Venezuela melting down fast

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survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jan 29, 2010 - 01:29pm PT
NOTE: This was President James Monroe’s seventh address to Congress. It is significant in that it set forth a policy that the United States would no longer tolerate European colonization of the Americas. The apparent misspellings of the words St. Petersburg, defense, and judgment (among others) reflect the spellings in accordance to the period in which they were written.

December 2, 1823

At the proposal of the Russian Imperial Government, made through the minister of the Emperor residing here, a full power and instructions have been transmitted to the Minister of the United States at St. Petersburgh to arrange, by amicable negotiation, the respective rights and interests of the two nations on the northwest coast of this continent. A similar proposal has been made by His Imperial Majesty to the Government of Great Britain, which has likewise been acceded to. The Government of the United States has been desirous, by this friendly proceeding, of manifesting the great value which they have invariably attached to the friendship of the Emperor, and their solicitude to cultivate the best understanding with his Government. In the discussions to which this interest has given rise, and in the arrangements by which they may terminate the occasion has been judged proper for asserting, as a principle in which the rights and interests of the United States are involved, that the American continents, by the free and independent condition which they have assumed and maintain, are henceforth not to be considered as subjects for future colonization by any European powers....

It was stated at the commencement of the last session that a great effort was then making in Spain and Portugal, to improve the condition of the people of those countries, and that it appeared to be conducted with extraordinary moderation. It need scarcely be remarked, that the result has been, so far, very different from what was then anticipated. Of events in that quarter of the globe, with which we have so much intercourse, and from which we derive our origin, we have always been anxious and interested spectators. The citizens of the United States cherish sentiments the most friendly, in favor of the liberty and happiness of their fellow men on that side of the Atlantic. In the wars of the European powers, in matters relating to themselves, we have never taken any part, nor does it comport with our policy to do so. It is only when our rights are invaded, or seriously menaced, that we resent injuries, or make preparation for our defence. With the movements in this hemisphere, we are, of necessity, more immediately connected, and by causes which must be obvious to all enlightened and impartial observers. The political system of the allied powers is essentially different, in this respect, from that of America. This difference proceeds from that which exists in their respective governments. And to the defence of our own, which has been achieved by the loss of so much blood and treasure, and matured by the wisdom of their most enlightened citizens, and under which we have enjoyed unexampled felicity, this whole nation is devoted. We owe it, therefore, to candor, and to the amicable relations existing between the United States and those powers, to declare, that we should consider any attempt on their part to extend their system to any portion of this hemisphere, as dangerous to our peace and safety. With the existing colonies or dependencies of any European power we have not interfered, and shall not interfere. But with the governments who have declared their independence, and maintained it, and whose independence we have, on great consideration, and on just principles, acknowledged, we could not view any interposition for the purpose of oppressing them, or controlling, in any other manner, their destiny, by any European power in any other light than as the manifestation of an unfriendly disposition towards the United States. In the war between those new governments and Spain we declared our neutrality at the time of their recognition, and to this we have adhered, and shall continue to adhere, provided no change shall occur, which, in the judgement of the competent authorities of this government, shall make a corresponding change, on the part of the United States, indispensable to their security.

The late events in Spain and Portugal, shew that Europe is still unsettled. Of this important fact, no stronger proof can be adduced than that the allied powers should have thought it proper, on any principle satisfactory to themselves, to have interposed, by force, in the internal concerns of Spain. To what extent such interposition may be carried, on the same principle, is a question, to which all independent powers, whose governments differ from theirs, are interested; even those most remote, and surely none more so than the United States. Our policy, in regard to Europe, which was adopted at an early stage of the wars which have so long agitated that quarter of the globe, nevertheless remains the same, which is, not to interfere in the internal concerns of any of its powers; to consider the government de facto as the legitimate government for us; to cultivate friendly relations with it, and to preserve those relations by a frank, firm, and manly policy; meeting, in all instances, the just claims of every power; submitting to injuries from none. But, in regard to these continents, circumstances are eminently and conspicuously different. It is impossible that the allied powers should extend their political system to any portion of either continent, without endangering our peace and happiness: nor can any one believe that our Southern Brethren, if left to themselves, would adopt it of their own accord. It is equally impossible, therefore, that we should behold such interposition, in any form, with indifference. If we look to the comparative strength and resources of Spain and those new governments, and their distance from each other, it must be obvious that she can never subdue them. It is still the true policy of the United States to leave the parties to themselves, in the hope that other powers will pursue the same course.

