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bmacd
Trad climber
Beautiful, BC
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Apr 11, 2010 - 11:49pm PT
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CougarLife.com = 1000 Tami's
Anders, signup now ....
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 12, 2010 - 12:57am PT
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That picture looks kinda like Bricks.
I haven't visited the virtual museum, but any attempt at telling the story of BC mountaineering by looking through the lens of club membership seems kind of silly.
BCMC? ACC? Sure, there was plenty of climbing done on club trips, but there was, and is, just as much done by climbers. Not club members, just climbers.
And about the cabin thing, Tami's probably just pissed because Rat Hall doesn't feature prominently in museum.
D
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 12, 2010 - 01:12am PT
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David, the virtual museum 'exhibit' primarily relates to the period from the late 19th century, through the 1960s and 1970s. So is somewhat oriented toward what the BCMC and ACC and their members were doing, given that they had a finger in most of what was being done during that period. Yes, there's more to the story than that, e.g. in the 1960s the energy of the baby boomers in the VOC, and the appearance of independent climbers. (Jim Baldwin may have been one of the first.) But what's there is an interesting initiative, even if a bit too club-oriented, and can be added to.
Glad to see there's some interest in this subject - I hoped there would be. It's probably impossible to satisfy anyone let alone everyone with any museum display, let alone a new-fangled virtual display, but it illustrates the sort of thing that's possible. You can't fit everything in, of course, and historiography eventually rears its head.
Just back from a full day working on a project at Squamish. Cleaning an old route on the Apron, called Slab Alley. The first route on our Apron, done in 1961 by Jim Baldwin and Tony Cousins. The current phase is to physically clean up the route, restore the existing/accepted bolts (ten total), and consider options. The idea being to recreate a moderate and reasonably manageable independent route on the Apron. The 1961 route, done in mountain boots, involved some fierce slab climbing for the time.
There's some pretty cool virtual history on the YCA site - www.yosemiteclimbing.org
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 12, 2010 - 01:37am PT
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I went with Bricks, Bob milward and pete shackleton
Wow. If you were to try to come up with three guys about whom stories could be told until the End of Days, those three would have to be at the top of the list.
I can't even begin to remember how many times Pete Shack said "Oh, I don't know. I'm really out of shape right now. No way I can climb/run/ride worth a sh#t. I don't know if I should even go out. You'll have to wait for me all day..." And then he'd just smoke me on whatever the day's adventure was. Master sandbagger.
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Tricouni
Mountain climber
Vancouver
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Apr 12, 2010 - 01:50am PT
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Ghost:
I haven't visited the virtual museum, but any attempt at telling the story of BC mountaineering by looking through the lens of club membership seems kind of silly.
BCMC? ACC? Sure, there was plenty of climbing done on club trips, but there was, and is, just as much done by climbers. Not club members, just climbers.
The virtual museum thing (in which I had no hand, didn't know about it until a week ago) is simply one window on things. It comes, in part, out of the BCMC centennial video and related research, and partly out of the fact that the museum and the BCMC both have extensive archives of photos, diaries, etc. by early BMCM members. I hope they can expand the site to include the ACC, the BCMC, the RRC, the VOC, the FSSSCC, and the unaffiliated (to use an AAC term). It's a start; we can either mock it or suggest how to improve it.
But most climbing wasn't done on club trips, not then, not now. As I said above, some people were in one club, some in another, some in both, and some in no club. Some of the best climbers didn't need the clubs: they met like-minded friends outside the clubs. Many people meet friends, learn some basic skills, and quickly outgrow the clubs.
But others (Culbert, me, Fyles, Carter, Beckey, Clarke many others) found our climbing partners through the assorted clubs. We learned basic skills and mostly moved on. Many quit the clubs; others kept up memberships but didn't take much of an active role. We may have moved on, but loyalty to the clubs can remain: the BCMC certainly changed my life, and I met my wife through the VOC. I don't think I've been on a club trip in 40 years, but I still sign my name in summit records "Glenn Woodsworth, BCMC."
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 12, 2010 - 10:04am PT
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I hope they can expand the site to include the ACC, the BCMC, the RRC, the VOC, the FSSSCC
And the Lobsters. Can't really talk about mountaineering in BC without The Red Lobsters Mountaineering Club.
