Assistance Needed Identifying Old Chouinard-Frost Piolet

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 41 - 60 of total 122 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jun 12, 2010 - 12:17am PT
re: OP; laminated hickory I tell you. Don't listen to those other wankers. Unless "rexelon" and laminated hickory is the same thing?? I thought rexalon was a synthetic shaft, which this clearly isn't.
RDB

Social climber
way out there
Jun 12, 2010 - 01:35am PT
"The rexilon shaft on Chouinard ice axes was made of a laminate of
18-layers of beech ("faggio" in Italian). It was originally used for
pole-vaulting poles in the days before fiberglass composites. CAMP used
this before bamboo but both were available for a while."

As others have already said yours is Rexilon. Tough as nails but hated the funky white that showed up after hard use in the wet. Wish I had bought several now.

Hey Ray, trivia for you, the axe Gwain took to Deborah was a 75cm Rexilon that replaced with a 70cm synthetic handled orange Nanga Parbat. IIRC he then bought a short bamboo Piolet and dropped that one the Eiger.

Never could figure out why he wouldn't pay $5.00 more for a lighter axe. That Rexilon one was a real battle axe!

Fritz

Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
Jun 12, 2010 - 11:44am PT
Dane: I don’t recall stocking the Rexilon Piolets in my shop.

To me: it was all about the esthetics of the laminated bamboo.

As for needing a stronger shaft for the legendary “boot-axe” belay: I sure as hell, refused to sell the orange MSR Thunderbird (day-glow metal monsters). We didn't do the "boot-axe" belays either.



Here's a shot of you & Gwain at our bivy on Deborah, with a Piolet in background------and a Pterodactyl.

Credit: Fritz
RDB

Social climber
way out there
Jun 12, 2010 - 12:59pm PT
Unbelieveable I just realised what I am doing there. Writing in my journal. I'll have to dig that out and see what I wrote. Gwain picking his feet or what :) But think he is cmaking water on an msr.


Two Piolets in that picture :) Yellow slinged one on the left sunk to the head is mine (still have it) directly in front of the terro with the red sling (Gwain's). Hey, remember that nasty mixed section from the previous night's climbing? And your wart hog I broke? I had liked Terros beforehand but decided Terros really rocked that night :) The Piolet in the back ground with the blue sling is Gwain's. It is Rexilon and loooong. Never did know for sure where he bought it but maybe it was Selkirk Bergsport in Spokane. I know he really liked my bamboo. (Hell he used my Zeros and left both of them in a thunder storm which took years to get back but that is as they say, "another story") Got the feeling he just refused to be a follower. But just as easily he could have got it in Seattle on sale! I never saw many of them. I do know exactly where he lost his though :) He refused to climb with a short Forrest axe we had as a spare. (BJ's picture previous) Bad morning that.



Funny with all the lore behind Jeff and Mike using 70cm piolets on the 1st ascent of Bridalveil, there is a pretty clear picture of Mike in Jeff's book using a short north wall hammer as well on the 2nd pitch of BFalls.

I asked Jello about it once but never heard back. Maybe he'll chime in here.

I'm reminded of that because I remember Gwain trying to lead the pillar on Louise with that battle axe (heavy and long) and my shorter piolet the same season as your pictures posted above. We failed of course. Took a set of terrodactyls to finally get up the thing. Which were then lowered to the second. Pretty funny now in retrospect when we climb the pillar now :)

Anyone remember bending the picks on a Terrodactyl?
RDB

Social climber
way out there
Jun 12, 2010 - 01:19pm PT
Here is a short hickory Piolet



and a longer bamboo Piolet



Pretty easy to recognise the difference when you see all three (if you add the Rexilon) together.


Gwain terro in hand.



