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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Capitalism needs to be balanced with socialism. (trust me, it totally does)
Globalism needs to be balanced with protectionism.
Agree with your first point, DMT, if by "socialism" you mean enforced sharing. Strongly disagree with the second, however. Protectionism hurts everyone not protected and wastes resources, skills and comparative advantage. Use some of that "socialism' to ameliorate the dislocations of international trade, and everyone will be better off, because specialization is productive.
John
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Gobalism is a real joke as a concept. We have given countries who in the past have said, "We will bury you," most favored nation trading status. Now they are burying us financially. The only thing that China imports from the U.S. is jobs.
With the global communication network, you call a computer or software company for "support" and you get someone who barely speaks English, much less, is actually capable of "helping" you!
Getting back to the original title of this thread, re: Infrastructure, there is no money left to maintain the infrastructure, much less expand or improve same.
What every one here is really complaining about is Corporatism, the corporate state. It's worse than socialism, communism, fascism, or just about any other "ism." It has bled this country dry of jobs, capital, all at the behest of big international corporations. Key word: International.
How much merchandise do you see on the shelves, other than food, at Wal-Mart that is "Made in the U.S.A.?" Even food, substandard and often contaminated, is coming from China. Farm raised fish, shrimp, etc. that are not raised to USDA standards is on their shelves. I simply don't buy any foodstuffs made in China in simple self-defense of my own health.
And they are helping the "little people." Bull$hit.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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By reliance on overses manufactue to "reduce consumer costs" we have lowered ourselves to their labor markets as well. The only way Americans can get jobs these days is at Chinese labor prices.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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glad dingus brought up china here.
i live in los angeles, whose major industry has become being the port for monster ships coming in from china with all these cheap goods being pipelined into every walmart ("lowest prices--always") as well as every mom-and-pop general store in the u.s.a.
i'm a carpenter, and when i buy tools i don't mind spending some bucks on the best quality available. this used to involve milwaukee sawzalls, made in milwaukee, bosch miter saws, made in germany, makita grinders and drills, made in japan. now they're all made in china for these companies, and quality is a crapshoot.
nothing against the chinese, but all the best ones have either fled the country or are rotting in prisons. maybe they get to tighten a screw on a grinder once in awhile.
and do you want to know what the chinese do with all the money they're vacuuming out of our pockets? they turn right around and buy u.s. treasury bills, helping finance the foreign adventures of the bushobamas. i won't draw any conclusions on that. y'all figure it out and tell me.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Can you maybe try and be an actual Republican for once and teach people how to chase their own dollars instead of thinking it OK to chase other peoples?
You mean you want Wall Street capitalists to actually stop leeching off of us and start pulling their own weight? Not much chance of that happening.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Tony-
There is NO product that the Chinese can't make "a little cheaper," albiet with significant lowered quality and reliability.
Cripes! Even the new Cessna Skycatcher all composite airplane is being built in China. I value my own a$$ enough to never get into one. I'll never forgive Cessna for that move!
I know exactly what you mean about tools--especially Milwaukee. I have quite a few older Milwaukee tools that are exceptionally good. I'll keep them forever and screw the newer bright red ones.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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There is NO product that the Chinese can't make "a little cheaper," albiet with significant lowered quality and reliability.
I question that statement.
First, differences in quality differentiate products. A Steinway and a Pearl River both have 88 keys, but they aren't the same instrument. Asian manufacturers have been trying for decades to match the quality of top American and European pianos without success. As good as Yamaha and Kawai are, they simply don't have access to the woods needed to produce the best sound, and I'm sure China is no different. So China can build a piano with lower wage rates, but it can't build a Steinway for less, which is why they're still made in New York.
Also, infrastructure matters. Steinway could pay less per hour for Chinese labor to assemble pianos, say, but the cost of training, setting up shop, sending in materials, and then re-doing them for sale in the U.S. makes their total labor cost prohibitive. The issue for business isn't wage rates, it's unit labor cost, and there are still a great many goods for which US labor has the lowest unit labor costs.
In fact, the economy is, and always will be in flux if people are free. About 150 years ago, when the railroads revolutionized transportation possiblities, specialized manufacturers could turn out cheaper and better products than local craftsmen. This hurt the local craftsmen, and helped everyone else. It's still happening. If you decry globalization, you're denying the economic reality that specializaiton is productive.
