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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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Mar 10, 2010 - 12:51pm PT
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Rope anchors can be set up very quickly... but ditto about having to switch leads.
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nutjob
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Mar 10, 2010 - 12:52pm PT
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I mostly use double ropes, and clove hitch directly to the pieces, in serial if I can get more than 2 placements. Usually don't clip both strands to the same piece.
If the individual placements are shaky, and I have a decent stance, I'll belay off my harness to absorb the load of follower. If anchor is shaky because I ran out of the right size pieces, I'll shore it up when the follower arrives with gear, before they launch off on the next lead.
If the anchor pieces are good, I'll put an extra 'biner for each rope as a directional and back down to my harness ATC, so I have a top-rope effect using my body weight to suck in the slack when the follower climbs up to me (rather than pulling up against gravity with my arms and belaying straight off my harness ATC. This makes a huge difference for me to fend off arm flame-out on all-day climbs. I just rock back and forth at the belay stance using my core muscles to pull in slack.
Often when I try to set up anchors the official preferred way, I jack around wasting time, end up with a power point below my center of gravity so I can't use the stance and comfortably belay, etc. When I catch myself in that little cycle I say F it and go back to serial clove hitches. Sometimes I do hybrid with sliding X's on a few weak pieces close together as sub-points for the serial clove hitches, etc. Whatever is fast and good enough to keep things from blowing out.
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DanaB
climber
Philadelphia
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Mar 10, 2010 - 01:04pm PT
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Chiloe's anchor may not be equalized, but that consideration is far down the list.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Mar 10, 2010 - 01:29pm PT
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I only use the rope when I need something long to get around a block or something or I've run out of slings. I just like the idea of a stand alone anchor for leading in blocks or escaping the belay. Being able to escape the belay is like wearing a seat belt or a helmet, it's cheap insurance, you might never need it but when you do you'll be happy.
The rope has much better shock absorbtion than slings/cords though.
I use a pretied slidingX with limiter knots on two good pieces 95% of the time. Faster than anything including 2 clove hitches with the rope, and gives a nice powerpoint.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Mar 10, 2010 - 01:45pm PT
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Fatty- other failures I've heard of were on the DNB and in the Sandias.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Mar 10, 2010 - 01:47pm PT
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Fatty and I have found an area where we are in complete agreement.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 10, 2010 - 01:48pm PT
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It is so situation-dependent that there are no universal rules, and it's futile to seek them. I very often tie in directly with the rope. Simpler, faster, uses less gear, usually no shortage of rope. But sometimes I don't.
It's a bit like those endless threads on equalizing anchors. Sometimes important, often nearly irrelevant. As long as the anchors are solid and you're tied to them, exactly how you're tied to them is less important.
The supposedly perfect in these situations is often the enemy of the good, and the practical. It may be perfect on paper, and perhaps even in reality. But if takes an hour to set up, half your rack, and ten years' experience, other factors intrude. KISS.
And I sometimes belay off my harness, sometimes through the anchors or a directional. Depends on the situation and needs. Adaptability counts.
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Prod
Trad climber
Dodge Sprinter Dreaming
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Mar 10, 2010 - 01:53pm PT
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How many of you belay from your harness and then the first clip is the anchor, and how many of you belay from the anchor?
And why do you do one or the other?
Depends, Mostly I belay off of my harness though. Every now and then I'll put the second on the anchor if the anchor is situated above my shoulders. I just like that setup with a reversoIII.
I don't think I have ever belayed a leader off of an anchor? Does anybody do that?
Prod.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Mar 10, 2010 - 01:59pm PT
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It is so situation-dependent that there are no universal rules
Quite so, as Donini and others also said.
Regarding that 3-piece anchor in my photo upthread, we could have a discussion here about equalization and shock loading in theory, perhaps devolving into one of those sessions where people photograph rigs on their floor at home. Jim's tests trump at least one part of that discussion, IMO.
But my conversation with myself on the cliff involved some things that aren't in the photo, or my living room. Not just the relative quality of each piece but also the direction, difficulty and protection opportunities I could see on the next pitch.
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AndyG
climber
San Diego, CA
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Mar 10, 2010 - 02:03pm PT
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Pate,
If you have used the rope in the anchor and are then leading the next pitch there is no need to rebuild the anchor to get your end out of the anchor. Just switch rope ends with your second. That way you don't need to re-flake the rope either. (obviously tie in with something else temporarily while switching rope ends.)
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aa-lex
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 10, 2010 - 02:05pm PT
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Sweet thanks for all the replies guys! I like ec and donini's responses - keep it simple and don't always do it one way. I guess that was my reason for asking about using the rope. Having less things means simpler to me. Though the cordolette is not really any weight. I suppose I'll continue to carry the cordolette yet begin using rope anchors and see where that takes me.