James with a Zero bamboo hammer on Deltaform.

rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jun 12, 2010 - 05:02pm PT
from: http://www.bradleyalpinist.com/cart/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=28

Chouinard-Frost Piolet
First a little history on the Piolet. Alpinism is said to have been born in the Alps as early as 1786 with the first summit of Mont Blanc. By 1840, the Piolet or ice axe became the inseparable companion and icon of the Alpinist. In 1919, one notable piolet manufacturer in the Alps was Construzione Articoli Montagna Premana (translates to Articles for Mountaineering Made in Premana), or what we know even today as C.A.M.P., which was operated by Antonio Codega, the son of a prominent blacksmith in Premana, Italy, Nicola Codega. Hand forged in Nicola's original shop, Antonio Codega was contracted by the Italian government to produce piolets and other mountain equipment for the military. Eventually joined by Antonio's four sons, C.A.M.P. began making many other tools for climbing, such as pitons, hammers, and crampons. A frequenter of Premana, the famous Italian mountaineer, Riccardo Cassin began helping the Codegas on design innovations. Somewhere long about 1969, Yvon Chouinard and Tom Frost, of Chouinard Equipment in Ventura, California, commissioned the Codega brothers to build an axe to their specifications. This axe, called the Chouinard-Frost Piolet, featured a hand forged, ground and polished chrome-nickle steel head and a hickory shaft, and has since been a mountaineering equipment classic in the both the US and in the Alps. By printing time of Chouinard Equipment's first catalog in 1972, the Chouinard Piolet shown on page 34 had a new laminated bamboo shaft design, dubbed to be lighter weight and just as strong as the hickory shafted orginal. Over the next 7 years, the Chouinard Piolet went through a few other design changes, including a revised marking on the head, omitting "Frost" from "Chouinard-Frost". This change was first seen in the 1978 catalog, even though Tom Frost had left the company years earlier, in 1975. Other designs of the Piolet included a version with two sections of teeth or notches(double-toothed) on the drooped and curved pick. In other modifications, the shaft material changed again, first to a laminated hickory, then laminated ash for a short time, and eventually a synthetic called Rexilon in 1979, after the UIAA began to raise concerns with the integrity of "wooden" axe shafts. All wooden shafted variations of the Chouinard's Piolet were made by C.A.M.P., but the axe model was phased out of production after 1979. Following this, the Codegas still offered virtually the same ice axe (same head, with bamboo or hickory shafts)in Europe, sans the Chouinard marking (although markings still included "Interalp", "CAMP" and "Made in Premana" which are all also found on the "Chouinard-Frost: and "Chouinard" stamped versions). In the early 80's, the REI Coop contracted with with C.A.M.P., having this same axe design orginated by Chouinard, stamped with the REI logo. These axes were offered in REI's original Seattle store through the mid 1980's. From time to time we will feature these classic Chouinard Piolets on this site, and are always open to buying them from those ready to part with the most trusted companion of their early mountaineering days. These items are sold as "used", and the condition of each item will vary; however, we will not sell one of these vintage axes that is worse for wear, and/or "classic challenged". These Piolets are for collectors, and are gear you'll want to hang on the wall or over the fireplace. In each case, when we have a Piolet available, and it is sold, a percentage of the proceeds will be donated to particular climbing related charity, rescue/recovery fund, or memorial fund. If we have not listed any Piolets today, please keep checking back with us, or perhaps you would like us to buy yours. The charity beneficiary that is associated with an available axe will be indicated in the description. BE SURE TO SEE OUR ALPINIST'S PIOLET CUFF (bracelet), inspired by the double toothed pick version of the Chouinard-Frost Piolet, found in the Alpinist Jewlery section of this site. Its a must have signiture piece for both men and women.
Tobia

Social climber
GA
Jun 12, 2010 - 05:29pm PT
Credit: Tobia

The only ice I have ever used this axe on was either frozen red clay on wheels of my truck or in a bird bath... that is just about all you would use it for in GA.

I am posting it here hoping a certain lurker from the Tahoe area will recognize it. It looks just like it did 28 years or so ago when he gave it to me after a summer in the meadows.

He must have used it extensively from the wear on it and the brazed repair. I don't know if it is a Chouinard-Frost or not; the name would be stamped right where the repair was made. His name is carved in the handle on the other side and I will put it up later if he doesn't bite.

Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Jun 13, 2010 - 12:02am PT
The adze looks to be cupped which would rule out anything Chouinard. Well used tool though!
RDB

Social climber
way out there
Jun 13, 2010 - 12:18am PT
Steve, I'd bet the axe above is a Stubia, serrate adze gives it away. Good droop in the pick would make it a Everest Ralling (likely) or a Nanga Parbat. It should be marked. Tobia?