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 29, 2010 - 02:09pm PT
Thanks, Largo, for putting these people's plight in front of us.

What I find interesting is the almost total disregard of this story in the American and international MSM. I do a lot of shortwave listening, although the variety and richness of international broadcasting isn't what it used to be, it's still remarkable how little any English-language broadcasts from anywhere except Cuba mention Chavez. I guess our editors think we're capable of absorbing news of only one Latin American country at a time (e.g. Haiti). When Chavez blamed the Haitian earthquake on the American military, virtually no one made much of the story.

One could only imagine the MSM coverage of this kind of corruption and misgovernment from a right-wing regime.

John
dirtbag

climber
Jan 29, 2010 - 02:15pm PT
dirtbag,

You haven't been reading my postings in "C of C" about Iranians visiting Ven and Chavez's visits to Tehran, foreign involvement gets Monroe Doctrine. hey, we could use the oil.


The evil one

Chicken sh#t stuff that's not a monroe doctrine type action. Try again, warmonger.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jan 29, 2010 - 02:19pm PT
Funny you mention that JElezarian, remember all the mumbo-jumbo over Honduras? Our State Dept was really involved in condemning the 'right wing' leaders for the supposed 'coup'.

It's seems the Hondurans dodged a bullet thanks to the actions taken by Micheletti, the courts, and Zelaya's own party!!!



A couple days ago I heard that Chavez shut down one of the TV stations that is critical of him. Typical Chavez...
franky

climber
Davis, CA
Jan 29, 2010 - 02:33pm PT
http://www.cfr.org/publication/12089/venezuelas_oilbased_economy.html
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2010 - 02:35pm PT
Pure capitalism is a dangerous as pure socialism. You folks with your fears need to get over it.


I agree with this statement. Something in between is probably called for. The problem is that you have fundamantalists that insist that only a pure version of either will ever work. Venezuela and the US are examples of what happens with "pure" versions of both.

However, a pure democratic system is probably our best bet to avoid many of the problems now facing Venezuela, which has been governed for the last eleven years by what amounts to little more than a knock-off Castro. The difference is that Chavez is a military guy posturing as a politician, whereas Castro was an lawyer posing as a soldier. Both Cuba and Venezuela are paying dearly for their charades.

JL
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 29, 2010 - 04:06pm PT
And what has our country had for leaders recently? A poser posing as a poser, and now a puppet posing as a people's man?

Yep, but we haven't had a genocidal maniac since Andrew Jackson.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2010 - 05:02pm PT
Dingus wrote: "Well I hope the Chavistas don't come looking for Caracas Gringo nor his family...."

The Chavistas are all over Caracas Gringo and many others but aparently Word Press is pretty unhackable/untraceable. I think Caracas Gringo used to work in intel. Another volatile and interesting source of Ven. info is: Devilsexcrement.wordpress.com

JL

According to Caracas Gringo, his IT warefare outfit is mainly Cubans, but I suspect it's rally just computer savy Ven. kids.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 29, 2010 - 05:17pm PT
There was a twitter site a few months back with hundreds of photos from the massive anti Chavista demonstrations.

When I did a Google search to try to find them cached or linked most of the sites on the first page had virus bombs and had been identified as corrupted sites.

He evidently has a fairly sophisticated IT warfare group set up to keep a lid on things.

Probably one of the key points of cooperation with Iran.

luggi

Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
Jan 29, 2010 - 06:16pm PT
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100128/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_venezuela_media
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 29, 2010 - 07:53pm PT
Fattrad: we already have troops in Columbia thanks to your buddy Bush (this was a good investment) and we are still turning the screws abiet (thanks for that work Largo!) gently. You should feel joy that the President didn't throw away all that labor and continues the policy? Do you need a link?

ps, NPR is a CIA mouthpiece, and to those who do not know, we often get more oil from Venezuela than any middle eastern country although currently they are 5th behind Saudi Arabia and Nigeria for the last few months (there's a couple of stable country's...NOT). Canada is #1, Mexico #2 of course, Nigeria is usally behind Venzuela.

Tonight I will drink a toast to the brave men who work for our country in shitholes such as these, so that my country men can continue to drive large SUVs and we can continue to avoid the political unpleasantry of having, or worrying about, an energy policy.

