Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 1, 2009 - 09:39pm PT
My first encounter was in 1996 in the daytime at the Skaha bluffs up in BC, in the farthest back canyon.
I know a lot of people have had encounters, and are afraid of the ridicule so they clam up.
Sometimes a bigfoot encounter is not an actual sighting, but consists of more subtle clues. A wet dog smell. Or foot falls around your tent at night even though no one is near for miles. Rocks being clacked together. Glowing eyes in the forest at night.
Perhaps a low humming sound pervades your headspace in the wilderness when nothing but silence should be heard.
There is a Canadian whom is releasing the definitive Sasquatch evidence next year. Close up footage of a sleeping Sasquatch in kentucky, and some physical evidence too I believe.
They are a form of human, not ape. Some bigfoot have the ability to transcend geometric space, time and even probe into your mind. The real puzzle of the essence of Sasquatch's elusiveness will be solved by physicists, not biologists.
I am curious if anyone here dares to fess up to an encounter with one, or a sighting.
I'll fess up in general but I can't bring myself to elucidate
without provoking a bout of PTSD. I will say it occurred very close
to the scene of one of history's most infamous encounters at the Ape Cave
near Mt St Helens. My fingers are already getting too moist to type further.
I know there was a thread around here about some weird and wild stuff...much of which I think had to do with Sonora Pass and nighttime oddities. I have not had a personal encounter but I would love to hear some stories about it. I feel like most people don't completely discount it, or at least those who spend enough time in the wild to have seen how much of it there is and how little we know of it.
I think I would consider what the OP describes to be a hell of a lot scarier than seeing a ghost, any day. Except the low-frequency humming sound; that doesn't sound scary(unless it's more like a growl, I guess).
I know it's not the point of the thread ... but doesn't it strike anyone as odd that in a world where for the last 5 years, pretty much everyone has a camera on them, the only pictures that crop up are still the same 2 from the 70's ... I mean, if this were so common (we've got something 5 right here on the thread) ...
Jim, I think I am now retired from Sasquatch research ... there is considerable mental stress involved. Enough to make one reconsider that the relatively relaxing sport of climbing wasn't so bad after all.
All of BC is a bigfoot zone ....
Ensonik, the answer to your question lies in the mental abilities of Sasquatch. They know when someone is after a photo or video. you can't defeat your opponent if he is telepathic and aware of the capabilities of cameras.
Been all over the backcountry in Washington and never seen Bigfoot, but had a very strange encounter near the same place Reilly mentioned near Mt St Helens back in 1977. We were climbing the remote Shoestring Glacier on St Helens and had bivyed at the base of that climb on the far side of the mountain when the strangest and wildest noises we had ever heard came up to us from down below. Still gives me the shivers, it was so bizarre. We all slept pretty close to each other that night.
The term dimension is a good one, but I think it has been inadeqautely assigned it's defintition. The current defintion is purely spatial.
I would call the first dimension a geometric one. Where you are in physical space.
The next one would of course be time.
A third is one which I believe to be purely a mental state realm, which enables telepathy, out of body experiences, a medium for just the soul.
Let me also add telekineiss to the mix, I have observed rocks dropping out of the sky in slow motion during a Bigfoot contact.
Lastly there is this issue of invisibility, which is a big factor. I actually have video evidence of that on video too. If you are invisible you cannot see because you do not recieve light. In order to see you must poke two holes in your shield to observe the geometric world. An observer would just see a pair of eyes, or eye like signatures.
i am told that bigfoot can go to another version of reality, which they (bigfoot) call the "sometime place". Wierd huh ?
This year the major research breakthru was made by a US military crypotolinguist, Scott Nelson, whom analyzed the Sierra tapes, of bigfoot chatter, using military software and found all the components of a complex language.
LEB I dont know and I would be wary of anyone whom has too many answers
My videos indicate something electrical is going on which enables the transdimensional capabilities. Sasqautch can generate electrical fields that unlock some components of nature we have not yet even observed scientifically.
Please keep in mind that I am not attempting to cast dispersions here... but where are these videos of which you speak? They seem like they might be able to answer more questions faster than the written word.
Ensonik, the answer to your question lies in the mental abilities of Sasquatch. They know when someone is after a photo or video. you can't defeat your opponent if he is telepathic and aware of the capabilities of cameras.
I always kinda reckoned that Bigfoot's genetic skill/trait was that of ninja stealth. Some critters self camoflauge, some run fast, etc...--Sasquatch seems to have no curiousity about humans, and seems to have defenses to deal with them/us. FWIWIMO
knowing what evidence is going to be released next year, by the Canadian I previously reffered to, and the fact that he has offered to buy one of my clips, I am reasonably confident about publicly dislosing my experiences here
My experience is that what the North American Indians said about Sasquatch is true.
My biggest problem with coming forward with my experiences is this. The more Sasquatch experiences you seek and do have, the less believable you become.
I cannot describe alternate dimensions, because I have not experienced them, and they would fall beyond our terms of reference due to the conceptual limitations imposed on us being confined to the 3 or 4 dimensions we know.
I certainly believe in the Bigfoot concept and even in the possibility of the interdimensional stuff, but what I have seen/heard on those video clips is inconclusive at best. There are a whole bunch of them so I might have not watched the best one(s). Am I missing something? I just didnt gather much info from the flashing lights.
This video was shot in a campground I lived in for about 5 months, what ended up happening was the Sasquatch started coming into my campsite on occasion. I could hear their footsteps crunching through the gravel but not see them. The campground managers the previous year had quit their jobs because of all the BF activity there.
The night I shot this video, I have no memory of, I only discovered the video recently. Obviously there is no Sasquatch in it, but there are these lights which to me look like reality being ripped open. If you observe the flickering lights in the trees, the way the lights vibrate or spread little rays out, its something I think is significant. I have never seen anything like it. plus my memory was erased after filming it which is the really weird part.
I think this video shows some sort of interdimensional activity, which must be related to the sasquatch activity in the same location.
I put UFO in the title just to attract viewers on youtube, there is no UFO in it.
I suppose this could fall under a "Bigfoot encounter". So I will somewhat reluctantly share my story after all these years. And I expect it to be met with "skepticism and ridicule" But I refuse to "clamup".
It was @1978, and two of my friends enticed me into driving the hundred and some odd number of miles north from Mammoth to S. Tahoe to visit three young ladies. Two of the women were ex-girlfriends of theirs, and they were hoping to rekindle the romance that once was. And the third gal was their roommate and single. Since the math added up, and I had little to lose in the way of money(I had lost everything at the 21 tables more than once, including gas money home)and since they offered to cover the gas, I agreed to drive.
So, come about midnight the six of us were sitting around the fire and everything seemed to be going well. I had managed to not stick my big-foot(no pun intended)into my big mouth and it looked as if I would be, at worst, spending the night on the couch in front of a warm fire.
When suddenly the single young lady sitting next to me exclaims "I have to special order all my ski boots and they are very expensive"(the discussion at the moment was in regards to the cost of ski boots and pro-deals etc). And she explained that she was born with one foot larger than the other. And went on talking about her right foot being a size 9 and that she wished it was the same size as the other "normal left foot".
Wanting to assure her that there is nothing unusual with one foot being larger than the other. I first ask "What size is the left foot"? And she blurts out "Size 12"! And I respond with an incredulous "SIZE 12? THAT IS ONE BIGFOOT"!! (I had expected her to say size 6 or size 7, it being the "normal foot").
Evidently this was an 'issue' with the gal, that my 'friends' had failed to inform me about. It was if I had been set up. The one final test. The $100,000.00 question. And I blow it.
And that is as close as I ever got to seeing "Bigfoot" since the young lady kept her feet snugly laced inside her over-sized Sorrels. And I spent the rest of the night in the back of my pickup truck.
After a long mtn bike ride in the Mt St Helens vicinity, we were beat and sitting quitely in the car, no lights, windows down, no sound, prob 10 PM late summer (near the elk pass trailhead, east side of the peak on the edge of the Dark Divide roadless area).
Out of nowhere come several very primal and loud screech/screams, a second or two long, a second or two apart. Then we hear it again, but its in the opposite direction from us! Its another 'one' calling back!
And these creatures go back and forth for about 5 minutes, closing the gap between them with us in the middle!
Finally we were a bit too freaked and honked the horn a few times. The night was quiet after that.
Camped out half way between the lodge and the river inlet. Typical bear country, black bears that is.
We're all around the fire, 4 of us with my pup, a rat-terrier breed. She was happy around the fire off leash until we hear sticks breaking and somewhat heavy footprints. (Most can tell the difference between deer or bear...or bigger).
Well, I kinda joked,"That sounds like a bear, dude, we should check it out" to my partner. At that point the dog scurries off reluctantly to check it out.
We satyed put and continued to drink.
The dog started to bark ferociosly and yelp like she was scared. I got up and grabbed a piece and told my buddy to follow me. By the time I took 10 steps, my dog was literally running back to camp shaking with her tail between her legs and would NOT leave my wife.
It kinda freaked me out because I didn't want bears around us sleeping, especially wild (non Yosemite) bears. I told my buddy we should go scare it off, and he agreed. I took another 10 paces and made and heard something grunt at me.
At this point I was near sh#t-in-pants, yet intrigued. I told my buddy to come "check this out". We were still 20 paces from the bonfire.
I said something like "hey, get the f*#k out". Again, a real low, somewhat agressive, "Huh!!!!" came at us.
The f*#ker stayed for about 5 minutes watching us but we couldn't see it. Just hear it. It started to creep us out so we kinda went back to camp and kept an eye out for a while.
Nothing else ocurred, but we had to canoes ready to go out in the lake.
Prolly a bear, but I dunno. We never saw anything and I've never heard black bears do that. They either charge or walk away without incident.
Sqwaking noises..... I heard jungle-like screeches many nights in the woods at the cabin this last few months. I assumed it was owls making kills(and the squirrel or bunny or chipmunk making the screeches). I'd hear the owls "HOOOOO!" So proud, so loud. I imagined those guys stood five feet tall!
So I'd hear the HOOOO's, and then sometimes the Hooo would go into a low purring growl sound; very catlike. Sometimes, then I'd hear a fluttering sound, which I'd assumed was their wings, and the screeching.
I had a visitor one night and we were having a campfire, and the sound came and he was....quite impressed.
Anyway - maybe it was a Bigfoot and not the owls, after all....
LEB, they, like us, are omnivores. They will eat whatever is avaialable when necessary. There is a report of BF's taking down deer. Generally though, they're like black bears I think. Berries, veggies, etc... When those aren't available or a deer f*#ks up, I'd imagine a BF would chow down on it.
BF are reported to make distinctive noises. Owls can be intimidating, but not the same. You'd have to hear recordings to hear the difference. Talk to DMT, Munge, or the other Sonora PAss locals for details. They blow it off because they never get messed with, but they're out there.
You believe in Big Foot and you think gays are a problem? Pretty f*#ked up thinking on display here. And 'Interdimensionality' is really someone's serious response to the fact no one has actually seen a Big Foot? Really? Interdimensionality? Are you f*#king kidding me (I didn't bother reading the first post that far due to the realities of MVP). I'm amazed the Bush administration didn't come up with the same excuse for not finding WMD's in Iraq - you know, Saddam was keeping them in another dimension ready for use at a moment's notice.
And you want to talk about corrosive societal influences? I'd say the amalgamation of dark-ages thinking, contemporary mythology, and pseudo-science gobbledygook like this is way, way up near the top of the list. Another case where a little rationale thought goes a long, long friggin' way.
i have an uncle that managed a sawmill in redding in the 60's.....i remember him talking about these full 50 gal. oil drums that mysteriously ended up a 100 yds. away , on level ground , from their original location...there was no explanation as to how they mysteriously moved a 100 yds. and my uncle felt that sasquatch could have moved them.....he spent a lot of time in the wilderness scouting out timber sales and believed that there was such a beast.....as for my own personal encounters.....drinking big foot Ale has produced , at 9% , a humming sound and an interdimensional state of confusion while rocks fell around me.....
I believe the native american stuff way more
than western ridicule - can't actually "see"
electricity either (lighting is heat energy from
the rapid release of electrons) - there are many
mysteries - the fanatics who staff the mass movement
called consumerism will always shout down anything
that does not pertain to the exploitation of the earth
for material gain; earth religions were suppressed.
all the animals are of a higher order and we are all
part of a "family". what would sasquatch benefit by
dropping its mysterious cloak? extermination?
people are dangerous, they act as if western civilization
were the beginning and end of reality. all the western
schools teach is the limited scope needed to continue
or manage the rape of our planet, and the robotics of
mass conformity - anytime you challenege a pillar of
of consumerism (TV) you will be met with violent
opposition and they will never admit to being fanatics
because they are in the "eye" of the hysteria and cannot
even see it. only now, finally, we are beginning to
see westerners realize this in real numbers, so the
amount of exceptions or "mass movement dropouts"
Mimicry is a well known attribute of Squatch in the BF research world. Most commonly they imitate owls. I attended the 2006 BFRO trip to BC and was told lots of stories, the one I remember well is the guy whom observed a trio of Bigfoot descending through an open forested slope, hooting back and forth to each other like owls. I have heard twice of people reporting hearing semi trucks in the wilderness complete with jake brakes, as part of their bigfoot encounter.
But it's not the empirical observeables that intrigue me anymore about this topic.
It's the unexplainable stuff that has my interest.
The world was once thought to be flat.
Galalielo was deemed a heretic
I truly think that Sasquatch holds some cards for the theoretical physicists to play games with.
It's certainly way over my head whats going on out there in the woods at night.
LEB be careful what you wish for, it might not be what you want.
Ray, so now seeing electical currents and animals are roughly equivalent sensory exercises. Right, gotcha. And I'm a minion of the materialistic consumerism. Right, gotcha. Suppressed Earth religions? Check - I'm married to a member of the Colville Tribe, please, tell me all about it. Jesus, it's getting thick in this thread. MVP, and all it implies, is the name of the game folks - unless of course you're subscribing to the interdimensionality theory.
P.S. Galileo, and any of us, need only go out in the backyard on any clear night to confirm his theory. Invoking his name here is the true heresy given he is one of the founding fathers of modern science.
As far as intelligence goes obviously they are not building cities or even houses. They sleep in the open, as you will see next year when the documentary Adrian is working on is completed and released. I think caves are part of the picture too. They aren't very smart imho, its not logic and IQ which enable them to elude humans. It's their mastery of the unknown (to us) components of the natural world, I have previously refered to, that gives them their advantage.
I think in the past before firearms came to this continent, sightings and encounters were much more common.
I think observing and spooking humans is their biggest form of entertainment.
There is a native guy in maple ridge I have gone hiking with, he is in two of my videos. he has told me some really strange stuff, I believe him because whenever I go for a hike with him its total weirdness.
He has told me that he has gone for ten mile hikes and of course been followed or had a sighting over the course of hours. Upon his return home, his wife asked him "Why are you back so early ? You have only been gone an hour."
I am told it's called the "sometime place" their other world ...
if you were telepathic, or senior members of your "tribe" were, locating other individuals in a well disperesed population would not be impossible. This would assist with reproduction efforts.
Healy, don't confuse wierd sh#t with unexplainable sh#t. Some of the reports come from retired military snipers, hunters, biologists, and guides who, in their words, could not explain the "animal" they saw. It was not a man, but a large bipedal creature...
I don't doubt them. They have nothing to gain by lying.
Some of the BF freaks do though....
EDIT: Jaybro, Pagan is only half BF...he don't count.
The story is they enter a dormant state and retire to caves. Some remain conscious and act as sentries, there must be a rotation schedule to it.
Randy, my friend from maple ridge, he has given me a picture he took this spring which I have at home which where I am not this week. Anyways he has told me that the ones he has seen up close have horrible sores on their bodies.
I am sure it is less than an ideal life they lead. Imagine a shitty bivie that lasts all winter. They must cache food, they have been reports of that.
The plethora of BF tracks found continent wide cannot be dismissed. Some evidence is there, it's wether or not you choose to accept it.
I plug the remaining holes in the mystery with the Indian interpretation, which match my experiences.
Yah other people have told me stuff, some of it I beleive some of it I don't. Rendering hemselves invisible, yup thats definitely part of whats happened around me, no second hand tale there.
There are people who claim to be in telepathic contact with them, I have no interest in going that far, I'll settle for 2nd hand stories.
Here's another weird one. In his follow up about other encounters, he mentions a 'drunken' deer. This jives with a hunter story I've heard where they followed what appeared to be a large bipedal and then got disoriented and almost 'drugged' by an odor.
They speculated they may omit a defensive odor that is disorienting. Also follows my theory that the BF's like deer sometimes. He got pissed when the hunters took his 'kill'.
OK, I'll belittle myself now that I see I'm in good company.
Susan and I were bivied just above the circ#m-montane trail at the foot of the Shoestring Gl. Ape Canyon was about 2 miles due east across the Plains of Abraham. Ape Canyon was the site of a battle between a group of miners and a 'tribe' of Sasquatch in 1924. The miners claimed to have shot and killed one of the Sasquatch before retreating to their cabin for the night. During the night a large group of Sasquatch trundled boulders down upon the cabin and even tried to break into it.
"In 1950 a skier named Jim Carter was with a group of other men, but went off by himself to film a documentary. He was never seen again, despite a massive search. One of the search team members said he had a chilling feeling of being watched the entire time. Carter's ski tracks seemed to indicate that he took off at a very high speed, making tremendous jumps that no experienced skier would make unless he was frightened beyond reason or being pursued." http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Ape_Canyon/id/1915173
It was late summer or early fall, maybe '73. Without a tent there was no resisting the full moon boring its way into my medulla oblongata; I was wide awake. The fact that I was going to solo the Shoestring with my Clovis era tools contributed to my insomnia.
Around midnight I started hearing the sounds well described by Studly and Pcousar. I've spent a lot of time in the wild on a number of continents and I've never heard anything like this. It started about a mile or more to the south of us but came closer after each three to five minute interval. It was clearly following the trail as 'nobody' in their right mind would try to walk across the tortuous lava flow aptly named the Plains of Abraham. Susan was blissfully unaware sleeping the sleep of the just, thank heavens. I was almost as terrified of her awakening as I was of the approaching entity. Why she didn't I can't begin to fathom although it wasn't extremely loud, just unearthly primal. When it got within a few hundred yards I threw off my sleeping bag and held my ice tools in each hand ready to do battle. I was afraid to take a better position for fear of awakening Susan. When it got directly below us on the trail it could not have been more than 100' away and I was sure it could hear the deafening sound of my pulse pounding furiously against my eardrums. Then there was silence. Though there wasn't a breath of wind I was certain it had smelled us. I sat upright gripping the tools. I stared down the treed slope but couldn't see the trail because of a drop-off. It knew we were there and on some plane knew that I knew it was there. The silence screamed onwards.
After 15 minutes I think I allowed myself to recline but still clenched the tools. I guess I dozed off eventually but only just. About 0400 I decided it was safe to go climb. Yes, it was safe to go soloing! I never told Susan.
What is the relationship between interdimensional bigfoots and god for all you god-fearing folk here. Or between bigfoots and ufos? Aren't you a bit afraid bigfoot was made in god's image instead of us? What with god, bigfoot, ufos, aliens, and whatever other fantasies and conspiracies you folks seem to require it gets a bit tough to keep up with it all.
What's really weird is that people seem to always have a primal sense of being 'watched' before some encounters.
Weird...like a vibe.
In my 'bear' encounter I just felt like something big was lurking and needed to be chased away. The sounds it gave out were very unusual too. It sounded big and slightly pissed off as if to say, "Stop!!!".
Bears don't usually do that at night, Not black bears.
They're out there boys. Just give them a wide berth. That's all they want.
So let me get this straight - gay marriage is somehow bad, but bigfoots roaming the countryside having interdimensional sex is plain ole' okey dokey. And you think radical muslims have twisted thinking? Maybe you're just missing the parallels between the consequences and risks of disparate peoples just making sh#t up. I just love you guys.
Seems that if you wanted to prove the existence of a large ape like creature, then skeletal remains would be a straightforward way to convince people, and attract credible scientific research. DNA can be easily extracted from bone also.
What about finding some bigfoot POOP! A stool sample with DNA that is ape/human-like yet unique would get people and scientists excited. Poop shouldn't be that difficult to find right? Unless of course Bigfoot has learned a civilized way to deal with excrement, such as burying it in a hole at least 6 inches deep 200 feet away from any water source...