Mike, with due respect, I don't think the Bradley comments are the end all in historical accuracy. Looks more like a sales pitch to off load over priced axes.

2nd soft cover catalog in '76 offered Rexilon piolets. Which means the rexilon was out way before the '76 printing. I know they were available winter of '75/'76 because my partner had one! By the fall of '78 the Chouinard bamboo Piolets were gone in the US and Europe. They weren't strong enough to meet the UIAA standards in either form. Even Snell's in Cham didn't have them but they did have a few of the bamboo Interalp clones in the sale bin...I bought three to bring home and made 50cm Zeros out of them.

Bottom axe is a Piolet bamboo clone cut as a Zero. The other two are bamboo as well, one new and the other well used.


The '78 catalog shows painted bamboo Zeros as carbon fiber and the first carbon fiber piolets with Interalp hand forged heads.

Europe got hickory, rexilon and bamboo Chouinard tools and a big dump of hickory and bamboo non Chouinard marked piolets in the end. The Chouinard-Frost logo changed to Chouinard sometime between '76 and before '78. Long before '78 if the cataog typical publish date and when the gear was available was any indication. Catalogs were always months if not years behind current production and availability.

No laminated ash or hickory that I know or seen anyone document beyond speculation. Rexilon is not a synthetic but a simple wood laminate. Grivel also used Rexilon for some of their early technical axes from the same time frame, mid '70s.
Credit: RDB

Interalp/Camp did make a McKindley axe that was similar to the Chouinard Piolet for REI as early as 1980. Close examination shows there are a lot of differences. They had a positive clearence pick, a slightly curved adze and a ash or rexilon shaft. 1980 catalog shows ash shafted axes. Same big profile Chouinard spike though. They show on ebay once in awhile but they aren't piolets or a close copy of the original.



rexilon


Couple of threads here including the "Ice Primer" thread that offer some good references by those involved at the time. Doug Robinson's comments come to mind.

This is recent picture of an untouched bamboo piolet (dbl teeth, single Chouinard stamped) with the sales stickers still atatched circa 1978. You can see how it is yellowed over time.



Here is a hickory piolet in similar shape without the stickers and the natural darker color and grain of hickory showing well.



And finally hickory handled hammers with bamboo axes. As you can see hickory could come with losts of variation.
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jun 13, 2010 - 04:09pm PT
Maybe we can get Yvon to call this contest. Anyone less and I'm not giving an inch. I know I was TOLD mine was laminated Hickory when I bought it - and that's what I'm sticking to. lol

BTW, my recollection of the history matches Bradely's write up to a tee. But my Alzheimers does kick in occasionally. Its not impossible I'm wrong.
RDB

Social climber
way out there
Jun 13, 2010 - 08:30pm PT
Funny stuff. If it helps Rexilon looks a lot like what you would think laminated hickory should look like. Heck if I ever saw a catalog or flyer from Chouinard saying they sold "laminated hickory" or any laminate beyond Rexilon I might believe if was laminated hickory :)

My partner was told his axe pictured in Fritz's photo was Rexilon. He was very proud of his heavy POS and the fact it was a Rexilon axe :)

Fitz's photo was taken in May of 1976 and he bought the axe in the fall/winter of '75.

Here is what we do know of RK's axe:

Very nice axe in excellent condition worth $300+ to $500 in today's collector market
We know it is a dbl tooth axe
We know it is a chouinard-frost axe
We know the handle is not laminated bamboo
We knwo the handle is not straight Hickory
We know the handle is laminated

(more)
It should have the later three rivet head
Early Chouinard-Frost axes had a 2 rivets and a single set of teeth
we don't know what the wood laminate is (but most agree it is Rexilon)

DR (if that is appropriate) or Coonyard can make the definate judgement call on the handle material :)

Come on, someone here knows Chouinard's email..send him the pictures and ask!





Fritz

Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
Jun 13, 2010 - 10:44pm PT
Rockermike:

Re:
BTW, my recollection of the history matches Bradely's write up to a tee. But my Alzheimers does kick in occasionally. Its not impossible I'm wrong.

Thank you for leaving the window of doubt on your memories.

Early on in this thread : I posted photos out of a Chouinard 1975-76 catalog with a page that had copy on Rexilon Piolets.

