Sobriety (off topic or not)?


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Social climber
Southern Arizona
Jan 17, 2019 - 07:30am PT
Aaron Tritz: I may be incorrect [CG Jung] was an original founder of AA, but I do believe he contributed to AA in the early beginnings, . . .

I had never heard this before, but there appears to be some truth in the claim, although in a peripheral and advisory role. Bill W. said he had been informed by Jung’s advice to an alcoholic Jung had treated many years previously. It was Bill Wilson’s view that Jung had contributed in a major way to the need for a “religious conversion” in AA methodology. I think that Jung had said he had no direct contact with the founders of AA.

As for dream interpretations, Jung’s the guy to read. If you read his academic writings, you can get a gist of what he’s referring to analytically. If you read his more poetic writings on the subject of the influence of the unconsciousness (individual and collective), you’ll need more than a scientific view of the world and being.

Thanks for the insight. I have ex-alcoholics in my extended family of in-laws. They are almost militant, but with a lot of humor (if that makes any sense).

Be well, and good luck.

Trad climber
Jan 17, 2019 - 04:14pm PT
How long have you been sober?
I got sober August 26th of 1996, so 22 years and change since my last drink.

I didn't have any drunk dreams for several months. Can't remember when the first one came - probably at some point in my first year. I've had one or two a year, I'd say. They often have me having been saying I was sober the whole time and coming to a realization that was in fact not true and I had been drinking all along(on occasion).

It's always a relief, waking up and knowing it was just a dream.


Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jan 21, 2019 - 03:56pm PT
I have had a few drunk dreams. sometimes in the dream I am just having a few beers because that doesn't really count, then I realize that I have actually been having a lot of a few beers every day and that it probably does count.... then I wake up and am like holy sh#t that was freaky but good thing it was just a dream... just read this on TGR
Mike Honcho

Trad climber
Glenwood Springs, CO
Jan 21, 2019 - 04:32pm PT
Once in awhile, like not very often but I'll have the "F*#KBALLS I drank last night and threw away everybody and everything!!!!!" but then wake up, reach over and feel the wife and 2 Pugs sleeping soundly. Like heaven.

Similar to the "I'm back in the US Army bootcamp dream/nightmare'..


Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jan 21, 2019 - 06:10pm PT
I would like to remind folks that getting off the booze/drugs, while an essential first step, and one we must guard against EVER returning to, forever, is really the start of it all. Most of us had our version of an alcoholic personality - which comes in many flavors - that was causing much of the havoc and torment in the first place. Addressing this is a life's work, done one day at a time. At some point, and it took me a good long while, you'll come to actually thank your seemingly bad luck at being an alcoholic because it's starts a process that, without the torment, you'd likely never have started the recovery process, and would never have felt yourself transforming in ways that I, for one, would have thought impossible. And I mean totally impossible.

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 21, 2019 - 06:57pm PT
Interesting... fortunately I've been blessed and never had a problem with booze or drugs but I still have drunk/drug dreams on occasion. I remember one vividly of taking lsd.... freaked me out... woke up feeling totally bizarre. And I've never taken it for real.

Trad climber
Jan 28, 2019 - 08:26am PT
I just got an email alert from the GoFundMe page for Brandon. Since some here may not see it, I will quote:
Brandon likes making things difficult for himself and doesn’t listen when I just gave him the opportunity of a lifetime to change his life - he’s done nothing but show us all how much of a child he can be.

Sad, he stands no chance as he promised me he’ll do 6 months sober living after his 30 days - but wants to return immediately home because “he figured it all out”

He’s so sick, his behavior so childish.

My hope is fading fast - he’s going to lose everything - including his life.

Only reason to donate is so I can give to someone to start over. Otherwise getting ready to shut this down and give up on him - he’s earned it
Help spread the word!

I'm probably misreading the intent, when Aaron posted that "Only reason to donate is so I can give to someone to start over.," but I thought he might be considering giving donated monies to someone/thing besides what he originally detailed. I just want to make sure I am wrong.... Because I did NOT donate my small but not small to me amount to be used at the discretion of the administrator of that page.

