The Massive Ark on the Moon (very OT, but of high interest)

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Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 29, 2010 - 12:54pm PT
The Massive Ark on the backside of the Moon . . .

Imaged by many official NASA Apollo Missions and some that are "Unofficial" . . .




From the official Apollo 15 image index and 2 images taken by apollo 15 . . . The coordinates of the massive ship are known.




From Photogrammetry using "Google Moon" we can determine the exact lat./long. coordinates of the massive ship and the diameter of "Isaac D" Craters (2 overlapping craters near the ship). Note, "Google Moon" hides the ship in low-resolution imagery and pixelation:





With this information we can then plot the diameter of "Isaac D" Craters onto the panoramic images taken during Apollo 15 for accurate scale to determine the actual size of the massive ship. It is bigger than I originally thought . . .





Well, how big is it? Here is an idea to its size compared to NY City . . .





What is it? And who made this massive craft? My hypothesis is, I think it is from Intra-terrestrials, Nephalim, from Man's hidden past. You have to read your Bible, the Book of Genesis, and the Book of Enoch to understand this hidden history. Fallen Angels mated with beautiful Earthly women, and had off-spring called Nephalim. They were big, strong, very intelligent and were the combination of the worst of the Fallen Angels, and the worst of Mankind. They were a hybrid species that wasn't supposed to be. The Bible has a lot to say about the Giants, the Nephalim. It is why GOD had to wipe them all out with a massive global flood. But the Bible also says they continued to live on after the flood. Not all of them were destroyed. Could it be that they also built an Ark and escaped off World? They had the intelligence of Angels, the Fallen Angels, whom by the way taught man all kinds of forbidden knowledge, such as War. The Book of Enoch goes into all of this in detail . . .





Here are great resources. I'll put up the clickable links later when I have more time.





Luca's new book regarding everything concerning Apollo 20. I haven't read it yet, but know the story very well. He has put in new information into the book not available on his website. Looks like a good read . . .















No matter what you think about all of this, NASA could easily confirm it or refute it if they just release all the high-resolution LRO imagery that they now are bound to have. They probably have enough imagery now of this site in very high resolution to view the craft from multiple 3D perspectives.

NASA needs to release all the LRO imagery they have taken. This imagery database is ours. We paid for it with our tax dollars. NASA should release all of it through a searchable Lat./Long. on-line database. We need to do this.

If NASA can do the following with all the Apollo landing sites, and they can, including finding Soviet Moon-rovers, then they can easily do so with this site supposively explored by Apollo 20 on the backside of the Moon.






No matter how you feel about this knowledge, this evidence, you have to admit it is pretty interesting, no matter whether you believe it or not. Once again, NASA can say "Yea" or "Nay" with the snap of their fingers. Why don't they?






Edit:

Adding the links here also . . .

Apollo 20 Resources:

Retiredafb at Revver.com
http://www.revver.com/u/retiredafb/

Moonwalker1966delta at Youtube.com
http://www.youtube.com/user/moonwalker1966delta

Angelismarriti – Homepage
http://www.angelismarriti.it/ANGELISMARRITI-ENG/home-ENG.htm

Angelismarrti – Article: Apollo 20 – Light and Shadow
http://www.angelismarriti.it/ANGELISMARRITI-ENG/REPORTS_ARTICLES/apollo20-lightsandhadows.htm

Angelismarrti – Book: Apollo 20 the Disclosure
http://www.angelismarriti.it/ANGELISMARRITI-ENG/books.htm

Lulu.com – Book Publisher: Apollo 20 the Disclosure
http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/apollo-20-the-disclosure/6383187

Ramistrip.com – Homepage
http://www.ramistrip.com/000%20web%20pages/000%20home01.html

Ramistrip.com – Apollo 20 Ship Size
http://www.ramistrip.com/000%20web%20pages/052%20Ship%20size.html

Ramistrip.com – Apollo 20 Best Image
http://www.ramistrip.com/000%20web%20pages/best%20image.html

Ramistrip.com – Apollo 20 Flight Path
http://www.ramistrip.com/000%20web%20pages/052flight.html

Ramistrip.com – Apollo 20 Image Reconstruction Steps
http://www.ramistrip.com/000%20web%20pages/052%20reconstruction%20steps.html

Ramistrip.com – Apollo 20 article by Alexander Bar-Elan
http://www.ramistrip.com/000%20web%20pages/880aba.html

Youtube Ramistrip:
http://www.youtube.com/user/rrmmii

Really good compiled videos by Ramistrip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZZWDpICa_U&feature=player_embedded#!

The Best: Alien Spaceship On The Moon - Apollo 20 Sleepwalk
http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/1233/Alien_Spaceship_on_the_Moon___Apollo_20_Sleepwalk/






I think the most credible videos posted by RetiredAFB are:

http://www.revver.com/video/624310/apollo-15-and-17-search-for-the-spaceship/

http://www.revver.com/video/624328/one-of-nasa-attempt-to-hide-alien-spacecraft/

http://www.revver.com/video/624322/alien-spaceship-on-the-moon-stills-from-apollo-20/

http://www.revver.com/video/642281/alien-spaceship-on-the-moon-flyover-before-landing-apollo-20/


Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 29, 2010 - 01:01pm PT
This should be entertaining...

"Paging Mt Potay. Mr Potay to the front desk!"
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Apr 29, 2010 - 01:22pm PT
I'll put up the clickable links later when I have more time.
Don't bother.
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Apr 29, 2010 - 01:24pm PT
Oh.

My.

God.

Is there any conspiracy that Klimmer DOESN'T believe?
Is there any science that Klimmer DOES believe?


Weld_it

Trad climber
Chatsworth
Apr 29, 2010 - 01:26pm PT
You are on to something here and thank you for bringing this important info out into the light and I wish more people would post this kinda of stuff, or welding stuff. Both are soooooo cool!
brotherbbock

Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
Apr 29, 2010 - 01:29pm PT
Wow......you are a full on nutball.
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Apr 29, 2010 - 01:30pm PT
WAIT!

THAT must be Noah's Ark!!!

Prezwoodz

climber
Anchorage
Apr 29, 2010 - 01:30pm PT
I firmly believe that first shot is a fake. It looks obvious to me.

Oh any linking it immediately to religion? Pretty much threw it off for me right there if I had any coherent scientific thought.
climbinginchico

Trad climber
Modesto, CA
Apr 29, 2010 - 01:34pm PT
You could go weld on the alien spaceship!

Yeah!
dirtbag

climber
Apr 29, 2010 - 01:35pm PT
Dude...c'mon.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Why'djya leave the ketchup on the table?
Apr 29, 2010 - 01:39pm PT
Hey, he's just offering you all a klimmer of the truth. He took you too the river, but doesn't insist that you step into the water. Seems pretty benign from my high perch.

Hug me
Squeeze me

DMT
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Apr 29, 2010 - 01:41pm PT
It looks like a giant turd to me....

Edit: Whats up with that image of Manhattan....The buildings and bridges are not in their correct places...and is that an image of Toronto on the left?
ydpl8s

Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
Apr 29, 2010 - 01:48pm PT
Hey, you posted this 28 days too late!
Pate

Trad climber
Apr 29, 2010 - 01:50pm PT
Klimmer, I heard they found intelligent life in YerAnus. But I don't believe it, probably just more crap.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 29, 2010 - 01:51pm PT
Is there not a curious mind at all on ST? Is it not OK to think and speculate? Wonder? Ponder? Ask questions?

Wow, we do it all the time in Science Fiction, and yet in the Sci-Fi World we have seen specualation and fore-thought come to fruition, and become our reality.

Sheeple, step outside the safety of your confined cubicles and boxes within your narrow limited minds.
James Doty

Trad climber
Idyllwild, Ca.
Apr 29, 2010 - 02:02pm PT
Thank you, Morpheus.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 29, 2010 - 02:04pm PT
Pate

Trad climber
Apr 29, 2010 - 02:06pm PT
Is there not a curious mind at all on ST?

Curious yes.

Schizophrenic and delusional, only you.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Apr 29, 2010 - 02:06pm PT
Steve L

Gym climber
SUR
Apr 29, 2010 - 02:26pm PT
Whales live (and die) there too.

Credit: Steve L
MisterE

Social climber
Across Town From Easy Street
Apr 29, 2010 - 02:31pm PT
I just wanted to post on this historical thread.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 29, 2010 - 02:31pm PT
Yes, and I suppose the best and brightest, many of our Apollo Astronauts and Shuttle and ISS Astronauts who have witnessed and have publically spoken regarding the UFOs that they have seen and that are under the control of intelligent life, these same astronauts are also delusional and crazy?

So we send crazy and delusional people to space? How do we manage that? How is that working out for us?


Why is it that the French, UK, Canadian, Mexican, and the Russian Governments are so much more willing to disclose the UFO and Alien presence, even producing on-line official government web-sites where you can read the historical accounts of sightings, yet NASA and our US Government are mute on the subject?

Truth happens.
Weld_it

Trad climber
Chatsworth
Apr 29, 2010 - 02:34pm PT
Can you post those extra links now? This is so exciting!
Pate

Trad climber
Apr 29, 2010 - 02:35pm PT
Categorizing yourself among "the best and brightest" is a stretch.

So we send crazy and delusional people to space?

We should, you'd do well there.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Apr 29, 2010 - 02:37pm PT
The Taco's Conspiracy Minister doesn't let up. Does he?

Don't forget: He purports to be a science teacher, too. But I don't believe it.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 29, 2010 - 02:39pm PT
I'll post the links in intelligent order that makes sense later today, after school when I'm at home. Don't have time to look them up now.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Why'djya leave the ketchup on the table?
Apr 29, 2010 - 02:43pm PT
I read Dhalgren, we do INDEED send crazy people to space.



DMT
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Apr 29, 2010 - 02:46pm PT
Dingus, don't pick on her. She was a victim of love.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 29, 2010 - 02:46pm PT
HFCS,

Don't you know High Fructose Corn Syrup is bad for everyone? It is one of the leading causes now in our diets linked to obescity and many other serious health issues. Why would you choose that as on-line name?

Teaching Credentials are available on-line. They are public. You can look it up. Answer your own questions.
Pate

Trad climber
Apr 29, 2010 - 02:50pm PT
Credit: Pate

Working on a Test-Tube Jesus?
Weld_it

Trad climber
Chatsworth
Apr 29, 2010 - 02:50pm PT
You are a great teacher Klimmer and these guys are just scarred of the TRUTH. Fight on brave warroir of the unknown.
Pate

Trad climber
Apr 29, 2010 - 02:51pm PT
it is one of the leading causes now in our diets linked to obescity and many other serious health issues.


It also causes bad spelling.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Apr 29, 2010 - 02:52pm PT
But does it cause bad welding?
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Good question?!?!?!?!?
Apr 29, 2010 - 02:55pm PT
Don't you know High Fructose Corn Syrup is bad for everyone? It is one of the leading causes now in our diets linked to obescity and many other serious health issues. Why would you choose that as on-line name?

I thought GOD made people fat.
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Apr 29, 2010 - 02:59pm PT
Actually Pate, Klimmer (aka Glenn Simpson) does consider himself to be among the best and brightest as he is among the top 33 physcists in the world battling the 6 or 7 evil government experts regarding 9/11.

Says so right here so it must be true:

Glenn Simpson (BA Physical Geography, HS Physics and Earth Science Teacher)

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=9635890&blogId=282438026

Not surprising at all that his expertise in analyzing grainy 9/11 youtube videos would extend to grainy moon shots as well.
WandaFuca

Social climber
From the gettin place
Apr 29, 2010 - 02:59pm PT



I'd tell you to use Occam's Razor, but they probably don't let you near anything sharp in your institution.



weschrist

Gym climber
left sac
Apr 29, 2010 - 03:02pm PT
Yes, and I suppose the best and brightest, many of our Apollo Astronauts and Shuttle and ISS Astronauts who have witnessed and have publically spoken regarding the UFOs that they have seen and that are under the control of intelligent life, these same astronauts are also delusional and crazy?

Keep in mind, some of our most honored and successful explorers throughout history have "seen" mermaids, sea monsters, talking bushes, giants, dragons, and now aliens.

Also keep in mind that you may very well need mental help if you believe those are real.
brotherbbock

Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
Apr 29, 2010 - 03:03pm PT
Klimmer you should teach an online course or perhaps a college class on this. I am so in to this stuff, I believe everything that you are saying here 100%.

The ONLY, and I mean THE ONLY explanation for those photos are giant half human, half angel demons that escaped god's wrath and went to the moon in a spaceship they built thousands of years ago.

Why can't you people here understand that?
TrundleBum

Trad climber
Las Vegas
Apr 29, 2010 - 03:05pm PT

Where's Locker when yah need'm?
ydpl8s

Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
Apr 29, 2010 - 03:08pm PT
I've got this strange feeling....

That he moonlights as a certified toprope instructor/guide at Devils Lake.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Apr 29, 2010 - 03:08pm PT
Trundle- You beat me to it!!

Paging LOCKER.
re: Glenn Simpson...



P.S. If one has a B.A. in physical geography, he's called a physicist? Hmm...
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Apr 29, 2010 - 03:13pm PT
Klimmer, thanks for the heads up, I'd seen it before, although your images look more enhanced for better viewing.

Ignore those who belittle you on this, it could be true. Or not. The truth will be out eventually. My great great grandfather once told me that man could never land a craft on the moon. He was positive on this. He was born when the civil war was still raging in Kentucky, and lived to hear Kennedy's pronouncement of the landing. 3 years after he passed on, Neil Armstrong stepped onto the dust.....
James Doty

Trad climber
Idyllwild, Ca.
Apr 29, 2010 - 03:17pm PT
If true, what then?
James Doty

Trad climber
Idyllwild, Ca.
Apr 29, 2010 - 03:19pm PT
I didn't see anything except the first CG photo.
Edit: Which looks like the mother ship in Aliens.
brotherbbock

Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
Apr 29, 2010 - 03:26pm PT
I'll take over Locker's cheesy photo-shop job for a second.


MeatBomb

Gym climber
Boise, I dee Hoe
Apr 29, 2010 - 03:27pm PT
If this is the dude that is the teacher in this link, he's got problems far beyond fake moon landings and 911 truthers:

http://www.ratemyteachers.com/glenn-simpson/107234-t

If you ask him about paragliding or Yes you will pass the class though! LOL!
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Why'djya leave the ketchup on the table?
Apr 29, 2010 - 03:30pm PT
If true, what then?

International Law regarding shipwrecks is quite clear.

If you can get there matey, the plunder be yours, arrrggghhhh!

Plunder I say.

DMT

James Doty

Trad climber
Idyllwild, Ca.
Apr 29, 2010 - 03:40pm PT
I travel there every month during my full moon meditation and I have never seen it. I will look again tonight.
Dick_Lugar

Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
Apr 29, 2010 - 03:50pm PT
The proposed spaceship looks like a giant alien turd to these untrained eyes...
Jingy

Social climber
Nowhere
Apr 29, 2010 - 03:55pm PT
looks more like a half smoked doooby...

but that might just be me....
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Apr 29, 2010 - 03:59pm PT
Meatbomb- That's an interesting site. Quite informative.
photo not found
Missing photo ID#155582

http://www.ratemyteachers.com/patrick-henry-high-school/3484-s/3
MeatBomb

Gym climber
Boise, I dee Hoe
Apr 29, 2010 - 04:05pm PT
LOL!!

http://henry.sandi.net/staff_directory/staff_info.php?id=84
weschrist

Gym climber
left sac
Apr 29, 2010 - 04:07pm PT
Sweet Jesus, this Klimmer dude teaches Physics? Are you fuking joking?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Apr 29, 2010 - 04:16pm PT
Ah, he seems like an alright dude.

http://henry.sandi.net/staff/gsimpson/root/aboutteach.html

It's America. And he's OUR "conspiracy minister", that's all.
Welcome, Glenn!
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Apr 29, 2010 - 04:21pm PT
Pate

Trad climber
Apr 29, 2010 - 04:38pm PT
edit: I take this post back. He's a douchebag. Let him have it.
James Doty

Trad climber
Idyllwild, Ca.
Apr 29, 2010 - 04:42pm PT
It is the same with all the conspiracy theories. If true then so what? Talk about it some more? Until there is a grassroots coming together of many like-minded people who are willing to act instead of talk nothing will change.
I have sat in on many of the Birds' immigration rants and when I could get a word in edge-wise I said the same thing. Let me know when the talking part is done.

Edit: That line also works when someone is threatening to kick my ass. Feel free to use it if you like.
James Doty

Trad climber
Idyllwild, Ca.
Apr 29, 2010 - 04:53pm PT
Pate, You are pretty funny.
brotherbbock

Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
Apr 29, 2010 - 05:10pm PT
here ya go Pate:

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Apr 29, 2010 - 05:13pm PT
Pate wrote-
"edit: I take this post back. He's a douchebag. Let him have it. "

Heck, what'd I miss?


EDIT 2:12p Oh brotherb, LOL!
MisterE

Social climber
Across Town From Easy Street
Apr 29, 2010 - 05:16pm PT
outed and 'shopped! wow, that was fast.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Apr 29, 2010 - 05:16pm PT
Now you've done it, he's going to nuke this thread!
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
Apr 29, 2010 - 05:17pm PT
Hi Klimmer;

Well the morons have certainly come out in force for this one. Even the NooB's like Meatball have showed up.

I will look forward to seeing your new links. The previous ones had a lot of entertainment value, and it stretches a mans mind to consider unpopular, unlikely or different options and viewpoints. And many of your topics have fit that framework.

Dumbshits like to expressive mouths who have popped up here, with their personal attacks against you are exactly those who would do best to practice learning from unusual ideas, concepts and sources, and yet are by their nature the least able to do so.


I see a lot of people saying that the Cyber bullying is a good reason why 13 year olds should be banned from social networking sites. Supertopo is a fine argument that age is not the only criteria. MANY people never grow past the stage of cyber bully. When the ignorant are no longer able to post, we may find a golden age of social networking. Until then, we are stuck with them as vulgar and hateful background noise.

Ignore them as much as possible.






Just for a note, Klimmer is not making this stuff up. MANY people are convinced that these photos and episodes from our past are true. This is not HIS story. I have no problem respecting Klimmer for reporting on those beliefs and the attendant evidence they have developed to support their position. It doesn't hurt anyone to view that work, no matter what your opinion. And make NO mistake, YOUR opinion is MERELY opinion.

Very few of us are in any position to actually make statements of fact on what is true or false in a matter such as this. A glimmer of truth is present in most myth, and if our brightest did not occasionally consider the possibility of a germ of truth in myth, we would never have determined ancient Troy and the Trojan Horse was real, that the Greeks had wildly sophisticated astronomical instruments before the Age of Iron, not available to the common man or that humans had achieved many miraculous journeys to the Americas FAR before Columbus ever wet his first diaper.



If you think Meatloaf in particular has even a MOMENT of lucidity on such a topic, you are every bit as foolish as those who follow Paxatwany Phred as a indicator of weather trends. And HFCS has been rapidly becoming one of the more bigmouth of the bullies, ordering us into his world of personal politics as though there were no other views possible.

SOMEBODY has gone to a LOT of trouble to produce these images, videos, stories and claims, and as I used to spend a lot of money on Sci Fi, I will approach this subject with a temporary willing suspension of disbelief until I have AT LEAST viewed them. Got to beat hell out of a lot of other stuff I read and view that passes itself off as fact in out modern age.

We live in an age where easily a quarter of what we are told is absolute rubbish. And the consequences of believing THAT trash leads us into the wars and deaths of tens of thousands of innocent people as a regular thing. Klimmers links can have no such outcomes, and so are considerably more safe and innocent than the rest of the unsupportable garbage we are fed.



I look forward to the entertainment of viewing you links.


Thanks Klimmer; they are always fun.



Pate

Trad climber
Apr 29, 2010 - 05:21pm PT
.........says one idiot to another.
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
Apr 29, 2010 - 05:27pm PT
All that LSD burn out your sense of humor along with 2/3's of the rest of your brain, Pate?


YOU got no right to talk at all.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Why'djya leave the ketchup on the table?
Apr 29, 2010 - 05:31pm PT
Booty.



I'm tellin you blokes, there is BOOTY up there.

DMT
Fritz

Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
Apr 29, 2010 - 05:33pm PT
Yep: Definately something there. On closer inspection: I don't think it is a spaceship, or a giant turd.

Obviously: (duh) it is another giant Idaho Spud!

I will leave how it got there up to Klimmer and Pate.

An Idaho icon.  The giant spud.  One of two???
An Idaho icon. The giant spud. One of two???
Credit: Fritz
Pate

Trad climber
Apr 29, 2010 - 05:33pm PT
All that LSD burn out your sense of humor along with 2/3's of the rest of your brain, Pate?

Nope, it left me enlightened.

Are you saying I don't have the right to express myself CokBlox?
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Apr 29, 2010 - 05:37pm PT
Some people just WANT to believe. It can give meaning to their life.

Klimmmer, I read your bio that was posted earlier. I'm a grad student at SDSU and work for the rockwall at the ARC. Come in sometime and well climb. I disagree with your theories but Im always down to climb.
Pate

Trad climber
Apr 29, 2010 - 05:39pm PT
Wocky is going to ratchet this up to a whole new level of stupid.

Credit: Pate
brotherbbock

Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
Apr 29, 2010 - 05:39pm PT
I just can't wait till Klimmer actually comes back and sees what he's started.
Pate

Trad climber
Apr 29, 2010 - 05:43pm PT
Wait a few more hours until Wocky is REALLY liquored up, then the fireworks will start.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Apr 29, 2010 - 05:45pm PT
Rok wrote-
And HFCS has been rapidly becoming one of the more bigmouth of the bullies, ordering us into his world of personal politics as though there were no other views possible.

What?! (1) How are we defining "bully" now?! (2) Who is "us," have we ever exchanged before today? No.

Oh man, how times are changing.
MeatBomb

Gym climber
Boise, I dee Hoe
Apr 29, 2010 - 05:46pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#151932

Have Faye adjust your meds Lance. You are becoming unhinged.
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Apr 29, 2010 - 05:47pm PT
If true, what then?--James Doty


Let's use the Kennedy Assassination for an example:

The majority of Americans are convinced that Lee Harvey Oswald acted as the lone gunman. So much has come out to prove this otherwise it is mind-boggling, and NOT just a made-up theory.

People are so programmed by their egos that when the truth is revealed--NOTHING happens!




OUR EGOS HAVE REPLACED THE QUEST FOR TRUTH--WE KNOW WHAT "WE" KNOW AND NOTHING ELSE.




...sad shite for humanity if you ask me.






Klimmer, take a road trip to Montana someday--I'd love to hang out and climb with you and leave our egos behind.

Pate

Trad climber
Apr 29, 2010 - 06:31pm PT
ordering us into his world of personal politics as though there were no other views possible.

The "us" is referring to the numerous seperate entities that occupy his cranium.

Especially "RokJox The Marionette" who at one time was broken into a thousand pieces, but has been glued back together.
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
Apr 29, 2010 - 06:39pm PT
Pate:
Wocky is going to ratchet this up to a whole new level of stupid.

Pate; YOUR ignorance is deafening. Just because YOU are not clever enough to understand what my broken Marionette metaphor referred to, YOU think you have a reason to scorn me? I lost a lot there, mostly the ability to tell some stories that I wanted to tell, and in that, most everybody on this site lost out. It bummed me, someday I may put them into a book form, and YOU and others can then PAY me for those stories, for what I was giving away for free.

Butt, you have no appreciation for what you get for free.




And Meatsack posts even more garbage, and can't offer even the common decency of using my avatar name, or leaving my wife's name out of his posts. Are you such an unmannered ass that you can't understand that my wife and my personal identity should be left out of supertopo? You have a manifest lack of decency Meat-turd. Try to grow up before you reproduce, we don't need many more such as you.








Given a good understanding of what the previous 5 thousand years of humanity has taught us, I can be pretty sure of being able to say this:

It is almost certain that half of everything we think we know of history, science and philosophy is complete crap and either wrong, poorly formulated or mistaken.

There is nothing that divides us from the previous 100,000 years but a small, VERY small period of experimental method to separate our beliefs from those of our ancestors. Given how wrong we have been in the past, I have little reason to believe that the future generations will not find us as superstitious, ignorant and plain goofy as we think of those from 500 years ago.


Our science is a thin veil passed over our ignorance, and our hubris is as unchanged as it ever has been. Who CAN say what happened 20,000 years ago? Nobody can look back even 10,000 years, our true history is as unknown as those of the planets we have begun finding and naming in other solar systems. And ten thousand years is RECENT history in terms of our species.



Pate

Trad climber
Apr 29, 2010 - 06:42pm PT
Which one was that Wocky? Marionette or WolfBoy?
MeatBomb

Gym climber
Boise, I dee Hoe
Apr 29, 2010 - 06:52pm PT
And Meatsack posts even more garbage, and can't offer even the common decency of using my avatar name, or leaving my wife's name out of his posts. Are you such an unmannered ass that you can't understand that my wife and my personal identity should be left out of supertopo? You have a manifest lack of decency Meat-turd. Try to grow up before you reproduce, we don't need many more such as you.

Umm. you posted that info on another thread along with your home address and phone number. Are you saying it is secret or something? If so, why did you post it? Would you like me to remove it? As for reproducing, aren't you the one with the handful of deadbeat kids (that are behind in their rent to you) as YOU posted on another thread? For a secretive guy you sure do post a lot about you and your family on the internet.

oh. Rained and snowed out of the Tower ascent. Never even got racked up. Saw your prediction on the other thread. Thanks for the vote of confidence douche!
James Doty

Trad climber
Idyllwild, Ca.
Apr 29, 2010 - 06:54pm PT
Rok,
I definitely agree about past history and our future. I do not believe that all of past cultures were superstitious, particularly the Chinese. I live and practice today, methods that date back thousands of years in Chinese history that absolutely work. Meditation, chi kung, etc. The moon meditation I mentioned upthread is an actual practice developed by the Taoists to utilize the energy of the moon that everyone feels to one degree or another. I was joking about going to the moon to match the thread topic. The actual method involves drawing the energy into yourself. It aids in lucid dreaming, dream control and developing precognition. I know, I sound nuts. Just trying to take some heat off of Klimmer:)
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Apr 29, 2010 - 06:57pm PT
I'm fairly sure that they keep wolves in the ark on the far side of the moon, and periodically release them in Rocky's backyard.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Apr 29, 2010 - 07:01pm PT
There is no need to post Klimmer's real name or pictures. I find his conspiracy threads to be as funny as anyone else, but what happens on Supertopo should stay on Supertopo.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Apr 29, 2010 - 07:04pm PT
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Apr 29, 2010 - 07:04pm PT
"There is no need to post Klimmer's real name or pictures..."

Agree to a point.

But does this not invite elaboration:
Klimmer wrote-
"Teaching Credentials are available on-line. They are public. You can look it up."

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1156814&msg=1156980#msg1156980



Nobody's twisting anybody's arm into having to participate in any of these threads. To my way of thinking, that makes all the difference.
WBraun

climber
Apr 29, 2010 - 07:15pm PT
The corn nut said: "To my way of thinking ...."

You couldn't think your way out of a paper bag.

You guys suck what you did to klimmer.

Fuk you !!!!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Apr 29, 2010 - 07:17pm PT
Maybe Klimmer was trolling. He's certainly got a lot of bites.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 29, 2010 - 07:18pm PT
There is no need to post Klimmer's real name or pictures. I find his conspiracy threads to be as funny as anyone else, but what happens on Supertopo should stay on Supertopo.