RDB has "first-person stories about his climbing buddy buying and using a Rexilon axe in the mid-1970's. That is backed up with his photos of a Chouinard axe collection that “makes me salivate.” (I only own 60, 70, & 80 Cm. bamboo piolets).



So-----rockermike--------would you post up photos of your hickory piolet for us to critique?

Otherwise: I must go to evaluating your input, based on: those “who really want to believe” criteria.







Did you vote for G.W. Bush both times? Do you own "beachfront" property in Florida,------or do you believe there is a "large ark on the moon?"

If so-------I can no longer discuss this topic with you.

Well-----maybe, if I had a tough day, and drink some wine.
Tobia

Social climber
GA
Jun 13, 2010 - 11:02pm PT
The axe i posted had no markings i could find... The Mastadon would know, it belonged to him.

I have a copy of that Chouinard Catalog with the mountains on the back cover.
RDB

Social climber
way out there
Jun 14, 2010 - 01:41am PT
Fitz, fwiw I have given away or sold most of my Chouinard axe collection in the last year. Felt like I was getting a little greedy :) One went to BD as they didn't have one in the hardware collection and it seem required to me.

I have kept my original bamboo and a second, early, 2 rivet duplicate that is in like new, and unused condition. I just never liked the thicker bladed dbl tooth tools. Then or now. Totally different feel and look for me from the earliest Piolets. That and the fact that most everyone I have seen has a slightly bent pick from the hand forging. Looking at the pick straight on almost all bend slightly to the right. The thicker bladed dbl tooth picks even more so.

new
Credit: RDB
old
Credit: RDB

Fun that so many of us used these tools as our first technical tool. I climbed my first water ice with one. And truely loved climbing water ice with a Zero axe later on. I used a Zero and a Chacal for many pure water ice routes till the spring of '82. Thing I find the most amazing is the Piolet was only available for a very short amount of time, between late 1969 and fall of 1978.

I cracked the shaft on my origial piolet on a Canadian waterfall back in winter of '76/'77 and then relagated it to guiding for years until I just couldn't justify it any more by late '80s.

Crack is the small black line bottom right of the tang.
Credit: RDB

By then generally only older guides would know what it was. And clients were questioning my choice of equipment, "climbing with a "wooden" axe" ;-) Rewelded the tip several times early on and did a terrible job last year bringing it back to "new". Just haven't gotten around to redoing it yet. Way more work than I remember.

Piolet on a late fall ascent of Ptarmigan ridge in '75.


In better days, summit of Liberty Cap on a guided traverse N/S in '78.


Rainier in obviously '80s fashion style! And one of the last guided trips I used my original piolet on. I had taped the shaft top to bottom to protect the bamboo by the point. I realised doing so negated much of the reason I wanted to use it



A toast to all the good days out we spent with our piolets!
RDB

Social climber
way out there
Jun 14, 2010 - 02:11am PT
Re: the Bradley web info?

It first pays to realise this info is used to promote a piece of jewelery.
Hard to take it seriously in that context as "history".

The Alpinist's Piolet Cuff $210.00

http://www.bradleyalpinist.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=465&zenid=m7t4j7uovhe0r5hd4rel5daf87

I think much of the important info on the Chouinard Piolet from the Bradley web site is pure fiction. Let me detail why. I would be pleased if anyone can dispute my comments and would offer first hand evidence of their own details. I am only looking to document the truth, nothing more.

My comments are highlighted.


from: http://www.bradleyalpinist.com/cart/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=28

RE: Chouinard-Frost Piolet
"Somewhere long about 1969, Yvon Chouinard and Tom Frost, of Chouinard Equipment in Ventura, California, commissioned the Codega brothers to build an axe to their specifications. This axe, called the Chouinard-Frost Piolet, featured a hand forged, ground and polished chrome-nickle steel head and a hickory shaft, and has since been a mountaineering equipment classic in the both the US and in the Alps. By printing time of Chouinard Equipment's first catalog in 1972, the Chouinard Piolet shown on page 34 had a new laminated bamboo shaft design, dubbed to be lighter weight and just as strong as the hickory shafted orginal.

