Harnesses: Belay Loop. Use it or loose it?

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apogee

climber

Dec 20, 2009 - 12:56pm PT

"Aside from Skinners very worn belay loop, has any belay loop ever failed?"

Not that I've ever heard of, and I bet that any examples that someone might find would be related to some kind of improper belay loop use (i.e. Skinner's long-term girth hitched daisys in his loop). Those who will not use the belay loop because of fears of failure are being pretty irrational, seems to me.

"The harnesses are designed to be used with the belay loops."

Yeah, I hear this argument a lot- that the manufacturers specifically state that their harnesses are designed to be used that way. That's true enough, but I think it's worth understanding their rationales for this directive: I suspect that it has little to with the way the harness performs with a loop vs. a 'biner, and more to do with product liability. Manufacturers of products that have potential for harm or injury are required to make great efforts to illustrate how to use their product properly, and give examples of improper use. By doing so, they comply with consumer protection regulations, but importantly, they demonstrate due diligence in informing the consumer adequately in the proper use of the item.

The more variations in the use of an item, the more complex the instruction becomes in how to use it, and the greater the potential for improper use/failure/litigation. It's much simpler, and is likely much more defensible, to show one method of use- since belay loops are ubiquitous these days, and they are quite safe and effective, this is the logical method to focus on.

This is just my suspicion, though, and I'd be curious to hear what the product designers and legal departments of the manufacturers (not the sales rep, customer service, or retailers) have to say about it.

Tork

climber

Yosemite

Dec 20, 2009 - 12:58pm PT

Don't listen to that guy Flanders!!

You should see his gear. I think, to him, the gear is all for show. That guy gets his belay from above. I've seen it! So has Dave from Earth.

What up Doug?
What up Dave?

Jeff

Trad climber

Calgary

Dec 20, 2009 - 01:06pm PT

If I am trad climbing in the Rockies the belay loop is the least of my worries. Kind of like books on belay anchors where they have 4 bomber pieces in granite all equalized and argue over the better arrangement. More typical of a trad belay on limestone is 1 good piece, 1 Ok one and several shitty ones, all tied together. Many of the old belays on Yamnuska would featured a 1963 piton as the main piece backed up by various degrees of shite. I didn't mind when the guides started bolting belays.
Alpine North Face belays in the Rockies can be worse, just don't fall.

WBraun

climber

Dec 20, 2009 - 01:10pm PT

Brian in SLC -- "I'll use a belay loop on harnesses that have them. For belaying and rappelling. What they were designed for, and, seems to make sense to me."

This is consistent with what I've observed 99.9% of the time in the field.

I belay and rappel off the harness loop points because it's efficient and ergonomic to me and I'm entirely conscious of the limitations and strengths of this during use. I'm also aware of the phenomena of the figure eight device levering open a locking biner gate. I rappel off a figure 8 and belay off a grigri 99.9% of the time.

I use these methods not because they're safer nor am I worried that the belay loop is no good. The belay loop on these harnesses are very strong.

No real need to worry there (belay loop) other than look for excessive wear periodically.

I really could care less how people belay or how they clip in to their harnesses or what they do to modify their harnesses or gear, as long as they don't kill me or themselves.

To that end I can't even believe I made this post as many people use systems that work great for them and they are comfortable with them and they do know WTF they are doing.

Not everything is done the way the gym guy says it's supposed to be done.

Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber

Sprocketville

Dec 20, 2009 - 01:10pm PT

swami.

the bolts, what about the bolts?

the anchor, what about the anchor?

what about the zombie holding the rope? (me)

look out....

rgold

Trad climber

Poughkeepsie, NY

Dec 20, 2009 - 01:12pm PT

One of my main partners is funny. They tie in like most folks do, then, clip their belay locker on the belay loop into the rope loop formed by the tie in. Just pure habit. Can't be talked out of it. Funny.

Actually, there's a method to this madness; I do the same thing and got the idea from a recommendation of Chris Harmston's on the old wrecked climbing. The idea is to transfer the belaying load directly to the anchor, rather than having the anchor tie-in and the loaded belay loop try to tear the harness points apart.

jstan

climber

Dec 20, 2009 - 01:47pm PT

Early on when harnesses first appeared many backed up the belay loop with a loop of 1" webbing that also goes around the waist loop. As has been mentioned, a little duct tape to make clipping easy does the trick.

As to failure of the loop, Todd was pretty experienced and thought his loop was good. Is there a reason for us to bet the farm we are going to be smarter than Todd?

drunkenmaster

Social climber

santa rosa

Dec 20, 2009 - 02:02pm PT

i do what werner said - why chop a perfectly good back up!?

Brian in SLC

Social climber

Salt Lake City, UT

Dec 20, 2009 - 02:16pm PT

As to failure of the loop, Todd was pretty experienced and thought his loop was good. Is there a reason for us to bet the farm we are going to be smarter than Todd?

Unfortunatly, yes.

Some also try to learn from others, uhh, misadventures.

Interesting that Arc'teryx (and Mountain Gear) sponsered a harness testing program. Seem to recall the results were reported in a climbing magazine, but, can't quickly find them online.