Totally agree.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Apr 29, 2010 - 07:24pm PT
He's hardly a shrinking violet. If he can't stand the heat, he shouldn't post up inflammatory subjects (conspiracies, religious stuff, of all things) on a public forum. He trolls like all the rest of us.

Braun- You're still pissed off for the scientific whipping you got on the other thread. Yeah, I know... "mental speculations..."


What's more: Nobody "bullied" Klimmer, either. Re-read the thread if you have to.
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Apr 29, 2010 - 07:30pm PT
Klimmer has posted his name a number of times. Do a google search on ST. He clearly does not care.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=site%3Asupertopo.com+glenn+simpson&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=site%3Asupertopo.com+glenn+simpson&gs_rfai=&fp=84c7fb41710deb10
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Apr 29, 2010 - 07:31pm PT
rj,
I lost a lot there, mostly the ability to tell some stories that I wanted to tell, and in that, most everybody on this site lost out. It bummed me, someday I may put them into a book form, and YOU and others can then PAY me for those stories, for what I was giving away for free.

yeah, there were tears rolling down all ST's cheeks when that happened...

pay you? i say we take up a collection to pay you to STFU!!!

only it would never work....
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 29, 2010 - 07:32pm PT
What a day! Had a little time to post today while the students are doing State testing, then Senior Portflios after school, then I check back into my mental bubble gum I call SuperTaco and what do I find?

HOLY MOTHER OF GOD, MARY, THE MOTHER OF JESUS!!

You guys go too far sometimes. I could nuke the thread. I have thought about it. Yes, there is a lot of info you can look up on a public teacher, but I didn't ask you to post it.

I have nothing to be ashamed of. I play fair. I ask questions of interest that I think we would all like to know the answer too. I try not to attack anyone. I try to live by The Golden Rule. You can go back and edit what you have done.


I will respond later. Right now I think I'm gonna go home, and have a drink.


I need a vacation. I need my happy place.





High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Apr 29, 2010 - 07:40pm PT
Klimmer wrote-
"...there is a lot of info you can look up on a public teacher, but I didn't ask you to post it."
No worries. Not from me. "What happens on the Taco stays on the Taco."

I agree.

Klimmer wrote-
"I ask questions of interest that I think we would all like to know the answer too. I try not to attack anyone. I try to live by The Golden Rule. You can go back and edit what you have done."

And here's my piece from this thread's sibling thread (which you decided to leave to go start your very own, you can check the timestamps):
"From another perspective, decision making (arguably the premiere feature of our species) leads to making decisions and taking stances. After much study, I decided long ago I would not be "agnostic" concerning the Gods of ancient Egypt or the Gods of ancient Greece or the Gods of the Ancient Mesopotamia (which includes God Jehovah, aka God of Moses, aka God of modern Christians and Muslims and Jews). -Anymore than I am "agnostic" about the Gulf of Tonkin incident. -Anymore than I am agnostic (i.e., without knowledge, unknowing) about a camalot's mechanical advantage or a granite rock's coefficient of friction."

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1155248&msg=1156077#msg1156077


You put forth a lot of whacky stuff. It's my right to exercise my decision-making power, to make decisions and to take stances against your whacky ideas and stuff. All the more important in modern democracies of which public forums are a part.

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Apr 29, 2010 - 07:41pm PT
your happy place isnt on the backside of some ladies moon is it???

on a serious note if someone wonders why our kids dont persue math and science just read your reviews, or your conspiracy theories...
MisterE

Social climber
Across Town From Easy Street
Apr 29, 2010 - 07:43pm PT
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 29, 2010 - 07:59pm PT
One last post before I go home . . .

"RateMyTeacher.com"

Haven't looked at that site for many years.

Yea, teach the students the full curriculum. Make it interesting, exciting, fun. Do lots of great labs that are directly relevant to the topic. Make them work. Make them learn. Hold them accountable. And the students who don't do well, don't do what is assigned, don't study, disrupt class, do poorly, don't end up with the grade they think they should have gotten (hey, you have to earn and work for your grade, its in the numbers no manipulation allowed) then jump on said site and post up their review. They used to block the site from all SDUSD computers at all schools. What is the point? Some Teenagers will do and say anything. Thankfully, most are really great. But some, some are like posters here on ST.

Many a great teachers are slandered on such sites. It's not unlike SuperTaco.
Ricardo Cabeza

climber
All Over.
Apr 29, 2010 - 08:13pm PT
Honestly, I'd like to hear Werners thoughts on this, beyond;'fuk you'.

Serious, Werner, please expound.
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
Apr 29, 2010 - 08:24pm PT
Pate: (speaking of a long period of hard drug abuse)
Nope, it left me enlightened.


Years of serious drug abuse left you enlightened???

I had to go pee when I read that!




In no known sense of the word do you ever present yourself as enlightened. You merely show that on the internet a poster may make any ridiculous claim at all. You spew vitriol and hate at an almost random number of posters, but most especially women. You spend almost no time making or developing intelligent responses to anything posted, instead filling hundreds of posts a week with three sentence explosions of scorn.

You demonstrate no sense of tolerance or reserve to others you disagree with at all. You display no special education or discursive skill, no reluctance to judge, no spiritual development.






Karl Baba shows signs of Enlightenment. Werner Braun shows signs of Enlightenment. Hell, TARBUSTER shows signs of enlightenment compared to YOU!

YOU make NO showing of any form of enlightenment that I have ever heard the word used to describe.


PLEASE please, pray tell, in WHAT way have you become enlightened?








Meathose, as Klimmer notes, while my identity has been known to dozens of people on this website, since about 15 minutes since my first post, around 6 years ago, and to many more dozens here from up to about 35 years ago, Nothing has ever suggested that a toady like yourself needs post my name or the NAME of my WIFE on this site. I understand that you are so ignorant that you can barely get laid, much less find a WIFE, butt, it is a matter of common decency when you are mean mouthing a man in public, you don't bring the actual name of his wife into the slander. Are you so poorly raised that your manners fail to include common, basic decency?


Apparently so.


Yes, I would like it if you would go back, and edit my wifes name off your slander. And go home tonight and consider what kind of a man you are, that I should have to remind you of common manners/decency.






And HFCS, we have indeed interacted on the political and social threads. But in particular the manner of religion (and to a lessor degree , politics) you HAVE become quite disrespectful. You scorn EVERYONES opinions, and whatever faith they may attest to, most vehemently.

There is NO reason that you MUST, by nature of your Atheist-ism (or occasional agnosticism) that you need feel compelled to beat up on those who profess Faith in some "Higher Power". Despite what you have said, NOBODY promotes their RELIGION as aggressively as you push you disparagement of their Faith. Nobody need to hear how much you hate religion.

Yes you may say it, sure, but you go FAR beyond giving you opinion, to giving your vehement opposition to their faith. Nobody is surprised that you don't find Jesus a person worthy of respect, or even those who believe they follow his example. But once you have said that, WHY do you have to browbeat them with it?

THAT is disrespect of people you have never met, and is destructive beyond a mere statement of disbelief.
franky

Trad climber
Bishop, CA
Apr 29, 2010 - 09:00pm PT
what the hell is wrong with you guys. jeebus. get back on topic, aliens on the moon... GO!!!
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Apr 29, 2010 - 09:02pm PT
NASA just released this picture.

James Doty

Trad climber
Idyllwild, Ca.
Apr 29, 2010 - 09:07pm PT
Wow, NASA finally comes clean!
Edit: And they seem very friendly up there.
Pate

Trad climber
Apr 29, 2010 - 09:08pm PT
graniteclimber- I'm in a coffee shop, and people just headswiveled to stare at me because that made me burst out laughing!
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
Apr 29, 2010 - 09:11pm PT
Your pathetic online rants in other forums about being arrested for bike theft and concealed weapon carrying highlight your problems.


I should point out that the lawsuit I instituted upon being accused of stealing a bike and CCW violation got me a good four figure settlement from the city. Nowadays I would have gotten a lot more. they were complete fabrications by the arresting officer, who just wanted me quit badly. He got a vacation a few months later.


And all your other lies just above about me could earn me another one, if I though you had enough money to go after you.



As to the rest? Your ignorance is obvious.
Pate

Trad climber
Apr 29, 2010 - 09:15pm PT
four figure settlement

$29.99?

You're a joke.
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
Apr 29, 2010 - 09:18pm PT
After I covered the legal bill, it was a GOOD four figures, still... a little better than 100 times your figure. Well, maybe a little better than that ... Even when I was poor, I didn't like lies about me.


From shooting people to poisoning there dogs to never knowing when a bullet will find them, you've crossed the line and broken the law

quoted from Pate (real name removed, as an act of kindness. My point was made).

(Or is that P(?)? Un-important, just like you.)







Just WHAT are you talking about there?? At the least, that is a DRAMATIC mischaracterization of any posts I may have made. They are slander, and/or a complete mis-remembrance of anything I may have posted.

Other than speeding or an occasional toke, I can't think of a law I have broken in decades. Yet YOU have posted of a great deal. Should I post your dirty laundry? It is HUGELY uglier than anything I have ever offered.





And meatball:
The reason I posted my name and address a month or so ago, about the time I seem to recall you first posted here, was that Pate was trying to blackmail me, using my identity, and the fastest way to shut him up was by posting my OWN name and address, thereby showing him it was an unworkable strategy. I tried to remove it as soon as my point was made, but certain 'tards seemed to think that it was a excuse to perma-post it, because it seemed I was sensitive to it, missing my point entirely.

Anything to try and harm me, eh? Even if its completely bogus.
Pate got the point at the time though.

P.S., I don't think you ever met me, and if you somehow did (?) I have been hanging with all the same guys for about 25 years, climbing, biking, skiing, drinking, bullshitting, etc; so I must have something of value to my company ... Maybe its just that I am of age, and can buy them beer ...
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
Apr 29, 2010 - 09:31pm PT
I have not written anything on this site, or any other, that was a deliberate lie or even a half truth.

No reason to.


My life has been more unusual than I can tell, especially now that Rokjox, my little troll puppet has had his name taken in vain so often. How would Juanito fare if all of his little troll puppets were destroyed every time he posted?
Pate

Trad climber
Apr 29, 2010 - 09:32pm PT
was that Pate was trying to blackmail me,

Dude, you are so twisted.

RokJox, at times I feel really sorry for you, because I think you believe the things you write. You need some help guy, obviously you have no friends and very little family backup.

You're going to snap.

No one tried to blackmail anyone Wocky. What could I ever want from you other than for you to give a terminal kiss to one of your guns on some dark lonely night?

You're delusional man. That means sick.

Stop editing your posts too. OCD freak.
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
Apr 29, 2010 - 09:42pm PT
It was cyber blackmail, not for money, but to get me to do what you wanted. It didn't work, did it?

And, for the most part, I am not lonely. I seldom get a chance to be, at the center of my family and all.



(Maybe OCD? Just a little? It helps when you write programs or perform other complicated functions, makes you need to get everything RIGHT.)






Hopefully Klimmer will bother to come back and post up any new stuff about the spacecraft. I want to hear what happened to the Moon-a Lisa! And "retiredafb", why hasn't he posted anything in about two years. Is he dead? And if so, what from?

Klimmers posts are like Lord of the Rings, it takes time for each new episode to manifest.
Waah!

climber
Idaho falls
Apr 29, 2010 - 09:45pm PT
RokJox, I think I speak for the masses here:

GET LOST

You go round and round and round, and it's so boring.

You annoying little sh#t.
Credit: Waah!

Pate

Trad climber
Apr 29, 2010 - 09:47pm PT
HAH! Looks like you've got a new friend Wocky.

You can get a Facebook page now, and have 1 FRIEND
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Apr 29, 2010 - 09:50pm PT
I think I speak for the masses:


YOU LITTLE OL' LADIES BICKERING HERE OFF TOPIC NEED TO GO TO A BINGO HALL OR SHUFFLEBOARD COURT AND DEAL WITH IT THERE!
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
Apr 29, 2010 - 09:51pm PT
(Mojede, I offered him a gym already.)





OH! my family!


Only one of the kids is screwed up as of this moment. I havn't seen him in a while. Unfortunate but true.


But as to the others!

One has just about finished his Electrical apprenticeship, and will be getting a 5 thousand dollar (plus) raise, his new daughter is doing fine, and his problems are about over, as he can pay off his debts soon now, and is finally too smart to go so far into debt.


And well, the other one, his oldest brother, just finished his MFA from NYU last year, and will be touring to Prague in 2012 for a Quadrennial Award ceremony, TWO of the shows he worked on are up for prizes. Sort of like the Oscars, for live theatre, but I don't have all of the details, I'd have to ask his mother for more details. Theatre is not my thing.

But he is doing quite well overall. He is the hope for the families first self made millionaire... (Other than my uncle, a mean, mean man that is!)


Do you have any other misrepresentations you'd like to pull, Pate? I am having fun telling it like it is.


Waah!

climber
Idaho falls
Apr 29, 2010 - 09:51pm PT
I'm no friend. BUt I've known of him for a long time. We're contemporaries you might say.
You've been crying for a long time RokJox, aren't you tired of it?

Credit: Waah!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 29, 2010 - 09:52pm PT
This started off as such a nice little entertaining thread.
Can't we all just get along?

They can!
They can!
Credit: Reilly
Pate

Trad climber
Apr 29, 2010 - 09:53pm PT
Not me RokJox- some other person in your enormous fan club I'm sure.
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
Apr 29, 2010 - 10:00pm PT
I don't know of anybody in Idaho Falls, personally, but a ham. One guy. So I guess you are right, we're not friends.


So whats YOUR beef? I cry on my own time. Certain things, crying is needed and appropriate. But most things I bitch about are complaints, not exactly tears.


Sorry if my insomnia encouraged to post problems here, it doesn't happen much any more. (Posting my problems, not the insomnia, that I got in spades.) I am sure whoever you are, you can get over it.

I have a perfect right to bitch about what Goldman Sachs did to the mortgage industry, or what Arizona racists are doing to Latino and Amerindians. Just like everybody else here. What you won't hear me crying about is the Park Service pulling bolts from their rock outcroppings.



Just biding time waiting for Klimmer to return. If Pate would stop lying about me, I could stop refuting those lies.

Favorite quotes today ...



"A lie unchallenged is a lie believed."

“A lie unchallenged becomes the truth.”

and ...

“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” ~ Mark Twain
Waah!

climber
Idaho falls
Apr 29, 2010 - 10:06pm PT
My beef? My beef is what a blathering idiot you are and always have been RokJox. No one wanted you around then, and the same stands for today.

That was a tall tale you just told about your offspring there RokJox. You should know better.
Credit: Waah!


bmacd

Trad climber
Beautiful, BC
Apr 29, 2010 - 10:07pm PT
I keep hoping for on topic discourse here ....

Hoaxed videos are associated with this tall tail depicting an Asian style pilotess
Waah!

climber
Idaho falls
Apr 29, 2010 - 10:09pm PT
All we ever hear from you RokJox. It's always someone else's fault. Just like a little baby.

Credit: Waah!
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
Apr 29, 2010 - 10:15pm PT
Thats the ticket. Mona Lisa. I want more Mona Lisa.






And I didn't lie about the kids. Oldest kid has already toured the US several times, and played everywhere from Europe to China. Martha Graham Dancers, Aquila Theatre Company of London and New York, and some others. A Fellowship at the Lincoln Center, a lot of great stuff. He was even a helicopter mechanic in the National Guard, to get the educational benefits to help pay for that stuff.


I seldom lie, but to a judge, a cop or my wife.

And seldom to them.

No need to.


Read it and weep, Wahh. You make up a special avatar just to rag on me? You are beginning to sound like just another fish. Troll away.

I can see where you get YOUR avatar photo from. Is that a Self Portrait?
Waah!

climber
Idaho falls
Apr 29, 2010 - 10:22pm PT
There there little baby, mommy's going to make it all right.

But you're still lying, and that will just bring more crying.

You've been crying a long long time RokJox, I know.

Credit: Waah!

My avatar is just to point out what you really are.
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
Apr 29, 2010 - 10:25pm PT
Looks like "projection" to me.


So, you have a facebook page where you try and talk little kids into suicide? Seems to be your style. Six out of a total of six lifetime posts, posting babies and slandering me. All in 15 minutes.

A little cyber bullying.

Yeah, thats mature.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 29, 2010 - 10:25pm PT
This forum has gotten mean lately, sad to say. Seems like Rokjox's Klimmer's and Fattrads personal lives are now deemed to be fair game.
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
Apr 29, 2010 - 10:29pm PT
Weschrist is also in there a lot.





Tell you what Pate and Bwahah, I will pull my ridiculous off-topic posts if you will pull yours. This is getting nowhere, and just serves to make the thread worthless. We could shorten this by about 30 posts real quick. And return it to a fun thread.
Waah!

climber
Idaho falls
Apr 29, 2010 - 10:30pm PT
I have no idea about the other two RokJox, but I know your track record, and I know that when a person expresses their true feelings about you, well, it's always in retaliation for something you've said or done. Both here in cyberspace and in real life.

dirtbag, you shouldn't be concerned about RokJox. he's never had friends, he's used to it.

Sad
Credit: Waah!
but true




LithiumMetalman

Trad climber
cesspool central
Apr 29, 2010 - 10:39pm PT
Interesting.

Anyone noticed how it took roughly 10 years to put a man on the moon (I'm dating from (1960ish-1969ish, Apollo Program)

yet...

It's been close to 40 years and we 'still' don't have a base or operations on the moon, yet?

Why is that?

I would think with our advancements in computers, metallurgy, bioagriculture, materials, and improved understanding on physical relativity, we would have something.

Or is something amiss?

Something to ponder and speculate.
Timid TopRope

Social climber
Paradise, CA
Apr 29, 2010 - 10:42pm PT
Best OT thread, ever.
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
Apr 29, 2010 - 10:48pm PT
Bwah;

So if that is so, what have I done to you, that you call ME a liar?

You clearly don't know me from anybody. Because I don't bother lying unless its something important, and ST is NOT important. Like I said. A judge, a cop or my wife.


"Are you remorseful?" "Yes sir."

"Do you know how fast you were going?" "No Sir"

"Where have you been?" " uh, .... "



What would be the fun of bragging if it wasn't all true??? I have occasionally, in the course of a long life, actually kicked some ass. After all, I have been out there a long ways, and a long time. SOMETIMES I had to have had a good day.

Its just the odds ...


(So how about lets pull some posts? One for one, we each pick which ones. Ourselves.)

Klimmer deserves a clean thread.

Or maybe he can just start a new one. ST needs more OT threads, right?
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Apr 29, 2010 - 10:54pm PT
Klimmer offers the chance at imagination.

Seems better than scrapping or grinding axes of righteousness.

What's not to like about crazy or pertinent opinion ?

All the things I know that can't be changed are oppressive and cause submission.
I guess it makes money but is that the whole point to existence ?
brotherbbock

Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
Apr 29, 2010 - 10:56pm PT
Holy shit!!!! I left to train for a bit and this thread exploded into armageddon?

Where the heck is alien boy Klimmer at?

I want more aliens on the moon.
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
Apr 29, 2010 - 11:02pm PT
I have the same question about why we never returned to the moon. When the last official Apollo spacecraft left the moon, NOBODY would have believed we would never return for 40 years. NOBODY!

But it seems to me that if there was a full size, city big Alien spacecraft there, we would have made 50 trips by now.



So is it the Aliens really have outlawed it? Seems they would have cleaned up the crash debris by now. Metal must be hard to come by on the moon, wouldn't recycling be smart?


The Grey Aliens must not really be very Green after all.
Waah!

climber
Idaho falls
Apr 29, 2010 - 11:10pm PT
Poor RokJox, always so desperate! What posts should I delete? I don't see anything I've done other than to call attention to your lying and crying.

Your successful family! Last I heard you were making your son's life miserable and trashing him all over the internet.

That's all.
Credit: Waah!

It's your party, cry if you want to.
LithiumMetalman

Trad climber
cesspool central
Apr 29, 2010 - 11:37pm PT
Focus!

So...prolly a few reasons for WHY we have not gone back after 6-7 Apollo missions.

-Political (Nixon axed funding due to public disapproval)
-Money (Apollo program recieved 4% of the Federal budget, now; NASA recieves less than 1%)
-(Don't Laugh) NASA has forgotten how.

check this out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxc7YV2QXzA&feature=player_embedded#!

I think this only part of the story.

brotherbbock

Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
Apr 29, 2010 - 11:44pm PT
The reason we haven't gone back is that the angel/human/alien hybrids are not allowing us to go back.

They will let us go back once they have mined enough dilithium crystals to power their ship that Klimmer is telling us about.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 30, 2010 - 12:15am PT
Apollo 20 Resources:

Retiredafb at Revver.com
http://www.revver.com/u/retiredafb/

Moonwalker1966delta at Youtube.com
http://www.youtube.com/user/moonwalker1966delta

Angelismarriti – Homepage
http://www.angelismarriti.it/ANGELISMARRITI-ENG/home-ENG.htm

Angelismarrti – Article: Apollo 20 – Light and Shadow
http://www.angelismarriti.it/ANGELISMARRITI-ENG/REPORTS_ARTICLES/apollo20-lightsandhadows.htm

Angelismarrti – Book: Apollo 20 the Disclosure
http://www.angelismarriti.it/ANGELISMARRITI-ENG/books.htm

Lulu.com – Book Publisher: Apollo 20 the Disclosure
http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/apollo-20-the-disclosure/6383187

Ramistrip.com – Homepage
http://www.ramistrip.com/000%20web%20pages/000%20home01.html

Ramistrip.com – Apollo 20 Ship Size
http://www.ramistrip.com/000%20web%20pages/052%20Ship%20size.html

Ramistrip.com – Apollo 20 Best Image
http://www.ramistrip.com/000%20web%20pages/best%20image.html

Ramistrip.com – Apollo 20 Flight Path
http://www.ramistrip.com/000%20web%20pages/052flight.html

Ramistrip.com – Apollo 20 Image Reconstruction Steps
http://www.ramistrip.com/000%20web%20pages/052%20reconstruction%20steps.html

Ramistrip.com – Apollo 20 article by Alexander Bar-Elan
http://www.ramistrip.com/000%20web%20pages/880aba.html

Youtube Ramistrip:
http://www.youtube.com/user/rrmmii

Really good compiled videos by Ramistrip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZZWDpICa_U&feature=player_embedded#!

The Best: Alien Spaceship On The Moon - Apollo 20 Sleepwalk
http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/1233/Alien_Spaceship_on_the_Moon___Apollo_20_Sleepwalk/






I think the most credible videos posted by RetiredAFB are:

http://www.revver.com/video/624310/apollo-15-and-17-search-for-the-spaceship/

http://www.revver.com/video/624328/one-of-nasa-attempt-to-hide-alien-spacecraft/

http://www.revver.com/video/624322/alien-spaceship-on-the-moon-stills-from-apollo-20/

http://www.revver.com/video/642281/alien-spaceship-on-the-moon-flyover-before-landing-apollo-20/





Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 30, 2010 - 12:17am PT
It would be nice for everyone to be civil.

Please talk substance and not personally attack one another.
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
Apr 30, 2010 - 12:22am PT
I had read that the plans for the Saturn Five booster were all destroyed, and all the clever old guys have gone now, leaving weak minded Gen X'ers in their place. So it is very likely we have forgotten how. A screaming pity, too.







No Klimmer yet? Also a pity.



So nothing else to do but post to brubwwaa.









So, regarding friends.

You seem to be implying that back when the Stonemasters were pairing off, I couldn't get a date.

If you had been, like me, a little older than most of them, (five years or so for most of them, (Other than say Jim and Werner), they might of seemed a little young, and being as they were all mostly from Cali, you might have seen as how you had little in common with them. After all, as Largo said, to be a stonemaster, at least at first, you had to climb some climb on Taquitz I never heard of. And I never had much need for a clique of Cali kids. They did their things, and I did mine. They weren't all that famous back when they was learning how to climb. LOL.

But there was something else, too. If you had by them gone to twenty plus some odd number of schools, like I had, you might have had a different Idea of exactly just what a friend WAS. Like I did. AND you might feel pretty independent of "friends" too. Like I was, and to some extent, still am. I don't exactly get lonely like some people do. I never had a friend last more than a few years, and one of my earliest memories was telling some pre-school friend I was moving and would never see him again. And if I did, how I would not recognize him. I understood early on how most "friends" were going to be very temporary in my life. Like before I learned to read.

I had no problem finding "PARTNERS" and they and I were almost always pretty good friends after a while. But once I had a partner, I didn't NEED anybody else. At all.

ONE partner at a time and I was HAPPY.




And as to friends NOW. Let me tell you what a friend is to an older man.

A friend is a guy who with his own rototiller and his own truck and gas, comes over on a blustery day and plows you a 600 square foot plus garden plot during an intermittent hailstorm. By himself! THAT is a friend.

Thats the guy that was at my house yesterday. A guy I have climbed, biked, hiked, camped, skied, drank and bullshitted with for 25 years. AS long as I have him, I don't NEED a lot of other friends. And I do have a few anyway, just because. (Because of 25 years of hanging in the same group.) Friends come and go. A VERY few hang on forever, IF you are lucky.

I am as lucky as I will get, right now.


I don't have a lot of friends. Friends are a kinda funny idea for a guy with a wife and family. Mostly THEY are my friends. My wife who calls me "Dear" and "Honey" and my kids are my real best friends. But I still have a couple real good friends outside of family, and I am blessed to have them.

It's enough. Too many "friends" dilute your sense of self.


AS to having one kid out of three who is kinda a shithead, he is. And I still have hope for him. Those hopes will just take a while to bear fruit. Right now, he is suffering from tough love, until his head comes around. I think he will get smarter as he matures. He has a way to go yet, but I have hopes.


Two superstars out of three ain't bad.


And I don't lie, hardly ever. No need to.




EDIT !!


Hey; Klimmers back!
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Apr 30, 2010 - 12:34am PT
"We speculate, we guess, we assume... but we do not know."
-Alexander Bar-Elan

My understanding is that the universe is vast, far beyond our human understanding. Based on this, any life form would need to travel thousands of times the speed of light in order to move around the universe.

So my questions is this: why would any life form that advanced have any interest in human affairs? I think the "truth" is that humans are an insignificant spec in the history of our universe. So small that we invent our own delusions about our place in the universe so that we may feel purpose. I doubt any other life forms in this universe have even come 1 million lights years from our planet, if they exist at all.

Klimmer: How do you think these beings achieved light travel?


Here is a great rendering of our universe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17jymDn0W6U
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 30, 2010 - 12:35am PT
Rokjox, Werner, and others who have posted positive messages . . .


Thanks :-)
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
Apr 30, 2010 - 12:40am PT
Some of you are reminding me why I like to be alone in the mountains as far as possible from the thoughts and voices of other people.

Speaking as a contractor systems engineer and project manager working at NASA on the Constellation lunar program and International Space Station program; I'll suggest that we have much to learn...

and good manners are the lubrication for civilization; please be more respectful of each other...

and I like Gandhi's reply to reporters asking his opinion of Western civilization: "I think it would be a good idea!"

If you want well researched information on unusual phenomena, check out my lifelong friend Linda Moulton Howe on earthfiles.com...
bmacd

Trad climber
Beautiful, BC
Apr 30, 2010 - 01:05am PT
Our Universe at Home Within a Larger Universe? So Suggests Physicist's Wormhole Research

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/04/100406172648.htm

Could our universe be located within the interior of a wormhole which itself is part of a black hole that lies within a much larger universe?

