Climbing Death in Yosemite above the Awahanee

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cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
May 18, 2010 - 02:34am PT
I can imagine a biner going through some sort of non-standard "rap ring" (e.g. like another biner).

Think of it as idiot-proofing - if one always clips the biner to the rope, then one never has to notice that one HAS to clip the biner to the rope because of some weird rap setup.


But I'm imaginative and an idiot...
Reticulous

Sport climber
Sacramento, CA
May 18, 2010 - 02:36am PT
Hey all,

I definately want to offer my prayers. We all make mistakes, and every so often they cost us everything.

On another note, I have not done a lot of big wall climbing that requires full rope rapps. The ones I have done have been done without incident and without even much worry, because I am under the impression that what I use is basically bombproof.

I run my lead through the rings and tie off a butterfly with a locking biner back to the front side. I then use a second full rope and tie off on the pull side with a double fisherman. I rapp on both using the big side of a fig. 8 and always prussic around both in my hand as a backup.

I am mainly wondering if this is a good way to go? It seems to me to be an improvement of the Petzl design, but would value all GOOD opinions. I haven't died yet, and don't really want to any time soon!

Credit: Reticulous
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
May 18, 2010 - 02:36am PT
Cleo,

Yes, sometimes there are "fixed" nonlocking biners at a rap anchor. (More likely at a sport anchor, about 30m off the ground, so you could rap with a single line). But there are fixed nonlocking biners atop p1 of Serenity Crack. You could then supply your own quicklink.

Reticulous,

Your system is the same as Petzl. Disadvantage is that the butterfly could possibly go into/through the rings, which hangs up the rappel. You don't die, but you have to jug up and rig something better. But you probably use a 10.x diameter lead line on a wall, and that is unlikely to get very far into the rings.
Fish_Products

Big Wall climber
May 18, 2010 - 02:37am PT
Re: Cleo
Somebody has their thinking cap on! Bravo.

It is situations like that where judgement comes into play. The old one size does not fit all.


See us on the web at:
http://www.FishProducts.com
http://fishproductsblog.blogspot.com/
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
Sprocketville
May 18, 2010 - 02:38am PT
so here is the correct setup, illustrating Pete's point that you can tie a frickin bow tie in your drag line, it don't matter, as long as you have the main enchillada all squared away.



that top biner would actually be a rap ring, doh!

ok then.

point me to el cap.
































I' Want To Die!
Fish_Products

Big Wall climber
May 18, 2010 - 02:42am PT
Reticulus: I run my lead through the rings and tie off a butterfly with a locking biner back to the front side. I then use a second full rope and tie off on the pull side with a double fisherman. I rapp on both using the big side of a fig. 8 and always prussic around both in my hand as a backup.

I am mainly wondering if this is a good way to go? It seems to me to be an improvement of the Petzl design, but would value all GOOD opinions. I haven't died yet, and don't really want to any time soon!

If you are rapping on both cords, why bother with the butterfly and biner clip jazz? Seems like more of a clusterf*#k up at the anchor than just the standard 2 strand rap.

DrSprock: snap out of it or you *are* going to die. That is not the right way. Your enchilada is not squared away. Are we even on the same page here or are you just running your own program?


See us on the web at:
http://www.FishProducts.com
http://fishproductsblog.blogspot.com/
Reticulous

Sport climber
Sacramento, CA
May 18, 2010 - 02:46am PT
Well the way I see it, I have never been scared to rappel this way, and quite honestly never even thought of dumbing it down. Would you suggest just the double fisherman and pull?
Fish_Products

Big Wall climber
May 18, 2010 - 02:47am PT
^^^

yes.... or EDK..... or fig 8 ... or....


See us on the web at:
http://www.FishProducts.com
http://fishproductsblog.blogspot.com/
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
Sprocketville
May 18, 2010 - 02:50am PT
please note that if you use this setup that it will be hard to screw it up, no matter what shape your mind is in, therefore negating the need for any silly check list attached to your harness?

or no.

we all place different value on our lives, so our safety should match accordingly.



Reticulous

Sport climber
Sacramento, CA
May 18, 2010 - 02:50am PT
OK, I'll consider it. That being said, would my setup be acceptable if rapping one side and using cord in place of a second lead?
Fish_Products

Big Wall climber
May 18, 2010 - 02:54am PT
Reticulous: OK, I'll consider it. That being said, would my setup be acceptable if rapping one side and using cord in place of a second lead?

In a word, yes. But, the knot you are using has the potential to pop through a standard rap ring, creating muchas problemas if it does. Look at the stuff I've posted above with the clove hitch. I think it is a far superior system to the one you thinking of using since it eliminates the possibility of the knot getting through the rap ring.


See us on the web at:
http://www.FishProducts.com
http://fishproductsblog.blogspot.com/
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
May 18, 2010 - 02:59am PT
I like the clove hitch.

