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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 10, 2010 - 12:22am PT
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Edit: [Topic title should read North America Wall Area Closure]
After three separate multiple hour peregrine falcon surveys of the eyrie (nest) on the North America Wall NPS wildlife biologist have confirmed active nesting of a peregrine pair. The eyrie is very close to the North America Wall route around the border of Texas and Mexico if the NA was an actual map. To protect the active nest site the NPS has revised the previous “Area Protection –Peregrine Nesting Closure” that I posted here in the beginning of March. The closure is consistent with all of other area closures, and will be actively monitored to insure that successful breeding is still taking place.
The Southeast Face of El Capitan closure will cover all routes between and including “South Seas/Pacific Ocean Wall” East to “Native Son.” The language of the closure may be confusing so I’ll try to clarify. The first four pitches of all routes will be open. For example, you can climb the El Cap tree route even though the wall above is closed.
After three decades of DDT use peregrine falcon population plummeted throughout the world. Thankfully, in 1973 the use of DDT was banned, and in 1973 the peregrine was one of the first species listed as a federal Endangered Species. In Yosemite National Park from 1942 to 1977 no peregrine nesting occurred in Yosemite. The NA Wall eyrie is actually a historic nesting site. In 1978 the first successful nest site recorded after 36 years was confirmed by rock climbers on El Cap!
This is a pretty amazing story, and it is my hope that all of you recognize the significance of the full circle of success that the peregrines have enjoyed in Yosemite. Through the climbing community's respect for this incredible bird we have helped the peregrine falcon soar again as it continues to recover from the brink of extinction.
I'll follow up this post with a scan of the official closure. I expect some grumbling, and I will be active on this forum as well as others to try to answer questions and concerns.
Thank You in advance for your understanding and respect of this closure,
Jesse McGahey
Yosemite Climbing Ranger
jesse_mcgahey@nps.gov
(209) 372-0360
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tooth
Trad climber
The Best Place On Earth
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Apr 10, 2010 - 12:26am PT
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thanks Jesse
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Apr 10, 2010 - 12:30am PT
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thanks for the info, Jesse!
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2010 - 12:54am PT
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2010 - 01:06am PT
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I am curious, who were the original climbers to notice the active peregrine nest in 1978? Are they on this forum?
I checked out Don Reid's Yosemite Big Walls for the old closure area. In the old closure Tangerine Trip and Native Son were also closed. How many of you remember the old closures on El Cap?
The North America Wall eyrie was only successful twice more after the 1978 nest in 1980 and 1981. The last known successful peregrine nesting on El Capitan was in 1994. This was at the "Horse's Neck Eyrie" located below the NA Wall eyrie. During the winter of 94-95 a rockfall took out the Horse's Neck Eyrie, and there have been no documented successful peregrine eyries on El Cap until now.
Chris Mac, do you mind including the closure notice on the Yosemite Area Beta section of the site?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Apr 10, 2010 - 01:27am PT
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When we climbed Mescalito, in '84the closure was in effect. The routes immediately east of us were closed and the peregrines serenaded us for three and a half days, it doesn't get better!
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R.B.
climber
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Apr 10, 2010 - 01:29am PT
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So Jesse,
You may want to revisit your description of the peregrin's historical habitat: case in point
After three decades of DDT use peregrine falcon population plummeted throughout the world. Thankfully, in 1973 the use of DDT was banned, and in 1973 the peregrine was one of the first species listed as a federal Endangered Species.
In Yosemite National Park from 1942 to 1977 no peregrine nesting occurred in Yosemite. The NA Wall eyrie is actually a historic nesting site. (please expand this ... what are the details ... since when?) In 1978 the first successful nest site recorded after 36 years was confirmed by rock climbers on El Cap!
I find it quite interesting that the peregrin did not nest from 1942, but DDT was not typically commerically available until 1945 (see Wikipedia for citation -- In 1945, it was made available to farmers as an agricultural insecticide.)
So, even though the Perigrin has been historically listed as endangered, today I checked the National Wildlife Federal Website and have verified that the North American Peregrin is "NO LONGER AN ENDANGERED SPECIES."
[url="http://ecos.fws.gov/speciesProfile/profile/speciesProfile.action?spcode=B0FU"]
Albeit that there may be other federal agencies that may have federal perigrine "endangered" designations ... I suggest that the NPS do it's homework before making a policy decision and acting to close a major recreational use in a national park .... without properly going through the proper public process, such as NEPA, etc.
I say this out of respect to the law, and expect the Govt. to make decisions by following the proper process. Just because there are birds on the wall, does not make the right for the NPS to arbitrarily close the wall, excessively.
For example, there really only needs to be about 1-2 routes closed on each side of the NA Wall ... So I would say more fairly, close the wall from Wall of early morning light/Space --- to the Atlantic Ocean Wall .... everything else should remain open, because there really has not been any conclusive studies (unless you can cite one for me) to show what buffer distance is minimally necessary from an active nest. So, for the sake of the entire climbing community, which include visitors from all over the world, please revisit this decision!
Respectfully. RB
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2010 - 01:36am PT
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Right on Jaybro! I love that route, one of my favorites on El Cap. Mescalito is still the first route open to the West of the closure. I don't think there is an independent line between the PO and Mescalito, but I'm probably wrong. Wall Of Early Morning Light (Open) starts further East than Mescalito, but then crosses at about the 8th pitch.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 10, 2010 - 01:40am PT
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RB,
> there really has not been any conclusive studies (unless you can cite one for me) to show what buffer distance is minimally necessary from an active nest.
I agree there are probably no "conclusive studies", but this suggests the NPS's guess about a buffer distance is just as good as yours.
There may be some limited evidence on buffer distance, based on actions of the peregrines when climbers have been close to a nest in the past?
I agree, it would be good if somebody can explain why there are nesting closures even though the peregrines are no longer "endangered species".
Is there a similar classification like "threatened species" which is the reason?
[Edit: see Jesse's explanation below - it's a 15 year monitoring program, apparently due to end or be reconsidered in 2014-15]
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 10, 2010 - 01:47am PT
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I remember everything back then in the late 70's
I climbed to the nest on El Cap two years in a row and swapped the eggs with fake ones.
When the chicks hatched climbed back up there and placed them in the nest while mom & pop peregrine are attacking me in full dive bomb force.
Did the same out at Wapama Rock, Hetch Hetchy.
In Hetch Hetchy we got to take the motor boat out there. "Way cool"
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R.B.
climber
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Apr 10, 2010 - 01:50am PT
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Clint,
Good question ... even though I am not a wildlife biologist, I have heard stories of people climbing near active nests ... and they said ... if you climb too close ... they will dive bomb you and try to slash you with your talons. But they are only looking out for their chicks.
On the NWLS species listing:
Falco peregrinus Peregrine Falcon Birds Species of Concern
Falco peregrinus anatum American peregrine falcon Birds Delisted Taxon, Recovered
SO ... I don't even see the two probable species as being even "Threatened"
Hence, this is why I question the decision by the NPS.
PS - I saw Peregrins dive bombing cliff swifts and eating them when they were nesting when I did Mescalito in 1990. So it didn't seem to bother them from that route too much!
Edit: Werner, that is way cool, I have heard of California Condor nests having the same trick being done ... right on!
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Apr 10, 2010 - 01:52am PT
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Maybe they just don't wanna deal with Werner having to rap in and do a recovery of climbers with throat slit by talon?
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2010 - 02:08am PT
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R.B. and Mike,
As it says in the notice I posted, peregrines were de-listed in 1999 under the Endangered Species Act, and now are in a 15 year monitoring program. Neither the NPS nor myself have claimed that the species is still listed.
I appreciate your right to opinions that the peregrines are fine, and that although we only had 8 breeding pairs in the park last year (a record during our monitoring) it sounds like you are saying these birds are actually fully recovered and don't need any more protection. Fortunately the National Park Service doesn't agree. The NPS is charged with managing the park's resources not only for recreational values, but to protect all of the plants and animals within.
Maybe 15 parties or so would have climbed routes within the closure from now until August 1st. So far I haven't observed anyone on that area of the wall this spring. So the question is, would you effect 30 people by requesting that they climb one of the awesome routes on El Cap outside of the closure or risk the success of these peregrine falcon's nest? Maybe you have a different set of ethics, but I would say we respect these undeniably rare raptors and their choice of nesting site.
At any rate, after August 1st the closure will be lifted, and you can jump right on Wyoming Sheep Ranch or Every Man for Himself or another one of your favorite routes within the closed area. The only route in the closed area that sees much traffic is the North America Wall, and even that route is climbed more in the fall when it is not seeping.
Some climbers ask me to close routes because swallows or other birds with really healthy populations are nesting in cracks. I just got back from J-tree, and they were closing routes with active nests of raptors that have never been listed. The superintendent of any park has the authority to close areas for resource protection regardless of whether or not a species has ESA status.
Thanks for catching the "North American Wall" error. I apologize for the typos.
Jesse
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 10, 2010 - 02:10am PT
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> Did the same out at Wapama Rock, Hetch Hetchy.
> In Hetch Hetchy we got to take the motor boat out there. "Way cool"
Cool, Werner.
I bet it was Kolana Rock, though, instead of Wapama.
You can reach Wapama by trail; it's on the sunny side.
Kolana is on the shady side, with best approach by boat.
I've seen the peregrines that nest on Kolana fly across the reservoir and hang out on Wapama to feed.
Kolana Rock
[Edit:] Thanks, Werner - looks like a fun boat ride!
