The Massive Ark on the Moon (very OT, but of high interest)

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TomCochrane

Trad climber

Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay

Apr 10, 2016 - 10:34pm PT

yes some stuff works fine and at each stage of 'history' the authorities and 'scientists' have claimed the moral high ground with each generation of 'flat earth theories'

Newtonian physics 'works' yet provides an incomplete understanding

Relativity 'works' yet admittedly provides an incomplete understanding and has not been fully proven in all aspects

quantum theory is also fundamental to modern physics, yet those who created it say that if you think you understand it then you haven't studied sufficiently … and the creator of relativity theory didn't believe in the truth of quantum theory

the relationships between relativity and quantum theory have not been resolved after decades of study and experimentation

Nicola Tesla developed much of what we call modern technology, yet much of his advanced work has been heavily suppressed because it can't be monopolized for a profit

the fundamental forces defined by physics are admittedly not properly defined or understood

string theory is fundamental to modern physics and cosmology, and has yet to be fully defined, understood or proven and may turn to be a contrived fantasy attempt at understanding, in which case modern physics has been spinning its wheels for three decades

if string theory is proven out, then our (multi)universe is a much stranger place than anything being considered in this discussion

Rupert Sheldrake's authoritative work to resolve some of the above is rejected by a misbelieving establishment that finds his proposals highly inconvenient

are we having fun yet?

if you think you understand it all, then i'd like to know what planet you think you come from

saying you know what is going on when you can't even be bothered to watch presentations by diligent researchers, just puts you in the category of lazy unfounded opinionated

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHxGQjirV-c&nohtml5=False

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Apr 10, 2016 - 11:23pm PT

Again, even common sense alone debunks it all. Come on Tom, like I said, you're a bright boy - just what percentage of ufo's tales do you believe are real? 1%, 10%, 50%, a 100%, and how do you tell one from the other - come'on, out with it...

TomCochrane

Trad climber

Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay

Apr 11, 2016 - 12:32am PT

did you watch the video with four hours of information???

if not, then you are wasting our time

are you trying to tell me everything he says is false?

it doesn't matter what i believe, either to you or in the grand scheme of things

what matters is questioning what is the reality and how can you tell what is real in a world full of disinformation?

and why all the disinformation?

sorting out reality from noise and myopia is the challenge

if you can't bring yourself to study the available material, then you are just adding to the noise from a position of persistently unstudied opinions

As to what I believe regarding these subjects:

i believe there is ample evidence of extensive domains of activity outside of the proper control of the American public, and their elected and appointed representatives, far beyond anything reasonably required for the defense of the homeland; with massive misappropriation of funds for projects which largely work against the best interests of the people of this nation and its nominal allies and the people of the world and the sustainability of life on the planet.

How much of this might be due to the influence of intelligent entities other than human seems nearly impossible to determine in the current ocean of secrecy and flood of disinformation that covers up criminal malfeasance on the part of those who have used financial and political schemes to misappropriate the power and control of populations and resources against the best interests of all concerned.

I see a large contingent of people who see all this to be wrong and have devoted impressive intelligence, time, and resources to understanding all this and shedding light on it with a view to dissolving whatever monopolies are creating and maintaining it, so as to provide a more positive view of the future.

A surprising number of such people seem to uncover evidence that there is strong influence to the affairs of this planet from non-human intelligent actors, some very helpful, some very destructive to the interests of humans and the health of the planet.

I have myself seen enough convincing evidence to think either there are such entities here on this planet or else there is a very advanced enterprise to convince people of such … or both.

There is so much material available on all of the above that I don't think the casual nay sayers on this thread have any where near enough knowledge to justify their casual skepticism and ridicule.

I participate here in this sort of discussion mainly out of respect for the intellectual strength of experienced rock climbers and hoping to enlist some helpful participation in the examination of available evidence. A few people here offer interesting perspectives and information sources. A few others seem to just provide useless disrespect for those trying to understand.

Those of you who can't be bothered to do some homework on these subjects are just a disappointment for my attempts to enlist your help, with your just holding to myopic views based upon a refusal to look at available material.

Does that answer your question?

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Apr 11, 2016 - 02:56am PT

Yes, you're delusional. Is retirement really that boring for you? Maybe you should start coding again.

And, yet again, why did a bright boy like you work for 'them' for your entire career? Or did you just wake up in retirement? I mean, like wtf, 'they' are writing your retirement checks; how does that work for you every time you cash one?