It seems safer than the other 2 alternatives (e.g. a stuck, out-of-reach lead rope on an alpine climb, OR having to rap a skinny line so the lead line is available to climb to unstick).

bhilden

Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
May 18, 2010 - 03:32am PT
Geez, there are so many factors that are necessary to make this system work smoothly and properly that, by it's very nature, seems to fail the most primitive KISS test. Maybe if you are rappelling a trade route with known fixed anchors this is OK, but for general use this system just seems way too complex to be reliably safe.

Bruce
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
May 18, 2010 - 03:46am PT
Bruce - yep...


My interest is more for alpine or emergency situation.
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
May 18, 2010 - 03:54am PT
Rap ring / knot photofest part 17d:
10 rap ring setups seen in Yosemite. <br/>
Which can the 9.2mm rope with k...
10 rap ring setups seen in Yosemite.
Which can the 9.2mm rope with knot shown pass through under body weight?
Answer:
A, B, C: Yes, easily.
D, E, F: Yes, harder. The ring/link attaching the ring reduces the space.
G: Yes, harder.
H, I, J: No.
Credit: Clint Cummins
I believe the anchor atop Serenity Crack p3 was SMC rap rings on slings (B).

Failure mode of 9.2mm rope with double overhand knot, in oversize weld...
Failure mode of 9.2mm rope with double overhand knot, in oversize welded steel ring. Failure in SMC rings or Fixe ring on sling is the same - they are slightly tighter, but still plenty of room to pop through easily.
Credit: Clint Cummins
Above is my guess at Brian Ellis' setup which failed, based on Japhy's description. I could be wrong. The only differences I noticed are their rope was 10.2mm instead of 9.2mm, and the rings were 2 SMCs, which have the smaller inside diameter. Harder to get that through the rings, but it did go through.

Petzl setup with thin pull cord.  9.2mm main rope, oversize steel ring...
Petzl setup with thin pull cord. 9.2mm main rope, oversize steel ring.
Credit: Clint Cummins
Hangup mode of Petzl setup, with oversize ring - knot passes through r...
Hangup mode of Petzl setup, with oversize ring - knot passes through ring. You don't fall, but you probably can't pull knot back through ring.
Credit: Clint Cummins
Hangup mode of Petzl setup, different angle.  You are being held by th...
Hangup mode of Petzl setup, different angle. You are being held by the biner against the ring.
Credit: Clint Cummins
Clove hitch, not clipped to main rope &#40;works fine&#41;.  Oversize ...
Clove hitch, not clipped to main rope (works fine). Oversize steel welded ring. Works the same on standard smaller rings.
Credit: Clint Cummins
Clove hitch on locking biner, but clipped to main rope.  Changes angle...
Clove hitch on locking biner, but clipped to main rope. Changes angle on clove hitch a little.
Credit: Clint Cummins
Fish_Products

Big Wall climber
May 18, 2010 - 03:59am PT
^^^^

Clint! You da' MAN! Great set up.


See us on the web at:
http://www.FishProducts.com
http://fishproductsblog.blogspot.com/
Delhi Dog

Trad climber
Good Question...
May 18, 2010 - 03:59am PT
"What I mean by "properly tied" is illustrated with two photos in a post on in the thread started in a vain attempt to avoid technical discussions here. The part about EDK's is at the bottom of the post."

Well I tried...and there is some good info there too if you have knott looked...

Jephy, my heart goes out to you.
Peace,
DD
Andyfin

climber
May 18, 2010 - 04:41am PT
Hey!

My condolences to family, friends, and those there on the day.

I haven't used the clove not with the beaner, but it looks like an ok setup as long as the clove doesn't come loose for one reason or another.
For this reason I use a figure of eight with a locking beaner (with the beaner clipped on the leadline).
The important part is to attach the 5-6mm pulldown cord to the leadline knot with a figure of eight followed through, NOT THE TAIL. So if the knot goes through a ring with a large diameter partly or completely then it can be pulled back.

Sometimes I've had to pull down pretty hard if the knot is partly in the ring, that's why the knot of the pulldown line should be pretty solid. (Followed through 8 on another 8 is bomber no matter what the diameter difference.) To help the pulldown without wasting time, wrap the thin pulldown cord around you shoe a couple of times then press down with body weight while you or your partner shakes the lead line. This normally does the trick to get things going even if it jams mid way.

Another reason why you want the pulldown to be solid (and not a rubber band or bow tie) is that if you have to jug up the leadline to sort out a tangle, you will want your partner to be attached to your pulldown (if you are alone its a different scenario).
This in case you fall when the system frees while you are ascending. If the pulldown is not fixed you will shockload the top anchor when the beaner goes flying up to the top anchor.

I heard a good option is Mammut procord, it's light non stretch sling with a round diameter.

Be safe,
Adrian
dacooker

Sport climber
Vancouver, BC
May 18, 2010 - 08:45am PT
My thoughts are with the family, friends, and the climbing partner of the fellow climber who met a tragic end.
drennon

Trad climber
rocklin, ca
May 18, 2010 - 10:02am PT
such a tragedy, being an ex-climber. and a yosemite rock lover. it really pains me to hear these stories, especially how it happened. climbing takes in all sorts of riskd, and as climbers, we accept those risks. lets all hope he is in a good place, and god bless to his family.

you all stay safe out there,
scott
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