3 to 1 hauling

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Messages 21 - 40 of total 53 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
David Wilson

climber
CA
Feb 28, 2010 - 12:36pm PT
mark, i'd strongly recommend the two haul lines and the split haul in favor of the ratchet. i tried the 2/1 ratchet ( granted, for the first time ) and even with that it felt like a ridiculous number of body movements for very little pig movement. i wished i'd just trailed another line and split the loads. also, just in terms of horsing things around at the belay, i found it disconcerting to have so much weight on one rope / system.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Feb 28, 2010 - 12:45pm PT
David - have you soloed El Cap using two haul lines? I've never seen anyone do that. I want to know if that's what Kevin did on Albatross. When climbing with a partner, two smaller hauls is definitely faster and easier than one bigger/heavier haul. I'm thinking in Mark's case, though, because he is on low angle initially and will probably have to do lots of Far End Hauling, that splitting the load into two would be more trouble than it would be worth.

Coz, I think Mark's going a good way. Not only has he done the other route before, so Grape Race is new for him, Grape Race is seldom climbed, and his might even be the first solo ascent of it. I'm not sure if Mark would climb it in its entirety, as I'm not sure where it officially ends.

The climbing up to Lay Lady and above is more ponderous and painful than it appears. Grape Race has more free climbing, especially at the bottom and top, and I think Mark could get up it faster. Plus, it's just so much cooler.

I'd love to climb Grape Race, I just have to find a way to finish on something I haven't done. Can anyone here free climb? Let's do Grape Race to Genesis. I should ask Shipoopi about Genesis, and the bugger owes us a trip report, too.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 28, 2010 - 12:47pm PT
I have the 2:1 totally figured out and it really sings for me, but I know what you're saying.

Did I mention that I recently went over to the local sports club wall ( I know the owners) and hauled a 300 pound load, quite easily, using a 2:1 system? Granted the wall was vertical and there was virtually no drag but it wasn't that hard, to tell you the truth.

Nanook soloed Grape Race and did a TR of it. That's what gave me the idea.

Lambone, I am totally against grunting harder when there is an easier way that merely takes more time. Don't forget, I'm an old guy, I don't heal as fast and hell, I weigh only 125 pounds!

Ihateplastic

Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
Feb 28, 2010 - 01:45pm PT
Why are you planning on taking 300 pounds of free weights up the Captain?
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 28, 2010 - 02:01pm PT
beacuse I AM MARK HUDON AND I AM BADASS!!!!!!!
David Wilson

climber
CA
Feb 28, 2010 - 02:46pm PT
pete - no idea on what's best for soloing, my comments are just for hauling in general. also, the day i tried that 2/1 was frikin hot and it was like i slowly pumped myself dry, sweating it out with that slow 2/1 system. maybe i have an unfair opinion.
rick d

climber
ol pueblo, az
Feb 28, 2010 - 02:57pm PT
I just have to post this again because it is so damn funny and so damn true.

"beacuse I AM MARK HUDON AND I AM BADASS!!!!!!!"
John Mac

Trad climber
Littleton, CO
Mar 1, 2010 - 02:44pm PT
in reply to Pete's question:

In Andy Kirkpatrick's book Psychovertical there is a section where he starts up Reticent intending to haul wth one load but finds it just too damn hard so goes with two haul lines and two hauls.

Rather than dragging up two haul lines, maybe use a zipline to haul up the haul lines, pulleys, extra biners, etc.

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Mar 1, 2010 - 03:56pm PT
HE IS MARK HUGE-DONG AND HE IS BADASS!!!!!!1111111111111
Mike.

climber
Mar 1, 2010 - 03:59pm PT
I've climbed the Cap numerous times using two separate hauls and two haul lines, including taking enough stuff for 20+ days, using my 7mm tag line as a third temporary haul. One cool thing you can do with two hauls is speed haul one bag. This assumes you're okay with hanging that bag on a cargo hook (or similarly rigged solution). Being on a sparsely-traveled route is key so nobody can come up behind and touch anything. Not sure if Vermin still makes the Cargo Hook--if you decide you want to try or do it, I can loan you my hook, Mark.

I'm with Lambone, but I weigh 170 and can deal with a little labor. To each his own. Wanting the summit badly is way more important that which hauling method one uses. Various solutions will work.
JBennett

Trad climber
Vancouver
Feb 28, 2011 - 09:56pm PT
Curious. Is this not actually an inverted 4:1? It certainly looks like the standard 4:1 configuration (fixed at the "top", moving point at the bottom, and repeated). Perhaps someone could confirm?

