-only-a-third-of-americans-say-obama-is-christian-almost-one-in-five-say-hes-muslim/?hpt=Sbin

"A substantial and growing chunk of the country believes that President Obama, a self-described Christian, is Muslim, while only about a third of Americans are able to correctly identify his religion, according to a survey released Thursday.

Nearly one in five Americans believe Obama is a Muslim, up from around one in 10 Americans who said he was Muslim last year, according to the survey, conducted by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life.

While most of those who think Obama is Muslim are Republicans, the number of independents who believe he is Muslim has expanded significantly, from 10 percent last year to 18 percent now..."

WHat kind of journalism is practiced in this country and how stupid are we when 1 in 5 people think Obama is a Muslim and only 1-3 know he's a christian.

How can we continue to call ourselves the greatest country and expect things to stay prosperous when we don't give a sh#t and let ourselves be lied to and manipulated

Peace

Karl
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 19, 2010 - 05:16pm PT
The issue is, in a country where religious freedom is guaranteed by the Constitution, why has this become such a big issue were it not for the fact that lots of Americans hate Muslims

strange thing is how the same right wingers will attack anyone outside the norm, even themselves. case in point, Mitt Romney a mormon. when he was running for GOP presidential nominee the other nominees were bringing up his religion as detriment for a presidential candidate. funny thing is the mormons are all right wingers and take that crap. stranger still, they forget that it is this right to practice religion that gives all fringe religions the right to practice their religion. makes my head explode
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 19, 2010 - 06:16pm PT
I suppose this is all appropriate given the intolerance and bigotry of the indignant right mirrors that of a lot of conservative and fundamental muslims.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Aug 19, 2010 - 06:35pm PT
I suppose this is all appropriate given the intolerance and bigotry of the indignant right mirrors that of a lot of conservative and fundamental muslims.

Absolutely. Orthodoxy in its various manifestations usually displays a remarkable intolerance for other points of view. The problem gets even worse when you have those who are politically motivated who use a religious idiom to spread their message. The Taliban are genuinely interested in imposing Sharia law to maintain political power. Conservative evangelicals in this country want to vote into office individuals who will force schoolchildren to pray their prayers and to study their notions of "biblical" science.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 19, 2010 - 06:36pm PT
We used to think that 666 posts was a big thread. They would take weeks to build up.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Aug 19, 2010 - 06:59pm PT
Well Skipt then what's your take on the Jewish historical center being built atop one of the most significant and ancient Palestinian grave yards?

Goose? Gander? What's your righteous take?
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Aug 19, 2010 - 07:52pm PT
When the issue first came into the news I really didn’t care much either way even though I have a close relative who worked at Cantor Fitzgerald (658 employees killed) who took a sick day on 9-11 after partying too hard at my Dad’s birthday party and even though one of my father’s best friends, the manager of the Windows on the World restaurant atop the towers was killed.

I took the position in favor of religious freedom and that was that. But my feelings on this thing have changed largely due to the behavior of Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf. He professes to be a bridge builder, that the purpose of his Islamic Center is outreach. Yet a great majority of the people he wants to reach out to are offended by his plans. It seems to me that a seeker of peace and brotherhood, upon realizing his efforts were causing great offense, would rethink his plans and accept the offers to help find a more appropriate location. But he has dug in his heels. This is what changes everything for me. His behavior is more that of a warrior than a peacemaker.

Legally he can build his center but I sincerely wish he would not.

A side story: The old Burlington Coat Factory building, about half of the land to be developed was worth as much as 18 million until the landing gear from United flight 175 fell through the roof damaging the structure and leaving the building abandoned until today. Recently the Muslim run Soho Properties bought the building for 4.85 million cash, so the folks building the Mosque got a sweet deal on the property thanks to the 9-11 attacks.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 19, 2010 - 07:55pm PT
Weschrist writes:

"Put blurring, chaz, cornhole chomper, and other right wing Christian nut jobs in there with the Islamic Extremists"

Hey! Don't lump me in with that crew. I'm not even Christian.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 19, 2010 - 08:02pm PT
A side story: The old Burlington Coat Factory building, about half of the land to be developed was worth as much as 18 million until the landing gear from United flight 175 fell through the roof damaging the structure and leaving the building abandoned until today. Recently the Muslim run Soho Properties bought the building for 4.85 million cash, so the folks building the Mosque got a sweet deal on the property thanks to the 9-11 attacks.