Over the next 7 years, the Chouinard Piolet went through a few other design changes, including a revised marking on the head, omitting "Frost" from "Chouinard-Frost". This change was first seen in the 1978 catalog, even though Tom Frost had left the company years earlier, in 1975."

Chouinard catalogs were long known to retailers for being late to the retail market with many items discontinued or unavailable by the time the catalog made it to print and to the dealers. By 1978 the wooden handle Chouinard axes of any type were no longer available in Europe or by then easily available in the USA. And by the fall of '78 even Snell's in Chamonix had the Camp bamboo Chouinard clones on sale, what few they did have. Mind you these were "newest" three rivet dbl tooth heads but with no Chouinard marking. In 1978 The last of the US imported axes had a 3 rivet head and only Chouinard stamped on them.

The 1978 Great Pacific Iron Works catalog (formerly Chouinard and their 3rd catalog) is a interesting mix of the newest carbon fiber Piolet with a hand forged head and "fake" carbon fiber Zeros with bamboo shafts painted to resemble carbon fiber. Clearly a transition time for Chouinard piolets. The Carbon fiber axes were available by the winter of '79. I bought both a carbon fiber piolet and a Zero axe that winter. Found the early carbon fiber lacking on hard Canadian ice and went back to a bamboo Zero axe, now, in '79, extremely hard to find.


"Other designs of the Piolet included a version with two sections of teeth or notches(double-toothed) on the drooped and curved pick. In other modifications, the shaft material changed again, first to a laminated hickory, then laminated ash for a short time, and eventually a synthetic called Rexilon in 1979, after the UIAA began to raise concerns with the integrity of "wooden" axe shafts. All wooden shafted variations of the Chouinard's Piolet were made by C.A.M.P., but the axe model was phased out of production after 1979."

I have never seen laminated hickory or laminated ash Chouinard Piolets in Europe or the NA market. Even more importantly I have no record of either in any Chouinard or GPIW printed material. (3 catalogs and one major update flyer) I was told by sales people at Snell's in the fall of '78 that CAMP would no longer produce either the Chouinard piolets in any wooden form or the CAMP clones. The reasoning behind that was the new UIAA guidelines for shaft strength. Imagine my surprise with two of us showing up for the late alpine ice season thinking we'd buy new tools at Snell's! Plan "B" wasn't all that attactive.

My partner bought a Rexilon marked shaft Piolet in either Spokane or Seattle the 1st half of the winter of '75/'76. And I have owned a number of both hickory and bamboo piolets.


Codegas offered virtually the same ice axe (same head, with bamboo or hickory shafts)in Europe, sans the Chouinard marking (although markings still included "Interalp", "CAMP" and "Made in Premana" which are all also found on the "Chouinard-Frost: and "Chouinard" stamped versions).

True, but as mentioned above it ended fall of '78

"In the early 80's, the REI Coop contracted with with C.A.M.P., having this same axe design orginated by Chouinard, stamped with the REI logo. These axes were offered in REI's original Seattle store through the mid 1980's."

Again, close but not accurate. The CAMP McKinley was offered in the '80 catalog and maybe even earlier but while a CAMP axe it was not a clone of the original Chouinard Piolet design.

I worked at several retail climbing shops from '73 to '85, which is where some of my comments come from.


Slightly off topic but worth repeating after finding the info again.
Someone mentioned the first Chacal? (widely acknowledged as the first reverse curved blade)

THE very first Chacel was Gordon Smith's and the design didn't become commercially available until '79. Simond gave samples to all the climbers attending the International Resemblance in Chamonix in '79.

From the "Ice Primer" thread:

"In 1978 I got hold of THE prototype Chacal from Luger Simond - He was going to make a straight drooped pick but I held the shaft of the axe while he cut holes in an ordinary curved pick blank reversed. Then he cut teeth and changed the angle of the end of the pick to make a point to penetrate the ice and lo, the first reversed banana pick. Worked brilliantly!!
Gordon Smith"
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jun 14, 2010 - 02:20am PT
I have the Northwall hammer version of that piolet. I'll take a photo in the morning (think it's [big]bambu')

Used to have an
MSR T-bird as well (my first axe)until thieves stole it...
Doug Robinson

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Jun 14, 2010 - 10:40am PT
My memory can make swiss cheese look comparatively like solid granite, but as I recall:

Rexilon = laminated hickory.