Such a scenario in which the universe is born from inside a wormhole (also called an Einstein-Rosen Bridge) is suggested in a paper from Indiana University theoretical physicist Nikodem Poplawski in Physics Letters B. The final version of the paper was available online March 29 and will be published in the journal edition April 12.

Poplawski takes advantage of the Euclidean-based coordinate system called isotropic coordinates to describe the gravitational field of a black hole and to model the radial geodesic motion of a massive particle into a black hole.

In studying the radial motion through the event horizon (a black hole's boundary) of two different types of black holes -- Schwarzschild and Einstein-Rosen, both of which are mathematically legitimate solutions of general relativity -- Poplawski admits that only experiment or observation can reveal the motion of a particle falling into an actual black hole. But he also notes that since observers can only see the outside of the black hole, the interior cannot be observed unless an observer enters or resides within.

"This condition would be satisfied if our universe were the interior of a black hole existing in a bigger universe," he said. "Because Einstein's general theory of relativity does not choose a time orientation, if a black hole can form from the gravitational collapse of matter through an event horizon in the future then the reverse process is also possible. Such a process would describe an exploding white hole: matter emerging from an event horizon in the past, like the expanding universe."
A white hole is connected to a black hole by an Einstein-Rosen bridge (wormhole) and is hypothetically the time reversal of a black hole. Poplawski's paper suggests that all astrophysical black holes, not just Schwarzschild and Einstein-Rosen black holes, may have Einstein-Rosen bridges, each with a new universe inside that formed simultaneously with the black hole.
"From that it follows that our universe could have itself formed from inside a black hole existing inside another universe," he said.

By continuing to study the gravitational collapse of a sphere of dust in isotropic coordinates, and by applying the current research to other types of black holes, views where the universe is born from the interior of an Einstein-Rosen black hole could avoid problems seen by scientists with the Big Bang theory and the black hole information loss problem which claims all information about matter is lost as it goes over the event horizon (in turn defying the laws of quantum physics).

This model in isotropic coordinates of the universe as a black hole could explain the origin of cosmic inflation, Poplawski theorizes.

Poplawski is a research associate in the IU Department of Physics. He holds an M.S. and a Ph.D. in physics from Indiana University and a M.S. in astronomy from the University of Warsaw, Poland.

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 30, 2010 - 01:10am PT
Port,

I do have a bias and I will readily admit it.

I come from a Christian Cosmological point of view. But I am willing to look into any educated guess and point of view. Empirical data does matter and it can change my point of view.

For some reason, out of all the massive Universe, Earth is a focus. It is also a focus for the Heavenly Hosts. They care what happens here. There is something about GOD's creation of Man. We were made physical and a little lower than the Angels. But he cares about us. They care about us. Some even went so far to falling in love with man and got to "know" Man in the Biblical sense.

I do not know where Heaven is. It would be very cool to know.

The Good Book says GOD is Light. Perhaps his Heavenly Host can also transform as light and travel at the speed of light throughout the Universe. As light you don't have to deal with the mass going off the scale, nor the enormous amounts of energy that are required to travel at these speeds, as Einstein determined would be the case.

I think they are Intra-Terrestrials and not Extra-Terrestrials. Well, I suppose it can be argued that Angels or Fallen Angels are Extra-Terresrial. But their off-spring with mankind, Nephalim, would be Intra-Terrestrial.

I think it is all about our hidden history, and not a distant intellectual life form travelling from a distant Star or Galaxy to be here, with the exception of Angels who can travel at the speed of light, and are therefore not hampered by such constraints.

Can I prove any of this? No. It is hypothesis, speculation, and faith at this time.

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Apr 30, 2010 - 01:19am PT
As this seems to be developing into parallel threads, here's a fine bit of art from Frogner Park in Oslo, the famous sculpture garden of Gustav Vigeland. It's called Sinnataggen, which roughly means the shrieking baby.
Credit: Mighty Hiker
MisterE

Social climber
Across Town From Easy Street
Apr 30, 2010 - 01:43am PT
I am just fascinated...and tired of popcorn...chocolate anyone?

Just desserts for all!
LithiumMetalman

Trad climber
cesspool central
Apr 30, 2010 - 02:01am PT
Think about it for a moment folks.

This is just an observation on my part:

NASA Space Program & Air Force Space Program

are

2 different programs, yet share 'some' cross-over.

Both program has to disclose budget amount to the public and feds on what, where and how much money is being spent. (There is an exception)

Take this into perspective

NASA's 2010 proposed fiscal budget is $20 billion

http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2009/may/HQ_09-102_FY2010Budget.html

That's $18-20 billion a year to run, maintain infrastructure and research new technologies.

That may sound alot.


however


Let's look at the Air Force fiscal budget for 2010:

$160.5 billion for 2010 fiscal

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123148160

That's just to run the infrastructure, people, modernization.

This does include some research funding ($12 billion went to Space research technologies funding), but not all, from what I understand:

We have to include DARPA funding which the unclassified budget for 2010 fiscal year can be seen here (It's about $3 billion a year, has unclassified monies on Space development)

http://www.darpa.mil/Docs/FY2011PresBudget28Jan10%20Final.pdf

and let's not forget Department of Defense unclassified funding of about $80 billion in research (For aerospace/space budget look at line 5 0602201F - line 9 0602601F)

http://comptroller.defense.gov/defbudget/fy2011/fy2011_r1.pdf

This is just some of the unclassfied funding for space and air programs

This does not include undisclosed funds for further research or development! (This is the exception)

So fiscal recap:

Civilian NASA $ vs Military Air Force $$$


Also:

The Air Force Space program (And all defense programs) can utilize private sector as well as public sector research for further development, it's encouraged:

http://https://www.cfda.gov/index?s=program&mode=form&tab=step1&id=2b425843d94185da0e1258f35505a37b

NASA is only now being encouraged to expand more into the private sector now (always had a prescence)...but if one looks at the history of the Apollo program...NASA utilized both public AND private sectors to greater degree than now...not unlike the Military.

Last but not least:

-NASA must share all technological discoveries with the public as stated in Space Act of 1958

-The Air Force Space Program does not have too.


So what does this mean?

That means money applied to US Air Force Space research, public AND private sectors means an increased utlization of research, resources & most importantly: increase in technological achievements over NASA. (they loaned $200mil to help out NASA with the last launch)

So what does this have to do with the moon?

Well the moon is fantastic source for Helium-3 for nuclear fusion power and as someone said "He who owns the moon, owns energy = dominant power"

so

I would not be too surprised if we have gone back to the moon (after the Apollo program) to claim stake, establish facilities & mine for H-3 for fuel

I wouldn't be too surprised if the military space research had figured out the prototypes, if not more, on nuclear fusion engine technology.

Think that sounds a little too far fetched?

Check out what Helion technologies & Tri-Alpha (that's just a few out of many) have been up to on nuclear fusion technology recently.


Anyways, apologize for the length of the blurb, these are just my thoughts.


As in terms of aliens on the backside of the moon, could be some grain of truth there, but who knows? ;-)

Cheers







Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
Apr 30, 2010 - 02:04am PT
BMACD THAT is a worthy post for this thread. A theory I have never heard of, that would explain a lot of curious impossibilities that we observe in this universe.

I will read that and look stuff on on that idea for a long time. Thank you!






In a big enough ship, multi generational travel would be possible, and that would make the distance from nearby stars possible. It would take a huge ship with a lot of shielding and a huge slow accelerating drive. But there is a better way.



Another way I have tried to describe would be in a much smaller ship, unmanned until the craft neared its destination, when a robotic agent would/could stir up a organic creature to make the necessary/desired independent investigations on the planet or other location desired. Create a entire creature from DNA mathmatics sotred on a hard drive within the ship, exactly created to perform a series of actions in a specific environment. Such a ship would not need be limited by lifeform's ability to withstand g-forces, or the need for radiation shielding, as it would have no life to protect until it got to its target. Such a creature might not look anything like those from the place it was sent from, might have a unusually short life, and no need of reproduction, being created exactly for its purpose.

A purely robotic ship could easily be designed to make a 500 year or even longer trip, one way, being destroyed when it was of no more use. Given an alien race of long life, either naturally or through willful selection, who knows how long a period of time such a race might consider waiting for its answers to be radio'ed or lasered back to the originating planet? After all, all the time would be spent getting the ship here, after that, the science and the reply of the data back to the home world would be very fast in comparison. After all, laser communication would be at the speed of light. Once you have waited 500 years to get the ship here, a 10 year wait to get the data back is quite reasonable. Perhaps a lifeform around a near star with the lifespan of a redwood tree, or a turtle?


I got lots of possibilities, for almost anything. Question is, are any of them have possibilities relational to actual reality?

I think every idea has an expression somewhere in the universe.

Assuming infinity, as we have been told exists, then EVERYTHING that is POSSIBLE, MUST occur SOMEWHERE at SOMETIME, right? Or infinity does not exist. But is it happening here and now, or nearby and near-now (in the sense of observable reality, say the last million years, to pick a number)??
MisterE

Social climber
Across Town From Easy Street
Apr 30, 2010 - 02:07am PT
WandaFuca

Social climber
From the gettin place
Apr 30, 2010 - 02:08am PT
Werner likes to dismissively refer to, "mental speculations!"

I don't think there is anything wrong with speculation, but as I said earlier . . .


I'd tell you to use Occam's Razor, but they probably don't let you near anything sharp in your institution.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 30, 2010 - 02:09am PT
LMN,

All true. NASA is DoD. You have to read the mission statement and charter of NASA carefully and it spells it out. And DoD has a very deep secret pocket.

The book Dark Mission: the Secret History of NASA goes into detail on this.
http://www.darkmission.net/
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Apr 30, 2010 - 02:17am PT
Eric's photo poetically sums it up.
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
Apr 30, 2010 - 02:24am PT
Right now, when the world is about to see the end of manned missions in vehicles like the shuttle, the DOD manages to boost a ship the kind nobody has ever heard of, and we know nothing of what its capabilities are, its duration may be, or where it came from. The X-37B. All we can tell from the photo released is that it has the capability to go and return. Presumably automatically. But while the need for GOING is obvious, WHY would it need the ability to RETURN? Return with WHAT?


Just WHAT is this baby good for?

After a few delays, the United States Air Force will be launching it's ultra-secretive X-37B Robotic Space Plane tomorrow: April 22, 2010. The air force has been trying to keep the launch under wraps but news has slowly leaked out.

The X-37B has been a work in progress for the past decade and is finally ready to launch.

The X-37B Robotic Space Plane is being carried by an unmanned rocket and once in space, the X-37B will perform technology tests before autonomously gliding back to Earth to land on a runway in California.

The X-37B was built by Boeing and weighs around 11,000 pounds and is just over 29 feet in length and is designed to fly unmanned and is able to remain in orbit for around 9 months.




The entire budget of NASA could be hidden in the left hip pocket of the Military.


The military doesn't like to have any capability that someone else may have outside its ability.

I suspect the military may have a manned capability they are hiding, if just on the outside chance they may need a man or men up there someday. Reportedly they didn't like sending some of their satellites up in the shuttle, because they could not control the publicity and other factors. They always wanted their OWN shuttle, basically. Maybe they have had it, or are just bringing it online right now, so they feel the original shuttle can be dispensed with.









The Intrepid Air and Space Museum is reportedly trying to get a Shuttle to display on the barge next to the Concorde and the Growler. I would LOVE to go and see that if it happens. Being able to thump and fondle a wing of the A-12 was itself a great treat, and one I have gone back to experience a couple of times, alone.

I also loved being able to visit the Captains and the Admirals quarters in the Intrepid. THAT is a GREAT exhibit! Someday I hope to see the engine room and the boilers.






Thanks for the links Klimmer, I am only about half through them so far...
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 30, 2010 - 03:00am PT
Thanks TomCochrane. Good site.


http://www.earthfiles.com/

April 26, 2010 - Physicist Stephen Hawking Says Cosmic
Alien Life Probable and Perhaps Dangerous.

“To my mathematical brain, the numbers alone make thinking about aliens perfectly rational. The real challenge is to work out what aliens might actually be like. ... If aliens visit us, the outcome would be much as when Columbus landed in America, which didn't turn out well for the Native Americans.” - Stephen Hawking, Ph.D., Theoretical Physicist and Mathematician


Stephen Hawking: alien life is out there, scientist warns
Stephen Hawking has suggested that aliens almost certainly exist but has warned humanity not to try to contact them.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/7631252/Stephen-Hawking-alien-life-is-out-there-scientist-warns.html
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 30, 2010 - 03:05am PT
Rokjox,

Good stuff. I didn't know about The X-37B Robotic Space Plane. How difficult would it be to design one for manned flight? Not very me thinks.
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
Apr 30, 2010 - 03:15am PT
The military uses a thing that looks like a airstream trailer to bolt inside a cargo plane for the use of high value passengers, like a general or president. I bet a very similar gadget could be used for carrying a small squad into orbit.

Like James Bond in that movie where they show soldiers who are having a small space battle.


I still wonder what is the advantage of having a device that can do long duration missions and return to Vandenburg on autopilot ... A device that can do long durations can use orbital mechanics to achieve very high orbits, without using much fuel, perhaps even reaching LaGrange points.

Using "chaotic" orbits a VERY high position is possible for at least a little while. Think they want to steal smaller Chinese satellites? Actually matching an orbit might be really hard that way, but getting close enough to shoot at something as it passes by might be possible. Anything but an impact weapon would be handy so as to not create an " orbital cascade".

Short range Lasers?







Edit:
So "MisterE" WHY can't somebody have a thread without a passel of dickwads screwing it up? I don't know Klimmer from an iguana, WHY does someone have to be having a "bromance"? Just want to have a fun OT discussion, as a followup to several that have been posted many times before. Just WHY do you want to get involved? You are welcome if you actually want to contribute, but WHAT is the reason to just try and screw it up with vulgar images?

Do you just have to fuxct stuff up to make yourself feel full of power?


That has not been your pattern in the past, so WHY start now? Doesn't it seem just a little juvenile for an adult? Maybe you can find some greater fun in the bestiality "entertainment" thread.
LithiumMetalman

Trad climber
cesspool central
Apr 30, 2010 - 03:35am PT
the limiting factor to Space travel is the fraility of the human body.

The human body is a marvel of biological engineering (Nature is just a marvel, the efficiency and natural design)

Let's face it, the human body works well here on Earth (relatively well, user's experience may vary), but it blows in Space. We need oxygen, we can't take more than several G forces before going "splat", our brains cannot handle sensory input at extremely high speed forces, and we need to pee.


So, if one was to travel across space: how so?

Just a speculation:

-Reduction in mass and g-force by cancelling out with negative mass and g-force(a theory, read up on Hermann Bondi's work)

-I think this can be achieved if one was to use inertia damping?

-Move space instead of moving the ship

-Change the state of vaccuum within the vaccuum state to travel faster than light, far fetched, but this is a gut feeling.

-Change the vibratory state of known states, realms, planes, to phase?

-Create a biological self-repairing machine that can handle space, and interdimensional shifts (increased robustness of the sensory system)

-Use said above entities as remote cameras or viewers without risking oneself's frailities

-Understand time does not work the exactly same in space as it does on Earth

-ok that was er fun.







LithiumMetalman

Trad climber
cesspool central
Apr 30, 2010 - 03:54am PT
Using an unmanned craft prolly allows for

-reduction in pilot error
-faster & better response time
-ability to perform maneuvers that could kill a pilot
-Stay in space longer than a human

Usage wise? Who knows.

X-37B looks dated.
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
Apr 30, 2010 - 05:42am PT
I agree, it does kinda look like a re-warming of 30 year old tech, doesn't it?

I don't think it can really respond as fast as a human pilot though, the maneuvering link will be through a satellite and a half dozen other links, there will be a delay I should think when the machine is on the far side of the planet. Like when a newscaster talks to a guest in a far off land. But that kind of response is not likely to be real critical.




If you get rid of biologicals entirely, sub-light interstellar flight gets much more possible as you mention. Short hard acceleration is facilitated, and no life support means much smaller payloads. Long duration doesn't get boring to the crew either, no families left behind and so forth.

I have problems believing in interstellar flight that involves creatures unless they are born at the end of the transport phase, as I mention above. And those won't really be a creature of nature, but an engineered lifeform with limited discretion most likely. Kind of a smart monkey with OCD to collect samples. Which might be why we don't make a lot of contacts with them. They weren't raised to make contact, just to cut cows hearts and organs into steaks for the data collectors.

Live fast and die young. If captured, die. If lost, die. If get sick, die. Easily replaceable. And nobody EVER returns home. There is no home. Wrong atmosphere, gravity, whatever. They would die if they were "home", they are bred to wander Earth, just not as natives.
Tomcat

Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
Apr 30, 2010 - 06:36am PT
I MUST have one of those shoulder patches showing the Lunar Module and the Command/ Orbiter with presumably nylon (or perhaps Dyneema?)straps around the "Ark",lifting off.

Must I tell you.
Pate

Trad climber
Apr 30, 2010 - 09:10am PT
LithiumMetal is so obviously you RokTard- you are such a loser!

Hah! After his first post you post congratulating him in less time than it takes to read the rambling moronic post.

When you are known for writing the longest, stupidest, pointless threads you stand out like a sore thumb.

Nice try Wolf Boy.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Why'djya leave the ketchup on the table?
Apr 30, 2010 - 10:51am PT
Ummm, dudes?

Before you start dismissing Klimmer and signing on with Rocky, perhaps you should consider this:

[url]http://www.sacbee.com/2010/04/26/2707159/us-defense-agencys-hypersonic.html[/url]



The hypersonic glider robot thingie disappeared. That's right, they lost it. Last week, it launched from Vandenberg and was promptly lost. Gone.

It just went up, telemetry was 'lost' and it disappeared.

Dept of Defense has been mum on the matter, since.

GONE, I tell you.

Put that in your pipes and smoke it! OK some of you are hard drinkers, its okay if taken neat.

DMT
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland
Apr 30, 2010 - 10:57am PT
Maybe it's on MT Ararat.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
Apr 30, 2010 - 11:23am PT
http://www.flixxy.com/hubble-ultra-deep-field-3d.htm
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 30, 2010 - 11:41am PT
The X-37B is the logical successor to the apparently shuttered 'Aurora' program. Why endanger human lives plus go to the expense of providing potty facilities which we all know was a major oversight on the B-2 program?

From all I've read the X-37 launched successfully and is in orbit and that's all the Air Force is gonna tell us. It could be up there for up to 9 months!
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Why'djya leave the ketchup on the table?
Apr 30, 2010 - 12:03pm PT
Its GONE bro.

DMT
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 30, 2010 - 12:08pm PT
Dingus,
Where'd you see that they lost telemetry? Are you sure Klimmer didn't 'jack it to go find his Ark?
LithiumMetalman

Trad climber
cesspool central
Apr 30, 2010 - 01:09pm PT
Confusing the lost with the HTV-2 glider?

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4601925&c=AME&s=AIR
bmacd

Trad climber
Beautiful, BC
May 1, 2010 - 12:31am PT
apollo 20 hoax debunked here ...

http://apollohoax.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=theories&action=display&thread=1000&page=1

the most obvious flaw being you cannot secretly launch a Apollo class Saturn 5 rocket from anywhere in the United States, particularly from Vandenberg eastward over continental United States. The Stage 1 booster lands in Nevada or Arizona on someones head !!
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 1, 2010 - 01:15am PT
The "answer" to that piece of debunking is in one of the links Klimmer Posted. A member of the crew ( I think) said they didn't drop the early stages until they were quite high, even though that lessened the over all payload possible.

Some other source said some of the equipment was launched from Diego Garcia. That the boosters were not marked also, so that they could be mistaken for a typical Delta launch from a distance.





Hey, it wasn't ME that made that stuff up. Filmed it that is.




Damn Pate, can't fool you. LMM is just another of my secret identities, like Howierd Dean. I am everybody on the Topo except Juan, Ed, Werner and You. But you already knew that by now.
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, California
May 1, 2010 - 01:49am PT
I don't know why so many people don't beliebe in Spaceships.
I'll sell you plans to mine for ONLY 25 Million bucks.

Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
May 1, 2010 - 09:21am PT
Just watched last year's indie sci-fi movie Moon, and thought that was pretty cool.
No massive arks, but the FX are well enough done -- especially when you think about
what they had to show the main characters doing.

Director Duncan Jones says he wanted to make a "grown-up" space film, influenced by
the feel of earlier movies such as Silent Running, Outland, or the first Alien.

I thought he did that pretty well, and also caught some weird spirit of the old Twilight
Zone
scripts.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2010 - 10:45am PT
RetiredAFB and the other Moonwalker1966delta, don't they mention the launch of Apollo 19 and Apollo 20 were at night? And Moonwalker1966delta has posted supposed footage of the Apollo 19 (or Apollo 20?) launch, showing that it was indeed at night.

Officially, there was only one night launch in the Apollo program, and that was Apollo 17. HHhhhhhmmmmmm. Perhaps practice for the clandestine night launches to come?

See this wiki page and scroll to the bottom:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:tVW0JOzNvEgJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_V+Were+any+Apollo+rockets+launched+at+night%3F&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Here is Moonwalker166delta site with the launch of Apollo 19:
http://www.youtube.com/user/moonwalker1966delta#p/a/u/0/L4kSmezXPNo



All we have to do is match the official night launch footage of Apollo 17 to the night launch footage of Apollo 19 or 20 and see if they are one and the same.

Me thinks, maybe they are not exactly the same, which would then indicate the night launch footage that Moonwalker1966delta has posted is something other than Apollo 17 launching. Perhaps it is Apollo 19 (or maybe footage of Apollo 20). Under the cover of night and late at night, you could even launch now from Vandenberg and no one would know except for the noise. Remember, this was back in the mid 70's. Easy to get away with a lot of stuff with no one looking.

Also the footage of the Astronauts getting into the capsule near the launch time. You do see faces and no insignia on the astronauts. Seems someone could press NASA to exactly identify everyone in the image upon boarding and who exactly are all those technicians? When exactly did this event take place? We want the names and identies of all people in the footage. And we want the exact time and location of where this took place.

It is time for some FOIA requests.



Edit:

Also FOIA requests for all the hi-resolution imagery that no doubt the LRO has now taken of the site and region near 18.5 degrees South, and 117.5 degrees East on the Moon. All of it and from different swaths so that the entire site can be viewed in Hi-Res 3D.
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 1, 2010 - 03:09pm PT
Good Luck on That.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 1, 2010 - 03:15pm PT
Even if you had all the evidence to the contrary, you would find some loop whole to justify the conspiracy.
Pate

Trad climber
May 1, 2010 - 03:21pm PT
RokJox can't let anything die, fighting a war on two fronts- it's never worked out for the nations that tried.

(ps, did that lame post up there @ you get axed RJ? at least i refuted it ;) had your back on that one, i'm not totally indecent.)
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 1, 2010 - 03:22pm PT
... and if they found every piece of evidence to prove it happened, without NASA making a press release on it admitting it, and introducing the Moon-a Lisa personally, some people would fail to believe it at all.



For proof of THAT, I ask:

Who Killed Martin Luther King, Jr.?
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 1, 2010 - 03:24pm PT
Pate, I have noticed that you are a mixed bag when it comes to me. Inconsistant. Or appear so, anyway. Not like some at all.

But I can't exactly decipher your last cryptic remark. "Axed" on what???


Two fronts is about my limit without help. I just can't type fast enough to slaughter more than two opponents with brilliance at once.


Thats a joke son, tha-tha-tha thass-a-joke.



It takes TIME to find good illustrations!
Pate

Trad climber
May 1, 2010 - 03:24pm PT
that lame comment @ felons voting
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 1, 2010 - 03:29pm PT
Yes, I saw that. thank-you.


Some people manage to make up the damnedest biographies of me. I got no idea where they get the raw feed to produce that kind of crap.
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
May 1, 2010 - 03:33pm PT
clandestine night launches? Do you reckon they used some kind of cloaking device Klimmer?

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Arid-zona
May 1, 2010 - 03:38pm PT
Klimmer is 7 kinds of awesome.
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 1, 2010 - 03:46pm PT
Many launches at Vandenburg are night launches. Its just that they are smaller rockets. Given the lack of announced times and the difficulty of ascertaining size without a reference point in the sky, and any observer being miles away, it's possible. And it would have taken several launches, over a period of days most likely to achieve a lunar mission. One guy (in the above links Klimmer supplied) says some support launches were made in Russia, and some from Diego Garcia perhaps.

Do you guys actually READ any of those links before spouting off on how impossible this all is? Apparently not, you are all spewing stuff that the answers have already been supplied in the material offered. Shows a lack of analytical skills, not an excess of them.

Its difficult to say which launch might have been made from which base. You could have launched the LM from Russia, its the biggest vehicle, and it could have been on a Russian heavy lift booster. They could always throw far more weight than we EVER could.
The other modules are much smaller and could have been disguised as a series of Delta launches.

You have not eliminated the possibilities with your complaint that it would have been difficult. We did difficult things all the time. Just like its hard to say just how many Saturn Fives were actually built. The military could have very likely paid for a few extra assemblies out of its black budget, and they DO have a tendency to love having hidden capacities that are unknown to the rest of the world. It's not much of a stretch to think they may have wanted a few of the West's largest lifters for secret military payloads.

There are some pretty strong rumors that the US lifted a couple guided missile platforms into high orbit. those would have been very heavy of themselves, and needed it be placed in a very high orbit, so they could be tossed into the sun or deep space in an emergency or when operational life was over. You couldn't risk having nukes getting "burned up" in the atmosphere. It wouldn't happen that way. You'd have highly radioactive chunks fall almost anywhere.


And there is an almost certain story of ONE of the nuke platforms actually reaching deep orbit. I recall it being reported as a "wooden mockup" of the real thing, despite there being a treaty against their being orbited. (Why would the US launch a "wooden mockup"? Kinda spendy, eh?)
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 1, 2010 - 04:34pm PT
You're basing your arguments on grainy youtube videos from sources we know nothing about. I've never heard these names before and Im sure there is more to their background than they let on. They make claims that are so patently unprovable that it brings into questions their objectivity. But thats what allows you to continue making claims like Arcs on the Moon, because none of these hypotheses can be disproven.
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 1, 2010 - 04:38pm PT
Actually it would not be too hard to disprove, if the NASA archives would do what Klimmer suggests. Just open their photo files, without reducing their image quality or blurring or falsifying the images. the newest archives should be pretty interesting. Just what is it that lays sideways on the ground, yet possesses enough structural integrity to appear to have clearance under it and is about an eighth mile long of free hanging tubular material? (It seems to cast a shadow.)

Rocks don't generally do that kind of stuff, forming thousands of foot long tubes with sufficient strength to resist breaking and falling down. Not even on the moon.

The whole point is that the "ark" is large enough to image from space satellites.

It was what they did for the Martian Face.

If there was a manned mission using 70's technology, you might even be able to see the descent module sitting nearby. If there is no descent module, there likely was no mission. If there is no colossal obelisk lying on its side, there is no spacecraft.

Pretty f*#king simple to disprove if you ask me.

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 1, 2010 - 04:47pm PT
Just what is it that lays sideways on the ground, yet possesses enough structural integrity to appear to have clearance under it and is about an eighth mile long of free hanging tubular material?
A giant fossilized alien turd?
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 1, 2010 - 04:50pm PT
If that is a coprolite, it should be studied.


Why...