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Chief
climber
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Apr 12, 2010 - 11:14am PT
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I've seldom been inspired or impressed by the "Beard Stroking, Pontificating Clubbers".
(I had an encounter with one of their senior ilk at the Lake Lovelywater hut a few years ago that left me disgusted to this day)
Hugh Burton's account of their ascent of the Cassin (Hugh apparently wore jeans over his capilene) or being chased off the North Howser by a wild lightning storm after climbing Warrior are much more inspiring examples of BC Mountaineering.
Perry
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bmacd
Trad climber
Beautiful, BC
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Apr 12, 2010 - 12:07pm PT
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I took the BCMC crevasse rescue and glacier travel course in the 70's. I think clubs perform a great service helping people get started and connect with like minded others. For those commenting above whom are "born to climb" (Homo Alipnus) clubs serve little purpose.
50 years ago the club thing would have been a much different atmosphere than today I think. Certainly the historical aspect of club archives are valuable to all.
I think this "Climbing to the clouds" should focus on the history of climbing on the coast. The rockies is already well documented. The coast historical fragments are still scattered in the attics of individuals, be they club members or not.
 http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=phyllis+munday&aq=f
A major project to collate it all.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 12, 2010 - 12:09pm PT
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I've seldom been inspired or impressed by the "Beard Stroking, Pontificating Clubbers". (I had an encounter with one of their senior ilk at the Lake Lovelywater hut a few years ago that left me disgusted to this day)
Which brings up another interesting point. While it's true that in the very early days climbing clubs had a big impact -- in the sense that club members going on club trips actually did some serious climbing -- I think it's also true that the clubs have sometimes stood in the way of climbing. Or at least, because of their stodgy atmosphere and sometimes restrictive approach, driven away many climbers. Clubs have rules, a lot of climbers hate the idea of rules being applied to climbing.
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Tricouni
Mountain climber
Vancouver
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Apr 12, 2010 - 12:12pm PT
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Chief wrote:
I've seldom been inspired or impressed by the "Beard Stroking, Pontificating Clubbers".
(I had an encounter with one of their senior ilk at the Lake Lovelywater hut a few years ago that left me disgusted to this day)
I've met plenty of that type, too, with similarly disgusting results. Oddly enough, one of the worst was at the Lake Lovelywater hut - something in the water there? And one at the Gunks.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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Apr 12, 2010 - 12:51pm PT
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"Beard Stroking, Pontificating Clubbers"
Thank heavens we've none of those here!
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Chief
climber
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Apr 12, 2010 - 01:04pm PT
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My comments about the clubs was about some people in some local clubs and not mountaineering clubs in general.
One of my first trip into the mountains was with Peter Croft and a couple people on an Island Mountain Ramblers outing. It changed my and now that I think about it, Tom DeGroot had a beard and he did stroke it a lot and did pontificate.
Dave Robert's exploits with the Harvard Mountaineers stand out as early inspirations for me.
Locally, the Auger/Tate Woodsworth effort on U Wall stands out as a club effort that set the highest big wall standards of the day.
That puke at Lovelywater just happens to represent an arrogant "upper crust" mentality that stimulates my hurl reflex.
Respectfully,
PB
ps. Rudy's frikkin high!
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bmacd
Trad climber
Beautiful, BC
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Apr 12, 2010 - 01:16pm PT
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Pate 90% is a ridiculous figure. The peaks are rated by prominence on this site
The website is not a simple wiki. It is a geographic information system, organized by lat-long. This means searches are not based on placenames, they are based on geographic proximity. This is important, because hundreds of the articles involve mountains that are unnamed
http://www.bivouac.com/default.asp
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Tricouni
Mountain climber
Vancouver
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Apr 12, 2010 - 01:32pm PT
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I was once told by Rudy Beglinger about the number of unclimbed summits in BC, both the Coastal Range and interior; he said over 90% of the peaks were unclimbed, and named with only numbers. Is that true?
Depends what you mean by a peak. There are still plenty of small summits that have never been climbed, including many with names. 90% is far too high. Plenty of small, hard pinnacles. Even a few relatively high-prominence (for the region), hard peaks remain, but you have to know where they are!
