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lemonviolence
Trad climber
Monrovia, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 28, 2010 - 08:22pm PT
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Via Bruno Schull on MP
There is an ongoing thread about this on rockclimbing.com, entitled "What a mess," but I have not seen anything here, so I thought I would start a new discussion.
Essentially, an Austrian team, including David Lama, traveled to Patagonia to attempt to free a classic line, and in the process placed 60 new bolts where ample opportunities for natural protection, violating national park regulations, local standards and historical precedent, and international ethical guidelines.
Rolando Garibotti wrote a very good piece about it here (in Spanish):
http://www.desnivel.com/object.php?o=20025
I hope this piece gets translated and disseminated.
The story deserves to be told.
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lemonviolence
Trad climber
Monrovia, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 28, 2010 - 08:24pm PT
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Translation from Spanish via Google....
From - http://www.desnivel.com/object.php?o=20025
"Somewhat unrelated to this thread, but the very route that Jim and Steve finished back in 79 just recently got a facelift, the bad kind. In spite of spending close to three months in Chalten, the much publicized free attempt on the Compressor route by David Lama had no positive results (two attempts to the bolt traverse). However it did have some negative results. Lama's film team fixed 700 meters of rope from the glacier to the bolt traverse. The ropes were left for months until three Argentine guides recovered them, although they had to abandon a haul bag full of them above the bergschrund. The worst of it all was that to place those 700 meters of rope the film team placed more than 60 bolts. This in an section of the climb where not even Maestri had placed a single bolt back in 71, and where natural protection abounds. Somehow the 450 bolts that are already on the route were not sufficient for Lama's film team crew.
In 1985 Fulvio Mariani made one of the best climbing movies of all time when he filmed “Cumbre”, documenting Marco Pedrini’s solo ascent of Cerro Torre. They did so fixing 3 ropes, and nothing more, without placing a single piece of fixed pro. Obviously, as Lama and his entourage prove, there has been a big regression since then.
One has to wonder what the Swiss or the French would say if the same was done in one of their most iconic peaks in the Alps by a team of foreigners.
cheers
rolo "
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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May 28, 2010 - 08:24pm PT
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Chop the line!
Honestly I don't care, really, but it seems wrong if there was pro available.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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May 28, 2010 - 08:27pm PT
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This is a horrendous act of vandalism. What would be an appropriate punishment for this crime against us all?
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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May 28, 2010 - 08:46pm PT
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Chop Chop.
From Redbull.com:
"Due to different statements and allegations published on diverse platforms regarding my project on Cerro Torre I would like to clarify several facts. I want to make sure that these discussions take place on the actual facts and on the way they occurred. I came to Patagonia together with my partner to attempt a freeclimbing ascent of the compressor route on Cerro Torre. A filmteam was with us to document the attempt. Every step made in Parque Nacional Los Glaciares and the Cero Torre by either my partner, myself or the accompanying production crew was executed in accordance with the rules and regulations as set out by the local mountain guides and the park administration; all necessary permits have been requested and granted. Due to bad weather and bad conditions we were forced to return home even earlier than planned. The danger of avalanches made it impossible for us to remove the fixed ropes and gear we had left on Col de la Patiencia before our departure. Therefore we engaged some pro guides to remove it for us, as soon as conditions would allow it. Constant communication with the local authorities during the project and the cleaning effort ensured that all standards were met and. if possible . surpassed. The current status is that the project is on hold until next year. The entire shoulder and wall have been cleaned, except for bolts used for the production which will definitely be removed after next years attempt. Personally, I don’t believe that we did anything wrong. In fact it was us to remove loads of old, ruined ropes and slings from the mountain which were left behind by others…I know a lot has been discussed about my project and a lot of false information has been spread. Therefore I kindly ask you to judge my project at its end. I’m looking forward to returning next season, Patagonia has impressed me more than anything that I have seen before. Regards, David"
The posts on Red Bull.com are classic.
"RED BULL, CLEAN UP THE MESS LEFT BY DAVID LAMA IN PATAGONIA!"
"little children David and the motherf*#kers of red bul, clean the cerro torre now!! and not back again for our countrie, you are not welcome anymore. F*#k you!!. Jonathan Nahuel Caceres Republica Argentina "
"What David Lama and film crew on the majestic Cerro Torre is an outrage. Their vandalism of a classic route should not go unnoticed. Shame."
"Please explain the mess you and your crew are reputed to have left on Cerro Torre. Is it true? Reports from Patagonia say you and your team (film crew with guides, etc) fixed 700m of rope, to the bolt traverse, and abandoned them. Subsequent people had to clean the mess. Is this true? And also that you added 60 bolts to the already most overbolted route in the world (the Compressor Route has some 400-450 bolts on it already). As you said yourself, above: entire highway of bolts and pitons in the mountain’s south-east face, which has nothing to do with today’s climbing ethics. Adding more bolts, and abandoning such a significant amount of garbage, would obviously have nothing to do with today" -Kelly Cordes
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Cpt0bvi0u5
Trad climber
Merced CA
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May 28, 2010 - 09:01pm PT
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If there was ample natural pro then CHOP THE LINE.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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May 28, 2010 - 09:26pm PT
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It sounds lik the bolts are there for the film crew - not the climb. So chopping sends no message - the film crew could give a f*#k.
F*#king as#@&%es.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 28, 2010 - 09:30pm PT
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A result of the Law of Unintended Consequences.
Sponsered climbers tread on a slippery slope.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 28, 2010 - 09:33pm PT
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That's kind of David to insure the removal of a raft of bolts sunk for something that had nothing to do with the climbing. God forbid a 'project' be done for its own sake and under its own financial power. David clearly doesn't see anything wrong with slathering and removing bolts on a classic tower.
Seems to me that 60 vanity bolts on the Compressor would fall under the general rubric of WWDD*...
(* - what would Donini do?)