Thanks,
Captain...or Skully

climber
The Seas of Stone.
Feb 28, 2011 - 10:04pm PT
Mike. Weren't you doggin' on my cargo hook? Just wonderin', BroMan.
;-)
I take mine.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Feb 28, 2011 - 11:39pm PT
Mark's top photo is a 3:1 Hauling Ratchet, and the bottom photo is a 3:1 Far End Hauler.

Mark, I am curious if you have ever tried the 3:1 Hauling Ratchet? I wonder how it would work? There are times when I have had to work the 2:1 pretty hard.

I really can't ever imagine needing a 3:1 Far End Hauler, for the reasons mentioned above, because you can pull right up on the pig from next to the pig while your are 2:1 Far End Hauling to make it 3:1.

Oh yeah, and in case Russ Walling is reading this:

An adjustable daisy gives you a 2:1 mechanical lifting advantage less the friction in the buckle.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 28, 2011 - 11:55pm PT
Bennett, the second pulley on top changes only the direction of pull and does not add to the mechanical advantage.

Pete, Yes, Lower down on Grape Race I hauled a few times with a 3:1 set up. I used a SMC Double Micro Pulley as my top pulley. It was perfect for me right then and right there. I had a ton of stuff, the rock is pretty low angle and I weigh only 125 pounds. It did take forever though.

I was just playing around with pulleys and figured out the 3:1 Far End Hauler. I can't ever imagine need it but it's always nice to have in you bag of tricks in case something really weird happens.
Morgan

Trad climber
East Coast
Mar 1, 2011 - 10:56am PT
@Pete,

I don't understand how using an adjustable daisy can be 2:1. Doesn't one end have to be fixed to get a 2:1 advantage, like you see in an assisted-hoist rescue situation. How is it different from batmanning (sp?) up a toprope apart from the fact that you can let go? It seems like the way of cleaning with an ascender and a grigri you might get a 2:1 minus the friction of the grigri and a re-direct because the ascender is a fixed point when you are pulling up.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Mar 1, 2011 - 02:47pm PT
Morgan,

Using an adjustable daisy is exactly like batmanning up a toprope.

Imagine being in the gym [if you can, it's been so long for me I can barely remember, shees] and you have fallen off the wall. You are hanging in space on a toprope while your partner holds you. Even if the toprope ran through a pulley on top, instead of a carabiner, there is pretty much no way that your partner can pull down on the rope, and pull you up.

Neither can you grab the tensioned rope upon which you are hanging, above your head, grab it with fingers of steel, and batman up the rope yourself. You just can't do it.

Yet amazingly, miraculously, if you grab the rope that runs from your belayer and his Grigri up to the toprope carabiner, and pull down on it, you can pull yourself up with just your fingers, and rather easily at that. Why? Because with every pound you pull down on the rope, you are unweighting yourself by that same pounds. Assuming there is no friction up top, if you pull down with fifty pounds on the toprope, you are pulling yourself up with that same fifty pounds. The net effect is a hundred pounds of lift - fifty by your own arms, and another fifty by the rope pulling up on you. This is a 2:1 mechanical advantage.

Put your feet against the wall for a bit of extra pull, and that hundred pounds of net force will allow you to pull yourself up the wall while your partner takes in slack through his Grigri.

You know how this works - you've felt it when hanging on a toprope. You know your partner can't pull you up by pulling down, even if there were a pulley, and you also know you can't pull yourself up by batmanning the tensioned rope down to you. But you know you can pull yourself up by pulling down on the other side of the rope.

This is exactly the same situation as you have with an adjustable daisy. If you pull the adjustable daisy with twenty-five pounds of force, you also get pulled up with the same twenty-five pounds. The net effect is 50 pounds of upward force. That's why it's so darn easy to climb your aiders with an adjustable daisy.

If you want it to be really slick, instead of using an adjustable daisy, use a hunk of skinny mountaineering rope and a mini-Trax. Then you'll REALLY get your 2:1 advantage working.

Kate has an awesome setup with three adjustable daisies made from three different coloured hunks of skinny mountaineering rope, each going to its own titanium Ushba ascender thingy. The Ushba has a cam-lock lever and not nasty teeth like a Mini-Trax or the teeth on an adjustable daisy buckle, and if she blows it and takes a hard daisy chain fall, there is an excellent chance of her system catching her, which wouldn't work in the other situation. However you should obviously do every move in the correct order so you never set yourself up for a Factor 2 daisy chain fall.

Also, if you are cleaning a steep pitch, and are using a Grigri as an ascender, you can take the free end of the rope and put it through a pulley on your jug to form a "zed" in the line. The best thing to use in this situation is a little DMM Revolver carabiner, which has the built in roller on the bottom of the crab. This pulley is super compact and is all you need for this system of cleaning. You don't want to use a crab + pulley combo because of two problems - it's an extra step to open the pulley, and it makes the upper part of the zed hang too low.