So how does this fit in California? We had a very highly educated labor force, excellent transportation infrastructure, a productive water system, and abundant sunshine. This made us a leader in agriculture, high-tech industries, entertainment and the production of knowledge. As we've neglected our infrasture (see topic title) and, instead, spent more of our state resources on Quixotic quests and buying votes, our relative productivity, and hence our ability to obtain good income, declined.
John
Edit: The original version of this post shows the danger of trying to sneak in a comment while I'm working. There must have been at least a dozen typos!
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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I think that you inadvertently made my point for me: a Steinway is a Steinway, not just a piano. Point: they don't have the woods. They could build something and put a Steinway name on it , but a Rubenstein or Gilels would know that it was a Chinese "knock off" from the first note played. Just because something is called a Milwaukee tool doesn;t make it the "real thing" either, regardless of the label.
Too many people just don't know or just don't care enough to demand the "real thing."
john; You did hit the nail on the head with the comment about the "Quixotic guests and buying votes."
Overall great comments that I enjoyed reading.
Rodger
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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I agree with Rodger, here. Not because I'm a xenophobe, but too many times I've seen Chinese and some other low-quality tools just fail. They don't care! And I think that is a big difference between the people who used to manufacture American tools and the low-wage Chinese workers and their overlords.
They don't care about reputation, pride in workmanship, and quality. It's more about quantity. Many, many, Americans are willing to pay more for an American made product with pride in the U.S.A.
I've heard the argument about Bosch, Craftsman, et. el. maintaining quality in their factories overseas, but it's largely public relations BS. I've seen it firsthand (tools falling apart)!!!
And that's not taking into account that you're sending jobs overseas. There are many skilled machinists and crafstmen that have suffered from this.
It's only a matter of time before I'm hit too (electronics manufacturing).
Even Taiwan has electronics quality issues....trust me.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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zhangyuyu, what is your point?
Fatty, yeah, just another problem with unions....
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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That's why Pontiacs are so popular! ;>) er.....gone.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Rox-
My first car was a 1954 Pontiac straight eight! Not an easy car to learn on...real stiff clutch (no automatics for my old man!)
Edit: I had the year posted wrong!
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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We tell the Chinese to make cheap junk, and that's what they give us. If you think the Chinese are incapable of building quality goods you're in for a big shock.
Prop 13 killed California's infrastructure, that's why we're going down the tubes. All so the corporations can make a last big killing. They know capitalism doesn't work, that's why they won't invest in it, just suck out what they can while they still can.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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making the entire HF band hum with static and noise I've experienced the same issues. It's good to know there are other climbers who know about HF bands (see the Ham Radio thread,infra.)
John
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Duke
Social climber
PSP
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Fatty- I am loath to agree with you on the politics given my lifelong left bent, however, in the case of CA what you say is true.
I am not able to move the CA piece of my business, but can and will move my residency out of the state.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Keep Wyoming beautiful....don't move here! ;>)
Wyoming bumper sticker.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Was that Jim Arnold the beloved former 426 or another Arnold with those crazy ideas?
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Duke
Social climber
PSP
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Nevada
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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The real problem in Cali is the shrinking tax base in the face of a burgoening "Quixotic visitor" population. I'm surprised that the "quick band aid fix" hasn't been a "temporary" increase in the sales tax and gasoline tax to cover the revenue shortfall. Even though painful, it catches everyone in proportion to their spending. The state could also impose a special "international funds transfer tax" to catch some of the money being transferred by the "visitors" back to the "mother country." Mainly the problem is still spending more than is taken in by revenue, and handle finances in the same manner individuals need do. i.e. "Don't have---don't spend."
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Option: reduce "entitlements" comensurately to match revenue received. Try to maintain essential services, i.e. fire protection, road repairs/construction/ police protection, etc. and cut everything else. It's a hard situation, but "bite the bullet."
There's a military axiom: "He who trys to defend everything defends nothing," would seem to have an analogue here. Hard choices, and most politicians who are in the vote-buying business, cannot be trusted to make them.
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