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mooser
Trad climber
seattle
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JL - your last post was really (from my perspective) excellent. You took a series of totalistic diatribes (from Dr. F), and brought reason and reflection back into the mix. I've really come to respect (for lack of a better term) your "appreciative agnosticism" on matters of spirituality and psychology.
And Juan, hang in there, man. You've got some great support from some pretty thoughtful and caring folks here. There are clearly quite a few who can look back at moments that seemed pretty bleak, and recognize how they got through--and are getting through. I hope their stories encourage you.
Tom Patterson
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Dr. Hunter wrote: "Depression is profoundly complicated and we scientists do not understand it very well at all."
Another factor with depression and other challenges that have a strong physical aspect, is that the symptomology changes a lot, meaning you're often looking at a moving target. One day it can be a sleep disorder, another day, anxiety, yet another, the blues, and so forth and so on. The reason why the strict medical model isn't especially useful for this is beause actual diseases don't present like this. For example, diabetes doesn't look like gout one day and influenza the next. So in this regards, listed to the scientist: "Pofoundly complicated."
It's my impression that understanding how causality works in human life is totally key in treating depression and other disorders like this. What's more, changing how we feel is the consequence of doing things diffrently - a little understood dynamic, and one of the reasons that talk therapy is often of little use in this. Also, the idea opf working a "program" is very useful in this regards.
JL
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pa
climber
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What is Chemistry, then?
The term comes originally from Arabic, then was latinized to
"keme" = "value". It is the science of matter. (Wikipedia)
Odd how the science of matter is named in terms of value.
A very insubstantial term to describe our most staunch idea of density.
One asks, Why the depression?
Perhaps, it is not a "matter" of Why, but of Who...
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WBraun
climber
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"Why the depression."
Hopelessness
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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How you doing lately, Juan?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Reilly,
Why do you say this?This can't be good:
"FAA: Pilots allowed to take antidepressants on job"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100402/ap_on_bi_ge/us_pilots_antidepressants
To me, that's simply the converse of the "depression is only a chemical imbalance" argument. As Dr. Hunter, Largo and others suggest, we still don't know that much about depression. My medication might merely work like an expensive placebo, but it certainly worked to get me back to (and maybe a little beyond) my pre-depressed self. Without many years of functioning at this level unmedicated, I wouldn't trust myself in any responsible position without proper medication. I, and those around me, have complete confidence in my performance now, however.
I think the thrust of the FAA reg change is to allow those whose depression is demonstrably under control to fly. Otherwise, the de facto rule would be that no one may pilot who suffers from depression. That would exlude a lot of extremely capable people.
John
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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John,
Since my knowledge of such is strictly anecdotal I supposed it
based on hearing how people aren't necessarily at their
sharpest when on anti-depressants. That wouldn't matter in most
professions. The FAA also has a time-honored tradition of
questionable decisions.
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jstan
climber
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Where is the data supporting the assertion abnormally large numbers of climbers suffer from depression? Since the condition itself is not easily defined, there will have to be some solid data.
"And as Coz pointed out, a lot of it has to do with being "bound by self," or being crazy self-absorbed. That cycle also has to be broken by various means, one of which is being of service to others."
I have to say I get depressed on those weeks when I take the time to stare at my navel 24x7.
I have found choosing goals and then going all out for them leaves one little good navel gazing time. And then if one never forgets that quitting easily becomes a habit, depression becomes simply a waste of otherwise useful time.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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jstan,
I'd suggested the possibility (as opposed to asserting its existence) that the populations of climbers contains a higher proportion of people with depression. I think that was on a different thread, though.
The mental health professionals with whom I've dealt all say that lawyers have an abnormally high rate of depression. I know more lawyers than climbers (how's that for a really damning admission?) but I know more climbers who've committed suicide than lawyers who have done so. I based my conjecture on that observation.
John
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Peenemunde
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So I am a bit concerned. Do Antidepresives work?
Am I fighting a losing battle?
I really trying to hang in. But its not easy.
Juan
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drunkenmaster
Social climber
santa rosa
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just heard on the "news" that it is now legal to fly a plane on anti depressants - not sure what to think about this??
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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JDF,
I'm not saying that antidepressants always work. I'm saying that professional help almost always makes things better, and I'm quite certain it will help you.