Gazing at the night sky some days ago. I could not help thinking how this very sky looked to our remotest ancestors in the far far past. To them, the sky was not just an inspiration, a source of beauty and mystery. It was also a cradle of terror and fear... ear-splitting noises came from the sky, like iron-clad chariot wheels rolling over cobble stones... fire was hurled from the sky, incinerating huts and trees and fields and killing men and beasts... torrents of water came from the sky and hail and cold, cold snow that blanketed the good earth and froze one's feet. And the cruel tornado, with its feet on the ground and it's head in the clouds, a creature of malice and terror that caused destruction and death wherever it went. And during the day the dazzling Sun-God rode across the havens and none were permitted to gaze at his face. Those who did were struck with blindness.

Gods dwelled in the sky, jealous, terrible Gods. And to earn the Gods favor, men brought them gifts and sacrifices.

Presently, we know much more about the sky and a little of the void beyond. We know about the lightning and the thunder, the rain and the snow and most other "natural" phenomena, so the sky holds no terror for us. But the sense of awe and mystery remains. And the biggest mystery of them all is still as enigmatic as it ever was. Are we alone ???

Are we alone in this endless, bottomless vastness ?? Or are we not. Is there life on other worlds, other planets??

We speculate, we guess, we assume... but we do not know.

Vast arrays of sensitive tele-dishes stand in perpetual vigilance on our planet, in the hope of detecting an intelligent broadcast from someplace else. But so far, there is nothing. Even Carl Sagan's "Contact" is still just a beautiful, romantic story, a dream. Just a dream. But even in this tale of fiction there is a disturbing element. The official insistence on concealment, distortion, falsification.

We do not know.

Now there is a controversy. An allegedly ancient wrecked spaceship on the far side of the moon. A spaceship not of human origin. Broken, pitted with meteor craters, it lies there in the dust of eons.

In NASA (Apollo 15) photos it appears as a tiny, slender cigar, it’s length is about the same as of a crater approximately above it.


Now, is it indeed an ancient spaceship or is it not?? We cannot just walk over and take a look at it. NASA can, but we cannot. But from NASA there is no word, nor from any other official body whatsoever.

And from this silence, legends grow.

Needless to say that if this is indeed a derelict space vehicle, that would be epochal news, the greatest ever. What better proof of other life on other distant planets can there be than the presence of a strange ship right in our own back yard.

There is a story about a secret mission to the moon, the Apollo 20, a US and Soviet mission. There is the testimony of one W. Rutledge, allegedly an astronaut on this mission.

Was there such a mission ?? How credible is the testimony of W. Rutledge ?? And why is there no confirmation from any of the Russian crew that must have been there, too.

Whatever the truth is, the most difficult part to understand is the official silence. Why this silence?? What is there to hide ??

If all of this is just fantasy, why not say so... or whatever the truth might be, why not disclose it ??

What is there to conceal ?? Why not shed some light on the mystery, the guesswork, the speculations??

The silence is deafening...


http://www.ramistrip.com/000%20web%20pages/880aba.html
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2010 - 07:37pm PT
Here is official NASA footage from the Apollo 17 launch . . .

Launch of Apollo 17 (TV Feed and NASA Footage). This is the only "official" night launch of an Apollo mission:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmwc8E9fCLI



See this wiki page and scroll to the bottom. It verifies Apollo 17 was the only night launch:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:tVW0JOzNvEgJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_V+Were+any+Apollo+rockets+launched+at+night%3F&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us





Compare and contrast that with the night launch of "Apollo 19" posted by Moonwalker1966delta:
http://www.youtube.com/user/moonwalker1966delta#p/a/u/0/L4kSmezXPNo




Clearly the 2 are very different in so many ways. Assuming nothing is faked:

1) the towers are different color.
2) the towers are different in construction.
3) the markings on these Saturn V rockets are different.
4) the artificial lighting on both rockets is different.


These seem to be different launches. NASA only admits to one official Saturn V night launch and that is with Apollo 17. Obviously there was more than one Saturn V night launch.

The question is why, when only one is admitted to?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 1, 2010 - 07:48pm PT
The question is why, when only one is admitted to?

Simple, they didn't want to pay overtime.
Pate

Trad climber
May 1, 2010 - 09:55pm PT
More pictures and diagrams to prove complete idiocy.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2010 - 10:14pm PT
Remember, substance and not weak minded knee-jerk attacks.

Diesel_Smoke

Big Wall climber
May 1, 2010 - 10:19pm PT
"See this wiki page and scroll to the bottom. It verifies Apollo 17 was the only night launch:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:tVW0JOzNvEgJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_V+Were+any+Apollo+rockets+launched+at+night%3F&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us "

The authoritative source is wikipedia?

The problem with wikipedia is virtually anyone can edit wikipedia... Although I'm not implying or inferring any quack or delusional individual would ever publish inaccurate information that may or may not corroborate a conspiracy theory, or alternatively, that any reasonable individual would ever solely base any theory on Wikipedia’s citation.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2010 - 10:41pm PT
Another thing to do is to look at every Ingress Room image of the Astronauts loading onto the Apollo Saturn V rockets for each of the missions Apollo 4 - Apollo 17 and identify them, and post them in the order according to the Apollo mission number.

Then carefully compare them to the Ingress Room images and video posted by RetiredAFB of Apollo 20. Do any of the Ingress Room images from any of the public known official Apollo missions match what was posted as Apollo 20?

If they do not, then that is evidence the images are not of Apollo 4 - Apollo 17, but of some "other" unidentified mission.

This would be more evidence in the Apollo 20 camp. Pretty hard to fake Ingress Room images and real video of said event. How does one go about faking something like that without a massive Hollywood budget?

From the youtube video compilation of RetiredAFB original videos by Ramistrip.com:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZZWDpICa_U&feature=player_embedded



Ingress Room Image from Apollo 10 mission:





Ingress Room Image from Apoll 12 mission:






Ingress Room Images from the Apollo 20 mission. Do any other official NASA Apollo missions exactly match this Ingress Room look, the 3 technicians (one NASA and 2 from Rockwell International) and the 2 Astronauts loading? If not then this is indication that these images and video are not from any official Apollo mission. This would be more evidence in support of Apollo 20:








We also have 3 names:

Commander William Rutledge

Astronaut Leona Marietta Synder

Cosmonaut Alexey Arkhipovich Leonov
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexey_Leonov



We also have a Apollo 20 Mission Patch:

Chief

climber
May 1, 2010 - 10:45pm PT
Very interesting post.
Even more interesting responses.

With the advent of digital editing, still images, especially grainy ones from the moon can no longer stand alone as conclusive evidence of anything. Having said that, Klimmer's suggestion is no more outlandish than many shaky theories accepted by humans.

The world is flat.
Mary was impregnated by god and experienced an immaculate conception and virgin birth.
The devil made me do it.
The sinking of the Lusitania was unprovoked.
Pearl Harbor was a surprise attack.
NV patrol boats carried out torpedo attacks on the Maddux in the Tonkin.
Men in caves shut down US air defenses and brought down the Towers with hijacked airplanes.
Tower Seven.
The Iraqi's were building weapons of mass destruction.
Unregulated free market economies are good for us.

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2010 - 10:46pm PT
DS,

The fact that Apollo 17 is the only official night time Apollo launch is easily verified or debunked. I looked. Yes, Wikipedia sometimes gives out bad data but it can easily be cross-referenced and verified with other sources.
Diesel_Smoke

Big Wall climber
May 1, 2010 - 11:01pm PT
Well, if your source is as solid as the bible I'll believe you - Conspiracy!

What is your anticipated course of action? Have you considered limiting your audience, perhaps initially confined to ST for the preservation of your identity and life? These issues are dangerous, and proper protocols must exist to ensure your safety! I've seen the movie Conspiracy Theory and I'm well versed in paranormal activity and small weapons combat (primarily nunchaku and crossbow) . If you are needing a partner or confidant, here is my video application: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQYSTWVeApI
The user formerly known as stzzo

climber
Sneaking up behind you
May 1, 2010 - 11:13pm PT
193 posts and no references to the bible code???

I'm very disappointed.
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 1, 2010 - 11:23pm PT
Wiki's best feature is its availability. that anyone can sign on as a USER and edit, means that anytime someone tries to fake up stuff, the readers can object. Professional editors also ask for verifications and edits of certain entries also.

A couple years ago, when a political campaign tried to fake up some info against a competing politician, it was discovered pretty fast, and the changes were traced back to the offending parties.

Its not as easy to become a poster on wiki now as a result. Its not like Supertopo where any idiot can claim to be an expert climber and post all kinds of bull.
bmacd

Trad climber
Beautiful, BC
May 1, 2010 - 11:24pm PT
nothing photographic, or video in nature can be considered evidence in the 21st century

you need a body and DNA test results
Pate

Trad climber
May 1, 2010 - 11:32pm PT
When does your acid generally start to wear off?
WandaFuca

Social climber
From the gettin place
May 1, 2010 - 11:48pm PT
I'm pretty well read. I enjoy a good story. With fiction, be it movies or books, you have to suspend your disbelief.

But for many people, that which allows them to enjoy fiction, is also that which allows them to believe the lies of politicians, conspiracy theories, and religion.

When a narrative makes a claim to truth or factuality you need to suspend your belief.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2010 - 11:55pm PT
bmacd,

Really? Wow, then you know nothing of the intelligence, remote sensing, and scientific world.


From video posted by RetiredAFB:
http://www.revver.com/video/797542/apollo-20-ebe-mona-lisa-tv-unscheduled-transmission/


I think the following image of the Astronaut/Cosmonaut is of Alexey Leonov, and not Cmd William Rutledge of the supposed Apollo 20 mission from within the LM on the surface of the Moon:




Here is an official image of Alexey Leonov near that period of time:




Notice the balding head, the long straight bridge nose, the mouth, and the deep facial lines on either side of the nose outlining the cheeks. I think it is Alexey. And in reduced gravity environments of 1.63m/s^2 acceleration due to the Moon's reduced gravity, compared to 9.8m/s^2 acceleration here on Earth, facial features will distort a little.

It is Alexey or they found a look-alike actor to fake this video.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2010 - 12:21am PT
I will do a thorough facial analysis soon with ratios of both images on Alexey. The ratios of certain facial features of the actual known image of Alexey and the one from Apollo 20 on the surface of the Moon. My hypothesis is that facial ratios will be exactly the same. Identical.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 2, 2010 - 12:21am PT
OK. Who is retiredAFB? Who are his colleagues? What is his background? Is he objective? What is his reputation? What is his agenda (everyone has one)? A large number of your theories are based in his videos. Have you applied the same criticism to him as you have NASA?

These hypotheses your've presented are outlandish. Any life form would need to travel maybe a million times the speed of light to move through the universe. And that technology is in the form of an Arc? like the one Noah built? Seems unlikely to me

I hope you can understand my skepticism. And Im not saying I cant be convinced. Its just what you provide as "evidence" is highly dubious.
WandaFuca

Social climber
From the gettin place
May 2, 2010 - 12:24am PT

I will do a thorough facial analysis soon with ratios of both images on Alexey. The ratios of certain facial features of the actual known image of Alexey and the one from Apollo 20 on the surface of the Moon. My hypothesis is that facial ratios will be exactly the same. Identical.



Duuuuuude . . .
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2010 - 12:32am PT
Proving something massive is there on the Moon is the easy part, if NASA cooperates, proving it's origin is another.

We don't have to prove that to begin with, although if Apollo 20 did indeed happen, then NASA has a major scoop on that info (of course).

Obviously, if something massive is there then it came from somewhere. Yes? I agree that that is hard to fathom. But reality is, regardless of our preconceived limited scientific understandings.

I've already stated my hypothesis regarding its origin.
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
May 2, 2010 - 12:33am PT
"Any life form would need to travel maybe a million times the speed of light to move through the universe."--Port




It would depend on how far away from Earth they started from, if you want to use the technology available to us today.

Your statement's exaggeration shows through as ignorance--not meaning to offend here, just pointing out the weakness in the sentence proffering...
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2010 - 12:36am PT
Wanda,

You do realize that facial features and their distances and these ratios are unique identifiers don't you?

Photogrammetry can be done on the human face and it works very well for identification purposes. It's empirical. It's reproduceable. It's science.
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 2, 2010 - 12:59am PT
Port:


Nobody said at all where it came from. It may be from Nevada for all we know. Nobody has suggested how long it took, what the tech is or anything.

If you had read any of the LINKS, you would know that Retiredafb is WS. Purportedly the commander of one of the Apollo missions that are in dispute.

There are 10 hours of data that clearly you have not read at all. I suggest you at least view the videos, they are for people who can't take time to read. They are quite a hoot.

You HAVE to see the Moona Lisa!

Warning, a couple of the videos purported to be of the various episodes have been shown to be fakes, most notably anything relating to the "city".








For fun, I re-loaded the latest Version of Google Earth, then switched to Google Moon, and located the coordinates of the site, and maneuvered over to the site and blew it up. Then I rotated it to match the photos in the material.

Google Earth says that they are using the high resolution photos from the 1960's satellite surveys, so its not as clear or new as anything newer. You HAVE to be sure to change from the standard setting (visible features) to the "Lunar Orbiter Mosaic" under "global maps" in the "Layers" window at the left of the screen.

But as I study the images there, they clearly show an object or ridgeline at the location of the other images. And there does seem to be a shadow from the "forward" edge of the feature. It is not clear enough to see any features, and it doesn't quite look the same ... not quite as straight of lines for instance. But that could be the image blurring, or it could be the same image, and I have it rotated a little funny.

But I can say that it is the only object on the moon pictures that I have seen that looks anything like it. No other crater has a feature coming out of it like that. It is certainly something that developed after the crater was formed, it completely changes the character of the crater or depression it lies in. The triangular features (described as other craft) nearby also seem to be visible, though they have no sub-features.

Better data on location seems to be S18.75 E117.75 (in decimal degrees) I have also doubled the vertical exaggeration, the program seems to place it between 5000 and 6100 hundred feet in elevation with the crater floor maybe being at around 4700 feet. I don't know how it figures that. It jumps around a bunch.

And I can't seem to find out just what satellite survey this particular image is based on. The legend shows many satellites from 195-something Russian jobs to fairly new stuff, like Japanese, Chinese and the US LCROSS stuff from 2009..

Very fun.
LithiumMetalman

Trad climber
cesspool central
May 2, 2010 - 01:43am PT
This thread is still going?

Wow.

Rock on!
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
May 2, 2010 - 01:47am PT
They are not ready.
LithiumMetalman

Trad climber
cesspool central
May 2, 2010 - 01:51am PT
“For it is a land of illusion, a place in the mind, a shimmering mirage of riches and mystery and death. These illusions have distorted its landscape and contorted its history.”

Richard E. Lingenfilter.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
May 2, 2010 - 02:02am PT
We come in peace.


Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 2, 2010 - 02:02am PT
When you have pictures of an actual space craft ( not blurry black and white photos or computer renditions) Ill believe. And I did watch the posted videos. They're hardly objective.

I think the real reason you all love this stuff is that it makes you feel smarter and more enlightened than the general public. You don't realize it but you've created your own little science fiction world in which you play a leading role as an investigator. It scares me. Seriously.
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 2, 2010 - 02:08am PT
Not that anybody cares what you believe, or why;

but what do you call the pictures they are offering, if not pictures of an actual spacecraft?

It IS a spacecraft they are selling. What else would qualify in your opinion?


You mean you want full color motion pictures and diagrams with pointers and arrows and Obama standing there saying "This is a spacecraft?"

Sounds like Alice's Restaurant isn't good enough.




I am amused by this, and have no pretensions that I developed anything. I am just reading the script.

Of course, I HAVE met the general public, and they ain't got a lot on the ball, but I suppose that is open to interpretation as to exactly just what you mean.

Do you mean the general public that watches John Stophel, Larry King, Ugly Americans and dreams of Werewolves and Vampires fighting over pretty girls? Or the general public that watches Glenn Beck, gets their news from Fox and believes in Republican "family values?

Is that the general public that thinks we are saving Iraq for purposes of democracy and starting a new world in the middle east?




... well, I admit it, ... I DO think I AM smarter than the general public. But its not because I believe in spaceships on the blind side of the moon.




What do YOU do for amusement?
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 2, 2010 - 02:13am PT
mojede, Im not exaggerating. I said Universe, not galaxy or solar system. It would take 13 billion light years to cross our universe. Maybe they are closer, but I doubt it. Theres really no way to know.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
May 2, 2010 - 02:20am PT
Send toiet paper?
Flush the moon?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 2, 2010 - 02:20am PT
There's not only an ark on the far side of the Moon, but the Martians love us.
Credit: Mars Global Explorer/NASA
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=11874
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 2, 2010 - 02:21am PT
Where has anybody said that "they crossed the universe"?

Could have been Brooklyn for all I have seen anybody say.


Even Stephen Hawking think Aliens of some kind gotta be closer than that.



Just what makes you doubt that "they" are no closer than 13 billion light years? This has got to be good.


You ever see the Hubble deep field South photos? There is a LOT of stuff closer than that.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 2, 2010 - 02:24am PT


People say they see Jesus in this tree. I see tree bark.
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 2, 2010 - 02:25am PT
Care to retreat from seeing Jesus long enough to answer my last question?


Or even the last three or four?

Like what kind of evidence would you like to see of such an unlikely event? Giant ants burrowing under a giant spaceship floating over Capetown?

I am holding my breath in anticipation.


Watusi

Social climber
Newport, OR
May 2, 2010 - 02:28am PT
Russ says they've located these creatures on earth...

I think they are more like this, myself...
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 2, 2010 - 02:29am PT
"they" could be closer, youre right. But to move efficient through space they would need to travel at light speed no? Even the closest planets with stars in their systems are 15 lights years away.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 2, 2010 - 02:32am PT
And Yes. I would need to see them. So until then this is a pretty stupid discussion. Good luck finding this spaceship on the moon. peace.
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 2, 2010 - 02:32am PT
Port: ... so move efficient through space they would need to travel at light speed no? Even the closest planets with stars in their systems are 15 lights years away.


No. I listed several methods to send a contact between worlds, and I never made mention of lightspeed drives of any sort. Although a close effort would mean that relativistic effects would make the trip seem much shorter to any passengers. But passengers is unlikely to the extreme. Who would want to go? Food, air, space to wander, boredom, no possibility of return, all of everything works against passengers, unless the ship IS the passenger.

My best thought would be a slow small craft, with a computer that would craft bio-engineered life forms for special purposes once it got to where ever it was going. Make them out of local materials with DNA patterns stored in the memory of the craft. Small, stupid and run mostly by instinct, they would just do as they were built, then die after returning samples and data to the autonomous craft, that would signal its results back to what ever had sent it, wherever.

Something like flying insects that could home in on a lifeform (presumably Earth life) to study, I.E., bite it, to take a sample of blood and flesh, then fly back to the automated science lab on the spaceship. That would be my favorite idea ... who cares how long it might take. If your Alien civilization is advanced, it would likely have solved the short lifespan problem. Something that lives for 500 years in a pond back home might not think waiting 1000 years is such a stretch to get the information they want from a blue marble they happened to notice 50 light years away.

You have not read a lot of this thread.


(And 15 years is a brief time for some things. Although I think there are several stars much closer than that. But anything even 70% light's speed is likely unsustainable.)


I don't understand where you are getting your presumptions. Star Trek re-runs?



Why would they have had to cross interstellar space at all? There are other possibilities, according to some people. Ever read Stichen?

How about Earth? Its close by and a lot could have happened in 1.5 million years ...

... maybe they was FROM the moon ... and trying to leave?

... or the future. All it takes to move back in time is a LOT of energy... One way trip, but so what?

...or there are places in this solar system ...

Nibiru? Hell, I got no idea, I was just looking at pictures of funny shaped rocks. I can't tell where they come from until after I see if they is real ...


... Moona Lisa is hot though ... I'd go a long way to bump into her ...








(Hey, its not ME making this stuff up. I'm just playing with it.)
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 2, 2010 - 03:24am PT
This guy is your primary source? Or are these lies told to hide the REAL truth.
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/User:Moby-Dick4000/Apollo_20_hoax

The Apollo 20 hoax is a story told in a series of YouTube videos of a phony manned lunar mission whose purpose was to retrieve ancient alien artifacts from the moon. Thierry Speth, a French video artist, claimed to be the perpetrator of the hoax on 9 July 2007 on Need2Know.eu, an internet bulletin board.[1] However, no news organization has ever attempted to verify Speth's claim. The videos have drawn over 200,000 views since their appearance on YouTube.

In April, 2007 a series of videos began appearing on YouTube under the username retiredafb telling the story of Apollo 20.[2] Then on 25 March 2007, Italian ufologist Luca Scantanburlo interviewed somebody who identified himself as William Rutledge who claimed to be the commander of the Apollo 20 crew. Rutledge also claimed to be the account owner of retiredafb. However, Scantanburlo never met Rutledge in person because he conducted the interview over Yahoo! Messenger .[3]
During the interview, Rutledge claimed Apollo 20 was a top-secret mission launched in mid August of 1976 from Vandenberg Air Force Base in Santa Barbara, California and conducted jointly by the United States and the former Soviet Union. He said the other mission members were American Leona Snyder (an apparently fictitious person) and former Soviet cosmonaut Aleksei Leonov, the first human being to walk in space. The purported lunar landing site of the mission was near Delporte crater on the far side of the moon. Rutledge said the videos show that he and Leonov discovered the remains of an ancient lunar civilization.[4][5] He also said they brought back artifacts to earth for study, including a hibernating female alien.
Four months later, video artist Speth claimed responsibility for the hoax and explained that the entire story was fabricated.
[edit]YouTube videos

The hoaxer began posting the videos on April Fool's Day, a hint that the story was nothing more than an elaborate prank. He/she has since moved most of the videos to Revver.com under the same username (retiredafb).[6] However, others are scattered throughout YouTube posted by several account users, thereby making it difficult to determine the true identity of the hoaxer. Each continues to draw thousands of views.
Despite the realistic appearance of the videos, amateurs have easily debunked them on YouTube and elsewhere on the internet.[citation needed]
The videos are short, each only lasting a couple of minutes. If viewed in their intended sequence, they tell a partial story of the mission, starting with astronauts boarding Apollo 20 and ending with the extraordinary "discoveries" on the moon. They include the following images:
Ruins of an alien spacecraft
Ruins of an alien city [7]
The body of a hibernating female alien [8]
Apollo 20 flight plans and mission patches
The launch of Apollo 20
William Rutledge walking on the moon [9]
[edit]The truth behind the hoax

Like many hoaxes, this story is a mixture of facts and fiction. The starting point for it are photos that Apollo 15 astronauts took while in lunar orbit. The photos show what look like a cigar-shaped object resting in a crater. The hoaxer used these photos to create the image of pock-marked alien spacecraft on the moon. The NASA photos are real.[10] However, NASA never claimed they include images of alien spacecraft. The object in question is nothing more than a natural part of the lunar terrain.
In truth, Apollo 20 was a mission that never got off the ground -- literally. It was one of three lunar missions NASA cancelled due to lack of funding along with Apollos 18 and 19. The last NASA lunar mission was Apollo 17, launched in 1972. The next Apollo mission was the Apollo-Soyuz Test Project coordinated by the United States and the former Soviet Union in 1975. However, its mission was to remain in low earth orbit and to dock with a Soviet Soyuz spacecraft, something it accomplished successfully. Some mistakenly refer to that mission as Apollo 18.
Some of the stages for the Saturn V rockets intended for NASA’s three cancelled lunar missions had already been constructed before their cancellation. According to the hoaxer's story, these were all used on lunar missions for Apollos 18, 19 and 20. In reality NASA used one of these to launch Skylab into orbit in 1973. The others are on display at three American space centers: the John F. Kennedy Space Center near Cape Canaveral, Florida; the Johnson Space Center in Houston, Texas and the United States Space & Rocket Center in Huntsville, Alabama.
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 2, 2010 - 03:33am PT
There you go, NOW you are contributing!


Very cool.



You have done pretty good on some of the other silly science threads. When you do it this way you make something for me to kill time with. Words in a row. Content.

Thanks Colin.







This place used to roll faster late nights than it does now... Got to get more words ...
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 2, 2010 - 05:06am PT
I have been trying to verify the debunking, starting with the Wiki article, and the debunking is at least as difficult as the original alien videos. The main reference of Thierry Speth claiming its a fraud is gone, and I can't find it yet anywhere. I google his name, and I got a bunch of links, but they are all about how his name is associated with the story as the creator of the fraud, but nowhere yet have I found a real link to him or his statement he is a producer of the fraud.


But the debunking is at least as awkward as the original story of aliens. I swear, the links do less to prove that some guy named Speth did the videos than the videos do to prove the Moony Lisa exists. Lots of guys on forums TALKING about debunking the vids but damn little actual debunking. No photolabs, no real information of the guy, no smoking guns as it were.

Its three fifteen now, and I am going to try and get some sleep, and I will continue reading on this when I next need words to pass the time.


it will be fun chasiing the will o' the wisp. Passes time.


Thanks Port.
Timid TopRope

Social climber
Paradise, CA
May 2, 2010 - 10:30am PT
Everyone knows the moon is made of cheese. Therefore a ship that landed on the moon would get moldy very fast so not likely to be a ship.

The only other theory that I believe to be absolutely and irrefutably true is that the concept of the moon is a total lie. It is a night fairy to help us see at night when the sun fairy is sleeping.

The night fairy called the moon is much too small to have anything other than maybe a flea on it. Just use your common sense next time you look up at this "supposed" moon and you can see it is not much bigger than your fingernail. And some nights it is not there at all because it needs to sleep just like you and me.

I keep correcting moon entries on Wiki to explain this but some others that think they know better keep putting in their own gobbly-gook and change it back.

Therefore, I beseech those on ST to suspend their false theories and accept mine, the only truth to be told.

Again, it is impossible to have these moon conspiracies as there is no moon, but only a lie you have been fed since a child.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2010 - 12:28pm PT
Rokjox,

Thanks for mentioning updating Google Earth. I did so also recently and didn't realize that they have included better resolution base imagery from Lunar Orbiter Mosaic for the Moon. Very cool. All I had to do was click on the radio button and voila!

Although with the newest LRO imagery posted and available we wouldn't be doing this. Everyone would know the truth then.

So I re-did my work and now it is much improved with better lat./long. and it is now possible to kinda measure the craft on the better imagery, although it is still very pixelated and blurred.














One thing people need to realize, there are indeed faked videos within this story. Anyone who has been following this story since April of 2007 knows this. The thing is, there is real, mixed with fake. It takes time to sort through it all.

This is classic COINTELPRO and our government has a really long established track record, and long time experience at doing this sort of thing. Mix real with fake, then you have plausible deniability, can denie it, yet at the same time let real info get through. This works to debunk the story within most people's mind. If some of it is faked then they can buy into it all being faked. Voila! story debunked. But not so fast. It also serves in allowing a story to stew and simmer for a long, long time, allowing people to get used to the idea over long periods of time, depressing the shock value.

I have no doubt that the massive object is there, and it is intelligently designed. Did they land and go over and retrieve an alien? I don't know about that. I do believe at the least, that NASA Apollo missions flew over for a closer look at a minimum. This maybe is all that Apollo 20 did. It could be they never landed. Wanted to, but didn't. The alien footage maybe a very elaborate hoax. A what if we did, what would we have found?

I try to stick with the imagery that looks real and can be verified and measured against what we know is real. Photogrammetry can be done with all images and there are cross-referencing techniques that we can do to know and verify if the imagery is real, or faked with bad clay models or digital fakes.