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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May 28, 2010 - 09:48pm PT
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I agree that he seems to gloss over placing all those bolts for the sake of a film crew.
What if they did the same thing on El Capitan? Even if they could talk the NPS into it (which is totally unlikely), the climbing community would still be outraged. You don't go to a pristine wall and start bolting the whole thing for the sake of film project! Sorry, my friend,but these places are not movie sets! Get a film crew with some balls, or leave the place alone.
To quote Ricky Ricardo on "I LOVE LUCY" .........."Honey, you've got some splainin to do."
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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May 28, 2010 - 10:01pm PT
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HO...LY... COW...
What the hell were they thinking? The El Cap comparison is right on. It would have never happened in Yosemite. So because it's in another country it's OK to break the law and vandalize a natural treasure for convenience to make a cool video? It's all cool cause they're gonna remove them at some undetermined latter date? NOT.
Red Bull better batten the hatches cause a sh#t-storm is coming their way. I wonder if David's PR person wrote that idiotic press release, or if he is really naive enough to believe that load of crap.
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
Berkeley, CA
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May 29, 2010 - 01:40am PT
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If these bolts were not drilled with a Compressor, this is a MOCKERY of the orignal style! Bwaaahhhaaaa!!!
I checked the date on this one to be sure it wasn't posted on April 1st.
Seriously? This can't be true.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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May 29, 2010 - 01:46am PT
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Those crazy sport climbers!
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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May 29, 2010 - 02:16am PT
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Doesn't the Compressor Route already have that sort of precedent? I heard that Maestri used his engine-powered compressed air drill on blank walls, so he could stay out of the wind around a corner, instead of using good cracks. After being defiled in that fashion, the route might seem, to some, to be open to all manner of abuse.
And, when someone can drill new bolts up our own Dihedral Wall, in order to claim a FFA, and get away with it, there is no stopping the spread of that sort of disease.
Apparently, a socio-psychotic craving for one's name in a guidebook leads some people to do all manner of strange things.
In the future, everyone will be notorious for fifteen minutes
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
climber
from the Leastside
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May 29, 2010 - 03:35am PT
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What is it rated ?
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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May 29, 2010 - 08:39am PT
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yet another corporate expedition going awry. the genie that was let out of the bottle in the 1980's with the "bolt wars" has made it to the big mountains and more..
that genie will never go back to the bottle.
i say
chop it..
lame as euro attempt. seems appropriate, since they have bolted all the alpine and trad lines in eurolandia, they need to do the same where ever they go..
ks
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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May 29, 2010 - 09:07am PT
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Well Port, it was good of you to post up but don't expect any greater acceptance here in TacoLand. What you and your team did was outrageously selfish! When someone with the remarkable credibility of Rolando speaks up in protest of this travesty then you should realize the magnitude of your folly. Red Bull needs to experience a negative press campaign much more intense than Black Diamond faced from the Delicate Arch Farce. This me, me, me Machievellian approach to self aggrandizement and corporate ad profits has no place in the wilds. Shame on you and Red Bull.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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May 29, 2010 - 09:12am PT
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Here is Rolando's article translated by Babelfish; it is a little crude but does the job I guess. I tweaked it up some as the translation is purely automatic.
60 parabolts towards the Compressor Route of Cerro Torre
At the request of some readers, Rolando Garibotti extends and details to the column appeared in the last number of Unevenness. In her it demands explanations by parabolts placed, that remain, and the cord fixes installed during months for a project of shooting and liberation.
By digital Writing digital@desnivel.es Updated 21.05.201023:40
The route of the Compressor crosses the south-east spur, in center of the image. Photo: ®Rolando Garibotti.
To start up a project of clean scaling whose shooting demands great means and alteration of the route supposes, as the Argentinean Rolando Garibotti explains, a very serious ethical dilemma. This one is its valuation:
The great news in Patagonia this past season was not related to an ascent, but to the announcement of a project. Little it was materialized of as much publicity and that little he was negative. Although David Lama did not manage to at least release to a new meter of the route of the Compressor in the south-east spur of the Hill Tower, its equipment of shooting made up of several cameras and Austrian guides of mountain engaged by Red Bull placed about 700 meters of fixed cords throughout the route and near 60 parabolts.
The cords were retired several months later by Argentine guides, who could not with all and had to leave a full bed roll of them in rimaya. A smaller detail in comparison with parabolts.
Parabolts were placed in first half of the route--- between rimaya and the passage--- where not even Maestri in 1970 had perforated the rock in spite of being loaded up with his heavy compressor. In that section of the route there is an infinity of options to place removable protection, since the fissures abound everywhere. In the hundreds of repetitions that the route has had nobody has had to add nothing in that section. Without a doubt he is peculiar that is necessity to add parabolts to a route that counts already with more than 450 nails of pressure.
In relation to the actions of this equipment of Red Bull an ethical dilemma appears on the re-equipment of classic or historical routes.
I would like to know what would happen if this summer I visited Austria and added dozens of parabolts in "Locker vom Hocker" of Gullich and Albert or in some route of the famous Mathias Rebisch, or of Albert Precht, et cetera. And since the own Reinhold Messner helped to promote this attempt of David Lama (to see here) perhaps would be appropriate that added dozens of parabolts to the Spur of Means (Mittelpfeiler) in the Sasso della Croce (Heiligkreuzkopfel), in its historical one via. He is peculiar that is he, author in years 70 of the well-known article "The Murder of the Impossible"; against the indiscriminate use of bolts, that help to promote the upsetting of Red Bull and Lama.