Yeah, I heard that too, Kris. And that also makes that building part of 'ground zero' even nobody was killed there...
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 19, 2010 - 08:20pm PT
Not in my petting zoo she doesn't!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 19, 2010 - 08:31pm PT
You are not a battered woman... you are not a New Yorker... you weren't anywhere near NY... your only connection to the WTC tragedy is the boob tube... you are a sheep.

Is it still cool to sympathize with the feeling of other (pissed NYers)? The Imam obviously doesn't, but many Americans do. 70% roughly.

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 19, 2010 - 08:31pm PT
dear taco denizens,

every time you open this thread god kills a kitten.


Interesting God you worship.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 19, 2010 - 08:36pm PT
Note, though, that the majority of the people who ACTUALLY LIVE THERE, Manhattan, are in favor.

Also note that taken as a whole, New Yorker don't want it built AT ALL, ANYWHERE. So much for the "spirit of compromise".

There was a time in the country when people advocated for local rights.....oh, that was conservatives! What happened to that?


A majority of New Yorkers oppose plans to build a mosque and Muslim cultural center two blocks from Ground Zero, according to a Quinnipiac University Poll released Thursday.

Fifty-two percent of the respondents said they did not want the mosque to be built at all, 31 percent are in favor of it, and 17 percent are undecided.

"New York enjoys a reputation as one of the most tolerant places in America, but New Yorkers are opposed to a proposal to build a mosque two blocks from Ground Zero," said Quinnipiac University Polling Institute Director Maurice Carroll in a press release.

"Is it because we're still nursing the wounds from the terrorist attack on the World Trade Center or is it more like bigotry?" he asked.

Broken down by borough, Manhattan was the most in favor of the mosque, with only 36 percent of residents against it. On the other end of the spectrum was Staten Island, where 73 percent of respondents were opposed.

"Liberal Manhattan accepts the mosque and trusts Islam," observed Carroll. "Staten Island, where there's controversy about another proposed mosque, is more skeptical."

According to the poll, 56 percent of white voters, 45 percent of black voters, and 60 percent of Hispanic voters oppose the mosque. Along religious lines, 66 percent of Jews, 66 percent of Catholics, and 46 percent of Protestants were opposed.

The poll also researched New Yorkers' opinions of Islam. Fifty-five percent of New Yorkers believe that mainstream Islam is a "peaceful religion, while only 22 percent said Islam "encourages violence against non-Muslims." Twenty-three percent of New Yorkers are undecided. The full report can be found here.

Quinnipiac researchers questioned 1,183 registered New York City voters from June 21-28. The margin of error was approximately 2.9 points.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 19, 2010 - 08:40pm PT

Is it still cool to sympathize with the feeling of other (pissed NYers)? The Imam obviously doesn't, but many Americans do. 70% roughly.

Hey Blue, could it be because so many Americans get their news from fox news, a leading source of misinformation in this country.

Mosque being built on ground zero.. false
Imam hates America.. false
Terrorist organizations funding mosque.. false
Greek church not allowed to rebuild.. false.

Do you see a pattern?

How close is too close to ground zero? Fox news tries to sensationalize the news, leading people into fear.

Might doesn't make right.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Aug 19, 2010 - 08:54pm PT
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 19, 2010 - 08:56pm PT
Mosque being built on ground zero.. false
Imam hates America.. false
Terrorist organizations funding mosque.. false
Greek church not allowed to rebuild.. false.

Do you see a pattern?

Yes.

Mosque prayer area on top floor - check

Imam working to institute sharia law - check

Terrorists funding mosque - We don't know anything because they HIDE funding.

Greek Church not allowed to rebuild - Check, the "deal is dead" as of now.

See a pattern?
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 19, 2010 - 09:14pm PT
Yes.

