Climbing Death in Yosemite above the Awahanee

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WBraun

climber
May 18, 2010 - 01:30am PT
Why?

Because locker has what Dr.Sprock smokes in his bowl .....
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
Sprocketville
May 18, 2010 - 01:30am PT
1) the clove hitch is not a very secure not, it is designed to move and un ravel,

2) for that warm fuzzy feeling when your hangin,

3) if they use a blocking knot and it pulls, it is now resting on the biner gate from the outside (try it with some practice rope)
Fish_Products

Big Wall climber
May 18, 2010 - 01:32am PT
Dr.Sprock: 1) the clove hitch is not a very secure not, it is designed to move and un ravel,

Not true. Do you have a cite? Even if the clove moved (designed to ????) it moves to tighten, not some random orbit that is going to rifle through your anchor point.

Have you tested the clove in any drop tests? Have you measured the creep on clove hitches while under load?

Dr.Sprock: 3) if they use a blocking knot and it pulls, it is now resting on the biner gate from the outside (try it with some practice rope)

What are you talking about? If it pulls? How does "it" pull exactly? How does that knot get to the gate?


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'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
May 18, 2010 - 01:34am PT
My fvcking gosh YES! You need a locking crab!


"If you could somehow guarantee that rings were in place at all anchors, this still does not insure their inside diameter is appropriate, so you have to be able to tie a much larger version of your blocking knot or bring a blocking washer, to make sure your knot/washer can't pass through the existing rings.

The blocking knot/locking biner setup does not work well for plain slings, as the knot could pass through the slings. You would then be held by the locking biner, but you might not be able to pull the knot back through the slings. A (properly sized) ring/quicklink is required for the "pull cord" system."

Clint - normally a voice of reason on this forum - do you have any idea WTF you are talking about???

This system has NOTHING to do with washers, and has NOTHING to do with the size of the rappel anchor. And it has nothing to do with a "blocking knot". Rig it as Russ and the Petzl catalogue has shown. Use slings, carabiners you hate, whatever, it matters knott. It has to do with tying the knot that Russ shows.

I prefer using an alpine butterfly to the clove hitch Russ shows, but either will work - with a locker. [Would you trust your life to a single non-locking crab? I sure as hell wouldn't]

Russ is right - parachute cord, or spaghetti, will work as your pulldown cord.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
Sprocketville
May 18, 2010 - 01:35am PT
i just tied a clove to a biner, and it almost untied itself.

if the guy on rap takes a load off the rope, the knot could loosen and fall onto the gate.

if you need pics of what i am talking about, let me know.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 18, 2010 - 01:35am PT
One potential problem with the EDK system is the whole shebang getting crammed into the rappel rings or slings or whatever, and jamming. It's designed to pull very hard on one side, so that everything slides and is against the anchors. All the various knots and loops and tails and carabiners, combined with whatever's at the anchor, creates potential for stuck ropes.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
May 18, 2010 - 01:36am PT
Uh, hel - LOW - hoe!
Fish_Products

Big Wall climber
May 18, 2010 - 01:40am PT
Dr.Sprock: i just tied a clove to a biner, and it almost untied itself.

Operator error. Cinch your f*#king knots down. The knot will certainly be cinched after the first guy raps on it. The sky is not falling.
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
May 18, 2010 - 01:54am PT
PTPP..
hahahaha!

Yes, I agree with you, lurking here. Although, the conversation is muddied by (interesting) discussions of other (rapping 2 line) systems, and it is hard to tell them apart. Although, somebody had a point about rapping the skinny line and pulling the lead line in case the rope got stuck.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
Sprocketville
May 18, 2010 - 02:06am PT
ok, although i had to kind of fudge this to illustrate a point, the point is, that without a locker, this Could happen.

probably a thousand to one, but with a locker your odds go way up.

figure 8 is tied a bit loose due to cold hands, it wraps around the anchor and opens the gate.

now the biner slams into the anchor as you hope and pray that the steel ring does not break the allow biner.


Fish_Products

Big Wall climber
May 18, 2010 - 02:06am PT
Pete:
I prefer using an alpine butterfly to the clove hitch Russ shows, but either will work - with a locker. [Would you trust your life to a single non-locking crab? I sure as hell wouldn't]

As to the Alpine Butterfly.... if you are using the loop portion for the biner and then clipping that biner into the single rap line, that will not keep the knot from going through a rap ring. Sure you are alive, which is nice, but the rope is stuck at the anchor.