GENTLEMEN! A TOAST!

God bless America and our oil wells these foreigners are sitting on!




Yeeee Haw!!!!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jan 29, 2010 - 08:17pm PT
Uh, we have tons of our own oil to 'exploit', taking someone else's is o.k.?

And where the f*#k is all that Iraqi oil??? I know China is taking some.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jan 30, 2010 - 03:03pm PT
The US is no more a capitalist country than Venezuela is a socialist country. Both have the ascribed tendencies, but a tendency is far from reality. And the reality is that both have mixed economies. The US has a liberal democratic federal republican government, with a relatively weak president (yup, really), and in most ways a highly developed economy. Venezuela isn't so far along, and suffers from an overly-strong office of president, whatever the party - as do many countries in Latin America and elsewhere. It also is burdened with significant social problems, the curse/blessing of oil, an underdeveloped economy, and lack of a real balance of powers - although on paper its constitution probably isn't much different from that of the U.S. Venezuela also has the burden of US imperial meddling, usually for economic reasons - starting with the Monroe Doctrine.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jan 30, 2010 - 03:27pm PT
The Canadian and US economies are already inextricably intertwined, something that goes back nearly a century. Yes, we're the #1 exporter of oil and natural gas to the US, and yes, many of the companies are multinationals based in the US. In particular those developing the tar sands in northern Alberta.

Notwithstanding, there are profound cultural, social, and economic differences between Canada and the elephant to the south, and our countries don't always have the same interests. Being an ally doesn't mean being a footstool.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jan 30, 2010 - 03:28pm PT
Anders makes a good point. Our system is resilient enough to handle incompetents like Bush/Obama. The Venezuelan model, not so much so. Much more fragile.
bmacd

Trad climber
Beautiful British Columbia
Jan 30, 2010 - 04:27pm PT
http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/22/oil-estimates-in-venezuela-doubled/

January 22, 2010, 2:15 pm

Oil Estimates in Venezuela Doubled - 513 billion barrels of heavy oil

Venezuela has long been known to hold some of the world’s biggest deposits of oil sands — thick bituminous resources that require substantial investments and refining methods to develop.

In a new assessment (PDF), government geologists with the United States Geological Survey have provided a dramatic new estimate of how much oil is “technically recoverable” from these oil sands, in an area known as the Orinoco oil belt: 513 billion barrels of heavy oil.

The tally far exceeds previous estimates of around 235 billion barrels, and it represents “the largest accumulation ever assessed” by the U.S.G.S.

The Orinoco is a critical component of Venezuela’s claim to holding the world’s biggest oil reserves, ahead of Saudi Arabia’s 264 billion barrels. But while most of the oil found in the Middle East can be extracted relatively easily through traditional production methods, the Orinoco’s oil sands are tougher to produce.

Saudi officials, meanwhile, claim that their potential resource base far exceeds their official reserves.

Venezuela’s government has outlined grand plans to bring foreign companies, including Chinese and Indian firms, to invest in the region, but it has also been mired in contract disputes with former American partners.

Petroleos de Venezuela, the country’s state-owned company, has estimated that the Orinoco belt held a total resource base of 1.3 trillion barrels of oil, but said only a fraction of that could be produced economically.
reddirt

climber
Jan 30, 2010 - 04:41pm PT
so is it now a good or bad thing to fill up at Citgo stations?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jan 30, 2010 - 07:09pm PT
It is an ignorance and perhaps an arrogance that the rest of the world doesn't seem to be afflicted with.


Maybe you should take your family to Zimbabwe, Bangladesh, or Venezuela then, huh??? Good times!
bmacd

Trad climber
Beautiful British Columbia
Jan 30, 2010 - 07:37pm PT
Think about it, the USGS has just this past week anounced that Venezuela economically recoverable oil reserves are greater than that of Saudia Arabia.

Meanwhile Chavez is headed into a full on civil meltdown.

Interesting times ahead, as usual ....

Plenty of reasons for CIA support of a resistance movement in Venezuela
WandaFuca

Social climber
From the gettin place
Jan 30, 2010 - 07:38pm PT
Maybe you should take your family to Zimbabwe, Bangladesh, or Venezuela then, huh??? Good times!

You're a big fan of free markets, why don't you head on over to Somalia?

Fun stuff!!!111
Messages 21 - 40 of total 119 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
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