So "Brandon has figured it out." Who among us who's been in an AA meeting hasn't seen that attitude out of any number of newly sober people? It should be having ZERO impact on the GoFundMe page. There should be NO STRINGS ATTACHED when a person gives a gift. Anyone with any sense of what alcoholism is knew/knows that there are no guarantees. And just because Aaron has his opinion, that's just what it is. The opinion of a first year in sobriety person.

Will Brandon slip within days upon leaving the center? May be. May be not. I do agree that the 6 month sober house would be a SMART way to proceed, and I hope Aaron will show Brandon this comment, along with all others made in this thread and the related ones.

So - Brandon - PLEASE reconsider your exit strategy. Six months in a god-forsaken cold Minnesota in a sober house is a much better option than a return to the past. The past will still be there in six months, and I dare say it will be there for the rest of your life. I challenge you to stay the course with the sober house. Please take me up on that challenge! Chalkbag of your choice from my offerings once you get through with that(I know, it's not a high value carrot, but when I think of how I use the money earned on a sale of one, it's often for food, gas to get to the next town on my travels and/or dog foods for Lucas. It's not "nothing" for me to give one away.

Trad climber
Jan 28, 2019 - 08:40am PT
As for my own sober living - I had a fake scare the other day on something that will remain untold, and have to say I believe I MAY be making progress with my emotions.

At first I went to my usual place, which is not a good head space to be in. But almost immediately I stopped the thoughts and said the mantra I learned from an old sponsor years ago: "Do I have what I need right now?"

For sure I didn't deal with my "scare" in the best of ways. I procrasinated on facing it, thus allowing me to believe something bad was about to go down for the two days it took me to face the fear and find out that it was not as I expected.

Instead of having a big relief that I had tortured myself for naught, I was able to remind myself that I stayed focused on the present and didn't burn down my emotional battery like I have in the past. And I got a hint of the next step, which is to meet my challenges when they occur instead of hiding from them and fearing for the worst. I'm sure that will take plenty more opportunities to do, because even the thought of that gets me thinking of scurrying to my inner safe cave.

I also didn't drink.... but as I have said so many times - I'm very, very lucky in that I am one of those for whom "to drink" has been lifted. That doesn't mean I WON'T drink some day. I know that could happen at any time. But on this side of that possibility, I know just how fortunate I am to not have drink signals when the road gets bumpy.

John M

Jan 29, 2019 - 04:04am PT
Hey Aaron.. Thanks for what you have done for Brandon. I'm sorry that it has been such a challenge. A lot of us have been there, so we know what it can be like. Hopefully Brandon continues to seek the help that he needs to heal himself and his life.

As for Deleting your account. It depends on what you mean. There are at least 4 ways to deal with the Taco Stand.

1. If you want total annihilation, which means all of your posts will be deleted and your account erased, then you use the contact info at the bottom of the page. It takes time as the owners of the forum are outdoor enthusiast like most of us and so aren't always around. Sometimes as much as 2 weeks. I would counsel you to think about that because it sort of leaves a hole in the forum where conversations look strange as it appears people aren't talking to anyone. But people do do it and if that is what you want, then it can and will happen. It just takes time. This process is not reversible. You would need to create an entirely new account with a new email if you want to respond to anything that Brandon may say in the future. What you do is go to the bottom of the page and find the contact like for this forum. click that and tell them that you want to be completely removed. They may ask you why, so it helps if you explain.

2. If you don't mind your stuff staying up, but want to not have access to your account so that you won't be tempted to waste time here, then contact the admin and ask them to deactivate your account. You won't have access to posting, but what you have posted so far will not be deleted. This is reversible, though that too takes time.

3. If all that you want is for what you have posted to be gone, then You have 10 days to delete what you have posted. Below each post you make is an edit button. Click on that. Your post will come up and you can either edit it, or below the box of your post is a button to delete your post. Just click that if you want it will be completely gone.

4. If you don't want to wait for the admin, and you don't care if your posts stay up, but you want to block yourself from access, then you change your password to something that you won't be able to remember. What you do is write a long mixed up password. Something that you couldn't remember unless you had it written down or had a photographic memory. Change the password on the forum and then tear up the paper. This is reversible by talking to the admin and telling them that you forgot your password. Then sign out of your account and you won't be able to log back in. The way that you accomplish this is to go to the top of the page and in the right hand corner is "my settings" click on that and you can change your password. Once done there, then click on sign out.

I hope that helps and Best wishes!

SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, Bozeman, the ocean, or ?
Jan 29, 2019 - 05:05am PT
I’m not feeling very confident about Aaron’s “rest assured” ... “savings account” etc.
I donated for BRANDON!

This leaves me with a very sour taste about future requests for go fund me.

I just don’t know what’s really going on. Is this whole thing a scam?

Feeling like I might have been used,


Gnome Ofthe Diabase

Out Of Bed
Jan 29, 2019 - 06:06am PT
Delete or leave what has been posted for continuity.
The read will be severely changed if you take your posts away.

-The thing is that you can do whatever you feel is right for your situation.

by deleting your account you won't have built anything or have to worry about it being easily found & used against you in some way.
(my wife says everything is can be found.?)

I think what you attempted was heroic -period-
& the attempt is a thing to be proud of.
Being there, trying to help Brandon; was worth a try.

[{Deleted The Writing. It was from the heart, I'm past 50 now, certainly given wine by the time I was 7yrs old. What I wrote was directed at & for the 3 people who needed to read it. The thoughts came from my vast experience with substance use, -abuse- failed recovery & -sobriety. It was not meant to be taken as gospel. It was not for the non-sympathetic}] . ]

Aaron, you are a stand-up guy, A very rare mix, one who is welcome here. It is no more Brandon's place than it is your place. That no BJ BS or any of the other trolls had shjt here till now, says a lot about your valiant attempt. (Sad to say - They were overdue)
I hope good things for you.

Trad climber
Jan 29, 2019 - 06:50am PT
This all makes complete sense to me, and I do apologize if, after reading the update where Aaron posted monies would go to "someone else," I sounded an alarm. I was concerned that the fee for Brandon's rehab might not be paid, and in my not always rational mind imagined there might be some other client at the rehab that would be funded, instead of monies going to B's wife as was originally stated. I had no problem assuming Aaron would be reimbursed for the costs he incurred, as of course he should be.

I hope that down the road, all parties will be able to say this all worked out just fine, despite the bumpy ride.

I strongly encourage Aaron to leave his posts in place. Yes, Brandon will likely read them, and that is as it should be. How Brandon feels about what he reads is none of our business.

Thank you, Aaron, for taking the time to clarify this.

I will be donating again today. Sure, I hope Brandon does the sober house, but it seems to me that B's wife can use any funds disbursed to her as well. If B does the sober house, I would likely donate as I can to continue the 1/2 to B and 1/2 to B's wife during this transition.
Jim Clipper

Jan 29, 2019 - 06:53am PT
Aaron, I think I can speak for a number of people here, although I've met very, very few. You are a stand up guy, working to do the right thing.

For what it's worth, I don't think anyone will ever, or was ever trolling you. Ask some questions about rapping El Cap, and you might be entertained. That or you may develop a thicker skin.

Seriously, some folks here are very generous with their time, and even tyeir material resources. Seems pretty certain you aren't a Nigerian prince. If interested, search the forum for "fundraiser".

Maybe, some of the folks here have cleaned up, but underneath, they'really still dirty hippies, dreaming about living in the dirt of a ditch.

Give your kids a hug, tell them ski fastrip and take chances.
SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, Bozeman, the ocean, or ?
Jan 29, 2019 - 07:11am PT
Thank you, Aaron, for taking the time to clarify this.

Thank you Aaron... I’m feeling better now. I know Happie personally and trust she has a greater understanding of everything that is happening than I do.
When dealing over the net with folks I don’t know, and knowing there have been situations where there have been scams it raises red flags. Also some posts you did on FB on Brandon’s page raised some red flags for me.

Thank you for the clarifications and I do appreciate all you’re doing. Thank you for indulging an inaccurate skeptic! No need for receipts or refunds. I just want to see Brandon get well.

All the best,

Mike Honcho

Trad climber
Glenwood Springs, CO
Jan 29, 2019 - 07:20am PT
A short "small town sobriety story".

So! My wife and I bought a crazy house on the Western Slope of Colorado, Glenwood Springs about 18 months ago. Far away from Boulder/Eldo/Golden where we'd been for many years. There's tons of meetings in Boulder and Golden and nearly a constant social stimulus to keep an alcoholic occupied. The old AA saying goes something like "you only need 2 alcoholics and a resentment to start a new group", well the Front Range has a shitload of that.