When you pull down on the free end of the rope, through the DMM Revolver, again you get a 2:1 mechanical advantage less the friction through the Grigri and the friction across the DMM Revolver. Try it and you will see. I use this ratchet when I am cleaning a steep pitch and my feet are dangling in space. If my feet are against the rock, I don't bother with the zed. I have had a partner clean all of El Cap using this zed system, some people really like it.

Cheers,
"Dr. Piton"
Morgan

Trad climber
East Coast
Mar 1, 2011 - 04:20pm PT
Thanks for the super-thorough response, Pete. It sounds like you and I agree that cleaning ultra-steep terrain with a grigri and one jug + dmm revolver is basically a 2:1 situation.

I'm still struggling with adjustable daisy being 2:1. I think of them more like half and half. For example, if you look at a Petzl rescue pulley with a breaking strength of 32 KN, they mean you can have 16 KN on either side of the pulley, 32 KN and Zero, or any sort of weight distribution in between.

I have used Yates adjustables and Kong adjustable fifi. Normally, I'm standing up or scissoring with my legs while pulling on the aider carabiner or grab loop. It seems like I could have a 15-20 pound weight clipped into the aluminum ring on the Yates, and it would just pull through by itself, I wouldn't have to pull on it at all.

Maybe I'm just being stubborn or ignorant, but for me, it's hard to imagine having a 2:1 mechanical advantage without one end or the other being fixed, opposite the side where the force is being applied.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Mar 1, 2011 - 10:44pm PT
The opposite end is fixed - to you.
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Mar 1, 2011 - 11:01pm PT
Using a pulley and jumar hauling system, or a block roll, or a pro trax is 1:1.

but a Yates Adj daisy, (think of the buckle as a pulley) is 2:1?

Hard for me to see that. Pete can you explain the difference?

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Mar 1, 2011 - 11:46pm PT
You guys gotta go back and read my analogy about hanging on the toprope in the climbing gym. You know you can pull yourself up by pulling down on one rope quite easily, but if you pull down on the other rope you can't even move. Why? One way offers mechanical advantage, the other doesn't.

Yes, hauling a pig with a Kong Block-Roll is 1:1, if you are pulling down on the unweighted end of the rope.

Now, go to that same Block-Roll hauling system, but instead of you being up at the station, you are down actually sitting on the pig, attached to the pig by a quick-draw so you and the pig are one. If the pig is empty, you can probably easily haul yourself plus the pig by pulling down on the free end of the rope. If the pig has more stuff in it, you will still be able to haul yourself plus the pig by pulling down on the free end of the rope coming out the opposite side of the Block-Roll.

In the adjustable daisy 2:1 setup, the buckle is analogous to the Block-Roll. Obviously the adjustable daisy buckle has a lot more friction than a Block-Roll [which by comparison is virtually frictionless] but it is still a 2:1 mechanical advantage.

Why?

In the 1:1 hauling using a Block Roll, one end is attached to the pig, and one end is attached to you. You pull down with a hundred pounds, and the rope on the other side plus the pig is pulled up with a hundred pounds.

Now imagine the pig having little arms and legs, and he is capable of hauling himself. [Don't we wish!] So now in this situation, the pig itself pulls down on the free end of haul line, not you. If the piggy pulls down with fifty pounds, at the same time he is also pulled upwards with the same fifty pounds, giving him a net upward pull of a hundred pounds, a 2:1 mechanical advantage. This is analogous to the adjustable daisy.

What's the difference?

In 1:1 hauling, one end of the rope is attached to the load, the other end of the rope gets pulled down on.

In the 2:1 situation [piggy with arms, guy dangling on a toprope in a gym, adjustable daisy] the free end of the "rope" [or adjustable daisy] isn't hanging in space, it is actually attached to the load itself. The load itself is pulling down on the free end. For every pound the load pulls down on the free end, it is also pulling itself up with the same pound.

Certainly it is less intuitive using an adjustable daisy with a friction-y buckle than say a piece of cord and a mini-Trax or one of Kate's Ushba beauties, but it is indeed a 2:1 mechanical advantage.

Maybe there's a physicist out there who can explain it better?




And here's another question for you, one which I have posed before, and could not figure out except by trying it out. Once I figured HOW to make it work best, I then was able to explain WHY. But it is somewhat counter-intuitive as well.

You have a 2:1 hauling ratchet with your zed-cord, and your zed-cord runs through two pulleys. You have a "good" pulley that is big and has nice bearings, and you have a "bad" pulley which is nowhere near as frictionless. To make it work best, do you put the good pulley on top, and the bad pulley on the bottom, or vice versa? And why?

HINT: Try this at home, using one real pulley as your "good" pulley and just a carabiner as your "bad" pulley. It will very quickly - with about one pull - become apparent where you want each pulley!
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