Just give some scientists something biological, and then you will have a nice story to amaze the world with...or just another hoax.
Cryptozoology is great! It's like religion and other beliefs - you can never disprove what is claimed. That doesn't mean it's true - the philosophers and scientists have a fancy Latin name for persons who jump to the conclusion that something is correct, merely because it hasn't and perhaps can't be disproven. Once in a long while it turns out the person was correct, but not very often.
I had a strange thing happen to our family while driving back from Mammoth on 395 near the 14 split. We had pulled off the road to take a pee break on the west side of 395 between the road and the aqueduct. The terrain there is rolling desert with creosote and dirt being about the only thing there. My then 6 y/o boy was taking a leak and my wife and I were standing next to the car looking to the east. My son finished his business and came running to us excited and asked if there were bears around here. I told him that there could be but most likely they would be up in the upper elevations. He then asked if the bears here walk "standing up" as he said. He said he had just seen a hairy gray bear walking about 100 feet from where he was peeing. I asked if it could have been a big jack rabbit and he looked at me like I was an idiot and said no it was walking daddy. I looked all over but didnt see squat. My son swears to this day he saw something hairy, dark gray, and walking upright. I believe he did se something but I am inclined to think it was one of those big jackrabbits but who knows?
healyJ worte: "Interdimensionality? Are you f*#king kidding me (I didn't bother reading the first post that far due to the realities of MVP). I'm amazed the Bush administration didn't come up with the same excuse for not finding WMD's in Iraq - you know, Saddam was keeping them in another dimension ready for use at a moment's notice."
How much Bigfoot scat has been found? They must die, have any remains been found? A more interesting question would be, are there any Grizzlies left in the the San Juan Mountains- that at least is within the realm of possibility.
I am done with The project, which proved to be utterly futile. There has been a net negative impact of all this in my life thats for sure. The obstacles to success were much greater than I anticipated. 3 weeks into the project in 2007, I was additionally saddled with a handicap in the form of a badly broken leg at the hands of a youth gang.
I failed to do what I set out to do which was getting clear video. I documented what I thought were the reasons why I could not do so. The money shot never happened.
All the hair samples got shipped to Dr. J Robert Alley at the Univeristy in Ketchikan Alaska. A few pieces went to Dr. John Bindernagle on Vancouver island.
I came away with an appreciation for what native North American Indians have to say about the matter and an understanding of what the basis may be for some of their cultural beliefs regarding the spirit world.
The few personal insights which I have shared here, are clearly at my expense in many ways.
I won't harass you today, blue. Just happened upon this thread and thought I'd point out the irony that while this thread is about Big Foot, Big Mouth has apparently returned. Interesting... Back into hiding. :)
There is a book called "The Long Walk" by Slavomir Rawicz, which described what seems to be a Yeti encounter. Rawicz escaped from a Soviet camp in Siberia in the 1940's, with several others, and they walked all the way to India to freedom.
An incredible read all on its own, a true adventure story. Only a page or so is devoted to the Yeti sighting, near the end of his journey. Rawicz had no reason to embellish his story; it was already thrilling enough. His authenticity, intelligence and resourcefulness are evident on every page, and he would have no reason to damage his credibility by fabricating such an episode.
There is much in the world which we don't understand. The wilderness is vast. (But, sadly, shrinking all the time.) And I have found Ape Cave in Mt. Saint Helen's very eerie...without knowing the story behind it until now. Definitely an odd vibe there.
OK, I'll fess up about one of my many bigfoot encounters that proves they are interdimensional creatures.
I was drinking at a bar in West Philly that served underaged college kids like myself. After consuming more than one beer and probably less than 20, I met this hot chick. It was kind of odd, there were no hot chicks before I began the evening's festivities. Well, this hot chick took me back to her lair at a place called Ursinus College, which seemed a long way from civilization.
When the light came up I noticed heavy breathing, more like snoring, and a foul odor lingered in the air. It was at this point I realized I had been taken to Ape Cave - East Coast style. I was right next to the hairy, sleeping beast. I did my best to slink out of the cave only to be thwarted by more sleeping creatures in the place called the dorm lounge. Fortunately, a side cave entrance, shaped like a double hung window was just to my side. I was able to climb through this portal to safety.
In retrospect, I realize that I passed through this interdimensional window, sometime between 2AM and 7AM, that bigfoots utilize to move around.
@skipt - Not bad, how are you? I've been super busy. Working a deal with Apple, who wants to license my images for MacOS, working on an adventure series for NBC/Discovery... Lots of exciting stuff going on. How's things in the great white north? :)
Oh yeah, to keep things on topic - Have you seen any sign of Big Foot, Chupacabra, Elvis or Mojo Risin up there, Skip? Should we add MJ to the list now too?
Ontheedge- yeah, I thought it was legit when I read it (in highschool) and when just two days ago I got on Amazon and read some of the reviews, there were multiple people pointing out incongruities that sounded very reasonable...for example, going without water for 10 days in the Gobi desert while covering great distances on foot...also the BBC checked into the story and debunked it. Rawicz was actually transferred to a prison in iran before he was released and apparently the BBC got his paperwork from the ruskies to prove it.
Now, it is possible that there were a series of superhuman events and a massive cover-up, but the whole 10 days without water thing...kinda made me think. Too bad though, great story.
On topic, there is a bigfoot thingy on the History Channel (monster quest)right now!
In the mid 90's a friend of mine worked for the BigFoot institute out of Hood River Ore. She did this for about three years- even had the 1-800-BIGFOOT number. People would call and they would try and chase down the story
Her conclusion was that there was something but they could not prove it and then the money ran out.
I am also skeptical with all of the cell phone cameras and video cameras that no one has come up with a picture- even a worthless fuzzy shot.
I think I still have a bigfoot T-shirt but htats as far as I go
Shortly after the Yurok tribe was granted nation status separate from the Hoopa I worked on a project performing site assessments throughout the new reservation along the Klamath River. All field trips were accompanied by a Yurok liaison; an older wonderful gentleman that would tell stories (wish I had written them all down) about the relationship between the river and the ocean Yuroks, the old trails, the first white settlers, on and on. I really felt privileged.
One day I decided to ask him about bigfoot –is that just another white man’s tale or is there some basis in Yurok mythology. He said no mythology. They exist. Then why haven’t “we” found evidence, scat, bones, any physical evidence? “That is because they exist in both this world and the spirit world.”
He went on “when I was a little boy the salmon ran up the river so thick you could practically run across the river on their backs. We would follow the runs up the river and into the creeks. My mom told me that once we reached (Yurok name for a rock formation) on Bluff Creek you stop. ‘Those fish are for the big people. We leave the big people alone, they leave us alone.’”
Later, because of my question, he took me to have lunch with a tribal elder and she told similar stories. Her husband, a local guide, said he has seen plenty of sign in the high Siskiyous – they both told me plenty over that lunch into the late afternoon…
Joe -so the Colville tribe does not have similar stories?
Spend most of a day at the SF Exploratorium in the visual and audio perception area and you may find that can’t believe all you see or hear. The brain filters as much or more than it receives – so how can one believe or disbelieve anything in absolutes?
Bummer about the Long Walk! I wondered about the Gobi Desert timeframe, but you know, it is so compelling it just pulls you in. So many of his details of the countryside, etc., seemed plausible. I was a little suspicious when he said he had had no further contact with any of the other survivors. Seems as if you had gone through such a harrowing experience together it would form a pretty tight bond. I wonder if anyone has tried to research the names of the other people he wrote about?
I do still think there could be Yeti and Bigfoot out there somewhere. Not really sold on the inter-dimensional aspect though. Where is Ed?
I've spent a lot of time hiking and sleeping in the woods around here. Lots of a1 prime bigfoot territory. Including the ape caves area. I've never seen any evidence of Bigfoot either sound, scat, footprints or anything else. I look for it too. Lots of other interesting things. For instance, once I peed on trail solo hiking into a remote climbing area. Next week I'm heading up the same trail, a bear had sh#t in that exact spot. I'm talking it's almost steaming it's so fresh, and a smell of rotting flesh still pervades the area. The smell was not the scat. I'm off to climb and don't stick around other than peering down the hill to see if I was in some bears spot. 2 weeks, same trail same spot, a small cougar (large bobcat?- Lynx?) had sh#t almost right on top of the now aging bear sh#t. Right on it as if it was a target. Not an accident. WTF is all that? I was just peeing, not marking anything. I believe that there are animal interactions which we are not aware of. The other wilderness trail I was walking regularly had a very similar thing happen, bear shit/cougar shit: right on the trail, this was within a meter of each other. So who knows whats going on with that. I thought I took a picture of that, but couldn't find it. I did show my buddies the spot about a month later, but the bear sh#t was way dried up, dessicated, broken down and almost unrecognizable while the Cougar sh#t was visible but white at that point.
I can't and won't discount those who have seen or heard evidence of Bigfoot. I have twice been "stalked" by a bear, if it could be called that, and once had the same thing happen with a small herd of deer and once with a boar in another country. Basically they circle your tent/sleeping location. The appear to be moving in to investigate at some points. Some unknown thing or reason wakes you up out of a dead sleep. It only happens when there is no moon out and it's damn eerie to wake up with all of your senses tingling but not be able to see or heard anything. You can't pin it on anything except a "feeling" that some strange and unnatural sh#t is happening and it's scary for sure. Yet it's real. You get out of your tent or bag. Stand dead still and quiet in the dark for what seems like an eternity, staring out at something, you know not what, except you are aware that some kind of animal - you think and are pretty sure, that you know to be not too far away and in the pitch dark is standing there as well staring right at you. You can FEEL it. Your hair is standing on end and you have plenty of time to reflect on the knowledge that the top of the food chain probably isn't you - but whatever is out there and you know is there, is invisible to your known senses. This goes on for quite sometime. You are eventually doubting if you are experiencing something real or making this sh#t up in your mind. Till you give up and go back to bed and hour or 2 into it and eventually get back to sleep. The next day you circle the camp in ever widening concentric circles looking for sign and see bear scat. Or perhaps bigfoot scat disguised as bear scat: who can say. Looks like Bear any way and it was eating berries if the slight purple color and seeds are a give away.
The deer happened before dawn, and I was awake to see them as light finally broke. The boar started snorting after about the 3rd trip around me.
On another occasion in the Wallawas, in waking up midnight or so, I "heard" some loud grunting and banging and slamming and crashing noises which seemed to come closer to me - not far from the woods near the clearing I was crashed at and sleeping peacefully till I was awoken. WTF? I was like, wishing I had a firearm but never carrying one in the woods as everything pretty much leaves you alone. Next day, a bear had left clear and obvious evidence of having rolled a big log over to scrape for grubs. Lots of claw and tear marks, digging in the ground you see the spacing of the claws and then know the size of the paw. The log was of such a size that I could not budge it at all. Yet in the night, it sure seemed louder and radically different than I would have imagined that sound of those actions (rolling a log and ripping the sh#t out of it for brunch) to be.
"inter-dimentional" is a concept of terminology
based on perspective (ours)
our species can only see a small fraction of the
electromagnetic spectrum (visible light) though
the spectrum includes frequencies ranging
in size from thousands of kilometers to a fraction
of the size of an atom.
our species has evolved to be able to move audio,
visual and text files, as data, from one point to
another, on frequencies we cannot see - full-on
movies, right to my tiny handset, through thin air.
yet we remain flabbergasted by the notion that
another species may have the ability to utilize/
manipulate frequencies that we cannot see,
as dictated by it's evolution - being part of it's
our species puts itself at "the high order" of
evolution - still we remain a "system" that has
failed to harmonize (adapt?) with our host
environment in a balanced and sustainable
way - while being surrounded by species who
have achieved this fundamental point in their
evolutionary curve, for thousands of years.
I am not willing to accept the existence of multiple dimensions or the paranormal, but I am willing to entertain the existence of aliens from other worlds.
If Bigfoot exists, the only way he could exist and not leave physical evidence is if he is able to leave the planet and clean up after himself. He'd have to take all his waste and dead with him.
Maybe BF is a space tourist who adheres to a strict Leave No Trace ethic? Perhaps visits to Earth are a way for his kind to get their kicks. Maybe his appearance is a disquise, or perhaps it is what he really looks like.
Think for a minute about what we would do if we could visit another planet inhabited by sentient beings. It would depend on our sense of ethics. Would you march up to a crowd of beings and say, "take me to your leader!"?
If you were of a scientific mind, you would not want your presence to affect the species you are studying. You'd like to observe the natural progression of your subjects. You'd hide and use all sorts of technology to avoid detection. Maybe you'd disquise yourself.
Climbing Dropout is now bmacd. I am ditching the lame username.
The most interesting development in the Sasquatch research field was the emergence last year of Scott Nelson, a retired U.S. Navy Crypto-Linguist. He has analyzed recordings made in the Sierras some years back and found that these recordings of Bigfoot voices match the Characteristics of a Human Language.
We have verified that these creatures use language, by the human definition of it. The months of hard work that we have put into the study of the Berry/Morehead Sierra tapes is finally coming to fruition. The analysis is finished, although I am still working on parts of the final write-up such as frequency count tables, morpheme lists, etc.
I believe that the study of these tapes will never (and should never) end. With the recognition and acceptance that these creatures do indeed speak and understand a complex language, a greater effort will be made to collect voice recordings and our analysis of the language will improve. Now that we have a precedent and techniques established for this study, this process will certainly become easier.
Scott Nelson, crypto Linguist.
This link is to an excellent internet radio interview Scott Nelson did this year. There are clips played back from the recordings and as well Scott is able to speak parts of the Bigfoot language as well. It's an 1.5 hour program but well worth listening to if you are interested in the subject. Even though he has broken out the structure of the language, the meaning of any of the words are unknown.
R. Scott Nelson is a retired U.S. Navy Crypto-Linguist with over 30 years experience in Foreign Language and Linguistics, including the Collection, Transcription, Analysis and Reporting of voice communications.
He is a two time graduate of the U.S. Navy Cryptologic Voice Transcription School (Russian and Spanish) and has logged thousands of hours of voice transcription in his target languages as well as in Persian. He is currently teaching Russian, Spanish, Persian, Philosophy and Comparative Religions at Wentworth College in Missouri.
This is the link to the original Sierra recordings website
Bigfoot's kinda interesting eh? Kinda stretches
the imagination, a "brain workout" - kinda like
goin' to the gym and cranking a few reps on the
bench, feels good.
Do I "believe" in Bigfoot?
Well, when I sit down at the dinner table, I believe
in the food in front of me (in cod we trust) and, got a
pretty good hunch I'll be getting up tomorrow, the
coffee'll taste good and my car will probably start.
But, how I love to read about radical things at the
edge of plausability. Makes the daily humdrum a little
better, a little more fun - just the sheer mystery of it all.
And the possiblility, however remote you may feel, that
somewhere out there is this amazing thing. Something
that defies the odds, and defies the deadly dreary
predictability of our pretentious concept of reality.
Belief is for when there is an absence of evidence.
In the case of Sasquatch, physical and imaging evidence exists. The issue is not whether one chooses to believe anything, but rather do you accept the evidence in place already.
A skeptic like Donini may possibly even have had an encounter already, but would have not been aware of it, or chosen not to acknowledge it. They aren't in your face, they are behind the tree, watching you. Lying down behind a log, or crawling around on all their belly, edging up to your campfire to get a better look at you and what food possibilities there may be for scavenging. Rummaging thru your pack at night while you are knocked out cold with the infra-sound they can emanate.
The sublte wet dog smell, the branch break, a low whistle, the hair rising on the back of your neck. A stealthy sasquatch encounter would not be noticed by most people.
The photo I would like to see is of how badly Donini pisses his pants the day he runs into one.
Havn't read Reinhold Messner's book, but it seems
he spent 11 years, off and on, looking for Yeti, saw
it once, and, according to what little I've read,
said "It dissapeared". That was in '86, so maybe
this has been "disproven" Yeti, depending on what
source you use, is considered similar to Bigfoot. (?)
BTW the complete title of Messner's book is
My Quest for Yeti: Confronting the Himalaya's
bmacd - Look, lots of folks want to believe in lots of things, but to claim there is any hard physical, visual, or auditory 'evidence' for the existence of bigfoot is simply not true. I'm all for folks believing in bigfoot. What I'm not all for is people latching on to all manner of [literally] fuzzy 'evidence' for their existence. That's out-of-control belief and personal investment desperately seeking and manufacturing validation.
Science is about developing a hypothesis and then testing it for validity - not deciding on the validity ahead of time and testing to prove it which is what's going on here. It's no different with the Loch Ness monster except that it's in a lake with a water volume of a mere 1.8 cubic miles completely incapable of supporting a minimum viable population (MVP) of any such creatures. Bigfoot would have continents of area, but the idea that the area around Mt. Hood or Mt. St. Helens could support an MVP of bigfoots without continuous bigfoot / human interaction and without pounds, if not tons, of physical / DNA evidence is so outlandish it defies belief. And on what basis or 'evidence' could you or any other human claim:
Some bigfoot have the ability to transcend geometric space, time and even probe into your mind.
Wouldn't that require having a long, literal face-to-face interaction where multiple observers (human, video, instrumentation) test any such assertion? This is where things just get outlandish and unbelievable.
Then there are probably 10 times that which go unreported.
But I am convinced there are many many more undetected encounters where the human was never aware of anything, as in Donini's case ... and I am sure as with many of the other well travelled climbers on this forum.
Once the proof is sewn up, and laid out, and that will be next year, people will come out of the woodwork with reports. The stigma will be gone.
I agree, the Sasquatch question is outlandish and unbelievable, and it feels that way even when I am having an encounter. I am not a scientist so I am free to interpret my experiences in a non empirical fashion. I know the invisibility factor is real. I have videoed the glowing eye signature a 100 feet in front of me, only to disappear and then have it's shadow being cast from behind me 5 feet away in an instant. To me that is a transcenscion of geometric space.
The crux of the issue, is that the essence of Sasquatch existence is unknown science, yet to be documented.
In the meanwhile there are thousands of footprints, casted and or filmed world wide. There has been DNA samples which test out to be almost human but not quite. The Patterson Gimlin film from '67 has not been dis-proven.
Look guys this would not be such a persistent mystery if there wasn't something going on of which we have absolutely no understanding.
To imply modern science today has all the answers, and therefore renders the Bigfoot question moot, is naive and essentially means you are saying there will be no scientific advancement in the future. And that is totally wrong.
Time to dismantle the Large Hadron Collider before anymore time and money is wasted on research into the model of the universe. Everything is known already ....
It's actually the Sasquatch phenomena itself, which represents a challenge that could spur the advancement of science.
If you guys read Messner's book, you'll see that he thinks the physical yeti is a species of Himalayan bear which has become entangled with lots of legend. Personally, I agree. Whether or not there is also a spiritual yeti, a kind of demonic figure, is a matter of debate. Even the Sherpas, especially the modern educated ones, are of divided opinion on that.
Rolwaling Valley, west of the Everest region where I spent time, is famous for them. I wandered
alone in the woods a lot there and never encountered anything unusual. My Sherpa friends joked that was because yeti don't like the smell of western women, only Sherpa women.
What I do know is that something attacked the ox of a friend of mine one night when I was not in the village and the two got into a terrific struggle while the family was praying and banging on pots and pans. It was pitch dark, no electricity or flashlights, and they were too afraid to go out. The next morning they found that their ox had been lifted over a 3 ft. wall and drug 1/4 of a mile down a path where they found it with it's stomach ripped open and a few of the choice organs taken out and presumably eaten.The tracks left behind looked a lot like a human but then so do bear tracks when the bear places his hind feet inside the front tracks, elongating them.
No yeti have been spotted in Rolwaling for quite a long time and I hypothesize that is because the Chinese have killed off so many bear and other wildlife on their side of the border. I believe yeti sporadically appeared in Nepal when they crossed over the passes from Tibet, as they were most frequently seen headed downhill during a snowstorm. Since they are nocturnal, they hardly are seen in fact.
Look, biologists spend their whole lives trying to discover evidence of a new species. When they do their discoveries are accepted on the basis of concrete, incontrovertible evidence - live or dead specimens, DNA samples tested and verified by multiple labs by expert geneticists, skeletal remains, scat, or one walking down mainstreet Estacada at 5pm Friday night. Short of that, track molds, bad videos, and worse audio recordings are never going to cut it - particularly not videos of 'glowing eye signature[s]'. I mean, exactly what does that represent in terms of its relationship to a bigfoot? Has someone made the case that bigfoots exhibit a GES? On what basis was that assertion made, and on what evidence?