Here on the Western Slope there's sooooo many fewer meetings weekly and the distances can be disconcerting as the population is tiny comparatively. It's been really hard for me to stay spiritually fit and focused, I've been really good, progress not perfection, but not fully able to get 90 days and 6 months to click together like I did back in Boulder..

However, in the last 6-8 months a new homegroup was started right in my town, walking distance from my house that I now chair as my service position. As well, a brand new beginners meeting has blossomed over the last 2 months that's also quite close to my house. It started with 4 people, 4 people(none beginners except sort of me), then 5 people, then 7 people, 11 people. This is when I ordered a pile of chips just in case any newcomers actually ever showed. But the meeting's blossomed and we gave away 3 24hr chips last week, lots of tears and laughs. Living in a town of less than 5,000 people can seem like a curse if you let it, but it's really blossomed for me, which is the most important thing right? ME? Just kidding.

Keep fighting the good fight folks and please keep posting here, it's like a virtual meeting?. Live hard, pray harder!

John M

Jan 29, 2019 - 10:49am PT
Thats a great story Caylor. Thanks for sharing that!

Aaron.. I don't know what to advise you. As you have experienced, there are some really good people here, but its can also be fairly wild and woolly. The political threads are enter at your own risk. Based on only a 2 hour assessment, I would say that it could be highly risky for you to join the forum as you are still fairly volatile yourself and you are in a situation where you are trying to get your kids back. You have to think of them first. This forum will likely be here for some time. You can always come back with a different ID after things get a bit more stable for you.

If you decide to stay, then understand that this place is like the Hotel California. Youse get beat into the place and if you decide to leave youse get beat out of the place. You haven't been beat in yet, so you can still leave easy peasy, but once beat in, well, you might take a beating if you aren't careful how you leave. I don't mean a physical beating.

An example. The internet is the place where people can let their baser nature rule. That means that the people with a mean streak can be as mean as they want. About the only thing that can happen to them is that they get banned. They might lose a few friends, but the worst of them don't have friends, so they let it rip. We have had people stalked. We have had people threaten physical violence up to including threatening to shoot someone. The cops were called on that one and on one of the stalkers. so it gets nasty. And the craziest part is people that we have climbed with, partied with, surfed with that we think are good people can get on the internet and just go off. We have had more then a few of those too. Some people here like it wilder and looser. They don't want anyone banned. Others would rather not have political threads and other don't like the people who just want to stir up ugliness. I am one of those.

So the history of the forum is that we used to have all out verbal wars about what we called Trolls. Trolls to some means people who like to cause mischief. It can be fun. But it can also be meaner then a rattlesnake and down right ugly. We have had all kinds. In the beginner the worst trolls ran rampant. These were people who just wanted to be mean. There were all kinds of arguments about that and the constant arguing and bicker drove some good people away. In our arguing the forum as a whole decided to get rid of a few trolls. There were still those around who didn't want anyone banned, but they were the minority. So as a group we got rid of some people. Then things morphed and individually we could report trollish people. The mods decide who goes and who stays. Its not always clear about what they base their decisions on and a few people got banned who are highly respected in the climbing world. Thats caused a sore spot or two.

Recently I got someone banned. No one here argues that they didn't bring anything but meanness to the forum, but they are tired of people getting banned and worried that other good people can be narced out. So a thread was started where I was called a Quisling. Quilting was a real guy in ww2 who collaborated with the nazi's. So it means a narc and a traitor. I disagree with the idea that I am a traitor to the forum because i don't see the owner as the enemy. He is one of the tribe. Someone who like the wild and woolly outdoors, but wants a campfire to hang around. The problem is that online its not exactly like a campfire. In person you know who you are dealign with and you can defend yourself . Online its a lot harder. So someone has to enforce the peace. Some people don;t like that.

On that thread calling me a Quisling, I stated my case and in the past if I was attacked, I got a lot of support because the people who wanted a place for all were the majority. This time there was not a lot of support, while at the same time there wasn't a lot of hate. But it was the majority. The forum is going through a period where the good people have slowed down their posting, or left, or in some cases died. We have lost a number of outstanding people who we all still miss. Jeff Lowe, John Bachar, Scott Cosgrove, Jim Bridewell and many others. These people are climbing legends and they all posted here at different times. There is so much climbing history here is mind boggling. There are also some of the original base jumpers and there have been some of the original speed skiers and other crazies. I say that affectionately. There is a story on this forum from the guy who flew the first paraglider over the Sierra Nevada. Its hairball.