Mosque prayer area on top floor - check

Imam working to institute sharia law - check

Terrorists funding mosque - We don't know anything because they HIDE funding.

Greek Church not allowed to rebuild - Check, the "deal is dead" as of now.

See a pattern?

Nope..

Mosque prayer area on top floor. But the top floor isn't at ground zero, so fox news mislead.

"Terrorists funding mosque - We don't know anything because they HIDE funding".... who gives a sh#t who is funding it? Why is this important if the main Imam building the church teaches getting along? Do you know anything about Sufis? They aren't the radicals of Islam so the chance that some money might come from a group with ties to terrorism is incredibly slim. This is a very misleading argument. Do you know how many crooks attend church? How much money do Christian churches get from out and out crooks? How many politicians have been caught lying and cheating and stealing while claiming to be righteous, tithe paying members of some church? Does that mean the church shouldn't use their money?

"Greek Church not allowed to rebuild - Check, the "deal is dead" as of now." Uh.. what deal? That they can't use government money to build a church. check.. I have no problem with that. They have insurance, that is what it is for. More misleading crap making people think that a mosque is being allowed to be built at ground zero, while a greek church is not. This just isn't true. The mosque isn't at ground zero and the greek church could rebuild, just not with government money.

Check and mate.. Fox news is a misleading pile of crap.
WBraun

climber
Aug 19, 2010 - 09:22pm PT
Don't you people know that Rupert Murdoch is an envious snake in a mans body.

The fuker hates Arabs.

He's an evil snake .....
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Aug 19, 2010 - 09:23pm PT
Cool Ron now you will have a place to feel safe.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 19, 2010 - 09:24pm PT
John, you don't maybe realize how wrong you are.

Is it really not ground zero? It was within landing gear range of the incident, and was actually hit by debris.

As for the Church, the state agreed to help out. They offered to rebuild it at a certain expense. This is diffent than your idiotic Church/State argument. The state failed the Church and offered to repair/rebuild it.

The whole separation crap is BS. Do some research on it. Is it o.k. for the taxpayer to fund an Imam to go globetrotting around the world to preach Islamic tolerance?

...that's what I thought....
edejom

Boulder climber
Butte, America
Aug 19, 2010 - 09:47pm PT
"Is it really not ground zero? It was within landing gear range of the incident, and was actually hit by debris."--Bluering


Are you serious here with that statement?


Debris from 2 crashing and exploding airliners defines your hallowed "Ground Zero" line of demarcation?


Holy crap, Bluey--your mergence of 80's hippie with modern conservative has made you batty, sir...



But please, keep up with whatever it is your doing--I don't get cable TV and need the entertainment:-)
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 19, 2010 - 09:53pm PT
Debris from 2 crashing and exploding airliners defines your hallowed "Ground Zero" line of demarcation?

Yeah, that's I how see it....
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Aug 19, 2010 - 09:54pm PT
Honestly, if the location (actual ground zero - the footprint of the former WTCs) really is that sacred, why build anything there at all?

An honest question - I'm not being a smarty-pants (a rare moment).
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Aug 19, 2010 - 10:11pm PT
"A side story: The old Burlington Coat Factory building, about half of the land to be developed was worth as much as 18 million until the landing gear from United flight 175 fell through the roof damaging the structure and leaving the building abandoned until today. Recently the Muslim run Soho Properties bought the building for 4.85 million cash, so the folks building the Mosque got a sweet deal on the property thanks to the 9-11 attacks."

The Imam has been operating a mosque in the neighborhood for years, starting long before the 9/11 attacks. They are looking to expand. They needed a good location, near public transportation at an affordable price. I believe that this is the main reason why they bought this building, it fits all of the criteria.

The property was for sale and anyone could have bought it and presumably "got a sweet deal on the property thanks to the 9/11 attacks" but everyone else in the market for real estate either did not place the same value on the property, or were looking for an even sweeter deal, because they didn't buy it.

It's kind of interesting how you describe Soho Properties as the "Muslim run Soho Properties." Descriptors like that ("Muslim") are usually only used when people think that it is relevant, and I question whether it is here.