Wapama Rock (from near the dam)
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Apr 10, 2010 - 02:16am PT
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Maybe 15 parties are so would have climbed routes within the closure from now until August 1st. So far I haven't observed anyone on that area of the wall this spring. So the question is, would you effect 30 people by requesting that they climb one of the awesome routes on El Cap outside of the closure or risk the success of these peregrine falcon's nest? Maybe you have a different set of ethics
No offense here Jesse, but I don't think your stated facts related to your idea of "ethics". They bring up a good point. One that should climb the chain and be considered. It's not about ethics. It's also not about if one or 42000 people would possibly climb in that area. It's deeper than that.
I'm all for erroring on the side of caution. Don't get me wrong. But valid points have been made and from a diplomatic point of view they should be considered in my opinion.
I'm sure you realize nobody wants to "shoot the messanger". The chain of command is multi-stepped. We appreciate your work in bringing the info down to us. But I don't think it's too much to ask of you to maybe attempt to bring our message back to the top. (at the same time we'd hate to ask you to do something that causes you to beat your head against the wall).
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R.B.
climber
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Apr 10, 2010 - 02:23am PT
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Thanks Jesse,
I am respectful to the fact that the NPS must balance all uses and impacts in the park ... and with you being a climber, I would be preaching to the choir (... about the closures).
On Peregrin behavior that I have witnessed, the falcons are a tag team while raising their chicks. The one parent guards the nest, while the other parent soars for prey. If the soaring parent is unsuccessful, they swap and the other parent soars ... until they are sucessful with finding prey.
On the Capitan, I have seen the falcons bomb down on those extra maneuverable swifts and ... poof ... feathers fly everywhere and a meal for the day. The birds screetch loudly and sound just like a falling rock!
I agree that the routes in the closure area are some of the less popular walls on the Capitan, so you certainly have a valid point there.
Additionally, I realize that it is not your personal decision, you are following the Park Superintendant's orders.
Thanks for the Update, regards, RB.
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2010 - 02:24am PT
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Cool Werner, I'd love to talk to you sometime about those days.
Clint et al.
Totally valid question about the buffer zone. My good friend Jeff Maurer, who died last year on the Third Pillar of Dana, is responsible for most of the extent of closures on the Yosemite peregrine nesting areas. He based his closures on site specific observation of perches used, line of sight from the eyrie, and behaviors of the peregrine pairs.
In this case we have opened up at least 2 previously closed routes from the old El Cap closures (Aurora, and Tangerine Trip). We have also allowed for climbing the first 4 pitches of any route. This means you could actually start climbing some of these routes a couple days before the end of the closure if you take it slow :) This is based on hours of observations, and we agree that the Trip and Native Sun seem to be too far away.
Nature,
We do want to err on the side of caution, and I will admit that. I will humbly say that the NPS wildlife team is doing the best it can with available data, studies, and monitoring observations to protect the peregrines. Given the recovery that they have had so far, I think it is fair to say that the NPS wildlife team has done pretty well.
Can you bullet the concerns as you see them? I will bring them back to the wildlife team.
Jesse
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 10, 2010 - 02:44am PT
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Whoops you're right Clint!
Kolana Rock it is.
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Mimi
climber
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Apr 10, 2010 - 02:49am PT
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Serenading is a good description of them up there.
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2010 - 03:01am PT
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R.B.,
I'm sorry if I came off a little harsh previously. I fully expected some complaints about the extent of the closures, as well as the de-listing of the peregrines under the ESA. But somehow, I still lost my cool a bit.
I know you have legitimate questions, and hopefully we will be able to make you feel more comfortable with these closures.
It is frustrating to me to hear so much doubt when I personally have logged dozens of hours "spying" on peregrines through a telescope, watching them do incubation exchanges like you referred to. Yet, I sympathize with where that doubt comes from.
I know and respect all of the wildlife biologists who have monitored peregrines here over the last ten years. As a team they have spent 1000s of hours with their eyes glued to the eyepieces of telescopes collecting data on so many aspects of their behavior. Yes, we probably have missed a pair or two over the years, and if anything this should be thought of as good news. Just like many of you have a trade, a profession, or anything that you have mastered through countless hours of dedication, these wildlife biologists have worked tirelessly at their jobs, and they do deserve our trust for the abilities that they have developed.
Last week I went out and surveyed this pair with one of them, and although she was 98% sure that they were in the incubation stage of nesting. She wanted to go out once more to confirm behavior consistent with nesting before making a recommendation.
They went out again on Tuesday, and observed incubation exchanges like R.B. described; the male flies to the eyrie site the female jumps up and flies away to stretch out her wings. It may take hours to see this, and it takes a constant eye on the scope. One daydream gaze at the Black Tower on Zodiac and you might miss it.
This actually brings up another point, we will be looking for some volunteers to help with peregrine monitoring throughout the park. I'll start a separate thread, but if any of you are interested, and can dedicate a few hours while you are here send me an email.
Thanks,
Jesse
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 10, 2010 - 03:13am PT
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Good work, Jesse. Thanks for letting us know and answering all the questions!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Apr 10, 2010 - 03:25am PT
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The superintendent of any park has the authority to close areas for resource protection regardless of what needs protecting
Thx Jesse for posting up. Can you clarify a bit, the quote above I grabbed from your post? The bold is my emphasis.
I don't think that is true policy the way it's stated, is it? As stated it's draconian in that it overreaches. For example, we can't say that a toad in the tuolumne drainage needs protection east of half dome thru a closure of the 140 canyon below the junction of 120 without a causal nexus. That would be preposterous, and I'd suggest illegal.
can you draw that part out a bit so folks understand what you mean by the Superintendent's authority to protect park resources?
cheers,
M
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martygarrison
Trad climber
The Great North these days......
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Apr 10, 2010 - 09:01am PT
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I agree with Jesse and the NPS on this one. Seems some of us are acting a little petulant. Pleaty of walls to climb and seems prudent to error on the side of caution here. Let's not forget it was humans in the first place that brought this species to an endangered state.
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R.B.
climber
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Apr 10, 2010 - 10:07pm PT
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Jesse,
Thank you for your confessional. I have to admit that I have been angry in the past about peregrin closures in general. So I was more ranting against the loss of the climbing freedom, rather than looking at the big picture.
We all can acknowledge that we share this planet with other species, and as human population expands, creating demands on existing as well as pristine resources, that often the animals (and plants) may lose out.
With all that said, I understand the mission of the NPS and the legacy to be left for the future. I do wonder about, as you said 8 nesting pairs in the park.
Has there been any studies that have estimated what the acreage (or sq. mi.) that a typical Nesting Pair inhabits? I ask only because I have seen how territorial they can be ... and only wonder if they would drive off other potential nesting pairs if they got "too close."
As with any science, biology is lot of observation. It would be great if more funding could come to truely do controlled studies and get a good scientific basis for creating public policy that affects the human/wildlife interface.
I did not take your postings, personally, as I could infer how passionate you are about the birds. We all want them to succeed!
Someday, I am sure, we will cross paths, and I would like to say we could be friends.
Peace on, RB
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 10, 2010 - 10:13pm PT
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"We all can acknowledge that we share this planet with other species, ..."
So ..... we protect this nice flying bird.
On the other side of the coin we slaughter millions of animals & birds every year for sense gratification of the tongue.
We maintain huge industrialized slaughterhouses.
Hypocrisy ..........
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R.B.
climber
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Apr 10, 2010 - 10:57pm PT
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Yes Werner,
Hypocritical ...
I couldn't argue with your reasoning on that ...
We save the little birdies ... at the expense of our climbing freedom due to an over reaching public policy. Ahhh what else is new?
As far as "Allowing climbing on the first 5 pitches" thing ... has anyone ever thought about the fact that this closed section of El Cap is so overhanging that to descend off the top of those routes would probably require a spool of rope ... or even worse ... down leading.
I still affirm that Closing from PO wall to AO wall would probably not be a big deal for 4 months ... but what's next??? closing the wall because there is an endangered silverfish in the cracks. Or how about the 12" rats?
Just spooling here.
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2010 - 12:23am PT
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The superintendent of any park has the authority to close areas for resource protection regardless of what needs protecting
Mungeclimber here is my clarification. I hope it helps.
In Yosemite we have laws that protect all wildlife. For example, bears are one of the signature species of the park and they grab a lot of attention. When we properly store our food we are protecting the bears. We have specific regulations in the park on how we are supposed to store our food. All of these park specific laws are listed in our Superintendent's Compendium.
In Yosemite the superintendent's compendium has traditionally allowed for climbers to have special privileges, such as the ability to hand drill holes in granite and install bolts, to spend the night in wilderness without a permit, to hang our food from the wall before we start a climb (the rest of park visitors must use bear resistant canisters). However, we also have to accept the peregrine nesting area closures.
When the superintendent has a justifiable reason to close an area either for visitor or resource protection he/she can do so. Closures are rare, and usually have to do with protecting visitors from hazards such as floods, rockfalls, etc. Sometimes we close certain wilderness campsites for restoration or alpine meadows from grazing to protect the Yosemite Toad. As you alluded, closures must be justifiable.
In this case a lot of you feel like this closure is not reasonable. For the 4-5 of you so far that feel that way you may want to write a comment letter to the superintendent.
The Park address is:
P.O. Box 577
Yosemite, CA 95389
Jesse
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Apr 11, 2010 - 12:28am PT
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Thx Jesse!
Spot on.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
Green Cove slabbage BITD!
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Apr 11, 2010 - 12:30am PT
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I will personally deliver caviar and swift sashimi to the birds if they'd just move onto the Sheep Ranch or wherever and leave the Rostrum alone.
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2010 - 12:34am PT
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I went out to Rancheria Falls today with my wife Megan and friend Naomi. We were hanging out in front of Hetchy Dome checking out some of the sweet lines and eating lunch when we saw a huge bird soaring in the distance. My first thought was that it was a turkey vulture as they are so common, and the wing shape seemed similar. As it flew closer over the reservoir in front of us we saw that it was unmistakably a bald eagle.
