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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 27, 2010 - 12:53pm PT
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Just playing around with pulleys and stuff... I also figured a way to get 3:1 on the Far End Haul system.
3 to 1 Far End Haul
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Feb 27, 2010 - 01:45pm PT
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someone told me there's a girl out there,
with love in her eyes, and flowers in her hair.
thank you mark for the exhuastive research into procedural grunting.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Feb 27, 2010 - 02:34pm PT
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Yep, it is 3:1 and you will have to pull-in 3 ft of rope for every foot the pig is lifted. You will need a very long haul rope, 3 times the length if you want to haul the standard 50m-60m.
Classic Simple Machine theory within physics. You got . . .
-Levers
and
-Incline Planes
Pulleys fall under levers.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Feb 27, 2010 - 02:51pm PT
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Klimmer?
the orange is the haul line in the pic afaict. the other line is a shorter 'pull' line.
why on earth would the haul line need to be 3 times a normal length of a 60m haul line?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Feb 27, 2010 - 02:58pm PT
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It's the same analytical thinking he applies to the WTC conspiracy argument...
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Feb 27, 2010 - 03:11pm PT
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Ok, re-look.
The first image is really all that is needed. The second image threw me off. The blue line is a "short-line" assist for the orange haul-line. So you are pumping it a short distance until the pulleys meet and then extending it again, with I would assume would be a small mass rack of gear, once the orange line takes the load.
But you still have to pull in the blue-line 3 ft for every one foot of lift.
Second image threw me off since the bottom pulley is directly shown connected to the pig. Confussing. I guess the bottom image just shows how to unweight the pig to get it initially off of anchors?
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Feb 27, 2010 - 03:32pm PT
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We used to do the two to one, with a little piggy back rig like you have set up. It worked great. You can waist haul alot. If you belay on a gri gri, the leader can be moving while you haul cuz the throw is so short.
This works in a party of three, as the leader is up and climbing, one guy hauling, the other guy cleans and unsticks the bags.
I remember that was the theory, I don't remember if it ever worked more than "sorta."
The difference is that your fixed point on the little rope is at the top pulley. I bet you could swtich between a 2:1 and 3:1 pretty fast with that system.
Try it out. When the water starts to run out, no reason for the 3:1.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 27, 2010 - 04:03pm PT
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I counter the "you have to pull 3 feet for every 1 foot the bag moves up" with "Jeez, what an idiot I am for trying to use a technique that uses three times less effort"!
I will gladly haul that green cord 450 feet so my little, tiny, weak and old body can haul a 300 pound bag with only 100 pounds of effort. I'll get so tired merely using not all of my body weight to raise the bag! I'll feel so less tired and worn out at the end of the day, it's simply not fair!
Coz, yeah, I thought about that, you don't want to fight the bag too much when it gets stuck, you would be applying a hell of a lot of force right away to it. That's why I figured out the 3:1 Far End Hauling also.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Feb 27, 2010 - 06:25pm PT
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Wow! Look at all of that bold text!
Even for lightweights soloists like Mark, I don't think he will need to use a 3:1 Far End Haul, no matter how heavy his pig, nor how slabby his haul. 3:1 would be very cumbersome and involve a lot of cord pulling, and jugging up and down on your separately hanging lead rope, I would think, but I've never tried it. Never had to.
With a regular Far End Haul, which gives you a 2:1 mechanical advantage, you have two huge advantages being at the bag that you don't get when you are 2:1 hauling from the upper station:
1) You are able to pull up on the pig with one hand, while you are sitting down on the free end of the haul line, on the other end of the zed. This increases your mechanical advantage to 3:1.
2)The reason you have to Far End Haul in the first place, rather than haul from the top station, is because your pig hung up on something while you were solo hauling. You could convert to 3:1, but if your pig's stuck, it's stuck, and you'll just break something or more likely give your haul line a core shot - been there, done that, at least twice.
So your problem that causes you to Far End Haul is friction, and if you are simultaneously pulling up on the pig as you 2:1 "regular" Far End Haul, then you are also pulling the pig away from the wall, thus almost eliminating friction against the rock.
So I think when you combine these two factors - pulling up on the pig to increase mechanical advantage, and pulling outwards on the pig to reduce friction, I don't see any situation where even a lightweight soloist like Mark would not be able to Far End Haul his pigs.
You almost never use a 2:1 haul if you can get away with 1:1, and the same is true for 3:1 compared to 2:1.
I really like Mark's 3:1 Hauling Ratchet, although it will necessarily require 5.5mm no-stretch Spectra zed-cord in order to work. This will certainly be easier to set up than a traditional 3:1, which requires you putting all your pulleys directly onto the haul line. More significantly, you will not have to do all those annoying "resets" you have to do with a regular 3:1 setup.