To add parabolts to an existing route not only is in opposition to one of the good well-known ethical norms not written of the mountain climbing and the scaling, but also on Best Practice in Mountain Sports is written in the famous Tyrol Declaration result of a meeting of mountain climbers, climbers, clubs and bunds in Innsbruck in 2002. In article 8, point 1, is read: "This means that the climbers would not have to increase the number of fixed insurances in a preexisting route";. This declaration recently has been updated with the denominated Declaration of Ethics in the Mountain that the Union the International of Associations of Alpinismo (UIAA) the past made 11 public of December on the occasion of the Day the International of the Mountain. In his article 1 (individual responsibility) one takes shelter: "… To place fixed anchorages in new or old routes cannot automatically be assumed like acceptable". In article 4 (in foreign countries): "… We must respect the ethics and local style of scaling and not drill nor place fixed anchorages in places where there is a traditional ethics in his against or where ” is not an established ethics. In article 8 (style): "… We always must deal with not leaving any sign in a wall and the mountain.
"
In relation to the fixed cords it is worth the trouble to reflect envelope what reaction would have if we throughout left to fixed cords a summer in "Pesce" of the Marmolada, or in "Philipp Flamm" of the Civetta, or in "American Direct " on the west face of the Dru, or any other concurred classic route of the Alps. To anybody who likes to climb under fixed ropes, less even in a route that from the Eighties becomes in alpine style.
In 1985 Swiss Fulvio Mariani filmed in the Cerro Torre one of the best mountain films never done, "Summit";, a documentary of the solitary ascent of Pedrini Frame. In that occasion not only they did not place any parabolt, but they used only three fixed cords. Years later, in 1990, the German Werner Herzog I also film "Schrei aus Stein"; (Scream of Stone) in the Cerro Torre, and even that time there was no necessity to add parabolts to the route of Maestri. Since then, as it proves the behavior of Licks and the people of Red Bull, it seems to have happened an important regression.
Lama and Red Bull would have to explain how they justify as much impact to document an attempt of ascent that It licks same promoted saying that it would be in alpine style, clean, light, with “ to fair play ”, et cetera.
By Rolando Garibotti
Argentine mountain climber, mountain guide in the USA, is habitual and a great student of the history of the scaling in Patagonia besides a recognized analyst with numerous publications like, for example, "Cerro Torre", its history and its routes" in Desnivel # 210. Among others activities, in 2005, along with Ermanno Salvaterra and Alessandro Beltrami drew up "the coffer of winds" in Cerro Torre, whereas in 2008 the traverse of the Tower along with Colin Haley realised the first ascent. In Desnivel # 287 (May 2010) it published a chronicle of most important happened in Patagonia the past season.
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Slice
Boulder climber
Valley
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May 29, 2010 - 09:44am PT
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Sure would like to read DR's opinion on this. Be an interesting read to say the least.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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May 29, 2010 - 09:52am PT
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I can still remember when I was an invincible 19 year old to whom the rules did not apply.
Hopefully he will mature into his talents.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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May 29, 2010 - 01:14pm PT
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Hey Philo,
I copied and pasted the David Lama post from Red Bull.com. I have nothing to do with this travesty at all, and I think it should be chopped.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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May 29, 2010 - 02:57pm PT
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Whew! Thanx for letting me know that Port. Consider the VooDoo doll project cancelled.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 29, 2010 - 03:13pm PT
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So let me get this straight, some team goes to Patagonia making big noises, they add 60 bolts to a WAY overbolted route mostly for camera positions without a compressor, they fix light years of rope, they eventually see that all the rope and a bunch of garbage that wasn't theirs is removed, and they pledge to return to remove the remaining bolts?
And that makes you all get your panties in a twist???
Well!
By comparison I can only imagine how you all must be furiously writing letters to your elected officials to see that something is done to stop the Gulf oil spill and see that it never happens again!
Philo must be making lots of BP voodoo dolls.
After all, if we were to cut back on fossil fuel consumption then I guess maybe WE might not get to fly to Patagonia and show how environmentally correct we are, huh?
Just saying,..
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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May 29, 2010 - 03:33pm PT
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Lots and lots of dolls.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 29, 2010 - 03:43pm PT
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Hope you're not using petroleum products to do the voodoo that you do so well.
;)
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enjoimx
Trad climber
SLO Cal
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May 29, 2010 - 04:11pm PT
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Who's going to "Chop the line" ? Not an easy proposition.
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Iron Mtn.
Trad climber
Corona, Ca.
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May 29, 2010 - 06:42pm PT
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I've about had enough of all this disrepect for Cerro Torre. I think they should ban climbing it for a couple of years (as with Everest) to teach future @ssh*les a lesson.
*just read that this Lama character is from Tyrol, perhaps Messner could go kick his ass on behalf of the rest of us.....
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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May 29, 2010 - 07:40pm PT
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I would like to know what would happen if this summer I visited Austria and added dozens of parabolts in "Locker vom Hocker" of Gullich and Albert or in some route of the famous Mathias Rebisch, or of Albert Precht, et cetera. And since the own Reinhold Messner helped to promote this attempt of David Lama (to see here) perhaps would be appropriate that added dozens of parabolts to the Spur of Means (Mittelpfeiler) in the Sasso della Croce (Heiligkreuzkopfel), in its historical one via. He is peculiar that is he, author in years 70 of the well-known article "The Murder of the Impossible"; against the indiscriminate use of bolts, that help to promote the upsetting of Red Bull and Lama.
Its a crappy translation but it sounds like Messner had some kind of funding/promotion role in this whole thing.
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Iron Mtn.
Trad climber
Corona, Ca.
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May 31, 2010 - 12:58am PT
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I have a real hard time believing Messner would okay 60 bolts on Cerro Torre, especially since he claims to have never placed a bolt ever and wrote Murder of the Impossible about the Compressor Route....
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 31, 2010 - 03:11am PT
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450 original bolts and another 60 new ones pushes the total to over 500. That, ladies and gentlemen, is way too many for any rock climb.