We barely had enough time to admire this amazing bird when a peregrine shot out from somewhere behind us around the vicinity of Hetchy Dome. The peregrine raced straight at the eagle talons out-stretched and actually made contact. The peregrine continued to hassle the bald eagle, but the eagle seemed to want nothing of a fight and glided on down the valley, and the peregrine flew back.
I've really never seen anything like that. Aerial antics by peregrines--yes often, but attacking a bird three times its size, and winning, was something else.
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Gene
Social climber
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Apr 11, 2010 - 12:56am PT
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JesseM,
For clarification purposes, the out-of-bounds routes, as shown in the McTopo guide, are (1) South Seas (2) Pacific Ocean Wall (3) Sea of Dreams (4) North America Wall (5) Wyoming Sheep Ranch (6) Atlantic Ocean Wall (7) Iron Hawk and (8) Native Son.
Am I close on the closed?
g
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
Green Cove slabbage BITD!
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Apr 11, 2010 - 01:11am PT
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If you only count the ones in the McTopo guide, yes.
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2010 - 01:35am PT
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Yes those are the ones in the Supertopo Big Walls Book.
Also included are; Everyman for Himself, Nightmare on California Street, Continental Drift, El Nino, Heavy Metal and Tinker Toys, New Jersey Turnpike, Heartland, and Gulf Stream. I might have missed a couple of the new ones.
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Apr 11, 2010 - 01:42am PT
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It's "Native Son" Jesse.
If climbers were bothering the falcons than they could just fly somewhere else. I agree with not climbing through their eyrie but the NPS perimeters are ridiculous.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, but you work for the man so I guess you win.
If you really want to protect the wildlife in the valley you would ban tourons that feed the poor squirrels.
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Apr 11, 2010 - 03:26am PT
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Gotta love the Germans
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okie
Trad climber
San Leandro, Ca
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Apr 11, 2010 - 11:57am PT
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Sounds like this falcon thing has gotten to be a fetish for some people. Hours spent staring at them through binos...
Now that they are OFF the endangered list...what do they taste like? Perhaps with a nice chianti and some fava beans?
So the park has the authority to close a public resource to protect any fetish object they wish?
My crack team of lawyers has checked the language and they assure me the Notrh America Wall is open. The closure affects the North American Wall.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Apr 11, 2010 - 12:18pm PT
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They might have closed off too many routes but so what? There's over 100 lines on El Cap. Get over it.
However, I read this: "These Peregrine Closures throughout the Nation in the past ten years or so have become so vague and seem to be some kind of justification for some Gov't Grant."
Is that the case here? Is the closure tied to a grant of ANY kind? In other words, is there money, and people's jobs, involved in this affair that we are not hearing about?
If money is in the equation in any way the arguments become totally different. I hope this case is "clean," but would be interested in hearing because the ability of us humans to pull shenanagans is limitless.
JL
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 11, 2010 - 12:20pm PT
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Good job Jesse. That bald eagle encounter story was awesome too. Peregrines are so bad ass!
Great post Coz. Respect!
It's not hypocritical to protect an endangered species or one that is still protected because it was endangered vs. other animals. As I've posted here many times endangered species are the "canary in a coal mine" that shows if an ecosystem is healthy. It's the easiest most efficient way to protect a natural system. Of course people's emotions are involved so animals with "charisma" like falcons attract more attention and protection, but it's not about saving a falcon or a spotted owl or a delta smelt it's about saving the minimum amount of acceptable habitat to maintain the natural world. There are millions of chickens you don't need to protect them. Yes killing is killing but there are even more important reasons to protect entire species and habitats vs. saving individual animals.
This closure means people can't climb certain routes for a certain time. Not a big sacrifice to make to allow these majestic animals to breed and survive.
And besides when I'm reincarnated I'm coming back as a Peregrine and I'll be nesting on El Cap.
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10b4me
Ice climber
Ice Caves at the Sads
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Apr 11, 2010 - 12:26pm PT
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So ..... we protect this nice flying bird.
On the other side of the coin we slaughter millions of animals & birds every year for sense gratification of the tongue.
We maintain huge industrialized slaughterhouses.
Hypocrisy ..........
so true Werner
Bottom line I think climbing is not a God given right, we should respect the natural world and try to live in harmony with it's denizens. Not climbing a section of cliff, for the time their chicks are maturing seems like a fair compromise.
right on Coz
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2010 - 02:29pm PT
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Thanks Coz, for the words of respect and compassion for the peregrines. I hope it reminds other readers of this forum that this is not about a bureaucratic attempt to limit recreational opportunites, but rather an attempt to continue to protect the peregrine falcon, period. The peregrine is still a rare bird, and its beauty, aerial mastery, and speed are all attributes that draw our inspiration. The stories I read here from many of you, even from those who respectfully disagree with the extent of the closure, are personally memorable, almost magical experiences.
I've also had intense experiences of climbing into an previously unknown peregrine nesting area. Before I high-tailed it out of there, leaving gear and pride behind, the peregrine repeatedly dove at me screaming, and then perched about 20' above me turned its 'hind end towards me and shat in my general direction...I was already placing my bail anchor. This was in "Panther Town" in North Carolina, Jeff Achey et co, had recently put up this sweet roof crack rail pitch that hadn't seen a second ascent.
Largo, the single seasonal employee (no more than 6 months) that has been hired to help with peregrine monitoring and surveying in Yosemite would normally cost the taxpayer about $25,000. However, as is often the case with positions that are not deemed critical in the NPS, we don't have base funding from congress for her position. Last year the late (and great) Jeff Maurer submitted and was awarded a grant from the Yosemite Fund to more thoroughly conduct the peregrine survey. This year, at least partially out of out of generous donations from family and friends to his memorial fund, we are able to continue the monitoring.
Thanks for the words of support guys.
Jesse
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2010 - 02:42pm PT
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Okie, the closure language, even with the embarrassing mistake, still reads; includes all routes between and including "South Seas/Pacific Ocean Wall" (since South Seas finishes on the PO) East to "Native Son". The North America Wall is within that area. The North American Wall is a relatively unknown variation, that has not seen a second ascent since the first ascent was completed sometime last week in my imagination--in a moment of spaciness while writing the language of the closure notice.
Weird, I would never say North American Wall outloud, but for some reason I in writing it just came out that way...I need a proof reader. When do you start Jake?
Jesse
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tinker b
climber
the commonwealth
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Apr 11, 2010 - 02:47pm PT
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thanks jesse.
i just wanted to share with you all a little of what i know about the peregrine closures. much of the work on peregrine research and closures since the late 80's was done by jeff maurer. he was a climber as well as being passionate birder, conservationist, and well thought human.
these closures are not the actions of tools who don't want you to climb or slackline or be free in the valley. it is to protect these amazing animals for four months of the year. the choices are made by climbers and other lovers of freedom.
jeff maurer died in my hands in the end of august after falling on the third pillar of dana. when i heard about the peregrines on el cap my heart soared, as it did for many of jeff's family and friends. for me this is such a great event, and i am eager to sit in the meadow watching the birds soar. i wish the best for these birds, and think it must be some lucky chicks to be born on the great stone.
i always thought that respecting the creatures of the great stone was good for my karma on the rock. i like that i have to wait to be able to climb the rostrum at a certain time of year. i am into delayed gratification. we don't have to have everything we want all the time, sometimes we get what we need and it is pretty f*#king good.
i would love to see a blanket respect for all animals on this planet. an end to factory farms, polluting of oceans, rivers, streams, lakes, and all habitats that animals live in. since this is not happening all at once, i do not see any harm in trying to save what we can, i do not find it hypocritical to do what we can.
peace,
jo-lynne
great story coz, thanks for your words.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Redlands
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Apr 11, 2010 - 02:49pm PT
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They nest on the top of downtown buildings all over the place. There are plenty of webcams, in CA showing nesting pairs on highrises. Here are a few http://www2.ucsc.edu/scpbrg/nestcameras.htm
I wonder how much separation they need?
There are a pair nesting on the roof of the Rosa Parks State building in downtown San Bernardino when I worked there. Pigeon heads hitting the sidewalk all the time, maintenance guys on the roof near the nest all the time, webcam aimed in there, etc.
They are no longer listed, and our "recovery" efforts are essentially passive. Yet we dump how much money into "protecting" them and "recovery"? It's silly. Bottom line: You will NEVER see a govt agency willingly re-allocate or give up funds. EVER. Now that they've recovered, instead of celebrating and refocusing on the latest pressing problem, there are vested interests. People with grants, careers, divisions and underlings, etc invested in the issue who will continue to go to that well until it's dry.
Same as it ever was.
Maybe if enough people start asking hard questions about why there's no hot water, no functioning mirrors, and 3 shitters for 150 men in the only walk-in campground, yet we put tens of thousands per year into falcon "recovery" efforts when those actions basically amount to looking through a scope, and have no discernable effect on actual recovery of the species. The falcon problem was DDT, not people in proximity to their nests.
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tinker b
climber
the commonwealth
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Apr 11, 2010 - 03:02pm PT
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elcapinyoazz, get over your sh#t. are you such a pansy that you can't heat a little water on your, stove, walk to your car, bike over to the lodge to sh#t. you would rather see the park service focus on your personal comfort, creating more infrastructure, then protect the natural resources it was formed for. maybe you should stay in the city if you don't want to rough it in yosemite.
did you not here coz's story about the falcon's abandoning their nest when he and walt climbed through on the ypb?
i also recall that a few years ago when the closure on the rostrum was voluntary the birds did not nest, but then when it was mandatory they did. the first year with 2 successful hatchlings, and the next year with 3. (i think lincoln told me that, i don't remeber my source.)
oh and just rereading you are concerned about functioning mirrors... that shit's hillarious...