WBraun

climber

Apr 11, 2016 - 07:18am PT

Tom's much more advanced then most of you that are stuck in that deep well of mechanistic materialism only.

When you're told there is an ocean (metaphor) you can't believe it because you're stuck in that deep dark well of poor fund of knowledge.

The subtle material energies that Nicola Tesla revealed remain elusive to the deep dark well dwellers who are so stuck to the gross physical plane .......

Port

Trad climber

Norwalk, CT

Apr 11, 2016 - 07:40am PT

I'd rather be a materialist than a delusionist. But hey, have fun in fantasy land.

brotherbbock

climber

Alta Loma, CA

Apr 11, 2016 - 07:45am PT

TomCochrane

Trad climber

Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay

Apr 11, 2016 - 01:14pm PT

if you want to shed some light on delusions of delusions:

then forget YouTube lectures trying to explain things in understandable terms and go study up a little bit on quantum theory and string theory and modern cosmology studies published from the major national labs … all proving scientifically that physical reality is actually quite different from commonly held world views

oh, and perhaps you could also study up on the masters-of-illusion Banksters and look into the Fractional Reserve finance system and Quantitative Easing, and Credit-default swaps, and Liquid Negotiable Instruments, and Securitization, etc

never mind trying to examine the hundreds of USAPs Unacknowledged Special Access Projects within the 17 competing US intelligence agencies

oblivion, denial, and complacency are symptomatic of an epidemic social disease

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 11, 2016 - 01:50pm PT

How about answering the question I put to Klimmer

Please put in your own words a documented UFO event that we can trace back to the actual event that can be used as evidence that you're claims are valid.

No links or videos

TomCochrane

Trad climber

Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay

Apr 11, 2016 - 03:23pm PT

first off, i am not making any claims other than being interested

i respect that your question makes sense from your perspective, but your question can't be answered without qualifying what evidence you would accept from the perspective of your world view

it is easy to attempt answering your question from massive volumes of documented events and reports, but obviously you either have not looked at much and/or you have already rejected what you may have seen

so that makes it impossible to answer your question without first qualifying what evidence you would be willing to accept

since i don't know you, i can only speculate on what you might accept as reliable believable facts

clearly our government has a firm policy held throughout our lifetimes that there is no non-human intelligence presence on our planet and every attempt to show otherwise is subject to very serious efforts to discredit and obfuscate the information ... it seems you believe all that as gospel

in defense of your attitude, having managed federal projects for several decades, i can attest that any mentioning or display of interest in this subject is a serious career-limiting transgression except perhaps in private with a very trusted colleague

so let's imagine the POTUS appears on prime time news hour ABC/NBC/CBS flanked by his wife and family, the SecDef, CIA and NSA directors, and the Joint Chiefs, to make an announcement that planet earth is being invaded by an alien civilization … would you believe that?

i would not

ok then let's imagine that i visit you and during our visit a UFO saucer craft lands on the lawn and little grey men with big slanty eyes dressed in silvery suits take the two of us for a sightseeing tour of the solar system … would you believe that as evidence of an alien civilization visit?

i would not

you probably don't have a clue as to why i would not believe these events as reliable evidence, or as to what evidence i would consider believable … however what i believe or don't believe is a separate subject for another discussion independent of trying to answer your question

so i apologize being unable to properly answer your question satisfactorily without you first telling me what would be believable evidence for you

once you define your parameters of believable evidence i will see about satisfying your requirements

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 11, 2016 - 03:27pm PT

So not a single event can be discussed in detail?

But in total, they make the case that they are here or visiting.

Can you see why we have problems with the whole shebang
All we need is One case, one documented sighting, one artifact from an ET

but instead you tell us there are ZERO.

and that we have to tell you what are criteria for believing is.
My criteria is something that I can read or see with my own eyes, or reading someone that has done a scientific investigation on the subject.

That is pretty basic criteria for most people.
I don't believe things unless there are facts to back them up.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Apr 11, 2016 - 04:01pm PT

Again, seriously, what are the odds ? I mean - given the time and distances involved and the odds of detecting the Earth at all - just how likely is it we've seen one visit in the history of the planet let alone believe the U.S. has becoming a veritable alien LAX in the cosmologically femto-ish span of sixty years? I mean, seriously?