It is much harder faking imagery within the Ingress Room of the Apollo Missions, within the LM, real human faces, and real imagery from NASA Apollo missions, that have indeed taken many images of the site on the farside of the Moon.

It will take time to sort through and really cross reference, and validate all the good imagery using techniques of photogrammetry. What needs to be done is to cross reference all the really good flyover imagery that appears real in all of its form, to those images that we know are real and officially from NASA. Photogrammetry can do this. It takes time and patience, but it can be done. The stuff that looks like clay modelling is clay modelling. I don't even consider that.

Even the best faked modelling, and faked imagery can not be done so well as to mimic exactly all the measurements that can be done and the ratios measured and compared between suspect imagery and real authentic imagery. That is why careful, precise photogrammetry works.

And like I said, photogrammetry can also be done with the human face to help verify the identity of someone.
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
May 2, 2010 - 12:34pm PT
this is really unbelievable.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2010 - 01:29pm PT
COINTELPRO has never stopped. All US government agencies into spying and intelligence probably have there own programs: FBI, CIA, DOD, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO

On Wikileaks not too long ago you could look at and download the entire DOD FM Manual on COINTELPRO used within Special Forces. That manual is probably still up for browsing and download. Read it and your eyes will be opened. Just how far do you think our government is willing to go to fake things?

Read it and weep for our country.

Wikileaks: U.S. Special Forces Counter-Insurgency Manual FM 31-20-3
June 16th, 2008
http://cryptogon.com/?p=2751

In the above article there is a link to the original FM document at Wikileaks . . .


Wikileaks is still in fund raising mode, so they are not posting their searchable archive.



Here is a link that will work:

http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4246204/US_Special_Forces_counter-insurgency_manual_FM_31-20-3
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
May 2, 2010 - 02:41pm PT
Haha, any evidence debunking a conspiracy is considered countelpro.

Who can argue with that?

Keeping chewing your 'mental gum' Klimmer, that's all it is.

But you might consider spitting it out, instead of swallowing whole.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
May 2, 2010 - 03:06pm PT
If you believe in Angels, aren't they just a high vibration alien?

Physics travel restrictions on beings on different dimensions are probably different. Do they charge for carry on luggage?

We make so many assumptions about things that are far out of league of understanding. We don't know what our next major technological shifts and breakthroughs are going to be, much less for folks who have may have had advanced civilization for millions of years, not just 10,000.

Like Seti. What make them think aliens would be using radiowaves to communicate?

Peace

Karl
Pate

Trad climber
May 2, 2010 - 03:14pm PT
Everyone knows what anal probes are for and how aliens communicate.
Credit: Pate
Credit: Pate
Credit: Pate
weschrist

Gym climber
left sac
May 2, 2010 - 04:43pm PT
I still can't believe Klimmer is a teacher.

Imagination my ass, this is flat out coo-coo for Christian nuts. What's the difference you ask? Imagination takes real-life observations and extrapolates into the realm of the unbelievable... never insisting that horses could actually have wings and talk.

Mentally insane conspiracy theorists take religious myths and extrapolate them to include aliens, ocean vessels on the moon, and government cover ups.

My guess is the poster "Klimmer" is actually a smart (for high school) kid who is pretending to be his dorky teacher and trolling ST.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 2, 2010 - 04:57pm PT
Wasn't Klimmer supposed to be at the Woodsonfest? Was he sighted there, and did anyone get a photo? Has anyone here met Klimmer, besides maybe Weld_It?
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 2, 2010 - 05:25pm PT
Later tonight, I will discuss the Red Queen's challenge, Muldars Quandry, the exercise of being Red in war games, and how which side you get in a debate frames how you form your arguments.

Some people on this thread have no idea why and how certain things are done the way they are. Have some FUN with this, you will seldom see a topic so non-threatening.


Right now you should watch me work a hoe in the garden!
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
May 2, 2010 - 06:15pm PT
Hoes before bros:-)
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2010 - 06:58pm PT
Clinton White House Chief John Podesta on UFO disclosure
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2Sz-MgoFos

Steven Spielberg on UFO's and Jimmy Carter 1977
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9TY6yg4ejM&feature=related

Ex President Jimmy Carter UFO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrJeBCi47ME&feature=related

Ray-Gun's ALIEN speech to UN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag44dRO8LEA&feature=related

Ufo Disclosure Edgar Mitchell CNN Obama Administration April 21 2009
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4x-EGrMW_I&feature=related

Ex Astronaut Says Feds 'Know' UFOs Exist 21.4.2009
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlOZtfy0MwY&feature=related

Astronaut Gordon Cooper Talks About UFOs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvPR8T1o3Dc&feature=related

NASA Gordon Cooper UFOs are visiting the Earth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkBhME9RCjc&feature=related

Astronaut Buzz Aldrin Recounts Apollo 11 UFO Encounter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlkV1ybBnHI&feature=related

Buzz Aldrin Reveals Existence of Monolith on Mars Moon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDIXvpjnRws&feature=related

U.F.O DISCLOSURE PROJECT -FULL VERSION
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vyVe-6YdUk&feature=related

Clinton's (UFO) Speech in Hong Kong 14 Sep 2005
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3F3CXspsuo&feature=related

The Vatican's Take on Aliens?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gB7QhHcYIE&NR=1&feature=fvwp

YouTube - Michio Kaku On Aliens On Physics ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw8dcb8iKSM&feature=related


UFO Contact - Former Canadian Defence Minister
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGyFWyNuF3s&feature=related




C'mon guys. You naysayers need to get caught up. Many are way ahead of you.



Pull your heads out of the ground and take a look around.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
May 2, 2010 - 07:25pm PT
"I still can't believe Klimmer is a teacher."

You must not be familiar with the way things work in California.
bmacd

Trad climber
Beautiful, BC
May 2, 2010 - 07:44pm PT
The Motivation for hoaxing videos on Youtube is a program called Adsense revenue sharing by Google. I think it's what Chris uses on Supertopo.

With the kind of view numbers these UFO/Ark Apollo 20 conspiracy videos generate it would be quite lucrative.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 2, 2010 - 07:47pm PT
Which would prove that there really is one born every minute...

Anyway, what if the ark came to earth at the Arking Plot in Camp 4?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2010 - 07:48pm PT
I feel really sorry for you guys.

It must be scarry in your little narrow naive private sheltered worlds.

No substance just ridicule. The definative evidence of a small mind.
WandaFuca

Social climber
From the gettin place
May 2, 2010 - 08:03pm PT
I feel really sorry for you guys.

It must be scarry in your little narrow naive private sheltered worlds.

No substance just ridicule. The definative evidence of a small mind.


It must be exciting in your upside-down world of gullibility, where the most fantastic and outrageously improbable explanations appear to be the most credible and reasonable.

What's next, Venusian Leprechauns?
Pate

Trad climber
May 2, 2010 - 08:18pm PT
"I feel really sorry for you guys"

There you go Klimmer, that's it in a nutshell. Your condescending attitude is what gets you the replies you get in the tones you don't like.

Take that condescending attitude and use it for a self administered anal probe.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
May 2, 2010 - 08:18pm PT
Weschrist- That was so well said it made me feel good again. Thanks.

How does a teacher spell so poorly? Isn't he supposed to have a higher standard to hold himself to?

I do wonder now if he ain't a troll. Talk about being had as a possibility!


Mighty Hiker wrote-
"Wasn't Klimmer supposed to be at the Woodsonfest? Was he sighted there, and did anyone get a photo? Has anyone here met Klimmer..."

Anyone?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 2, 2010 - 08:19pm PT
Hey, I got the word "plot" in my last post. What more do you want?
L0CKER

Social climber
State of Confusion
May 2, 2010 - 08:21pm PT

"Right now you should watch me work as a hoe in the garden!"

































































































photo not found
Missing photo ID#155830
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
May 2, 2010 - 08:25pm PT
Pate wrote-
"There you go Klimmer, that's it in a nutshell. Your condescending attitude is what gets you the replies you get..."

I'm thinking now he thrives on it. Look how he's come back with a vengence with this stuff. -After being "outed and shopped" as Mister E said a few pages back.

Paging LOCKER...
L0CKER

Social climber
State of Confusion
May 2, 2010 - 08:27pm PT

"Paging LOCKER... "

















YOU RANG??????????
Pate

Trad climber
May 2, 2010 - 08:36pm PT
He's the Garden Bottom Bitch.

I sometimes think that condescension is a last ditch attempt to win some sort of argument or disagreement- it is the ultimate dismissal of someone's views or beliefs.

I don't feel sorry for you Klimmer- I hold you accountable for your ignorance.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2010 - 08:38pm PT
Yep. Its really sad.

The Bully Club of ST, is alive and well. The reason many have left ST.

None of you ever really talk substance, only ad hominem attacks constantly.


All we get are Cyber Bullies. You're infamous on ST. It gets really old.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
May 2, 2010 - 08:38pm PT
Pate wrote-
"I don't feel sorry for you Klimmer- I hold you accountable for your ignorance."

Damn straight.

I'm a fan of Sam Harris, whose stance is that there's a place for shame, for shaming in society, and for shaming those who pander bronze-age ignorance and superstition in the 21st century. My stance, too.

Klimmer's inspired me to strengthen this stance, I think.


Yeah, here comes the Talking Points vocabulary of the supernaturalists and crazies, too. "Cyber-bullies!" "Hate!" "Haters!" "Arrogant!" "Attackers!" Don't let this gilligan reframe it.

"None of you ever really talk substance..."
Rich!

What do you want to talk about? Ohm's Law? Actin-myosin filament theory as a basis for muscular movement and behavior? Carl Sagan's "Cosmic Calender"? Environmental conditions on Titan that might be conducive to life. Mitochondria? Switching power supplies? Derivation of E=mc2. (Have you done it?) Game theory? Prisoner's Dilemma? and how it's kinda playing out in the fossil fuel depletion? the proof to five and only five perfect solids? What? C'mon.

Post up something "substantive" that one gets in college science or graduate school and you'll get different responses.

You baffle with b.s. You don't dazzle with any brilliance. Go read a Lubert Stryer Biochemistry book, come back, then post up all that crazy crap.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 2, 2010 - 08:47pm PT
Perhaps we need to have a meeting at the Integratron to sort this out?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integratron

Anyway, the people capable of believing in an Apollo 20 mission seem much the same as those who believe that Apollo 11 never happened.
WandaFuca

Social climber
From the gettin place
May 2, 2010 - 08:49pm PT
Anyway, the people capable of believing in an Apollo 20 mission seem much the same as those who believe that Apollo never happened.



Reality lies somewhere between Werner and Klimmer.





WandaFuca

Social climber
From the gettin place
May 2, 2010 - 08:54pm PT
Maybe Klimmer can get to the bottom of this cosmic celtic conspiracy . . .


















































Credit: WandaFuca


High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
May 2, 2010 - 08:57pm PT
Anyway, Klimmer, thanks for being our "poster child" or simply personification here at the Taco for you know what. You're our opportunity, or, let me speak for myself, my opportunity, to vent. Again, thanks. Feels good.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2010 - 08:59pm PT
Q: Why would you ever post on a OP topic that you are not interested in or think completely out of this world and bat-poop crazy?

No one is forcing you to respond.

I skip topics and threads all the time. If I don't have anything constructive to say, I pass it by.

I do not attack anyone. I will call out bad behavior. Apparently you haven't heard of manners or the Golden Rule.



Recall, the OP is about the massive object on the farside of the Moon.
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
May 2, 2010 - 09:09pm PT
Hey Klimmer, was this one of your 'constructive' posts?

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1126598&msg=1126806#msg1126806

You know, the one about angels f*#king humans, creating supernatural offspring that pissed off God and confirms the angry, violent, old testament God.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
May 2, 2010 - 09:10pm PT
We don't "attack" anyone either. We are men and women of laws, afterall. We too "call out bad behavior". What's more, we call out bad belief, too, as it bears on better practices in the practice of living. So the point is, there is a reason, or reasons, behind it.

Reminder. Beliefs matter. Beliefs are "behavioral drivers" in the human species. (e.g., That's why the world is having a problem with Islamic jihadists right now.) That's the modern understanding since the 16th century.

re: 1. "attack" 2. "bully" 3. "hate" Watch your words. Words matter, too. (Unless you're a hip-hop artist, then I for one will be more forgiving. But your pic a few pages back and your posts so far don't suggest it.)


EDIT Yeah, Monolith, ain't that something.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2010 - 09:22pm PT
Monolith,

I certainly didn't state it like you did.

And yes, that is what the Book of Genesis discusses and the Book of Enoch.

I can tell you don't have faith in either. That is your choice.

I'm not saying these things in isolation. It is discussed in detail in books, religious texts that are held sacred by many around the world who believe including me.

So you do not believe. You do not see it that way. Why slam the faith of so many? Why not just roll your eyes, say "whatever," and walk on?

Live and let live. I'm not demanding anyone agree with me. I'm just wanting people to consider it, to talk about it, pro and con. If we disagree then we disagree. Manners should always prevail.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
May 2, 2010 - 09:25pm PT
Here it is from another perspective...

I pay attention to this thread to get a sense of how others are responding to your nonsense and Abrahamic Christian fundamentalism. This sense or "feel" happens to be important to me.

And my sense is, times ARE changing. My kindred spirits were burned at the stake 300-400 years ago. They're not anymore and Abrahamic religious institutions across continents and around the world are flailing. Thank goodness. Can't happen soon enough.

So it's not all about you or your crazy topics, Gilligan.
Diesel_Smoke

Big Wall climber
May 2, 2010 - 09:35pm PT
I digress; the Klimmer-like fundamentalist's views are truthfully the most reasonable and favorable of those who are aligned with religious dogma.

The effort of their adamant debating is honestly, in my opinion, evidence of genuine care for others. Their internal interest for others, in addition to their religious beliefs, reinforce ideas their efforts as beneficial and necessary for those not of belief. While their efforts may amuse and irritate, a greater degree of concern and intelligence exists in them than their indifferent religious counterpart.

The religious 'moderates' are the most loathsome, feeble minded, and self-interested of all religious (and non-religious) sects. While fundamentalists may justify their beliefs with remarkably poor evidence and bizarre conclusions, moderates cite nothing but self-interested rewards for their beliefs. These feeble-minded 'believers' need no understanding for any event; no cause/effect evidence needed for accepting their beliefs.

Individuals who merely foreclose their belief as a guarantee of future incentives and salvation demonstrate the lowest imaginable level of intellectual achievement. Any requirement of evidence for 'truth' is an obvious indication of higher function. Similarly, refusing the comforts and incentives of faith is not actually a satisfying solution. Obviously, declining 72 virgins isn't a casual decision. And, maybe, within the quiet confines of my mind, on my death bed, I'll accept... just to feebly 'see what happens.'

Thus, I sincerely applaud the efforts and concern of Klimmer, et al. The internal goodness as manifested in your actions, despite religious dogma, is likely real concern for others' salvation. Your ability to consider and imagine beyond the constraints of religion is welcoming.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
May 2, 2010 - 09:42pm PT
I see what you're saying so I won't disagree.

Yet, then again, I'm also with the likes of Sam Harris: Both camps are a menace. Each in their own way.

Case in point: I'd rather a suit-case size nuclear bomb were in the hands of a moderate Christian or Moslem than a fundamentalist one.



EDIT 6:43. Well, then Jim, I guess were defining "bullying" these days differently then. So let's throw in "attacking" and "hating" too. Then again, not. That's b.s.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
May 2, 2010 - 09:42pm PT
Klimmer can defend himself.

That some of what he thinks isn`t what I think, has no consequence. What does ring true is his point about bullying. It`s possible to get a point across while respecting your opponent.

Yeah, I know I`m guilty of posting indignantly without caution but why bully someone who makes you imagine. It`s fun to consider aliens and space ships from another solar system. Like I said before, The things I know that can`t be changed, just oppress for the sake of money.
cintune

climber
the Moon and Antarctica
May 2, 2010 - 10:22pm PT


I like Klimmer's posts, actually, they beat the political threads anyway.
Fritz

Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
May 2, 2010 - 10:40pm PT
Klimmer: I do respect that you believe all angles of the question should be considered.

However:

Elizabeth Kubler-Ross' book, "On Death and Dying” identifies five stages of accepting death.

• Denial (this isn't happening to me!)

• Anger (why is this happening to me?)

• Bargaining (I promise I'll be a better person if...)

• Depression (I don't care anymore)

• Acceptance (I'm ready for whatever comes)



Perhaps you should accept:

those stages may apply to those who present ST threads with controversial material.







Sometime: you just have to let go.



Best wishes, Fritz
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
May 2, 2010 - 10:46pm PT
“The religious 'moderates' are the most loathsome, feeble minded, and self-interested of all religious (and non-religious) sects. While fundamentalists may justify their beliefs with remarkably poor evidence and bizarre conclusions, moderates cite nothing but self-interested rewards for their beliefs. These feeble-minded 'believers' need no understanding for any event; no cause/effect evidence needed for accepting their beliefs.”



Moderate Christians ?

“So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out…”

Rev 3:16
weschrist

Gym climber
left sac
May 3, 2010 - 11:03am PT
Jesus spews lukewarm?


Klimmer, crazy people like you in charge of teaching our kids is SAD. Your ignorance and acceptance of the absolutely absurd continues to fuel the downfall of humanity. Your delusional beliefs are no different than talking salamanders, 72 virgins, trees that feel, a talking planet begging us to stop raping her, burning bushes, or Scientology. No progress can be made in the world of Samsara... delusion.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 3, 2010 - 11:09am PT
I don't think ignorance is the right word to describe Klimmer. He is quite aware. He just chooses fantasy and conjecture. I think he is harmless.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2010 - 11:19am PT
Guys,

I have a moment now since students are still state testing.

Seems you all have a very short memmory.

I suppose you would say the same thing towards these great men of science and faith: Copernicus, Galileo, Kepler, Newton and many, many more.

Not that I'm in that class, only to point out doing science and having faith are compatible.

I've already stated I'm a Theistic Evolutionist. Do we know our history completely without flaw? Do we see crystal clearly regarding our past? Do we know all? Do we know all the connections within Evolution and exactly how it happened? Yes, we have have theories with evidence, but they are incomplete.

We have a hidden past that is being revealed slowly.

Hypotheses gentlemen are educated guesses. We can all speculate. And speculation leads to investigation and the scientific method . . .

Let me know when you know it all. Thanks.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2010 - 12:40pm PT
So who among you is brave enough to go in on a FOIA request from NASA with me regarding the massive object on the farside of the Moon? I would request a specific region with 4 corners described by lat/long with the center nadir over the center of said object, and I would request the latest and highest resolution of all LRO images of said object from a multitude of perspectives for 3D viewing.

The center mass of the massive object is (according to Google Moon):

18 degrees 43 minutes South Lattitude

117 degrees 41 minutes East Longitude



Making NASA FOIA requests:
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/pao/FOIA/

The LRO Mission:
http://lunar.gsfc.nasa.gov/
The LRO Mission team:
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LRO/team/index.html
http://lunar.gsfc.nasa.gov/science.html
http://lunar.gsfc.nasa.gov/gallery.html
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LRO/multimedia/index.html
dirtbag

climber
May 3, 2010 - 12:46pm PT
Not me.


But if there aren't any documents,which will probably be the case then what? Will it become fodder for a new conspiracy?
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
May 3, 2010 - 12:57pm PT
"brave enough"?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 3, 2010 - 12:59pm PT
^^^^ two or more out that far on a limb could be scary!
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2010 - 01:48pm PT
You do know that I'm only requesting the latest up to date imagery from the Lunar Recon. Orbiter (LRO) that is now imaging the entire Moon surface at the highest resolution ever. It is so good we can now see the tracks on the Moon's surface from the Apollo missions.

I would not be asking for interpretation, just the images. Just the raw images. No purposeful manipulation, no pixellating, no masking, just the virgin raw images as they come from the LRO for said region.

This program has been paid for with our tax dollars. These images belong to all US citizens. They are the peoples' images. We should have complete access to them.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Why'djya leave the ketchup on the table?
May 3, 2010 - 01:53pm PT
I don't understand why Klimmer attracts the insults some of you hurl at him in virtually every reply. He doesn't respond in kind. You all must feel pretty damned stupid to get trolled like that....

DMT
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
May 3, 2010 - 02:03pm PT
From the olde days of Bill Zaumen on the wreck, DMT has spoken out against ganging
up on the odd kid. I truly respect that.
howlostami

Trad climber
Southern Tier, NY
May 3, 2010 - 02:15pm PT
The only reason the chinese have a space program is so they can plant an ark on the dark side of the moon :)
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 3, 2010 - 03:30pm PT
The hate and ignorance expressed against people here is shameful. Every thread, every topic, it matters not, some sihthead brings up his revulsion for Klimmer. (or for that matter, for me) and his belief in religion.

Attacking his method of earning a living is the lowest blow of all.

Many of these same individuals would have no problem letting homosexuals, bisexuals, abstainsts, hedonists, Stalinists, communists, socialists, atheists, animists, dyads, druids, and drunks teach children in public or private schools; but KLIMMER, because he professes a belief in a Christian GOD of whatever stripe, you think its permissible to castigate him and try and destroy his credibility?



What complete as#@&%es you are showing yourselves to be.

I case you don't remember, the expression of religious tolerance is one of this nations higest and oldest traditions. It is enshrined in our constitution as a right GRANTED BY GOD that every man may pursue his religion in the way he sees fit. And that includes Proclaiming it loud and long on street corners, in books, on television, radio, newspapers or any other venue that provides an audience. His religion asks him to spread the word, and if you don't want to hear it, DON"T REPLY. GO AWAY. Its not hard on a website at all. DON"T CLICK THE THREAD TWICE.

It is far, far away a sad thing that tolerance is so far from HFSC and others natures here. If Klimmer were a lay preacher, standing on a university campus, and giving his views, and were a number of rude hecklers begin to harass him, campus security would come by and ask them to stop, and disperse. There is NOTHING about his religious views that make him unfit to teach, and those suggesting that there is, those who are actually looking up his personal data and publishing it that they might ridicule him with it, are the worst kind of intolerant bigots and crude deniers of his rights. There is NOTHING that justifies that behavior. You show not your brilliant intelligence, but instead your dark, bigoted ignorance.


Klimmer, here, is pursuing a simple interest in a simple topic, and in a simple, fun way. He is not forcing you to claim you believe his premise, hell, I don't think he BELIEVES it any more than I do. It is a possibility that he wants to explore. That is the nature of inquiry. You see something of interest, and explore it. WHY does a peanut gallery think it needs to destroy that amusement?




Yesterday, on the DISC channel, some cockeyed Physicist appeared in a TV show where he said that he believes that someday mankind may create a spacecraft that is missioned with spreading life to other worlds in the far flung galaxy. A videographer created a video scene showing a massive spaceship splitting into a thousand parts, each with its own drive, and imagined them each zeroing onto a different planet or target, to spread life. That TV segment took tens of thousand dollars to produce and disseminate, and hundreds of thousands will someday see it. Nobody is reviling the producers of that segment, bringing their careers into disrepute and claiming they should be prevented from pursuing those jobs.


But when Klimmer brings up the possibility that some artifact, perhaps a similar artifact from a different species (or not,) may be preserved for millions of years on the airless and undisturbed far side of some astronomical body, or perhaps just an interesting, anomalous rock, he suddenly is not fit to teach an ignorant child in some school, the poor pathetic topic that is public school science? What desperate and undignified kind of hatred is THAT?

There is nothing wrong with anything Klimmer has posted here. It is a fun and amusing topic, of interest to some like myself, and not a single piece of the topic has been manufactured by Klimmer himself. He has not said it was an "Ark" like in the Bible. It MAY be a big ship, and mostly a big empty fuel tank that provided living quarters, or whatever else, or most likely its nothing. A damn rock. He is merely exploring the topic as a fun aside, a way to pass the time with like minded people. If you don't qualify as a like minded person, if you find no fun in the topic or the exploration, GET THE HELL OUT of the Thread.

WHERE do you think you have the right to provoke the distraction and villainy of disparaging his TEACHING CREDENTIALS?




Low lifes should crawl back under rocks. If you can't provide better behavior than mean mouthing his enthusiasm, criticizing his career and disparaging his intellect, his religion and his choice of amusements, GO AWAY. Nobody insists you read this thread. there are a full ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND THREADS on this site, and your input is not needed to make this one any better.







Klimmer, tell me how you would like me to join your photo track file request, and I will comply. I see no harm in it at all. 99.999% chance it's some kind of a ridge line, but .001% chance the people who discovered the anomaly might have found an Arches National Monument style Rainbow Bridge on the moon, and why shouldn't I get in on the recognition of a natural wonder of Earths Moon? I would like to see a stereoscopic view of that rock. It appears it is easily 1500 feet high from the mapping data on Google moon, and a mile long. Perhaps its an El Cap, or even bigger!

rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
May 3, 2010 - 04:38pm PT
Although a few scientists throughout history have had ideas that seemed crackpot, such as thinking that the earth is round, most crackpots have turned out to be crackpots.

It will suck of Klimmer turns out to be right but statistically, he's a crackpot by believing that there is a giant space ark on the dark side of the moon.

I'm not at all sure how thinking that he is a crackpot about this has anything to do with religion but I guess anyone who shows pictures like those on the cover of the Enquirer and then talks of God is going to be condemned for both.

Also, Galileo was not some unknown guy posting on the internet. When I hear that someone at NASA thinks this is more than a simply Photoshop trick then I might pay more attention. Until then, I'll stick with the traditional view that there is no space ark on the moon and that it's just some silly idea being supported by wackos.

I look forward to being wrong but that doesn't mean I'll just believe any outlandish idea like this. If I believe this, I'll have to believe in Santa Claus, vampires, and a balanced budget, too.

Dave

[edit to add] Attacking Klimmer and not just the idea presented is a bit weak. There are far crazier people teaching our kids. At least Klimmer doesn't seem to hide anything. I hope he doesn't teach this stuff to kids as truth or I'll start siding with the haters.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 3, 2010 - 04:49pm PT
It's a dollars and cents issue when an agency like NASA has to burn much needed dollars responding to thousands of quack FOIA requests...
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2010 - 05:13pm PT
Rokjox, thanks.

Come on guys. Do I know if it is a Space Ark of intelligent design?
No I do not.

Do I think that it could be, from the images and story floating around regarding Apollo 20? Yes it could be. There are elements of this story that seem to be true. Bits of real truth seem to be and could be leaking out.

No, I do not talk about this with students. There are many things I do not talk about with anyone. I have stated this many times before.

One of the neat things about the internet, is that you can float strange ideas and opinions without any significant flack. Well, ok, I used to think this. Flack just seems to be coming my way on ST though.

Gee, on this thread too much private info has been released. I have never done to anyone what has been done to me here on this thread. I would never do that kind of Bovine Dung to someone.

I'm asking questions and looking for real answers. I know NASA knows already. I would like to know also. I think many, many people all over the Earth would like to know.

They (NASA Apollo Missions) have taken many images of this object and has been shown in the historical image record. If it was just a ridge, if it was just an anomoly along the side of a crater, then I do not think they would give it any time and we wouldn't see so many official images of the massive object.

We are talking about a structure/object that is about 4500m by 850m or so in size and casts a shadow. Anything natural like a meteor slamming into the Moon at high impact speeds would create a massive crater, and it would vaporize. Check out Dr. Melosh's Impact Crater Calculator on-line and put in the size of this impactor to match the size of this object and you will see the crater would be massive.