And invisibility? Take metamaterials - they exhibit a form of 'invisibilty' at some freqencies, but they also possess physical properties which create the effect. No organism on Earth is capable of 'invisibility' based on physical properties. Are you asserting a bigfoot covered with hair, versus a visible-light metamaterial, can become invisible via some other means?
The inherent problem here is lack of even a shred of credible, incontrovertible, and verifiable evidence. I don't expect that to change.
Oh boy, I've had similar encounters and experiences in the wild, all I could explain without ever thinking of a bigfoot.
Peple are not necessarily smarter than animals, they just don't talk or have opposable thumbs to build things.
(My dog would look at my hands when he needed me to use them for something, like opening up a can of dog food or brushing him. Sometimes he'd even touch my hand with his nose and then go to what he wanted. Pretty funny. We had little problem communicating.)
Your pets ALWAYS know when you are coming home, when you are leaving, when you are happy, sad, mad, etc. No mystery there. Most people can do the same thing if they are quiet enough and use their head.
ANYTIME I've been in my normal day to day, and that ends and all is quiet with no electronic things around, I hear humming in my head, constantly. It's supposed to be the sound of the cosmos. Used to bug me, now it means all is OK.
Bears make all kinds of vocalizations, huffing, grunting, growling, hissing like a cat (scary)bawling like a calf, woofing, mumbling, you name it, they can talk.
Ditto for Ravens. (Ever heard them make that popping sound?)
Night birds make the freakiest noises, Heron's in particular sound like banshees. Makes my hair stand up on end.
Screech owl fledglings are a hoot. Bitchin their parents out to no end.
I've heard song birds have dreams and sing in the middle of the night. I think it was a Cassins finch on one occasion, but the song was garbled up, like a person talking in their sleep. Wonderous.
Ever heard rabbits fight? I broke up a bloody battle between two male cottontails once, the sounds they were making led me to investigate, I bout laughed out loud when I saw these too locked in mortal combat, screeching, growling, panting and seriously trying to kill each other.
I was on my mare, and without her to wade into them, I wouldn't have had the nerve to interfere and she wasn't too keen on it either! Then she realized they were "just bunnies", looked down at them, pinned her ears and lowered her head to bite or nip because they weren't stopping with her hovering over them. They saw us at the last minute and split up just in time. There was blood and fur all over! Fond memory.
Oh, bear make NO noise unless they are panicked and running. Big soft feet as opposed to hard hooves, Deer are the ones that break sticks and birds scratching in the undergrowth make the most noise of all.
I've had bear walk right past me and I never heard a thing. Not to mention lay down next to me at night, smell my face and generally scare the sh#t out of me. (Duck Lake, I rolled over in my sleep up against something large, warm and furry that then just disappeared.)
I had a bear come up to my campfire and sit and share and I never heard him. Bout fell outta my chair when I saw him across the fire, like a ghost in the night. Scared him too, but he didn't leave until I told him too. (Lundy Canyon)
I'm not sayin I don't believe in Bigfoot and Yeti, just that everything I've read here can be explained by normal wild animals/birds just doing their thing.
I couldn't get the OP's youtube videos to load. Hum.
edited to add for Jan;
Cats are inordinately strong for their size. Watched my 8 pound housecat drag a large jackrabbit down a mile long driveway once. The thing was a fair bit bigger than him, might have weighed the same though.
He was dragging it like a lion between his legs, stopping to rest every so often, he'd just lay down on top of it and pant. Then, when he got it to he barn, he proceeded to jump/climb up to the top of the hay pile with it to eat it. That's when I finally interjected, praised the heck out of him, and took the rabbit away. Leopards drag gazelle into trees.
Wouldn't be no thing for a snow leopard to drag a good sized livestock over a wall.
Yes I know about meta materials invisibility. The next progression would be to bend the path of a photon in a fashion similar to gravitational lensing, but at a micro, not solar level, using an energy field as opposed to a meta material. I am sure that leading edge photonics research is working on photon control using some sort of electro-magetic system. In fact photonics is one of the hottest research areas going right now I hear.
Okay moving on to one of my experiences, during one of these weird invisible encounters in 2007 what happened is I can hear heavy footsteps in the gravel, very near, inside a five foot radius of me, in my campsite. I see nothing yet can hear something.
September 2009 hiking in a provincial park with my native friend, for a good 4 hours we saw nothing, expect for a few moments I saw what I can only describe as a shadow, very broad and very tall shadow, easily 12 foot tall, in front of me moving away very quickly. During this 4 hour period we were subject to rocks, small ones tossed near us but not at us. We see nothing and hear no movement in the underbrush, but we do get the wet dog smell on occasion. So an unseen Sasquatch is paralleling us, moving thru the bush without disturbing so much as a twig. Other people are in the area and none of this rock throwing is happening to them.
So there is invisibility with geometric continuity in the first instance cited, and invisibility without geometric continuity in the second instance. what ever it is is either passing through underbrush like it is not there or changing locations with out covering any distance in between rock throws. Ya I don't get it nor have an explanation for it.
This does get to the point were just relaying my experiences and conjectures are totally futile. It is unbelievable, even to me. Yet I could take anyone of you with me to these places and sh#t would happen.
I would be the very least likely person to get a visual in both cases because I am also holding a video camera in my hands. It's clear the very last thing Sasquatch want is to be photographed or shot on video.
Is this Sasquatch invisibility achieved using an energy field, shaped in a cylinder which bends light around the creature or allows it to pass thru undisturbed or its an effect achieved by harnessing another dimension I have no idea other than I think whatever the mechanism, there is possibly an electrical component to the process. Flesh and blood creatures generating a serious electrical charge is already documented in the eletric eel.
Obviously Bigfoot is not just another mammal. If it was, the proof would have been in 200 years ago. This is exactly the point I am making and what I find so intriguing about the whole situation. We are not dealing with JUST another mammal .... yet this creature is real and does exist sufficiently to be observed by many people. But thwarts us through the absence of any major empirical evidence. Its so intriguing for those two reasons, especially if you are one whom has had a sighting or encounter. For everyone else it's utter nonsense.
I am not claiming I have proved anything either, I am just being honest with you about giving it a shot as an amateur, who foolishly thought I'd get the money shot.
Jan, the eviscerated cattle or deer, yes I have heard of that many times before. Didn't take the whole body or eat the meat we would consider essential food. To me that says these creatures can subsist on a whole lot less food than we think they need. Often just the liver is taken.
"I see nothing yet can hear something."
"I saw what I can only describe as a shadow"
"We see nothing and hear no movement in the underbrush, but we do get the wet dog smell on occasion."
These statements recount various experiences, none of which provide enough data to support the following conclusion:
"So an unseen Sasquatch is paralleling us..."
Why not an unseen lowland Gorilla? Or an unseen human? Or an unseen Alien fresh out of a wormhole? On what basis could you possible support the conclusion above? None that I can see.
"I could take anyone of you with me to these places and sh#t would happen."
Sh#t might happen, but from the sound of it, none of it would support a conclusion bigfoot is involved.
"It's clear the very last thing Sasquatch want is to be photographed or shot on video."
Tooth Fairies are equally videophobic in most childrens' bedrooms.
"Is this Sasquatch invisibility achieved using..."
Wait! None of the above statements or experiences support the existence of sasquatch or invisibility let alone a 'sasquatch invisibility'.
"Obviously Bigfoot is not just another mammal."
"...yet this creature is real and does exist."
No, nothing you presented represents even vaguely credible evidence suggesting, let alone proving, bigfoot exists. What your statements throughout this post do support is the conclusion all this 'evidence' is being presented to validate your very strong belief that bigfoot exists. None of it represents credible data that would support any of the conclusions you're leaping to - but then you're leaping to the conclusions you started with, not to ones you are trying to arrive at.
Okay so if you are invisible, the problem is you cannot see because no light is reaching your eyes, if it did your eyes would be visible to an outside observer. What is needed is one or two holes in your "cylinder of invisibility" to permit light to reach your eyes thus enabling you to see.
In creating this breach in the Sasquatches optical defense system what the bigfoot experiencer sees is two glowing eye shaped objects. It appears the eyes are emmitting light. This is not the case, it is my contention the glow is a signature of the electrical nature of the mechanism responsible for the invisibility. Photons penetrate the protected space, but we see "fabric" of the "sheild". Or is this glowing breach a hole in the barrier which divides dimensions ?
I dont think its well known, this "glowing eyes" of Bigfoot phenomena but within the BF research world its somewhat common knowledge.
Hence the glowing eye signature term I used earlier. See the below linked video I shot using GEN III night vision of this GES phenomena. Personally I was shocked when I found out the glowing eyes had no body visible. We had seen the glowing eyes several times before at night, but never assumed there was invisibility in play as well.
From the video: "Soon we became surronded by numerous Sasquatch."
This is exactly the kind of statement that destroys credibility. After watching the video 'evidence' presented in that link (if undoctored), the only conclusion one could ever make is that you observed some sort of visual phenomena involving spots of visible light. No other conclusions are supportable from what I saw; certainly not the conclusion presented in the statement above. The leap to Sasquatch Eyes (btw, could be a great band name) is breathlessly grandiose and comparable in scale to the claims of religous miracles.
Well I forgot to mention the tracks we also found, the broken and twisted tree signs. The whooping and other sounds heard in the same area characteristic of Sasquatch.
And when I get home I will post the bigfoot picture my friend took in May of this year at this very same area where the rock throwing occured. I don not have it on this laptop here with me now
But Points well taken, it is possible there are other entities involved of which even less is known which like to throw rocks at some people. Even if you did document the Sasquatch transitioning to invisible on video, well that would not be well recieved as evidence either.
"...the tracks we also found, the broken and twisted tree signs. The whooping and other sounds heard in the same area characteristic of Sasquatch"
Wait! How can anything be "characteristic of Sasquatch" when no Sasquatch has ever been available for study to determine what might be charateristic of one. It's this continual cart-before-the-horse logic and leaping backwards conclusions which is the credibility problem.
"The reality we can percieve may not be the only one."
True enough, there maybe numerous 'rolled up' dimensions we can't perceive. But, until we figure out how to verify that they exist or not, all we can do is present conjecture no matter how much we want to believe those additional dimensions exist. It's the same with bigfoot; until incontrovertible evidence is presented for its existence, all you guys would be way better served by not presenting beliefs as forgone conclusions.
"There are plenty of people out there to independently supply similar information and experiences... "
I have no doubt of that. The problem, however, is that none of the information or experiences support the conclusion that any of you "experienced Sasquatch". What it does support is that a bunch of you who believe in Sasquatch experienced something you can't explain. The twin facts of unexplainable phenomena and a belief in Sasquatch do not, unfortunately, by themselves support the leap to one's existence.
Yep, it's a photo of a footprint. But without more data that's really all you can say about it.
Come on! The idea that a viable population of bipedal mammals bigger than us could somehow elude us for the entire twentieth century is ridiculous. The idea a viable population of bipedal mammals bigger than us could generate and project a non-physical invisibility field is ludicrous. And the idea a viable population of bipedal mammals bigger than us - invisible or not - didn't leave pounds or tons of incontrovertible DNA evidence verifiable across continents over the past century simply defies basic logic and common sense.
Look, I'm not suggesting you should stop believing in Sasquatch, but what I am suggesting is that you stop confusing belief with fact. Belief requires faith; facts require evidence. Where all you bigfoot/ghost/ufo guys continually go wrong and loose credibility is when you fail to avoid contaminating your evidence with your faith.
RE: "Look, I'm not suggesting you should stop believing in Sasquatch"
thanks for the permisson to think as one will, healye.
I am certain many are relieved by your generosity.
A fine example of a fanatic at work, supressing ideas
and obvious indicators of an interesting mystery.
Other documented eye witness
accounts on two continents.
Not, as healye would like to believe, proof,
but interesting and somewhat unexplained
indications of a mystery.
A mystery he clearly finds intolerable.
And instead of allowing this thread to function
as data collection, he has seen fit to railroad it
into a monologue of suppression, and the denial
even of simple unexplained data.
The concept of proof was brought by him, for
the sole purpose of denying it, and his rapid
fire attack was designed to destabilize the collection
of relevant information.
So, healye - try this, if you are so convinced that
this phenomena does not exist, I submit you venture
out into the most well documented "named places"* in
BC, for instance, and bring a substantial kit for 5 nights
of deep field ops. Stay "in the zone" for 5 nights alone
and experience the beauty of nature, all by yourself,
and show us for real that you know this mystery,
Sasquatch, does not exist.
You are brave behind a keyboard, healye, so man up
and hit the trail, or are you afraid, after all...?
I call your bluff, healye.
I think there is no way
you can suck it up and
do that for even two nights.
I thought of this too, but the Sherpas told me they stay far away from human habitation. Even when you encounter them in the wild they retreat. Another Sherpa friend of mine with his parents and a brother, scared a snow leopard off one of their sheep that the leopard had killed and then carried the sheep carcass home with them.The snow leopard stalked them for awhile, but never attacked and would not go below a certain altitude. The other friend's ox's neck was broken but not punctured. Leopards evidently sufficate their prey and/or puncture the arteries and drink the blood.
2) When Hillary came to Rolwaling looking for yeti, he was sold the skin of a Himalayan blue bear which was identified as a yeti. Blue bears are known for walking upright on their hind feet by the way.
3) Hillary also discovered a wandering Hindu ascetic walking in snow barefoot at 15,000 ft. and a porter whose big toe was deformed and looked like an opposable thumb.
4) Shipton was known to be a practical joker.
5) Foul smells are associated with yeti, but then bears smell pretty bad too.
6) Messner felt the yeti was a Himalayan black or brown bear (I'll have to look it up). In Tibetan it's call Dremo. He also said that Muslims of the Hindu Kush were quite clear that the animal he described was a bear, since they had no yeti legends.
7) I would always be careful about what Sherpas say about wildlife. They're not hunters and don't know much about it. It took me six months to identify two animals I saw once in Rolwaling that looked like Siamese cats. Turned out they were Himalayan yellow throated martins.
All the Sherpas wanted to know was which side of the river were they on. When I told them, they pulled up the log bridge to try to keep them on the other side, away from the village. In fact, they're the size of small dogs and quite harmless.
Looks like the OPer has been hypnotized into another trance by Big Foot as he has not posted in 2 days. I wonder if the Sasquash experiment with humans like the Aliens do? The worst part is that neither of them write or call, they leave you feeling so used! And sore….
thanks for the permisson to think as one will, healye. I am certain many are relieved by your generosity.
A fine example of a fanatic at work, supressing ideas and obvious indicators of an interesting mystery.
Au contraire - I'm all about ideas! It's bad interpretations of data and even worse conclusions parading as pseudo-science I have a problem with.
A mystery he clearly finds intolerable.
Ray, I love a good mystery - hell, the universe is a mystery, String Theory is a mystery. Clearly it's you, the OP, and other monster, ghost, and alien mystery afficianodos who cannot tolerate the yawning evidentiary chasm between the dubiousness of the 'data' and the bold assertion bigfoot exists.
The concept of proof was brought by him, for the sole purpose of denying it...
Huh? Science brought the concept and burden of proof, not me. I'm simply attempting to point out that nothing about the sum total of a hundred years of 'evidence' supports the conclusion and assertion that bigfoot exists.
I think there is no way you can suck it up and do that for even two nights
Look, I live in what's claimed to be a hotbed of bigfoot encounters. I climb in the heart of the rugged Columbia River Gorge within a triangle formed by Mt. Hood, Mt. St. Helens, and Mt. Adams. It's a mere stone's throw from the Pacific Crest trail and a place where Mountain Goats, Bears, Bobcats, Cougars, Deer, whole herds of Elk, and all manner of other creatures have always sauntered down deep, well-worn tracks to access a slough and islands on the the Columbia River which lays at the base of our cliff. They do so on a regular seasonal basis directly under and in plain sight of us while we're climbing. I've spent weeks of whole nights replacing anchors out there when the heat was just too much for doing it during the day. Credible bigfoot sightings or indicators to date? Zero. I also monitor the Peregrines out there and work with a WDFW Raptor biologist who has ranged deep into bigfoot country on a daily basis for forty years. Credible bigfoot sightings and indicators by him? Zero.
Faith is neither data nor evidence and the leaping conclusions and assertions bigfoot exists are ones of belief, not science. Again, I'm all for mysteries, but not assertions of fact when no evidence supports them. If anything, it's folks like you who seem intent on killing a good mystery by asserting that unexplained phenomena are not a mystery at all, but are instead 'evidence' of bigfoot.
I had an unusual "invisible eyes" kind of thing happen once to me. I spend a lot of time alone in bigfoot country, like I say above (well, less now cause I'm more focused on climbing). I was once in the Columbia River Gorge at a secret hotsprings. This was about 25-30 years ago, prime bigfoot country for sure. I was so relaxed and content in the hot water, all alone: salmon were 30 feet away jumping up the 10' high waterfall of the nearby stream. Watching the big 2' long Chinook salmon jump 5 times their length through the air is a remarkable natural event, and I was contentedly watching them do this as the sun dipped below the horizon. It got dark fast and I had about a mile of faint, barely passable trail to hike out in the woods. No headlamp. It's amazing how many times I've wound up in the dark in strange and dangerous places without one....anyway. Soon, it's pitch dark. No moon, no light except some faint stars. I slowly start picking my way through the forest and noticed that there are what appears to be green glowing phosphoresence light floating in the air. I have not smoked anything nor drank anything. They were floating, swear to God. In the air.
This, I saw with my own eyes. FACT!
In short order, as I try and make my way back, I am unable to walk upright as I keep hitting crap like branches and losing the trail and slowly and painfully backtracking. This is not a place to be losing the trail btw. You are never more alone than when you are behind the 8 ball all alone in the woods at a time or place you shouldn't be alone or without equipment. (it's a real "alive" feeling though!) So I finally drop to my hands and knees to crawl out, thinking I could feel with my hands where the compressed dirt and less vegetation of the trail is....within a few seconds my hand had actually touched one of the floating green lights....I recoiled in immediate horror and fear as it was soft, spongy, moving .... AND ALIVE! It moved in fear and horror at my touch as well (OK, that's what I was thinking anyway). Soon my quest to get out of the woods was relegated to backseat status as I groped blindly around on the ground and explore my new found green glowing friends. I want to learn first of all if they will hurt me. They don't, and I act in kind.
I soon learn that they were some sort of grubs. Hundreds of them. I tried to gather some up to use as a make shift green lantern, but they were more of a pain to carry for the light they provided so I gently put them to the side of the trail and continued on, brushing the odd few on the trail to the side so I wouldn't crush them on my journey.
In the ensuing years, I have been on that exact trail and tried to hit it at dark (with a light to make the hike less painful) and looked for my friends many many times...and have never seen them again. I must have caught the larvae stage (the immature stages of an insect species that metamorphosis's) just right, perhaps this is a single night each year event. I was there for this single moment in time, a special and rare event which I alone may have witnessed. Who can say for sure.
Now, I've seen a lot of strange sh#t in the woods, I'm not saying that everything is known as the more time you are out there the more you KNOW that isn't the case: but sometimes further exploration gets a rational explanation not apparent at first. I'm not suggesting that anyone's experience isn't real, for they are, as was the floating in air green phosphorescence for me.
I have also been to the valley in Nepal where the last known Yeti attack occurred on a young girl. The Sherpas believe that attack is real. There was a real attack of some sort. I have discussed this attack over tea with folks who were there. Yet, no one really saw a "Yeti" once you pin them down. They "heard" things, they "saw" results.....I have suspicions that there are explanations which would make sense to us for the same reason Jan so capably explains above. Reasons and explanations which would not have anything to do with a hairy ape like being. The most spectacular thing I saw was the Nepal national bird, a Impeyen pheasant that was a shockingly bright neon blue and green. I was unable to get a picture that looks unlike branches and brush despite clearly seeing it with my own eyes and I stalked it for quite some time. Here's someone elses picture off the internet.
It looked better in person.
But I am open to the fact that bigfoot or aliens exist, and that they may be in a totally different physically world than our senses can experience. I'd like to see the posters on this thread "continue allowing this thread to function as data collection" as Ray suggests.
as data collection,
Himalayan black bears can walk on their hind feet easily. They also will kill animals by breaking their necks. They would likely prefer certain parts due to the fact that meat is not their food of choice. They are aggressive towards humans.
Snow leapords will attack livestock from what I have heard. They can do amazing things with their grace.