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R.B.
climber
..
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Apr 11, 2010 - 03:07pm PT
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ECin.. Touche! Nicely said.
My personal experience with Peregrin Closure that had really sent me off is based on the annual and seasonal closure in Prescott N.F. at Granite Mountain in AZ. To make a long story short:
Granite Mountain is a 500' Cliff that is about half a mile wide, with over 80 4-6 pitch routes ..., trending SSE to NNW, it is truly some of the best (solid granite) trad climbing in the state.
The birds had/have a nest up high at the westerly third of the cliff.
The NFS decides ... let's just close the whole cliff down ... and they still do to this day every spring.
This basically blew away over 50% of the climbable season. Because Spring and Fall is peak season, and summer is too hot.
So no climb from Feb to July/Aug, every year.
This is the prime example of why I have posted above that Management Policy without the science to back it up is just Bad Policy.
Mi no gusta!
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tinker b
climber
the commonwealth
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Apr 11, 2010 - 03:13pm PT
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r.b. my understanding of the granite mountain closure is that they do not have enough money to do the research needed to limit the closure to just the routes the peregrines are nesting on. it is cheaper to just close the whole wall. it is frustrating when that is the best climbing in the area and that closure is excessive. i wonder if a grant could be found to do the necessary research and open a portion of the area.
it does seem the valley is a different case all together.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Redlands
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Apr 11, 2010 - 03:18pm PT
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No ma'am, Tinker I don't stay there. It's not about my comfort. It's about the responsible use of public funds. I've spent a career in water resources protection, usually working for public agencies at the county, state, and federal levels. I see the dysfunction of bureacracies from the inside, day-in and day-out.
But keep beating your chest and feeling righteous, if that makes you feel good.
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R.B.
climber
..
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Apr 11, 2010 - 03:18pm PT
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Tinker,
Yes, the valley is a separate chapter of the same bad novel.
Don't get me wrong, I think every species needs a home, but it's best to make that need in balance with mankinds need to shralp the rads.
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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Apr 11, 2010 - 03:19pm PT
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There are Falcon closures at crags, cliffs, and walls all throughout the country.
Deal with it.
We are aliens on that terrain, they are natives.
Leave them be and stop bitching, and ECIYAZZ, get over yourself, dude.
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R.B.
climber
..
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Apr 11, 2010 - 03:24pm PT
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It's all honky dory until you go to climb at your favorite cliff and find out that they just posted a closure notice without any public hearing or process ... then ... maybe not so good.
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2010 - 03:33pm PT
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Elcapinyoazz, by the way that has got to hurt for El Cap to be in ..., maybe that is why you are so angry.
Please reread my above post in response to the question about funding for this position. Your tax dollars are not going to the peregrine monitoring positions,
Yet we dump how much money into "protecting" them and "recovery"? It's silly. Bottom line:...
Private interests are paying for this, and private or university dollars have always paid for the efforts.
If you are willing to have an actual reasoned discussion and take your time to write non-inflammatory comments to NPS leaders or politicians outside of this forum, get organized with like minded recreational utilitarians, and site academic resources that support your arguments you may get somewhere (you may want to choose a different alias). In the meantime be satisfied with beating your chest and throwing complaints to the Supertopo forum about not having enough mirrors for 150 grown men...btw I don't hear the women complaining.
Thanks, jo-lynne for the perspective about Jeff. It seems like people ignore the fact the protections have not been spear-headed by the big-bad Government, but a few compassionate bird/wildlife professionals who have put 1000s of hours of unpaid time to help protect peregrines. But, that doesn't go well with their world view as they sit back and get ticked off watching Glen Beck rants.
Jesse
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Redlands
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Apr 11, 2010 - 03:52pm PT
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Interesting reactions. I wonder how, in your reactionary/defensive minds, that taking a rational look at something makes it about me.
I don't stay in Camp4. I have no plans to climb anything in the closure area. Where do I figure into this again? Because I'm willing to ask questions? Or does being angry at someone asking questions make you feel like you're DOING something for the falcons?
I'd wager I've spent more time protecting the naturals resources of this country than the vast, vast majority of you. I've gone to bat for the resource when it actually mattered, putting my career in the balance...and lost. I left a career in federal water resources protection, largely because there was no political will to protect the resource if it meant any conflict with or inconveniencing of business interests.
From 1993 to 1998 I worked on an enforcement case for an ongoing, serial violator of a point source water discharge permit. The maximum fines were in the $40 million range. The number was that low only because of a 5yr statute of limiations on violations, they'd been continuously violating paramaters of their NPDES permit for a decade or more and I kept a running 5 yr spreadsheet to keep the max penalty current. Mostly petro-chem and heavy metal pollutants. The case was settled for less than $250k and an agreement to install about $100k of pollution equipment. Five years of my life/career, they get off basically free with no future incentive to be proactive or even address their violations.
So forgive me if I'm not willing to sit around and listen to a bunch of bullshit from well-meaning enviro types who want somewhere to direct their anger.
Notice the wording around the Granite Mtn closures..basically, give us more money so we can monitor or we have to close the entire place. As I said, it's never about shifting allocation or prudent application of limited resources in govt.
Jesse, nice smarmy comment about the mirrors. I guess with you haven't started shaving yet?
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tinker b
climber
the commonwealth
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Apr 11, 2010 - 04:05pm PT
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Maybe if enough people start asking hard questions about why there's no hot water, no functioning mirrors, and 3 shitters for 150 men in the only walk-in campground, yet we put tens of thousands per year into falcon "recovery" efforts when those actions basically amount to looking through a scope, and have no discernable effect on actual recovery of the species. The falcon problem was DDT, not people in proximity to their nests.
maybe if that hadn't been your hard question...
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jack herer
climber
veneta, or
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Apr 11, 2010 - 04:07pm PT
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R.B. got me thinking... How about closing off 4000 acres in the Menagerie Wilderness in Oregon making the close to 200 climbs back there only accessable for four months of the year. Due two a pair of falcons that nest on one of the spires on the edge of the wilderness, now were talking about 100 differnt rock formations on 4 differnt aspects of two differnt drainages. And maybe only 20 differnt people climb up there a year anyways. Now I find this to be bull sh#t.
Ya and honsetly is this really affecting anyones El Cap plans between now and July?
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Redlands
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Apr 11, 2010 - 04:25pm PT
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Let me take another approach then.
What do you folks thing is the biggest danger to peregrines today?
Perhaps look into the pigeon keepers/racers who actively destroy falcon eggs and/or nests. Sounds crazy, is unfortunately true, particularly in the UK.
My larger point, regardless of what channels the money is passing through (let's not get overly facile, Jesse, I can point to plenty of federal funds that go indirectly or directly to peregrine stuff, IMLS grants to the Peregrine Fund, federal pass-through funds to state agencies, etc)...the larger point is, we need better allocation of our limited resources.
Funny story, I saw a fed truck parked at Arch Rock the otherday...it's still there, hasn't moved in a week or more, best as I can tell. Says "Fees Work" on the side. Well, let's see...a $40k+ new pimped out Dodge one-ton, sitting idle....with a slogan on the side that's supposed to make me feel like my/our money is going to good use. You can't make this stuff up.
Now, I know there's probably a good reason to have bought that truck. And I bet that it didn't have anything at all to do with "hey, we've got an allocation for a truck, what should we get...gotta spend all the budget or they'll try to give us less next year." I've been a part of that mindset, and fully defended it from within. Maybe not the case here, but it is a consistent symptom in the agencies.
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Buju
Trad climber
the range of light
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Apr 11, 2010 - 04:28pm PT
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I wonder how many people who are on here bitching were actually affected by the closure?
This whole thread is just the same old supertopo whining.
Jo-lynne has it pretty spot on... Respecting the creatures of the rock does good things for your karma on the rock.
The Yosemite Fund pays for the research, and it is executed by a couple of dedicated, poorly paid researchers. Sorry to disappoint a few of you, but there is no evil scheme here. The park is simply following it's mandate to protect the ecosystem therin.
-Roger Putnam
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
Green Cove slabbage BITD!
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Apr 11, 2010 - 04:29pm PT
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So the birds live there, and we don't. We visit.
Our spreading of chemicals throughout the food chain brought them to the brink of extinction. Our visits can cause their reproduction to fail.
We have chosen, through the means of governance, to attempt the remediation of our damage by limiting our visits to their neighborhood. The governance being a human effort, it is necessarily an imperfect and somewhat clumsy mechanism. Gold star to whomever pointed that out first, you really scored there.
But we want to keep climbing around their home, because we are freedom-loving climbers and the man can't keep us down and the birds are doing fine, at least anecdotally, and why can't I take a hot shower anyhow if there's money from the big bad gubmint to keep these birds under expensive 24-7 observation?
Let's break it down:
benefit to birds: fledglings make it, species continues for the time being
cost to birds: zero
benefit to us: altruistic warm fuzzies
cost to us: El Cap climbing choices for four months reduced from 100 or so to 80-some.
Really, the only question here is: how important do you think you are?
If your survival depends on your ability to go climb the NA in the middle of summer, maybe you should just do it. Screw the birds. The uncountable other freedoms that the accidents of birth and history and technology have granted you mean nothing compared to this one right, and you should have it too. Stamp your little foot and poke your lip out and go and climb right through those stupid birds, they shouldn't have gone and tried to live smack dab in the middle of the most accessible proving ground for your massive sackliness.
So there.