JL
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 31, 2010 - 10:39am PT
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I thought it was supposed to be a via ferrata.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 31, 2010 - 10:47am PT
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Lama has a history of grandstanding. There is NO excuse for adding bolts to the World's most difficult via ferrata, deleting some is another matter. When we did the first ascent of neighboring Torre Egger in 1976 we put in a total of 4 hand drilled bolts. Placing new bolts in the course of trying to "increase" difficulty is absurd. The World's most beautiful mountain deserves more respect, especially from young "supposed" hot shots.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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May 31, 2010 - 11:40am PT
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Yeah Lama popped the top on a steaming can of Red Bull-sh#t.
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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again another lame ass excuse to get money and pr for a rock climb..
bolts bolts bolts, this is the bad side of non climbing corporate sponsorship of expeditions..
David should change his name to David LAME...
ks
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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and another point..
for the record:
When Coz and I gave the muir wall a GROUND UP, onsight, no rap bolting attempt, we wanted to preserve the AID climb, we added no bolts to the line and only added bolts to the variations and all belays..
we wanted other AID climbers to still get the adventure of the route and not to take anything away from the FA...
ks
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Kid, You and Coz got class.
David LAME. Ha ha ha ha.
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jack herer
climber
Veneta, Oregon
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Who the f*#k is David Llama?
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Edge
Trad climber
New Durham, NH
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Who the f*#k is David Llama?
Given his love of bolts, I would say that he is "Someone who carries his courage in his alpaca."
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bwancy1
Trad climber
Here
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This is interesting to see so many up in arms about a route that 99% of the commenters here have never laid eyes on.
This retrobolting crap goes on every day at local crags (even - gasp- yosemite). I have watched many of you accepting and enabling this mentality with comments like "just leave the bolts..you'll only damage the rock", etc. Tacitly approving the addition of convenience belays, rap stations, added bolts, excessive cleaning, pruning, etc.
Why is this behavior ok in your own lives, but is so abhorrent on Compressor? Are your own modest routes and values less important?
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Thanks Erik, that was a great read. Very informative.
This retrobolting crap goes on every day at local crags (even - gasp- yosemite). I have watched many of you accepting and enabling this mentality over with comments like "just leave the bolts..you'll only damage the rock", etc. Tacitly approving the addition of convenience belays, rap stations, added bolts, excessive cleaning, pruning, etc.
My understanding is that these bolts were added for filming purposes, which makes the situation even worse in my mind. What kind of standard does this leave? Are you saying its ok for a film crew to place and remove 60 bolts every time they go out and film a big wall?
From Alpinist.
In 1971, a year after Maestri's ascent, videographer Leo Dickinson climbed and filmed on the Compressor Route. Dickinson left only a few pieces of clean protection at his highpoint (the headwall ice towers) and no additional fixed gear. While he and the rest of the team did not reach the summit, his reaction to the bolts on the Compressor Route compelled him to travel to Italy to interview Maestri. The result was a film entitled Cerro Torre—The Rape of a Mountain. In a recent email to Alpinist, he wrote: "In my view all bolts should be stripped from Cerro Torre and it declared a bolt free zone by the National Park. The rock of Cerro Torre and Fitzroy is eminently suitable for gear [that] can be removed.
So if Leo Dickinson can film on Cerro Torre in 1971 without placing bolts, why cant REDBULL?
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bwancy1
Trad climber
Here
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My understanding is that these bolts were added for filming purposes, which makes the situation even worse in my mind. What kind of standard does this leave? Are you saying its ok for a film crew to place and remove 60 bolts every time they go out and film a big wall?
No!
I am saying that it is not ok for a film crew to do it, and it is not ok for anyone else to do it either. A lot of folks here seem to be enraged about defiling Compressor, but have no problem with similar behavior on less famous routes...routes that they may actually have some experience with.
And just to make a comment on us climber's sense of entitlement: You state that the situation is "even worse" since it is associated with a film crew's actions. Why are photography enthusiast's impacts unacceptable, while climbers have the right to bolt anything we wish?
Ultimately I think maybe we are saying the same thing----enough with adding bolts to existing routes!
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tomtom
Social climber
Seattle, Wa
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How many bolts do folks like Caldwell or the Huber brothers add to routes they are trying to free?
Or leave roped draped for long periods of time?
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brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
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F*#k Redbull!!!
You wont see me drinking that sh#t, especially after this travesty of filming shenanigans that went down.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Another great example of people outraged because they don't understand the real motivation behind minimizing bolts.
People who devote their lives to climbing, write about it, make a living from it, should understand why adding bolts is wrong. But most don't. They just jump on the bolts are evil bandwagon without really understanding the issue.
I'm going to rap off the anchor of one of the most important rock climbs in the world. Then I'll drill 10 bolts in the middle of no where that no one will ever see first hand, maybe glue a hood ornament on while I'm at it. I'll take a picture and post it here. Then people can get all righteous and outraged, but since no one else will never know where they are, they will remain there forever, like a splinter in some people's minds. A travesty! LOL!!
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Why are photography enthusiast's impacts unacceptable, while climbers have the right to bolt anything we wish?
First, climbers DONT have a right to do anything we wish, in my opinion.
Second, because those photos are being used for promotional purposes in order to sell more energy drinks. You might have a point if it were Ansel Adams up there....but its Red Bull. These photos are being used for marketing their beverage. lame.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Bwancy1, apparently you don't grasp the essential significance of Cerro Torre in the minds of many including those who will never go.
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bwancy1
Trad climber
Here
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First, climbers DONT have a right to do anything we wish, in my opinion.
Yes, that was my point.
Bwancy1, apparently you don't grasp the essential significance of Cerro Torre in the minds of many including those who will never go.
I get it. I just wish people would share that same passion and respect with the climbs in their (and my) lives. Act locally, you know?
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Well, weren't the original bolts put in with a gas powered compressor?
Sounds like a good change of style at least : /
and props to bridwell, donini, garibrotti et al for giving that mountain a great history and giving us wanks a slew of very inspiring lines on those peaks.
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sweetcheeks
climber
Pacific Palisades, CA
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More abuse heaped on a line that should have yielded such a work of art.
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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bwancy,
not all of us tacosheads are for retro bolting..
as one who has done hundreds of f.a's, ground up, trad, rap bolted etc i do not condone adding bolts to existing lines. it does not matter that 99%mof us have never been to cerro torre, simple fact is that was a lame ass move on the team and film crews part.
as one who was ticketed for using a power drill in the wilderness of el cap, i understand the implications of actions gone bad..
as one who has had a few of my "trad" routes retro bolted without my permission (cookie monster) i am not happy when someone else brings a climb DOWN to their level instead of rising up to the challenge.
seems like a film team on a big wall with lots of cracks could find a better way to secure their shot.
i live at the new river gorge where during the sport bolting heyday, many a trad line were retro bolted for "convenience" and now a lot of climbers want those trad lines back. i don't want to see massive chopping rear it's head, but would prefer that people think before they drill a line climbed on gear..
kurt
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Lambert's link to Rolo's Alpinist article is a must read for any alpinist or aspiring alpinist.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Your points are well taken Chief. I have to say, though, that there is a qualitative difference between TE and "crags" elsewhere. Torre Egger is the most beautiful mountain in the world- that said, all climbing areas deserve respect when it comes to desecration for commercial reasons.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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I cringe too with more beautiful or more difficult designations and all climbing areas, regardless of significance, deserve respect. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Chief, go to Patagonia and behold Cerro Torre, you'll see what I mean.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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From the Alpinist article:
In an email to Alpinist, Lama said that bad weather and "danger of avalanche" kept the team from removing the gear before departing. Lama plans to return next Austral summer to finish freeing the southeast ridge; the film team then plans to remove the bolts they placed.
They hadn't considered the probability or even the certainty that they'd be halted by bad weather and threat of avalanche?
What made them believe they'd possibly be able to clean the route given the brevity of Patagonia weather windows?
What makes them think it will be a picnic to remove the bolts this year?
Is this more "BP thinking"? With technology we can bypass any eventuality?
I've never been to Patagonia, may never get there. I can still recognize a desecration of the rock when I hear of it.
For commercial purposes.
RedBull and Lama should pay a team of experienced Patagonia climbers and guides to clean the mess, repair the rock as much as possible. They should not be allowed to go back to climb or film.
Fred Glover
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coondogger
Trad climber
NH
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Sounds like David is running on youth, incredible ability, and significant financial backing. Bark all you want but it looks like the preaching that falls on David's ears that won't understand deplorable behavior like this. Unfortunately it seems that his sponsors and David lack the concern for consequence and standard of care. It's wrong on many levels but we are preaching to the wrong people.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Not all crags are the same, sad but true. The way areas should be developed is often a product of where they are; maybe climbs should only be done if they can be put up ground up, onsight. If this is your sentiment, then yes, all crags should be treated the same. But quarries and mungy urban cliffs are far more deserving of convenience anchors than Tuolumne meadows.
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bmacd
climber
Relic Hominid
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chopping 60 of Llamas bolts on his routes at his home turf should settle the score
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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But quarries and mungy urban cliffs are far more deserving of convenience anchors than Tuolumne meadows.
Aye, there's the rub. I don't like to be absolutist (bolts only ground up yada yada yada) BUT why is a junkpile less deserving of protection than Tuolumne?
I'm inclined to believe that crags which can be toproped should be, and bolt lines not put up.
Is the satisfaction gained by "leading" and clipping the bolts or is it the climbing?
If you want to practice clipping on lead, go to the gym.
If the only safe way up a climb is to add a bolt here and there, then do it if the climb is "worthy" (another quagmire of semantics). If it's not "worthy" leave the junkpile alone.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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"BUT why is a junkpile less deserving of protection than Tuolumne?"
Are you serious?
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Rob_James
Mountain climber
Aoraki/Mt. Cook Village, New Zealand
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I'm wondering.
With so many strong men chilling in Chalten at the time, surely one and many must have heard the drilling going on. Thereby, why didn't a posse get together to stop things as they were unfolding?
Totally though, Lama is a bullocks. I'd like to think that locals take things into their own hands (as/if need-be) should the Lama return next season for his comeuppance.
Any names of the Euro guides used on the safety/film crew?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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It can happen when you take a sport film crew on an 'adventure production'.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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It seems to me that stopping drinking Red Bull is one way to get at the problem. I've never tried the stuff, myself, but given the amount of money they spend on advertising, someone must drink it.
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mission
Social climber
boulder,co
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The mountain gods were pissed, too:
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 14, 2010 - 08:59am PT
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Lama seems to view his climbing as if he is performing on a stage before an adoring audience.That being the case, he should realize that there are certain things you do on the stage and other things you do in your bathroom.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Jul 14, 2010 - 12:37pm PT
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Why couldn't Red Bull have left fixed cams instead of bolts to anchor their fixed lines. They have a lot of money evidenced by the flying a big crew to patagonia in the first place. I don't think that climbers would complain then, but some hard core climber would have a nice new rack.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 14, 2010 - 06:41pm PT
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"And, when someone can drill new bolts up our own Dihedral Wall, in order to claim a FFA, and get away with it, there is no stopping the spread of that sort of disease."
I told you guys this. I even published photos of retrobolts on this website right beside perfect cracks. Do I have to do it again? Brand new bolts a measured 16" from the A3 crack, right beside perfect Alien placements, etc. Unfortunately the perp is dead, so we can't make him take the bolts out. So now what? You guys have completely ignored this. WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
Hey everyone, if you want to climb an easy wall, go climb Dihedral.
I have still not heard if the bolts added by Tommy Caldwell on the Mescalito free attempt are within reach of the aid line, or knott. This is important to know.
"This is interesting to see so many up in arms about a route that 99% of the commenters here have never laid eyes on.
This retrobolting crap goes on every day at local crags (even - gasp- yosemite). I have watched many of you accepting and enabling this mentality with comments like "just leave the bolts..you'll only damage the rock", etc. Tacitly approving the addition of convenience belays, rap stations, added bolts, excessive cleaning, pruning, etc.
Why is this behavior ok in your own lives, but is so abhorrent on Compressor? Are your own modest routes and values less important?"
Hear! Hear! See comments re. Dihedral Wall and Mescalito above.
"RedBull and Lama should pay a team of experienced Patagonia climbers and guides to clean the mess, repair the rock as much as possible. They should not be allowed to go back to climb or film."
Emphatically concur.
Proposed solution:
Think about this a bit. Does Red Bull have ANY IDEA what's going on? They sponsor a hot climber to go climb a hot [cold] mountain. They send a film crew. Does Red Bull know anything about mountain ethics, climbing, or bolting? Probably knott. Accordingly, it's our job to educate them.
What we need to do is write to Red Bull, tell them that this is beyond not cool, and that their team basically broke all the ethical rules of mountaineering and climbing, cheating for the sake of convenience. Red Bull needs to know that sponsoring this kind of crap makes THEM look bad. They are probably unaware of this, or don't "get it". We need to teach them.
Who do we write? Anyone got a link or email please?
"One has to wonder what the Swiss or the French would say if the same was done in one of their most iconic peaks in the Alps by a team of foreigners."
"Ooh la la, merde alors! Someone 'as added more bolts! Tres bien! Zer are not enuff already!"
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rolo
climber
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Jul 21, 2010 - 07:35am PT
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I really like Will's piece. It is a very good analisis of what went on and what the problems with RB's approach are.
One correction, the bolts are on the route regardless of what RB says. The rap line is very much part of the route (in that area the route raps several different ways depending on conditions), and the bolts above while at times are 3 or 4 meters to the side of the line they will be seen and used by parties that climb by.
The Austrian guide responsible for the drilling argues regarding the rap line that it is safer, better, etc. My objection to his actions is that he, a non local, decided arbitrarly that it was needed. This is the first case of a retro-bolted rap line in the area, and should be something that should have come out organically as a result of a discussion amongst "locals" (visiting and local climbers alike, those that over the years have shown some passion for the area) and not by decree of a "one time visit mercenary".
rolo
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Jul 21, 2010 - 09:03am PT
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Well put Rolo.
I think there are a lot of issues that are coming to the surface here.
as one who has seen the "wrath" when the drill is used, i think the ethics of yesterday, go to the wayside when $$$ and films and sponsorships are in the game. It's the end result and the glory that motivate some of todays climbers. it's what you get with todays media/sponsor/corporate world..
Now, there has to be a balance when these projects are being done. When Coz, Eppi and i were on the Muir, our #1 concern was to make sure that our free attempt did not change the nature of the aid line. That came first and the drill came out for shoddy belays, and "replacing" the few lead bolts on Muir and adding a bare minimum on our "variations".... I know that is no longer the case on todays El Cap, and regardless of wether it's had drilled or power, too many bolts for the free ascent takes the Aid route out of play and reduces it to sport aid. I did Mescalito, Zodiac, Shield and the Nose in 86, and had to work for every move, every day on the three aid routes. Those routes are no longer hold the mystery and commitment that they once had. for better or for worse, it's just the way it is..
styles, change, ethics, change, we change but the rock stays the same..
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 21, 2010 - 09:04am PT
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The safer, more convenient argument has been used by some European climbers in Patagonia for decades- the bolts on Royal Flush come to mind. The Torre Towers are one of the most beautiful expressions of mountain sculpture on the planet and don't deserve to be turned into a via ferrata for everyone's enjoyment. Their very in-accessibility is part of their allure.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 21, 2010 - 09:12am PT
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Three months for this very important thread to garner 85 posts, par for the course on ST.....sighhhh!
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Jul 21, 2010 - 12:29pm PT
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Three months for this very important thread to garner 85 posts, par for the course on ST.....sighhhh!
I can assure you that many more people are following this thread than are posting to it. I, for one, don't have the depth of experience to have anything worth *posting*. But it's clearly an important topic, so I'm reading and thinking.
GO
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bmacd
climber
Relic Hominid
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Jul 21, 2010 - 12:37pm PT
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The Black Dyke in Squamish was sacraficed in pretty much the same way, for similar reasons. The energy required to offset these transgressions is very difficult to muster up.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jul 21, 2010 - 01:17pm PT
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I scanned through these posts and the question I basically ask myself is: When I used to be a super active climber, what were the questions asked and the assumptions drawn. Most of the time, if I heard of a cutting edge ascent, I assumed the folks involved were doing the whole climbing world proud. The means had something to do with my evaluation of the people involved. One of the reasons Ray Jardine was never highly valued in my era, despite his fantastic climbs, was that his methods were often remarkably lame and baffling for someone of such talent.
And that's what I see in this bolting frandango. A lot of the original routes on El Cap didn't have 60 bolts. The effort is lame, as Kurt said. Cutting edge folks don't do this kind of vandalism. These guys might be able to pull down, but so what.
JL
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ncrockclimber
climber
NC
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Jul 21, 2010 - 01:38pm PT
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...styles, change, ethics, change, we change but the rock stays the same
Nice post. The point, in my mind, is that the rock did not stay the same. based on what i am reading, they changed the nature of the route (rock).
Some places, challenges and mysteries need to remain unchanged and not suitable for mass consumption. Not everything is supposed to be filmed or blogged into submission. If this route as special as the climbers and guides claim, then maybe they should care less about filming it and more about preserving and respecting it.
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gonzo chemist
climber
Crane Jackson's Fountain St. Theater
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Jul 21, 2010 - 01:51pm PT
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In case anyone missed it, the most recent Rock and Ice Magazine had a short article that tried to absolve David Lama and his partner of any actual wrong-doing. It stated that the bolts were placed by the film crew, not the climbers, so the climbers weren't culpable.
That is some serious horsesh#t...
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jul 21, 2010 - 01:55pm PT
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Really Largo and ncrock,
I couldn't agree more with both of you! The gage is pegged. Does our advancing sport and art have to rototill everything it touches especially places like Cerro Torre?
But back to Jardine. This point of Largo's can't be overstated. Ray did get some great routes but we all eventually "found him out"; baffling was the adjective here for sure, it really was. Exactly what he was doing BESIDES chopping God steps into the Nose has been gone into here plenty in prior threads. Largo is absolutely right to claim that Rj's legacy is actually not highly valued today nor has it been for decades.
Regarding the Patagonia situation these characters were down there, way the hell and gone up on one of the wildest places on earth essentially rigging it up for commercial and dubious artist purposes, apparently left permanent messes and set precedent for further nonsense as well. It is really troubling.
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Jul 21, 2010 - 02:24pm PT
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Peter and LArgo are on it!
Are there not a few places still worthy of some sort of ethical preservation and respect for tradition?
Do we need to bolt and free every AID line on the big stone? In 5 years time will it become the next "sport crag"?
In my 30 years i have seen how RJ style pushed the number, but not the respect for the challenge. As for retro bolting, cookie monster was an obscure bridwell aid line, then went trad and only lasted 2 years with no know trad repeats before it became the "most popular .12 sport route" in the valley..
should we do the same for crack a go go?
again it is sad to me that places like Cerro Torre can't escape the taint of the hype and commercialism...
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bmacd
climber
Relic Hominid
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Jul 21, 2010 - 02:34pm PT
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David Lama = 21st century Ray Jardine
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 22, 2010 - 10:04am PT
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Bump- somebody has to keep a climbing post or two up front.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Jul 22, 2010 - 10:56am PT
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Thanks Jim,
Some great stuff on here.
Sure would like to read DR's opinion on this. Be an interesting read to say the least.
Not likely....but we're getting plenty of Donini!
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 22, 2010 - 12:30pm PT
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Will Gadd's blog piece was good-- folks following this should read it.
Climbing is becoming a video culture, rather than a literary one. And climbers/viewers expect increasingly high production values. And high production values = industrial infrastructure for filming.
Gadd also makes a good point about how obscure this debate will appear to outsiders. We use ecological language to criticize excess bolting, but the simple carbon footprint costs of a flight to patagonia vastly outweigh anything most of us are likely to do on the actual rock, including the new lama/rb holes in the crag.
To folks outside the community (including corporate at RB and elsewhere), the outrage over the new bolts will feel pretty arbitrary.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 22, 2010 - 12:33pm PT
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Agreed- from an ecological point of view the argument against excessive bolting makes little sense.
Regarding style the argument makes all the sense in the world. What is climbing without style.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Jul 22, 2010 - 12:35pm PT
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Whining about rudder design in the Americas Cup, don't mean shizzle to me either, but it's important to those folks......
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 22, 2010 - 01:05pm PT
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Agreed- from an ecological point of view the argument against excessive bolting makes little sense.
Regarding style the argument makes all the sense in the world. What is climbing without style.
The difficulty is making that argument to an outside audience, especially when the climbing "community" itself is not entirely unified.
America's Cup-- racing generally --is easier for audiences to understand, even if that understanding comes from watching tv spectacles that involved much higher ecological costs than a couple dozen holes in alpine granite.
The Gadd piece was a bit murky, and you could sort of see him thinking things through as he went, but it also had a good constructive suggestion, namely that the community needs to develop a strong sense of style for video production, especially in sensitive environments like Patagonia.
We should press sponsors, climbers and consumers to understand the impacts of film production, and develop the Leo Dickenson model: one cameraman, minimal infrastructure.
I think that's the real issue Gadd highlights, that this debacle isn't about climbing style, but about the infrastructural support around climbing and climbers. And this isn't the first controversy driven by filming of sponsored athletes-- just remember Delicate Arch.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 22, 2010 - 01:08pm PT
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When it comes to style you can't separate out the climbers from the support team/infrastructure- it's a package deal.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Jul 22, 2010 - 01:15pm PT
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especially in sensitive environments like Patagonia.
I don't see Patagonia being that much more "sensitive" than any other hunk of granite that we love.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 22, 2010 - 01:25pm PT
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I don't see Patagonia being that much more "sensitive" than any other hunk of granite that we love.
really? you'd put the valley floor and compressor route on par as user experiences?
you must be really tweaked about all the film crew bouldering video getting shot in the valley, then.
heh.
all granite isn't equal, at least not anymore. as gadd points out, filming in parts of the french and swiss alps is already "industrial." locals have long since made their peace with rap-bolting and bolt-protected cracks. if you want to fire up a campaign to chop that metal and streamline film crews there, go ahead, but no one's going to listen.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 22, 2010 - 01:30pm PT
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When it comes to style you can't separate out the climbers from the support team/infrastructure- it's a package deal.
What, you think Gadd's piece exculpates Lama? It didn't read that way to me. I thought it was pretty judicious. And it seemed to me that the upshot was that the climbers bore responsibility for pushing the Dickenson production model as part of sponsorship packages.
Indeed, I thought that Gadd's piece was good precisely because it did what it called for-- he's one of RB's athletes, and writing something public, accessible to the marketing teams and corporate, that tries to clarify the stakes and offer possible solutions, was commendable.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 22, 2010 - 01:34pm PT
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Kerwin (and Will) have a good point. In some of the world, what the Red Bull people did in Patagonia is the norm. Environmental impacts, whether real (air travel, resources, abandoned gear...) or largely symbolic (bolts), aren't even on the radar. The point being that what may be tolerable in some places isn't necessarily tolerable in others - context is important. There seems to have been a lack of perspective in what happened on Cerro Torre.
Many of these developments do seem linked to commercial climbing - filming, 'professional' climbers, guides of varying levels of professionalism, riggers, developers of huts and teleferiques, etc. We all share some of the blame for that.
There's little point to getting all high and mighty about it, though. We all have high impacts, both as climbers and as citizens of developed countries. And we could all do a lot to reduce those impacts, without significant effect on our lifestyles.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 22, 2010 - 01:43pm PT
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I didn't say that Gadd's piece exculpates RB. What I said was a general statement that, I believe, includes all climbers and their entourages, anytime, anywhere.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
Hollywood, CA
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Jul 22, 2010 - 01:44pm PT
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I talked to someone up in Tuolumne who knew about the situation and said that when everyone heard that they left all their crap up there (including tents, stoves, etc) that there was a mass run on it. Ropes, gear, stuff, all cleaned up and taken away (or rather bootied). Not sure if the bolts have been chopped but the other evidence has been removed.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 22, 2010 - 01:48pm PT
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The bolts have not been chopped. One would expect tents etc. to be removed. Do you leave your camping gear in the meadows?
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Jul 22, 2010 - 01:56pm PT
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really? you'd put the valley floor and compressor route on par as user experiences?
I think you're missing my point.
I didn't say that the film crew itself pissed me off, it's the 60 bolts.
So yes, if someone added 60 bolts to Tribal Rite for a film event, I'd be just as "tweaked".
you must be really tweaked about all the film crew bouldering video getting shot in the valley, then.
Have they added 60 bolts to any of the boulders they're filming?
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 22, 2010 - 03:12pm PT
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I didn't say that the film crew itself pissed me off, it's the 60 bolts.
So yes, if someone added 60 bolts to Tribal Rite for a film event, I'd be just as "tweaked".
There's been a lot more than 60 bolts added to granite routes in the French and Swiss Alps. I can't speak to what's been done specifically for filming, but find Gadd's comments believable, given the stories I've heard.
I just don't see the point of pretending that a campaign to promote a Dickenson model for filming of sponsored climbers is going to be feasible for those ares in the Alps, the way it might be for Patagonia. So, yes, suggesting that climbers should get behind less intrusive film models for "sensitive" areas seems pretty sensible. If you have a better adjective, feel free to use it.
You could demand that the Fr/Swiss areas strip their bolts, fill in the Jungfraubahn tunnel, and return to a single-cameraman video tradition, but then you're just venting on the net. Nothing wrong with that, I guess, if you have the free time and find it therapeutic.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jul 25, 2010 - 10:51pm PT
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Will Gadd's piece was instructive.
Lama is 19. A "prodigy" they say, but in what? Adventure routes, like the stuff you'd find in Patagonia? Not as chance. He's too young to have much experience in that arena. Lucky the kid didn't go get himself killed.
Per the adults: stitching this sacred peak with bolts, stringing sh#t on it bottom to top, abandoning all the junk, and then trying to pay off some locals to go clean up the mess all points to a crew vastly over-matched by a project seemingly "led" by a mere boy.
The fiction being perpetrated from the Lama camp is that they were a competent group who just made a few honest mistakes or slips in judgement. Nice try, but that's PR jive.
The facts incontrovertibly describe an incompetent group (in terms of handling that magnitude of a film project) who entirely lacked the judgement to know one way or the other the "right" mode of approach.
With a whole generation of gym-trained climber hitting middle age, I'd expect to see a lot more of this kind of thing in the near future.
JL
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jul 25, 2010 - 11:39pm PT
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Agreed, John. Good points.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Jul 26, 2010 - 01:44am PT
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Can a filmed event be considered "extreme" if the film crew is safe?
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Jack Burns
climber
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Jul 26, 2010 - 01:46am PT
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Red Bull gives you wings?
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
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Jul 26, 2010 - 10:54am PT
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David Lama, like Tony Haward of BP, just wants his life back.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 29, 2010 - 10:12am PT
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A skilled political statement for a 19 year old. One wonders,..
Thanks Michael.
Perhaps it is only right that the Torre persists in its role as a lightning rod for unbridled ambition.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jul 31, 2010 - 01:17pm PT
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Boycott Red Bull(shit) until they make a full public apology, renounce plans to continue the project and vow to clean up their mess.
If little David wants to slay the Alpine Golliath then let him do it on his own dime and without the circus of corporate whoring.
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The Wedge
Boulder climber
Santa Rosa & Bishop, CA
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Jul 31, 2010 - 02:28pm PT
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I sent Red Bull a note.
DID YOU?
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jul 31, 2010 - 02:30pm PT
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Yes I did, THREE TIMES! I got no indication that it went through. The site kept returning me to start over.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 31, 2010 - 02:56pm PT
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So how many bolts were added to the route and how many off to the side for the film crew? It was unclear to me.
Funny though, History repeats itself with a controversy about tactics and bolts on the compressor route.
Peace
Karl
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jul 31, 2010 - 03:58pm PT
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Karl. According to Rolando, well over 50 new bolts added. Almost all of them next to natural pro and many within arm's reach of the route.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 31, 2010 - 04:38pm PT
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Whatever the reason for or the posistion of the new bolts, the fact remains that arguably the world's most beautiful mountain is sporting more unneeded, unsightly human artifacts. Arguments are made that the Compressor Route is historically significant, a lot of human history is deplorable.
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ebosuna
Trad climber
Guadalajara
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Nov 21, 2010 - 12:18am PT
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I does not surprise me, that nobody speaks another lenguage in the US, and can not read what Rolando wrote, what do you call someone that speaks 3 lengauges, polyglot, someone that speaks 2 lenguages, bilingual, someone that speaks only one lenguage....a gringo !
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| Messages 1 - 113 of total 113 in this topic |
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