A massive rock/asteroid this size does not come to rest on the Moon's surface gently.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
May 3, 2010 - 05:14pm PT
With evident embarassment, NASA caved in to public pressure for a serious response about that "face on Mars."

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2001/ast24may_1/

But of course a serious response from NASA had no effect on believers.

http://www.metaresearch.org/solar%20system/cydonia/proof_files/proof.asp
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 3, 2010 - 05:16pm PT
But the Martians love us, and here's proof.
Credit: NASA
dirtbag

climber
May 3, 2010 - 05:21pm PT
Gee, on this thread too much private info has been released. I have never done to anyone what has been done to me here on this thread.

I agree, and I think a lot of people should be ashamed.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 3, 2010 - 05:22pm PT
Here is a list of sites that debunk most of Klimmer's claims. It appears that a man name Thiery Speth has made up this whole thing.


http://sites.google.com/site/tasfastas/apollo20-pseudospaceship

http://blog.sublime.ca/2007/06/spaceship-debunked.html

http://apollohoax.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=theories&thread=1000&page=1

http://www.articlesbase.com/science-articles/the-apollo-20-alien-spaceship-hoax-307209.html

http://www.galaxiki.org/web/main/_blog/all/the-apollo-20-alien-spaceship-hoax.shtml

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/User:Moby-Dick4000/Apollo_20_hoax

http://www.engineerpages.info/wp/article/the-apollo-20-alien-spaceship-hoax/

cintune

climber
the Moon and Antarctica
May 3, 2010 - 05:31pm PT
As good a place as any to drop this little research gem:
Brain shuts off in response to healer's prayer

27 April 2010 by Andy Coghlan

WHEN we fall under the spell of a charismatic figure, areas of the brain responsible for scepticism and vigilance become less active. That's the finding of a study which looked at people's response to prayers spoken by someone purportedly possessing divine healing powers.

To identify the brain processes underlying the influence of charismatic individuals, Uffe Schjødt of Aarhus University in Denmark and colleagues turned to Pentecostal Christians, who believe that some people have divinely inspired powers of healing, wisdom and prophecy.

Using functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI), Schjødt and his colleagues scanned the brains of 20 Pentecostalists and 20 non-believers while playing them recorded prayers. The volunteers were told that six of the prayers were read by a non-Christian, six by an ordinary Christian and six by a healer. In fact, all were read by ordinary Christians.

Only in the devout volunteers did the brain activity monitored by the researchers change in response to the prayers. Parts of the prefrontal and anterior cingulate cortices, which play key roles in vigilance and scepticism when judging the truth and importance of what people say, were deactivated when the subjects listened to a supposed healer. Activity diminished to a lesser extent when the speaker was supposedly a normal Christian (Social Cognitive and Affective Neuroscience, DOI: 10.1093/scan/nsq023).

Schjødt says that this explains why certain individuals can gain influence over others, and concludes that their ability to do so depends heavily on preconceived notions of their authority and trustworthiness.

It's not clear whether the results extend beyond religious leaders, but Schjødt speculates that brain regions may be deactivated in a similar way in response to doctors, parents and politicians.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20627574.200-brain-shuts-off-in-response-to-healers-prayer.html

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 3, 2010 - 05:32pm PT
I know NASA knows already.

The problem with your premise starts with thinking like this...
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
May 3, 2010 - 05:34pm PT
Healyje- Stop attacking him.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2010 - 06:03pm PT
YES. NASA KNOWS.

The thing is, UFO disclosure has already really taken place, but no one really seems to listen. Why is that?

NASA does know, and here is why . . .

(Now I did post this before but I doubt you watched and learned. Maybe you guys can now watch and see just how much NASA knows. They know alright. These people talk because they were in the inside, now retired, so they can. Many on the inside can not talk or they run the risk of losing their jobs)

Clinton White House Chief John Podesta on UFO disclosure
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2Sz-MgoFos

Steven Spielberg on UFO's and Jimmy Carter 1977
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9TY6yg4ejM&feature=related

Ex President Jimmy Carter UFO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrJeBCi47ME&feature=related

Ray-Gun's ALIEN speech to UN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag44dRO8LEA&feature=related

Ufo Disclosure Edgar Mitchell CNN Obama Administration April 21 2009
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4x-EGrMW_I&feature=related

Ex Astronaut Says Feds 'Know' UFOs Exist 21.4.2009
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlOZtfy0MwY&feature=related

Astronaut Gordon Cooper Talks About UFOs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvPR8T1o3Dc&feature=related

NASA Gordon Cooper UFOs are visiting the Earth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkBhME9RCjc&feature=related

Astronaut Buzz Aldrin Recounts Apollo 11 UFO Encounter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlkV1ybBnHI&feature=related

Buzz Aldrin Reveals Existence of Monolith on Mars Moon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDIXvpjnRws&feature=related

U.F.O DISCLOSURE PROJECT -FULL VERSION
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vyVe-6YdUk&feature=related

Clinton's (UFO) Speech in Hong Kong 14 Sep 2005
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3F3CXspsuo&feature=related

The Vatican's Take on Aliens?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gB7QhHcYIE&NR=1&feature=fvwp

YouTube - Michio Kaku On Aliens On Physics ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw8dcb8iKSM&feature=related


UFO Contact - Former Canadian Defence Minister
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGyFWyNuF3s&feature=related




If an honest person would watch all the videos above, you would come to know Aliens/UFOs are a real phenonmenon, you do not have to be bat-poop crazy or be a fruit-loop to known it is real and this phenomenon has been occurring throughout mankind's recorded history.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 3, 2010 - 06:09pm PT
UFO Contact - Former Canadian Defence Minister
Paul Hellyer was our Minister of Defence from 1963 - 68. He's now 87, and hasn't been active in current affairs in any substantive or consistent way since the 1970s. Overall not entirely credible. A video of him from 2005 saying that he believes in UFOs is pretty thin gruel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Hellyer
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 3, 2010 - 06:15pm PT
Port, I have not had time yet to dig through the entire list of your "debunks". Except for hte first one.


It's a poorly written, massively misspelled mess of poor grammer and odd tangents. Its very indicative of what I said much higher above. That the "debunking " is as tortorous as the intiial claims.

But about 30 pages into the work, which includes all kind of malaraky, such as self-described fictional sidelines about moon monsters and faces, is this line:
I am not a scientist, neither I have any specialization.

Which I think about sums up the first work.

He does claim to have sent some of the photos to a professional geologist, who thinks it may be a ridge line caused by a compression, perhaps from a meteorite impact..

That is about as far as maybe 60 pages brings that guy to a conclusion, those he tries to use the sort of Photogrammetry analysis techniques that Klimmer suggests to several of William Rutledges photos to show that some of Rutledges photos are manipulated or fake. At least in that they are not all the same photograph. That is the best you can make of all of his photos. If the guys command of english was better, or if he EVER submitted his work to an editor, I might be able to better make out what he is trying to say. He is all over the map, and its truly hard to follow some of his paragraphs.

But truly half of his site is not even apparently devoted to the object, he has chapters devoted to Salvadoe dali, a fisherman's parable he goes into extensive drivel about and other stuff.


Here is a sample of his stuff, from near his conclusion, and the sample is actually more lucid than most of his prose:
Could it be, following that notion of paradigmatic trauma, that the reasons why, if extraterrestrial are more close than we imagine, extraterrestrials haven't yet established contact with us, is just because we simply cannot face our primitive condition besides an evoluted condition, as if in instants a bonobo would had notion of his condition compared to our condition?

Like contemporary philosofical strings of biology say that one should not interfere with a biological system to make precise it's study?

Could we face the notion of our own species as a doomed failed attempt of inteligent evolution among billions of attempts lost in time, even wihout being registed in history? Could that be surprisingly shocking or surprisingly common?

Speculating, I can't prove or disprove it. I question why didn't any obvious sign reached us as an alien attempt of comunication. Are they camuflated? Or too much far way, or time is just too young for that happening? Could a massive universal extinction had blocked the possibility of an universal civilization gather enough technology that would allow comunication thrue space? Or the time travelling of that comunication is so immense that haven't reach us yet? Are we able to receive that comunication? Radio waves should be universal, or are they just universal on our perspective of our own sense of common? A boom of speculation is generated from a question without precise answers.

One fact is present:

Humankind has to change his own behaviour for and to themselves and the sorrounding exterior otherwize Humans or if whatever they will be in future, would never know those answers, because it would already been extinct by their own acts, specially if they had the knowledge to prevent or fix it.

Perhaps, or probably and eventually if things keep walking the same path of history errors, the usual elites thata have powers would be the next generations that like a virus perpetuate the IT so destoant from Humankind's utopic idea of themselves. There are entire cities bellow earth, vaults, prepared for a nuclear war - I think I wouldn't be allowed to have acess to it, me and billions.

Or, like every Homo that stood on earth, erased from history, is just and analogy for the ones that don't stand the trial of evolution? Will sacrifice be a constant on our own potential process of maturity and evolution? Is it not the only way of nature and by inherency, ourselves?

I would like to think that men will be able to impose his emancipation, not to himself, but to the point that he wouldn't be subordinated by the brutal laws of the universe. I would like also that somewhere there's some good in it's full sense, but these are just speculations and desires created by myself.

I think revolutions are possible. They were since times part of our History's evolutionary bursts, and nothing is certain. I think we gather the tools to mold our actions, we have at least that potential, we spare a lot of that potential also.


This guy appears to believe in extraterrestrials, too. This is a debunker? He sure can't stay on topic.

I hope that your (Port'a) further examples of debunker are more lucid than this guy. It's easy to pile up a massive number of links off of Google. Its more convincing if you get ONE that is a good one.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 3, 2010 - 06:18pm PT
Basic math debunks the whole shebang.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2010 - 06:21pm PT
MH,

Do you not know that the Canadian gov has an official site that allows people to look at your governments archives of UFO Canadian sightings and associated phenomenon?

I would google the site but I'm tired. It has been a long day. More work to do at home. It exists.


Here are some:

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/ufo/index-e.html

http://www.ufoevidence.org/topics/canada.htm



Boy, you Canooks must be into some strange kinda wacky weed to believe all this stuff. Sarcasm. It's really ok. You just want to know the truth.
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 3, 2010 - 06:22pm PT
Sure, Healtje, go for it. Beats dredging through Ports list. That first guy is as big of a crackpot as anybody else on the subject.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 3, 2010 - 06:25pm PT
Nothing in the Carter, Reagan, or Clinton youtube videos you posted even vaguely suggests any of the three believe/d in UFO's.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 3, 2010 - 06:25pm PT
Although Reagan seemed the sort of person capable of believing in UFOs...
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2010 - 06:37pm PT
Nothing in the Carter, Reagan, or Clinton youtube videos you posted even vaguely suggests any of the three believe/d in UFO's


If you post all the interviews with Carter regarding his sighting he does admit to seeing a UFO, in some he admits he isn't sure what it is, in some he says it might be, and in others he says no, he doesn't believe stuff like that is possible. But in all he is consistant with seeing a UFO. He has.

Reagan eludes to the idea that Aliens are among us already.

Clinton talks about and eludes to the idea that we have a government within a government. And yes he did try to find out about Rosewell and Area 51. "They" shut him down. "They" never agreed or abidded by his need to know, because as the President of the United States, he wasn't on a need to know basis. We do indeed have a government within a government. One is permanent throughout all administrations, and one is not. One is voted in every 4 years. The other is never voted in, and is always permanently there, whether we want it or not.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 3, 2010 - 06:52pm PT
No, Carter says he saw something he can't explain, he does not believe it was a craft piloted by aliens.

No, Reagan was using a hypothetical as an example of the kind of event that could / would unite humanity. He 'eludes' nothing whatsoever.

No, Clinton 'eluded' to the fact there might be a crank career employee sitting on material he hasn't seen. It's entirely unlikely and even if such a crank did have material, it would be the same lame junk everyone else with this proposition has.
scuffy b

climber
Where only the cracks are dry
May 3, 2010 - 06:56pm PT
To answer Mighty Hiker's earlier questions (I won't quote them, you'll
have to guess), I have in fact met Klimmer: not at the WoodsonFest but at
the Woodson Shindig (2007).
He is personable, intelligent and lively, and he can climb. I will offer
one caveat.
He spent what might be considered an inordinate amount of time in quasi
secret discussions with "Phantom X", the main topic being a highly
esoteric and restricted document with a title like The Revenge of the
Itus.
The author is supposedly one "Dennis Adams" (I'm So Sure).

It is telling, perhaps, that Phantom X has never subsequently produced
this document despite repeated requests.

As for Weld_it, I have yet to meet that rising star of trad radness. I
understand that he has unlimited Man Potential in addition to his generous
concern for the safety of the climbing community.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 3, 2010 - 07:01pm PT
I've met Weld-It, or at least someone claiming to be Weld-It. He/she was not a space alien.
Jongy

Gym climber
Ciudad Juárez, Ch Mexico
May 3, 2010 - 07:07pm PT
what is with all of the posts that are not climbing related? Shouldn't there be another section for information that isn't related to climbing? I was hoping to find some information on this great form about fabricating my own climbing holds. But it seems in between a few not so great trip reports there is nothing but political discussion. What is wrong with you people? Go somewhere else?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 3, 2010 - 07:10pm PT
Jongy you couldn't be more right. Political/religious threads get far more posts than climbing ones. Hell, the odd sex thread even gets buried by the other crap. Must have something to do with all the people from LA.
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 3, 2010 - 07:13pm PT
Its so very easy to prove or disprove anything ... right up until you actually have to do it.



The first guy spends a tremendous amount of effort proving that one of the images that he got off the Retiredafb webs video sites is not the same as the form on the image or the same as the other image. Which is something that is admitted in one of the websites that publish text regarding the images. The "researcher" has just proven that an admitted artists/videographers re-creation of the object is a FAKE!

Well, Duh!

(the videographer had overlaid several different shots of the object, subject to vidoe manipulation, in order to try and make a clearer image. he describes adjusting the different images to eliminate parallax ...)


It took me 60 pages of reading to divine that. I think Port is wasting my time, big-time.
Weld_it

Trad climber
Chatsworth
May 3, 2010 - 07:15pm PT
Hey! I want to learn about making climbing holds too. All this alien stuff is a bummer and they should just go watch E.T. or something and leave the radness of this climbing forum to the rad climbers.
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 3, 2010 - 07:18pm PT
Then weld-it I have a really simple suggestion.

Go find a thread about making plastic handholds. This is not such a thread. You are wasting YOUR time reading this.



Is THAT so hard to understand? THIS is a thread about a rock stuck in a crater on the far side of the moon. Nothing here, except YOUR post, will be about pulling plastic handholds out of your ...



Weld_it has been breathing the fumes off the galvanized pipes again. It makes him a little dopey ...
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Why'djya leave the ketchup on the table?
May 3, 2010 - 07:19pm PT
HELLYeah~ You got Donni on the hook here now BROUGH!!!1111

Ask him for his favorite hold fabrication recipe, lol!

DMT

Jongy

Gym climber
Ciudad Juárez, Ch Mexico
May 3, 2010 - 07:21pm PT
Who is Donni? Donni if you are reading this can you tell me about your favorite climbing hold recipe?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 3, 2010 - 07:25pm PT
Son, I don't do plastic but even a discussion about (ugh!) indoor "climbing" is better that the pseudo science/religious conspiracy crap we've been getting.
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 3, 2010 - 07:29pm PT
For Gods sake, Donini, don't you have anything better to do than comment on this stuff?

I am going to tell the Consigliere on you. Get back to planning that next bank heist.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 3, 2010 - 07:33pm PT
You have a point Rokjox, waiting at the airport for a friend to arrive from England, I must be bored to the point of stupidity.
Weld_it

Trad climber
Chatsworth
May 3, 2010 - 07:37pm PT
Wake up Rokjox! I have been digging this thread from the begining but i also would like to know about holds. This is a free country and I can read and post wheere I want. You might need to relax a bit and maybe pull on your wall if you have one. It is fun! Slow down the hate trane bra!
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 3, 2010 - 07:41pm PT
The Red Queens Challenge:

To Believe in the impossible







Lewis Carroll


"I can't believe that!" said Alice.

"Can't you?" the queen said in a pitying tone. "Try again, draw a long breath, and shut your eyes."

Alice laughed. "There's no use trying," she said. "One can't believe impossible things."

"I dare say you haven't had much practice," said the queen. "When I was your age, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."



This is the essence of the scientific method.

Its damn hard to find something truly impossible that you can practice on. But belief in the impossible is the grandest exercise that you can find. It keeps the mind open to the unlikely, aids in the nimble jumps to conclusions and keeps us young.






The best piece of discussion on this thread was the guy who first described the best approach to suspected fiction as being the suspension of disbelief, and the approach to suspected fact as the suspension of belief. Or something like that.

All things to their time, and knowing when to suspend which is the essence of wisdom.

Without suspending belief, most science would never have occurred. After all, almost everybody KNEW the world was flat. We all know the expected outcome of a game, a experiment or a argument. Its whatever the groupthink says it should be. Without suspending belief in that kind of fact, the truth of it cannot be questioned.




Its just good exercise, and a gateway to amusement.
Jongy

Gym climber
Ciudad Juárez, Ch Mexico
May 3, 2010 - 07:41pm PT
donini if you would like you can buy some of my holds and build a wall for yourself.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Why'djya leave the ketchup on the table?
May 3, 2010 - 07:42pm PT
How do you make them? What's your recipe?

DMT
Jongy

Gym climber
Ciudad Juárez, Ch Mexico
May 3, 2010 - 07:43pm PT
Yeah, how do you make them? I need to know.
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 3, 2010 - 07:44pm PT
Donini invokes them through the exercise of intentional (volitional) magic.

Every act begins with thought, and an invocation of intention. It is the first form of magic.


POOF! Through the strength of his desire, they come into existence. But your intention must be perfect and unconstrained by thought.





Now go and practice. Practice makes perfect.
Weld_it

Trad climber
Chatsworth
May 3, 2010 - 07:45pm PT
You can PM me with how you do it so "Flash Gordon" up thread will mellow out. How do you do it?
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 3, 2010 - 07:49pm PT
If you need such knowledge, look it up, form your own thread or ask RC Noob.



You show no virtue by f*#king up somebody's else's thread, children.


When you grow up, you will come to understand respect.
Weld_it

Trad climber
Chatsworth
May 3, 2010 - 07:50pm PT
huh? I'm no n00b rokjox and understand respect and I asked politly for info on making some rad holds. Waht is wrong with that?
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 3, 2010 - 07:54pm PT
You know damn well you are on a thread devoted to the exploration of an idea. An idea not on molding plastic. If you actually DID understand respect (which you must not by evidence of your prior posting) you would start your own thread. Surely it would be better to start a thread so you can get the eyes you request? Nobody will ever look here for information on plastic holds. So you will get few replies and less information than the pathetic little that you now have.



(To paraphrase:

"Don't be a dick.")









Next: A Soliloquy on Mulder's Dilemma
Weld_it

Trad climber
Chatsworth
May 3, 2010 - 07:59pm PT
rokjox, but all the hot hold makers are in this thread. have you ever made any holds and if so, how did you do it? PM me later if you are watching alice in wonderland or something
WBraun

climber
May 3, 2010 - 08:05pm PT
I will make hold.

Choke hold.

Goes around your weld_it neck till you turn blue ....
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 3, 2010 - 08:09pm PT
So much for Werner the pacifist...

Anyway, you may not be strong or fast enough. I hear Weld_It's a tough customer.
WBraun

climber
May 3, 2010 - 08:10pm PT
Fuk you I was never ever a pacifist.

I'm a brutal killer of stupid trolls .....
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Why'djya leave the ketchup on the table?
May 3, 2010 - 08:10pm PT
I know a guy who sealed a cracked engine block with it.

DMT
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 3, 2010 - 08:23pm PT
Mulder's Dilemma





Mulder of X-files is in a difficult position. He has been confronted for most of his life with an understanding that the universe is not exactly as he has been told. He knows that most of what he has learned is the result of painstaking research, yet that research has given only "a possible version of reality", not necessarily the "only possible truthful and correct version of reality". Understanding the difference between convenient theory and inconvenient reality, that is, understanding what the term theory really means, he is open to alternative explanations at every turn.

But understanding also that he can't approach his superiors with stuff that turns out to have yet another alternative explanation, he begins every episode with an open mind, listening to every actor on the issues they have seen, but reserving his judgement until he has the full picture.

He suspends his disbelief, even to suppressing his automatic, knee jerk explanations of his own experience. He knows he has trained himself in massive amounts of literature in the "occult" and "alternative realities" and has faith in his ability to sort through the reality he faces and make congruent the plethora of facts and experiences he faces in each episode of investigation.





That is; he WANTS to believe in UFO phenomenon. He is open to the possibility, and understands the wonders that true belief/knowledge would open him to ...


... BUT! ...

... He also knows he doesn't have yet enough facts to actually believe in them. His belief would be irrational at that point. So he investigates and waits until the reality confronting him supports the desire to believe. And then, and only then, will he actually perform the act of belief.

Desiring to believe makes him open to the supporting facts. Desiring to have the truth makes him an investigator and limits him to facts.

Both are necessary for him to be a useful investigator.








I could polish this a lot more, and make the logic much tighter. But it would be wasted effort. Those who wish to understand, understand. Those who wish to ridicule, will never permit themselves to understand.








Next:

The Difficulty, Importance and Necessity of Red in Blue Team Exercises.



(this may have to wait, I am babysitting grandchildren...)
Weld_it

Trad climber
Chatsworth
May 3, 2010 - 08:24pm PT
dude--- that was a TV show, not a documenitary!!! LOL
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 3, 2010 - 08:27pm PT
I have little misunderstanding that I was not writing to/for you.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 3, 2010 - 08:38pm PT
I don't know what all the fuss is about as they are already amongst us...
You talkin' to me?
You talkin' to me?
Credit: Reilly
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 3, 2010 - 08:41pm PT
Yeah, it's a thread dedicated to the exploration of ideas - oh-how-I-wish ideas that are then embellished with elobarately fabriacted 'facts', photos, ridiculous analyses, quotes out of context (hell, contexts out of context), and all sorts of other crock. It would be 'innocent' enough except in the age of the Internet this endless manufacturing of conspiracies does have a corrosive effect on society over time. Bad enough we can't seem to graduate more than half our highschool students and at the same time have so many people truck in this drivel. That someone attempts to do both does raise a concern in some folks; but that's cool so long as he keeps this stuff to himself at work.
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 3, 2010 - 08:57pm PT
I actually see this as a fun thread. And no mention of plastic handholds need be inferred.



But you can dispel this particular exercise with BASIC math.



BASIC math I do pretty good with. Its armchair stuff, from my/your living room.


Save me the time. Show me the algebra that says there is no possibility of a little green man on the back side of the moon, alive or dead, from here or there, now or then, ever.

Piece of cake, right? Should be easy for a true Blue Team Player like yourself.
Jongy

Gym climber
Ciudad Juárez, Ch Mexico
May 3, 2010 - 09:02pm PT
But that's the thing. I want to make holds out of natural material. Not plastic.
Weld_it

Trad climber
Chatsworth
May 3, 2010 - 09:05pm PT
Natural would be cool! Waht you dudes got down there to use for holds?
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 3, 2010 - 09:06pm PT
Try supergluing your nuts to the wall. That should make some pretty tiny crimpers.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2010 - 09:07pm PT
Climbing holds! Climbing holds??? What is this thread coming tooooo!!??

Better than plastic climbing holds are real rock climbing holds. Go to your favorite climbing crag and permanently borrow choice pieces of talis and flakes fallen on the ground of rock, whether they are granite, limestone, sandstone, basalt, tuff, whatever. Drill a 3/8" straight hole for the bolt plus washer, and cut a gasket for the back of your real rock manufactured hold out of old bicycle inner-tube and place between the rock and the artificial wall, and Voila! you have yourself a genuine great climbing hold that feels and climbs like real rock. Duh!!! It is. And the best part, every hold is unique. No 2 are alike.

I have made many such holds. They're great.


The most expensive of these types of holds are from the Moon. Moon rock climbing holds go for about $50,000/g or more. I say we get up there and bring back more than 380kg worth that Apollo brought back. Surely, the more we can bring back the cheaper the hold, don't you think?

Back to the Moon!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 3, 2010 - 09:10pm PT
Rokjox - speed of light, distance to nearest planet with intelligent life, and the energy required to travel anywhere near the SOL - it's an exercise in time travel consuming near infinite energy. Good luck with the odds of that ever happening once, let alone happening all the time with Earth somehow always the destination of choice. We must be high up on galactic travel agents' "must do" list.

And look at Klimmer's Apollo 20 shoulder patch, what does that imply? Aside from the fact neither craft had any such capability, where would they take it? Ridiculous.
Weld_it

Trad climber
Chatsworth
May 3, 2010 - 09:12pm PT
klimmer--- holds on the ground in joshua tree are illegal to take and the ones i drilled from Stoney Point all broke. I need a new drill or some super plastic stuff to mold my own and make a new wall. The rangers are the only ones with jtree holds on there walls LOL!
cintune

climber
the Moon and Antarctica
May 3, 2010 - 09:16pm PT
Some Adirondack anorthosite could sub for moon rock holds, only a few billion years younger than the real thing, but otherwise an almost perfect match.
Pate

Trad climber
May 3, 2010 - 09:25pm PT
Looks like someone took over the helm of the moron ship.......


.....anyhow- Klimmer, you need to be directly addressed.

Yep. Its really sad.

The Bully Club of ST, is alive and well. The reason many have left ST.

None of you ever really talk substance, only ad hominem attacks constantly.


All we get are Cyber Bullies. You're infamous on ST. It gets really old.

point by point:

1) That may be your opinion, but you're being a melodramatic woosy.

2) a-If you are referring to me you are wrong. I engage very few people directly in an aggressive way. RokJox and LEB are the primary ones. They get what they ask for, there is no bullying. In fact they are the only ones I engage besides you here in this thread. In this day and age, with the intense divisiveness being created by the Christian Right, I relish the opportunity to have at ignorant misinformed idiots like you.

b- No one has left SuperTopo, certainly not because of me or any one else's behavior. No one. Maybe LEB is taking a hiatus, but that's a good thing, and she'll certainly rise from the dead, she always does. You may believe this because you hear RJ screaming it from the mountaintop, but it's not true. It's just hot air like Glen Beck spray, just because you repeat it over and over again doesn't make it true. Everyone is still here. They just don't get involved in your crap. You would see this if you participated in any of the TR's, gear reviews or climbing related threads. I do, and I've NEVER seen your name there. Do you even climb?

3) It is you who lack substance. Misinformed statements that rely on half truths are not a solid basis for argument- nor are hastily assembled lists of links to conspiracy theory web sites. You have not made one single post of any substance on either this or the other thread. It's all been whining. Give us some facts or philosophy man, not just paranoia by-product.


4) a-All you get are cyberbullies? Hardly, look at the participants in this retarded thread.

b- I'm infamous? Hardly, and judging from the amount of PM's in my inbox, and the people they are from, I'm sure I offend very very few people. You would be surprised how many people PM me Klimmer, and the support they show, they understand humor.

5) IT GETS REALLY OLD- It's your belief system and arguments that are old Klimmer.


Carry on with your campaign of ignorance and stupidity. Reading your posts makes me understand what it must be like listening to you at a faculty meeting, complete with rolled eyes, smirks and guffaws.
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 3, 2010 - 09:39pm PT
Nobody says the thing ever had to make a SOL, nothing close. Slow as a bullet would get there eventually. Nobody said it had any sort of passengers.