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Buju
Trad climber
the range of light
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Apr 11, 2010 - 04:38pm PT
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My El-Cap Peregrine story:
My girlfriend and I had been planning on climbing Triple Direct on a specific weekend in september for a number of months. It was the only time she could get enough time off of work to do so. Unfortunately, Jeff Mauer passed away, and his memorial service was scheduled to be on that weekend that we had planned to climb.
It was a tough decision, but eventually we decided that climbing El Cap would be a celebration of Jeff and a personal way of remembering his adventerous lifestyle.
We blasted off and I didn't think about Jeff until Sunday morning, the day of his service. I was leading the pitch up the the Glowering spot and thought "Sh#t,...Jeff's memorial service is probably starting right now...Im such a terrible person for being up here instead of at the memorial..."
I looked behind me, and saw a peregrine dive out of the sky and take out a swift in a cloud of feathers, circle back past me with the swift in it's talons, and fly off towards the cathedrals.
I'm pretty sure that was Jeff saying that it was okay, all would be well, and he is looking out for the raptors of the park.
I truly did feel a burst of joy knowing they are back on El Cap...even though I did have plans in the closure area this spring.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
Green Cove slabbage BITD!
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Apr 11, 2010 - 04:48pm PT
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Ya know, the whole question of whether/how much the gubmint is less than perfect doesn't really address the essence of this issue, which is that making unnecessary intrusions into the natural world is something best avoided if respect for it has any meaning to you.
We can all cite instances of stupid gov't actions. This doesn't actually matter. What matters is that our presence at the wrong time in the birds' life cycle can be disastrous for their survival, hence Coz' story.
All the rest, with the bathrooms and the budgets and the black helicopters, is just so much blather.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Apr 11, 2010 - 04:51pm PT
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Don't need no stinking lists..
Although the Brown bear is not an endangered species I fully support the closure of all established campgrounds/lodging in Yosemite.
All species (including/especially Humans) are in danger of extinction at the hands of Humans.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 11, 2010 - 05:04pm PT
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"All species (including/especially Humans) are in danger of extinction at the hands of Humans."
Humans, ah yes ...
We should now close this planet earth as we are becoming endangered .....
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2010 - 05:20pm PT
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Thanks Rhodo for bringing the conversation back to the point of the thread, protecting the peregrines.
Yes, ECIYA, I too have observed waste in the government FROM WITHIN...wow. AND, I have observed even more waste from individuals in our society. Like Rhodo pointed out the government being a human invention is not perfect, far from.
However, in this instance, the birds are being protected by the generous donations of the folks who support the Yosemite Fund, and the generous donations of friends and family of Jeff Maurer though his memorial fund. Lets reel it in here, and talk about what is relevent to the conversation.
Yo Buju-Rodger, who were you planning on climbing within the closure with this spring? Wasn't it the first week in June for the NA? Man, we'll have to do it in September or October...bummer.
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Buju
Trad climber
the range of light
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Apr 11, 2010 - 06:17pm PT
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Yeah Jesse...I think we may need to settle on one of the other 80 routes on El Cap for the spring AND do the NA in the fall!
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HighStepQueen
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Apr 11, 2010 - 06:18pm PT
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Thanks, Peregrines, for not nesting on the Nose!
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slevin
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Apr 11, 2010 - 06:47pm PT
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There is plenty of trash talk about the environmental impact of rock climbing and a lot of it has to do with bozos that feel that their testicular ego is more important then the surrounding nature. Trashing vegetation, leaving tape all over the place, shitting in the woods and not covering, ignoring closures due to bird nesting - it's all part of the same stupid pattern.
There is plenty of rock out there, you don't have to restrict yourself to this specific climb at this specific time. Think of it the same way you think of wet routes - well, it's wet and I'll do it next time.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
Green Cove slabbage BITD!
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Apr 11, 2010 - 06:48pm PT
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No no no you got it all wrong dude!
it is the MAN keeping you DOWN
when you gonna learn?
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Apr 11, 2010 - 06:55pm PT
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So a dozen or so routes are closed for a few months and there is all this bitching? Get a life! This has already impacted my future plans but, hey, that's life! One reason I love being up on El Cap is that it's wild and I never know what I'll see. I don't want it to be sterile. Life goes on and there are other routes to enjoy.
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Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
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Apr 11, 2010 - 08:31pm PT
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So a few years ago when the NPS cut down over 100 trees at Inspiration Point so the Tourons could better enjoy the view, that was protecting the resources?
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R.B.
climber
..
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Apr 11, 2010 - 08:39pm PT
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So we close an area because a falcon pair live on a blank cliff.
So ... let me get this right ... NOT AN ENDANGERED SPECIES; NOT A THREATENED SPECIES (see my post earlier);
The park can make decisions that affect citizen's rights, let's leave it at that, even though I disagree with the rationale and reasoning as to why the NPS has chosen to protect a non-listed species ..
This is kind of like closing a highway down, because a kangaroo rat, MIGHT get run over by those cruel and thoughtless humans driving their cars.
Just watch out, it's a slippery slope ... today the peregrin, tomorrow it will be something else.
Wake up people, you all are missing the point ... Government over reaching protection vs. citizen's rights.
RB has left the building.
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greg orton
climber
Southwest Oregon
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Apr 11, 2010 - 11:03pm PT
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In the 1996 Guide to Management of Peregrine Falcons at the Eyrie, Tom Cade wrote that "Seasonal restrictions on climbing and trail-closures may be necessary in some places, but the draconian regulations that have been imposed on human access to Peregrines and Peregrine habitat in Great Britain should not be necessary in North America and probably would not be tolerated by the American public."
Today the discussions I'm reading here are going on at nearly every climbing area across the country. The questions are "how do we move from arbitrary restictions on public access to those that are actually necessary for maintaining Peregrine as an esential element of our climbing environment. Today, there is a need to hold land manager's accountable for backing off of the arbitrary and overly restrictive closures that became routinely accepted policy in the '90s.
For the most part though, closures at Yosemite have been the exception. It sounds to me that they have made an effort to locate the eyrie ledge and close areas within site of the eyrie (nest). These guidelines were also recommend by the Access Fund in "Raptors and Climbers, Guidance for Managing Technical Climber and Protecting Raptor Nest Sites.", 1997. My understanding is that the eyrie on El Cap has been watch pretty closely. In the 1996 Mangement Plan (Cade et al. pp 67), the statement on the potential effect from climbers was qualified with the observation, "However, it must be borne in mind that in many cases the Peregrines have chosen to reoccupy a cliff that is already being climbed, and many pairs do not seem disturbed by climbing that does not directly approach the nest. For example, El Capitan in Yosemite Valley has hosted a pair of Peregrine since 1978. This rock undergoes tremendous climbing pressure throughout the nesting season, except in an area of seasonal closure around the actual eyrie. The Peregrine are not at all disturbed by climbers on other portions of the face,.." I've actually had the fledged young land just out of arms length and quietly watch me climb (this was in Southwest Oregon).
However unless I've missed something, the stated closure for NA Wall fails to address two critical elements which the public has a right to expect to be included in every closure that addresses raptors (listed or not).
1) The site shall be monitored and if no activity is observed by (date will very by elevation and latitude, check with USF&W in your area for a reasonable date),cease area closure and seasonal restrictions. Notify climbers and remove signs.
2) Determine fledging success. Two weeks after young fledge, cease area closure and seasonal restrictions, notify climbers and remove signs.
The national movement that is taking shape is to demand these three items be included in every raptor closure management plan:
1) A seasonal closure of the Primary Area that is within sight of the nest ledge.
2) Lift closure when the site is found to be inactive.
3) Lift the closure 2 weeks after the young are of fledging age.
The Park Services July 31 date is an arbitrary and capricious date. This date is a fallacious date that was cut and pasted into nearly every Peregrine Management Plan that came out of the '90s regardless of elevation or latitude.
I am in support of reasonable closures. Peregrine chicks will be most sensitive to disturbance during brooding until they can thermal regulate (about 10 days of age). After that the concern is that climbers can distract the adults away from the eyrie or from the hunting. Chick flege at about six weeks of age. Therefore chicks that hatch early May will leave the nest around the middle of June. Males usually fledge about 3 to 5 days before females. The young normally stay in the area for four to six weeks after fledging. The parents continue to supply the young with food while they develop their hunting skills.
Yosemite has a history of working with climbers. The door should be somewhat open to you to hold managers accountable for a more reasonable and site specific closure period. Send the Park Superintendent a letter by snail mail supporting the reasonable protection of Peregrine in the Park and requesting a more reasonable closure period.
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R.B.
climber
..
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Apr 11, 2010 - 11:45pm PT
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COZ,
I read your post (story) about the abandonment of the chicks. I would feel bad about that ... but you have to question if it was really YOUR FAULT! There are times when birds bail ... the instinct to protect their young would more than likely overide the temporary disturbance your passage may have created. Now, if you handled the chicks, that may be another story as the human stench (can) have an effect, we have all learned those storys in BIO 101.
The bottom line is you DO NOT KNOW CONCLUSIVELY that the cause and effect of that scenerio was your fault.
PS - I still advocate closing only 1-2 routes on both sides of the nest.
Pretty sure they will be OK with it as long as you aint lobbing grenades at 'em.
Respectfully, RB
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R.B.
climber
..
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Apr 12, 2010 - 12:00am PT
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nice wildlife image ... love the blue tail.
Us climbers are the visitor's and we need to respect that.
I saw a brown bag once at the base of EL Crap. I kicked it and it moved. Looking inside it, I saw maggots feasting on the human deffecate. Also the millipedes at the base were rather prolific as well.
Ahh, the smell of napalm in the morn ...
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Gabe
climber
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Apr 12, 2010 - 12:40am PT
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Good work Jesse! I hope to run into you soon man. Look out for those perigrins, they bite the ear-lobes off healthy subjects.....bad portaledge dreams.........