Cougars follow humans all the time. If you hike enough in the snow this becomes obvious.
Many animals will bed down with you to avoid being attacked, as the attackers don't like human smells. Amost every night I've spent outside I've heard noises. Many of them weird noises, I used to think this may have been bigfoot till I learned more about animals and the sounds they make.
Smells, many plants stink, many animals stink. Fungus stinks and is everywhere.
Fungus can glow in the dark. Fungus is everywhere.
Animals make weird noises. Trees and bushes make wierd noises.
Oh and Squirrals will throw stuff at you. I've seen it done and had it happen. I'm sure others here have seen this happen too. It is normal behavior for them.
Off topic, but as bigfoot has been seen in this drainage above Estacada area in Oregon multiple times by multiple witnesses perhaps as much or more as anywhere in the US......
In 1967, my family was living further down the Clackamas River drainage next to the river in the Fish Creek campground. That is not to say we were homeless, for in fact we were loved and we did have a home which was small, portable, and had canvas roof and walls. We were in between wooden houses lets say. One day, my brothers and I were spending the day hiking up a small creek which fed into the Clackamas. Remember, this is before God invented gameboys or any electronic devices (well, anything that we could afford anyway). and this is what boys, who are genetically bred to be budding naturalists, do. Daily. Or fish. We're way the hell up the creek when one of us had the good fortune to spot a Red Frog. As we had done what I later determined to be a dangerous free solo to get here, (if our mom only knew) we may have been the first humans to ever stand there. Now, even young or in the 5th grade like I was, we all knew that there were no frogs known to exist in the North American continent which were bright Red in color, and this one was totally and 100 percent bright red. We knew of the poisonous bright red ones in the Amazon. With some trepidation as this wasn't like any of the hundreds of common Leopard frogs we'd caught before, and knowing the real possibility that it may be deadly poisonous and immediately kill whomever just touched it first, there was a short pause before the game was on and in short order the frog was captured for closer examination. Therein lies the crux of the issue. I wanted to haul the poor hapless creature back to civilization and share the discovery with the world. Who knew what other new secrets or knowledge this new discovery would unveil once it was studied by scientists? My older brother, then a 6th grader, said NO. The frog may be one of only a few that only exist in that very location where we are standing, we had no way to determine if it was true he suggested. If we remove it from it's natural habitat, we may disrupt the space time continuum - or something along those lines, wherein the only breeding pair may not be able to breed any more red frogs ever. Our removal may exterminate a budding new species. At the end of the day, after a long heated discussion where we both pitched out views more than once, his view won for this issue and the frog was left in situ. Red Frogs as a species (I'm excluding the Northern Red-legged Frog which is native to the West Coast, and in fact, this may have only been a genetic variation that was only much redder than other Red-legs) have not been found in the North American continent yet, although there are a few of us who know for a fact otherwise. However, my point is that it shows a basic difference in my brother and I that exists to this day. I wanted to share the frogs discovery with the world for the benefit of all, he didn't. It further examines the idea that there is possibly an entirely new species, living nearly right under the noses of a million people.
Jut last month I asked my older brother, who is a biologist and does that work for a living, if he remembered the Red Frog. He said that he absolutely still does, and in between gigs, had gone back solo into the deep woods to the creek where we had found it, without navigating the class 5 cliff solo of course (nobody is that stupid unless you're a kid) to search for the creature to no avail. He has looked either for a description in a scientific journal or for the species itself, all of his life and seen no mention of any such thing. Again, he works outside as a biologist as a career and is more of an outdoorsman than anyone I know. Even his free time or when he is layed off is close to exclusively filled with backpacking and long cross country skiing trips.
He has seen no evidence of bigfoot that I know of either.
There is lots of varition in the Northern red legged frog. That would be a genetic trait that doesn't occur as much because the red ones are breeding with more brownish ones. You could probably breed some really red ones if you wanted to in captivity.
I think Jan is on to something. Think about it, Jan is wandering around and the Sherpas say Yetis don't like her. There can only be one reason: they are gay. That would explain why there are so few. I mean, if I was a yeti and saw Jan, I would mosey on over and throw a few lines her way.
Like "once you've gone hairy, all others are scary" or "you know what bigfeet mean?".
It would also explain why they are so light footed. Maybe a little too much air in their Nikes?
Exactly, and it's not about science unless and until you actually adopt and employ scientific methods (from Wikipedia).
Scientific method refers to a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge. To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning. A scientific method consists of the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses.
Although procedures vary from one field of inquiry to another, identifiable features distinguish scientific inquiry from other methodologies of knowledge. Scientific researchers propose hypotheses as explanations of phenomena, and design experimental studies to test these hypotheses. These steps must be repeatable in order to dependably predict any future results. Theories that encompass wider domains of inquiry may bind many independently-derived hypotheses together in a coherent, supportive structure. This in turn may help form new hypotheses or place groups of hypotheses into context.
Among other facets shared by the various fields of inquiry is the conviction that the process be objective to reduce biased interpretations of the results. Another basic expectation is to document, archive and share all data and methodology so they are available for careful scrutiny by other scientists, thereby allowing other researchers the opportunity to verify results by attempting to reproduce them. This practice, called full disclosure, also allows statistical measures of the reliability of these data to be established.
P.S. Just posted a link to this thread over on CascadeClimbers.com which is the climbing forum for Sasquatch country. The members of that forum have ranged over every part of the PNW and B.C.
“The old native american folklore is probably one of the most interesting things to me.”
Exactly. I had expected our tribal liaison to say it was a bunch of white man hooey. Instead it was discussed as accepted fact. Now they did have disparaging remarks for some of the supposed evidence and “researchers” that visit the res…but that is a longer story.
Embrace the mysteries. For example, that feeling one gets that they are being watched. Sometimes you are. I have and I know others have too. For example a friend recently, Sunday morning walking the yard with his mug of coffee gets That feeling and the hair on the back of his neck rises, turns to his left and a mountain lion crouched watching him from about 50 ft away…now physically explain to me how he felt the presence of that animal before he saw it? (he saw it without seeing it eventually the brain processed the observation w/o saying "BIG CAT!"– perhaps, perhaps not; that part of the yard is not visible from the porch).
Embrace the mysteries – why do we humans seem to require or need absolutes? Start with “what is consciousness?” and work forward. Good luck with that. I don’t care whether Bigfoot exists or not, but I do like the remote possibility.
this is the Sasquatch image I promised to post that was taken by my native friend this May in the area we had all the rocks tossed at us. A relatively small Bigfoot, 6 or 7 foot tall peeking out from behind the stump
I brightened the photo which is why it is so washed out. He has a very poor camera unfortunately.
This second image I am not sure, but I believe this may be the himilayas and obviously from a long time ago Judging by the wooden ice axe. A Shipton image maybe.
The following 3 are frames from the Patterson Gimlin film shot in the late 60's
A size comparison
and the photo up loader has now packed it in on me but I have a few more here
Clearly these photos are not all of the same thing.
The top one has a human face with a prominent nose and chin. It looks to have straight cut bangs and mutton shop whiskers. Or else part of a fuzzy mask has been square cut. I say a male human in a fuzzy suit.
The second photo looks to be yeti prints from the Himalaya. I've never seen this particular photo before but it looks quite fake to me. No creature walks with one foot ahead of the other in an exact straight line. This is a practical joke, not a yeti footprint.
The third photo looks to be a human in a fuzzy suit. It even looks like it has a belt around the waist and the face is clean shaven surrounded by a hood.
The fourth photo is unnatural also. The bottom of the left foot is a flat piece of white leather or plastic that has been sewed onto an ape suit. The sole has been curled up onto the foot before being attached.
The last photo could be a composite of two or three photos or a guy wearing a fur piece with head attached on top of his head.
It looks like a guy with the right side of his face exposed and looking rightward.
You can also look above the white cheek and nose and see what looks like a cat like figure/maybe dog/maybe lesser panda with two eyes, round ears and nose.
From another view, it looks like the guy is looking right, his head is cocked and there is an animal with large round ears and close together beedy eyes and a long nose (fox.lemur?), plus an arm reaching around to grasp the man's face.
The really interesting question is who has a vested interest in dressing up like an ape and going through the woods. Drug smugglers? Special Forces or Marine Corps recon practicing stalking and avoidance? Native Americans trying to keep white interlopers off of their land? Pure Pranksters from the city? Many possibilities.
to clear up any confusion re: my comment on
"Messner being wrong".
He took the subject as credible to the extent
he spent time in the field, over the span of 11 years looking.
Please remember who we're talking about here.
How was he wrong about that?
Yes, he felt it was/is a rare and endagered type of Asiatic
black bear - a fascinating creature.
Still, there have been well funded expeditions composed of
informed and educated people, who have gone to the region
and have continued the search for the Yeit of myth/legend.
Clearly, they think its a more credible subject than "santa clause".
And, they have continued to find bits and pieces of interesting
evidence. Not proof, not with the technology of today.
But how about the technology of tomorrow?
Look at how our concepts of things have changed in the
last 50 years...pretty staggering.
Pretty sure, if I went back to 1964, walked up to my old
man while he was trying to kick start his Duo Glide, and
told him what I would be doing with a small black box
that's fits in the palm of my hand (a computer called a
G! smartphone) he would have looked at me with his
bright blue eyes and said "bullshit!".
BC has pretty much any kind of climate you can think of. The province is huge - stretching 750 miles N-S and 500 miles E-W. The climate in the SW is pretty much identical to the climate in NW Washington -- just think of Seattle -- while up in the North east your spit freezes before it hits the ground in the winter.
There is temperate rainforest in the Southwest, big mountains in many ranges, a variety of deserts, farmland, ranchland, vineyards, fruit orchards... All kinds of large animals live there. Several kinds of bears, moose, elk, deer, caribou. Wolves and coyotes. Various cats including mountain lions, lynx, bobcats... Plus of course hundreds of kinds of smaller mammals. None of them flies down to Phoenix for the winter, and all of them manage to find plenty of food.
Of course, Canadians are so deluded they think their heathcare system is good and their economy sound, so trusting one of them (i.e. me) to know anything about their own climate and geography is probably silly.
Just go on assuming it's all arctic wasteland, barren of food and uninhabitable except for a few days in late July.
Coastal BC is a very survivable habitat. Near the ocean the snow rarely stay for more than a few days. The intertidal zone is rich in shellfish.
Albert Ostman described Sasquatch sleeping under blankets woven from moss and bark after returning from his epic "Kidnapped by bigfoot" experience in 1924 While on a prospecting trip in Bute Inlet BC. The tale is a good adventure read and can be found under the "classics" section on http://www.bigfootencounters.com/ - his observations have proven to be not unique relative to reports that come in to this very day...
Dr Robert Allley, an athropologist at the Univeristy in Ketchikan Alaska, whom has just received my entire bigfoot hair sample collection, wrote an excellent book about Sasquatch encounters along the Alaskan coast, the title is "Raincoast Sasquatch"
If the westcoast Indians were able to survive for centuries along the coast here, it's no stretch in my mind that a Sasquatch could as well.
Dr Alley called me today to let me know the samples are going to California when he is done with them, to be further analyzed by Dave Paulides, a forensic detective with access to a DNA lab down there in California near Humbolt county I think. Paulides has authored 2 books on Sasquatch, "The Hoopa Project" and more recently "Tribal Bigfoot"
This is the video of the, 7 foot high chain link fence topped by barb wire where I retrieved the hairs from in January of 2007. The gravel slope beyond yielded the tracks which are also shown in the video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGbgUMIodlM
I could return to this same spot in Sechelt, BC, and easily harvest more samples this winter. I'll wait for the assessment results before I do though.
The multiple additional dimensions argument, comprising a separate or alternate, reality set from ours could be used to explain away every hole in the sieve of the Sasquatch mystery.
Good point. However, don't forget the commercial angle to the yeti. Every expedition means more dollars for the Sherpas. They have a vested interest in keeping the legend going. Sasquatch legendeers less so at this point in time.
One thing not discussed on this thread but on another, is the idea that these stories could have a historical basis. Neanderthal lived in Europe until 27,000 years ago and there was a lot of variety among modern humans in China also. Then there's the just discovered "hobbits" of Indonesia - Homo floresiensis, and finally, Kennewick man in Oregon - a Caucasian skeleton tested at 11,000 years ago.
Could not the stories of Sasquatch have originated with invasions of small groups of hairy and light colored Caucasians similar to Kennewick man, coming down the coast from the Bering Strait? The Ainu of eastern Siberia and northern Japan fit that description quite well and many think that's who the Kennewick man was.
Since an arrow head was found between his ribs, we can conclude Kennewick wasn't welcomed by the locals. The fact that Sasquatch rumors are along the coast and don't go further south than California, would be consistent with migrations from Alaska southward. Also, given the wet climate and dense forests where they're said to be, fossils would be extremely rare.
Later, after all Caucasian invaders had been wiped out, the legend of their hairiness, bad smells, and strength compared to Native Americans could have endured, and become the explanation for eveything unknown or unexplained along the coast.
Postulating that bigfoots origin is an early species of modern man, whom still survives today is plausible in my mind. Certainly the DNA results so far, do support that kind of thinking as they have been found to be almost indistinguishable from modern humans
I believe I read it was thought that neanderthal types survived and thrived until the early 20-th century in remote reaches of Russia and Mongolia.
In evolution, I would think, it would not be direct successions, but more like parallel branching tree of evolving species.
Following LEB's suggestion, and using shamanistic reasoning, it could be the ghosts of the Caucasian invaders are haunting the west coast woods. It would be interesting to have Native shamans see if they could go into trance and locate the dimension beyond the earth where these creatures also dwell. According to shamanistic reasoning, they could then apologize for wiping them out and negotiate a cease fire.
I've seen this done in Nepal with families said to be haunted by unknown forces which shamans diagnosed as the ghosts of tribal Nepalis who were displaced by the high caste Hindu invasions. For them it worked.
Jan- Kennewick is in SE Washington. There is actually some debate if it is really caucasoid.
"Public interest, debate, and controversy began when an independent archaeologist, working on contract to the Kennewick coroner, decided the bones were ancient but might not be Native American. He described them as "Caucasoid" and sent a piece of bone to a laboratory to be dated. The final date indicated an age of 9,000 years, making Kennewick Man one of the oldest and most complete skeletons found in the Americas. Subsequent tests of other bone samples showed the skeleton to be somewhere between 5650 and 9510 years old. But if it is true that these human remains are thousands of years old, and are not Native American, then who was Kennewick Man? This question raised a number of other questions that have put Kennewick Man "on trial" in the public eye."
SrbPhoto, thanks for the Kennewick man info and Link I was completely unaware.
During my time in Mongolia, I often thought how remarkably similar the facial features of some Mongolians were to west coast indians. One could choose a particular Mongolian and find a corresponding particular West coast indian and their look alike features would be remarkable. The resemblance is not universal, but among individuals, yes it's possible to get a near match I thought
I was trying to simplify. In fact, the racial context of the Ainu is also disputed and is highly political in Japan. What the DNA evidence tells us is that there were many Caucasoid types in northeastern Asia in the past, having followed the game there from central Asia. The youngest "race", geographical variation, whatever you want to call it, is the Mongoloid group which DNA shows evolved from the Caucasoid. Of course no one can say at what point the transition occurred in those areas, nor draw anything more than a fuzzy line between the two groups in some regions. The Uighurs of Chinese Sinkiang however, are quite Caucasoid in appearance still, and they lived in Mongolia before the present day Mongols.
In Japan, the idea that the Ainus were Caucasoid is about as popular with the Japanese as a Caucasian Kennewick man was with the Native Americans. The mainlanders are also still denying that any of the Okinawans are Austronesians and came from the south. The idea of pure races dies hard.
Another possibility is that Kennewick man was an Austronesian (Malayo-Polynesian). There are 35 groups of them on the island of Taiwan alone and the ocean current flows north from there and across Alaska and down the west coast of the Americas. They could have arrived by canoe. A lot of this could be solved if DNA testing was done on Kennewick. Neanderthal DNA has been successfully recovered, so it is doable.
If Sasquatch originated in an alternate reality, and used an internally generated field of some type to pass through the dimensional boundary to be here in ours at times, if they die here the body no longer is sustaining the field and the corpse reverts back to the originating reality.
Explains why no bodies are ever found, but I think it's contradicted by the existence of hairs left behind on barb wire fences. Should the hairs not have reverted back to the original reality ?
Or perhaps the last conscious act of a dying Sasquatch is to re-enter the originating reality, to return home to die.
The photo of Shoalwater Man on the top of this Burke Museum entry, "Shoalwater man from Washington with heavy facial hair" is more striking for his atypical curly head hair than his beard and would seem to give a lot of credence to the idea that Austronesians settled parts of the west coast and melded with the local population.
At the risk of losing all credibility, here is my story.
I was in college at the U of A in Tucson, AZ in the early 90's (probably 91 or 92), and my climbing partner and I decided to take a mid-week trip to Cochise Stronghold. I don't remember the exact routes, but it they were way up in the canyon on the east side. During the hike up, we both commented that it was really quiet, but thought little of it. I remember that the hike in was a solid 1.5 hours, and after climbing the routes we had planned, we started coming down the canyon at about 3 PM. We knew that it would not get dark until 6:30 PM, so we figured that we should be back at the car way before sunset. As we departed, I put my watch in my pack and we took off.
At this point let me interject a little about my experience in the outdoors. By the early 90's I had already spent 100's of nights in the wilderness and was no stranger to being away from civilization. My climbing partner had likewise dome a great deal of alpine climbing and backcountry hiking in Canada and Alaska, and was a very unflappable character.
As we proceeded down the canyon, I was again struck by how quiet it was. I also started to get the feeling that I was being watched; the hair on the back of my neck literally started to stand up. I was about to say something to my partner when he said, "Something is wrong here." I could not agree more. As we stopped to talk, and we discussed the fact that it was silent. Not a sound could be heard and there was no wind. It was completely, unnaturally still! After a VERY brief discussion, we mutually came to the conclusion to get the hell out of there asap!
Now this is where it gets strange. We were walking down in a gully at the base of the canyon. It was heavily vegetated on both sides. We were hopping from rock to rock as we made out decent, and occasionally walking along the dry sand / gravel in the middle and along the edge. As I jumped off a 4' or so drop onto a 10' x 15' sandbar in the middle of the gully, I saw a single footprint. It was roughly human in configuration and at least twice as big as the size 11 boots I was wearing. However, what really struck me was depth of the print. I had just dropped 4' onto the sandbar, and this print was significantly deeper than mine. It was going perpendicular to the gully, and during our very brief inspection we could find no additional prints or any indication of how whatever / whoever made the print had accessed the sandbar. The vegetation was excessively thick on either side of the gully, and it seemed hard to imagine how the print could have been made without disturbing the plants.
Needless to say, we were getting pretty freaked out! The canyon still seemed totally still and we wanted out of there now! We had only been walking about 10 minutes when we found the print, and we figured that it should take us about another 50 or so minutes to get to the car. We had hiked up this gully on the way to the climbs, and should not have had any problem finding our way out. We hiked fast, and at no time did we divert from the path we had walked on our way in. It seemed to take forever, and I felt as if I were in a haze. Neither of us spoke at all and we just kept on walking. It was starting to get dark and I was starting to get a scared. Just as the sun went behind the western ridge, we got to the car. We threw our packs in the back seat, and as I dug out keys I was shocked to see that it was almost 6:45! It had taken us over 3:45 minutes to walk downhill on a trail that had taken us 1:30 minutes to hike up!
Strangely, neither of us said a word. We just got in the car and left. We did not start to speak until we had been on the interstate for about 30 minutes. We both admitted to feeling totally "out of it" during the hike down, but could not explain why it had taken us almost 4 hours to get to the car. This "lost time" was incredibly disconcerting after the fact, much more so than the single footprint.
One more disclaimer, neither of us had ever used hallucinogens and were 100% clean that day.
In the years since, I have never had another "strange" experience in the outdoors (or anywhere). I have talked with people about The Stronghold and have never heard of anyone else having anything similar happen. Was it bigfoot? I don't know. It was just weird!
Comparison of hair is very interesting. You know they found hair in a tree in Bhutan which can not be associated with any known animal? Not much has been published about it though - just a short note on the BBc South Asia page a couple of years ago.
Another thing that just occured to me as I read it, is that the Native Americans could have put a kind of curse on places that they were driven out of and that's what people feel, particularly if they are at all psychically sensitive.