Perhaps its intention was an automated probe. We don't use passengers to get to mars, but we have left a lot of junk there. I posited a lifeless transport, that creates its living scouts once it got to the destination from basic chemicals and a DNA replicator. Grow your little probe assistants once you get there, save all that nasty atmosphere and food, dump your time constraints, reduce boredom to nothing.


Not that a truly intelligent race wouldn't have solved lifespan problems as a first thing. we almost are there ourselves. I expect to be the last human to die of old age, its my kind of luck. The rest of the planet will be on birth control after the next century at the longest. Why should people die of old age? Turtles live a much longer time, and goldfish seem to last pretty good. Paramecium of some sorts never get old, just keep chugging on and mitose-ing.


But for it to actually BE a spaceship? It could be a billion years old, it would take a long time to get a lot of meteor hits at random. Maybe its a billon year old ship from Mars, or the old asteroid belt, before the large pieces broke up. Damn spaceship could be from anywhere, if it was dumped on the moon, it would/could last a LOOONG time. Not much to bust it up or break it down. The perfect storage field, beats the hell out of hte mohave desert or outside Tucson, eh?




500 years travel would be a piece of cake for an advanced unmanned ship, then it would make its survey, radio/laser/ whatever its message back home for that messages 50 light year travel, then dump itself on the backside of hte moon for our eventual discovery, done so purposely so that we would know that somewhere, somewhen another race was advanced enough to have taken a look at our marble, 100,000,000 years ago.



Lots of scenarios that don't involve speed of light travel. Or even really high energy. Maybe most of that is empty tanks of some really nasty fuel it used to get here, one way? It orbited long enough to collect its telemetry and then dumped it worthless one way computer driven ass on the moon?



as far as the patch, give me a break. Such things are usually a joke. Ever seen the giant shark helicopter patches made up by gunship pilots commemorating specific missions or operations? They always use metaphors, its not likely that two human spacecraft would use rope to life a mile long ship is it? The intent of the patch is just humor, showing that they were there to pick stuff up and bring it back. THAT is hardly evidence that the mission never took place, And I don't even really think the mission did take place. But I don't intend to use a silly sewn patch to make the argument that it wasn't.


You getting a little high there? Your argument that the earth Apollo mission couldn't lift an alien spacecraft the way their patch shows is the work of a drugged mind for sure.

I seen lots of REAL patches that are far more silly.




OH MY GOD, TMNT went into space!




Shuttle mission 51, they buzzed the statue of LIberty!


COWBOYS in Space!


NAKED WOMEN in Space!





History of Patches
The Popularization of Patches

While mission patches were initially an informal creation by the crew, they quickly became formalized, and were widely-used to symbolize each flight. Inevitably, space enthusiasts started collecting mission patches and, just as inevitably, entrepreneurs saw this trend as an opportunity to make money. The patch business was born. Patch collecting became so popular that entrepreneurs designed patches for all the flights that never had one. These patches are usually characterized by a stark lack of imagination and creative design.
http://genedorr.com/patches/History.html





A dumb mission patch has got to be the dumbest argument I heard YET.

Keep them coming, boy.
Pate

Trad climber
May 3, 2010 - 09:39pm PT
Many of these same individuals would have no problem letting homosexuals, bisexuals, abstainsts, hedonists, Stalinists, communists, socialists, atheists, animists, dyads, druids, and drunks teach children in public or private schools; but KLIMMER, because he professes a belief in a Christian GOD of whatever stripe, you think its permissible to castigate him and try and destroy his credibility?
This is why you're a dick RokJox. Homosexuals teaching kids? Check. Bisexuals teaching kids? Check. Hedonists teaching kids? You're a moron. Stalinists? You're outdated, but yes, check. Communists? Check, gladly. Socialists? Again, check, gladly. Atheists? Check. The last three make you an as#@&%e for including in the same list.

Who is the REAL HATE-MONGER RJ??????? THAT WOULD BE YOU.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 3, 2010 - 09:40pm PT
Pate's right. Im done with this. I cant argue with someone who bases their beliefs on Youtube videos. I think you pose interesting questions Klimmer, but thats all they are. Shadow governments, 911 conspiracies, religions prophecy..... anything else you want to share? They are all part of the same bullsh*t.
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland
May 3, 2010 - 09:40pm PT

Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
May 3, 2010 - 09:42pm PT
Nobody said it had any sort of passengers.

Umm, yeah, the original hoax behind this thread includes a video of a "female alien mummy."
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 3, 2010 - 10:00pm PT
Female alien mummy may not of come from craft. Or it may be faked, or it may be soomething else entirely.



One piece of fake doesn't mean all is faked.



You have not made a rigorous argument.




Many of these same individuals would have no problem letting homosexuals, bisexuals, abstainsts, hedonists, Stalinists, communists, socialists, atheists, animists, dyads, druids, and drunks teach children in public or private schools; but KLIMMER, because he professes a belief in a Christian GOD of whatever stripe, you think its permissible to castigate him and try and destroy his credibility?


Pate, I made that list because it WAS ridiculous. It was just as ridiculous as I could make it. And I though HARD for like 30 seconds to make up that list. Its just as ridiculous as thinking Klimmer can't be a great teacher because he wants to explore as an exercise in logical thought the possibility of a abandoned spacecraft on the moon.

Yet for every group on that list, you can find SOMEONE who might say that THAT group should not be teaching kids in schools. Just as you seem to discriminate against drunks. But LOTS of schoolteachers are drunks. And some of them may even be good at it.



Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, California
May 3, 2010 - 10:04pm PT
I believe there were Nephalim that lived on this world at one time,
And I think there is a possibility that there are people alive today
whose ancesters may have been Nephalim.

I also think a lot of the old Mythology in the world may be related to the Nephalim.

As for Aliens, I have a hard time believing in them.
Pate

Trad climber
May 3, 2010 - 10:09pm PT
Pate, I made that list because it WAS ridiculous.

All right, I apologize. What's wrong with druids though? Having a druid friend can get you out of an occasional jam.
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 3, 2010 - 10:11pm PT
I also have a hard time believing in aliens. At least until I see some better proof.


Yet every scientist alive seems to agree that somewhere there are Aliens. And a damn LOT of them, given a Trillion galaxies with a Trillion Billion Suns, and a Hundred Trillion Billion planets and chunks of rock, MINIMUM. Then there are moons with atmosphere and hydrospheres, like those around Jupiter and Saturn, THEY could possibly hold life long enough to make Aliens. Thats likely another few billion places for Aliens to live.


Your and my lack of information doesn't mean they don't exist all over the place.

Just maybe not here. Although I wonder about Pate and Locker.

And maybe you.


You got funny eyes there fella.




Edit: Pate:

But does a Logger want a Tree Worshipper teaching his Kids?


(HELL NO, F*#K the Tree Huggers!)






Further edit:


Cosmic, I got a big buddy I ride with. He is COVERED in hair. I think his great 10th power grand-daddy was a Neanderthal! Sure would explain a lot to me.
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 3, 2010 - 10:22pm PT
This is reported to be a real mission patch, and its one of my favorite.


Now is that GREAT or What?







































NOYFB -- None Of Your F*#king Business!

There are LOTS of classified missions in Space!


Edit: Thank GOD we finally got rid of Port. He contributed nothing but negative energy to this thread. Good riddance.

More like Muscatel than Port really.
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, California
May 3, 2010 - 10:29pm PT
"You got funny eyes there fella."





All the better to SEE you with,
my PRETTY.


Was Goliath part Nephilim? Gen: 6.4

Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 3, 2010 - 10:35pm PT
OT post:

So Cosmic, can/did they do Lasic of some sort on you? They won't do it on me ...
Flashy P

climber
Sparks, NV
May 3, 2010 - 10:43pm PT
I'm excited that the topic of making holds out of plastic came up finally.

I'd like to make some plastic holds out of natural material also. What is the most natural plastic to use?
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, California
May 3, 2010 - 10:45pm PT
I have really bad astigmatism.
and I can't go the regular lasik route.
So, I make do with glasses

Those glasses on my avatar are not my real glasses.
I just photoshopped this from this guy.
photo not found
Missing photo ID#156001
Flashy P

climber
Sparks, NV
May 3, 2010 - 10:48pm PT
Jongy was asking donini about making plastic holds, it seemed like he knew what he was talking about.

Is donini a comp climber?
stich

Trad climber
Colorado Springs, Colorado
May 3, 2010 - 11:32pm PT
This is worse than the image of Kermit the Frog on Mars near Alba Patera or the stupid face.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
May 3, 2010 - 11:43pm PT
I keep learning new stuff from this thread. Personally, I'm glad Klimmer started it.
And now thanks to Stich, I know that Kermit lives on Mars.

Tami

Social climber
Canada
May 3, 2010 - 11:46pm PT
Flashy - Donini is most certainly a comp climber. He'd like to comp his climbing .........I bet.




Carry on carrying on.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2010 - 11:54pm PT
Rokjox,


I've had these on my amazon.com wish list for sometime now. Haven't purchased them but would like too:

I Could Tell You But Then You Would Have to be Destroyed by Me: Emblems from the Pentagon's Black World [Hardcover]
Trevor Paglen
http://www.amazon.com/Could-Tell-Then-Would-Destroyed/dp/1933633328/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I1ONZDX3MP34OH&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G



Review
"A fascinating set of shoulder patches designed for the Pentagon's Black Ops programs."
—Stephen Colbert, The Colbert Report

“A glimpse of [the Pentagon’s] dark world through a revealing lens—patches—the kind worn on military uniforms.... The book offers not only clues into the nature of the secret programs, but also a glimpse of zealous male bonding among the presumed elite of the military-industrial complex. The patches often feel like fraternity pranks gone ballistic.”
—William Broad, The New York Times

“Gives readers a peek into the shadows ... Department of Defense spokesman Bob Mehal told Newsweek that it ‘would not be prudent to comment on what patches did or did not represent classified units.’ That’s OK. Some mysteries are more fun when they stay unsolved.”
—Karen Pinchin, Newsweek

"An art book that presents peculiar shoulder patches created for the weird and top secret programs funded by the Pentagon's black budget... an achievement."
—Timothy Buckwalter, The San Francisco Chonicle

"I was fascinated... [Paglen] has assembled about 40 colorful patch insignia from secret, military 'black' programs that are hardly ever discussed in public. He has plenty of regalia from the real denizens of Area 51."
—Alex Beam, The Boston Globe

"An impressive collection."
—Justin Rood, ABC News

"The iconography of the United States military. Not the mainstream military, with its bars and ribbons and medals, but the secret or 'black projects' world, which may or may not involve contacting aliens, building undetectable spy aircraft, and experimenting with explosives that could make atomic bombs look like firecrackers. Here, mysterious characters and cryptic symbols hint at intrigue much deeper than rank, company, and unit."
—UTNE Reader

"Of course, issuing patches for a covert operation sounds like a joke...but truth be told, these days everything is branded. Military symbols are frequently replete with heraldic imagery—some rooted in history, others based on contemporary popular arts that feature comic characters—but these enigmatic dark-op images, in some cases probably designed by the participants themselves, are more personal, and also more disturbing, than most."
—Steven Heller, The New York Times Book Review



Blank Spots on the Map: The Dark Geography of the Pentagon's Secret World [Bargain Price] [Hardcover]
Trevor Paglen
http://www.amazon.com/Blank-Spots-Map-Geography-Pentagons/dp/B002ACPM5E/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b


Top Secret Tourism: Your Travel Guide to Germ Warfare Laboratories, Clandestine Aircraft Bases and Other Places in the United States You're Not Supposed to Know About [Paperback]
Harry Helms
http://www.amazon.com/Top-Secret-Tourism-Laboratories-Clandestine/dp/1932595236/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b



There are many mission patches out there are "really way out there" that speak volumes about what they want to say but can't. Even the clandestine world likes to brag. Bragging is enherently human.
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 3, 2010 - 11:59pm PT
I saw those first two books just an hour ago, when I was looking very quickly for the mission patches. I think they have web sites too. I may have stolen a couple of the ones I posted from them.

Yes, I have actually seen a couple that I was told was for secret missions. But I don't hang with those people any more, so I will never know.



But can you imagine saying something didn't happen because they had a dumb looking mission patch?


That one had me cracking up, even while I was sending money off on Billpay to pay bills! And NOTHING makes me laugh when I am paying bills...

Phantom X

Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
May 4, 2010 - 12:28am PT
That's a good sized moonark! Is it secret?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2010 - 12:40am PT
Cosmiccragman asked . . .


Was Goliath part Nephilim? Gen: 6.4


Yes, many well learned Biblical scholars say so. His people were Nephalim.


I would like to eventually put up a list of links that goes into a great deal of incredibly interesting facts and evidence concerning The Hidden History of Mankind. There is much that the official world of Archeology, Anthropology, and Paleontology ignores that tell another possible story of our ancestry. Many probably think I'm coming up with this stuff in isolation on my own. Nope. There are many wonderful scholars and resources that go into this in detail.

Even the thought of the Nephalim escaping the Biblical Flood Off-World via a massive spacecraft Ark is not my original thought. Others have thought it through and came up with that scenerio. I think it is plausible too, if one accepts the Bible as truth and the Book of Enoch as the truth and a missing Book of the Bible, and also note - it was also found in the Caves with the Dead Sea Scrolls.

If one accepts the Bible as truth. If one accepts that Fallen Angels mated with mankind and had off-spring called Nephalim. If one accepts that some Nephalim somehow escaped the flood and survived afterwards. Then they would have had to go off-World to do so, since the Bible says the entire world was covered, yet some Nephalim were after the flood. Then the situation is plausible.

Yes, I'm aware that this scenerio is bat-poop nuts to many, but the only new piece that is added that is not found in any religious and sacred books is the escaping off-world in a massive Spacecraft (Space-Ark), and perhaps it crashed onto the farside of the Moon.


Hey, all I want is for NASA to provide the hi-res images without any hanky panky of the entire region in question, from the LRO images, and enough imagery of said region to view the object in hi-res 3D. Let me see the all the actual real images from LRO, and I will be a happy camper. If it is natural and nothing is there, so be it. If something massive is there and it does indeed have intelligently designed features and the look, then you have to ask Who? When? And Why? The Nephalim escaping Earth is a working Hypothesis for Christians to consider.


monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
May 4, 2010 - 01:17am PT
Cool, we're back to angels f*#king humans.

Why is that the angels always chose to be guys, Klimmer?

Or were there any that chose to be women?

Did they just not want to hang around pregnant for nine months?

This is what caused the old testament God to be angry and violent because the supernatural offspring were like throwing lightning bolts around and sh#t, right?

Was he also pissed off at the angels? Or was it like 'oh well, angels will be angels'?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 4, 2010 - 01:18am PT
Has nobody brought up the possibility that this 'ark' is some kind of digital artifact or just plain weird low angle lighting? Seems to me too that it might have been shot with film and then digitized thereby raising the chances of artifacts even higher.

Also, it seems highly unlikely to me that a culture sophisticated enough to travel how many light years would then 'blow the landing'.
skywalker

climber
May 4, 2010 - 01:25am PT
really? Let me rephrase that (please pause a second when you say it and assert yourself), REALLY??????

S......
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 4, 2010 - 01:28am PT
You didn't read my post above did you?


I suggest it might be deliberately left there as a landmark after either running out of fuel or ending its mission. A robotic craft would never be expected to return ever at all. No point.

And if its truly an ancient craft, it certainly would never have ever had anybody to contact anyway. Its only remaining use would have been exactly what we did with our cast off space junk. Stick a plaque on it and leave it where it sits, maybe to be found by somebody loong after we are gone.




And there is no reason to think that the craft (what craft? any craft) would be from very far away anyway. It could be from someplace close, or just a few dozen light years, just from Long, long ago. Nothing changes much on the moon for billions of years. Its inert, pretty much and airless and just sits there, slowly getting further and further away ...




Edit: If you think it might be a digital artifact or whatever, install Google Moon, and take a look. Join Klimmer and find or ask for the newest film. Its not a difficult problem really.

LOOK AT IT. It really is the only "ridge" that looks like it does for a LOOONG way around the area. I can't think of anything I saw that looks like it on the moon map.

A lot of guys are stuck in the same old sci-fi groove. They want FTL drives and alien transmitters and wars in modern real time. None of the basic data needs to suggest any of that. The basic question is simply what is it sitting in a crater that looks kinda artificial?

There are hundreds of possible hypotheses that can answer how something artificial and BIG got there. Even if its extra solar, which is not the only possibility! But a large, slow exploratory vessel from another world is NOT impossible. You don't NEED Faster than light drives to cross intersteller distances. You just need a reliable form of electronics and a long time to let it coast along. Then when it makes its observations, it transmits its collected data back home through any one of several light speed electromagnetic or photonic systems. In a few years the data is back home. When the ship runs out of power, the civilazation collapses or the mission is complete, you dump it. Its use if finished. Like the sh#t left on Mars, the Moon, or the other planets.

You really don't even need very good technology. Hell, we got a device almost ready to leave the solar system right now. And we are STUPID.
Weld_it

Trad climber
Chatsworth
May 4, 2010 - 01:29am PT
That "ark" looks a lot like a hold on my climbing wall that is sorta sloped and is a rad hang. Where did that Mexican dude go that was going to make the climbing holds go? I still have some qwetions about the mix and just what to use to make myown.
LithiumMetalman

Trad climber
cesspool central
May 4, 2010 - 01:30am PT
It's always good to keep the "skepticals" on, but not a closed mind.
Flashy P

climber
Sparks, NV
May 4, 2010 - 01:54am PT
I PM'd Jonga and he gave me his recipe for creating Mexican all natural climbing holds. By pouring a mixture of 1/4 Elmer's glue and 3/4 scented kitty litter into jello molds you can create some dab shapes.

To give them more stick you can apply heat prior to climbing.
Weld_it

Trad climber
Chatsworth
May 4, 2010 - 01:57am PT
that is so cool aobut the jello molds and hold mix. did he say white glue or the yellow stuff or who cares? how much heat and for how long?
Flashy P

climber
Sparks, NV
May 4, 2010 - 01:59am PT
He said that he uses the white Elmer's glue because he likes to sometimes eat a little bit when he's making them and says it tastes ok.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 4, 2010 - 02:07am PT
I have no doubt there were, are, and will be other civilizations in the universe - it's pretty clear from the fact we exist that it's imminently possible for life to flourish throughout the universe. I would guess off-hand that there are likely a multitude of civilizations capable of reaching orbit and beyond as a result.

That's not the issue - time travel is the issue - as is the energy budget required to construct any such an object in orbit, or to provide for interstellar propulsion. And what would be the point of such an object? You keep going on about this possibility and that possibility without so much a single plausible conjecture as to how such a thing could be even remotely possible or why.
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 4, 2010 - 02:07am PT
Thats so cute, Flashy Weldit. You are being jackasses, and everybody thinks you are just ...

Jackasses.










Their alien motivations might be hard to understand. We are talking presumable about an alien creature. But it could just be as simple as because they can. It might be as complicated as exploration.


WE are discovering hundreds of planets a year right now. With the new proposed James whatever stereo deep space telescope, we might be able to find many that don't have the extreme orbits that now our tech depends on. Were we able to send a research vessel to another system, we might just do it. After all, how different is that from sending observers to Uranus? We have done that. Even as primitive as we are, we have a craft that in a few more decades will leave the planetary orbital regions and enter the Oort clouds eventually. And that is without any propulsion system at all. Voyager has NO propulsion system, remember.


Given a little more experience as a real space faring race might refit some old piece of sh#t and sent it out just for the hell of it. Or build something for the purpose, who knows.



Just because a stupid, argumentative race that has had electricity for BARELY two hundred years can't do something, doesn't mean that a race that doesn't fight so much and is basically smarter, more compatible, more cooperative and maybe has had electricity for 1000 years (a short time) couldn't do it. And soon we/they will have beat our life spans back to a few hundred years. Certainly we can reach 130 years with our existing bodies, without too much genetic engineering.

Once a race gets GOOD at genetic engineering, I would expect them to chose NEW bodies anyway, no matter WHAT evolution gave them to start with. Who wants a body like ours? We sh#t, stink, and our organs are hard to replace when they fail. We can't jump, fly or run worth a sh#t either. I want something new RIGHT NOW.



Asking me to not keep giving you possible answers to problems you keep offering is a bit more than disingenious is it not? What do you want me to do, pretend I cannot imagine an answer? Give me a thousand more years to think about reasons and the science to have a lot MORE possibilities in my mind, and maybe I could give you some that would not only be right but make perfect sense and be COMPELLING.


Maybe there was something they needed, and they pulled it off.



But I think any craft send here would be a one way trip. Why bother returning if you had a compelling reason to come here in the first place, especially if you were using a robotic ship.


Nope, don't send whatever passes for people back home. Send eggs, seeds or just the genetic information. Or make even that up when you get here. MAKE whatever living creatures you might need once you get there (here). After all, we are almost to the point where we will be able to do that. We already got the entire genetic code for humans and a bunch of insects, some fishes and other creatures, and we just invented genetics a few decades ago.



What do you want from a big over grown pile of primitive monkeys? We have just gotten our teeth and you think we are going to have all the answers? In a few hundred years more, we might get smart enough to do it ourselves. And then we might say we are going to do it because we CAN. That it is our nature to explore the universe. That it is our destiny.

Then we might find a beautiful blue planet, somewhere, JUST within our reach. And when we get there with our 2 hundred year old robotic craft, we might just figgure out that we are a million years too late for there to be intelligent life there. Gee, Bummer.


On the other end of the stick ...

When they got here they discovered we were not yet. Too bad, in a million years WE might of been fun to talk to, but they will never know. So we/they dump our space craft, throughly used up, someplace where it just MIGHT get found someday, MAYBE. By somebody new. Stick a plaque on it and a recording of old Betoven, (the underwater Betoven) and wave bye-bye. We were a cool species of celeophods but we will never last long enough to say hi to the cool little pre-monkey marsupials. But we where there once upon a time!

Hi Monkeys! Remember us, we were cool! Bye BYE!


Weld_it

Trad climber
Chatsworth
May 4, 2010 - 02:10am PT
anything cool on mars?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2010 - 02:27am PT
YES.

Lots. I'm tired. I'm going to bed. Will post up stuff on Mars later . . .

How about that giant golfball GOD hit into the giant sand-trap of Mars though?







Aw geees, it is gonna take another FOIA request with the MRO - HiRISE imagery from NASA. Why can't we just see it all without begging NASA for it?
Weld_it

Trad climber
Chatsworth
May 4, 2010 - 02:29am PT
how do you know that is on mars and not in some dudes backyard?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 4, 2010 - 02:39am PT
Klimmer, NASA's most likely released everything they have... but if you want to waste your time, go ahead and file a FOIA... http://www.hq.nasa.gov/pao/FOIA/

or you can ask them to shoot a picture of your favorite area:
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/MRO/news/mro20100331.html

you can also stare at your ceiling and get a lot of really great patterns there too, or maybe the clouds (ever suspect that the way you "see" might be suggesting patterns that aren't what you perceive?).

I can send you a bumper sticker for your car... I need to get another one for 510 OW as the current one is pretty weathered, from the bumper sticker guy on Telegraph Ave:

"DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU THINK"

my guess is that you're way on the other side of that advice.
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 4, 2010 - 02:45am PT
(ever suspect that the way you "see" might be suggesting patterns that aren't what you perceive?).


actually yes.


Both LSD and Salvia Divinum have already suggested that to me.

I understand where the "information" in Rorchat patterns come from too. But what can you do? IGNORE the patterns your eyes show? THAT is a sure dead end to finding ANYTHING.

The mind finds the patterns, the mind asks the questions. NASA's job, funded by a third of a billion Americans, is to answer the questions we ask. Who has a better right to ask the questions than the people who are funding the project?

Show me more pictures, answer me more questions, and I may let you have some more money. If you make the project unpopular, you won't get ANY more money. We can shut you off. So take the pictures, like a nice, well paid young monkey, OK?

100,000 years we have had our exact same bodies as we do now. About twenty thousand years ago, we finally figured out how to make crops grow and animals stay in pens. And 5 thousand years ago, ore or less, we FINALLY discovered metal! And One thousand years ago, more or less, we discovered smelting STEEL once we figured out how to make coal burn HOT. And two hundred years ago, more or less, we discovered electricity and the marvels of OIL and began making motors using it. ONE hundred years ago, we figured out how to make electricity jump across a table and invented radio.


In a few thousand years, just a few thousand years, we may get mature enough to be polite with each other, and ask the right questions. Until then, we are remaining immature, rude and combative.

Look at Weld-it, Port and Flashy. They can't even let monkeys on a worthless free social network have a thread to them selves, and it's FREEE for them to take their bullshit to their OWN THREAD. All they have to do is show a LITTLE self restraint, and we could ALL have our own threads. A modern free Utopia. But NO. HELLL NO!

They are im-mature and have to throw their sh#t into OUR cage, because they can't amuse themselves without f*#king up somebody's else's wet dream.

They are a perfect example of the immature human racial profiles.

Stupid Monkeys. Its what's for dinner.


If we can't organize a social network of chimps, how can we say what a mature, cooperative and socially mature species might do for science and entertainment?
Weld_it

Trad climber
Chatsworth
May 4, 2010 - 03:02am PT
are you drinkning? I asked about mars and you got all hippy on us by saying you are getting high on saliva LOL
Until that mexican dude shows up I'll wait for the mars stuff. that ark thing is played out bra.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 4, 2010 - 03:06am PT
Look at Weld-it, port and flashy. they can't even let monkeys on a worthless free social network have a thread to them selves, and it's FREEE for them to take their bullshit to their OWN THREAD. All they have to do is show a LITTLE self restraint, and we could ALL have our own threads. But NO. They are im-mature and have to throw their sh#t into OUR cage, because they can't amuse themselves without f*#king up somebody's else's wet dream.

How about taking your bullshit to your own website where you can have your wet dream in peace? Klimmer posts this stuff here because he knows he will get us riled up.

They are a perfect example of immature racial profiles

Dude.......what are you talking about?
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 4, 2010 - 03:09am PT
No its not.


And I have pretty much stopped drinking even beer, it's a little expensive and I just do it with friends now. I got a couple sixers of cheaper weinharts, but haven't had a beer since last week. And the Salvia was years ago, and the LSD decades ago. But see, I have a memory that goes back before you were a piddle, and have been thinking about this stuff since long before your mother taught you to suck.

See, you think ten or twenty years is a long time. twenty years ago, you were a child, doing childish things. I was a thirty five year old man, doing man things. I know twenty years is a drop. I likely been driving longer than you have been wearing pants or eating hard food.


So I have had the time to think. You will learn, maybe. If you are lucky. You MAY be experimenting with it tonight, for all I know.


Edit: Port-stain, Klimmer wants to "talk" with you even less than I do. All you are is a constant interruption, like my three year old grand-daughter. Always asking irrelevant questions, interrupting the adults, making a scene and wanting to go to the bathroom.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 4, 2010 - 03:20am PT
RJ
NASA's job, funded by a third of a billion Americans, is to answer the questions we ask. Who has a better right to ask the questions than the people who are funding the project?

I don't think so... NASA's "job" isn't to respond to every nutjob in this country or any other country (although they do respond a lot, amazingly).