I just tied one with my lead line (9.2) and it honked right through a standard rap ring with minimal force. It is essential that the knot and biner are ONE up against the rap ring. That is why the clove is perfect for the job.

Edit for Sprock: that example above is not what I am suggesting or talking about. The figure 8 knot and any hoops you can make it jump through are apples to oranges. Look at my pics, set your test up exactly like my pics and then show me the possible failure modes.


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http://fishproductsblog.blogspot.com/
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
May 18, 2010 - 02:08am PT
I consider Clint's last statement to be worth considering...

"The blocking knot/locking biner setup does not work well for plain slings, as the knot could pass through the slings. You would then be held by the locking biner, but you might not be able to pull the knot back through the slings. A (properly sized) ring/quicklink is required for the "pull cord" system."

If I'm using a "pull cord" system of some type its almost certainly going to be in an alpine setting. 3/4ths of the way up the Diamond and lightning storm is hitting. I want down fast. If you run the rap rope merely through webbing, (then tie a loop and clip back to rap rope with locking biner) there is still the risk of the knot jumping the webbing. With the biner you are not going to die while rapping, but if you can't pull the line you may-well die of exposure. Having to prussic back up a stuck rap line in the rain and lightning would in itself be a dangerous outcome. Having some spare rings I think would greatly reduce the risk of a stuck rope. But, having said that, the alum rings don't weigh much.

Personally, I generally prefer a lead rope and light rap line, over double ropes, because you only have to handle one rope while belaying, and you can use the rap line for pulling up the pack if need be. But then each climb is a little different, and differing systems might be optimal. That's why we all own a trunk full of various ropes, right?


I will also add, that out of this whole thread, I did learn one good trick; the clove hitch on a biner. I like that (of course with biner clipped back through rap line). I hadn't thought of it before.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 18, 2010 - 02:10am PT
For any truly alpine situation, many use either double ropes, or a lead rope with a second rope that's thick enough to plausibly be used for leading if necessary.
karodrinker

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
May 18, 2010 - 02:13am PT
Heartbraking account japhy, I'm sorry for your loss. I shudder to think what your hands and heart feel like right now. You have, I imagine, learned true suffering.
Fish_Products

Big Wall climber
May 18, 2010 - 02:15am PT
Rockermike: I will also add, that out of this whole thread, I did learn one good trick; the clove hitch on a biner. I like that (of course with biner clipped back through rap line). I hadn't thought of it before.

Why do you like the biner clipped? How does it make you any safer?


See us on the web at:
http://www.FishProducts.com
http://fishproductsblog.blogspot.com/
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
May 18, 2010 - 02:22am PT
> This system has NOTHING to do with washers

The washer is simply a way to enlarge the effective outer diameter of the knot, so that it will not pass through the ring. I would use a clove hitch on a biner instead, or tie a larger knot, so I wouldn't have to carry a washer for that single purpose.

If I was rappelling all the way down the Nose from the top, and I knew rings were in place, I might take a (2" outer diameter) washer. It does have the advantage of preventing any part of a knot from going through the ring, and it can't be "untied".
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
Sprocketville
May 18, 2010 - 02:23am PT
here is a clove hitch after a few shakes,

Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
May 18, 2010 - 02:25am PT
The clove hitch is secure. You are weighting it. No shakes possible, unless you get onto a ledge, unweight and try very hard.
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
May 18, 2010 - 02:30am PT
Fish

So PTPP won't proclaim me a dead wanker. ha

but I am going to go with a locker and a ring.
Fish_Products

Big Wall climber
May 18, 2010 - 02:32am PT
Sprock has provided a picture of an un-cinched clove hitch.... wow that does look sketchy. So if you don't cinch it up real tight, shake it around a bunch, and then hop on a rappel with the clove all loose and on the gate, you are saying that is dangerous? Go figure. Use your bean man. There is judgement involved with these various processes and that pic is just showing a sloppy ass knot, not a possible failure mode in practice. Set it up on a rap ring as I've previously shown, load it, and then show me how it will fail.


See us on the web at:
http://www.FishProducts.com
http://fishproductsblog.blogspot.com/
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