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
Green Cove slabbage BITD!
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Apr 12, 2010 - 01:18am PT
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Some pretty classic arguments in here:
What is to say that another group of environmentalists, private interests etc. decide to advocate a closure for their cause (species) and cough up a large chunk if change to do so and donate it to the Yosemite Fund. Does that mean they too well be afforded the same protection by the Super?
 the classic 'cabal of mysteriously motivated wealthy people' paranoid rant
"I seriously wonder if the common Raven would be protected if for any reason their nesting behavior was intruded upon by humans, any where within the Valley Walls, and their young off springs were left to die as their parents departed the nest in fear of the humans."
--yer basic straw man. If ravens were as uncommon as peregrines, they might indeed be afforded the same protection. But, um, they're not.
"Last but not least, there sure as hell have to be a pair/s of Peregrines nesting near the cables of 1/2 Dome. If in fact there were an active nest found within close vicinity of the Cables, would you, the NPS, close the Cables to the tens of thousands of tourists for the same amount of time? Or the Falls Trail or better yet the West Tunnel (SR41) Entrance... Ten bucks says No! And that is the basis of my point."
--leaving aside the question of whether peregrines nest on 45-degree slabs, another remains: what exactly is your point? that the aforementioned International Raptor Conspiracy is wealthy enough to fund bird studies, but isn't sufficiently evil to close roads? thay they prefer to spend their money to inconvenience a handful of climbers instead of striking at the heart of industrial tourism?
"Oh yeah, 20 bucks says that ONLY the researchers are allowed to access the closures...right? And what are they researching? After 20 plus years, how much more can one research the habits/behaviors of the Peregrine? Aren't [sic] their presence just as intrusive to the nesting birds as any other human?
Far more behind the closed doors of the Supers Office scene to all this than meets the eye I tell ya."
--Did you you see the helicopter? it was black! like Obama!
"So a few years ago when the NPS cut down over 100 trees at Inspiration Point so the Tourons could better enjoy the view, that was protecting the resources?"
--apropos of nothing
"This is kind of like closing a highway down, because a kangaroo rat, MIGHT get run over by those cruel and thoughtless humans driving their cars."
-- Lemme get this straight: El Cap is a road, constructed by people for their own uses?
"Just watch out, it's a slippery slope... today the peregrin, tomorrow it will be something else."
--Mark my words, sonny.
"Wake up people, you all are missing the point ... Government over reaching protection vs. citizen's rights."
--'Rights'...what are those? The right to live one's life undisturbed by greater powers? The right to raise little ones without fear of unnatural intrusion? The right to conduct oneself as ones ancestors have for millennia? If you value these, then the peregrines' rights are looking good, because that's all they're trying to do. It is only in a completely human-centered world, where one is either a human citizen or an obstacle, that 'citizens' rights' take precedence over all living things.
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slevin
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Apr 12, 2010 - 01:28am PT
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The North American White Breasted and Freckled Peregrine is no longer an Endangered Species and has been off the ESL since the Summer of 1999. They are in fact proliferating rather well throughout the Sierra.
What are we talking about, 200 breeding pairs? A single epidemic of some bizarre avian illness can easily make such a group extinct, well beyond the the Endangered Species List.
My question to Jesse and all Raptor Closure hooya's, the transitory seasonal Swallows (Fly Catcher) and Ravens nest all over those walls as well. As do other species of birds. Why don't they get afforded the same protection status when one of their nests with chicks is found? Very simple. Bird of prey (or any predators, for that matter) are far more vulnerable to human influence as they require bigger habitats and are far less adaptable to the changes in food sources.
It's very comfortable to blame the government for your lack of desire to protect the environment. You leave trash in the middle of the forest - well that's because I don't like The Government telling me what to do. You leave a pile sh#t off the trail - well, that's because I don't like The Government telling me I can't just poo in the wilderness. The Americans are not alone here, if you want to see this sort of mentality taken to the max - go to Russia. In any case, laziness and carelessness do not pass for civil disobedience.
Oh yeah, Raven's can adapt to more environments than the Peregrine could ever try to. To me, that makes them far more powerful. Off course. That makes the city rats, roaches and pigeons most worthy of protection. Let's protect the species that are weak because they need protection.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Apr 12, 2010 - 01:38am PT
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Greg Orton makes a great point...and I'll echo that I'm glad they aren't closing the entire cliff.
But Greg, even though Jesse didn't spell out all they details of the plan here, in the past they have monitored the nests closely and removed climbing restrictions asap (example: Rostrum nest). When the restrictions were lifted notes were posted here and in Camp 4.
btw,
I took a Peregrine monitoring class with Greg at the Roseberg USFW office a few years ago. It was really interesting, and Greg really knows his stuff when it comes to these birds and their habitat.
Thanks for the post Greg. And ps we need some more guidebooks at the gym ;)
Matt
edit: oh and yeah I tend to agree with Mike. There are tons of Peregrines around El Cap. They hang out near the climbers. I think closing the one route that holds the nest so climbers don't accidentally climb right through it and send the poor chicks to the deck would be sufficient....but I'm no expert.
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2010 - 02:16am PT
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Greg, we will lift/end the closures in certain areas if the peregrines abandon their nests or never occupy a closed eyrie. We start the season off with historic eyries closed. Last year we lifted the closure on a couple areas by May.
In Yosemite we have changed the closure dates from Jan. 1st through Aug. 1st to March 1st though August 1st. Many other climbing areas still start the closure periods in January. The August 1st date is sometimes a couple weeks later and sometimes a couple weeks earlier than the ideal period depending on weather and other factors. We want to be consistent, but we will also try to open areas early if the fledlings are thriving and have stopped occupying the eyries.
We have also reduced the size of the previous El Capitan closures, and are allowing climbers to climb the initial 4 pitches. Through observation and cooperation with climbers we could continue to reduce recreational impacts for climbers.
I'm not directing this at anyone in particular, but maybe instead of complaining about the Yosemite closures, it may be a good idea for folks to contact their local land managers and point to how Yosemite is managing closures to minimize impacts on climbers.
Jesse
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slevin
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Apr 12, 2010 - 02:45am PT
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That is the way Nature works. That is why the species that adapts continues to exist. That's a wounderful excuse for not taking any measures to protect the environment or endangered species. It perfect - "why do something, it's just Nature taking it's course". As I said, a perfect excuse for laziness and indifference.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 12, 2010 - 02:55am PT
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There is a pair of peregrines that nest on the Grand Wall of the Stawamus Chief pretty much every year. Most years on a ledge about 400 m up and well to the right of the Grand Wall route, near a route called Freeway, although once right on the Grand. The closure is usually from spring through the end of July. All routes on either side for perhaps 200 m, except for the first few pitches off the ground. It seems to work reasonably well, although BC Parks could sometimes be more pro-active about messaging. Naturally there are some poachers - some day an example will be made of some. Community shaming if not charges.
There may be other pairs of peregrines in the Squamish area, noting that it's a major estuary on the Pacific flyway. There are zillions of birds there, lots of ravens, and a couple thousand bald eagles overwinter in Squamish. Our particular peregrines don't seem to be too affected by humans - one of the great pleasures of climbing the Split Pillar and Grand Wall in June or July is the the peregrines and fledglings swooping and stooping just off the wall. Perhaps the closure area could be smaller, perhaps not. And peregrinoia is a worry for some - the idea that birds, and nature, sometimes get priority in a park. Horrors!
A friend with a doctorate in raptor biology has mentioned that there are several sub-species of peregrines, some of which are quite shy, some not. Also that individual pairs have their own behaviours, but that most like to be safe. Here, the big problem is predation by ravens and bald eagles - a sole peregrine on a nest doesn't have much defence.
Like it or not, peregrines are an iconic species, and climbers meddle with them at our own risk - notwithstanding that the twitchers are sometimes quite irrational about the subject.
ps I liked the photo of the multi-coloured lizards from the Nose, but not the story of why they were there.
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slevin
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Apr 12, 2010 - 04:08am PT
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Once again....Peregrines are not endangered. They were removed from the list 11 years ago. Once again... Not being on the ESL does not mean that the species are thriving. But it's ok, let the nature take it course. While we are at it, we can ensure that the only surviving species are the ones that can breathe carbon monoxide, digest plastic and steal food from our trash.
As the the only intelligent and one of the dominant multi-cellular species on this planet, we have responsibility. Just my view.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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Apr 12, 2010 - 12:30pm PT
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there are several sub-species of peregrines, some of which are quite shy,
I've never heard of sub-species being defined by behavior although your friend may have only been noting a coincidental trait.
I would be interested to see the scientific definition of 'shy'. My ex is a wildlife biologist of no small repute (and now a citizen of the Great Northland) so I have a strongly ingrained sense of skepticism regarding wildlife biology 'findings'. I know they like to think they are applying bona fide scientific rigor to their studies but chemistry and physics it ain't.
A case in point is how the Spotted Owl's declining numbers were 'firmly' related to old-growth logging.
Now it appears that more honest observers are admitting that the Spotted's close relative the Barred has been muscling the Spotted out as the Barred is much more 'aggressive' and has been expanding its range in the west at the expense of the Spotted.
Another anecdote of interest to those of a certain antiquity is the fight over the Alaskan Pipeline. Those of us still able to remember will recall how the biologists were adamant that the pipeline would totally disrupt the caribou's migrations.