What does NASA do? (http://www.nasa.gov/about/highlights/what_does_nasa_do.html);

NASA's mission is to pioneer the future in space exploration, scientific discovery and aeronautics research.

it doesn't say anything about pandering to the lunatic fringe, though they're happy to do it if they think it helps them politically...
MeatBomb

Gym climber
Boise, I dee Hoe
May 4, 2010 - 03:20am PT
Are you meat sticks still at this? What a circle jerk of losers!

edit to clarify: not you Ed. Them other losers with their head in the clouds and asses in the air waiting for the alien probe from South Park.
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 4, 2010 - 03:28am PT
Oh Look. another grand-daughter.



Ed, that is exactly right. they do it because it helps them politically. And Politics is what gets them the tax dollars form the pockets of the third of a billion taxpayers. Taking a few extra requests will not hurt them. If the images were as easy to get to as the ones on Google Moon, they would have even less answering to do. And they may soon be. Its far more efficient to release them ASAP as to dole them out. The research can continue on the images and data long after they are released. It does not destroy the data having it in the public realm.



But of course, the scientists that make a living out of making discoveries don't want all the data getting released all at once ASAP. Then every inquiring mind in the word with a sufficient internet connection would have equal access, and some of those scientists might get claim jumped. It would destroy a slight advantage the inner circle have in access. Control of data maintains careers. It doesn't destroy the data, it destroys the exclusive access and control of the data.

It really IS about politics, not completely about science, isn't it?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 4, 2010 - 03:32am PT
Those scientists are actually doing science...

...and they spent a bit of time putting the missions together, designing the instruments, writing the codes to process the images, and to analyze them. They'd like to actually get to do some science after the 10+ years it takes to put a mission together before they are consumed with a bunch of wacky requests to look for "giant golf balls embedded in a martian sand trap."

Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 4, 2010 - 03:37am PT
They are paid to do all that stuff. Its not like its their equipment most of the time.


They can still make the instruments. Just release the data, ASAP. Then they could say "You have all the data there is at the moment". Do with it what you can. When more data comes in, we will give it to you, ASAP. In the meantime, don't bother me, I am picking mushrooms".



Look Ed, I am pretty sure there is no alien ship. If there is, it will be an incredible thing. But playing around with the question on ST is not something that should bring about harassment, or be discouraged. Without amateurs, an amazing amount of science would never have happened. Geology was invented by an amateur who made a map if a few miles of land, here and there. Just a hundred some years ago. I could look it up if you want.

Most astronomers were amateurs, and amateurs still find as many comets as professionals. A TON of actual science has been performed by amateurs, and a ton of new ideas developed. Science depends on the amateur, or it used to, before so much money got into it, and all the big corporations got into the game. Nowadays, if you want to do research, you join a corporation or a university who will take all the patents they can devise, leaving the professional "scientist" a paid employee with little stake other than his reputation in the game.

Klimmer an I ain't likely to make a big dent, but that doesn't mean some body else hanging around might not get a good one.

Hell, even YOU got a chance to think of something clever, if you are lucky. You are getting old, but not EVERY good idea has come from a young man.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 4, 2010 - 03:37am PT
But you never attempt to even suggest answers to any of what I'm talking about. The problem with these sorts of discussions is that the participants never seem to be able to concurrently grasp and hold onto all three of the critical factors involved - the requisite distance, energy, and time scales. That seems once again to be the case here. In the case of this proposition you can't even seem to figure out how one might get it into orbit for a journey.

So let's play 'what if' with a like-sized cylinder of Titanium or something with similar structural qualities and mass:

Length: 5,000 Meters
Outer Diameter: 700 Meters
Inner Diameter: 690 Meters

What's that work out to in the way of volume of material and mass to source, refine, manufacture, and get to orbit:

Enclosed volume: 54,585,172.356 m3

Mass:

245,633,275,603 kg
541,528,676,073 lbs
270,764,338 tons

Given Earth's annual production of titanium-relatied ores / dioxides is about 5 million tons and that takes a shitload of energy to mine and process, let alone fabricate and send to orbit, it would seem to be quite a proposition even for an energy rich civilization. Even magically producing enough titanium from a moon would be a fantastical stretch of the imagination.
MeatBomb

Gym climber
Boise, I dee Hoe
May 4, 2010 - 03:38am PT
Rokjox, honest question: are you on any drugs now, prescribed or otherwise, and does your family know what you do here on the forum for hours a day?
MisterE

Social climber
Across Town From Easy Street
May 4, 2010 - 03:40am PT
People just don't understand me - why, oh why?

Maybe if I try harder, they will see what is so glaringly obvious.
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 4, 2010 - 04:04am PT
Develop the minerals from a metal rich asteroid already in orbit, hollow it out and never let it touch a gravity well too deep to climb out of. Send it off on it way using all the clever energy producing gravity well maneuvers voyager used without any propulsion at all. Only this one actually has an ion cannon and a few tons of plutonium to power it. Add a light sail for the first ten years or so. Maybe boost the light sail with a laser cannon, what do I know how hard it might be to produce enough energy for them to power a laser for ten/twenty years? The orbital power cable tether experiment seems to be reported to have developed so much power in the first few minutes of operation that it burned itself out, maybe power the laser with that or off an orbital tether. Hell, lots of hydrogen in the gas giants, think of some way to tap that too.

Long slow trip, take a couple hundred years. Hell, take three hundred for a long trip. Cruise like a Mexican teenager in his dads car heading down the strip with five bucks in his pocket. No hurry. Use almost all your fuel constantly to get there, constant low acceleration the majority of the way. Use solar and planetary gravity wells at your destination to slow it down, not so much engine thrust. You got no life forms on board at that time, so G forces are of less worry, just don't bust up your ship. Don't need to have much fuel once you get there, you ain't going back, ever.

Communications with the autonomous computer is easy, round trip communication takes only a few decades after all that time, and most communication is one way anyway. From the ship to the guys back home. Say fifteen maybe twenty years, that is the only thing that works at light speed, radiation with data, either photonic or electromagnetic, maybe at the nice quiet part of the radio dial. Its up to the boys back home to dig the signal out of the deep.

Life spans will be so much longer with a really advanced society that the original ground crew may still have surviving members. Nobody rides the spacecraft.


But a better civilization will have better answers than I can give you as a primitive monkey. After all, we have only even considered actual space travel for a period of about of one short native, primitive, unenhanced monkey lifetime. When our society has worked on it for 50 or a hundred lifetimes, I will give you much better answers. The guys that did it are some kind of grey aquatic lizards anyway, eh? How/why the hell should I know how they did it? Do I look like a grey aquatic lizard?










Meatball. Nothing you ask is of interest to me or a damn bit of your business. But to humor you ONCE, I will tell you.


No I have had NO drugs stronger than ibuprofen in my system for a couple weeks. The ibuprofen is for almost constant low nagging pain I am in, just a side effect of a loong life spent doing exciting, dangerous things, and occasionally crashing and burning.

Because I have few bucks coming in right now, and major expenses of two houses, I have cut many things WHAY back. My wife and I don't eat out, we don't buy Eagles tickets, and I do the car repairs, though I hate cars. I eat a lot less meat than I didi even a year ago, we don't buy much bottled flavored water, though that was my wife's pleasure, and I don't buy a lot of expensive presents any longer for the kids and grandkids. Cars are all paid for, and I ain't car crazy, my cars are old, cheap and efficient. I got a garden this year the size of a three car garage.


None of your f*#king business, and I resent your impertinent questions, but I drink little now, almost nothing, though I used to like to. I haven't been doing "drugs" for decades now, other than a little weed I used to get, and I don't buy that any longer. I eat out little, though I used to like to, and I don't take care of my physical problems like I used to, though I should. My doctor is an old guy like me, he has known me for years, and he charges me very little, but I don't buy pharmaceuticals, even when I should. I mostly just live with the pain, and let broken parts heal in their own time. When I break a bone, I know it. I visit the doc, maybe, but so far nothing has needed setting or casting, so I just be living with insomnia and pain. Drugs are over-rated.

Both of those things are a function of age anyway. Old men have trouble sleeping, and old men often live with pain. Old men are TOUGHER than young men in every way.

Things are tight for a lot of people lately, and a lot of people do things different than they did even a few years ago. I DO have the resources to last a few more years like this if I need to, but a smart man tries to live within his income, not his resources.


And how in the hell could I keep my wife from knowing almost EVERYTHING I do? I have tried for years, and it NEVER has worked. If you were married Meatsack, you would know that you can't keep ANYTHING much from a good wife. She is not only knowledgeable of this hobby, she supports it. Its cheap thrills. Like my bike, already paid for. Or my radios, likewise paid for. Being old has certain advantages Meatball. I got my world thought out.



So if you are QUITE finished with your nosy and rude bullsh#t, if I have QUITE satisfied your curiosity, you can drop dead and/or get lost now; Capish?



I would FAR rather waste my time with the diversion and fun questions that are ON TOPIC for THIS THREAD! It passes time when I am not fixing cars, mowing my BIG yard over and over or other household duties, like keeping track of the grandkids or planting the garden.

And that isn't really a question. That is FAR more than your impertinent ass deserves. You don't know me, why the hell do you think you do enough to make such insinuation? I am not a drunk or a druggie of any sort. Not that its your problem.


Edit: Its 3 am local. The topo is dead, and I got nothing else to do. TV is all about paid advertisements for jewelry and exercise machines. Maybe its time to see if I can get some sleep tonight.



healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 4, 2010 - 05:09am PT
Well, I don't care how advanced or how long they live - amassing that much material from any source to produce an interstellar capable craft for any purpose would require more than hollowing out passing junk. And talking energy:

Accelerating one ton to one-tenth of the speed of light requires at least 450 PJ or 4.5 × 1017 J or 125 billion kWh, not accounting for losses

That would make powering our little visitor rack up about:

33,845,542,250,000,000,000 kWh

And 1/10th SOL would really only really be for commuting around the immediate galactic neigborhood.
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 4, 2010 - 05:19am PT
So maybe they started closer to OUR home. Maybe they were the last great grey aquatic lizards of Calisto. About one million years ago. Or some place else in the immediate neighborhood, like 25 -- 30 light years. There are over a hundred stars in 20 light years.

(All the following for a while is taken from www.atlasoftheuniverse.com)

Here is the map of SOL-like stars within 50 light years that we know of right now. This is a map of every (our sun-like) star within 50 light years visible with the naked eye from Earth. There are over 133 stars marked on this map. Most of these stars are very similar to the Sun and it is probable that there are many Earth-like planets around these stars. There are roughly 1400 star systems within this volume of space!




Looks like maybe a couple hundred possible planets/habitable moons, whatever, easy? Maybe a THOUSAND habitable environments, if we were lucky??



Or maybe there is a way that the primitive Healyje monkey hasn't thought of?


And KILOWATT HOURS??? Why not just express it in candlepower? Or flashlight batteries? Kilowatt hours is a ridiculously small measurement. And its not a measurement of energy at all. Its a measurement of a SMALL amount of POWER, a different thing. Using a better unit would make those zeros disappear.

But even then ...

... here is WATT (pun) Wiki answers says about the conversion of a Hiroshima blast (a SMALL atomic bomb) into kilowatt hours ...

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090109060930AABrkRo

Question: How many Watts are produced in the release of an atomic weapon? ?
Based on the size of the bomb dropped on Hiroshima. I know that different atomic and nuclear devices will produce vastly different results. are a measure of power, not energy. Your electric bill probably uses the unit of "kilowatt-hours" which is the amount of energy used in one hour if your power usage is 1000 watts.

Answer:
The Wiki reference below gives a Joule equivalent value for a megaton of TNT (4.2 x 10^15 Joules / megaton).
1 Joule (written "J") is 1 watt-second.
1 kWh (kilowatt-hour) is 1000 x 3600 Watt-seconds or 3.6x10^6 J
4.2 x 10^15 J/megaton / 3.6x10^6 J/kWh = 1.16x10^9 kWh/megaton.
The Hiroshima bomb was "only" 15 kilotons, or 0.015 megatons.
0.015 megatons x 1.16x10^9 kWh/megaton = 1.75x10^7 kWh
or 17 million kWh for the Hiroshima blast.

So 17 million kWh is 17 million kilowatts of power for a duration of an hour. That's the same as saying 17x10^6 kilowatts for an hour or 17x10^9 watts for an hour. But if the duration of the power producing explosion is 1 millionth of an hour, the power would be 17x10^15 watts. You could make a bright light with that. (you'll have to find the true duration of the light-producing explosion. You'll have to scale the power accordingly).


Divide your figure by 17x10^9 power. I'll let you handle the basic math, like you said right? It should add up to a lot of baby hiroshima sized bombs. The exact number is unimportant. Nobody will use inefficient Hiroshima sized bombs. All blast and no ion power drives, and too short of period of power production.





I would think in terms of conversion of mass into energy at 90% plus efficiency. Direct, continuous conversion into thrust. A far more likely outcome of really, actually, advanced engineering, eh?


How many tons of dirt (mass) would that need at 95% efficiency? Maybe not so much Eh? Lots of energy in mass conversion. Maybe enough to not even have to worry, you might be able to add to your fuel supply using gas in interstellar space somehow, even.

A more interesting figure is how long at one G it would take to build up to 1/10 light speed? Twenty years? NO! one and a half MONTHS! Thats not long on a two hundred year journey. Coast along like a lowrider making the stoplights ...


Lets see. This site http://ramblingsonthefutureofhumanity.blogspot.com/2008/07/humanity-prison-speed-of-light.html says:
A year of 1-G acceleration gets you close to the speed of light,

So we wouldn't need that much acceleration, Light speed is too fast by a bunch, all kind os problems at light speed. Lets say 2/10 a G for one year to get to 2/10th light speed. Or one G for two and a half months... 2/10s light speed gets the job done. That is faster and easier than I imagined. Coasting all the way at 2/10s Light speed ...

Then a fifty light year radius would take 250 years, one way, and only the first few months would be under power. Two tenths of a G for a few year doesn't sound like much for a real whizz bang civilization. Or even 1 G for ten weeks. Especially if a lifespan got up to one hundred fifty years. Or more for grey aquatic lizards. Or even people. Under two life spans.

A determined civilization might wait that long, they got nothing else to do but exist, hang out and wait. At HOME. For answers. And fifty years max to get the data back by radio or laser.. 300 years plus a little for the research at max range. Hell we have two year missions, even 20 year missions, and we are beginners. And ignorant monkeys.

HOW long has voyager been traveling? We are still getting data back from that and tracking it.

And they might make it a little faster if they could keep their power up. But not much faster, the power requirements go WHAY up as speed increases. Maybe the practical time limit might be closer to 30 light years radius ...

Of course, computers may inherit the universe. Less limits for the computers. No passengers, just smart computers built to look like ships. REAL smart computers. Maybe go at 5 G for two weeks, then coast. Computer would not mind 200 years maybe, just shut itself down way low ...


I think its possible.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 4, 2010 - 05:48am PT
And none of that takes into account the intelligence, energy, or systems necessary to brake and do a soft landing on the moon. Again all implausible.
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 4, 2010 - 06:07am PT
Uh, gravity well maneuvers to slow down, or another 10 weeks at ONE G to come to zero. Or twenty weeks at 1/2 G. Just five months at half the speed you accelerated at. MAybe you don't have those laser to help you stop that the guys back home helped you accelerate with.

How many tons of matter at 95% conversion again?


Maybe not be all that much. Lots of power in a ton of dirt using direct conversion to thrust.


Check the figures above, I got them off the internet.

Intelligence? Intelligence doesn't weigh much. How much intelligence do you need to calc a simple orbit around a sun??? Apollo did it with 8086's, and not many of them. Grey aquatic lizards with a thousand years of computer use should have pretty good computers, if they can make a ship go 50 light years on its own ... Dead simple to calc orbits.

A computer would have no problem figuring out the orbit to achieve a Lunar orbit, how smart a computer would it need be? You wouldn't ever place your ship on the ground until you were trashing it. After the end of your one way mission. Why would you want your computer controlled robot ship to SOFT LAND on the moon? Nothing down there you need. No crew to walk around... Ship would stay in space, its natural environment until it was out of fuel. Why would a computer need to land on a moon with a giant ship? Once the ship is down it is dead. Cant leave the surface again.

So a slightly controlled crash is adequate for leaving a pile of junk for a potential race in a million years that you aren't even sure will ever rise up... All you want is a record, after the mission, and the craft itself would be sufficient for that. Maybe that plaque on the outside ...







Actually, I don't think it sounds like you have even looked at my answer... Open your eyes Healyje and READ what I posted, guy.


Implausible? Maybe. Although a Alien race with a lot more smarts than us might not be so implausible? Their motivations may not be the same as ours.

Certainly not impossible. Actually, It seems more possible the more I read about it. Finding out some of the facts about how many possible Planets and Moons in 50 Light years encouraged me, and how fast a 1/2 G drive could achieve 1/10 light speed make me more hopeful than when I started. Just a few weeks, then shut down your drive and coast. A two hundred year mission is well within the range of a good computer system. Don't need no stinking lizards on board, no life support, no food, no boredom!




Did you READ what I posted Healyje?

Tomorrow I will look up how much energy is contained in a ton of mass. 90-95% conversion drive may be possible with a GOOD understanding of E=mc^2 We have only had 70 years and look what we did with that.


(4:40 am local time, I should be tired enough to get some sleep now, until my wife wakes me up at 8 AM ...)
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 4, 2010 - 07:40am PT
Yes I have and again I don't find any of it remotely plausible as an explanation for Klimmer's interstellar Titanic.
Pate

Trad climber
May 4, 2010 - 09:06am PT
This thread has become the definition of stupidity.
stich

Trad climber
Colorado Springs, Colorado
May 4, 2010 - 09:24am PT
No way!

War is stupid!

This is...



fantasy!!!!
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 4, 2010 - 09:27am PT
Ah Stich another F word....fantasy. Along with "faith" they lead to actions that Pate rightly describes as stupidity.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2010 - 09:51am PT
Oh-kay, let's get back on track . . .


Yea, I may be seeing patterns that aren't really there, but then so are a million other people . . .

Massive Moon Object that amazingly looks like a massive ship and casts a shadow . . .

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/frame/?AS15-P-9625

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/frame/?AS15-P-9630




And there are many official images of said object in the NASA archives, yet all are amazingly at low res. Why? And why the heck do they keep taking images of said object and fly right over it and take even more? Yep, it is just an uninteresting ridge next to an impact crater. C'mon. Something is there that is massive.

I just want the same region at hi-res using the new LRO images. Is that so much to ask? I'm not asking NASA to interpret them. Just release the dang images.



Regarding the image of the massive "3D golf ball" on Mars . . . Someone said how do we know it wasn't taken in someone's backyard?

http://ida.wr.usgs.gov/html/m15012/m1501228.html





Once again, I'm not asking for NASA to interpret, I just want the MRO HiRISE images released publically of said region on Mars and let us have a detailed look-see. Again, is that so much to ask?

I want to be able to dial in and look at the detail, just as we now can do so for the Apollo Mission sites and see the Astronaut foot paths in the Lunar regolith. But I want to be able to do so for these 2 very interesting regions. One on the Moon, and one on Mars.

And make these images public so everyone can have a detailed look-see, not just a few people. Why not do so with the entire archive of the newest images? Make it a searchable database by lat./long. We paid for it. These images belong to the people.


WBraun

climber
May 4, 2010 - 09:53am PT
Ah yes, stupidity the big bad climber says ...

Another F word, ... faith.

Just see the climber have faith that he'll make it to the top of the big mountain.

Then when he reaches the top after all that suffering only to come back down and start all over again because he never found the real answer.

Stupidity ...... it swings in every direction.

Jongy

Gym climber
Ciudad Juárez, Ch Mexico
May 4, 2010 - 10:57am PT
I am over here weld_it. what's your question? I have some myself. Where did that donini person run off to? it seems like he was going to help me.

I'm not mexican though.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Why'djya leave the ketchup on the table?
May 4, 2010 - 11:10am PT
If someone told the Donner Party, at their departure from St Louis, that someday (soon) they could walk into a hollow metal tube, close the door and fly through the air, to California, in a little over 3 hours time, eating lousy, expensive food (but its not PEOPLE).

They would have and could have come up with all sorts of 'that's impossible' scenarios.

And they would have been right. But a hundred seventy some odd years later.... things have changed.

Just as our current notions of the cosmos will change. WILL change.

Its easy to use covered wagon technology to dismiss commercial transcontinental flight.

DMT
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
May 4, 2010 - 11:14am PT
"I would think in terms of conversion of mass into energy at 90% plus efficiency."

hmm, hydrogen fusion to helium (this powers the Sun) is the most efficient conversion of mass into energy we know about. What do you think that efficiency is? (answer 0.7%)

"A year of 1-G acceleration gets you close to the speed of light,"

OK, but don't forget F=ma. And when you are calculating the force to generate your 1-G acceleration don't forget special relativity! mass(relativistic)=mass/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2)

This last equation as v approaches c is the big problem.

EDIT: However, I bow to DMT's post. I'd love to be able to see the equivalent of Wikipedia a thousand years from now. Who knows what we are going to know about the Universe then.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
May 4, 2010 - 11:37am PT
Its easy to use covered wagon technology to dismiss commercial transcontinental flight.

Funny, I was having a randomly opposite thought last month as I looked out the window on a transcontinental flight. A relatively new 737, it was. If my younger self could time travel from a seat on one of the first jet airliners, a 707, half a century back -- I think I'd be surprised and disappointed by how *little* has changed.

The speed of sound is still there, the stratosphere is still thin, and it still ain't practical to fly an airliner any faster or higher than it was in 1960. Not only that but they *look* almost the same, apart from having 2 engines instead of 4.

Similar thoughts looking around at a highway or a home -- so much has not changed, where did the future go? Biggest change might be the digital stuff (now Avatar, that looks different!), but it's not so obvious at first. Lots of everyday mechanical things, from our cars to telephones and tvs, show incremental improvement but fall miles short of the Jetsons. And it's clear now that we're never gonna get there, never ride that spaceliner to Mars. Much less Alpha C.

Alas.
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
May 4, 2010 - 11:51am PT
I don't know Chiloe, I think you need to think about 100 and 1000 and 10000 year increments.

On the other hand, it is hard for us humans on our little speck out in the boondocks of the Galaxy to get a real sense of the huge scale of the solar system, much less the solar neighborhood or the Galaxy. Human space flight to Mars is a huge challenge. It is really beyond anything we can imagine doing right now to travel to the nearest stars. But, wait 1000 years and the story will be different for sure.
Flashy P

climber
Sparks, NV
May 4, 2010 - 11:56am PT
Hi Jongy, I stayed up almost all night last night making Elmer's glue Kitty Litter holds. The first batch came out not so good, so I used a different type of kitty litter, Fresh Step instead of the bulk stuff from the PetCo. It has a great consistency and the finished holds released from the jello molds perfectly. Right now I am heating them with a butane torch to see if I can get them nice and sticky.

I sent an email to donini asking if he preferred yellow glue or Elmer's but he hasn't gotten back yet.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
May 4, 2010 - 12:10pm PT
It is really beyond anything we can imagine doing right now to travel to the nearest stars. But, wait 1000 years and the story will be different for sure.

For sure, it will. One way or another.
Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 4, 2010 - 12:18pm PT
Like I said, light speed is too fast. All that relitivity stuff causes problems, and it takes more and more energy to go even a little bit faster. 1/5 Light speed is fast enough to make it all happen for research craft, given 100 to 250 years. And with the coming increases in longevity, that isn't so long.

And I thought of a way to beat all that. As long as we are into fantasy if E=Mc^2, then M=E/c^2 and c^2=M/E! That means that C= SQR(M/E)!

I'll let Healyje figure out what that means, because he is good with basic math, but maybe it can be used to give us that light speed drive. I wouldn't know.




But while a sun may give fusion in nature as a natural process, it doesn't give total mass conversion. THe Sun is INEFFICIENT! A scientific process that would give us mass conversion would release 99.3% more energy out of a pound of coal than the sun gets? COOL!

I know just where that could be useful. And the incredible amounts of radiation that would release can just be dumped into deep space, with almost no shielding, because our spacecraft is only got machines on board, no people! Or Weird Squid from the water planet.



Glad I could solve that for you.

HEY, Healyje wants me to make the entire spacecraft and propulsion system AND the computer before I leave my desk. Thats not fair. What's HE gonna invent today?

He doesn't BELIEVE in my answer, and it doesn't explain Klimmers spacecraft anyway? Well, La-De-DAH! EXCUSSSE ME! I thought this was just brainstorming up some fantasy here. It MIGHT explain his Spacecraft, if it IS a spacecraft. I don't know, can't get a good look at it, yet.

Healyje can't deny that he doesn't know if it can be done either, he just knows that HE can't do it today.

Nothing I suggested is impossible, violates known space laws or needs magic. Give us another thousand years of thinking, and I can come up with better, I promise you. Or give us a spacecraft laying dead for a million years on the moon ...


A thousand years ago, we were really, really smart. We had been thinking for easily 99,000 years with precisely modern brains, and we had invented agriculture and had pigs and sheep trained to run around being chased by dogs. We could whittle wood pretty good, and had become really, really good at stacking rocks. In fact, we stacked rocks better then, than we can stack them today! We had Iron, and had just started getting a "handle" on steel, using it mostly to cut other peoples heads off. Writing was known by less that 1% of the population, but books clearly were going to be the coming form of IT, soon as we could come up with a way to make them without using a pencil or quill.


In the last 200 years, we figured out more stuff than in the last 99,800 years put together, using the newest thing in "Information Tech-know-logy", the Scientific Method.

We are a young, primitive species, still living in our Original Monkey suits, and we are just beginning to learn to think good. Even a little good. But as Clint Eastwood says, " ... the future is coming on ...!"

Yep Science is clearly going to be the latest big deal, just as soon as we get a decent "handle" on it! And I Really, REALLY look forward to what we can do with genetics. I want to run faster, jump higher and live longer.

A lot longer. Einstein's big problem was that the little Jewish thinker squirt died WHAY TOOO soon. He never finished his favorite ideas!

Maybe Healyje can take his place? Someone will.






[quote]Clint Eastwood -- Gorillaz

I'm happy, I'm feeling glad
I got sunshine, in a bag
I'm useless,but not for long
The future is coming on
I'm happy, I'm feeling glad
I got sunshine, in a bag
I'm useless, but not for long
The future is coming on ...
... It's coming on ...
... It's coming on ...
... It's coming on ...

Yeah... Ha Ha!
Finally someone let me out of my cage
Now, time for me is nothing cos I'm counting no age
Now I couldn't be there
Now you shouldn't be scared
I'm good at repairs
And I'm under each snare
Intangible

Bet you didn't think, so I command you to
Panoramic view
Look, I'll make it all manageable
Pick and choose
Sit and lose
All you different crews
Chicks and dudes
Who you think is really kickin' tunes?
Picture you gettin' down in a picture tube
Like you lit the fuse

You think it's fictional
Mystical? Maybe
Spiritual
Hearable
What appears in you is a clearer view cos you're too crazy
Lifeless
To know the definition for what life is
Priceless
For you, because I put you on the hype sh#t
You like it?
Gunsmokin' righteous with one token
Psychic among those
Possess you with one go

I'm happy, I'm feeling glad
I got sunshine, in a bag
I'm useless,but not for long
The future is coming on
I'm happy, I'm feeling glad
I got sunshine, in a bag
I'm useless, but not for long
The future is coming on ...
... It's coming on ...
... It's coming on ...
... It's coming on ...
/quote]



Flashy P

climber
Sparks, NV
May 4, 2010 - 12:18pm PT
Here are two jello molds I used that were inspired by this awesome thread.