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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 6, 2010 - 04:41pm PT
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This article appeared in Mountain #83, January/February, 1982. (The issue also contained Largo’s “The Only Blasphemy”, Randy Vogel’s detailed piece on Joshua Tree, Rakoncaj’s report on Nanda Devi, North Face, among others.) Donnelly’s piece is a really interesting essay and I think some here on ST will find it relevant. Donnelly is a PhD and Director of the Centre for Sport Policy Studies, U of Toronto, last I checked. He also authored a considerable amount of work after this particular piece as well. Most notably, Inside Sports, along with Jay Coakley.
The question Donnelly addresses here stems from the fourth of four commonly held fallacies, the first three having been treated in essays like this one but in the prior issues of Ken Wilson’s magazine. Essentially he eviscerates the platitudinous assumption that the fellowship of the rope somehow is also “real friendship” rather than situational effectiveness of a sort or even worse, mere placebo to real living. Anyway, have at it, it’s a good read. Keep in mind it the fourth part of a larger essay, spread across apparently 4 Mountain issues.
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Deemed Useless
Social climber
Ca.
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I read some of it, not all. That said...good find ol' chap, I'll be back to finish it later.
Isn't it like a "Band of Brothers" type thing? Sometimes you get into some very unusual type situations that are apart from modern society. Though it is just us that placed ourselves in that situation.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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hunh? peter?
/dad?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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I always found it best to kill any partner I've done a successful hard climb with, because if they were good enough to get me up it, then they're unwanted competition in the future. The "Fellowship of the rope" should always end in a noose.
Seriously, though, most of my long-term friendships are with people who were once, or may still be, climbing partners.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
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Peter: I was concentrating so hard on reading and trying to comprehend the article, I didn't notice the nurse come in.
She says I need to work on my slide show presentation for tonight and rest up for the beer drinking and story telling.
Sorry, Fritz ---at the Old Climbers Home.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Common experience allows for common understanding that allows for friendship based on that shared aspect. The kinship of the rope isn't causal, it is correlative and encouraging of friendship. In other words, a sufficient, but not a necessary condition for friendship between climbers. But if that's all he's saying, then it's not too profound and slightly verbose for the point.
conclusion: the analysis is reductionistic for something that is broadly philosophical and debateable. Aristotle described friendship as 'friendly feeling' toward the other: that what you would wish for yourself, you would wish for the other. It is by that "natural" perhaps, human, endeavor of friendly feeling, that maybe we find ourselves 'akin' to our climbing brethren wherever they are, but that doesn't mean a causal nexus for friendship per se.
still, an interesting topic...
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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The "Fellowship of the rope" should always end in a noose.
LOL!!!
classic
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L
climber
A place with poppies & flying monkeys...
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Well Peter, after laboriously struggling up/through/out of this Everest of an essay, I have 3 or maybe 4 observations from my dubious summit:
1. When Mr. Donnelly stated "It is to be hoped that this series has been more than an academic, myth-exploding exercise"... I fear he was destined to disappointment on both heads.
2. Mr. Donnelly, when he wrote his essays, may have styled himself another Joseph Campbell of sorts; again he was destined to disappointment.
3. When Mr. Donnelly ended by stating: "If we are to have any control over the future of climbing we ought to attempt to understand what climbing is all about, what it is that we are attempting to protect"... I fear he is either delusional in regards to his own true motives, or stupendously oblivious to the nature of people and their passions. Or both.
Control the future of climbing??? What? Put little sticky notes all over the gym and around the crags, warning people "You won't make any real friends here. DON'T START CLIMBING!"
4. Mr. Donnelly could be the posterchild for having been educated beyond his intelligence.
Having said that, I'd certainly like to thank you for posting this, Peter. Mr. Donnelly gave me a whole new level of understanding about what it means to be trapped in your mind. ;-)
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Hey you guys are being to hard on Peter-He is just trying to show you that it is possible to think outside the box, or was it inside the box, or maybe it was on top the box or hell maybe it wasn't even a box?