We have similar situations here in Okinawa, left over from the war.
To be clear, I have no idea what happened! I am not claiming bigfoot or curses. I am also not ruling them out! It was just the strangest experience I have ever had. The more I think about it, even today sitting on my couch in suburban Charlotte, NC, I get the chills...
That's why your story is one of the more powerful yet NCrockclimber. Thank you for sharing it. There are things which we are not aware of...I am positive, furthermore, when your instinct tells you something is wrong, I have found that for me, there is a 100 percent correlation to some physical thing which I have not yet grasped but which my psyche has, and a real explanation.....although sometimes we cant' figure it out quickly. I was once stalked by a Cougar for instance, and although I didn't ever see it - I saw the prints in the snow later, and I have the other stories noted above, especially the bear in the middle of the night where none of my physical senses caught it but my hair was on end and I felt fear: and I spotted fresh bear scat nearby the next morning. This has always been the case. Your hair literally stands on end and you become fearful. Now, I normally fear nothing and freely go into the woods solo all the time without a 2nd thought, yet on a few occasions I have had deep fear and had my hair stand on end...and when it has occurred, there has, so far, always been a physical and real explanation.
I saw the original Patterson film in person in 1967 I believe, screened by the man himself right after he shot it...wide screen so to speak, in the Memorial Coliseum. It seemed to me at the time to be a fake, but in talking with Patterson himself: (I stayed after the presentation to talk to the man face to face) I did not see any hint of artifice or untruth from him. Yet Bob Heironimus has confessed to being the dude in the suit of the Patterson film, and Philip Morris, a North Carolina gorilla-suit specialist, said he sold the suit to Patterson. Yet people still post pictures of what appeared to a 7th grader who had already spend a bit of time in the woods where bigfoot was suppose to haunt - to be a fake.
I have recently learned that a local logger, Ray L. Wallace, who just passed away, as a joke - would pose as Bigfoot by dressing in a costume, and making footprints via carved wooden molds which he made to simulate the prints. Realize that he worked throughout the NW woods and moved around constantly into different logging camps in remote areas. Don't know why no hunter ever killed him, crafty bastard for sure I suppose. LOL! I spent the day, today, up in prime bigfoot country, like many of my free days, and I saw no evidence today: like all other days. We all run around with digital cameras now, where are the pictures? Sometimes all we have is this:...and we think it's a bear but MAYBE this is really Bigfoot sh#t? It was taken in Skamania County, Washington: prime Bigfoot territory.
HOWEVER, as Ncclimber points out, depth of some of the prints which have been found could not be explained by Wallaces fake set, because despite the fact that this was a huge man, how do you press something like that down so far without the weight to do so?
PS, I was born in Kenniwick: I hadn't though of Kenniwick man much but I love your theories and musings on that Jan...you are quite the interesting person. Thank you for sharing your thoughts....
I have not ruled out the fact that Bigfoot exists, and your credibility isn't shot because you shared it NCclimber, thanks for sharing it and adding to the knowledge base, like the OP wanted to see happen.
This thread wouldn't have 256 posts already if a lot of people weren't interested !
And just because we don't agree with certain photographs doesn't mean that we're not open to new ideas. Although I believe the physical yeti is a bear, I'm open to the idea that spiritual yetis exist also as taught in Tibetan religion.
Both things could be going on at once and be part of the reason for the confusion.
It's interesting to track these kinds of stories back to simpler times when mass media didn't dominate and define public awareness of fringe topics. Snipped these from http://www.cryptomundo.com. The terms Sasquatch and Bigfoot were still to come, back then they called them Mowglis, like the Jungle Book character.
From the October 28, 1905 Van Wert Daily Bulletin:
British Columbia Mowglis
Tribe of Wild Men Roaming Woods and Frightening People.
James Johnson, a rancher living near Cornox, seven miles from Cumberland, B.C., reports several Mowglis, or wild men, who have been seen in that neighborhood by ranchers, says a Nanaimo (B.C.) correspondent of the San Francisco Call. Johnson asserts that they were performing what seemed to be a sort of “sun dance” on the sand. One of them caught a glimpse of Johnson, who was viewing the proceedings from behind a big log. The Mowglis disappeared as if by magic into a big cave.
Thomas Kincaid, a rancher living near French creek, while bicycling from Cumberland, also reports seeing a Mowgli, whom he describes as a powerfully built man, more than six feet in height and covered with long black hair. The wild man upon seeing Kincaid uttered a shriek and disappeared into the woods. Upon arriving home Kincaid wrote Government Agent Bray of Nanaimo, inquiring if it would be lawful to shoot the Mowgli, as he was terrorizing that vicinity.
The government agent replied that there was no law permitting such an act. It is reported that on a recent hunting expedition up the Quailicum river an Indian saw a Mowgli and, mistaking him for a bear, shot at and wounded him. During the past month no less than eleven persons coming to Nanaimo from Cumberland have seen the wild men. Parties have been organized and every effort is being made to capture the Mowglis.
From the August 24, 1906 Yukon World:
Alberni Has A Wild Man
Vancouver Island Mowgli Said to Be No Myth - Seen by a Prospector Recently.
VANCOUVER, B.C., Aug. 5. - The famous Vancouver island mowgli is no myth. A prospector is now in Vancouver who says he saw the wild man at Alberni a few days ago. He will not allow his name to be used, asserting that he [is] “not looking for notoriety.” He says:
“A few days ago myself [sic] and another prospector dropped right onto the wild man on the shores of Horn lake, Alberni. The mowgli was clothed in sunshine and a smile except that his body was covered with a growth of hair much like the salmon berry-eating bears that infest the region. The wild man ran with astonishing agility as soon as he saw us.
“We found the wickieup in which he had been sheltering and also many traces of where he had been gathering roots along the lake bank for sustenance. That wild man is no figment of the imagination. You can take my word for that.”
Actually, there are several photos and videos of Sas, they just are not being distributed on the internet. These photos indicate that Sas are indifferent to being photographed and sometimes show no awareness that they are being observed. Point in case, I heard a bipedal walker coming through the woods toward me. A tree separated us. I moved around the tree but could not locate the walker. It is common for them to hide by ducking or freezing. I gave up and moved on down the road. A few minutes later, another person walking the road from the opposite direction snapped 3 pics of the animal crossing the road and walking along the margin before entering the woods. If this was the same Sas, it may have held tight for a bit to be sure I was well gone before resuming its intended course. There were half a dozen sightings on this outing but only this person captured photos. At least 3 Sas were active in this area at that time.
Canadian energy sector multi-millionaire Adrian Erickson's Sasquatch Videos
The mysterious Kentucky project
Video footage of sasquatch was supposedly obtained in northern Kentucky.
When will they release it? This is the question asked the most when it comes to the mysterious Kentucky footage. And there isn't just one film, but many. Up to 20 clips, John Bindernagel told me. The wildlife biologist from Vancouver island saw the clips and watched a sasquatch on the location in Kentucky himself in 2007. It's still unknown when the videos will be shown to the public. Chris Noel, a bigfoot researcher with the BFRO from Vermont, said in August in a radio interview that a documentary will be released before the end of the year. John Bindernagel had announced that it would be out in fall 2008 or spring 2009. Nothing came out. Adrian Erickson, who owns the clips, has not give any information about his plans and the project at all.
It is also not known how these clips will be released. Will they be put on a DVD for sale? Or aired on TV? Maybe as a launch of the forthcoming BFRO documentary series? Will the clips be shown in a Monster Quest episode? Or will they be presented at a press conference? If they do have such clear footage as some have claimed, I would assume that they will present their effort at a press conference. It's the way the "Missing link" fossil of an early primate was presented last year. They did a conference first to draw attention and then showed the evidence for everybody in a documentary on popular TV channels worldwide.
There's a lot known about the Kentucky project although the owner of the clips and the BFRO try to keep it secret. Questions and posts about it get deleted at the BFRO discussion forums. Probably most of the involved people were told to keep their mouths shut. Stan Courtney, a researcher from Illinois, who was involved in an early stage of the project, told me that he's not aloud to say anything. "I signed a non-disclosure agreement." So did probably other involved parties. But this is known: Adrian Erickson, company owner and bigfoot research financier from British Columbia, is reportedly in possession of several videos of sasquatch. They were taken during the last couple of years on a rural property in northern Kentucky. Allegedly there was a so called habituation scenario: A family had regular visits of these creatures. A friend of the family eventually submitted a message to the Bigfoot Field Researchers Organization (BFRO) in 2005. Several researchers came to investigate. They obtained footage: the controversial "pancake video". Erickson purchased the footage from the BFRO and took over the case. He bought the property because he wanted to collect further evidence. He hired Colorado bigfoot researcher Dennis Pfohl and ecologist/biologist Leila Hadj-Chikh. In 2007 scientists Jeff Meldrum and John Bindernagel visited the research site.
Hoaxed or not?
But it seems that not everything went the way Erickson wished to. D.B. Donlon, who maintains the "Blogsquatcher" website, speculated that they didn't get new footage after Erickson took over the case. "After the original witnesses sold the house to the Canadian the activity stopped,” he told me. “From what I heard, but this was early on, Leila Hadj-Chikh had not seen anything herself at the location." Donlon, who investigated the Kentucky case firsthand in 2005 when he was still with the BFRO, said that he had heard of five videos and had seen two. "All of those had been filmed either by or with the help of the original witnesses." They had other problems too: The notorious bigfoot hoaxer Tom Biscardi found out about the project. He went to the site but was eventually chased away by the former property owner.
Did the creatures move on? Is this the reason why Adrian Erickson bought another research area in Tennessee? As bigfoot researcher and author Mary Green told me, the Canadian paid a new house for the notorious bigfoot "contactee" Janice Carter in Tennessee in 2006. Green wrote about Carter's case in the much-debated book "50 Years with Bigfoot". But the Tennessee project was a failure for Erickson according to Green: "Janice couldn't furnish any footage or evidence to Erickson." Green guessed that Erickson established a second project because he wanted to back up his findings in Kentucky.
And there's the question of authenticity. Donlon thinks that at least one clip was faked. "The first video, the one I describe in my blog posts, was destroyed by the witness, and I believe it was destroyed because it was too obviously a hoax when shown on a larger TV in good resolution," he told me. "It's important to keep in mind that these witnesses were paid for their home, either 100,000 or 200,000 dollars, as a result of their videos. They had a very clear motive to hoax." Donlon found other evidence much more convincing. "A footprint had visible dermal ridges and was large." But the most persuasive sign for Donlon was the behavior of the dogs of the property owners. "I've never seen dogs act like that. They were truly deathly afraid of whatever was in those woods."
Another controversial piece of film coming from the Kentucky project is the "pancake video". It's a night-time video, showing a creature with a striking large head that reaches for a bait. It appeared on cryptomundo.com for a short time in 2007. "One researcher I know said that it might show a creature with dwarfism - the overlarge head and the short arms being a trait for that," said Donlon. "By my measurements, the creature could not be the lady witness, and she was the only one unaccounted for at that time." Alton Higgins, bigfoot researcher and biologist from Oklahoma, analyzed the footage also. He believes that it shows a person.
At least one video may be very conclusive according to Mary Green, whom Dennis Pfohl showed some clips. "You could see the creature from above her forehead somewhat and then down to about her waist. It was slowly walking through the woods and coming closer", she described to me. Green rules out that the creature was someone in a suit or a misidentified animal. "In my honest opinion it clearly shows a sasquatch."
Chris Noel spoke about another clear clip on the radio. "The woman was able to obtain daylight color high-definition video of this animal. It's a five and a half foot tall female juvenile sasquatch. This footage is going to blow the roof off the whole field." He said that it would be as least as convincing as the Patterson footage, if not a lot more. It's probably the same video Green told about.
The best video since '67?
It seems fishy that this footage – as good as it is supposed to be – hasn't seen the light of day and that its owner hasn't spoken a word about it. Up to now, film footage was released shortly after it was taken. For example the Patterson film in 1967: Without getting it analyzed Roger Patterson and Bob Gimlin showed their video only days after filming all over the country. But the result was disappointing for them: Hardly did scientists take note of it.
According to Mary Green, Janice Carter was told that Erickson won't publish anything until he has many hours of footage and DNA results, and until everyhing is properly analyzed by scientists. It is uncertain if the project is completed. If not, they surely don't want to attract other bigfoot researchers or the media. The Georgia hoax last year demonstrated how newspapers react to claims of sensational bigfoot evidence: they go crazy. Another reason to keep it on the low could be that Erickson and Co. were hoaxed and are now trying to gloss over. So there are reasons to keep the Kentucky project in the dark. Fact is that infos are leaking out. Maybe this is unintentional, but maybe not, as D.B. Donlon points out: “I don't think they are trying to keep a real tight lid on things. My assumption is that Adrian wants to maximize his profit from his video, so leaks here and there are good things.”
The over 40 years old Patterson film from northern California is still considered the best (video) evidence to date. Several alleged videos were shot though in the meantime. The Freeman footage is the most spectacular. In the last year, several night-time videos were obtained. The most interesting is the Mike Greene thermal video. But none of these could convince science of bigfoot's existence. Nor will the Kentucky videos. It doesn't matter how good they are, because films can be manipulated in perfection today. But backed up with testimonies of scientists who have actually seen the creatures on the location, a multi-year study and maybe DNA evidence, the Kentucky project could be a groundbreaking event in sasquatch research.
Interview with Mary Green
“The Video clearly shows a sasquatch”
Mary Green is a bigfoot researcher and author of the controversial book “50 Years with Bigfoot.” She says she has seen some of the Kentucky clips. She describes two in detail and doesn't think that they are hoaxed.
Mary Green, you have seen some of the so called Kentucky clips. Can you tell me about them?
Yes. Dennis Pfohl showed me several videos, some of them taken in color and daylight. I watched them on his laptop screen one by one.
Why did Dennis Pfohl show you these clips?
I believe he did so because he was hoping to win Janice Carter over and have her work for Adrian Erickson. They wished to have another habituation case to help back up the Kentucky project. But I think Janice was never able to furnish any videos or other proofs to Adrian Erickson.
Who had taken these videos from Kentucky?
I just know that S. had taken the close-up videos of the female and was told by Dennis that J. had taken a couple of good videos of the male. I did not get to see any videos of the male. Dennis did say that there was a resident male around at times and that he thought this female was its mate. I did not get to see any video of the baby either.
Can you tell me about the videos Dennis Pfohl presented to you?
One color video showed several minutes of the young female sleeping on the ground. It was a bit dark in the woods but the one who filmed did an excellent job of capturing her while she slept. The female hominid was not curled up tightly, but rather laying mostly on her back. She looked very relaxed.
What was the color of the creature?
It had very thick, soft and silky looking black hair, with maybe a slight reddish hue at times, but that could have been from maybe the sunlight coming through the trees and reflecting a bit of red in the hair.
What else did you notice?
A bit of a zoom-in was next done by the person filming. The hominid was thick around the middle. I don't know if this was before she had her young one or not. The camera then focused along her arms and hands and fingers. Her hands were very human looking and the thumb looked to be at about the same place as a human's would be, maybe only slightly lower. I did note that the shoulders and upper arms, and the forearms were extremely muscular. The hair all over the hominid was long and wavy across the chest area and the stomach area and down the shoulders and arms. The forearms hair was maybe a little bit shorter.
Did you see muscle movement?
Her muscles moved as they should in the arms and hands and fingers. I did note that the young female began to move more and more and stir like she was waking up and that whoever had the camera was backing off some.
Did she have large breasts?
I did not see any breasts. They may have actually been shown but not close enough for me to see them. If she had breasts they were certainly not even close to the size of Patty's in the Patterson/Gimlin film.
How do you know then that it was a female?
I just took Dennis' word for it. He told me it was a female and I believed him.
Can you tell me about the other clip?
This was the best. The hominid, probably the same female, was slowly walking through the woods and coming closer to a couple of trees. She went out of sight behind two of them and then appeared on the other side of them, stopping and standing still as she peered around the woods. You could see her from above her forehead somewhat and then down to about her waist. Clearly, the camera had been zoomed in. Her right side was against the tree and it left her left side free and you could see her shoulder and some of her upper arm too.
This one was of the same color as the first. It had curly, sometimes wavy hair all over her body, on the back of her hands, on the top of her head, and along down to her shoulders and chest. Her hair was from at least 3 inches to possibly 8 inches long, with the longer hair mainly on the head hair and shoulders and upper body.
How did the face look like?
Her face reminded me of a wookie from Star Wars, with a rather flat face in some respects. Although she was totally black skinned, her face did look a whole lot like an Eskimos face. But this is just my own impression. Her head looked to be more rounded and not one of those with a pointed head at all. Her eyes were of a beautiful dark brown, almost black color. There were a lot of the white areas like on our eyes. They were set deep in their sockets. She had very bushy eyebrows. If I remember correctly, she had soft hair all over her face, and maybe a very small portion of just hairless skin around her eyes and nose.
How was her nose like?
Her nose was like ours, very much so. It began and ended where our noses do. But it looked more like a black person's nose, a bit wider on the base where the nostrils are. Her nostrils were big also.
Lips and teeth?
Her lips were lightly rosy in color and plumper on the lower lip. It may have looked plumper because her upper lip came down over the lower lip due to the eye teeth which were grown out on each side of her mouth. The eye teeth were pointed and not flat like ours are. They curved backwards. They looked exactly like small fangs. The inside of her mouth was pink like ours and the rest of her teeth looked very white and more like humans'. Her cheeks were fat and rounding.
How did she move and act?
Very cautious. She displayed a look of wild cunning as she looked slowly around. I did not see her blink at any time, but this video was also fairly short. She was an intelligent being in my own opinion. She did move her lips and opened her mouth a little, and turned her head from side to side very slowly every now and then.
Did you notice any similarities to the Patterson creature?
Both had hair on their heads, faces, and bodies. But Patty had far less hair and looked larger and also more human without the fangs.
Do you think the creature in this video was real?
I believe that it was not a person in a suit, or a hoax of any kind.
But is it really a sasquatch?
In my honest opinion it clearly shows a sasquatch. There is no doubt in my mind. I know what orang-utans are and monkeys, great apes, bears, cougars, and many other type creatures. This was an unknown creature to mankind.
Were there any other videos Dennis Pfohl showed you?
Yes, beside the "pancake video" he showed me another video. Leila Hadj-Chikh was with S. in this video. They were driving. Then they stopped the car. I was told at this point that the female sasquatch was calling to the two women from across a strip of field at the wood line. You could barely hear something making some noise. Then the video showed the two women talking to the sasquatch and trying to entice it closer to them. The two eventually went on to town. The next morning, as I was told, someone found that S.'s car windshield had been struck rather badly. The video showed it. It looked like two or three big fists had broken it in. The hood of the car was bashed in all over.
Do you know why they are holding back the clips?
I was told by Dennis that Adrian did not wish to release the video clips and other biological information until all work was completed. They wanted to take a certain number of hours of good, clear films of the sasquatches. I was also told that Adrian would most likely first release the clips in Canada. I think Dennis said that Adrian felt more comfortable doing this in his own country. However, this was a few years back so I cannot be certain that this is still their plan.
Were you asked to keep the project secret?
No, I was not asked to sign any documents about what they have shown me or told me. So I am not bound to keep this secret.
By Jessica Arriens
Published: Monday, January 04, 2010
JAFFREY — In early fall, Keene resident Jonathan C. Doyle had a spontaneous idea: Dress as Bigfoot and appear atop the summit of Mount Monadnock.
He surprised some 80 hikers, then shot video of interviews with them and posted the clip on YouTube.
A couple weeks later, he took it even further with a performance art piece, acted on the mountain and featuring not only the legendary Sasquatch but a pirate, a Yoda-esque character, and some singing and dancing.
It was meant to be an absurdist idea, but has evolved into something a bit more solemn: an accusation about a violation of First Amendment rights.
Doyle, an artist and videographer who runs his own online company called NYCreator, has filed a complaint with the N.H. Civil Liberties Union Foundation, alleging that his free speech rights were trampled during the second Bigfoot appearance.
During the performance, a group of six — including Doyle, who was filming — were acting out their parts while hiking up the mountain.
Doyle said his group was on a lesser-used trail and wasn’t bothering any other park attendees.
“If we had sensed that we were creating a real disturbance I think we would have changed our ways,” he said.
The performance ended about halfway up the mountain, however. Doyle and crew were stopped by a park ranger and told to leave, because they did not have a permit to perform at the park.