Earthen ramps were built over the pipeline every mile because the biologists said the caribou would be too 'shy' to
walk underneath it despite it being plenty high enough. Having worked at Kuparuk and Prudhoe Bay I can assure you that the caribou read none of those biologists' reports. If you drive around there on a nice summer day you will often be hard-pressed to see a caribou aside from the ones you may have had to shoo away from your truck in the camp parking lots. Away from the camps you would be advised to look for caribou standing under the pipe. It did not take them long to see the pipeline as a godsend for providing shade on a warm day and a venturi effect to amplify any bit of breeze to help keep those damn bugs off. And those ramps? Well, they turn out to be of some use. The bulls find them quite useful for standing guard over their harems as heatstroke and blood loss are small prices to pay for keeping your booty together.
Finally, as I've noted before, I did extensive research in preparation for my court case, the United States vs The Heinous Bird-Hater, back in '86. I had the temerity to disregard signs and willfully endangered a nesting falcon the species of which was never noted so it could have been a Prairie. Yes, Mr card-carrying Audubon member climbed a ridge separated from said nest by one statute mile horizontally and a canyon over 1000' deep and that was to the base of the 1500' cliff! Anyway, I was unable to find any meaningful research done in the US. However, I did find a good number of studies done in Britain and Australia which all generally concurred that Peregrines are rather unaffected by climbers as long as they stay away about 100' horizontally and don't climb directly beneath or, more importantly, directly above. One Australian study noted a nesting pair seemingly unaffected by a large housing development below their rather smallish crag. Those with a sense of humour will note that I was not allowed to present any of my research as I was 'unable' to establish the 'expert nature' of my sources, or some such nonsense.
In summary, rather than impugning my love for wildlife I ask that the discussion address scientific honesty and bureaucratic capriciousness in cherry-picking studies to base closures on. Or why do different agencies have different 'standards' if said standards are 'scientifically based'?
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greg orton
climber
Southwest Oregon
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Apr 13, 2010 - 12:03pm PT
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Jesse, I know your the messenger, but I feel a need for a follow up because this is a common problem in other areas, not just Yosemite.
In the closure notice is states that the Peregrine will be monitored and closure lifted once the young fledge, but then states in the last paragraph that the closure will extend to August 1, 2010. And you're response was "The August 1st date is sometimes a couple weeks later and sometimes a couple weeks earlier than the ideal period depending on weather and other factors. We want to be consistent, but we will also try to open areas early if the fledlings are thriving and have stopped occupying the eyries."
This discrepence in language is not only misleading, but in the wrong hands it has lead personality based closures rather than policy based closures. I'd like to see the notice just say in clear terms that the eyrie will be monitored and closure lifted after the young fledge. I don't feal the fear to protect a second nesting attempt justifies your ambiguous language.
In a previous message "Jack Herer" brought up the absurdity of the Menagerie closure on the Willamette National Forest in Western Oregon. With out going into details, the Menagerie has become a poster child to the abuse of power and mismanagement of public access that can take place when the wrong personalities are put in place to manage the same arbitrary language as in your closure.
Other than cleaning up the language of your closure, I support what you are doing. And I appreciate your extra efforts at communitcating your agencies policies to climbers.
For those who are questioning the reason for even having closures now that Peregrine have recovered. Yes, they are recovered, whether politically recovered or not. But, shouldn't our climbing be in balance with the climbing environment and not inspite or disregard of it? It is true that one failed eyrie will not cause a collaps in the Peregine population as a whole and send the Peregrine back into the Endangered species catagory. Nor will the lose of every eyrie on every climbing wall in America. What is lost is the essense of climbing. If you don't understand this then you may want to stay in the gym. Reasonable closures are a small price to pay for the opportunity to climb with Peregrine.
That said, I feel that a history of secrecy, over restictive public access, abuse of power, and arbitrary language have lead to warranted public mistrust. I feel we are still a few mediations or court cases away from bringing many of these arbitrary closures and abuses into line with what it means to have reasonable closures.
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JakeW
Big Wall climber
CA
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Apr 13, 2010 - 01:54pm PT
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If I ever find a partner and have a kid, I hope people don't climb through my nest.
I wish all humans made the choice to go light through the generations, like peregrines or bushmen, seeking to be in balance and leave room for diversity, which in turn means plenty of food and a high quality of life for those individuals that do live.
Unfortunately, evolution has, for now, favored humans who choose the success of the species through overpopulation, like ants. This requires a regulated society and a lot more work to force food out of the limited amount of space between us...since our immense presence hasn't left enough space for the free and wild existence of the plants and animals we eat.
I'm psyched to spend time in a place like Yosemite, that people have decided not to completely destroy, and I'm glad some people appreciate the other animals and plants here, pay attention to their lifestyles, and freely respect them, irregardless of laws.
Maybe someday people can return to a more free and wild existence, live more directly with, and in balance with the rest of life, and our presence will be small enough that we won't have to worry about what lives we might be exterminating with our everyday lifestyle...
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 13, 2010 - 03:15pm PT
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It seems to me they have done a pretty good job limiting the impacts to climbers in this case. Sure we might be able to whittle down the closures a little more, but that would take more research/money. What is closed is really pretty minimal and a small sacrifice to make IMO. When whole crags are closed that can be bogus but that's not the situation here.
Jesse, it's your job to get the word out, so I'd suggest you try to disengage from your emotions and personal feelings on the forum. It's difficult or impossible to change anyone's opinion on this so let it be. Other posters will point out the hyprocrisy, faulty logic, and selfishness in some posts. Just the facts, man.
Everyone is entitled to their opinions but all species are NOT equal IMO. Is killing a mosquito the same as killing a human? Animals at the top of the food chain are usually fewer in number, more intelligent, have deeper connections with each other, each individual is more important to the health of the ecosystem, etc. I think they deserve greater protection, unless another animal species is threatened/endangered.
I appreciate the concerns that bureacracy sometimes only serves to perpetuate itself but that is only part of the picture. Otherwise people wouldn't devote so much of their own time and energy into it.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 13, 2010 - 03:19pm PT
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 13, 2010 - 03:40pm PT
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Greg,
Thanks for your input. Chief implied that you are one of the "raptor research folks", is that true? You obviously know a lot about peregrines and closures. You bring up reasonable points, and I appreciate the non-inflammatory tone. I'd like you to get in touch with our park ornithologist, and start a dialogue with her. Email me directly at:
jesse_mcgahey@nps.gov,
and I will forward your email to her. It has been mentioned here several times that, "you (I am) are only a messenger.." This is actually not totally true. I may not be a wildlife biologist, but I work closely with all areas of resource management when it comes to climbing impacts. I don’t mind if that gives folks more reason to throw the blunt of their criticism directly at me.
Yesterday I was talking with the park ornithologist about this thread. Quite frankly she was shocked at the crass comments and insensitivity about the way some climbers see the value of peregrines nesting in their native habitat. This is only the third time since 1995 that we will conduct a thorough survey of peregrine eyries. The surveys actually benefit climbers by ways you alluded to. When we are monitoring the nests frequently we can open closed areas immediately if an eyrie is confirmed as unoccupied. If we are not monitoring the eyries, the park, wishing to err on the side of caution in favor of the native wildlife, will continue to issue blanket closure.
This year we worked together to establish the extent of the NA area closure. The closure duration is shorter than it was in the 80s and 90s, the width of the closure is smaller than before (Aurora and Tangerine Trip are now not included), and we are allowing climbing on the first 4 pitches of the routes.
The knee jerk reaction of some in Yosemite management is, "Jeez, if this is the way climbers are going to treat us when we are reducing the extent of closures why should we continue to make concessions." I continuously remind management that the few loud voices on Supertopo are not representative of the wider climbing community.
Here is an example to illustrate how the perception of the “selfish entitled” climber can impact the rest of us. A few years (2006) ago when at a Camp 4 National Historic Registry dedication ceremony a few climbers taunted the Chief Ranger and Superintendent as they spoke. Their speeches were celebrating the history of climbing in Yosemite and the significance of Camp 4 in that history, and could have been a moment for climbers to use the positive momentum in their favor. At the time I felt like I was really close to getting a modest change to the stay limits at Camp 4. After the incident the conversation was over.
To be continued,
Jesse
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 13, 2010 - 03:58pm PT
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Greg, you seem willing to have a respectful dialogue with the NPS and other land managers. You also indicate that you appreciate and understand the need for land managers to establish regulations to protect wildlife and wild values, while maintaining access. It would be constructive for other here to follow your lead.
I would bet many of the protected areas around the country that are not doing a good job managing closures in favor of less restrictions don't have the funding for surveys. This is an area where the Access Fund or other climbing interest groups should get involved to help.
Yosemite has not received base funding (from congress) for peregrine surveys. This year, as I mentioned before, the entire survey is paid for through the Jeff Maurer Memorial fund that his family has set aside to continue some of the work he dedicated his life to.
One reason Jeff indicated for the August 1st "arbitrary" end of closure date--it lowers the risk of climbers violating closure(with active and occupied eyries) if they have a hard date to follow. As this thread has clearly indicated, many climbers think they know better than the wildlife biologists about peregrine nesting. If the end of he closure was indicated by language such as "when the chicks have fledged and have left the eyrie," many climbers would use that to their advantage to begin climbing in an area when they thought it was appropriate. By giving climbers a scheduled opening date we give them a consistent expectation.
Like I said, as long as we are monitoring nesting areas, we will revise closures when justified. This year I can almost guarantee that some of the listed closed areas will be found not to have active peregrine nesting, and we will open those areas. On the flip side we might find other nesting areas that weren't included in the original closure, such as the El Capitan eyrie.
Please feel free to email me anytime, I'm open for a phone call as well.
jesse_mcgahey@nps.gov
209.372.0360
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 13, 2010 - 04:26pm PT
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While there are valid arguments on both sides of the issue, there's really no way of resolving the difference of opinions without potentially affecting the birds. Given that the NPS management is oriented toward resource and wildlife protection, I'm grateful that they have given climbers the considerations Jesse listed below and that we have a diplomatic intermediary between the climbing community and the NPS Brass. Thanks for hanging in the middle of a controversial situation with grace bro.