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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well, i liked the piece more than l and some of you others did. weirdly, i don't remember this piece or the earlier ones in the series, although i must've read them.
it is worth pointing out that donnelly was writing before the rise of sport climbing. the [hrase "belay slave" was unknown. folks hadn't yet widely begun paying randoms to hold a gri-gri for hours.
the idea that there was a common "brotherhood of the rope" that joined all climbers generally and partners especially in some sort of transcendent bond really was a popular cliche. and you do still hear it from time to time, even here on st, where the range of social interactions on display ought to make most folks more skeptical.
and in retrospect, i think deonnelly is correct, that david roberts was one of the only period popular writers to comment in a more realistic way on the "brotherhood" of the rope.
peter, do you remember what the three other "fallacies" were?
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 6, 2010 - 10:41pm PT
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thanks Guido/Joe McKeown.
May I remind you characters I did not write this 28 year old article but am posting it for discussion. The reactions so far are really effing strange.
Thought-pieces like this appeared often on Mountain, Ken Wilson's publication. It was a great magazine, for years was in parallel to Ascent and carried on from where Ascent left off, finally closing to everyone's dismay. Wilson was amazing also.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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More than a boX!
very cool article.
Most (all?) of my best friends are climbers.
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papa_eos
Trad climber
conejo valley, california
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Since this is article is several decades old, I wonder about the topic of "those individuals that climb at a high level, even after marriage". I know many married individuals who climb at a high level, myself included. But that could all be perception about what is a high level.
I actually liked the article, did shine some light on our sport of choice, seems like much of it still applies. However, some of it was a little too cut and dry for some topics. If he was wondering what 30 years in the future holds, I wonder what 30 years from now will hold for climbing?
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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I enjoyed L's response much more than the article.
Interesting that several respondents who enjoyed the article then stated that most of their close friends are climbers. That is exactly the opposite of Donnelly's thesis. The point of the article is that climbing does not lead to close friendships. Or at least no more so than any other sport.
It seemed that he was arguing against some literature that romanticizes the character building and friendship benefits of climbing. I can sort of relate to that. People make all kinds of nonsensical claims about the benefits of sports and different programs in order to get support and money and customers. When I was doing a lot of ropes course instruction the training and literature stressed some deep meaning of each activity, which (in my opinion) was mostly Bull and distracted from the actual meanings that could be derived from the activities.
What I would find interesting is hearing about others experiences with climbing friendships. I enjoyed the article when Donnelly related his personal experiences.
Like him, I had many partners and have enjoyed climbing, kayaking and adventuring with a wide variety of people. Most of them, I would do stuff with again. A few, I would rather not do stuff with again. Some people I enjoy being around occasionally, but not too often.
My closest friends are people that I do a variety of adventures and activities with. I like the activities but they are also excuses to be with my friends. Seems to me that the greater the range of activities I do with someone the more opportunity to understand them in different ways. That is assuming there is a basic compatibility and understanding to begin with.
Mike Latendresse is one of my best friends, though I do not see him very often. He was a climbing partner and a partner in kayaking and skiing and other activities as well. I like being around him and almost anything I might do is made better by his participation. Climbing did not make us compatible, but climbing gave our compatibility a medium to grow in.
Another fellow was a regular partner for a couple of years. We got along and had good times, but were not super close. I got the ambition to climb Magical Mystery Tour, above Reed's Pinnacle area. It is probably a piece of junk, but I had my heart set on it. We get up there and I climb the first pitch. He watches and says, "Nope! I am not climbing on that crap!" I was bummed. We bail, drive home in silence and never climb together again. We were still part of a group that did stuff together, but we found other partners for climbing.
A couple years later 2 good partners and I were going up East Buttress of El Capitan. I lead up the 3rd or 4th pitch which is basically a knobby 4th class wall. My partners freak and refuse to continue. I plead and cajole, but they are adamant, so we bail. At the base, I am bummed and morose and disappointed. But we talk about it, then go over to some one pitch climbs that they want to do. We get climbing and in a little while I was over it and having fun again. Good friends were able to cheer me up even after they disappointed me.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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I don't necessarily agree with what the article says, and in fact think it risky to draw generalizations about the subject. There's very wide variance in climber-behaviours. But I do think it's interesting to read and discuss such subjects.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 7, 2010 - 05:57pm PT
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There is nothing risky here, Anders. Heavens.
Donnelly is not saying that:
if you have a climbing partner, then this is not a suitable friend.