New Hampshire law states that a special-use permit is required at state parks when people hold “organized or special events which go beyond routine recreational activities.”
Through the N.H. Civil Liberties Foundation, Doyle is arguing that the expulsion violated his First Amendment rights, by curbing free speech in a public forum — a state park.
In a Dec. 14 letter to George Bald, commissioner of New Hampshire’s Department of Resources and Economic Development (which includes the Parks Department), Foundation Staff Attorney Barbara R. Keshen says the special permit rule is vague, giving “unchecked discretion” to the park director.
“The Permit requirement is unconstitutionally broad on its face and as applied to Mr. Doyle and his production team,” the letter said.
Doyle said he hasn’t received any reply from the parks department.
Amy Bassett, a spokeswoman for the N.H. Division of Parks and Recreation, said the letter had been forwarded to the state Attorney General’s office.
“At the time we were following our administrative rules,” she said.
“At this point (we’re) just waiting to hear back from the AG’s office.”
Doyle is seeking two results from the complaint: an apology from the department and a chance to finish his film.
“I have no problem with following rules,” he said.
But to just apply for a permit now would ignore the First Amendment violation, he said.
Despite the free speech challenge, Doyle said it’s important for people to remember that the Bigfoot performance — and accompanying film — is still the absurdist, humorous idea it started out as.
“This is not meant to be some glorified famous event.”
I agree it's 'interesting to speculate' - to a point. It's also 'interesting' to apply science to it and try to establish some credible and plausible boundaries around that 'speculation'. This isn't cosmology or quantum physics, it's about the probability of the existence of a large hominid-like, bipedal mammal - or, if you believe all the 'sightings' of many such creatures across the lower 48 states.
Biology, ecology, population studies, and ethology are all relatively well-understood science when it comes to large animals. That science always comes back to the harsh realities implicit in the concept "minimum viable population" with an emphasis in 'viable'. Allied concepts such as 'territorial range' also come into play. Together they lay some pretty specific boundaries around what is likely or possible.
The Loch Ness monster is again a good example of this - the physical and biological parameters of the lake are well known and there simply isn't an available foodstock in the lake to support any such creature let alone a minimum viable population of them.
Then there is the dreaded common sense - ever been to the west half of Kentucky or southern Illinois? They aren't 'big' places and don't have much remaining 'wilderness'. If there were Sasquatch there then they'd show up on 7-Eleven and Walmart demographics for store siting.
From my perspective the first 'speculation' that has to happen is to establish plausibility. 'Speculation' that simply assumes the sale - the existences of Sasquatch - and then attempts to explain it skips a very necessary first step.
When you view the link Peter Haan has posted in a different thread concerning the enormousness of the universe, other possibilities open up.
There is nothing about the contents of that link, the scale of time/distance of the universe, or our insignificance within it that in any way opens the door to the 'paranormal' with regards to a large mammal in the lower 48 states of America on planet Earth. There are no 'paranormal' species on Earth other than in our very creative imaginations.
What else exists in that vast space that we know nothing about and which could conceivably impact this scenario.
The only way that could impact 'this scenario' on Earth is if there are mammals with infinitely powerful internal fusion generators and a mind capable of navigating time travel. Great scifi, but that's about the limit of it.
I agree, and purple dragons and unicorns, too. But it isn't going to happen is the harsh reality. Sasquatch on a different planet - sure. Sasquatch at a different time on this planet - sure. Sasquatch in Clackamas, OR or Metropolis, IL - it ain't happening.
We all like it when dreams and creativity are expressed and realized, but I also don't understand why should we should get sad or be in denial about the existence of limits and boundaries on our imagination being expressed in the real world. Art, fiction, myth, and lore are wonderful things just as they are.
a couple of friends saw big foot running down the ridge from unicorn peak. it dove into budd lake and disappeared into a hole that opened up into the middle of the lake. they didn't tell many folks... sh#t sounds crazy
i've never seen one or felt their presence, but i am open to the thought that they could exist.
Srbphotos link to the newspapaer report is interesting. I had heard of that fossilized trackway before. The prints are in the characteristic straight line fashion you see up thread in the Shipton Himalayan photo.
There are some fossilized footprints here in BC near Harrison lake that the Indians say are Sasquatch. I would like to get out and see them one day.
As for BF diving into the lake down a hole, well I don't discount that either. Wierd bigfoot stories are the most interesting, and in my opinion very likely to be true, even though they are always hard to believe.
It's just one world we see but how many dimensions to it are there ?
Well, I have been doing my own research, and this is the closest I've come. Please understand that this is not a joke - this is in PRIME bigfoot country, where more Bigfoots have been found in the state. I do not think they are the same, however, other climbers whom I have shown the picture too who are convinced this is proof of bigfoots existence. We are all confused by the clothing of course. Patterson photo on right. New bigfoot on left.
That's all I got. Looks like Jeff Thomas to me.
BTW, on the phosphorescent grub story above, of course, I was saying that to me, in the pitched black of night - they LOOKED like they were floating, however: as I found out, they were actually on the ground. Interesting phenomena....
I am not saying I saw a Bigfoot, but it look like no other creature I have ever seen.
Exactly, how could one identify something unknown to them, or everyone else for that matter
It would explain why no one finds proof
There is proof Coz, footprints, hair, photos, video, but certainly no body, no smoking gun. Definately no proof which has been officially accepted by science.
He wouldn't talk about it with just anybody.
Thats the smart option, for now.
So I spoke with my friend whom was out hiking 300 days last year, the one who took the photo of the head peeking up behind the stump. He said he got a 5 second video clip last month, hardy a big deal, I know. He sent it to A. Erickson, the Albertan with all the footage. God knows when this stuff is getting released .... supposedly this year.
2 words: 2 words for the graduate...."GAME CAMERA"
All these hunters running aound with game cameras everywhere all the time and all we get is some fuzzy pics of what appears to be a man in a gorilla suit? Game cameras are cheap and ubiquitous. Although I do not believe 100% that bigfoot is a hoax, you have to ask, where are the game camera pics?
This is what they look like:
This is an image, what I would expect to see in it's place would look like bigfoot, not a fuzzy pic of a man in a fur suit. daytime pic.
This unknown game camera pic is the most interesting one I've seen. It doesn't look like a dude in a suit. Not sure what it is.....
So I went for a hike with a local unamed Supertopo climber last May ….
Yup we found a bees nest of sasquatch tracks, probably more than anyone has ever found in one spot. the shape and not the size told me they were sasquatch tracks. These were baby / juveniles. I Just put together a cool video of the find
I apologize if super fleas, Bigfoot, Reinhold Messner, and ridicule all got mixed together in a previous post of mine. There is humor to be found, for sure, but I have some slight acquaintance with bmacd and will go with the Zauman/physics analogy; it is beyond me to determine whether he is serious or not.
We are now very close to the publish date of the continent wide DNA study of Sasquatch in a science journal by Dr. Melba Ketchum. Look for my name in the foot notes of the paper for having sourced and contributed valid Sasquatch DNA samples to the study.
Todd Standing asked me to share and distribute this image taken in 2011 in the Southern Canadian Rockies.
The study will reveal that Sasquatch are part of the genus, homo, and that they are also part of our (homo sapiens sapiens) evolutionary ancestry.
Ron, yes Justin Smeja's sample checked in as valid, as well as 26 other samples. My colleague Randy Brisson from Maple Ridge, BC. managed to source DNA from 5 distinct individuals out of Golden Ears Provincial Park here in BC. See up thread images from the trackway Jim Brennan and I found at Golden Ears in 2010.
The BFRo were not involved in the DNA study, but somehow the study arose from a collective effort by the people whom actively pursue field investigations into the subject.
anybody want to go on a REAL bigfoot hunt where we actually have a permit, hit this thread up....i only charge 10,000$ per person and i guarantee that we wont find him or her.....plus i wont charge you for USFS fines....
When Bigfoot hunter Matt Pruitt led an expedition through the Arkansas woods in search of legendary woodland apes, all he bagged was a lousy government fine.
According to The Republic, The National Parks Service cited the leader of the Bigfoot Field Researchers Organization for not having a permit when he took 31 Sasquatch seekers to sites along Arkansas' Buffalo National River last month. Any expedition that charges a fee requires a permit from the federal government, and Pruitt had charged participants $300 to $500 apiece to participate in the hunt.
Rangers cited Pruitt for engaging in a business without a permit or written agreement, and fined him $525. Pruitt said it was an innocent mistake and that he paid his fine last week. Even with the fine, the numbers suggest he raked in between $9,000 and $15,000 in profit. [Americans More Likely than Canadians to Believe in Bigfoot]
The Bigfoot Field Researchers Organization hosts 20 four-day hunting expeditions each year. The BFRO's mission is "to resolve the mystery surrounding the Bigfoot phenomenon, that is, to derive conclusive documentation of the species' existence," according to its website.
The group has yet to kill or find the remains of an actual Bigfoot, but bits and pieces of "physical evidence" are obtained during most hunting expeditions, from footprints to scat to "shining eyes" seen in night camera footage.
I know all the myth and stuff...but putting it another way...how many have been in the backwoods and was awakened by something that you never heard before that made the hair all over you body stand on end. Not just a noise but a scream that you will never forget. This has nothing to do with the wives toy thread...but a scream/roar that was deep and long...more then one sequence so it was not a dream.
The DNA study was done under auspices of Dr. Melba Ketchum, Texas. The paper is presently nearing completion under the peer review process for publiction in a science journal. I was one of a handful of people in the world which brought forward qualifying DNA material, sourced from the British Columbia coast range. Melbas team has also invited me to join her Society which will lobby for the protection from harm and basic human rights for these prehistoric people, to whom we, homo sapiens sapiens, are related and share a lineage.
Big names in establishment science are getting into the DNA testing of supposed yeti remains. Brian Sykes, of Oxford University in England is teeming up with Lausanne Museum in Switzerland to run DNA sampling on various worldwide samples. Sykes invented the industry of genetic testing for historical and genealogical purposes with Oxford Ancestors, and he is the person who figured out how to do DNA testing on neanderthal remains. Whatever he comes up with will be considered authoritative.
KALISPELL, Mont. — A man dressed in a military-style "ghillie" suit and apparently trying to provoke reports of a Bigfoot sighting in northwest Montana was struck by two cars and killed, authorities said.
The man was standing in the right-hand lane of U.S. Highway 93 south of Kalispell on Sunday night when he was hit by the first car, according to the Montana Highway Patrol. A second car hit the man as he lay in the roadway, authorities said.
Flathead County officials identified the man as Randy Lee Tenley, 44, of Kalispell. Trooper Jim Schneider said motives were ascertained during interviews with friends, and alcohol may have been a factor but investigators were awaiting tests.
"He was trying to make people think he was Sasquatch so people would call in a Sasquatch sighting," Schneider told the Daily Inter Lake (http://bit.ly/PWJvA5); on Monday. "You can't make it up. I haven't seen or heard of anything like this before. Obviously, his suit made it difficult for people to see him."
Ghillie suits are a type of full-body clothing made to resemble heavy foliage and used to camouflage military snipers.
"He probably would not have been very easy to see at all," Schneider told KECI-TV (http://bit.ly/PkdWMO ).
Tenley was struck by vehicles driven by two girls, ages 15 and 17, who were unable to stop in time, authorities said.
I know all the myth and stuff...but putting it another way...how many have been in the backwoods and was awakened by something that you never heard before that made the hair all over you body stand on end. Not just a noise but a scream that you will never forget. This has nothing to do with the wives toy thread...but a scream/roar that was deep and long...more then one sequence so it was not a dream.
Hey, the more the better, as it's all in the labs - legitimate labs, legitimate results. In this case it just means all this nonsense will in fact get put to bed rather than, as Ed says, linger on noisy and unresolved like ufology. And that's the 'beauty' of all things sasquatch - the onus is on believers to deliver verifiable DNA evidence.
Again, the problem with both sasquatch and nessie is the nasty scientific concept of: Minimum viable population. The only real question on the table is why some folks so ardently need to believe in all these various 'adult' versions of santa claus and the tooth fairy.
What if all of the many people who have seen a bigfoot can no longer be clear about it because their memories of the encounter have been blurred by the chemicals in the chemtrails? Or if they (you know, they) have abducted all the witnesses and taken them to the ark on the moon where their memories were altered?
I bet you scientific guys don't have any clever answers for those scenaios, do you?
Thanks for the Kenniwick update. It has been known for some time now that proto Polynesians sailed the circum Pacific by riding the black current north from Japan and across to North America. Unfortunately, their campsites and probably some other burials are now underwater on our western coastline and so hard to find and excavate. It is indeed interesting that they wandered so far inland.
Jan, have you read In the Wake of the Jomon by Jon Turk? He subscribed
to that theory and set out to do it. After he had done it, by the skin of
his teeth, I'm not sure he really believes in it any more. That's one
rough row to paddle. It is a really good book.
Reilly, you mentioned this before and its on my wish list ..........
I think one's success would depend a lot on the time of year. And of course it could have happened by accident more than once.
One of the most interesting conference sessions I ever attended was on the known record of shipwrecks that drifted from Asia to the coast of northwestern America in the 1900's up through the early 20th century. Some were ships of skeletons when they arrived, and others carried Japanese who were enslaved by Native Americans (not something either group wants to acknowledge).
We also know that the ancestors of the Australian aborigines made it from Indonesia to Australia 50,000 years ago.
It's in a paper that was read at the conference. I have it somewhere but it will take a long while to find it as I am packing and moving and renovating - huge mess.
Another fascinating paper was about the similarities between the Zuni and the Japanese. The Zuni also have a really interesting origin story in which they used to live in California by the big sea. They also have two sets of ancestors - those who were birthed out of the earth and those who came by sea when islands disappeared off the coast. They say the sea ancestors were more advanced and gave the Zunis many new religious ideas.
according to the the guy who shot the video, it was looking at them (i am assuming they saw the eyes). to me it looked a lot broader in the shoulders than a bear. bears have relativly big heads and their shoulders,waist and hips tend to be around the same size. If you freeze the video it appears to have a small head and broad shoulders. Of course it's fall and the bears have been fattening up for fall. more likely than not a bear but still a cool video.
I wish people would stop filming stuff with phones and buy real cameras :)
A team of scientists can verify that their 5-year long DNA study, currently under peer-review, confirms the existence of a novel hominin hybrid species, commonly called “Bigfoot” or “Sasquatch,” living in North America. Researchers’ extensive DNA sequencing suggests that the legendary Sasquatch is a human relative that arose approximately 15,000 years ago as a hybrid cross of modern Homo sapiens with an unknown primate species.
The study was conducted by a team of experts in genetics, forensics, imaging and pathology, led by Dr. Melba S. Ketchum of Nacogdoches, TX. In response to recent interest in the study, Dr. Ketchum can confirm that her team has sequenced 3 complete Sasquatch nuclear genomes and determined the species is a human hybrid:
“Our study has sequenced 20 whole mitochondrial genomes and utilized next generation sequencing to obtain 3 whole nuclear genomes from purported Sasquatch samples. The genome sequencing shows that Sasquatch mtDNA is identical to modern Homo sapiens, but Sasquatch nuDNA is a novel, unknown hominin related to Homo sapiens and other primate species. Our data indicate that the North American Sasquatch is a hybrid species, the result of males of an unknown hominin species crossing with female Homo sapiens.
Hominins are members of the taxonomic grouping Hominini, which includes all members of the genus Homo. Genetic testing has already ruled out Homo neanderthalis and the Denisova hominin as contributors to Sasquatch mtDNA or nuDNA. “The male progenitor that contributed the unknown sequence to this hybrid is unique as its DNA is more distantly removed from humans than other recently discovered hominins like the Denisovan individual,” explains Ketchum.
“Sasquatch nuclear DNA is incredibly novel and not at all what we had expected. While it has human nuclear DNA within its genome, there are also distinctly non-human, non-archaic hominin, and non-ape sequences. We describe it as a mosaic of human and novel non-human sequence. Further study is needed and is ongoing to better characterize and understand Sasquatch nuclear DNA.”
Ketchum is a veterinarian whose professional experience includes 27 years of research in genetics, including forensics. Early in her career she also practiced veterinary medicine, and she has previously been published as a participant in mapping the equine genome. She began testing the DNA of purported Sasquatch hair samples 5 years ago.
Ketchum calls on public officials and law enforcement to immediately recognize the Sasquatch as an indigenous people:
“Genetically, the Sasquatch are a human hybrid with unambiguously modern human maternal ancestry. Government at all levels must recognize them as an indigenous people and immediately protect their human and Constitutional rights against those who would see in their physical and cultural differences a ‘license’ to hunt, trap, or kill them.”
Full details of the study will be presented in the near future when the study manuscript publishes.
Dr. Ketchum is available for interview or to answer further questions about the Sasquatch genome study and associated research on novel contemporary hominins at media(at)dnadiagnostics(dot)com
I will post more information as it becomes available
As mentioned before, the concept of a 'minimum viable population' is pretty inviolate here and for there to be real sightings for decades it would in fact require a MVP of reasonable numbers in any one locale. For sightings in different states that would mean MVPs in each locale unless they are traveling 'interdimensionally' between locales.
If this were a real genetic study it would be done in an academic setting and there wouldn't be the total lack of transparency and detail about the sample or studies as there is in this case. It's still pseudo-science at its history channel best.
DNA is either mtDNA from the mother or Y-DNA from the father. Never heard of nuDNA before. The rest of it uses the right terms and is interesting if true and not out of the realm of possibility since we are discovering more and more species of ancient Homo. So far there are four confirmed species descended from Homo erectus (neandethal, denisovan, floresiensis, sapiens).
Since the founder of Oxford Ancestors, a bonafide DNA lab based at Oxford University in England is also sampling supposed sasquatch and yeti specimens from around the world, we should have some answers within five years. And the Oxford results will be transparent for sure.
After doing my own googling, I discovered that nuDNA means nuclear DNA which means nothing really since all DNA is taken from a cell nucleus. It's a nice cover however for the fact that all the DNA they've sampled is female (mitochondrial)and that DNA is human. The rest of the DNA they're extrapolating from is the complete human genome which is known to contain a lot of so called junk DNA, some of it from parasites, bacteria, and viruses that ingratiated themselves into our systems in the past.
Some modern Europeans have been found to contain about 4% neanderthal DNA so it's not out of the realm of possibility that all modern human groups have individuals who carry DNA from past species of homonins. If that's what they have discovered in Texas then it would indicate that there is yet another species of Homo in Asia that has not yet been discovered which managed to breed with some of the ancestors of Native Americans. That would be a very interesting finding if true, but does nothing to prove sasquatch and has the potential for racist implications if they try to present it that way.
On the nuDNA side of things what is most interesting is these 'non' types.. non-human, non-archaic hominin, and non-ape sequences. The male progenitor, where are they now and / or who were they ? More questions raised than answered here for me.
This isn't a question of belief anymore, a significant amount of seriously hard data is now behind all this, the subject no longer be refuted by anyone of a credible academic stature
The paper is yet to be published so we know very little at this point
Just be patient, I am not in the loop except for the fact samples I submitted qualified. The publishing Journal requires itself to be the bearer of the news. They were looking for track pictures back in August, one of mine may be used in the article, but not from the above shots which were taken on my last trip to Stave Lake, specifically was gunning for the cover shot track on that adventure.
We know that Homo erectus made it to Indonesia and north China so it's possible some of them could have crossed over to the new world.
We also know from both DNA and linguistics that there were several waves of Homo sapiens settlers from Asia. It's very unlikely but possible, that some sapiens interbred with one of the descendant species of H. erectus similar to but not the same as H. denisova.
Homo neanderthals were in Europe until 27,000 years ago so it's not inconceivable that other descendants of Homo erectus were in the Americas even longer. Unlikely but possible.
Jan, with all due respect, humans lost their hair somewhere back around a million years ago. The idea that a large primate with long, thick hair and without substantive tool use made the journey to the Americas in relatively recent time is beyond a reach. Doubly so due the bottlenecking effect of the land bridge which would have brought them into competition with humans.
Earlier still they would have had to compete with Neanderthals and Denisovans as well. And really, what's the likelyhood of a sasquatch-like creature competing well enough to survive to today with an intact minimum viable population? If Denisovans and tool-using Neanderthals didn't make it, it's pretty much a no-brainer that no sasquatchians population survived either. I also doubt any such creature has ever existed as described, certainly not in the last several hundred thousand years.