Ghost

climber

A long way from where I started

Apr 11, 2016 - 04:31pm PT

clearly our government has a firm policy held throughout our lifetimes that there is no non-human intelligence presence on our planet and every attempt to show otherwise is subject to very serious efforts to discredit and obfuscate the information

Which may well be true. But there are over 200 other governments in the world, and it seems unlikely -- to me, at least -- that all of them take the same view as yours does. Or would have the power to enforce that view if they did take it. So why aren't we seeing pictures from UFO observers in Norway? Or Nigeria? Or India? Or Argentina? With billions of people carrying cell phones equipped with hi-res cameras, why is there not a single good picture?

As I've said before, I expect there is other intelligent life out there. Some of that life may well have visited us, I doubt it, but it's certainly possible. But aliens in flying saucers buzzing around by the hundreds?

Edit: Or maybe I'm misunderstanding your idea. Maybe you're implying not that there are hundreds of flying saucers buzzing around, but rather that aliens (or whatever you want to call them) arrived here some time ago, and are now embedded in the US government.

TomCochrane

Trad climber

Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay

Apr 11, 2016 - 04:43pm PT

ok folks, you are just insulting your lack of research

there are in fact a number of governments and many senior officials who have opened up their files and testified to their knowledge of these things

and there are in fact thousands of images and reports flooding in from all around the world, including this country in spite of tight government security state control of the media

there have been many many very well documented cases discussed at great length and the planet is littered with solid physical evidence … you just have to look …

there is such a flood of information on these subjects from around the world that it is actually amazing to me how you folks can remain ignorant of it …

it doesn't really matter to you what i believe, and i am not interested in making any claims of great knowledge personally

but i am fascinated by the visible evidence and reports by researchers and participants and i have directed you to some sources

yet you seem willing to buy any silly story explaining away any solid evidence that can't be readily locked up behind a fence … if you even bother to notice ...

you just haven't been paying attention and are stuck in a reality paradigm that is not sustainable

please stop speculating about what i might believe and go look around for yourselves … it's all out there on the internet

the flood of real information is starting to overpower quasi-official attempts to spread disinformation

or i sincerely hope that you can comfortably live out your lives without something coming along to seriously rattle your cage

Splater

climber

Grey Matter

Apr 11, 2016 - 05:27pm PT

Only two more days left before
Friday the 13th falls on a WEdNesDay !! !
!

!

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Apr 11, 2016 - 05:54pm PT

I'm not asking what you believe, I'm asking an otherwise bright boy what are the odds?

TomCochrane

Trad climber

Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay

Apr 11, 2016 - 06:50pm PT

well i'm not bright enough to understand the point of either your back-handed complements or your underlying agenda

and a number of my close friends and colleagues are clearly much smarter than i

mainly i read a lot and can see systems patterns pretty well

what are the odds … funny you should ask ...

so what are the odds of finding a totally unique planet with a complex ecology based upon a very narrowly balanced mix of hydrocarbons and environmental conditions

what are the odds of that ecosystem randomly bioengineering 7 billion semi-intelligent primates all thinking they are the most highly evolved creatures in the universe, while callously destroying their own life support systems

what are the odds of the planet being littered with millions of ancient stone architectural constructions for which we don't know the purpose and that we don't know how to duplicate

what are the odds of thousands of creatures all over the planet being rapidly surgically explored in nearly identical patterns with no tracks and no blood remaining in the body … a feat that can't be duplicated in our most advanced medical laboratories

what are the odds of people all over the world reporting intriguingly similar encounters with strange creatures that don't resemble anything else we know to have evolved on this planet

what are the odds of military radar and aircraft all over the world, reporting active encounters with aerial vehicles that appear immune to what we consider to be the laws of physics

what are the odds of hundreds of thousands of strategic nuclear weapons on the planet and none of them have been used on populated areas since the first two in Japan

what are the odds of some of my brightest engineering friends claiming they didn't really invent their advanced technologies, they just were handed something surreptitiously and told to not talk about it, but make it practical and get a patent

what are the odds of our military industrial security state needing dozens of layers of secrecy to hide the secrets of what they claim does not exist

are we having fun yet

TomCochrane

Trad climber

Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay

Apr 11, 2016 - 07:09pm PT

in case i haven't been clear enough:

i am not convinced about much of anything except that we clearly don't know much

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 11, 2016 - 08:12pm PT

To assume that you don't know is the first problem

We know many things that can not be disputed

We have connections of the known to other known things, which confirm their existence.