Most summits in the Coast Mtns don't have names, so people just talk about "Peak 9535" when they talk about them at all. The owners of Bivouac.com have taken to wandering around (electronically) with a big salt-and-pepper shaker full of useless names, sprinkling liberally. Don't get me started....
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MH2
climber
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Apr 12, 2010 - 01:58pm PT
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I was once a member of a club that now belongs in a museum.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 12, 2010 - 02:08pm PT
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I recently read the first volume of Royal Robbins' autobiography, To Be Brave. It's well written and interesting, mostly about his youth, framed by his solo ascent of the Leaning Tower in 1963. One interesting aspect is his introduction to mountaineering and climbing, through the boy scouts and then the Sierra Club. He has a lot of praise for the organizations and their leaders. How many of us here got started through some similar program - scouts, guides, outward bound, local clubs, etc? Even now? Yes, such groups are now usually far from the leading edge, tend to be run by older people who like to reminisce (kind of like SuperTopo), and can be conservative and stodgy. But credit where credit is due, and they've contributed a lot.
Painting clubs with a broad brush doesn't make a lot of sense. Some have somewhat reinvented themselves, too - such as the AAC, in part in response to the success of the Access Fund.
I have no more liking for being organized in my climbing by others than anyone else. But it's part of our modern world, whether it's those who manage the places we like to go to or whatever. Like it or not, climbers have to be organized and represented - that's how democracy works. The Climbers' Access Society of BC was created in 1995 for that role, to ensure there was effective representation on key issues. Being anti-organization and anti-authority as kneejerk thing is senseless, as society becomes increasingly interdependent.
the Auger/Tate Woodsworth effort on U Wall stands out as a UBC club effort As in Tim Auger, Dan Tate, Glenn Woodsworth and Hamish Mutch of the Varsity Outdoor Club, in 1966. A stout effort. Two of the four post here. Maybe someday one of them will post stories about the Cacodemon Climbing Club.
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bmacd
Trad climber
Beautiful, BC
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Apr 12, 2010 - 02:36pm PT
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Tricouni can you recommend an alternate compendium of info for BC peaks other than Bivoac.com. Paper or electronic is fine, I'm just curious and would like to do some digging around on the coast range.
Thanks
Bruce
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Apr 12, 2010 - 02:44pm PT
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the baby-boomer generation in north america was deeply suspicious of and hostile to institutions-- everywhere and not just in climbing.
in climbing, institutions like the aac or sierra club or cac seemed sclerotic and backward and dominated by parental figures.
so most climbers privatized, creating loose, informal social groups based on friendship, geography, and interests. some of those groups endured over time, but many didn't. and the institutions the baby boomers and gen xers didn't join, grew smaller, and weaker, and lost influence.
we have a tendency to imagine that the clubs as we knew them in the 60s or 70s or 80s were always sclerotic and backward. but that's not necessarily the case. club life was far more important for climbers-- and north americans generally-- in the years before WW2. jay taylor's forthcoming history of climbing in yos shows that it was constant work and pressure from the sierra club that kept a strong faction in the nps from banning climbing in yosemite.
moreover, we've lost a lot by choosing to privatize rather than to join and do the hard work of reforming the club world. now, each and every battle for this or that issue-- access at this crag, preventing this bit of environmental despoliation, keeping climbing legal --requires that we start all over and put in the time and labor to create a special interest institution.
institutions are much easier to tear down than they are to build.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 12, 2010 - 04:17pm PT
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Kerwin has some good points. The baby-boomers aversion to their parents' institutions, although perhaps somewhat overstated in popular myth, was in part almost Freudian. It really wasn't anything new, just there were more people and they were noisier about it. Pretty standard adolescent male behaviour, much like the territorial and exclusive behaviour of some climbers.
Ultimately, though, it's pretty clear that climbers have to be organized and represented on an ongoing basis on key issues such as access, safety, commercial pressures and conservation. An ad hoc approach doesn't do it, nor does a small tent strategy.
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Chief
climber
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Apr 12, 2010 - 06:29pm PT
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bk, they're Pebble Wrestlers
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SuperTopo on the Web
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Let us know!