3 to 1 hauling

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Messages 41 - 53 of total 53 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Mar 2, 2011 - 12:18am PT
Now that made cents....

Thanks Pete!
hoipolloi

climber
A friends backyard with the neighbors wifi
Mar 2, 2011 - 02:07am PT
I suspect good pully on bottom...


Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Mar 2, 2011 - 02:12am PT
Perhaps a pushmi-pullyu ought to be employed. One of Dr. Seuss', that is.
Morgan

Trad climber
East Coast
Mar 2, 2011 - 07:53am PT
Wouldn't distance prove the point? With an adjustable daisy you raise yourself 1 foot for every 1 foot you pull down on the other side (1:1). With the 2:1 hauling ratchet, grigri/ascender/redirect ascending method, far-end hauling, you are moving the load 1 foot of distance for every 2 feet you pull down.

This is more about effort than distance: Say you had a 200 lb. crate on a concrete floor and you wanted to move it. (Kind of like hauling to Mammoth, but smoother and less steep). I guarantee it would be easier to move that crate hauling from an eye bolt fixed to the wall, going through a pulley on the crate, and the free end of the rope going to you, than it would be to have the rope tied to your waist, going through a pulley on the crate and the free end coming back to you.

In answer to your other question (edited), best pulley closest to the person hauling. Theoretical Mechanical Advantage (TMA) of 2.76T vs. 2.67T for the other way around.
Silver

Big Wall climber
Nor Nev
Mar 2, 2011 - 05:52pm PT
All this chatter is why I choose to weigh more than the haul bag at all times.

Pete saw today that we Amerikans are 34% fat and you Canukians are only 24% fat. This is where your hauling really suffers more fast food,beer and TV should be added to your training program.

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Mar 2, 2011 - 06:30pm PT
See? SEE?!

What can I say? Some people get it, and some people don't.
Alex Baker

climber
Portland
Mar 2, 2011 - 06:45pm PT
Adjustable daisy definitely gives 2:1. If there is 10 lbf tension on the daisy, there is 20 lbf tension on you, because it's fixed at 2 points, to you. Of course Pete already said that, in a lot of words. Yeah there's frictional "losses" and stuff that do matter, but you get the point I hope.
Moof

Big Wall climber
Orygun
Mar 2, 2011 - 06:57pm PT
Fish made a decent measure on one of his daisies a couple years back and concluded there are 60-70% friction loss for a net 1.3-1.4:1 mechanical advantage using Ankra buckles for daisies. Not worthless, but well shy of 2:1. In other words for a 200 lb climber to pull themselves up using only the daisy would require ~140 lbs of pulling on the strap.


Edit: Here is the link to the Fish test:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=92228

Conclusion was a 1.3:1 mechanical advantage using adjustable daisies, so 153 lbs of pull to move a 200 lb climber up. The real advantage is more around capturing progress and being able to use two hands (i.e. not needing a free hand to fifi into the daisy).
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Mar 2, 2011 - 07:24pm PT
Ah, I had forgotten about that excellent post. Read what Karl Baba and John Middendorf have to say, and especially Klaus.

I guess if you want a near 2:1 adjustable daisy, use Kate's setup with the Ushbas or a piece of cord and a Mini-Trax.

Adjustable daisies really help me a lot. Their co-efficient of dynamic friction is less than their co-efficient of static friction, which means once you get 'em moving they are easier to keep moving.

However, adjustable daisies are indeed a 2:1 mechanical advantage less the friction in the buckle.
Morgan

Trad climber
East Coast
Mar 2, 2011 - 08:45pm PT
Thanks for posting the other thread Moof. Most interesting. In the third to last post. It sounds like Russ and Pete aren't that far off from each other, just defining things differently in theoretical and practical terms. In the real world, I guess it's somewhere between a 1:1 and 2:1.
Squeezo

Trad climber
Conifer CO
Jul 3, 2011 - 05:51pm PT
mark,
good luck on your adventure this june, , Im thinking on doing my first solo on, tangerine trip in september and know my pig will be heavy and was thinking on useing a 2;1, but have no really experance on anytinbg thing like that, Can you give me a quick run down of what i need and need to do to set it up? pictures? also im headed up the nose with a bussy and she is 130 lbs and think hauling wil be hard for her, so was thinking on setting up a 2;1 for her do you think thats nessary? any help would be great thanks
squeezo
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jul 3, 2011 - 06:40pm PT
for your Archimedean pleasure:
http://www.swe.org/iac/lp/pulley_03.html
Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
Jul 3, 2011 - 06:53pm PT
Squeezo...if you're in a position to set up the pullies, you're ideally situated to haul the bags. ;-)

I hate having two people on the same end of the haul line (although when the bag is going to stick a lot it's still the most efficient way.) It's hard to sync, and when I'm the bottom hauler, I feel like a rat on a wheel. It's so demoralizing to jug away and just keep sinking down.

My favorite alternative, which works best when the bags aren't going to stick and there is room at the anchor for both partners to be side-by-side is to have one person haul 1:1 in the usual fashion and have the other haul 1:1 on the loaded line (i.e. Run a piece of spectra cord from their harness through a high pulley back to an inverted ascender on the loaded line. Use a munter mule to dial in the distance to the jug.)

It's so easy to haul in sync when you're side by side (especially important if both partners' peak impulse is needed to get the bag to move), and having someone haul w/ their full body weigh on the bag-side of the line seems to help break the bag's friction better too. It can also a quick and easy way to help your partner finish a haul when you arrive at the anchor after cleaning a pitch.

We started doing this when I dropped the 3rd pulley on "blast day" (doh!) making 2:1 and 3:1 single-hauler systems impossible for the entire route. Tip for idiots like me...If you're using a pulley system that involves accessory cord, don't let the pulley whiz off the end of the cord. :-(
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