If they did exist, and managed to maintain a minimum viable population into the modern era, we would know all about them, would have bones, bodies, and no doubt live captives. It just fails basic biological and ecological credibility tests on all fronts no matter how much some folks want to believe in them.
It's 2:30 Monday morning here so I'll be brief. However, let me state for the record that I don't think that Sasquatch as an unknown primate exists. I do find it intriguing that someone may have left hair samples in the woods that show a percentage of non Homo sapiens DNA in a local population which I presume is Native American. That's what I meant by analogous to sapiens and neanderthal in Europe.
I find it intriguing that other primates and/or Homo erectus and some of its sucessors may have made it to North America.As for the cultural questions, I think many of the ape men tales could be holdovers from the time when sapiens were in conflict with the other successors to H. erectus. Or in Asia they may be tales based on conflicts between sapiens and remnants of a large ape called Gigantipithecus.
Those battles are easily conflated into anything else that's unknown. I lived for a year in Rolwaling Valley in Nepal which is famous for sightings of yeti. My own opinion is that they were encounters with bears for the most part, usually in heavy snowstorms with poor visibility and scared to death people running away. Easy to have selective memory in those cases. Something capable of climbing on the roof of a house did kill a friend's ox and drag it for a quarter of a mile, eat it's liver and leave the rest. Enough to frighten anyone.
If there is a yeti as an undiscovered species of primate in the Himalaya, it lives in the rain forests of Bhutan and Assam in India, not at high altitude. Bonobos were only discovered 30-40 years ago so it's possible that an unknown species of ape still lives in the rain forests of the eastern Himalaya.
Sorry if my anthropological musings confused people regarding the popular mythology of Sasquatch.
The problem which arises with the shooters is after the kill they get up close and see that the face is totally human. Reluctance to be completely forthcoming regarding the event conflicts with what to do next and what they should have done in the first place.
I'm certain many shootings are never talked about because in fact a murder has taken place, as the DNA Report would confirm.
Smeja was stupid enough to start yapping about it, and his problems are not over yet.
In 2006 I saw two huge ones at night, nearly 12 feet tall, it wasn't a clear sighting but I could see their eyes glowing red, watched them for about 30 minutes, I was terrified. In 1996 I also had what I believe was another encounter climbing at Skaha. In 2007 I had a number of night time encounters, which have persisted every time I return to the Sechelt Pennisula. I have also found tracks near Pemberton at Lillooet lake.
Seen many tracks in the past three years in Golden Ears Park beginning in 2009 and also had a number of rocks mystersiously thrown at me there as well, and not by people. In 2011 while camping in Golden Ears something cleared off the picnic table in the middle of the night and stunk up the campsite while some sort of beam of light shone out of the forest into my truck where I was cowering in fear.
Sadly No clear daylight sightings for me. I have seen lots of tracks in a lot of different places. Lots of strange lights in the forest and cloudy skies while out camping. In summary many strange experiences since 2006.
As far as your laptop goes, I have also had text mysteriously erase and disappear several times when I was about to say something on the topics of ET or bigfoot.
I have no idea what the connections are, but I have been feeding them treats (pancakes, steaks, sacks of potatoes, large bags of dog food) and trying to get video for years, so like I said you get what you ask for .... and in my case it's just a lot of games and entertainment on their part
The fear is over whelming and is not something that I feel I am generating myself completely, frozen sometimes in place, and the camera is almost always pointed the wrong way when they show up. Got nothing worth sharing except moving shadows and weird lights on nv gen III vid clips.
I didn't get certified for firearms till October of this year but have not applied for a license yet. If they were going to do me in it would have happened years ago. I do want some bear protection though.
My last experience was in November of 2011 ... I had a witness with me but it wasn't what you could call a bigfoot per say.
No one is anywhere near the places I am at night and it's doubtfull anyone is hoaxing flying balls of light, and shaking the ground with thunderous footsteps on an innocent little bigfoot hunter like me.
Always fun bringing someone along for these adventures though as I often do. I am happy just finding tracks, I don't really desire a face to face meeting anymore at this point.
It's called murder and I want no part of it and neither do you Ron. Besides the new videos and proof are already in the can and will be released after the DNA study has been printed in the Journal. The costs by some to get it to that point are over 3 million bucks so far. It's called getting poor not rich. No doubt the investment will yield a return in the end though.
It's done, be patient, you'll see, everyone will know soon ...
Meanwhile my curiosity remains regarding who the progenitors are because what we are calling Sasquatch is only one third of the story.
momentum indepently building in the genetics blogosphere
dna-explained.com is a blogging channel for DNAeXplain, a DNA genetics consulting company that offers individual written analysis of DNA results. While we have had opinions from Ketchum proponents and Ketchum detractors, Bigfooters and non-bigfooters. We haven't had an independent DNA expert react to the Melba Ketchum Bigfoot DNA press release.
Indeed, I look forward to seeing this published paper and I hope it is legitimate and not pseudo-science of some sort. The mere fact that the scientiests have opted for academic publication versus a book or TV documentary certainly alludes to the fact that it is legitimate research.
The latest reports are now speculating that the unknown primate was gigantipithecus which wandered into the new world before Homo sapiens?
That's because it would have to have crossed before Homo sapiens because otherwise they'd have had to have competed with us if it was concurrent. But for like the hundredth time, the inviolate concept of 'minimum viable population' makes non-existent even the remotest possibility of their existence. Ditto for Nessie.
Once again, there are several separate speculations going on here and I am NOT advocating for a population of unknown apes in North America.
So far mine are:
1. Speculations about what people see in the woods. My guess is an upright walking bear. Same for the yeti in the Himalayas
2. Speculations about how the DNA evidence as claimed so far might be explained, assuming that the DNA was not contaminated either accidentally or deliberately.
To me, Gigantipithecus was much too different genetically to have bred with Homo.
Therefore the only scenario I can imagine is hair left behind by a living Native American who has a few genetic markers inherited from Homo erectus or one of his descendants like denosovan back in Asia and much further back in time than 15,000 years. This would parallel what we see with some Europeans and neanderthal DNA.
I can tell you Jan with 100% certainty that Gigantopithicus theory is very old school and definately out the window now. There are snipets of new info in each of these articles and I encourage you to read them Jan.
I Ran across several very good articles today, this one from the Baltimore Post Examiner is good;
Big Foot DNA study: Sasquatch is real
BY TIMOTHY W. MAIER · NOVEMBER 30, 2012 · 2 COMMENTS
Forgive us if we’ve made a little fun of Big Foot in a series of articles on Baltimore Post-Examiner. I know we got some serious Sasquatch hunters, scientists and researchers a little upset about their obsession. So it’s time to give a little respect to those Big Foot researchers.
....... Those questioning the lab’s findings should know that her lab didn’t do all the testing. In all, 13 university labs and several private facilities were involved. Ketchum said. None of the universities were named but she said the conclusions were the same. Not human; not non-human. The only question now is will her documentary come out before the study.
Lastly I wish to remind everyone that the group to stay tuned to is the Erickson Project, whom supplied DNA from 5 separate individuals out of Golden Ears Park in British Columbia, as well as the money shot of a giant male Sasquatch in Kentucky. I have met Dennis Phol, project manager and chief videographer for Erickson, and more power to him for what he has done. My good friend Randy Brisson, and his son Ray, whom I have spent a good deal of time with in the woods has done a first rate job as a contributer to both Projects.
The Ericson Project will release footage Adrian has invested purportedly millions of dollars in getting which will be the cou d'etat to this whole effort. I suspect he will do this through either the Discovery Channel or Nat Geo
One of the troubling things I have about our Hairy friends is what happens to the dead? Do they dispose of each other some how? One would think by now we would have some bones or some other evidence other than foot prints.
Researchers Sequence Sasquatch Genome, Novel Hominins Extant in North America
Next-Generation Whole Genome Sequencing Proves Extant Human Relative, Findings Published in Denovo Journal of Science
.(PRWEB) February 13, 2013
A team of eleven scientists with expertise in genetics, forensics, pathology, biochemistry, and biophysics has sequenced three whole nuclear genomes from a novel, contemporary species of hominin in North America. The study, “Novel North American Hominins, Next Generation Sequencing of Three Whole Genomes and Associated Studies,” which analyzed DNA from a total of 111 high-quality samples submitted from across the continent, appears in the inaugural issue of Denovo: Journal of Science (http://www.denovojournal.com); on February 13.
The team, led by Dr. Melba S. Ketchum, DVM, of DNA Diagnostics in Nacogdoches, TX, sequenced the three whole nuclear genomes using the next-generation Illumina HiSeq 2000 platform at University of Texas, Southwestern from a tissue sample, a saliva sample, and a blood sample. The three genomes all attained Q30 quality scores above 88 on the Illumina platform, significantly higher than the platform average of 85, indicating highly-purified, single-source DNA with no contamination for each sample. The three Sasquatch genomes align well with one-another and show substantial homology to primate sequences.
In addition to the three nuclear genomes, Ketchum’s team also sequenced 20 whole and 10 partial mitochondrial genomes from the Sasquatch samples. In contrast to the nuDNA results, the Sasquatch mtDNA was fully modern Homo sapiens, indicating that the species is a hybrid cross between modern Homo sapiens in the maternal lineage and an unknown hominin male progenitor.
Genetic testing has already ruled out Homo neanderthalis and the Denisova hominin as contributors to Sasquatch mtDNA or nuDNA. “The male progenitor that contributed the unknown sequence to this hybrid is unique as its DNA is more distantly removed from humans than other recently discovered hominins like the Denisovan individual,” explains Ketchum.
The good thing about DNA is that you can't discuss it until you have a sequence of numbers and letters to work with. Only when the actual sequence is published, will anybody know anything. Until then it's all speculation based on hearsay.
If they really have any data, then why not just publish the raw DNA sequence and let the scientific world look at it? We don't need more detailed private studies, we need the data.
P.S. I just discovered that you can have access to the article which may or may not contain the data for a mere $30.
has anyone seen any feedback about the actual report (by someone who has read it). All of the news has been the tabloid stuff.
So I go to my local library. There is a Friends of the Library section where you can buy retired library books. I notice they had a couple of copies of Dr. Meldrum's "Sasquatch: Legend meets Science". They looked new and at 50 cents I had no choice! When I open it I saw that it was a signed copy from the lecture he gave at the library in 2010. SCORE!!! It goes into the collection of signed books for my kids.
Well I am just as disappointed as everyone else. No journal would accept the article, so yes the guys backing this, an American and a Canadian philanthropists, bought an exisiting journal to publish in. Not cool - buttt - Oxford has picked up the ball and is running a second study, Brian Sykes whom is well known and respected in Academia, (for now at least) is following up with samples from similar sources to the ketchup study.
What a bummer this whole thing turned out to be.
Hoping the second study will be recognized and the genome results made public.
Apparently GenBank rejected the Sasquatch genomes for inclusion because if they are human then the people owning that DNA have to sign a release form. Thats an example of the continuous stumbling blocks one runs into in this game.
I'd like to see the raw data in the publi domain But Ketchup is so obsessed with profiting from this she is charging money to view at this point and thinks her raw data is worth withholding for money too .... sad
Anyone want to pony up some scratch to check the GEEnome of an authentic Yeti Bone?
I may even have actual photos. This is more real than Sasquatch hair, it's from Nepal. Like I said, I LIVED in Sasquatch country.
In a tent with my family.
When I was a kid.
We had a canvas home....were knot homeless. We had a tent. The bros and I wandered far and wide. And Wide and far. Never saw sign. Saw many other amazing things. No Sasquatch hair. Saw pubic hair. Not mine of course, that was later. In fact as a 50 some year old, I spent a lot of time at a new climbing area just further up the road few years back. Cougar, bear and many other interesting things were observed. And scat too: cougar bear mine...scat lots of it. No Sasq, no yeti, no condors. There is a man convinced that the Condors lived in the area. He's checking GEEnome for Condors. I have my doubts.
I was taking folks up for mini tours in lieu of begging for belays. And then one day the old guy of the group dejour noted a furry animal in a big cave way up on one of the cliffs. The animal was never identified, and it was determined that whatever it was would have been able to climb badassed 5th class to get into the cave, which as of this time, has no routes near it and has most likely never seen a human visit it. Hmmm.
Anyone doubting the existence of Yeti Sasquatch Bigfoot because they have never encountered one, is fortunate. Yes it's true they don't exist, (in our dimension), all the time, ... So even the nay sayers are correct and support the hypothesis.
You know, the Sherpas themselves have many different interpretations of what the yeti is. Under the influence of western tourists, many young ones think it is a biological species. The older ones however, always have thought it was a spirit animal, which sometimes takes on physical form. They are thought to come from the Sambhogokaya, known to New Agers, as the Astral World, an intermediate state existing between humans and Buddhas and Boddhisattvas.
Anyone that thinks that bigfoots/yeti/sasquatch/manbearpig or whatever else not only exists but can exist in another reality has wooked out and eaten way to much L. If a bigfoot existed we would have found bones or a body by now. Think about it, the species would have existed for hundreds out thousands of years by now with a known fossil record. We know about rare species from millions of years go just because we found their bones.
Also, and I think this is the most convincing evidence that bigfoots don't exist, their are biological principles based on species population and extinction. A species has a minimum population it has to maintain otherwise it goes extinct because the species can't reproduce quickly enough to save itself. A large mammal such as a bigfoot would have a large enough population that bigfoot/human encounters would be very frequent. Or maybe I am wrong but I am a skeptic until I see that paper in a reliable journal and a scientific/common name.
Physical evidence for yeti has been examined before. Sir Edmund Hillary found the skin of a Tibetan blue bear in Rolwaling the valley I studied (they do walk upright a fair amount), and he also was able to take the yeti skull from Pangboche Monastery in Khumbu to England for examination and it was found to be the hide of a Tibetan antelope which had been steamed onto a human skull.
If you want to argue spirit animal versus ET, anything's possible. If you're going to argue a physical animal, then you need physical evidence and DNA.
DNA doing weird stuff indicates either contamination or fraud. Any creature capable of mating with a human and creating hybrids would have to be at least as similar as a chimp and probably closer to a neanderthal or denisovan- sapiens mix.
I want to hear how you acquired a yeti bone from Nepal? Gift or purchase? Kathmandu or in the mountains?"
We were wandering around in Nepal, I want to say Rongbuk valley but maybe it was the Machermo Valley: the memory is bad these days, and Natong Sherpa pointed right to a spot and said, that is where XXXXXX was attacked by a Yeti (where XXXXXX is some girls name I do not recall). Right THERE! And he pointed. Then he recounted the story of the attack on the girl and the Zupchucks that had also been killed right there (like a Yak but less hair, most likely misspelled there). He assured us that the story was true, but when asked he replied that other than the girl, no one had seen the Yeti as it was night.
Well, we had not walked far, perhaps the equivalent of a full city block and my little brother looked on the ground and right there pointing said "Oh look, a Yeti Bone". And he picked it up and carried it with him. Where ever we went, if the Sherpas spoke english he recounted that story to them and asked if they wanted to see his Yeti Bone. Most of them just would laugh and were not interested in seeing his Yeti Bone. This was my younger brother, the one who was with me many years before when my older brother and I discovered a new species (when I was a 5th grade graduate - the Red Frog). We didn't keep the red frog as I detailed, but he kept the Yeti Bone.
He still has it. I still have the rug I bought up there as well on a rest day coming down.
It was a Gilligans Island style purchase......a 3 hour cruise....:-) This is what ya do when there's no TV in Nepal.
Hmmm, maybe the Rongbuk valley is the other side in Tibet....That was later, here's a memory from there where I bought some draft horse bells and the kids were shaking them so I'd make horse noises (which is one of my few actual skills).
This is what you do where theres no TV in Tibet I suppose.
Wind sweeps across this lonely stretch of sagebrush, carrying songs and prayers of 10 tribes gathered here, laying ancestral remains to rest.
From both sides of the mountains, they helped bless the bones of 57 individuals wrapped in white cotton muslin tied with cotton string, put away with cedar boughs and tule mats within a hand-dug grave.
Afterward, elder Avery Cleveland of the Confederated Tribes of the Colville Indian Reservation knelt to burn tobacco on the covered grave, sending its smoke and a horse song on the rising wind.
The love and care paid to these remains, blessed and returned to earth, is what tribal leaders say they want to give Kennewick Man. But nearly two decades after one of the oldest and most intact ancient skeletons ever found in North America was accidentally discovered, Kennewick Man, more than 9,500 years old, is still in limbo.
That could be about to change.
Scientists in Copenhagen right now are doing tests using new methods that could for the first time extract some of the skeleton's DNA, perhaps answering the question of the ancient man's ancestry.
Tribes that want the skeleton reburied say they are going to try again within a year to change federal law to repatriate ancient remains, including Kennewick Man's.
And a book that details the findings from years of study of the skeleton should be out, after years of waiting.
The research has urgent relevance. The case for reburial that the tribes lost in court still could be reopened and, depending on findings that emerge, could yet have a very different outcome, including repatriation of the bones to the tribes, said Gail Celmer, regional archaeologist for the Army Corps of Engineers Northwest Division, in Portland.
Scientists oppose reburial, saying there is still so much more to be learned about Kennewick Man, from just where a stone point in his hip came from, to his ancient diet.
At the heart of the matter is whether the remains can be determined to be of Native American origin, as the tribes insist. If so, federal law requires that the bones be returned for reburial by tribes that claim them.
A federal appeals panel in 2004 found the bones too old, and the context of their find too void of archaeological clues, to assign membership genetically or culturally to any modern tribe.
"If there is information ... that indicates he may be Native American, it might cause us to reopen the analysis," the panel wrote.
Tribes fight for reburial
Five Northwest tribes _ Yakama, Colville, Nez Perce, Wanapum and Umatilla _ fought in court for reburial under the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act (NAGPRA).
"We know he will come home to us someday. We never give up," said Rex Buck, spiritual leader of the Wanapum tribe.
The tribes have continued to press their case with the Corps, which controls access to the skeleton because it was found on Corps property. Two boys wading the shallows of the Columbia River in 1996 stumbled upon the skeleton, emerging from the banks near Kennewick, and called the police.
Tribes have fought for repatriation from just about every angle. "We have looked at cemetery laws. We have looked at it as an archaeological collection," Celmer said. "We have talked about underground curation.
"I am not sure we could guarantee that we could keep it stable or protected, but it is a novel idea."
It was Buck who last fall invited Doug Owsley, a physical anthropologist at the Smithsonian Institution's National Museum of Natural History who led the fight in court to study the skeleton, to the Northwest. He did it, Buck said, to hear what Owsley had to say about his research on Kennewick Man so far, and to ask Owsley for his help in getting Kennewick Man back.
Owsley made no such commitment that day. But he did make headlines when he declared Kennewick Man not only isn't an Indian, but that he's not from the mid-Columbia at all.
Residue in Kennewick man's bones showed he ate a lot of food from the marine environment: marine mammals, such as seals, especially, Owsley said in a private gathering with tribal members at Central Washington University.
"They are not what you would expect for someone from the Columbia Valley," he said of isotopes detected in the remains. "You would have to eat salmon 24 hours a day and you would not reach these values.
"This is a man from the coast. Not a man from here. I think he is a coastal man."
Buck told Owsley at the time that while he appreciated the presentation, it lacked a larger picture of how tribal members actually live, then and today.
Lamprey eel could have provided the same types of nutrients, Buck noted. "I hope you would think about some of those things too, and add that to your equation."
It was a gentle reminder of a very different mid-Columbia, teeming with animal life even as recently as some 200 years ago, let alone during the time of Kennewick Man.
A much different Mid-Columbia
When Lewis and Clark explored portions of the Columbia and Snake rivers in 1805 and 1806, they remarked in their journals on their amazement at the multitude of animals, including marine mammals, they saw.
Seals and sea lions — not blocked by dams, as they are today — once cruised nearly 200 miles upriver, all the way to what Lewis and Clark called the Great Falls of the Columbia: Celilo Falls.
Salmon, of course, were so plentiful that settlers later harvested them by the truckload to fertilize cleared land for farming. With 11 runs of salmon pushed to the brink of extinction by eight dams on the lower Columbia and Snake Rivers, today it is easy to forget the abundance of salmon that once fed tribes from the saltwater coast to the inland-most reaches of the Columbia watershed more than 900 miles away, said Bill McMillan, who is researching the historic and prehistoric Columbia River Basin ecosystem for NOAA fisheries. "It's called the shifting baseline syndrome.
"Our vision of what we consider to be abundant is usually from the time period that we have experienced."