Jesse wrote
...in this case we have opened up at least 2 previously closed routes from the old El Cap closures (Native Sun, and Tangerine Trip). We have also allowed for climbing the first 4 pitches of any route. This means you could actually start climbing some of these routes a couple days before the end of the closure if you take it slow :) This is based on hours of observations, and we agree that the Trip and Native Sun seem to be too far away. ...
PEace
karl
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R.B.
climber
..
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Apr 13, 2010 - 09:56pm PT
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Jesse,
I just wanted to say that my previous comments about the closure comes from my past-experiences of frustration of climbing areas being closed because of public land use managers over-reaching.
I speak for myself, but I know that I speak for the climbing community as well, that no climber intentionally wants to adversely impact even a "SPECIES OF CONCERN" such as the Peregrin.
I feel the closures would be reasonable, if based on constant monitoring of the nest and lifting the regs when indicated.
It is really hard to determine the "Tone" of an email or post .. and I think sometimes, we all misread the intent of something someone may post when they have a legitimate question or comment.
I wanted to give you Kudos for stepping up to the plate and reaching out the public. This is part of the process that often is left out of the govt. decision making process. Thank SuperTaco for giving the opportunity for the public forum to give input.
For future reference, public process and hearings are often required under the National Environmental Policy Act or even at the State Enviromental Policy Act (NEPA and SEPA) before a Government agency can proceed forward with a certain study or programmed capital projects. I say this out of WAY experience.
So once again. Thank you for reaching out to the public and being able to take the flak when it came your way.
Sincerely, RB
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Apr 13, 2010 - 10:22pm PT
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Your tone wasn't misread by anyone dude.
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greg orton
climber
Southwest Oregon
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Apr 14, 2010 - 03:17am PT
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Jesse,
No, I'm not a bio, just another climber. I actually think we met once in Colorado. Thank you for providing the opportunity for a direct link.
I understand the frustration one feels at reading public opinion. But, I feel these open forums are a great way for climbers and managers to air their frustrations and maybe come away with new understanding. It is often easier to absorb another perspective when reading it without feeling the need to respond. For the most part climbing is one of the few remaining self-managed sports, as it should be. A key element to this self-management is open peer dialog which occurs regardless of one's experience level or ability to articulate. Jesse, I appreciate your ability to hang in there and remain objective.
Chief, your suggestion that it would surely be nice if all the Raptor research folks nationwide, could all come together and design/standardize a Closure Protocol for any Raptor Closure throughout the nation is greatly needed and being discussed. The current standards for managing Peregrine were developed in the '80s and '90s when the Peregrine were starting to make their comeback from DDT exposure and an unchallenged willingness to error towards over protection was at its greatest. The need for such a review in my opinion has never been greater. The more obvious the recovery becomes the less the funding to monitor and manage them will be and the fewer experienced objective biologist there will be. On top of this, States are already beginning to issue take permits to Falconers. This in itself is not a problem except that the easiest eyries to access are the ones that are being foraged and some of our climbing areas are being affected. In my view, climbers will and should play a key role in helping to maintain active Peregrine populations in our climbing areas.
Chief, you also had the insight to compair differnces between Peregrine and ravens. Raven obviously have learned to use humans to their advantage. A study in Spain (if I remember correctly, sorry I can't find my copy) several years ago looked at areas with Peregrine and Ravens on the same cliff and found a 50% reduction in fleglings. They also looked at the monitoring results from eyries without ravens that had unrestricted year around climbing where they also felt they were seeing a 50% reduction in fleglings. Then they looked at eyries were there were both ravens and unrestricted climbing and they saw a 100% reduction in fleglings, persumably because ravens had learned to wait until climbers distracted the adults to raid the nest. This report also enforced in me the need to maintain a reasonable closure until the young have fledged.
Great pictures, Fet!
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 14, 2010 - 02:00pm PT
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Nature will adapt to the constant changing surrounding forces, in it's own fashion without our help.
We humans can not accept that we can not control that mechanism. We think that we can, but in fact, we never will. We are just another organism within this infinite Universe of chaos.
If you are talking about natural processes I agree with you to a point (we can still have impact in some instances). But we aren't talking about natural processes, we are talking about human caused impacts. We aren't just another organism we are the only organism that is entirely capable of wiping out most life on Earth (e.g. from a global nuclear war) and we are probably the organism that can cause the most rapid change to any environment. With our technology and huge numbers we are a force like no other. And as spiderman's dad says with great power comes great responsibility. We are smart enough to determine where our actions are causing harm, and hopefully we are compassionate enough and appreciate the natural world enough to change our actions to reduce or eliminate our harmful actions, and that may sometimes require some sacrifice.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 14, 2010 - 02:04pm PT
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This is just the final stage of Affirmative Action for the birds, who can't be expected to immediately adapt to humans having put a big poison in their reproductive chain. When it's clear they are really well established, they won't need this and can adapt. For now, giving them the space to make sure they are OK isn't such a sacrifice,
Peace
Karl
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Apr 14, 2010 - 10:08pm PT
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R.B.- "In 1978 the first successful nest site was recorded after 36 years by rock climbers on El Cap."
I believe this was an ascent of the North American Wall by Dave Bircheff et al. Dave suffered frostbite to his feet and i was privileged to do a little climbing with him during his recuperation! I believe he mentioned something to that effect...Werner would probably know.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Apr 14, 2010 - 10:26pm PT
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Karl- "For now giving them the space..."
I agree with Karl!
Furthermore, much like the Monarch Butterfly, which migrates thousands of miles from Canada, across the USA and the Sonoran Desert to a small grove of trees in the Serra Madre Mts. in Southern Mex.
Or perhaps the Pacific Salmon which migrate from thousands of miles out in the Pacific, back to the same river and specific tributary(among hundreds)to spawn. As do the Steelhead trout etc.
Personally i believe they were led there, but that is outside of this debate.
Regardless, i believe it would be a noble sacrifice, to climb elsewhere, tell more is known to support one side or the other!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Apr 19, 2010 - 12:21pm PT
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I am all in favour of giving the nesting birds all the room they need. But do they really need so much room?
El Capitan is enormous, and it is unfathomable to me that climbers on Pacific Ocean Wall or Iron Hawk could in any way disturb nesting birds on the NA Wall route, which is so far away.
How was such a wide swath of wall deemed to be off-limits to climbers? Could the width of this exclusionary zone please be re-examined?
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Double D
climber
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Apr 19, 2010 - 12:46pm PT
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Jessie asked: I am curious, who were the original climbers to notice the active peregrine nest in 1978? Are they on this forum?
That would be Sea of Dreams. We came very close to the nest, hence the name Perigrine Pillar. Within a week or so we were called into a closed door meeting with some folks from Washington DC and Kurt (last name???) an ornithologist from Yale I believe. Anyway the park service presented the data and Kurt backed up the behavioral tendencies of the birds to abandon nests that had too much human exposure (sometimes like 30-40 minutes). There were some other issues that were discussed that we were sworn to secrecy on but the bottom line was they asked us to stand behind the decision for seasonal closures and talk to the climbing community about it, which we were happy to do.
I worked with Kurt on several occasions as a climber stealing eggs and replacing fake ones. He’s a fascinating guy and I was blown away at his knowledge of these magnificent birds.
I am a bit puzzled about other closures though, as they seem to be very indiscriminate and not based at all upon the birds actual hatching sites. We have an area of 40-60’ cliffs here in So UT (Black Rocks) that gets closed and not only have I never seen the birds right there but I’ve never seen them nest on such small cliffs with an abundance of higher cliffs in the immediate area. It seems as though there’s been a bit of license taken. Also hearing about castle rock closures…seems odd.
Dave Diegelman
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tinker b
climber
the commonwealth
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Apr 20, 2010 - 04:09pm PT
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just an update on the perigrines in the valley.
on saturday there was a climbing accident on the 5th pitch of royal arches. i do not know the details of the accident, except that two helicopters were involved in the rescue effort. the park ornitholigist watched the peregrine nest over on the rombus wall... during the rescue the peregrines abandoned their nest. they returned sunday, but it is unclear if the eggs where able to stay warm enough without a parent there all day to survive. hopefully they will. it is a reminder that sometimes as climbers we intend to be quiet and not creat that much impact, but if we need a rescue our scope of impact expands beyond the route we are on.
peace,
jo-lynne
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Fuzzywuzzy
climber
suspendedhappynation
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Kurt Stolzenberg? Rob Ramey?
From the 1988 book Hawks in Flight by Dunne, Sibley and Sutton:
"The Peregrine Falcon, a medium-sized raptor, has long been a source of inspiration. At one time, during the Middle Ages, it denoted social status; only lords could fly a Peregrine from the fist. More recently, the bird has served as a rallyng point and as evidence of the impact of pesticides on the environment. Other considerations aside, the Peregrine Falcon is a creature whose awesome mastery of its element sets new standards for the work "perfection." Few works of nature or man equal the sight of a Peregrine in the wind.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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So I am rather curious why a rescue on the 5th pitch of RA would necessitate one let alone two choppers unless somebody was in cardiac arrest and even then why two? I can't imagine easier or safer litter lowering.
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WBraun
climber
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Reilly ... "I can't imagine easier or safer litter lowering."
Easier said then done in your arm chair.
There's a few details that you do not know about this Royal Aches sar that went down during that time.
We did not have SAR team at that time. We only had 5 people available total including me..
All our resources for an event like this where not in the park at that time. We were totally short handed.
The second chopper was Med flight because the original diagnosis at the scene was a possible broken pelvis and or hip which the Yosemite clinic does not have the resources to deal with.
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