Nor is he saying:
if you have a friend, then this is not a suitable climbing partner.
Rather, he is examining that merely by climbing together, people do not necessarily form by extension, substantial and regular life friendship from their roped partners. This point is almost a given, really. Again, he is not saying it does not happen at all but that to expect it to always produce friendship is to be mislead. And I guess if you tie this up with his meta-fallacy construction, there are supposed to be critical issues.
And he goes on to variously cite 30 sources. I think he has worked pretty hard on this subject. Probably the most offputting part of the article are his conclusions at the end of the sixth page, as others have noted upthread. But recall that this is the fourth part of a much longer essay. So overall, he proposes that if one takes all four parts of this thinking, he says he has shown that “the fallacies are not isolated” but all parts of a bigger fallacy and we are currently living with “a picture of climbing that is blatantly false”.
I think the four fallacies he has in mind are supposed to be:
Climbing is not really dangerous
Climbing is non-competitive
Climbing is character building
Climbing leads people to form close relationships.
And if so, then his essays are worth really understanding and also explains why he is gets a bit excited at the end. Maybe someone has the prior Mountain issues and can grunt out the rest of the writing here. I assume it would be the 3 prior issues to #83.
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L
climber
H2O..what the heck is this H2O thing you speak of?
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Sorry Peter--I didn't mean to make it sound like Mr. Donnelly was a total bozo or something. He did a heck of a lot of research (look at all those citings!)...and really thought about this thing. I just found it an odd sort of bone to chew...but in 1982, it was probably prime rib.
Perhaps it was the way he tied off the haul line at the end that bothered me the most. That, and his intent in writing the article. It gets a bit murky, if you ask me. The entire "protecting climbing and knowing what we're protecting" invocation seemed...er...like vanilla frosting on roast beef.
I also realize that your intent in posting it was for thought-provoking discourse...which I believe was achieved in spades. It was thought-provoking! My thoughts were provoked! It was great! ;-)
Seriously--I meant the "thank you" in my earlier post. Apologies for any vicarious criticisms you may have fielded.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 7, 2010 - 06:40pm PT
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Thanks L. Donnelly's academic field is just this sort of stuff. Social policy and sports. Very unusual discipline. I remember when I bought this issue back in 1982 I did not read his article... I thought was another Ken Wilson welded shut hairball. But now I find it interesting if not maybe as directly written as it could have been. So many academic essays are turgid, if truth be told, and aren't written very well----they lose readers as the pages turn. I guess his points aren't actually huge but just "writ large".
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Paul M, do you 'get' Irony, even a little bit?
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Peter i read that article many years ago (some old timer gave me like 15yrs worth of mountian mags just for my reading enjoyment) from the original mag and i liked it.
however don't feel bad because most people on the "taco site" hide behind their computer.
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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Jaybro,
"Paul M, do you 'get' Irony, even a little bit?"
edit: Apparently not. It went right over my head.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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It's worth pointing out again how early this piece was. Sociology of sport was still really a novelty--
Guttmann's From Ritual to Record (1978) is often mentioned as the foundational book, and it was still pretty fresh. Donnelly was the editor of one of the early academic journals.
So for me, it was really cool to see this, because I knew Donnelly by reputation in sociology of sport, but had forgotten entirely that he did this stuff.
Tx again to Peter for all the pick and shovel work.
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Thanks for the article Peter perhaps I will jump out of the box a bit.
Impossible to even partially catagorize. Bit stuffy for me I am afraid but I do like the quote from L about Donnelly:
"the poster child for having been educated beyond his intelligence."
Oddly enough, today, I came across this letter from Pratt to Roper in 1965 while Roper was in the Army. Provides a rare window into one unique climbing relationship of that era and a glimpse into numerous others by a man who unfortunately rarely opened up to such levels publicly.
As far as whether climbing lead people to form close friendships or not. Simple. Yes and No.
PFC Steve Roper
HQ Company
197th Infantry Brigade
Fort Benning, GA
March 18, 1965
Steve,
It was extremely good to hear from you after all these months. You may be certain that once you are free and with us again, the army will never be mentioned. As you say, there is never any need for the subject to be discussed by those of us who have "served." I know and understand only too well what it is like. So on to other things.
Your letter asked many questions which are important to you and knowing you as I do, I was able to read a great deal between the lines. Some of your questions are easy to answer and I'll start with the least complicated ones. I have been working at Gerry's for one month now. [Steve] Komito is still there but he has only one week left before leaving for California to join Doug Tompkins in The North Face. Gerry's has treated Komito and all others who have worked there like sh#t. And believe me, [Gerry] Cunningham is literally going to pay for this. Every demonstration of pettiness and intolerance on the part of these profit-mongering, vegetized unpeople is going to hurt them where it hurts most—right in their goddamned wallets.
Komito has continued to perform many favors and acts of kindness for me and for many other climbers. Colorado's loss is definitely California's gain. I hope that he will be treated well and will be happy there. He probably isn't fully aware of how many friends he has in the climbing world. I shall remain perhaps another month after he leaves, provided that I will be able to stomach Komito's replacement.
Tex [Boissier] is married and living in Boulder. I have seen him only twice since I've been here so I don't really know how he is, although many people have told me that he is not too happy because his wife makes life miserable for him. [Glen] Denny is back working in Yosemite. He didn't do too much climbing in the Valley last summer but he did have a great trip to South America. [Layton] Kor is as great and nervous as ever. Right now he is making a winter ascent of a route on Longs. He is climbing solo a lot now.
Everyone plans to hit Yosemite this year. Your guide has really sparked a lot of interest in the Valley, as I hoped it would. Climbers from Canada, SLC, Boulder and England are definitely going to arrive this spring.
I shall digress for awhile to slightly less savory subjects just to get them out of the way for more important questions, although right now I imagine that an early out is very important to you. There are three types of early release from active duty. One is the hardship discharge. It is the best because there is no specified time limit for release. A person may get out any time if his application is approved, but it is also the most difficult to obtain since it involves an extremely serious hardship at home (death of father, mother paralyzed type of thing) or serious problems with one's business. This is how [Yvon] Chouinard got out early. However this procedure involves all sorts of supporting documents from family physician, lawyer, accountants, etc., all difficult to forge.
Then there is an early out for enrolling in school. This is the surest way of getting out early but it involves enrolling in college somewhere because the army must have letters from the school accepting your application as well as evidence that you have paid tuition before an early out is granted.
I think the best way is the method I used. I was released ninety-two days early for seasonal employment. As far as the army is concerned, seasonal employment means cotton picking or corn harvesting or lobster fishing or some other such crap. So many guys have tried this ruse to get out early that they started clamping down when I was in. But, if you use some really far out job, seasonal in nature, they think it must be on the level. The weirder the better. I think you could use the same thing I did and have a good chance of getting out in September. I used a completely fictitious climbing school, wrote a letter to my C.O. which stated that I had been accepted as an instructor on condition that I could be released in September—and I got out.
Don't make the mistake of requesting an early out for something like corn harvesting or hay picking or some other type of farm work—the bastards know most of those are phony. But something far out and completely new to them like a climbing school will have a good chance of getting you out. You also have the advantage that there really is a climbing school in California now. I am sure Tompkins will let you use letterhead of the California Mountaineering Guide Service to add authenticity. I can also send along one of the brochures of the climbing school for verification of the school's existence. Then the ass-holes won't even have to bother to check up on it. Let me know when you are ready to start the thing and I'll send all necessary papers. I welcome the chance to screw them in any small way I can.
On to more pleasant things. Last Friday was Komito's last day at Gerry's. He left without shedding a tear. Although I think he would have appreciated some show of gratitude after three-and-a-half years of labor for the "company." He will be in Boulder for one more week and then take off for California. [Eric] Beck, [Mort] Hempel, Mac [Frank Magary] and others are preparing a rousing welcome for him which I hope may alleviate his feelings of sadness upon leaving a place (Boulder) that he loves.
Christ [Chris Fredericks] is down for the weekend to visit his girl. Yes, he has a girl now and is quite happy, even though his mining job at Climax is not too pleasant. While I am on the subject, I would like to deny any rumors or reports that you might have heard about me having a mistress. You should know better than that. There was a girl with whom I spent some time last summer, but she was in no way my mistress, nor could she ever be. I haven't seen her for several months and it is quite likely that I will never see her again. Boulder has been equally fruitless despite the promises of Kor that I would have a woman within three days. For years I've heard Boulder touted as the little Paris of America, but the fact remains that, after all, Boulder is in America, and therefore no different from any other city. The weather has remained miserable now for six weeks. I have been climbing three times since I arrived and probably won't be able to do too much more before I leave in April.
Which brings me to the climbing. The season is going to start like all other seasons. I have to work all summer because I'm broke. Kor has to work. [Royal] Robbins, [Tom] Frost and Chouinard are going to Europe in the early spring, etc., etc. The truth of the matter is that every one of us will be in Yosemite by the middle of April. Robbins, Frost and Chouinard really are going to Europe eventually, but only after they knock off all the climbs they didn't get done last year plus as many new ones as possible. Robbins, [John] Harlin, [Jim] McCarthy and others are going to Kangchangunga (spelling?) this year also. Kor will spend some time in Yosemite and then take off for Canada, Alaska, or Europe. As usual I have plans for the Tetons, Bugaboos and Wind Rivers but will undoubtedly spend another five months in the Valley.
When I was released from the army, I was faced for the first time in seven years with some real and very disturbing doubts about climbing as a way of life. Would I still be able to climb? Would I even have the same feeling for it? My doubts were partly erased by the Tahquitz trip and even further erased by our desert trip. Yet still I would not know until I was back in Yosemite. The questions I asked myself were the same ones you asked me. How long did I think I could go on climbing? Could I accept death in climbing as the final end result? Was I really finding meaning and value in this way of life or was it just an exciting, pseudo-adventurous game from which I derived some degree of self-glorification?
Last summer I found out. Never have I been so completely sure that the life I have been leading and the life I intend to continue to lead is right. Although climbing contains some ass-holes, they can be ignored. I will continue to climb until I am killed or until I am no longer physically capable of doing even the easiest routes. My feeling for the sport has not lessened in the least; if anything I am more enthusiastic than ever and I do not intend to change or modify my basic way of life in the slightest. Since my release I have found climbing even more satisfying and more personally valuable than ever before. Killed climbing? Do you think I would rather die in an automobile wreck or of old age brain rot, or in some ass-hole politician's war? I'm not going to let anything get in my way.
The army did teach me one thing. That doing something you don't want to do, especially when you are forced to do it by something like the army, is the complete negation of my own concept of freedom. As far as I am concerned, freedom has nothing to do with politics. To me, freedom means the right to travel, to participate unmolested in any goddamn activity you want and the freedom to choose your manner of death. I know exactly what I want to do and how I want to do it. There's nothing more to be said. Consider all the really great people you know—Chouinard, Hempel, Frost, Robbins. These are the people who do not change and remain the really sane, decent human beings in the world. As far as I am concerned, the rest are ass-holes, some sort of alien life-forms.
You say you have read Catch-22? I agree wholeheartedly with Yossarian's definition of the enemy: "Anyone who is trying to kill me." Likewise, I feel that my enemy is anyone who would, given the power to do so, attempt to restrict individual liberty and this includes all officials, law officials, army sergeants, communists, Catholics, and HUAC [the House on Un-American Activities Committee]. Of course I'm prejudiced but I cannot imagine a sport other than climbing which offers such a complete and fulfilling expression of individuality. And I will not give it up nor even slow down, not for man, nor woman nor wife nor god. Celine sums it all up beautifully in "Journey to the End of the Night:" "I piss on you all from a considerable height."
I sincerely hope that the army does not change you one whit. The Roper whom I knew should be the Roper who is now and who should remain after the army. Or, to paraphrase the Bible: "As Roper once was, so he should be." I accepted you as you were because I believed that your opinions and outlook were right. If society disagreed with you, society was wrong. The history of mankind is a history of 99.9 percent of the people being wrong. The enlightened few who remain must either be martyred or suffer self-imposed exile. I prefer exile to martyrdom and so I do not choose to mix with people beyond my narrow little circle of climbers and people of similar temperament. It is the world that is insane, not those few harmless individuals whom the world judges as insane. Remember this: we are not ordinary men and so we do not lead common-place lives. What we have chosen to follow is the right way. I am irrevocably committed to that way and every day I spend climbing confirms it. We are all waiting for you, the Valley is waiting, the desert will always be waiting. Hang on. Give those insane, inhuman sons-of-bitches their twenty-one months. If you come out the Roper I once knew, then you have won.
Very sincerely,
Chuck
Chuck Pratt (1939-2000) was one of the main protagonists of Yosemite's Golden Age. In the time that followed the reception of the letter, Colorado regained Komito. Kor completed his ascent on Longs. Robbins, Frost and Chouinard went to Europe. Roper was sent to Vietnam, where he served without distinction. And Pratt remained committed to the end. —Ed.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Thought-pieces like this appeared often on Mountain, Ken Wilson's publication. It was a great magazine and carried on from where Ascent left off. Wilson was amazing also
Minor correction here Peter. Ken took over Mountain Craft (changing it to just Mountain) in 1968, just one year after the first issue of Ascent was published. So he didn't carry on from where Allen and Roper left off, but rather worked simultaneously with them. And yes, he was an amazing guy. A committed climber, family man, and fun to be with.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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Oh, there's little doubt that climbing is character building
but that's not necessarily a gud thing; lots of 'characters'
in prison.
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Peter
Indeed Ken was a fun person to be with. Intense about everything. You can identify with that I imagine. I spent some time with him in England in 71 and it was a whirlwind tour. Tour off London at 100 mph with the mandatory "chiefs" in the front seat and "squaws in the back". "Can't have me mates seeing it any other way." Mandatory tour of all the climbing pubs. Crazy about the classic BIG American cars of the 50s and 60s. Crazy about politics and as everyone knows crazy about climbing. Excellent photographer, demanding editor and super source for anything and everything about European climbing. HIs knowledge of the American climbing scene was legendary. A turbo charged Roper!
Visited us in Santa Cruz at the old Branciforte house one time, probably around 73, and as to be expected arrived in the largest American car he could rent! Nice group of the local infamous Santa Cruz mommas took care of him and made sure he was comfortable. Loss contact over the years but I still cherish the memories of fun times back then. Was a sad day when Mountain closed the door.
cheers
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 8, 2010 - 09:41am PT
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Thanks for the insanely good Pratt letter post, Joe!! I had not seen it; is this a published piece or an item from your personal library?? Wow. Really valuable to us, isn't it!
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Peter
I pulled that out of an old Alpinist years ago. The funny part was just the other day, I was looking at a number of letters I had scanned that Roper had written me while he was in the Army. Very interesting things indeed and I might even be tempted to post several that would pass the ST censor parameters and not invade his private realm. I guess you could call that-published post humorously?
cheers
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 8, 2010 - 03:35pm PT
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The fear clearly being here that text by Roper would be so riddled with expletives that most of the pages would be blacked out. (g!!) Or worse, a favorite and much-coddled scanner might die running across such words!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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What great stuff! They just don't write stuff like this any more, what a shame.
I remember the Four Fallacies. One of them was the fallacy that climbing is character building. I believe another one was that climbing is not really dangerous.
OK, here we go:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=TFS7BVUoaHAC&pg=PA235&lpg=PA235&dq=four+fallacies+of+climbing+donnelly&source=bl&ots=OZ67X7DMNL&sig=0cCo5RQ46NHPURoH0_86ncJM20E&hl=en&ei=9rpHS-PnEIK2lAfek5gW&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBEQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=four%20fallacies%20of%20climbing%20donnelly&f=false
The other fallacy being that climbing is non-competitive.
Even more interesting is this, he is now on the faculty of my alma mater McMaster University, in Hamilton, Ontario.
Peter Donnelly
School of Physical Education and Athletics, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada L8S 4K1
Evidently this was not so when he wrote the Four Fallacies essays, or I certainly would have bumped into him in MUCCC.
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L
climber
H2O..what the heck is this H2O thing you speak of?
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Excellent letter from Pratt, Guido!
"I piss on you all from a considerable height" cracked me up. I've heard that quote for years...just never knew who owned it.
Thanks for posting it.