Arc'teryx harness info:

BELAYING AND RAPPELLING
Attach all belay and rappel devices to
the belay loop with a locking carabiner
(Figure 3). The belay loop is engineered
for extreme structural strength
(>15kN/ 3350 lbf), equal to the
main harness structure, and when used
correctly for belaying and rappelling
provides a safer two-point load. Do
not employ any attachment system
that causes undue direct friction to the
belay loop or either of the tie-in points.
Never girth hitch anything to your belay
loop. This can focus abrasion in a single
location. Before use, always inspect the
belay loop for signs of wear or damage,
see: “Inspection, Lifespan, and Care”.
The belay loop is to be used as the attachment
point in any rescue situation.

Be safe out there!

-Brian in SLC

jstan

climber

Dec 20, 2009 - 02:26pm PT

Brian:
You made my point better than did I. The manufacturer says you need to inspect the loop for wear. Rather than assume I can out-inspect Todd, I also use 1" webbing to back up the belay loop.

TGT

Social climber

So Cal

Dec 20, 2009 - 02:53pm PT

I've almost always used the belay loop, unless clipping into the middle of the rope. Then I'll run the carabiner thru the tie in point just because it keeps the tie point out of the way.

RGold's point about cross loading is more important.

I've quit using these.

I don't know why BD sells them with the ATC. They only sell them stand alone in Europe. They end up sideways all the time with the load across the gate and spine.

More pear shaped lockers with rounded ends self orient in the correct position. Even though it's a bit on the heavy side I really like this one.

Hummerchine

Trad climber

East Wenatchee, WA

Dec 20, 2009 - 03:09pm PT

I've been climbing for over 30 years, so I was around during the dark ages before belay loops. I can recall (barely) when they came out, at the time they freaked me out some so I did not use them either at first (belayed off tie-in points as discussed above). But once I started to trust and use the loop, there was no turning back. To me everything seems better using it. Less cluster, quicker to rig and unrig, gets belay-rappel device further from body/clothing, can inspect rigging easier, puts device in a better orientation, no cross-loading of biner, using harness as it was designed...pretty much everything discussed above. Not that I think it's instant death or anything to belay off tie-in points...but it just seems somehow wrong. I'm surprised to hear how many on this forum still do this. Oh, and to the strength of the loop issue...I don't worry about it at all. Those things are double loops so redundant, and completely bomber. If it gets worn much, or worries you even the tiniest bit, then it's time to buy a new harness. It was cool to see that Wild Country testing video; man, Skinner's loop must have looked so bad! It was also cool to see how much they stretch before breaking.

Werner, I'm also surprised to hear you use a figure 8 for rapping. Again, not that it's particularly dangerous or anything, but the slot devices that most now use just seem so much better. I used to use a figure 8 myself, but once switching I have not looked back. The newer devices have more friction, won't pass a stopper knot, and in particular keep the ropes straight so they don't get tangled and prevent pulling the rope down. Do you do any special trick to keep your ropes straight? My personal favorite is the Metolius BRD with a Petzl Am'D Ball-Lock, since it has more friction than any other device...and I like skinny ropes.

No offense to anyone, everybody has their own way of looking at this stuff and I'm sure what you all do works fine for you!

WBraun

climber

Dec 20, 2009 - 03:17pm PT

Hummer

I use the figure 8 because it has so many other applications that can be used with it and not just a belay or rappel device.

It's a versatile tool with many different uses and applications that can be initiated on the fly.

Hummerchine

Trad climber

East Wenatchee, WA

Dec 20, 2009 - 03:20pm PT

Please tell! I'm a gear slut, want to know everything!

Ropeboy

Trad climber

Fresno CA

Dec 20, 2009 - 04:03pm PT

I tie the rope into the belay loop because it is plenty strong and keeps things utterly simple. A carabiner has a gate that can come open at the wrong time, something the belay loop will never do.

10b4me

Ice climber

Ice Caves at the Sads

Dec 20, 2009 - 04:10pm PT

I am not 100% stoked on the belay loop. I do belay off the thing, but when rapping use a locking carabiner that connects the leg loops with the waist belt.
just old school I guess.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Dec 20, 2009 - 04:14pm PT

RC.com - but then you've already trolled a pretty solid list of folks...

Jay Wood

Trad climber

Fairfax, CA

Dec 20, 2009 - 04:44pm PT

1- I have watched as a belayer fed rope in and out, locking and unlocking the cross-loaded screw gate biner with every stroke. This is safer?

2- Also common to wait at belays while the belay loop-phobic struggle to get their belay rigged/unrigged.

3- extension from belay loop, in addition to allowing correct belay orientation, makes rappel much safer, especially for back up friction knot (as mentioned above)- a critical safety issue IMO. (Possibly less safe in the hair-in-the-rappel dimension, but still)

4- My buddy broke belay loop during a fall while bolting w/ a Bosch on lead. The drill was attached w/ cord to belay loop. It's not clear, but I believe the drill hung up, and he static-fell onto the cord/belay loop.

5- I once clipped something into the rope tie in loop, and it turned out that I had clipped in to the tail that was tucked back into the knot. I don't do that anymore. (clip to the tie in loop I mean)