As recently as the 1970s, Oregon fisheries managers were dosing headwater streams with Rotenone to kill off Pacific lamprey, an eel known for high nutritional value and harvested by the tribes since the melting of the glaciers.
"Kennewick Man would have feasted on this animal with a higher omega-3 fatty acid content than any marine mammal," said Jay Miller, a Seattle anthropologist who has studied the role of lamprey in tribal cultures, which continues today.
The tribes fighting for the return of Kennewick Man have depended on lamprey for some 10,000 years for its fatty meat.
Living off the land
Kennewick Man likely feasted from an abundant land, too, with something to eat in every season, noted Carl Gustafson, retired professor of archaeology from Washington State University. "It really wouldn't have been a bad world," Gustafson said.
The landscape of Kennewick Man would have looked much the same as today in the Mid-Columbia. Deer, elk and maybe bison would have been around 9,000 to 10,000 years ago, as well as the plants native people still rely on: biscuitroot, bitterroot, balsamroot and all kinds of lomatiums _ wild celery.
Kennewick Man probably would have traveled back and forth over the Cascades for trade, too, as well as for visiting and fun. Mastodon bone rods found in 1987 near Wenatchee at a site dated to 13,800 years ago are believed by tribal members to be carved sticks used to play sla-hal, a gambling game that dates to the tribes' earliest gatherings.
All that traveling, in gathering food, following trade routes and visiting for social and ceremonial gatherings is one reason that, to anthropologist Darby Stapp, of Richland, Owsley's flat declaration that Kennewick Man was from the coast is ridiculous.
"The first time I heard him say that it was like, 'Whoa, where are you coming from with that?' " Stapp said.
"We know more than likely people went back and forth in any scenario, but mostly I don't see why it matters. For me, he could be from the coast, it doesn't matter; obviously he was here, and I doubt it was for the first time, and the community obviously buried him."
More fundamentally, he and others doubted the value of findings coming out of research on the skeleton so far, or in the future.
"It's underwhelming; it's one individual. You are never going to learn a whole lot about a population from one individual," Stapp said.
Peter Lape, an archaeologist at the University of Washington, also questioned Owsley's flat statement that isotopes show Kennewick Man was actually a coastal man.
"Isotopes are very difficult to interpret. There are a lot of issues with calibrating and interpreting them; the best people have many caveats," Lape said. "He just puts it out there. The audacity of that is stunning; he is so arrogant it is amazing."
The information so far coming out of the research has been the equivalent of "celebrity gossip," Lape said. "It's that his right arm is bigger than the other, but that doesn't tell us anything about the past, it doesn't answer those questions, and all these years later we still don't have published results."
The Corps of Engineers lost patience with Owsley in April, reprimanding him in a letter for publishing nothing from his research so far beyond a children's book.
"I find this to be totally unacceptable," wrote Anthony Funkhouser, then brigadier general and Army division commander for the Corps.
"You and your colleagues have not produced anything for scientific journals despite your historic position of the collection's immense value to the scientific community and the general public. That value is only realized when the data and the interpretation of those data are available for scrutiny and discourse."
Owsley said in a telephone interview he is very aware of the need to finish writing up and publish results from the study, adding that his manuscript will be completed this summer for publication perhaps next year.
The manuscript is in more than 30 chapters. He said it took so long because it is "definitive."
"People have not seen this level of analysis before," Owsley said. " It takes the whole topic of ancient Americans to another level."
Asked about the book, he said: "At this point I just want to get it done. I don't want to get into debating."
A member of the community
Meanwhile, tribal elders say that Kennewick Man having been intentionally buried is proof enough he was part of their community.
"In our way, he could be from Samoa, he could be from anywhere," said John Sirois, chairman of the Colville Business Council. "But if he married into one of our tribes and took care of a family and fished with us, in our way, he was part of the community, he was part of the people. It was a matter of 'we are in this together, you are part of this community,' and to this day, that core element is still in place.
"Taking care of a person and making sure they are returned to earth is part of that cycle of life."
Vivian Harrison, NAGPRA coordinator for the Yakama Indian Nation, said that it is painful for the Ancient One's bones to remain unburied.
"Really, to me it's sad," Harrison said. "This is a human being, and in our belief, his journey has been interrupted by leaving the ground. It is disturbing to us. My main question here is when will they be finished? When will they let him go so he can return to the ground and finish his journey?"
Real harm is visited on the community when spirits are disturbed in their rest, said Barbara Friedlander Aripa, a Colville elder. She was one of a group of elders who did a ceremony for the Ancient One on the shore after the discovery.
Murders, car wrecks, shootings, accidents, chaos. In tribal teachings, they come from a world of spiritual unrest, she said. "Return him to the people. We want him put in the ground so his soul can rest."
Attempts to extract and analyze Kennewick Man's DNA from small pieces of bone taken from the skeleton should not be abandoned, said Dennis Stanford, curator of archaeology and director of the paleoecology program for the Smithsonian.
He is a member of the team publishing his research in Owsley's book.
Stanford said he realizes not all of the pieces in Kennewick Man's story are yet adding up.
For instance, he said, while Owsley declared Kennewick Man was from the coast, what then is he doing with a stone point buried in his hip that is associated with the Great Basin or Wenatchee area?
"How do you reconcile that?" Stanford asked. "In order to live on the coast and have that projectile point in him all that time, it doesn't add up that nicely."
But to him, that just shows the need for more analysis. While Stanford said he thinks the point is probably from the Great Basin, it is made of a type of stone that could be from many places.
"What is interesting about it is the entire Pacific Rim has those kinds of rocks," Stanford said. "It could have been from anywhere, like Japan. Or Mexico.
"In the old textbooks, people came from across the Bering Land Bridge, but we now know that boats have been invented more than 40,000 years ago. When you have boats, oceans and rivers are no longer barriers, they are highways."
"He is here for a reason," Stanford said, "and it is up to us to figure out what the reason is. From our point of view, it is up to us to tell his story."
Like Owsley, Stanford said he is looking forward to publication of the book.
"It's going to be the most-discussed skeleton in the world."
Yahoo carried a very interesting news article today on a truly scientific study done by Dr. Bryan Sykes of Oxford University, one of the foremost experts on human DNA and early migrations.
Dr. Sykes sent out a call for all known biological samples taken from yeti and got several hundred. Of those, 70 had usable DNA. All but two were run of the mill Himalayan animals of different species. Two specimens however, from Ladakh and Bhutan respectively, both very remote locations, revealed a brown bear-polar bear hybrid, most closely related to a type of polar bear that lived thousands of years ago and are now extinct. A mixture of white and brown bears could well be the source of the orange color that are reported for yeti.
I've thought for a long time that Reinhold Messner was right about the yeti being a bear, although the yeti skins he saw and the bears he heard were from a different species. It's easy to see however, how all bear-like animals could get labeled yeti,if seen from a distance just as all snakes get labeled poisonous etc.
It's also easy to see how an orangish bear could be confused with orangutangs and the Tibetan story of human origins which was a mating between a female ogre and a monkey in a cave in eastern Tibet.
Dr. Sykes is doing further research which should clarify the situation even more and the fact that he was able to identify DNA from 70 specimens makes the American vetinarian's attempts at identifying DNA from a purported bigfoot, even more suspect although a polar bear-brown bear hybrid could certainly have migrated across the Bering Strait.
America Unearthed had an interesting segment about Kennewick Man and the probability that he was Polynesian. The show title is about a spearhead found in Maui (it does feature a great NPS tooling story), but a big chunk of the show is about Kennewick Man.
Scientists believe they have discovered a new group of giant apes in the jungles of central Africa.
The animals, with characteristics of both gorillas and chimpanzees, have been sighted in the north of the Democratic Republic of Congo.
According to local villagers, the apes are ferocious, and even capable of killing lions.
A report about the mysterious creatures is published in this week's edition of the UK magazine New Scientist.
If they are a new species of primate, it could be one of the most important wildlife discoveries in decades.
The discovery of these apes "reveals just how much we still have to learn about our closest living relatives," New Scientist says.
'NEW' GIANT APE
Large, black faces (like gorillas)
Up to two metres tall (6.5ft)
Weigh 85kg-102kg (187lb-224lb)
Males make nests on the ground (like gorillas)
Diet rich in fruit (like chimps)
They stand up to two metres tall, the size of gorillas, and like gorillas, they nest on the ground, not in trees.
But they live hundreds of km away from any other known gorilla populations, and their diet is closer to that of chimpanzees.
Primatologist Shelly Williams is thought to be the only scientist to have seen the apes.
During her visit to DR Congo two years ago, she says she captured them on video and located their nests.
She describes her encounter with them: "Four suddenly came rushing out of the bush towards me," she told New Scientist.
"If this had been a bluff charge, they would have been screaming to intimidate us. These guys were quiet. And they were huge. They were coming in for the kill. I was directly in front of them, and as soon as they saw my face, they stopped and disappeared."
The discovery has baffled scientists. There are three controversial possibilities to explain the origin of the mystery apes:
They are a new species of ape
They are giant chimpanzees, much larger than any so far recorded, but behave like gorillas
They could be hybrids, the product of gorillas mating with chimpanzees.
So far, researchers have little to go on, but they now plan to return to northern DR Congo to study the apes further.
In the meantime, there are fears that unless measures are taken to protect them, poaching could threaten this new group of primates before the mystery of their identity is resolved.
"This is a lawless area," says Kenyan-based Swiss photographer Karl Ammann, who tipped Ms Williams off about the apes.
"The government has practically no control over hunting. If we found something interesting it would attract more investment. People would be more interested in conserving it."
I'll bet I've seen more of the Yosemite backcountry than 98% of the folks here, and I have seen every mammal likely there except wolverine. No bigfoot, or any hunch of one, ever. On the ground during grid searches, we found a lot of interesting things, but never any sign. I seriously ground truthed the place for well over a decade, low and high, north and south, east and west, and in between; not a trace. And, I looked, listened, smelled and sensed. I'm disappointed and sorry; nothing ever. Same with my many other ramblings from Mt Brewer to Mt Rose. Not there.
The mysterious Kennewick Man, who died 9,000 years ago in the Columbia River Valley, was a seal hunter who rambled far and wide with a projectile point lodged in his hip, five broken ribs that never healed properly, two small dents in his skull and a bum shoulder from the repetitive stress of throwing spears.
He came from somewhere far away, far up the Pacific Northwest coast, possibly Alaska or the Aleutian Islands. He might even have come to North America all the way from Asia.
That’s the argument of the editors of a new, 688-page, peer-reviewed book, “Kennewick Man: The Scientific Investigation of an Ancient American Skeleton,” that will be published this fall by Texas A&M University Press.
Scientists have told their story of Kennewick Man before in lectures and interviews, but the new book represents the most detailed account of research that came about only after scientists sued for access to the bones. The Army of Corps of Engineers, which has custody of the bones, had pressed the scientists to publish their research. Now it has finally arrived, in a volume as thick and heavy as a textbook.
“Kennewick Man could not have been a longtime resident of the area where he was found, but instead lived most of his adult life somewhere along the Northwest and North Pacific coast where marine mammals were readily available,” the concluding chapter of the book states.
“He could have been an Asian,” said co-editor Richard Jantz, emeritus professor of anthropology at the University of Tennessee. “One of the things we always tend to do is underestimate the mobility of early people.”
His co-editor, Douglas Owsley, a forensic anthropologist at the Smithsonian’s National Museum of Natural History, agrees with that assessment of Kennewick Man: “He was a long-distance traveler.”
The book includes many kinds of research on the skeleton, which was discovered in 1996, and its environment, but the chemical analysis of the molecular isotopes in the bones and the clues they provide to Kennewick Man’s originare likely to be among the most heavily debated findings.
The analysis suggests that Kennewick Man lived off a diet of seals and other large marine mammals and drank glacier-melt water. His wide-set body is akin to what is generally seen in cold-adapted human populations. The book includes a vintage photograph of an Inuit seal hunter on an ice floe in Alaska — a suggested analog to Kennewick Man’s lifestyle.
The origin of Kennewick Man is relevant to the future disposition of his bones. Native American tribes have claimed him as one of their ancestors and have sought to rebury the remains in keeping with their customs. The scientists argued that there is no evidence linking any of today’s tribes to the skeleton.
They say that Kennewick Man’s skull, which is large and narrow with a projecting face, doesn’t look like the skulls of later Native Americans. This has been noted in other skulls from that era, including that of a teenage girl found in a submerged cave in Mexico, and the skull of a man found in the Channel Islands off the coast of California.
The dimensions of Kennewick Man’s skull most closely match those of Polynesians, specifically the inhabitants of the Chatham Islands, near New Zealand, the scientists say.
He wasn’t himself a Polynesian, however. Rather, according to the scientists, Kennewick Man and today’s Polynesians, as well as the prehistoric Jomon people and contemporary Ainu people of northern Japan, have a common ancestry among a coastal Asian population.
These were hunters of marine creatures and could have followed the edge of the ice around the northern rim of the Pacific Ocean, harvesting seals and using primitive watercraft to travel long distances, Owsley said.
“This is like a highway,” Owsley said of the coastal route of migration. “People are going from the Old World to the New World and back and forth.”
He said of Kennewick Man, “His morphology is what people look like in the Upper Paleolithic period along that whole circ#m-Pacific expanse.”
The heft of the volume and the confidence of Owsley and his co-authors in their interpretation of Kennewick Man is unlikely to end debate over who this ancient person was and how he was related to other Paleoamericans and Native Americans alive today.
The Corps of Engineers has legal custody of the skeleton because it was found on federal land. The Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act requires that unearthed bones be returned to tribes for reburial. But scientists sued to gain access to the bones, and a federal court in 2004 ruled in their favor, saying NAGPRA did not apply to Kennewick Man. Owsley said the scientists were allowed to study the bones for 16 days in 2005 and 2006.
Gail Celmer, a regional archeologist with the northwest division of the Corps of Engineers, said the corps will review the book and “see if there’s anything in there that changes how we’re curating the remains.”
She said she doubted it would end the debate over the bones.
“I don’t think it will ever settle the debate. People have different views about what NAGPRA actually is and how it’s defined.”
Two teenagers sneaking into a boat race originally saw the bones and notified authorities. The local coroner asked for assistance from a forensic anthropologist, James Chatters, who at first thought, based on the shape of the skull, that he was looking at the remains of an early pioneer. But tests on the spear point indicated that these were prehistoric remains.
Chatters excavated more than 300 bones, making Kennewick Man one of the most complete skeletons from that era.
In the legal fight, the scientists won the right to do a limited amount of research, starting in 2005, but until now they have not presented their full findings.
Three of the papers list Chatters as an author, but he does not sign on to the view that Kennewick Man came from somewhere far away.
“If he’s an eater of seals, he’s in the wrong position,” Chatters said. He said Kennewick Man is more than 100 miles from the nearest seal.
He also believes the spear point in his hip comes from somewhere not too far away.
“It’s a serrated edge, leaf-shaped point, of a style known as a Cascade point,” Chatters said.
Owsley said he and Chatters have agreed to disagree on some of these issues.
The ramblin’ man hypothesis will be viewed as a boost for the controversial idea that the Americas were peopled in multiple migrations by disparate populations — some moving on foot, some rowing or paddling along the coast.
The more orthodox view is that people from northeast Asia walked to the Americas during the Ice Age when sea levels were so low that the Bering Strait was dry land. Genetic evidence points to a common ancestry among Native Americans to a population that remained isolated for a long period of time in the now-drowned land known as Beringia, and that then migrated, possibly in several pulses, after the ice sheets covering much of North America began to recede and an ice-free corridor opened in the center of the continent.
Deborah A. Bolnick, an anthropological geneticist at the University of Texas, said that all Native Americans studied so far show markers, in their mitochondrial DNA, of a common ancestry with people who lived in Beringia. She said it is therefore reasonable to suppose that Kennewick Man is also descended from that population.
Genetic testing on Kennewick Man is being conducted in Denmark, and those results are eagerly awaited and could alter the scientific narrative yet again.
One issue that remains fuzzy is Kennewick Man’s age at his death. Owsley said he appeared to be about 40, but further testing, if permitted, would help pin that down. He argues that scientists should have further access to the skeleton, which for now is held in the Burke Museum at the University of Washington.
“I’m trying to honestly ensure that another generation of scientists has the opportunity to study this skeleton. They’re going to have technology that we don’t have,” Owsley said in an interview.
And there will always be additional questions. Did he have a mate? Children? A clan?
Chatters said he probably lived in a band of 20 to 40 people.
And he surely was a strong man, able to endure pain from myriad injuries and the challenges of life as a hunter, Chatters said. His survival from a serious injury — the embedded spear point in hip — seems to suggest something.
“He was injured severely enough when he was young that somebody took very good care of him,” Chatters said.
Was't kenniwick man @ 5' tall? Not bigfoot. Wrong thread for that article, but I thank you for posting it. I thought this was a striking sentence from your article:
"The dimensions of Kennewick Man’s skull most closely match those of Polynesians, specifically the inhabitants of the Chatham Islands, near New Zealand, the scientists say.
He wasn’t himself a Polynesian, however. Rather, according to the scientists, Kennewick Man and today’s Polynesians, as well as the prehistoric Jomon people and contemporary Ainu people of northern Japan, have a common ancestry among a coastal Asian population."
Yes, thank you for the Kennewick posts and the latest up to date information.
Kennewick man entered this discussion because there was speculation that some of the Big Foot stories originated with different types of humans visiting the Pacific Northwest. Now a Viking boat has been discovered outside of Memphis and it has been revealed that both Choctaw and Chickasaw Indians have legends about fighting red giants. Perhaps they made it to the Pacific Northwest as well.
I would add that the September issue of Scientific American has a whole issue on human evolution which takes into consideration other ancient primates also.
As for Big Foot and the Yeti, Bryan Sykes of Oxford University has conducted DNA studies on samples off all the Big Foot and Yeti remains he could find and they were of several different animals, but mostly a previously unknown Asian bear which is a hybrid of extinct brown bears and polar bears which could certainly explain the reddish fur.
He has also recently done a study of a tall woman with reddish fur all over her body who was found in Russia in 1850 and had several children by Russian men. He says her DNA is sapiens originally from South Africa. Now the question is whether she was a mutant or represents an unknown population. So stay tuned, we are slowly finding out the truth and it is more complex and interesting than we could imagine.
would you agree that if there was a "Bigfoot" that she/he would have to exist (as other animals do) within a population of it's own kind? In other words, there would be young ones, adults, old bigfeet close to death, pregnant females, reckless teenagers. Although an individual might be able to hide and avoid detection, a population would (sooner or later) be detected. An older Bigfoot with Alzheimer might have a difficult time hiding? Sooner or later we would have to find some remains?
Populations would certainly have been necessary in the past, but if we are looking at just a few surviving individuals in the present, then that could explain rarity of sitings. There were multigenerational groups of undiscovered runaway slaves who hid out in the Great Dismal Swamp bordering Virginia and North Carolina until after the Civil War. Then there's Ishi, the last Yahi Indian who was captured near Oroville, California as late as 1911.
I am also thinking of my Sherpa village of Rolwaling which had numerous yeti sitings in the past but none for some years now. I personally think they were seeing the hybrid bears which occasionally crossed over from uninhabited areas of Tibet. I believe they are no longer seen because the Chinese patrols on that side have pretty much eliminated the wildlife in the past 60 years.
If there are populations, the heavily forested mountains of eastern Nepal and especially the Assam area of India would be the place to look as well as western Burma and southwestern China. The tropical rain forest is impenetrable to modern humans in some of those areas still.
Keep in mind also, that in the remote regions where they are reported, human populations are scarce and the people are pre-scientific. They are afraid of these animals which many believe to be shape shifting spirits, and so they are not looking for bones or scat as modern scientists would. If they saw any they would run away as fast as they could.
And of course scared to death humans often exaggerate what they saw. One yeti that threw rocks at people in southwestern China was tracked down by Chinese scientists and found to be a golden macaque - a 3 foot high monkey that had been described as 6 ft. high by those it threw rocks at.
Thank-you for your thought provoking response.
Also, your up-thread comment about human evolution: "we are slowly finding out the truth and it is more complex and interesting than we could imagine" certainly rings true. The more I read about the fascinating story of how we got here (and especially the recent scientific discoveries) I've become more interested to learn.
Healyje - I had a discussion with Dr. Jeff Meldrum (he is a Full Professor of Anatomy and Anthropology and a Professor of the Department of Anthropology at Idaho State University) about minimal viable population.