And I gotta say it: What is that piece-of-sh*t MSR axe doing in this thread? Any time they bumped into anything they would vibrate like a tuning fork. And some were bright orange? -- give me a break!

Plus they look and feel sort of like an industrial accident compared to the graceful lines of the Piolet.

I don't know if Penberthy was an aerospace guy -- it's tempting to think of all Seattle engineers as ex-Boeing -- but his error in thinking that led to "positive hooking angle" reminds me of the classic mistake aeronautical engineers made regarding the sound barrier. See, if they calculated flying a steady speed right at the speed of sound, the aircraft would develop harmonic vibrations and tear itself apart. Only when they re-imagined the problem as flying through the sound barrier could that difficulty evaporate.

The Piolet's wooden shafts -- any of the batch -- gave important dampening to vibration. YC couldn't begin to consider a bare aluminum tube for a shaft, and even though concerned about strength he didn't go away from wood until the blue carbon shafts, which were a lot more vibration-damp, and almost approached wood in that regard.

Somewhere -- probably Climbing Ice -- YC and I made short work of debunking the theory of hooking angle. See, if the snow-ice surface is so bulletproof that it could matter, it's way too dense to arrest on anyway. When you're arresting, the tip of the pick is buried in the snow, so its angle becomes irrelevant...

The chisel tip on the Piolet is anyway designed for the far more important positive task of penetration and holding on water ice, not for the catch-up work of arresting a fall.

End of rant.
RDB

Social climber
way out there
Jun 14, 2010 - 12:00pm PT
And a good rant it is..you ought to write more often DR :)

But...and I don't know sh#t beyond what I find on the net, there are 3 referneces that Rexilon is a Beech wood laminate in 16, 18 and 20 form. I suspect that is the number of wood layers ina specific measurement, .10" or one mm maybe.

Flywheel Rotor Safe-Life Technology: Literature Search Summary By J. B. Chang, D. A. Christopher, J. K. H. Ratner

http://www.varioustopics.com/climbing/656481-rexilon.html

Minor trivia of interest to almost nobody:

"The rexilon shaft on Chouinard ice axes was made of a laminate of
18-layers of beech ("faggio" in Italian). It was originally used for
pole-vaulting poles in the days before fiberglass composites. CAMP used
this before bamboo but both were available for a while.

BTW the CAMP/Cassin factory in Premana is very cool. Not many companies
do their own heat treating (usually sub-contracted) as well as most
other steps of production. A true family business in a beautiful
location."

I also can't find a reference any where in the pole vaulting histories to actual use of Rexilon wood laminated vaulting pole past the uncredited "climbing" comment. Although Bamboo is mentioned often and I would assume that was a laminate.
Doug Robinson

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Jun 14, 2010 - 12:09pm PT
Thanks, Dane.

And, I so appreciate your joy in ferreting out the accurate history of the tools and techniques for carving up so brittle and exacting a medium. Not to mention your vast and cutting-edge career of carrying that onward and upward.

Joyful (even to sleeping with your tools?) but never lapsing into OCD.

All while carrying an Ultima Thule, no less.
BJ

climber
Jun 14, 2010 - 12:20pm PT



And I gotta say it: What is that piece-of-sh*t MSR axe doing in this thread? Any time they bumped into anything they would vibrate like a tuning fork. And some were bright orange? -- give me a break!

Agreed

Plus they look and feel sort of like an industrial accident compared to the graceful lines of the Piolet.

Double agree

I don't know if Penberthy was an aerospace guy -- it's tempting to think of all Seattle engineers as ex-Boeing


Larry was a ME, who as a young man worked at the Holden Mine site. His main enterprise was a type of electrical resistance melting, and the company was Penberthy ElectroMelt. His love was being a mad outdoor scientist, and he invented good, bad and weird products. The MSR liquid fuel stoves are still Larry products.

The ice axes were a bombproof products built for glacier travel and general climbing misuse. They were never good for ice climbing and technical use.

They are among the most butt ugly ice axes ever built, although the REI Sumner is even uglier!
Messages 41 - 60 of total 122 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Trip Report and Articles
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews