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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 11, 2010 - 04:22pm PT
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What about commercial climbers, who may have greater experience, skill and knowledge, but sometimes also have a greater sense of entitlement?
And what about those who 'camp' in the middle of popular routes, working on 'free' ascents?
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Senor Pinche Wey
Big Wall climber
OB
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May 11, 2010 - 04:29pm PT
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There is passed and then there is just chumped.
I was getting ready to climb Central Pillar one morning (dawn) and a party of three shows up from Canada. One of them says "Hey you left the lights on in your car" I run back down to turn them off (they weren't on) and they jump on the route. It was a good trick. They didn't know how to hand jam and after waiting a while we went and did something else.
It was hard not to snicker at them when they got caught in a thunderstorm later after spending the day getting to the middle of Pitch 3.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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May 11, 2010 - 07:02pm PT
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I guess I'm not very sympathetic to the "you can't pass because I don't want parties above me", at least for climbs like well traveled Yosemite routes. Loose alpine routes might be different, but then again, for many routes in that category you can get around parties by taking variations (its not like you could stop every one on Cathedral peak from climbing just because you got there first).
As far as taking a half hour to pass. I can't remember the last time I passed a party where we didn't simul-climb through. That's not taking a half hour. If I'm not comfortable/fast enough to simul through, I generally won't pass (or will try to wait for an easier pitch where I can).
I don't have a problem with letting a party pass if they are clearly faster. Although in the situation described above, if it is bumper-to-bumper parties, then no, that is not a passing situation (and I generally avoid starting up in that scenerio).
I guess it saves arguments, but I have thought it a little strange that the party that first arrives at the base of a route, is first in line, regardless of how many hours (uh, I mean minutes) it takes before they actually start climbing. But otherwise, I guess you would just clip the rope to a piece 15 feet off the deck and come down "because you forget something".
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Josh Nash
Social climber
riverbank ca
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May 12, 2010 - 03:39am PT
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I'm so glad I climb in uncrowded areas......
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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May 12, 2010 - 04:28am PT
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Best answer - go somewhere that has no other people.
We used to say that the density of the crowds in Yosemite decreased with the square of the distance from the road and the cube of the height above the road. Obviously that idea is obsolete.
If Yosemite has become a crowded climbing gym, how about deciding that politeness and good manners trump machismo demonstrations? Or are there now too many rats in the cage to allow civilized social behavior?
I like Walt Whitman's comment that in order for civilization to exist requires a back door to wilderness. And I always thought climbing was supposed to be a wilderness sport.
There is no shortage of rocks in the world. I realize that Becky tried to climb them all, but even he didn't come close. And there's lots more off planet.
I know this wiry old guy named John Young who climbed rocks on the moon. His opinion is that we have to get off this planet in order to save it, and we have to get off fast. I agree.
We just had an astronaut climb Mt Everest. I told him he should try El Capitan next. But I'd really like to see space travel transferred from military test pilots to wilderness adventurers.
We are just now reaching the point where some of this fine adventure spirit can help push exploring off the planet. The big money is still trying to launch motorhome sized spacecraft. It's not nearly so hard to launch something more like a motorcycle with a tent.
Have you ever looked at pictures of Olympus Mons on Mars rising 58,000 ft above the surrounding plains? And the 13,000 foot tall cliffs of the 600 mile long Valles Marineris make Yosemite look like some local practice rocks. And how many pull ups can you do in a gravity field where you weigh 38% as much as on Earth?
Or perhaps you'd rather just hang out with the local crowds...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 12, 2010 - 09:27am PT
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Cannon it seems that often the partys with the earliest start are the slowest. They sleep in the parking lot, wake up at 4,they sign the register as they leave the parking lot at 6am then god only knows what happenes from there. I wake up at 6am leave vt at 7:30 sign the register at 10.:00am take my time racking up at the base of Moby, climb as slow as I can and catch these guys on P3.. they are going to get passed one way or the other. I will be nice about it but it is going to happen. If you are that slow you actually do have an obligation to let a faster party through...
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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May 12, 2010 - 09:44am PT
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If the route is stacked with people on a moderate multipitch such as Birdland, Olive Oil, etc, it is not ok to climb over the top of everyone. I climb fast, but if I choose to climb a crowded route I accept the fact that I need to get in line. If someone wishes to let me by, thats great. But for others to try and pass me when I am waiting on multiple teams in front of me on while I am on lead, so that if they fall they will strip me off, that is horsesh#t.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 12, 2010 - 09:49am PT
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I agree. If the whole thing is a conga line then either do something else or be content with the slow pace. If however You are the VW buss that has miles of open road in front of it and a 2 mile logjam behind it, pull into the breakdown lane and eat a ham sandwich.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 12, 2010 - 12:12pm PT
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MeatBomb hits the nail on the head.
I got put in a wheelchair by a party that cut ahead of us.
If somebody absolutely refuses to wait and insists on doing something that threatens my life then I believe I have the right of self defense.
Your choice; leaded, or unleaded but with a very shortened rope,....
I'm one person you DON'T want to push by. Be polite to me and I'll be polite to you.
This is becoming a more and more important issue as routes get more crowded. I think it will be eventually addressed with a concept of consensus time "windows", sort of like "par" for the route.
If a party makes decent time then they have the option of denial.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 12, 2010 - 01:10pm PT
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I totally agree with you on that. If your moveing at a decent pace then the party below can take lunch or whatever to create some space between you and then all is good. If however you are seriously snailing it beyond reasonable then move asside and let the normal climbers play through.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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May 12, 2010 - 05:58pm PT
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I don't disagree with the concept but what is a "normal" or reasonable speed. Lets say you are the highest party on a long moderate route (royal arches, EB middle, etc.), are halfway up the route and expect to finish the route in another 4 to 6 hours (with plenty of daylight) and the party immediately behind you could, if it passed, finish in 1 to 2 hours. Since your speed is not a snail's pace (that would be say 8 to 10 hours and a twilight finish), it's reasonable to not let the party behind pass? I don't think I'm buying that one.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 12, 2010 - 06:47pm PT
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If you have a 4hr head start on me and I catch you on P3 that is not reasonable. It ain't rocket science.. If the party below gains on you rapidly and makes up several pitches for your one pitch then you should yeild.
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Alexey
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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May 12, 2010 - 07:35pm PT
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Hi Japhy, what was your rude passing party story?
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Japhy
Mountain climber
Kathmandu, Nepal
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Topic Author's Reply - May 12, 2010 - 08:22pm PT
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I was climbing Serenity Crack to Sons of Yesterday with my friend Brian on Friday. We started out at 10 am and topped out at 2:45pm, with a long lunch break at Sunset Ledge at noon.
On the last pitch of Sons of Yesterday, Brian led up. As he starts on the traversing crack, a girl comes up from below me and clips into one of the bolts of the anchor. I greet her, and she continues climbing the crack.
I asked her what she was doing, and she looked at me and plainly said, "I'm going to pass you." I responded and asked if she could wait at the anchors with me until Brian was finished leading the pitch. She refused and continued jamming up the crack.
Shocked that she was being so insistent, I told her "I'm not sure what kind of climbing ethics you observe, but what you're doing is very disrespectful."
She replied, "There is no reason why I shouldn't pass you. People do this all the time over here. Why shouldn't I be allowed to pass?"
At which point, I stumbled around my words defensively and said, "Well... I don't want you to compete with my leader for protection and to climb the ONLY crack on this pitch. Besides, he'll be done very soon."
"Well, then I won't place any protection." And with that, she continued upwards.
As she was just behind Brian, he fell unexpectedly. I caught his fall, and he went down just a foot or so from his last pro (red camalot). This was the first fall of the day, and shocked to find someone right next to him as he falls, he says, "Whoa, what are you doing?!?"
She says, "Dude, you just fell. Now let me pass."
Brian gets very defensive here and asks her to build an anchor right where she is and to wait for us to finish the pitch. Later he tells me how surprised he is that he fell in that spot and that it was totally unexpected (Brian, like me, has only taken 3 falls on gear, and each time, it is completely anticipated as we're pushing our limits; this slip on an easy 5.9 NOT because he was incompetent).
They argue momentarily mid-pitch (I'm not about the exact words). This whole time, the girl does not have a SINGLE piece of protection in the crack, and her last pro is one of the bolts I'm anchored to. She is traversing directly overhead of me, and looking below, there is not a single piece of pro for 30 feet. I understand that the whole upper crack on Sons is a BOMBER hand crack (I ran it out while leading too), but at this point, she is in a position that is endangering my partner and I if she fell.
Brian concedes, and lets her pass after realizing that she was very insistent on overtaking us. For the record, she finishes that whole pitch without a single piece of pro (90 feet).
Brian reaches the ledge at the top of the pitch behind her. The girl's partner arrives at my ledge and is moving swiftly (the two of them are simul-climbing the last two pitches, and are obviously very competent climbers).
I am very upset at this point and tell the guy, "Just so you know, your partner was being very inconsiderate to pass us up without permission. And I don't like that she didn't place any protection on the whole pitch."
He responds, "Well, sorry man... if you get passed up on a freeway, thats just the way it is," and continues climbing. Along the way, he manages to grab one of my quickdraws and racks it up.
When I notice that he has taken one of my draws, I yell up to him. He sheepishly admits that it looks just like his (it did), and clips it to one of our cams in the crack.
I climb up to join Brian. On my way up, I hear the three of them arguing. I have lots of words to say myself about the experience, but before I can say anything, Brian extends a hand out to her and says, "Hey, lets let bygones be bygones. How about we call it and move on."
They shake hands and are almost finished setting up a rappel. As I start spitting out angry words, Brian stops me and asks me to forget about it.
The guy mentions something about how they have "lots more climbing to do for the day," and the two of them disappear on rappel.
Brian and I spent the next 30 minutes atop that ledge talking about the incident. We had a lot to say about it, and decided to post the question up on Supertopo about passing protocol. In fact, our conversation atop the climb was so focused on the passing that we promised to each other that we didn't want to be talking about such a negative topic, and had to shake hands not to talk about it anymore.
Three rappels later, we reached Sunset Ledge.
And yes, this story is about my friend Brian who fell to his death that day.
I am extremely angry, but will refrain from naming any names. The couple who passed us are well known members of the local community.
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shipoopoi
Big Wall climber
oakland
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May 12, 2010 - 08:37pm PT
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if we are talking about passing on multi pitch climbs, then i can definitely say that i have been an ahole at times, especially on the regular route on fairview. we were working on a personal speed record one summer, and were trying to go sub two hour while pitching out the whole route except for the finish. We tried to go late to avoid crowds, but other, slower parties had the same idea. usually, a "please may we pass", combined with our sheer speed of 10-15 minutes per pitch for the both of us, would get a yes answer. other times, i was verbally denied passage, and passed anyway, with minimal danger or timeloss to the passed party, but really pissing some people off. one thing i do have to say in my defense is that if somebody is climbing the regular route on fairview,...then don't expect to have a wilderness freakin' experience on it. It is super popular every day of the summer, by slow and fast parties, and including free solist. If it is obvious to the party above that with just a few minutes of hanging out at a convenient belay, the super fast people below could zoom on by and everybody's happy.
just because somebody starts out first on a route does not entitle them to lead the entire route and deny passage to faster parties below.
and yes, passing should be done safely, only where reasonable, and preferably with consent.
when we finally climbed the route sub 2 hour, it was in part to finding nobody on the climb. Which brings a self limitation. if there is more than 2 parties below crescent ledge we won't go,...we'll find another climb. because we still like to huck laps on it.
last summer, we abrubtly came to a halt one pitch above crescent by a lady who first words to me were "you're not thinking of passing us are you." well, we both knew i wanted to, but with that vibe, i was stopped dead. she said the party above them was going slow, but they got there first and that gave them the right to stay in the lead. Good grief CHARLIE BROWN! when we got to the tree, that was it, we simuled to the top, past everbody, because you can climb just about anyhere up there with multiple exits. still, the lady seemed pissed off at me even though we took probably 2 extra hours on the climb being patient behind her.
i'm ranting...sorry.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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May 12, 2010 - 08:47pm PT
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everybody carries a knife, right?
so when the speedballs go to rap, wait til the guy is half way down then cut the rope.
i bet they never bother you again.
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okie
Trad climber
San Leandro, Ca
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May 12, 2010 - 08:50pm PT
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Depechez vous! Because... the further you go, the less you know...
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shipoopoi
Big Wall climber
oakland
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May 12, 2010 - 09:05pm PT
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japhy, wow, that's quite a story, really amazing. so sorry about last weekend. i just want to say that what they did was not cool at all, specifically passing brian while he was on lead on a single crack ststem. i HAVE passed a leader before while leading myself, but only after securing everybody's permission and acceptable comfort levels all around BECAUSE it is so dangerous. and the fact that she had no pro in...jesus christ...that is affecting your experience just way, way to much to be anywhere near cool.
I would like to take this opportunity to say sorry to anybody i pissed off while passing without permision as my above posts mentions. i sure don't do it anymore.
japhy, ehug to you, and i'll sign this with my real name in case you don't know me. sincerely, steve schneider
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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May 12, 2010 - 09:06pm PT
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you know , Hans told us that even while going for a speed record, they stop for about 30 seconds to chat with each party.
so if there were 6 parties that got passed, thats actually a record minus 3 minutes.
so if these guys are polite during a record attempt,
where, on the human ladder of coolness, does that put the jerks who pass?
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okie
Trad climber
San Leandro, Ca
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May 12, 2010 - 09:44pm PT
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Gotta say, this OP is kinda strange...considering the circumstances.
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