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BooDawg
Social climber
Paradise Island
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Feb 24, 2010 - 04:06pm PT
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Thanks so much, Peter, for posting the original article. I'll re-read it sometime when I'm flossing, perhaps. I do know that climbing has helped me to create life-long bonds with, not only my climbing mates, but also with folks with whom I've never climbed. Yet I realize there are climbers who never form lasting bonds and treat their partners like a one-night stand. The full range of relationships is found in the climbing world.
And thanks also, Guido, for posting Chuck's letter to Roper, revealing some of the history of climbing and also the nature of the relationships of some of the climbers.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Feb 24, 2010 - 04:10pm PT
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yea so standing at mortality's property line is stripping.
doing so with a ropemate exposes your most private.
going at it alone, you get blisters.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Feb 24, 2010 - 04:11pm PT
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... cause you do every pitch twice.
and you've to hear your own bitching.
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jstan
climber
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Feb 24, 2010 - 04:42pm PT
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I made two attempts to read the piece and failed both times. After wandering from one
unsubstantiated perception to another for a few cycles I just got the feeling there was little hope
of finding any substance. I do love footnotes, and the piece does have some of those.
I did come on the part about Gunks climbers saying 10's in Yosemite can be done by easterners
who do 9's in the Gunks. Here is some actual data. Limited, but actual data. In the years I was in
the Gunks
1. we did not talk about Yosemite much. We would occasionally drive 6000 miles to get there
but Yosemite was not a frequent topic of conversation any time I was within earshot. (My hearing
is, I would say, average or better.)
2. While there was conversation about difficulty, it generally ran to "How the hell does one get
over that overhang? Is there a secret hold? Numbers really were not the center of our world.
Generally on an easterner's first visit to the Valley they learned the climbing is very different.
More grunting and less swinging. Which is cool. Both can be fun.
I don't want my comments to be seen as other than an attempt to relay data. Mr. Donnelly comes
from an entirely different world and I would expect his contribution to reflect this. While I was in
DC I associated frequently with one Brit, finding his take on the world to be outrageously funny
and perceptive. If Mr. Donnelly had felt free to incorporate more of that in his piece I would have
swallowed it whole and gone looking for more. I would that he had.
On the basic question of the relations between climbers I think the real point is as follows. I said
perhaps a total of two words to Chuck Pratt. That's no relationship. But I would do just about anything for Chuck. Why?
Because the trajectory of his life was absolutely beautiful. Beyond measure.
I think that is the rock upon which the relationships between climbers, and for that matter people
generally, are based.
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Feb 24, 2010 - 05:34pm PT
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"Because the trajectory of his life was absolutely beautiful. Beyond measure.
I think that is the rock upon which the relationships between climbers, and for that matter people
generally, are based."
As always Jstan-well spoken!
In reference to Pratt's letter to Roper, and his offer of assistance to provide bona fied evidence of a job offer for early release from the Army here is the brochure he was probably alluding to. The concept, California Mountaineering Guide Service, I believe originated with Tompkins. Short lived- it did poses a stellar cast of individuals: Tompkins, Pratt, Mitchell, Krisjanson and Hempel to keep them all in tune.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Feb 24, 2010 - 07:16pm PT
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Some people think about subjects in life, some people talk about those subjects, and other just live life.
I've lost touch with most of my climbing partners, married one (will be 16 years tomorrow) and sired 3 more. Then again I've lost touch with alot of people and have few close friends.
I can't say that climbing leads to forming close relationships over any other activity, but I can say that sharing climbing experiences with close friends is gud.
I'd also rather hang out with a climber that has a totally different viewpoint on life than someone that has a similar viewpoint (as mine), but no passion for life.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
Will know soon
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Feb 24, 2010 - 10:00pm PT
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Climbing Leads People To Form Close Friendships......Oh Yeah, I have so many grate friends now that were not in my life two years ago. The comraderie, flexibility, craziness, caring and the ability to be able to teach others the craft they love so well is just epic.
My life has changed in a wonderful way and I have only those that cared enough to care and help.....to thank.
Also, Cheers to those that are no longer on this planet but took time to be a friend to someone needing friends and direction. Peace, Love and Joy....lynnie
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 26, 2010 - 06:36pm PT
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The tie-in that binds! LOL
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| Messages 1 - 39 of total 39 in this topic |
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