I look forward to hearing how his 3:1 hauling ratchet works. I will be he won't use the 3:1 Far End Haul, but will use the 2:1 Far End Haul a LOT, especially down low where the wall angle is low.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Feb 27, 2010 - 06:30pm PT
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Just to be a nit picker (nose picker?) you don't quite get 1/3 the effort with the 3/1 ratio due to frictional losses.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 27, 2010 - 06:51pm PT
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you don't quite get 1/3 the effort with the 3/1 ratio due to frictional losses.
And nor do you quite get 1:1 or 2:1 either. Having good pulleys is one way to get closer though.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Feb 27, 2010 - 07:01pm PT
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A good pulley beats the heck out of trying to haul over a biner.
Of course the opposite is true in other situations. When I was a noob I set up a tr using a pulley instead of doubled biners. You definately feel every pound of the climber if he falls or hangs.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Feb 27, 2010 - 07:35pm PT
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Hey Mark,
I'm not making fun of you at all. Yes, I am completely agreeing with you. I just didn't "see" the proper set-up at first.
Work = Force X distance: and this is why we use simple machines . . .
On the end you pull (the input end):
1/3 the force you have to generate to lift the pig X 3/1 the distance you have to pull.
The end that lifts the load (the ouput end):
3/1 the force you pull with to lift the pig X 1/3 the distance lifted than the rope you pull-in.
Work input = Work output. It is easier on the human body to go long distances with small forces, than to go short distances with with big forces. Yes, that is why we use simple machines. In other words we get a mechanical advantage. Once again, I'm agreeing with you.
All simple machines are very efficient. You can tell just how efficient your pulley system is if you do the following calculation:
Your theoretical Mechanical Advantage = 3X
Your actual Mechanical Advantage = ?
To calculate actual MA:
Output Force (Weight of the pig in pounds)/ Input Force (what you actually have to pull with in pounds to lift it) = Actual MA
To calculate efficiency:
Actual MA/ Theoretical MA X 100 = % efficiency
I would guess it will be high approx. 80% or higher depending on the quality of the pulleys used.
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Bulldog
Trad climber
Yosemite, CA
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Feb 27, 2010 - 08:15pm PT
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Yo Mark, do a double haul, get another hauler, another haul line or dynamic line and haul your 100-150 lbs., each. I prefer to space haul. What route are you drooling over.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Feb 27, 2010 - 08:25pm PT
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Kevin - did you do two hauls on Albatross? How's Gretchen and Missy?
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 27, 2010 - 08:50pm PT
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I'm planning on soloing Grape Race to Tribal Rite this June. I'm planning on taking 10 days on the route but having two gallons of water extra so 12 gallons all told. 12 gallons of water weighs almost exactly 100 pounds. I've estimated the other part of the load to be about 150 pounds so 250 pounds when I leave the ground. I'll be hauling up the first three of the Nose and then quite a few on the Salathe Slab. The slab does get steeper and steeper and the bags will get lighter and lighter but I'm just hedging my bets by making sure I have a technique to haul that much weigh up the slabs. I've thought of two hauls but that would also mean two haul ropes, which I'm sure, once i reach mid height, I won't need. Once I get to Tribal Rite, three or four days into the adventure, the bag will be 30 or 40 pounds lighter and the rock will be that much steeper and I'm sure a 2:1 set-up will work fine.
I wasn't meaning my post to you Klimmer, it's just that the "pull 3, get 1" is the standard argument against it when I tell someone about 2:1 or 3:1 hauling.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Feb 27, 2010 - 10:51pm PT
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klimmer you'd need 3x the rope if the line was fixed at the pig, then traveled up to the anchor thru a pulley then back down to the pig thru another pulley and then back up to the anchor, thru one last pulley. you pull the rope on the windward side of the third pulley.
you'd pull up three questions and only get one answer.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Feb 28, 2010 - 12:22am PT
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Mark
WE WANT PICTURES!!!!!!!
please
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Feb 28, 2010 - 01:21am PT
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I've done some 3:1s with big pigs before. Personally I'd rather grunt a lil harder and spend 1/3rd the time hauling and more time chillin.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 28, 2010 - 12:26pm PT
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Space, yeah, well, ain't that a bit hard? I'm not that good at aid climbing. Maybe after I get my feet under me, so to speak. I've done the right side of the Tower, twice actually. Once on an attempt on the WOEML and again when I finally did it.
That crack on Grape Race certainly looks free climbable, doesn't it?
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