But the trolls are constant and seem to be growing. The good people seem to be less and less. The stories have been fewer. There are still good people here. Your proof is how much money was raised in a short time by people many of who never met Brandon. We just heard his stories and liked that he tried to be a good guy and so wanted to support him. We now know a bit more about how far down the rabbit hole he is, but many of us have also been there. My own history is a life time of mental health problems, ( depression and being suicidal ), a history of drug and alcohol abuse, and a lot of physical health problems. One of my passions is the outdoors. I skied, climbed a little, body surfed a lot, ran long distances in the mountains and did long distance swims. These were the things that kept me sane. I joined the forum during a period when my physical health was so bad that I couldn't get out like I wanted to. The forum was a kind of refuge/ connection to the outdoors. So I hung out here a lot. too much probably. My physical health is still poor, but my mental health is getting better. I survived the Taco stand. Thats what we call this place. In baring my soul on this forum I made friends but I also came to the attention of a few creeps. They got my email address and my phone number and sent me all kinds of ugly messages and a few threats. so you have to be prepared mentally for those kinds of things.

Since the thread about me being a Quisling, I have decided to no longer report anyone unless they are singling out someone who needs help and it is an ongoing thing. The consensus on the forum seems to be to allow whatever to go on. If that happens, then this place won't be as friendly as its been. The trolls will rule.

So long story short. I don't know what to tell you. I'm easing off the place. The main thing is to remember that you have your kids to think about. Pop in occasionally and share a tale or two about skiing. We love that kind of thing. But always remember your kids and be careful to not let this place get to you. That can be really difficult to do. So what is more important to you? Your kids or swapping stories? I would say leave your stuff up. I do believe that the only way Brandon really gets well is to face his stuff, and his treatment of you and his wife is part of that. So leaving it up could do good, but at the same time make things difficult for you. Its your call.

Cheers.. John the do gooder. ;-)

Edit: Internet forum history. Too much moderation and a forum becomes stale. too little moderation and a forum dies. There was a climbers forum with no moderation. It died within a year. rumor has it a threatened lawsuit closed it down. I don't know the real reason. Its all about balance. Thats a tricky and difficult thing to achieve.
John M

Jan 29, 2019 - 09:38pm PT
Hey Aaron. Maybe ease up on the rhetoric. Brandon doesn't need this right now. I wrote a post on this thread. This is a support thread. Brandon is in a fragile state of mind right now and doesn't need anyone coming at him head on. This is why the rehab center asked you to not have contact with him. I do appreciate that you care about your friend, but could you possibly dial it back a bit and maybe consider deleting your last post.


The Granite State.
Jan 29, 2019 - 09:39pm PT
Aaron, grow up. I’ve already told why on the other page.

And slander? Really?

I didn’t read it all yet, but in what I saw, your facts are a little screwy bud. And like I told you earlier tonight, you have absolutely no idea why I left.

So this is why you told me to do damage control on FB just now? Because you’re butthurt that I didn’t want to stay there in sober living and want to talk sh#t about me here?

You know less about me than most of the people on this thread.

I’m sorry for Aarons behavior, as you can tell he has a short temper and a bit of a superiority complex.

If you want to continue discussing this topic, please take it to the other thread. There’s a link acouple of posts above this one.
John M

Jan 29, 2019 - 09:46pm PT
Hey Brandon. Maybe realize that this whole situation kind of blew some of Aaron's circuits. He took some big risks for you jeopardizing his own situation, so maybe you could understand if he is a bit extreme in his feelings. If you read my email to you, then perhaps you could see that same kind of reaction in yourself. Its pretty common from people who are recovering from alcohol abuse. Aaron is doing the best he can for you. Remember that he is less then one year sober. Just as you are doing the best you can to heal your life, so maybe cut each other some slack.

I'm hoping that y'all will give it a bit of a rest, get some sleep and then try to figure this out.

Social climber
Jan 29, 2019 - 10:11pm PT
Whatta sh*it show

Addict's trail of lies......
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