If I visit New York and decide to visit Ground Zero, and I take a taxi cab that has a driver who just happens to be Muslim, should this also be described as a "Muslim getting a sweet deal because of 9/11"?

Much of the commerce in lower Manhattan and most of the real estate prices have been influenced by 9/11 and Ground Zero. So I suppose some would say that Muslims should stay away from Lower Manhattan altogether.

A shopping center is being built on Ground Zero. Are we going to see any outcry if there are any Muslim-owned shops there, or if any Muslim is so "insensitive" as to shop there?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Aug 19, 2010 - 10:13pm PT
Crimper, you are not the only one is wondering about that.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-cesca/ground-zero-mosque-oppone_b_685164.html
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 19, 2010 - 10:35pm PT
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100819/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_saudi_justice

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 19, 2010 - 10:51pm PT
Honestly, if the location (actual ground zero - the footprint of the former WTCs) really is that sacred, why build anything there at all?

An honest question - I'm not being a smarty-pants (a rare moment).

That may be why it's taken so long to build there. But I'm sure lawyers and unions aren't helping.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 19, 2010 - 10:53pm PT
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Aug 19, 2010 - 10:53pm PT
Can't be as they started preparing the site for reconstruction a loooong time ago (I was there - saw it with my own orbs).

The delays have nothing to do with it being sacred ground it appears to me. Honestly, only recently have I heard talk that it is sacred or hallowed.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 19, 2010 - 11:00pm PT
Can't be as they started preparing the site for reconstruction a loooong time ago (I was there - saw it with my own orbs).

The delays have nothing to do with it being sacred ground it appears to me. Honestly, only recently have I heard talk that it is sacred or hallowed.

Nobody is claiming your wrongful remark, that it it's "hallowed" or "sacred", WTF????

A saint didn't die there! It was American citizens. That's why people object. Not because a Saint died there, but because American workers died there. And their families protest it.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Aug 19, 2010 - 11:07pm PT
I don't follow your comments Blue.

Your comments:

"Nobody is claiming your wrongful remark, that it it's "hallowed" or "sacred", WTF????

A saint didn't die there! It was American citizens. That's why people object. Not because a Saint died there, but because American workers died there. And their families protest it."

(don't know how to quote formally)
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 19, 2010 - 11:48pm PT
Wrong, yet again, Blue...........

http://saintmychaljudge.blogspot.com/

Saint Mychal Judge
To encourage greater Faith, Hope & Love through "the saint of 9/11"


Father Judge's body bag was labeled "Victim 0001," recognized as the first official victim of the September 11, 2001 attacks. Former President Bill Clinton was among the 3,000 people who attended his funeral, held on September 15 at St. Francis of Assisi Church in Manhattan. It was presided over by Cardinal Edward Egan. Clinton said his death was "a special loss. We should live his life as an example of what has to prevail." Judge was buried at Holy Sepulchre Cemetery in Totowa, New Jersey.[14]

There have been calls within the Roman Catholic Church to canonize Judge to sainthood.[15][16] Several churches independent of Rome, most notably the Orthodox Catholic Church of America, have declared him a saint.[18][19]

Some Catholic leaders recognize Judge as a de facto saint.[20] Some assert that Mychal Judge has already been declared a saint by widespread acclamation of the faithful, as was the custom of the early Church.[21] There have been claims of miraculous healings through prayers to Judge.[22] Evidence of miracles is required for canonization to Sainthood in the Catholic Church.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Aug 20, 2010 - 12:08am PT
Hmmm. Maybe you mean that no one has called the ground zero plot hallowed or sacred? If this is what you mean, that language is all over all sorts of news outlets.

I'm certainly not saying the place is not special. It is. People died there. People were terribly injured there. People were severely traumatized there.

My earlier question was just wondering why if it is so sacred/hallowed why *anything* is being built there. I personally haven't heard that language used about it before the recent controversy.

And further, why a stink isn't being raised regarding the Pentagon.

These are genuine questions I have. If I've misconstrued your remarks - sorry. I'm just not clear on your earlier post.