I might as well tell my full story, because I hope that if you see how low depression took me, and therefore how far I've recovered, you'll see that what looks hopeless is not so.
Since 1991, I've had the highest legal peer-reviewed rating (Martindale-Hubbell "AV") and through the 1990's, at least, had a very admired, successful and lucrative law practice. Although I had momentary bouts of depression since at least 1994, they always went away on their own, so I didn't think I had a medical condition.
That changed in about 2002. Gradually, over the next few years, I grew unable to accomplish even the simplest of tasks at work without monumental effort. In addition, I slowly stopped climbing (a sure sign of illness!), playing the piano, cycling, and just about everything else that I formerly enjoyed. In addition, by then, my wife said I'd become very withdrawn. I slept inordinately. Both my wife and my secretary worried that I was suffering from depression, but I blew them off. I thought that I'd just snap out of it, and anything that was behind in the office would be cured by a couple of extra Saturdays of work.
I was wrong. Finally, in 2005, one client for whom I started litigation, but then stalled, had enough. She said she was coming to my office to see the results of the litigation I'd promised her. I knew it would take her about 45 minutes to get there. Desperate not to be confronted with my inaction, I made up a pleading, and even faked a court order. That latter act was one of forgery and counterfeiting under federal law, and something no sane lawyer would do. I gave her the "order," hoping to shut her up long enough for me to do my job.
Well, the good news was that the immorality of my action really did wake me up. Within a few minutes of her leaving my office, I was so appalled with what I'd done (or to my way of thinking, what I'd become -- a liar) that I immediately sought professional help. A few days later, I went to the court to tell them what happened. Unbeknownst to me, my client was already there, and the court clerk suspected what I'd done before I fessed up. My client had also already gone to the FBI, and my legal goose was cooked.
By then, though, I was hooked up with a physician and a psychologist, each of whom shared my Christian faith. I got good medication and good therapy. I also hooked up with a group of lawyers dealing with mental health and substance abuse issues (although the latter has never been an issue for me, the two often go hand-in-hand. Probably a form of self-medication.)
Talk about an inopportune time to regain my sanity! I saw in my immediate future at least the following: (1) the end of my career; (2) the destruction of my reputation; (3) abject poverty; and (4) no discernable way out. In fact, reality was worse in all respects except no. (4).
My wife had not worked outside our home or my office for almost 20 years, and had let her nursing license lapse. I knew my law license wouldn't remain for long, and I had already decided that I could not take any more new clients, and that I needed to refer all of my existing ones out so that I could end my practice. Unfortunately, our debts still remained. I had to file personal bankruptcy. I resigned from the Bar. I was indicted for forgery, pled guilty, and was sentenced to six months in federal prison. Had I known all this when I first went for help, i certainly would have seen no way out.
Nonetheless, several amazing things started happening then. First and foremost, friends started coming out of the woodwork. Virtually all of the legal community lined up to help me. My church rallied around us. My family did the same. Instead of rejecting me, they came to me. It was like being at my own funeral, and hearing all those nice things people say about you. Perhaps as importantly, they all knew that something had been wrong with me, and were delighted that I was finally doing something about it. Although I cannot excuse my dishonesty, everyone I care about has foregiven that dishonesty.
As my mental ability returned, so did my business opportunities. I had been, in addition to an attorney, an econometrician since 1973. My old roommate from college needed econometric help, and came to me. We're still working together. In addition, after serving my sentence (which I treated like a vacation, but that's another story), two lawyers I'd trained 20 years before hired me to be a sort of in-house scholar. The combination of these two jobs, plus my wife rejoining the nursing profession, is providing sufficient income. More importantly I am the happiest I have been in decades. Even though I'm 58 and had to start over at age 56 when I got out of prison, I see a good future for us.
I hope you conclude that whatever is in your future, it can't be much worse (and, I hope, it is much less worse) than what I went through. We all can help. You're not facing a hopeless battle.
Unfortunately for my comments, but fortunately for my wallet, I need to do some paying work now, but email me if you need someone who's been through the Valley of the Shadow of Death, but now fears no evil. That offer stands, by the way, for anyone dealing with depression.