As far as belay - I usually belay off the anchor when the follower's coming up and switch it to off of me when they start leading.
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aa-lex
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 10, 2010 - 02:11pm PT
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thanks coz but i don't need a guide. not worried about my anchoring skills. just wanna know about using the rope as it is the one thing i've never employed in my climbing experience and it seems worthy of discussing.
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mongrel
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Mar 10, 2010 - 02:29pm PT
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Thread drift to shock loading (myth or reality?). It seems to me that the empirical evidence of some multi-piece anchors having failed fatally is enough data for me to believe that bad consequences are a very real possibility from shock loading. I'd love to see some physicists or people in the rope biz post up here, but here's my understanding: When a falling climber comes to the end of the slack in the rope, the rope's maximum impact force is not attained instantaneously, but gradually (albeit quickly). Then it decreases again down to the static load of the climber's weight. I bet someone can find a printout curve to post (or link to). So, if the anchor remains intact, all pieces experience the same shape of force curve (with the magnitude divided by the number of pieces with minor correction for the vectors of the equalette). In a non-equalized or sliding X situation where one piece fails during the force upload, the climbing rope is now up into the high part of the impact force curve which is near-instantaneously transferred to the remaining piece, potentially initiating failure. Anyone who has shoved around heavy boxes or rocks for construction knows that it's usually harder to get the thing moving than to keep it in motion. So it's easy to picture a practical scenario under which the sudden transfer of already-high impact force to a piece (first there's a moderate force, then momentary total release, then very sudden high force) can lead to disaster. And, to say again, it has happened in the real climbing world - doesn't sound mythical to me. I'm open to correction on this, anyone more knowledgeable about the applied physics of climbing ropes care to educate us?
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Mar 10, 2010 - 02:38pm PT
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As far as it being more difficult to get a body to move vs. keeping it moving, that's the difference between static friction and dynamic (or kinetic) friction.
The force of impact is a function of the mass times the acceleration, i.e. f=ma. The amount of force that impacts the anchor is related to rate at which the force is aplied. If the impact is accelerated more slowly, then less force is applied.
Unfortunately it is typically extremely difficult to analise what caused and anchor failure as all you have is gear that pulled at the base of a route. How were the anchors loaded, what direction was the force appied to the anchors, what other factors contributed to the failure.
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scuffy b
climber
Where only the cracks are dry
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Mar 10, 2010 - 02:45pm PT
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Empirical evidence of multi-piece anchors failing does not, in fact, say
anything about shock loading.
All it says is that none of the pieces that failed was particularly great.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 10, 2010 - 03:04pm PT
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> I'd just like to add that when you're doing all the leading,
> using the lead rope to tie an anchor is not an option.
> Obvious, but something I've forgotten while in the act.
> Not much fun re-building the anchor and switching over to
> the new one in order to extricate yourself.
Actually, you can swap people at the anchor without much hassle.
1. Fast way: follower puts you on belay (your belay of them is tied off). Unclove your rope from the first anchor piece, clove them in. Repeat for the other pieces.
2. Slower way: clip a free biner into each piece where you are cloved.
Clove your follower into the free biners. They put you on belay, then you unclove from the biners you were in and take those biners.
I never use a cordellete or a daisy. Often my partner uses a daisy; they can daisy in to one piece and clove to another.
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Morgan
Trad climber
East Coast
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Mar 10, 2010 - 03:20pm PT
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Block leading using the rope as an anchor does not seem that problematic on a typical multi-pitch sport climb with bomber two-bolt belay anchors. If you don't want to switch ends of the rope, the leader clips two carabiners into each bolt and clove hitches or whatever into the bottom two biners. When the second comes up the rope closest to him can be anchored the same way into the top two carabiners. When the leader is on belay again, she unclips from the bottom two carabiners and takes them along. In terms of managing the rope, the leader lap coils it starting with smaller loops going to bigger loops. When the second is anchored securely, do the "pancake flop" onto the 2nd's tie-in. Now the small loops are on top of the bigger loops and the rope is ready to feed.
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bmacd
Trad climber
Beautiful, BC
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Mar 10, 2010 - 03:24pm PT
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Sliding x's always worked for me. So has building anchors with the lead rope, which is all I have ever done. Cordalettes are certainly not failsafe, and good for only one specific direction of pull, good for walls, but ... other routes require other solutions for speed and safety IMHO.
Make your body part of the belay station load dynamics, because at some point in your climbing career that may be the only part, or the best part of the belay station.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Mar 10, 2010 - 03:45pm PT
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don't always do it one way
It's good to have multiple tools in your bag of tricks, but I find it's faster and probably more fool proof to stick with one method most of the time.
I also think what works for some might not work the best for you. Find what you like the best after trying the different options.
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