John
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Wow, quite a story John. It seems there are a lot of these tales of woe on this thread. I won't tell my tale, because it pales in comparison to some on here, but it is fairly common and treatable, but each lesson is definitely unique and requires a unique approach. I'm not the first to say it. Let go, be patient and take help in whatever form it comes, and it comes in strange forms. Some folks need to get pretty dark before they can accept the light.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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My hat is off to John for the above post. You're the man. Way to live.
A5 aid climbers, I can't see doing that if you aren't depressed, but I guess some like it anyway.
Depressed or not, we're all struggling for meaning and satisfaction in life. We have to give heartfelt contemplation on where fulfillment comes from to find the path to wholeness.
Sometimes the depressed people have a leg up on that, because they know they aren't happy, others are just sleeping
Peace
Karl
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Jengi
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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I am touched by all the caring encouragement posted to this topic... a great bunch of folks!
Juan, if you are in a place where you need to do something now, call your doctor - or the suicide prevention hotline - now.
Tell them you think you are depressed, that you are having dark thoughts, and that you need help. They will evaluate your situation and provide referrals and/or drugs.
USA National Suicide Hotlines
Toll-Free / 24 hours / 7 days a week
1-800-SUICIDE
1-800-784-2433
1-800-273-TALK
1-800-273-8255
TTY: 1-800-799-4TTY (4889)
http://suicidehotlines.com/california.html
Come back to this forum when you need encouragement. Contact those that have offered and if possible speak to them.
One step at a time, Buddy!
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WBraun
climber
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Huh?
You don't think for a moment that JuanDeFuca doesn't know all this sh'it!
He's a real smart guy who knows the art of trolling ......
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Jingy
Social climber
Nowhere
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Alex has a good point...
"2. your mind still holds images / sounds / scents of times when u werent so depressed
3 - a believable achievable forward vision to get u to one of these not depressed places in your future picture of things is possible
This is the exact method I use when I get struck by the fog of depression..
I have a memory of a time when I was not in the fog.. that thought is usually enough to keep me going...
Just know that you will make it through.. in your own due time... it may be difficult, and a huge struggle.. but it's possible to make it through without thoughst of JC (which ultimately is your own inner voice assuming the possition of JC) or with presciption drugs (which is a nice way of putting off until tomorrow when can be cured today....) I don't think that paying a big drug company for your personal "happy thoughts" is the way to go, but that's just me. Like Alex says...its an expense that I cannot afford.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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JDF
I'm truly sorry to hear the experiences you've been having.
It's not fun. I know. Like John above, I experienced a couple of
bad periods in my life. Almost to suicide the first time, but fortunately
got help--both psychological and medical. Twenty years later my
mother died, and my fiance dumped me almost simultaneously.
I didn't want to die, but I wished I were dead. But I was already
in counseling and had a good doctor. I was ready to check myself
into the hospital for it, but managed to get enough help and not
have to. I really feared that. But the meds are a strange thing.
I've been on quite a few of them, and it takes time to find the
correct one and the right dosage of it also. Sometimes the side-effects
really suck too.
But I urge you to get professional help--those guys know what they
are doing, but if you aren't happy with a doctor, get another one.
With counseling and finding the right medication you can get the
spring back into your step and the joy of life.
I hope you'll get the help and work things out.
My very best wishes to you.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Whether or not Juan/Jeff/LA is trolling, this seems to have been a useful discussion for many. I don't have any personal or family experience with this affliction, but think it's quite likely that some relative or friend has had depression, even if transient and not apparent to others. Noting that Canadians tend to be more reticent about discussing such personal matters with family and friends, let alone others.
One lesson seems to be that these sorts of things may be more prevalent than might be thought, aren't all that well understood, and that there's nothing "wrong" with having depression, or seeking treatment. Another seems to be that there are a variety of treatments that may help, but many are external. Some may be able to pull themselves up by their soulstraps, but not many. And that the treatments may include time, exercise, volunteering, community and commitments to others (family, friends, climbing community...), informal or formal therapy (friends/family/colleagues, minister, psychologist...), religion, philosophy, and drugs.
And the real lesson is that there's nothing wrong with seeking help, or at least finding out if there's reason for you to seek help.
If there objectively is an increasing prevalence of such afflictions, then you have to wonder about the values of our society. Shallow materialism doesn't correlate well with happiness, and there's some evidence that once people are reasonably comfortable in the material sense (per capita income about half of the US), they don't get happier with more money.
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